Chilluminati Podcast - Episode 248 - The Zodiac Killer - A Great American Rabbit Hole Part 4

Episode Date: April 28, 2024

Alex, Jesse and Mike reach the end of their Zodiac Killer Mega Series. Did someone actually figure out who did it? MERCH - http://www.theyetee.com/collections/chilluminati Special thanks to our sponsors this episode - All you lovely people at HTTP://PATREON.COM/CHILLUMINATIPOD Jesse Cox - http://www.youtube.com/jessecox Alex Faciane - http://www.youtube.com/user/superbeardbros Editor - DeanCutty http://www.twitter.com/deancutty Art Commissioned by - http://www.mollyheadycarroll.com Theme - Matt Proft

Hello everybody and welcome back to the Chiluminati Podcast episode 248. As always, I'm one of your hosts, Mike Martin, joined by the, uh, by forget me not and ugly John of LA, Jesse and Alex. I don't even know what that means. I don't want to be ugly John. I love the idea of being ugly John, but I have no idea who the fuck he is. Yeah. I don't want to be ugly. John. I love the idea of being ugly. John, but I have no idea who the fuck he is. Yeah. I don't know what any of these things are the prospect of being ugly. John, give me that sex. All right. Let me, let me give you,

I'll give you a little history. Forgive me. Not sounds even worse. Like you're just either a killer or you're so forgettable that you have to beg people not to forget you. Uh, here, ugly John, ugly John was a mutant with three faces who was saved from a sentinel in Sydney by Wolverine and Cyclops. Later ugly John was captured by the wild Sentinels under the command of Donald Trask the third and Cassandra Nova. He was then critically injured by wild Sentinels and killed by Cyclops to end his suffering. He sounds like a featured extra. I'll give you a pick. I'll give you the but instead of instead of being spelled with an E,

I think in this case extra is spelled just with the X. Yeah. Yeah. That's very on brand. I think calling him ugly John is kind of rude. Honestly, he just looks like normal John, but he has three faces. That's all. Mutants choose their own name. normal John, but he has three faces. That's all. Mutants choose their own name. Well, I, okay. Yes. I know who this is now.

He, he was a great, there was a great, uh, issue of, I think it was X factor where his partner doesn't know that he has a partner. And it's like a police deal. 50 first dates. And they keep trying to just convince him that he has a partner. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's a good bit. What a shitty, unfortunate power to be born with. What an unfortunate mutation. No way, dude. You could get away with anything. That's a villain power. It's the very premise. It's the, it's,

it's the main premise of a key doctor who villain. That's very true. So there you go. I can't remember. I can't remember what I can't remember. I can't remember which one it is. I call it mr. Forgetter Forgotten, whoo. That's very doctor who they're called the silence actually Yeah, oh, yeah, mine's better I know we got a you know, you got to do your thing Alex But just did you guys I know we got to talk also about that last week tonight to the UAP segment and it was fucking Phenomenal first of all, I want to say that the snake bit

was fucking hilarious. Yeah, yeah, it was really good. Loved that and it is exactly the problem with the discourse around UFOs. But as we just said before we started recording, this is very similar to a lot of the stuff that's been happening like the grush situation and a couple other things, where yes, we're seeing stuff get kicked higher up

the flagpole now in not just an official sense, but like a media sense, like this is very mainstream. This is extremely well researched. Like how the deepest a mainstream show has ever gone on the UAP subject. A hundred percent and the mainest stream. Like there's no, this is a comedy show. You know what I mean?

This is not the news. Millions of people see this. Yeah. But I mean, it's not the news. You know what I mean? This is like something that somebody chose to cover for its entertainment value because everybody knows about it and wants to know more. So that's exciting.

That said, other than just legitimizing a bunch of people that we already know we're basically legitimate already and repeating a bunch of people that we already know were basically legitimate already and repeating a bunch of the same points that we've already read about and seen, there's not much new here, except that it's fucking hilarious. If you're a regular consumer of Chuluminati, everything you heard in there was probably old news to you. Softball, yeah. But for your friend, Gary, he might never heard of it before.

And for him, this is probably his first beyond the fact of like Grush and then whatever weird articles about Grush that came out around that time. And that's about it really. That's like the best point to make about this, honestly, is that most people, especially younger people, get news from comedy sources. It's easier to take. And so to have this show up in a show like this, uh, does a lot for visibility. It does nothing to afford the actual agenda of like determining

what's real and what's not and what people know. But it does put the information out there to more people more than we could do or someone on like CNN could do. And it gives the idea more political power to and it erodes the, like the barrier of like, like, uh,. And it gives the idea more political power too. And it erodes the barrier of like, the comedy around it, like how he showed the governor who brought on the alien and stuff.

I think it does forward making it less taboo to talk about and hopefully research scientifically. Yeah, I mean, I think, I finished watching it and I felt like like pride. Is that weird? I felt heard. Yeah. Yeah. Is that weird? Like for a moment. I'm like, I'm not crazy At least not about this well, and again, I think the the thing about comedy is the old saying about truth, you know, and so being able to

if you can laugh at something and have that bias in the ethos, it does wonders for it in a way that like- Digest it. John Good Smith, who is a ufologist or whatever could ever do, you know? Right, yeah, exactly. Like it actually makes it more,

it's in the zeitgeist for real. Yeah, we can talk about it and laugh, but also be like, it could be real though. Yeah, there's not much someone like myself can do behind a microphone who is obsessed with aliens from a young age that can convince anybody else out there, but taking somebody who knows nothing about it and then being like, oh, hey, this is something here,

it's worth something. Yeah, exactly. Sure. Hey, this is Alex. I am back with you. Welcome to the fourth and final episode of our three-part Zodiac series, Zodiac, The Great American Rabbit Hole.

Makes total sense. It does make sense. It does not make sense. It does, okay. Yes, it does. Okay, let me break it down for you guys since you guys have seemed to have never read a book before. The fact that you have to break it down?

No, I don't need a review. I'm not gonna let you continue yet because not just me, I had to clarify for somebody on Reddit who thought because of the way you put the two first two episodes, it was going to be six episodes and I had to be like, no, it's actually four episodes. So it's not just us. I can't, I can't account for anybody reading the fucking tea leaves of our show, like a Nintendo press conference to try and figure out how many episodes I'm going to

have. But I'll tell you this, have you ever read a book that has chapters in it? Okay. And usually those chapters go in order 12345678910, right? You know, like chapters go. Yeah, yes. Doesn't typically end with chapter one will continue next book. Okay, now, when you read a book, okay. And then you start the book. Hold on. You start the book in part one and part one is six chapters long. Okay. Then

part two happens and it's three chapters long and then part three happens and it's one chapter long. Nobody has any fucking problem figuring out the difference between a part and a chapter. Because we don't have the luxury of a blank piece of paper between each part. We're doing a show. We're doing a show that's already numbered. I labeled by you numbering a multi-part. I titled and labeled the shows perfectly. I titled and labeled the shows perfectly.

And because I keep it vague, whether I'm joking or telling the truth, nobody ever really quite takes what I say seriously. I think you keep it vague because you don't want to be judged for your madness. I keep it, there's no vagary here. You have an out because like I'm just playing, I'm just playing vague over here. I'll leave it up to the weekly poll I put on Spotify. I'll put it up. Is Alex insane for the way he does this?

Is Alex actually the Chodiak? I need to bring this up. There is no Chodiak. You don't know anything. Is he the Chodiak? I was trying to help you guys. Anyway, part three of our show, episode four. It sounds crazy. You can't say part three, episode four. Has Alex ever done a more than like two parter where it hasn't been numbered fucking insane? Episode four, episode four, part three. How does anyone look this up on Google? Jesse, Jesse, Jesse, I gotta remind you, this is also part of an eight numbered series. You're right!

What else are you doing, dude? It's like six layers deep! This is what's wrong with the conspiracy community. Right here, just summed up perfectly. This is it, this is it. No, I am just a genius. This is called episode four, part three, the sixth phantom. Okay?

Yeah, and you numbered your phantoms as well. That's right, there's phantom numbers as well. I need to, I'm like, that fucking meme of that woman with the numbers going by her, she's just fucking trying to do math. Oh my God. I am killing it. Last time we took a second look at the specifics of the Zodiac case through the lens of confirmed

information, modern mindsets, updated facts, and the journalistic viewpoint of a man called Jared Kovec through his first book on Zodiac, which is called Motor Spirit, which you should buy however you can. And you should read it immediately because it is very good. And it is, I'd say the book I read it is a wait, wait, sorry, talk about last week's one, not the book I read. Yeah, no, yeah, I would say even between that book, like the book that math has read is like, probably the book on Zodiac, it's called Zodiac.

But as I pointed out last week, it goes a long way towards framing this story in a way that might not be accurate or helpful to actually solving the crime. Motor Spirit covers the same ground as the other book, but just does so with a much more objective point of view and speculates a little more instead which I appreciate because it comes from the perspective of somebody who's doing

a lot of research and connecting the dots rather than lying about where things are leading them, if that makes sense. We also talked about the five phantoms of Cordelia that make up the bigger picture of whoever it is behind these killings and the different ways people have thought of this person over the years and the cultural phenomenon he became without ever being caught and the addictive way that reading information about this guy can end up being the only thing that you do with your life. And I think that that is like just as important to the story of Zodiac and why he's important and why he deserves

to be covered on the show as the crimes and the weird letters that he wrote. I think just the way that he captured everybody's imagination and changed culture is pretty crazy for a guy who killed a couple people. And another thing that's crazy about that. We talked about it last week though, the media, it's the people's obsession with true crime

while it was happening. The media didn't care so much about the reality of everything and more about how can we get more people to watch? Can we get the Zodiac to call in? Can we do all these things that are just giving him more of a limelight? Because they're excited, right? Because I was listening to a, and I'll get into this more later, but I was listening to the grandson of the person

that I'm talking about today, talking about the Zodiac killer. And he was kind of admiring him in a way. He was like, you know, being very careful to say, you know, obviously not the killing part, but in a way he admired him because he's like the first social media star. All right. I mean, I guess that's a way to look at it. Yeah. That's a, that's a, that's a very pleasant way to put some sort of title on somebody who was inherently mediocre at what he did. He just killed people. I look, I'm not trying to jump on that guy's train. I don't think this guy deserves praise. Oh, no, yeah. Not that train. No, I jumped right

back off that train. Sorry. Wrong track. But yeah, I don't think the guy deserves praise, but I think like, I think there is something important about Zodiac in American culture. I think he really, like as much as something like Charles Manson or something like that, Zodiac is kind of in there. Sure, yeah, I mean, he certainly has like, had an undeniable effect on it.

Yeah. It just wasn't a solo thing. It was very much because of the way our media treated him. It's crazy, he's a uniquely American killer because he used fucking branding and the media, which is like the most American way to be a fucking serial killer that I can think of. So that's, that's, that's my little take on this. Uh, I don't necessarily agree with the grandson of our guy today, but yeah.

So before we get into that, as Jesse so kindly pointed out earlier, this Zodiac series is part five of a larger eight part series of episodes I'm doing this year, culminating in something called episode H8. This is supposed to give it the air of mystery. That's supposed to make you go, what is episode H8? You should be wondering that. That just makes it more confusing.

Yeah, no, I'm asking the same, I'm asking that question. What is any of this? Yeah. Exactly. And that's so good. And, and, uh, to help you solve that mystery, here are eight keywords, uh, associated with each of the eight episodes. Let me ask you a question really quickly. Will you please for the record associate, you said hidden. What was that associated with? But tell Institute UFOs is that one episode that

you hated that had sent till on. Nope. That's true. You haven't even finished going through that episode yet. Right. Okay. What else? Heavyweights was the WWE episode. Mr. He's from the WWE horse was the Denver airport. Okay. Yep. Big, big blue penis man.

Yeah. Head was our three parter on dreams with a surprise third part featuring Pat Contri. Yep. Yep. And today's episode is Hello, which is about the Zodiac Killer. Three more to go. We'll be done in 2026. We're working our way through. Five are already done. How dare you? How dare you? How long ago was the first one? Yeah, what was the first stage? Think about that. There may have been other things that happened in my life that perhaps Slow down the progress of this but there's a big stuff happen in the summer as well So I'm just saying, you know, like yeah things are happening in everyone's life, dude

Everyone has a life man You guys are gonna realize what I'm talking about a second and then you're gonna go Oh and then So then the ones that haven't come out yet are huge him again and hero I Bet you'll never guess what those are hinting at huge yet are huge, him again, and hero. I bet you'll never guess what those are hinting at. Huge, him again, and hero. I'll tell you something. Some people have been right about more than one of these.

Is that weird? Yes. That's tight. Must be, must be, they must be interested. Do you ever think about that? Or equally weird. I must be doing something amazing. You know, I, I, yeah, that's a takeaway, I guess. We had another live show so I could meet some of the people who are like, no, I was, I was with him because I am,

we already did that. Remember when they all showed up and they all had vampire teeth in and it blinded you with the brightness of its glow. I don't remember that part. When you're on stage and you went, and you went, oh, and when you looked back up, your eyes didn't have, uh, uh, pupils on them anymore. They were just like white and you just were like, kind of like, you could like see the future. No, it doesn't ring a bell. That's all right. Today we received another letter for you guys to read. Uh, so instead of doing a promotional segment, uh, we'll just have Mathis read this. We're sure yeah, no problem. We found in the mailroom. Weirdly, it was just addressed to Chaluminati. That's all it said. I like I still

am kind of mad that I was never informed. We had a mail room until recently. I'm finding out rapidly that there's a lot of things that I don't know about the Chaluminati. Well, it was surprising to discover we didn't create them. They existed before us. Yeah, that that's shock. That's a shock to me. That's how it always goes with stuff like this. That's true. All right. On a stump by a river, a little Alex tit saying Shiloh tit, Shiloh tit, Shiloh. And math has said to him, Dickie boy, why do you sit singing Shiloh tit, Shiloh tit, Shiloh. I don't know what song is supposed to be. I apologize. Is it weakness or intellect? Jesse cried or a rather tough episode in your hairy inside

with a shake of his hairy ass head. He replied. Oh, Shiloh tit Shiloh tit Shiloh. He slapped at his chest as he sat down on that stump singing Shiloh tit Shiloh tit Shiloh. But when I looked again, it seemed more like a bump. Oh, Shiloh tit Shiloh tit Shiloh. But when I looked again, it seemed more like a bump. Oh, Shiloh, tit Shiloh, tit Shiloh. Yet he sobbed and he sighed over something quite odd, a deal with the devil on the quest to see God at patreon.com slash Chaluminati pod. Oh, Shiloh, tit Shiloh, tit Shiloh. Now I feel just as sure as I'm sure that your name isn't Shilo, Tid, Shilo, Tid, Shilo.

That was the need for support that made him proclaim, Oh, Shilo, Tid, Shilo, Tid, Shilo. And if you remain slow and unbrained, you shall perish as he did. And you will not know why, for I certainly will not exclaim as you die. Oh, Shilo, Tid, Shilo, Tid, Shilo. I just, I'm going to extend this to Dean and there's not a better than zero chance he as you die, oh, Shiloh tit Shiloh tit Shiloh. I just, I'm going to send this to Dean and there's not a better than zero chance. He actually does a song with it. It's a song. We need to first off, not do that because that's terrible.

And more importantly, we need to stop letting Alex have full control of episodes. What are you talking about? It's the exact same vibe as letting Mathis choose movie. No, it's not. It's off the rails already. I deliver the most engaging, interesting stories you can imagine. And I deliver our audience the most engaging, hilarious content at the sake of our sanity that I can possibly do. I feel like the last part's the part you're just skipping over.

You're both just skipping over the last part. Maybe we got a living to make. who cares about how we're feeling afterward. Our brain is least important. I care. Can I pay my rent and eat food today? That I'm a happy boy. If you're worried about how I'm feeling, I want you to know that I'm living my absolute I was not actually what I was.

Okay. All right. I couldn't be living a better life than I am right now, making episodes just like this. Also, there's another cipher on the next page of this letter. It's like so weird. I don't know what's going on with these ciphers, but to be honest, I think that the Chodiak probably just had a rough week and used the same Photoshop file again that we used last time instead of making a new one.

So instead of going through the rigmarole of sending it to you, I'm just gonna make sure that Dean uploads it for you guys by the time the episode goes live on Reddit at Arch Illuminati Pod like he did last week. I sent it to Dean, he immediately replied, Jesus Christ, Alex. Look.

That was his response to the music. I'm not, this has nothing to do with me. I, we received a letter in the mail and I had you read. Right, right. I have you read a letter in the mail and I had you read, I have you read a lot of things out of the paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry. The blame should not be put on your feet, should be put on your feet.

Right, that'd be stupid to put the blame on Alex. If you wanna try and figure out what the hell is going on, r slash Illuminati pod, we're gonna put this whole craziness to rest. It's actually getting kind of creepy, I think. But I wonder what it all means. Don't you guys wonder what it all means? What is it leading to? Yeah, what could any of this and there's there's somebody shout out

I don't know about her nose right name, but there's somebody on the subreddit who like cracks her ciphers very quickly Oh, or says it does zodiacs ciphers very quickly. I was gonna say sorry. Sorry. I don't make ciphers also Just so you know as of this recording, I don't think anyone was able to fully solve the last one Oh, so, you know, I'll say this, it was a huge cipher, but they're probably on the right track. They just probably got their brains scrambled up. I need to come back. Yeah. Look, I don't the fact that he did a thing visually on a podcast, I said it's a huge cipher and they're probably scrambled up. on a podcast. I said it's a huge cipher and they're probably scrambled up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's huge and they're probably scrambled up. Anyway, lastly, I just want to say as a disclaimer that I'm a comedian who's telling you about some stuff I read

online in a comedic, casual manner. That's what we are doing. The best part about being a comedian is anyone can say they're comedian. They're not necessarily wrong. Yeah, and then you get away with lying to people. That's not true. I am very, very funny. I am not an expert on this case and has certain look at look, look, look, look at him. Look at them laugh at me. Yep. It has certainly been covered thoroughly and more appropriately and expensively produced elsewhere on better research shows than this one with actual teams of you know with access to things that we as lame people don't have access to but this is our take on it we do take pride in the research we do and i want to give a special thanks to diana who you can say what's up to on twitter at diana writes inc like d e a n n a for all her incredible help in

putting this together with us i assure you any mistakes we make were unintentional not for lack of trying. I was just talking with Mathis earlier about how on these big like often reported on and often like research cases, facts just don't agree with each other almost ever. It's a nightmare. Sometimes they're close enough where you can be like, well, okay, but it's just yeah, it's chaos. I always know the inconsistencies and I do my best to go with the one that makes the most sense. Yeah. Not the one that works for me, but the one that makes the most sense at being real from where it came from. Like a police report obviously will like supersede

something from the nineties or, and so on and so forth. Uh, but, uh, yeah, we're not trying to make mistakes. We're really trying to not make mistakes. Also, this is a series about a real murderer kill people in violent ways. We're not gonna be letting up on that aspect of the case. This one is kind of violence light, I would say, but just in case, please deposit your children in the children holding pen, your children.

I must stress, this is part four of a three part series. Of an eight part. And we have now spent 22 minutes preempting the entire thing with like, if you haven't seen it before, you haven't heard us. We just, like, what are we doing? What is this show? This is five sentences long and you guys are just,

you guys just want to talk about how much fun you're having while you're having the fun. And I can't stop you from doing that. The real episode. You are right now you are active. Put your kids in the child holding pen. You're the entrance of the show. You're going to be reunited with your precious progeny at the end of the show. Sorry for being insensitive. Sometimes we mean no harm. We're trying to make the best version of my show possible. Thanks for listening. Uh, just like last week, we're going to follow Deanna's outline. Uh, she's going to be taking the wheel as we go through this info in the chronological order that we're going to be going in. But real talk,

the book that we're talking about today actually convinced me this man with the zodiac killer. I got a lot of feelings and thoughts about this guy, just as I'm sure you too, will as we go through this, because it's going to start piquing your interest. And we're pretty sure we covered it on a mini-series at some point. So if you're on the Patreon, you probably heard about this a little bit. Yeah. The Twitter thread that we closed the episode with last week, I believe that either you, Jesse, or I brought this as a mini-sode topic like in 2022.

Pretty sure it was you, but you and I talked about it. It had to be one of the three of us. Yeah, it was one of us. It had to be any of the three of us. I'm pretty sure it was either you, Jesse, or I. I mean, it had to be one of us. I remember talking to Jesse about it at a restaurant. So that's why I think it might have been Jesse.

It could have been a convention-like thing. But anyway, we ended it with that Twitter thread last time. And this book is called How to Find Zodiacs by Jarrett Kovac, just like the last book. I don't know why nobody decided to write a guide about how to find him earlier. Actually, sort of a point to that where you are being kind of told what's the right way to hunt for Zodiac.

And I do think that we're going to get there today actually. And like I said, we read this last week, we finger a previously unknown suspect called Paul Doerr as the Zodiac killer in this. But before we get into him, I just want to take a look at what took him from finishing his previous book into writing an entirely second unplanned book, which starts with a moment in March 2021 where he Googled fanzines Vallejo. So he Googled the phrase fanzines Vallejo. I'm going to get into what that means and why he did. You all had a fanzine before.

We have. I just I certainly have because I'm an older man, like the rest of us here on this set amongst celebrities. No, for your own. I mean, of like of your own from your other like other properties and other properties, other things you guys work on. Yeah. Scary Games Squad had one for sure. Yeah. But this is actually more of like.

The 60s and 70s version. Yeah, no, like, yeah, I got fanzines, which fanzines are amateur magazines made by fans for fans. So in the case of the ones that we did, right, like we kind of like made them look really beautiful and we're kind of like a special event that we were a part of. But people like us didn't exist back then. And these could be about anything people could think of, like the one Kovac primarily focused on in this case. There's one about the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings that that Paul Doerr made that's called Hobitalia. And actually, a couple of them are about that. But they're actually still widely made today. You can still find them anywhere, but mostly they're online for

the most part these days just because like the idea of printing and shipping little piece of paper to people. Because these would always be made just like with staples or like just by folding the paper and sending it in an envelope. And then the copying is really shitty. It's done with a ditto machine or something older than that. The pictures, you always know what those black and white pictures look like when they take a photograph and then it's from a textbook and then they Xerox the textbook and then it just looks like black ink globs and it just looks like shit. So that's the vibe we're talking about. Nothing more nothing more than that usually like and this is the 60s

and 70s we're talking about so the technology for home printing is very expensive and it's like very not that great still so that's kind of where we're at that's kind of where we're at like this is the direct descendant or like antecedent I guess of what we do today like literally what we do where we talk about things that other people are fans of and we're like basically famous fans of shit as youtubers as gaming youtubers like we're kind of like famous fans of shit yeah that's kind of like I mean isn't that kind of what critics are? No. like movie critics and stuff.

Critics are are talking about Nothing. We're critics. I'm just saying like, I'm trying to think of another like, analogous. Thanks. Yeah, critics are are apparently using like a certain viewpoint and intellect to sort of like, contextualize something in a larger body. Oh, cool. I wish I was intellectual, like a critic. What I mean, you can write a review, but you're not necessarily just a critic. You sometimes just play the game or speculate on the lore. My point is with these fanzines is that the fanzine itself is like a

YouTuber. It's like a channel. Within it, you get fan mail, you get fan fiction, and depending on what the thing is, people are contributors for various reasons. Sometimes there's themed want ads. Like Jesse, we're talking about in our other podcast, Star Wars, Old Canon Book Club, where we've been reading old issues of the Star star wars insider and they're talking about collecting star wars stuff in the like sparse years between the movies where they're like, kind of like nothing new is coming out and they're like, how do we get to buy star wars merch? And they're like, just put a fucking classified like want ads in your thing and send it out. And like, that's how it was done because there

was no internet. So that's, that's the mindset of the people who use fanzines It's us. We're the we're the people who use them. We are digital. We're digital fanzine Yeah, like it became the most common activity in the world is is fanzines basically in some form or another But in this case, they are actual publications still but how do we get to fanzines? Basically after writing Motor Spirit, Kovec emails a comics dealer. I took extra special care to point out Tim Holt number 30 last time that we talked. You remember that one? It's the cowboy on the cover with the woman and there's like a wheel of death behind her

that says by fire, by knife, by rope, guns, slave, paradise. It's that same thing that it doesn't exactly match it word for word as the Zodiac letter with the guns, slaves, paradise, by fire, by knife, by rope. It doesn't exactly match it, but it looks the same. It's Tim Holt number 30. I think it's from 1952, but it might be from 1958. I'm sorry. I don't have it right off the top of my head. How dare you? If you want to look at it again. The letter is Zodiac letter 15, if you want to see that letter again. He asks about Zodiacs. So they find that and then he asks about the slaves in paradise concept also, because it's also there on that same little piece of word

art. So he's asking the comics dealer like, do you know of anything that has that concept in it? And he was like, no, but the way that it was written and stuff reminded him of the way people used to write in fanzines. So then he's like, okay, all right. So he's taking that comic book lead and just kind of jumping into that.

And, uh, that's why boom, the Leo fanzines. That's why he's Googling it because obviously Zodiac is supposed to be in Vallejo, so he's like, let's go to Vallejo and look for the fanzines. Uh, so he's looking for. Yeah. The, the, the impetus for this was just like, it seemed like it was from fanzine text. So that's where it started. Yeah. He literally was just like, okay, maybe Zodiac read this comic book and then this guy out of nowhere just unprompted said he sounds like he might be like a fanzine type guy. And so that was enough for him to go like, all right, let's just like see what

fanzines were around. Just a random thread to pull on. Yeah, sure And he stumbled upon a fanzine called type beam He got a PDF of it. It was from their January through March 1970 issue And in it there was a letter that was complaining about the raise in postal rates And the fact that by raising the postal rates it actually caused delays around Christmas time and the the letter also talks about it advocates for civil disobedience to protest this change, like using one cent stamps for the full sum of postage because it makes it more annoying to have to count. Yeah, he also complains about smoking cigarettes. Uh, he complains about, uh, his, his discontent with conventions in the sword and sub, uh, sword and sorcery

sub genre. And seriously, seriously already fucking him already. Doesn't that is like, I know from a nerd and whether or not, uh, writers should be forced, maybe his complaints were valid and whether or not writers should be forced. Maybe his complaints were valid. And whether or not riders should be forced to write in English or not. All right. Nevermind. The letter ends with asking anybody in the Bay area, if they're interested in skin diving or sailing, which is significant because in June 26, 1970, this is letter 11 is when Zodiac includes that map of Mount Diablo that has the cipher

that was never solved and the radians and the, you know, always to be set to magnetic north, you know that one? You guys remember that one with the Mount Diablo centered on it? And he was like, it was like the compass. Yeah, it was like a compass, but instead of like the cardinal directions, the one puzzle nobody could figure out. Yeah, exactly. And so that was so that that's the map to his bombs, right? Yes. Yes. And then the There was the two letters that had the Mikado reference Yeah, which would be crazy if somebody wrote a letter referencing a song from Mikado, but the The letters got delayed because they were in opposite order

Remember I was saying like he mentions the little list before he before they got the little list letter. Sure. So it seems like maybe the little list came first. In that letter is when he says PS the Mount Diablo code concerns radians and inches along the radians, which is like you know if you're a like a diver or sailor somebody with navigation knowledge, you might, you might know that terminology. So that's the first thing that in this letter, he was like, okay, I can like connect to this a little bit is like, it has this thing about the first

letter he finds has the thing about the one cent stamps from this guy, Paul Doerr, right? And the second letter by Paul Doerr that he looks up has this thing that's like, okay, another thing that could conceivably like be a feature of him as the zodiac, right? And so then he kind of like thinks about that. And then he realizes that based on the date of this posting about the skin diving and sailing, that it was sent after December 20th, 1969, which is when Melvin Belli got the letter late during the holidays by like seven days because there was a delay at Christmas time. And Belli was out of the country too, so he had to fly back and get it after Christmas and so that was

the delayed holiday letter and I want to say that that same letter also had six one-cent stamps as opposed to John. So already we can talk about like from a cosmic universe perspective of everybody ever could possibly be zodiac, right? We're already finding just a little bit of a connection of like that those two things alone wouldn't be that interesting except that when you look at that one letter you can see how both things are apparent in that one thing. So, uh, Koubek started to look into this guy, Paul Doerr, and was kind of interested in him. Uh,

just because in addition to just kind of like having those factual things, just the look of these letters and the vibe of the letters just is, is peaking his interests, right? He's seeing his this guy's like writing style and the things that he's doing. And it's kind of picking his interest. So he sees that Paul Doerr is born in 1927 in Sharon, Pennsylvania. He was abandoned by his father and he was a Navy medic in World War II. He worked at Mare Island Naval Base, which is the same place that Darlene took her sister.

It's like a very big deal local military base where she went to see the parade on the 4th of July. Not suggesting a connection. It was the 4th of July and it's a naval base. Pop like big deal local military base with you would see the parade on the fourth of july. Not suggesting a connection it was the fourth of july and it's a naval base but he was he work there and just to give you an idea of how connected was everybody else in the story. Or at least those early people in the story and he lived twenty minutes north of that of lao in fairfield so. Maryland and all that stuff is down there is Vallejo is right there, he's 20 minutes north. However, he kept a post box in Vallejo from 1964 to 1976. And also, there is a Google Maps image from 2007 of his house where he has a 1968 Ford Falcon, which is the only model and make of that car that looks like the car that Darlene Farron was driving that day. Because Mike Mageau was like, the killer's car looked like Darlene's car.

And this Ford Falcon looks a lot like that and has the fin like Darlene's car. So it was like kind of a strange thing. And the way he found it, maybe not brought up in books. I can't remember if it wasn't the one I was, but we know how popular that car was back in the time, back in the day. It wasn't hugely popular. It's not unlike, it's like, it's not a total coincidence. It clearly there's no future models of it. So it probably wasn't like, it's just the thing that makes it very specific that he owned this

Specific one is that the fin the fin looks like the other car. So that's the thing that's important and he rolled it back So like he had to go on Google Maps and like roll the house back Cuz door died in 2007, right? So he rolled the Google Maps back all the way to 2007 and the car was suddenly in front of his house. And it's like one of the cars that's like notoriously a dead ringer for many of the cars that have been cited as from witnesses in this case. His first letter to the editor ever was in the June 1945 issue of the acolyte, which was an early fanzine. And he was only 17 or 18 years old.

Hopefully a really good Star Wars upcoming show. Yeah, and he wrote fan letters or fanzine style letters all the way till his death in 2007. So that's from 1945 to 2007, this man was writing letters. He had a very, very developed interest in firearms. He would frequently use the fanzines to set up trades with other readers of firearms. And he didn't just participate in other fanzines, but he also wrote and published his own fanzines of varying levels of seriousness and sort of like weirdness. Champagne News, Pathan, Patter, Pioneer, Panthen, Habitalia, Unknown, Mendocino Husbandman, The Shangri-La

Pioneer, Sanctuary News, and Filkin. Sorry, what was that last one? Filkin. We'll get into that a little bit. Yeah, we'll get into Filkin a little bit later. If you're even a fraction as busy as I can be sometimes finding something to eat that's quick, delicious, and healthy is hard, dude. So thank you to Factor for sponsoring this episode.

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That's pretty sweet. Thank you again to Factor for sponsoring today's episode. Kovek has taken with his information, decides to look for some of these things. But here's a quote for Jesse to read from Kovek's second book, How to Find Zodiac Again, like I said, which you should purchase and read immediately as well after you read Motor Spirit, about why this version of researching a suspect is different from how Dave Toskey or Robert Graysmith- Before any of those, you should always read The Hobbit. Yeah. The Hobbit is actually pretty decent reading for this specific book.

These were not available on the internet, but were referenced. Kovac couldn't get a sense of when Doerr... Doerr? Yeah, Doerr. And I think that's supposed to say began. Began issuing his own publications. Wouldn't realize the dates until March, uh, much later. But the writer could tell that some publications ran contemporary with the Zodiac moment. One was called Habitalia. It was apparently

about J.R.R. Tolkien. Another publication was called Pioneer. The only descriptions referred to it as a survivalist magazine. Kovac thought, well what the hell? Is it possible to find copies of these things? What's the worst that could happen? At the very least they could disqualify Dürer as Zodiac. Right. And that is basically the whole thing that I'm trying to say. I said it once already, but the right way to look for a murderer is by trying to eliminate them as a suspect, not to prove that they did it.

Right? It's a way all like you feel to approach any sort of hypothesis or theory within science should be the same way. Exactly. And surprising no one at this point since I spoiled it already. Here is the moment when the sixth phantom of Cordelia arrives. The sixth phantom is the guy who actually did the crime. Right? Obviously, with the information we have now, we can't say for sure who this is. But it's at least pretty clear how this phantom is actually not a ghost, but an actual dead guy who's already probably buried in an actual grave on Earth somewhere and who, no matter

what he was like or seems like or did outside of this case, was the only thing that's important about him is that he was, based on the evidence evidence the person who actually did for sure do the crimes. So this isn't like a concept or a cultural thing. This is just the mundane fact based guy. That's the sixth phantom, the guy that we're never going to get maybe. He doesn't even count. Who knows? Today, as you already know, I'm going to be talking about Paul Doerr. So let's rock that out right now. First we're going to talk about the Minutemen. Okay? So we know that Paul Doerr was a member of the Minutemen because of a cache of documents

that has like 3,000 people on it who were Minutemen and they find Paul Doerr on there with his Vallejo PO box listed unredacted on page 79. For the record, Minutemen is in like the militia. So I'll get into that in a minute. So he's given Minutemen designation A, which means that he is a Minutemen who has been identified publicly or by law enforcement agencies as members of the Minutemen. I'm going to read the Wikipedia entry for the Minutemen, which is this. The Minutemen was an anti-communist, nativist militia organization formed in the United States. Tell me if this reminds you of anybody. In the early 1960s, the founder and head

of the group was Robert Depew, a biochemist from Norburn, Missouri. The Minutemen organized themselves into small cells and stockpiled weapons for an anticipated counterrevolution. Depew published a 10-page pamphlet on guerrilla warfare via the Minutemen in 1961. The Minutemen's newsletter was called On Target. He was eventually arrested for weapons charges, yada, yada, yada. It's basically the 1960s version of the Proud Boys. Not quite terrorist organization, but that stockpiles weapons and imagines what it would be like if they did terrorism.

Right? So the reason this is interesting, the reason this is like a good connection is because there's a few things that actually overlap about Poldoer, Zodiac, and the Minutemen. a few things that actually overlap about Paldo or Zodiac and the Minutemen. Yeah. Uh, in January, 1966, the Minutemen publish a bulletin that talks about ammonium nitrate, high explosives, AKA and foe explosives, uh, which is four years before there's a huge, like

worldwide tragedy involving this type of bomb. Right. Yeah. So this is kind of like an unknown method because it wasn't famous at the time, which again happened August 24th, 1970. And that's specifically interesting because the Zodiac letter that uses an Zodiac letter that uses an Anfo-like bomb recipe in letter seven came out before the attack by nine and a half months. So this is a pretty rare bomb type for Zodiac to be using before this thing went mainstream. Because once something famous happens using it, everybody tries to copy it. But until

then, it was just like theoretically something that could work. Or at least in the context of using it as a terrorism device, let's put it that way, because I think there's a lot of other times when people use that stuff like maybe in live livestock or farming, stuff like that, where you might need to blow up some stuff, but not really in the sense of like causing fear and death. Also there's a quote here from family survival techniques by the Minutemen. Try to buy your guns in such a way that it cannot be traced to you. If you live in a state or city that requires a permit to buy a gun, go to some other state that does not have such a requirement. So according to Zodiac himself, he bought his guns through the mail before the ban of

1968 on mail firearms. We talked a little bit about that with the son of Sam. Yeah, and he traveled across state lines. Just like son of Sam. On his own admission to buy a gun in Letter 7. He says this. Another quote from Family Survival Techniques is, a gun may be needed as an offensive weapon in resistance warfare, in the home or carried for personal defense, possibly as a survival weapon for living off the land. What shall it be? Though it will surprise many people, my recommendation is a 22 caliber

semi-automatic pistol. As to a specific brand, I much prefer the Ruger made by StrumRugerCo. Other good 22 automatics include High Standard and Colt models. Jensen and Faraday, the first two victims of the Zodiac, were killed with the 22 semi-automatic pistol. So there you go. Also, here's another one from communication techniques in resistance movement. Okay. In communication through a dead drop the agent receives his assignments in written form. These agent assignments must be encoded or in ciphered. Therefore we must train the agent in the use of ciphers, codes, the preparation of soft emulsion film, micro dot and secret writing.

Okay. Zodiac obviously also quite a big fan of ciphers and codes amongst other people out there who also enjoy making little fun secrets for people to have fun with and shouldn't be demonized for. You know what I mean? Not, not necessarily just for that. That's all I'm saying. Demonize away fans. Next one comes from silencers says when it comes to handguns, automatics are much easier to silence than revolvers. This is especially true with anything more than a 22. Uh, Michael Maggio did not hear anything when the gun was fired, fired, though he was getting shot in the face at the time, so who knows.

The kids who saw whoever it was rifling through Paul Stein's shit when he was cutting the shirt to get the shirt proof, they didn't hear a gunshot either, even though they were just across the street. Next one is from Practical Security Measures. It says, send all letters from corner mailboxes or from post offices where you are not known And I already said Paul Doerr lived in Fairfield But he kept a PO box in Vallejo and operated out of Vallejo as a murderer and the slogan of the Minutemen finally is

Traders beware even now the crosshairs are on the backs of your neck with an accompanying symbol that looks like a crosshair in a circle. Is this like, all this lines up too perfectly? Uh-huh. Now you know why it's very convincing. This is the book I read as well. And you're just like, oh, huh. Yeah, he's just a fucking nerdy asshole. It's about but it but it seems like this is it's about probability Surely this is something that a seasoned detective would have figured out right?

How could you ever Google Vallejo fanzines in? 1969 Surely someone would be like, oh I got this fanzine and the symbol is very similar. Like this dude is saying, like, I don't know, man. That's a good, that's a fair point. But here's the point that I'm going to make in encounters with the zeitgeist. Surely someone would have said, Oh, this reminds me of this guy. Get a zine from the minute men specifically would never rat on themselves like that because putting a minute man symbol on something

to, to invoke fear is like part of their strategy for, for, they want that. It is a bunch of asshole racists. You're right about that. It is a bunch of asshole racists. But like, I have to imagine that the association, like if you just take the association with, uh, proud boys, right? Like even in their own twisted way, they must have some sort of like, Like even in their own twisted way, they must have some sort of like, we're doing this for the betterment of America and murdering random people doesn't seem like the betterment of America. I don't think he was doing it in his mindset as a minute man in terms of like political ideology aligning.

All right, but I'm saying anyone else in the minute man surely would have just been like this ain't this guy to represent us. Oh, sure. But here's the thing. Let's say you're a police officer. Okay. First, somebody calls you up and tells you they think their neighbor is the zodiac. Then somebody calls you up on the phone and tells you that they think that this movie star that they saw in this like restaurant is the zodiac killer because he was in the same city as the zodiac. So you're, you're saying that they just blew it off as like, yeah, probably not.

I'm sure that, I'm sure that this one lead was like mentioned to the police alone But there's so many minute men. I'm talking about 3,000 members just on that list to be fair I mean to use other episodes as examples How many times did they walk into John Wayne Gacy's house while the bodies were under the floor and they're like, what's up John? You know, like it just it just happens and at the same time I gotta say these files that listed him as a member even uh were Classified until recently

by the fbi so it's like Yes, maybe it could have helped but I do something maybe I do I do think it's very likely that somebody called the police and told them about the minutemen having a crosshair symbol Uh at least and if you look it up, it's the same fucking symbol. It just doesn't go beyond... The crosshair is a little bigger than the circle for the zodiac. Also, in the first through 7th of November, 1968 issue of Barb fanzine, Doerr ran a classified ad looking for a USN captain cap size 7 to 7.5 that he wanted mailed

to him in Vallejo. And this is about a month before the Jensen and Faraday killing. And I'm not... Look, this is another one of those ones that's like almost what Graysmith is doing. But if you think about this and you think about the methodology of the Zodiac Killer and how from the one guy who survived one of these car attacks, we know that he pulled up behind him with a light and pretended to be the cops. If he was wearing a USN captain cap and you were being blinded in the face, it would be

a great way to look like you were wearing a police hat without having to order one, if that makes sense. Oh yeah. That is also, maybe we'll get to them one day, but a couple serial killers should do exactly that. Who just like wear either that or sometimes they don't even wear anything and they just say that they're cops and that's enough as long as they're, you know, it's in the dark and they're saying it authoritative, like authoritatively enough.

It's it's it's uh, it's actually, it's actually scary. It's actually so fucked up how much power police have. Confidence can get you a far a long way. Yeah. So let's talk about the cipher, the big cipher, the one that was in all three papers that like combined together again now. Uh, this is the one where he talks about slaves in paradise and the concept of killing someone and making them your slave in the afterlife. Okay so that's something that's part of zodiac myth so like i said cobec was kinda like looking for this lead right he finds it in a book from nineteen sixty seven that is called the strange ways of man rights and rituals in their Rituals and Their Incredible Origins by E. Royston Pike.

And the quote from the book is, some tribes believed that the person whose heads they had taken would become their slaves in the afterlife. That is likely where he got it because he saw it on one of Paul Doerr's want lists in Patter, one of his magazines, one of his magazines when his fans in his asking for the specific book. It's not clear which issue of it because the labeling system is wrong so he doesn't know exactly what issue we saw but he saw it on paul doher's want list and it means that. Unless he just kept asking for this book forever never it's a pretty specific book to have on your want list. He probably read it if he was looking for a copy of it. He probably somehow had access to it to want it because you couldn't look it up on the internet for some reason. There are other books that mention this. There's one called The Natives of Sarawak in British North Borneo by Henry Ling

Roth that says, the Uru Ais believe that the person whose head they take will become their slave in the next world. And the next one is from another one that says, their belief that persons whose heads have been taken this world be the next to become the servants of the wars who had taken them. And then the idea of slavery applying to murder victims, though, the reason we know it's from the book that

Koubek asked for specifically is because that's like a new sort of like racist add-on that this like last version of the telephone added on to make it more exotic sounding. So it's specifically only in the book that Koubek asked for, if you know what I mean. It's like a factually wrong sort of like exoticized story of some tribal guys trying to make slaves in the afterlife by murdering people. So that's another thing. Then let's talk about the Berkeley Barb August, I'm sorry, 8th through 14th of August, 1969. There's an ad that Paul Doerr puts out asking for a girl, uh, to join him for sailboat trips. As we know, he loves sailing.

Specifically just a girl? Yeah. He's like, if there's like a female companion who wants to like join me, who's like within this age, who's kind of hot, I'm looking for you. Nothing changes. Nothing ever changes. This guy lucked out that he's not like a post like that in a newspaper will be on Twitter on red. If you'll be dog in this, actually, no, you know what it would be? It would be a fucking Reddit post because he's also living with his wife and teenage daughter at this time. Oh yeah. No, he's the asshole. Yeah. For sure. It should

be on like two hot takes. Yeah. This is true. We take this as hit. We, you know, we, we pretend this is it a hundred percent. Yeah. He's like every other hot takes. Yeah, this is true. We take this as hit. We you know, we pretend this is it 100% Yeah, he's like every other cellular killer. Yeah, and fucking weenie nobody who's just desperate and pathetic. And it just like, not the monster people make in their heads. Like, it just, it just holds true across the board. Yeah. And we know that that specific fanzine, the Monday or Tuesday before the magazine gets published, the staff actually calls every single person to speak to them and verify.

And that call would have happened August 4th or August 5th of 1969, which is like right after the letter that went out where he gives more information about the killings. It's like right after that. And if you're like looking for a babe to leave town with on a boat, you know, cause you, cause you killed someone, one babe or town leaving, even though you have a wife and daughter at home, now I need a hot babe and leave town. The dates just kind of line up there. You know, it's just, it's just supposition, but the dates line up. And that's the thing. Yes, I am kind of

doing the same thing that Gray Smith is doing, where he's just saying things and going, I don't know. Do you? But where Gray Smith is using them to punctuate his timeline that he's making, in this case, at every turn we're trying to find out ways that this guy could not have been Zodiac and there are just so many probabilities lining up to make him the Zodiac that it just starts to be ridiculous after a while. This one was like a weaker one, but I'm going in chronological order, so I just want to say like I'll tell you when he's just kind of spitballing in when it's fact-based. Flash forward a couple more weeks to September 27th, 1969. This is the day of the Lake Berryessa

attacks where the tall guy and his girlfriend are stabbed and the Cecilia Ann Shepard is killed, guy and his girlfriend are stabbed and Cecilia Ann Shepard is killed and he wears the sick outfit, the executioner's hood looking thing that he wore over his head. Very strange thing to wear, would have stood out to have this thing on your person, definitely, anywhere that you were seen with it, Unless you were attending the third annual Renaissance pleasure fair in Hapenny Market that was running every weekend in September of 1969, 1.5 hours from Lake Berryessa. Doerr makes a note that he has worked at Ren fairs and associated events with a special interest in Tolkien's work and he would talk about actually making fantasy garb in hobbit alia number two in 1970 so there's another he's in suffering that's like keeper

fucking levels of nerd it's extremely likely that he was at this red you think if reddit existed it would have stopped him from murdering i don't know because reddit did exist while he was alive i think or something close enough to it and he just kept kept on going. We'll get into that though, in a minute. What do you, whoa, what do you, that's not true. What do you mean? Reddit didn't exist. It's not Reddit, the website, but Reddit, like as in an infinite community of people online that you can suddenly connect to and talk about anything you want with.

There was no online. This guy died in 2007. He definitely was writing, but he was murdering people after he was active. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm just saying like he definitely like, I don't think he would have stopped murdering, but I think he definitely like went on there and definitely just kept on riding on there. And I don't, I don't know if he was continually murdering people this whole time, but I don't think so. I don't think so. Uh, but, uh, yeah. So then we go to September again, 1969, Panthen number two. It's either called Panthen or Panthen, we're not sure because Panthen number one, Panthen,

Panthen number one, Panthen number two. So who knows which one's the wrong one. But the thing that's interesting about that is that there was a delay between the two issues that was very long. And this is September 1969 and the quote is, the delay between number one and number two was not caused by laziness. It was caused by, well, forget it. And then on October 11th, 1969, which is Columbus Day, that was the day that Paul Stein was murdered. Doerr had an Italian wife, which meant that he would have had familial celebrations on Columbus Day because it's a big holiday for Italian

Americans at this time. He could not go out and kill till very late at night on that night. So that's another way that that could have worked. In it's just a way that he was available and make sense why specifically for a detail from his life that he would do that crime at that time. 1970, the 23rd through 29th of January issue of Barb door ran a classified ad for cheap books about botany anthropology Archaeology old Greek and Mediterranean civilization low rainfall flora fauna living methods Shells and yoga occult health all kinds of stuff like that

This came out one month after letter eight This came out one month after letter eight There's also so keep that in mind hop Italian number one came out April 23rd 1970 a couple months later has two things in it that are interesting the first one is about jewelry and gemstones and It is kind of Maybe the what the hell was that?

Did you guys hear that? No. I heard like a huge loud sound in my room that sounded like I got an email from God. I don't know what it was. Anyway, super weird. That was, this is not part of my like weird bit. Clarify the episode numbering for me, please. This has nothing to do with the Chodiak bit.

That just really, I think it was like a system sound. Thank you so much to GhostBed for sponsoring today's episode. And if you're like me, you're a hot sleeper, man. Like if anybody could take a picture of me in my sleep, please don't be the person to do that, by the way. But if anybody did, they would see somebody who cranes their neck so high that when he's lying on the pillow, so my nose is like not breathing onto my pillow so that I don't make it hot. Or at least that's what I used to do before I got a ghost bed pillow and I'm not even kidding you.

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One of the articles that he quotes in the Habitalia thing is something called Amulets and Talismans, which has a Greek inscription that looks like the name cipher, the short one that's too short to solve. If you put that same inscription over the cipher, both start with the letter A. They have similar characters in the seventh position. They both repeat their internal characters across the sets third eleventh and fifth ninth. I'll show you the link to this don't freak out it's an unsecure link i'm freaking out. Freaking out man look this will report here ancient greek palindrome that translates poorly without our father.

Yeah so you can you kind of look at this. We can talk about this more later if you want. But it kind of figures out into a solve for a bunch of different things that lines up with some zodiac stuff. It's gonna be my mini-sode thing that I talk about today. So we'll get into it a little bit later, but I just wanted you guys to be able to look at it

and kind of see where his head is at about it. If you if you can parse it. It's kind of complicated and definitely used a computer. But it's fairly convincing. It's definitely the like most wacky thing that he does in this book. Like the most like out there thing that's in the book. On the next page, in this Hopitalia magazine, the next thing that's interesting happens, which is that he writes about his attempts to establish grammar and a dictionary for the language serth or kerth, which is the runic Tolkien alphabet. If you know the one I'm talking about, the runic one that looks like Middle Earth version of runes and has dots and the letter Y and stuff.

You know the one. It's kind of beautiful. Is it elvish no no the other one the other one that's like a little bit more square. You look at us a c i r c i r t h look it up c i r t h. I. He's he's he's trying to legitimize it as a language rather than what it is right now here's a quote is he says he says, as we are using serf now substituting a symbol for a letter one for one, this is not a language. It is just a cipher, a code, and rather simple. We are insulting the brilliance of Mr. Tolkien by perverting his language to such a simple use. He writes about ciphers and he says, how do you like my cipher? Are you having fun with my cipher?

In one of the letters that he wrote, I think it's the fourth letter where he's asking for more info and he miss spells cipher. C I Y P H E R. Damn you cipher. But you'd be cipher. You know you would be Jesse. Who? Me? You. You'd be cipher. Ignorance is bliss, dude. Yeah. I know you'd be chomping on that red meat, not even thinking about if it's real. So they both misspelled Cypher with a Y, though it's not the same spelling of Cypher. One has the I still in there, but they both

spelled it with a Y. Also, on the last page of that same issue of Habitalia, there's a Cypher in Sirth, which if you decode it means, do we have enough tokens in the San Francisco area for a Tolkien con? What about the entire West coast? I would like to hear from any near by mail or phone or whatever. Um, and then at the, and then there's another cipher at the bottom that translates to PLDR of sun river, which is his like hobbit name or something. Paul door of sun river, PLDR, Paul door. Pauldor of Sun River, P-L-D-R, Pauldor. Piddler of Sun River.

So that's his like little, that's his little like serf version of his name. Piddler, yeah. And Hobbitalia is between letters nine and 10. And he's, this is the letter where he's talking about with the knight and the dragon on the card, where he's talking about the rain washing away his bomb so he has to remake it. So keep that in mind.

And then in 1970, on July 26th, we get the Little List letter that has that long song on it that Jesse read a couple times ago. And he has this line in that letter that's like, others shall be placed in cages and fed salt beef until they are gorged, then I shall listen to their pleas for water and I shall laugh at them. And there are two places that that comes from. One is McLeod of Dare, that's by William Black, and it says, then there was salt beef lowered to the dungeon, he was mad with thirst, then they lowered a cup into the dungeon but it was empty, and so having made a fool of mad with thirst. Then they lowered a cup into the dungeon, but it was empty.

And so having made a fool of him in that way, they left him to die of thirst. And then also tales of a grandfather by Sir Walter Scott. The stone, which covered the aperture in the roof, was lifted and the quantity of salt beef left down to the prisoner. A cup was slowly lowered down, which when he eagerly grasped it, he found to be empty. So it's from a book. It's like another like reference to another like fantasy ass book. We're not sure which one but it's another. It just kind of like continues with the like

it being Doerr thing of like very much in the wheelhouse of the type of thing he would read. Then we have the October 5th 1970 issue of the zine The Seed where Doerr has a classified ad asking if anyone is interested in working in a communal farm in Oregon and that they should respond to his post box if they want to do it. So this came out the same day that letter 14 was mailed and he writes this again on the October 30th issue of It Ain't Me, Babe, another magazine. This is 25 days later. And I know it's a great name. It's all lowercase, too. It's called If It Ain't Me, Babe. I actually really like that.

Yeah. And then these either in between those two is the is the card he wrote to Paul Avery, which may be the last Zodiac communication according to Kovec, right? That's the one that we think is the last one if we're following Kovec's story in Motor Spirit. And the idea being that if he's asking, hey, do you guys want to like, come run away with me to a farm? It's like, and that's the last Z zodiac letter. Maybe he's like, that's maybe we're looking right there at the finale of the zodiac. Like he's trying to move away, run away, start a farm and not be the zodiac killer anymore. Another thing lots of killers trying to Yeah. So the timing just adds up a little bit, but it's it's it's

loose. 1971 September. Trove number one, treasure hunting fanzine, has a thing that says, this is a quote from Paul Doer, after a few months researching in the local libraries, I drove out into the country near Lake Berryessa and located some landmarks. So this came out in 1971, so it's years later, but it does prove that he knows about Lake Berryessa and that he's been there before and that he's aware of it as a place. And he also makes references to hunting on the weekends that he likes to do. Could be that he's a hunter. Wink wink, nudge nudge.

But could mean that he's the Zodiac Killer. There's also some diagrams that I will admit that one may is like one of the ones that I'm like, I mean, yeah, but that's like a stretch. Some are looser than others though. Some are looser than others. They're all loose. That's what I'm saying. It's all, they're all, yeah, none of them, none of them are meant to be taken as direct evidence. It's all about increasing the probability till it's hard to deny it. Right. So that's what we're trying to do. Hobbitallia number two and number three,

both have diagrams from Paul Doerr in them about how to create smiles or smeeels, which are the small houses that hobbits live in that have that particular hobbit house look to them. You know what I'm talking about? Where it's like earth on the outside and doors. That was like a big focus of his. He loved that shit. Ken Kaczynski probably, you know, feel for him there. Yeah. September 1971 and October 1972 are when they are. If you look at them, I don't know where you get them. I don't, I wasn't able to see them, but apparently these diagrams look a lot like, I was trying to, I was trying to get a picture of them that I can show you,

but I can't. They look a lot like the bomb diagrams, the way that they're drawn, the shaky lines, the look of it all. And the, and the PDF that you sent us? No, no, there it's in this book, but I don't, I can't like there's no phone and then send it. Yeah. There's no digital version of the book. I'll, I'll send you guys one other than share online, but I feel weird just taking pictures

out of a book that seems like, like sus, but you guys can, you guys can trust me that this looks a lot like the same hand. Like it's not inconceivable. It's very close. Just looking at the pictures that they were drawn by the same person. The same kind of like note and lack of command of drawing

and some of the same sort of like diagram like items and letter forms. In 1972 in March, so this is like after the first time that the diagram showed up but before the second time, he writes into a zine called Vanu Life number six and he says quote if the crypto script is any kind of substitution system, it's easy to break just by frequency of letters and ratio, which is exactly how the zodiac cipher was decrypted. Also in April of 1972, April 10th, there's a column by Guy Wright in the San Francisco Examiner, Paul Doerr writes, or the people with those things, plus the rack, the stake, the gun, the rampant disease,

and the ideology that lets them treat less civilized people as animals and slaves. It's like not in any way directly referencing the zodiac, but the rack, the stake, the gun, and the animals and slaves treating people's animals and slaves it's the same ideology is the zodiac kind of. In november of nineteen seventy two there's a magazine called pioneer number nine that has a bunch of information is what cobex i'm sorry one of doors. zines that he published himself. There is a reference on page 10 to a popular science article from 1959 called Do Extinct Animals Still Survive by E. H. Ortner and the reason this is interesting is that he was in he was seems to be subscribed to popular science in the same time period, time frame as the issue that has the idea of silencing guns or covering the, putting the flashlight on

the gun, the thing that he got from popular science. It proved that Doerr was reading that magazine at the time that that article was in the magazine. Also in this same issue of Popular Science is this quote, Ammonium nitrate, common commercial fertilizer mixed with fuel oil, one gallon per 100, is explosive as dynamite but only 4 cents per pound and must be kept dry. Which is completely consistent with the bomb plans in letter 7, which is take one bag of ammonium nitrate fertilizer plus one gallon of stove oil and dump a few bags of gravel on top of that and set the shit off will positively ventilate anything that should be in the way of the blast.

Bomb threat was not in public circulation at the time that that was made. Right. So there's no chance of him seeing it and mimicking it because. Right. Exactly. And it also lines up with letter nine, which is like, it would have been a lot more except that my bus bomb was a dud. I was swamped out by the rain we had a while back. So he used the fact that he had to keep it dry to explain why he couldn't use it. So we have that knowledge.

Without even saying it's because it needed to stay dry, he just said he was swamped out because of the rain. So unless you know what he's talking about, then you really don't know why that's a bother. Right, exactly. Then there's January 24th, 1973, we're another year on now. Another letter from Doerr appears in the San Francisco Examiner, the actual paper, a letter to the editor about getting rid of Supreme Court justices. And the thing that's interesting about it is not the subject matter, except that he addressed it. SF examiner SF, which is very similar to how Zodiac addresses stuff to the Chronicle. And in Vanu Link number 12, May, 1973, just a couple of months later, he writes a letter to FS examiner SF will reach it without street address.

He noticed that he did that. He gave it as a tip and then Zodiac did the same thing to another newspaper. He's doing what a lot of serial killers who kind of play cat and mouse with the cops do when they think they have the upper hand, where there are little tiny things that unless you actually know what you're looking for, though, make no sense to anybody. But to them, that's them like, I'm not smarting them. I'm being so much smarter than they are. They're almost into these involved. But there's no way for them to grab hold of the thread

unless they randomly decide to take one of the many tips they had and follow that one out of all of them. Right, plausible deniability. November 1st, 1974, a little further. The other thing he's doing that makes it very difficult for the cops to give it's credit to the cops is, a lot of serial killers usually operate not far away from where they live. There's like a usually a five mile radius from wherever they live. They almost always operate in familiar

ground. Right. Because they're not self-aware in that way. Yeah. No, they're not doing it for, yeah, they're not doing it for like, you know, they're doing it for their own personal inner reasons. And like, this guy's thinking the one step ahead of like, if I stay far from where I live, they're going to be fishing around in an area I'm never at. I honestly think that a great way to describe why Zodiac moved his crimes to San Francisco in the first place was for the same reason that like an influencer would rent a studio space that looks like an airplane to like pretend like they're like living a private

airplane life. He just wanted to be in it. He's like, I'm in it. I'm in the heart of it now. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I genuinely do think that's exactly why he did it because he was trying to Hollywood up his murders so that he could be cooler than the tape murders. Dude, it happened, man.

He went out to California and he got LA'd. He got worried about the branding. He got worrying about the, he got the California fever, infected him. He got into the murder show business and he got cut by the Manson murders. He's trying to be an influencer, bro. And then, so got the California fever, infected him. He got into the show, the murderer show business, and he got cut by the Manson murderers. He was trying to be an influencer, bro. And then, so here's a crazy, this is a crazy one.

This is from November 1st, 1974. This is another year and like almost two years. This is one year later, and it's November instead of January. Green Egg Magazine, Doher writes to, way in, because there was like a fight or conflict that people had been talking about the previous issue. So here's a quote from Doerr and this was kind of a long one so maybe I'll just have Jesse read it. Finally, and I won't put this on paper, but I can suggest to you personally

various physical procedures that you could carry out. It might be better if you don't print any part of my letter. As you can see, I'm not the turn the other cheek don't get involved type. I was in a vaguely similar situation some years ago, and there are fewer people here because of it now. The law is not dependable. Also in a personal situation, I'm all in favor of definitive personal action. Sounds like he's admitting to doing multiple murders in this.

Don't know if he is admitting to something, multiple murders. What sucks about this is it also has the exact same vibe as every arm chair, like I'd die for liberty like gravy seal dude, whoever gravy seal. I've never heard that term, dude. That's amazing gravy seals. Oh, you said the gravy seals. That's fucking hilarious. That's like somebody sending me my address because I didn't like the last Jedi. E-mailing me my own home address. Because I said that I think that it's good that Luke Skywalker went out like that.

Sorry. But yeah, if I read that, I would assume that that person meant he killed people. Right? Yeah. But I mean, again, it also falls into the category of like- He said there are less people here because of it now. So that's pretty direct implication. Like it's like such, it's

such, if you, how many people on Reddit say the same? All I'm going to say is if you want to see the exact same thing, go to the Reddit section where it's called like, uh, like cultist, but spell with a Q cause it's like Q and all stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's all their posts and they all read like this. Like it's like you and I'm still, yeah, yeah. Good. And it's all their posts and they all read like this. Like it's, they're just performative nonsense. So yeah, this guy could be a killer or he's just exactly what people are like today where it's like, yeah, I served, but I don't talk about it because I killed so many. It's like, yeah.

And also we have to keep in mind too. He's not writing into a thing where he's an anomaly. Everybody who's writing into this thing probably sounds like this. They all probably sound like this. The guy recognized the tone from his voice, right? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a mistake that that was published. Uh, like he's like, don't publish this, but I killed some people and then they publish it, which is hilarious.

January 23rd, 1975, Pioneer number 14, Doerr's own thing. He's offering hundreds of phono records, seven-inch reels of sound tape, muzzle-loading pistol, $165 bow, knives, swords, guns, books, record player, four-band portable, and about ten hours about ten tons of other stuff. And the reason this is interesting is because it's in 1975, which is well after the ban in 1968 went into effect. And he's complaining about the ban elsewhere in this issue. And that means that he knew about the ban and still decided to offer to sell guns by mail in the same issue. He doesn't give a shit about breaking the law.

Basically, he has enough contempt for law enforcement that he has, you can literally see evidence of him breaking the law. Basically, he has enough contempt for law enforcement that he has, you can literally see evidence of sounds like, uh, sounds like a sovereign, a sovereign citizen. Do you know those people are? Yeah, I mean, yeah, no, that's what I'm saying. It's yes. That's exactly what he sounds like. You can't I don't need a license to drive on roads paid for by tax dollars. Yeah, exactly. May 1975. one of the issues of pattern begins

circulating clearly referencing buying land in Mendocino County, in the town of Covello. Doerr actually went there. He went there on weekends. He actually had a cabin there that he had no electricity or modern conveniences. I actually have an archive link of the Zillow for that cabin right here. If you guys want to see it and tell everybody how hilarious it is, uh, cause it is quite hilarious. You can kind of look at some of these picks, you know, the Zodiac killer, where he would go do his plans or something. Maybe that is like, that is like a Ted Kaczynski ass check Whoa. Shack is like where the bombs were made by Kaczynski, dude. This is like the same.

But what's the, what's the, what's the unexpected giant library you see? Yeah. A huge, I was going to say the toilet that is you have to walk outside to then go to the toilet. That's plum. It's plumbing, but it's just, you got to go outside to go to the toilet. I don't think it's just as rifles that just sticks out that whole library and a red hat in the background. I can see too, which I don't think he was around for the red hat, uh, returned the red hat, but no, no, no, I don't think he was. Where is this at exactly?

Covello. It's in Mendocino County. I just want to point out for the record that when you go to this page for the first time, before you even look at anything, it says that this property, at least in 2018 or wherever this was, was down a hundred, it was down a hundred thousand dollars. So that's pretty cheap. You know, time to last it last sold, it went down 20% lower than what it was listed for. And it's a hundred percent less expensive than nearby properties.

So that's pretty good. The first picture they give you is like the angle you get in a horror movie just before the protagonist walks on screen and walks to her potential death where this cabin is going to be. So this is what he was talking about for his like sustainable living community that he wanted to live. It's, it's, it's, if you're living and you're not dying I guess it's technically sustainable living. Yeah I guess. Remember his at his magazine was called the Mendocino husband men.

Good lord yeah. This is what he was doing out there. He was just shitting in a closet and reading books about rifles. Imagine imagine if he took a hot babe out there like he wanted. Yeah imagine. Next we have July 1975 patter where he writes that he's lost a bunch of weight and that he's looking for Vampirella comics. I hate this guy so much. I like mention the Vampirella comics because I think it's funny but I also think like it proves that he could have had a copy of Tim Holt 30. And it's a fairly rare comic, but not that rare. And it wouldn't have been that rare for him to have it back then.

August, 1975, he actually ran for president of the Fantasy Amateur Press Association, FAPA, which is the name of his, which is the name of the fanzine org that he is. I'm sorry. It's all fucking. He won. So that's what published his fanzine. He actually was, he actually was the president of FAPA from August, 1975.

Oh my God. Of course you know what I get. I get why he lost. Yeah. It makes sense. Now this dude was picked on for sure. Oh, I'm not making fun of you. I'm the president of FAPA. I'm

gonna kick you out. Yeah, you are. According to him, his boat was done and he was sailing the world. Sailing the world at this time. FAPA-ing away. But he actually stayed a member for like another year. Yeah. And he actually wrote a couple more letters. I don't think he really went too far on his boat. He never left his family. He worked the same job the whole time. So I don't think he really went too far on his boat. He never left his family. He worked the same job the whole time. It seems like he went in a dormant period for a little bit. January 1976, during that period, he wrote a letter to Jim Strum, who is a guy who had this ego trip fanzine that's's like around robin type one.

So it kinda like. You know everybody kinda. Adds into an ever ongoing newsletter that just continues like almost like a scrolling page before that could exist and in that in a letter that he writes there he writes. there. He writes, the letter he wrote to Jim Strum trying to join Egotrip, he writes, quote, there is no way I can hide so long as I publish Pioneer. So he's trying to say I want to write stuff, but I can't hide if I keep publishing my own magazine. Or a dude who's like, come get me, cops. In 1980, Paul Doerr put a classified into an issue of Shaverton where he asked for books on witchcraft, Satanism, voodoo, sacrifice, multi-marriage, all stuff that he's always, Zodiac has also always been into. 1982 in Pagana, the newsletter of the Pagan Witchcraft Occult Special Interest Group of

the American Mensa, Doerr makes a reference to his P.O. box. He says, quote, I had a P.O. box, 14 1444 Vallejo, California, and having dropped it, still have people hunting for me. Also in May of 1982, Paul Doerr offers a mail forwarding service for $30 a year, which is like $100 a year nowadays. He would let you use his home address as a mail forwarding service and he would forward mail to you. I'm like if you move a lot if you like a travel and again that's that that riddler style thinking of like people's mail just filing into his home. Yeah fucking luck figuring out who actually lives there yeah kobeck kobeck was saying. who actually lives there. Yeah, Kovec was saying he thinks he did it to read mail

of other people, because he thought that was interesting. Might have been, but also has added benefit of more confusion. Well, that's the exactly, like Kovec also said that he had a colleague who was like, probably what it is, it's like plausible deniability if something shows up that he doesn't wanna say is his,

so that he can just be like, I don't know, I have a mail forwarding service, so I don't know where all the shit's coming from. And then in March, 1985, Doerr established a nonprofit called Investigator. And the idea was to produce something called Investigator that was supposed to, quote, it covers investigations of serial killings,

missing children, conspiracies, et cetera. And if you take this in conjunction with the 1980s classified ad that he did, where he was asking about witchcraft, Satanism, Voodoo, sacrifice, multi-marriage, seems odd that he has never once in his entire life, ever, even though he has an interest in serial killings and he's from 20 minutes away, never once in his life ever, ever, ever mentioned the Zodiac Killer for any reason. No one has ever heard him talk about the Zodiac Killer.

Yeah, that, I mean, it's one of those, it's tangential, but it's interestingly tangential during a time where like Gigi said, I mean, to the past two episodes showed that like the media frenzy around him, how do you like, I'm sure it was everywhere. Yeah, exactly. And that is where the book leaves. That's like basically without any of the speculation and like color that Kovac puts in there. And honestly, you really need to go in there and get the finer details to really understand how fleshed out this is. And I really didn't want to go so definitive on it because I really do want to encourage people to go buy this book instead of this show being a substitute for it. Yeah, but I did not stop my research there because I was very interested in this and I just wanted to see because I was surprised that it didn't make a bigger

splash. Right. Because yeah, I remember when we were talking about it when it first came out, we were like, this is insane. This is just like everything fits. Yeah. There's pictures of him in there that look, I showed it to you, right? I showed you how there's pictures of him that look like the sketch of the Zodiac Killer. There's so much, there's so many layers to why it works. And if you think about Paul Doerr as the guy who was getting cucked by the fucking other crimes and he's trying to do this thing and he loves cryptography and he's trying to hide his symbols everywhere, uh, you know,

everything that the Zodiac does and everything that he, this guy, Paul Doerr does kind of just are consistent with each other and there's not really any way to say that this guy was not the Zodiac. You know, there's not really any way to say that this guy was not the Zodiac. Sure. You know, there's not really any like exculpatory evidence out there that eliminates him because that's exactly what Kovac was looking for. So there is this show on Substack. I'm gonna give you the link to the show right here.

You guys can see it. Yeah, looking at his pictures too. You're like, Oh man, he's like, these the most similar looking out of anyone we've ever seen. There's a, there's one where somebody takes a shot of him and just like overlays glasses like that we have from the sketch. And I'm like, Yikes bro. That's scary. A literal nobody likes nobody who would have ever drawn any attention. He's literally a fresh subs from, from fanzines Vallejo. That's literally how they, how they got

him. But so basically, there was a podcast about Paul Doerr when the book came out. Pretty, pretty soon, pretty soon around that time. And it was heard by Paul Doerr's living grandson who's like in his 40s, I think. And, and he has a podcast on Substack, but it has sent you now called Trinity's public service announcement. Uh, and he talks to his mom in 2022, who is Paul Doerr's daughter, Gloria Doerr, Doerr, Doerr, and we learned some interesting stuff. So Trinity finds out he's Zodiac's grandson because he like believes the theory and he hears it

on this podcast, tells his mom, he seems kind of taken with the romance of the notion. He's kind of a, he seems kind of like a darker guy. He's a sad guy. I think he has good intentions. He seems like he's got a sweetheart, but just to get an idea of who he is. And this is a person who's alive right now, so let's not be just totally disrespectful. But this is this is his substack bio, which Mathis, maybe you can read for us right now. The son of sun, second chance activist, artist, father, egoist, lungist, legist, son of people, esoteric, Buddhist, mystic, knife sharpener, and ex-con, dedicated to shining light into all life's corners.

That's an eclectic mix. He sounds like he's had a really rough life, and even from his podcast, which is very not pro, it's just like a microphone in Hawaii, I think is where they live, and it gets interrupted. There's background noise. He kind of gets emotional with his mom sometimes, and he doesn't let her talk very much. He's excited about it, but he doesn't really know how to host the show. It's very much not a guy who's trying to be professional. It's very much like he found this out and he's just trying to talk to his family about

it. It's very interesting. Even his daughter calls him during it. It seems like there's something going on there too like just some kind of drama and It's an interesting it's an interesting portrait of somebody's life that I never would have got but I do ask you guys to just please Do not be disrespectful these people and It's really interesting. I listened to that To that show and it was really kind of

into that show and it was really kind of, it captured my imagination. And so before we close out the Zodiac episode, you know, part three, episode four, I want to do one last Graysmith sin. Not just? I want to not draw specific conclusions. I want to use some anecdotes that I learned from this podcast and just tip our hat to the sixth phantom one time, whether it ends up being Doerr or not. I just want to squeeze some extra circumstantial evidence out of there just to put some extra juice on this because I think it's pretty crazy. So a lot of people online were speculating that Paul Doerr was a wife-beater based on his behavior

and how he was talking and stuff like that and how he didn't have regard for his family. He was talking about leaving his family behind all the time and stuff like that. But sadly, Gloria was saying that actually he just beat her beat the shit out of her be used to shut up his kid at least in the sense of like Child abuse like corporal punishment type child abuse Getting too angry hitting Kind of torturing but she also seems to love her love her dad very much and has a lot of conflicted feelings about him. But it's interesting that he beat just his daughter and not his wife,

considering who his victims were and how he would focus on the daughter. I mean how he would focus on the teen girls and his daughter, own daughter was a teenager at the time. So I didn't think of the idea that Zodiac would have a teenage daughter, but the idea that I know that he beat his daughter and that he targeted young women kind of like seems more consistent from a prof, just from a profiling perspective seems to be more convincing for some reason. His family also brings up another thing that I did not know about and that is not very much covered in the book, but the son brings up the idea of, Trinity brings up the idea of

hypergraphia, do you know what that is? A lot of people with various, like, different things, like schizophrenic people or bipolar people or other people, and even just people who aren't any of those things that just have this. It's like the idea of writing a shitload, like a shit load, and it's kind of like the thing that a lot of like, there's like a lot of tropes

about kind of crazy people in movies doing this, where they just, like the dude from Seven, they just fill pages and pages and pages of paper with notes and just write, write, write write and it's not really that uh cohesive but it's like written and he's a pretty brainy guy um but his family kind of said that he had it for sure and obviously apocryphal because it's only after the fact on reading the suggestions of redditors and stuff that they even considered that he would have it and they or they heard the phrase hypergraphia but like for example i'm a writer i write stuff down all the time right in my phone like constantly but in their opinion unlike my

version of writing stuff down all the time in my phone which i do have a crazy looking phone but it makes sense considering my job right that i do that because I'm doing it to like come up with a new job to satisfy compulsion. Yeah. Doher's version had a manic character to it, according to his family. And when he wasn't writing, he was voraciously consuming all kinds of information and constantly learning as you could see from his big fucking library in his fucking shit house, brick house, deliverance home, you know, what a bargain. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. He just is constantly losing money even after death. Also, this is a crazy thing. He would hide his daughter's allowance somewhere in the

house every day. And when she'd come home, she'd find a tiny note rolled up in her house somewhere like on her bed or on her desk with a little riddle or small cypher with symbols. Or anything like that and it would lead her to a cool fifty cents everyday if she could find it. So as an example she said that the clue might lead her to a specific rock in the yard or something and when she'd lift it up under a slip of paper with one of her dad's quote squigglies on it, which are symbols that he used all the time that she specifically recognized that she would know how she, then she'd know she found it. And that sometimes when she found it, it would be glued together with rubber cement and she

would have to like figure out a way to dissolve the rubber cement. And you know, I don't know if that's the same exact thing as airline cement, but that's definitely something that the Zodiac mentioned in his letter of like covering his fingertips with cement so that he couldn't be. The man had, if this is him, obviously we're just assuming, making the assumption, it is him. He's like, he's high on just assuming, making the assumption, if this is him, he's like, he's high on his own, his like, his own intelligence. Like he loves lording his own intelligence over people.

I don't know what the name of that it's called, but I know it's like a great, yeah, fantastic mega mine galaxy brain. She finally hears about Kovacs theory from her son. She takes a look at the letters in the Zodiac case, which she'd never really done before. She was there for the Zodiac case and she's from the area, so she remembers it for sure. But she didn't really take a big interest in it, probably because her dad didn't talk about it at all. And she said that when she saw them, immediately what she thought of, anything else her dad made or anything like that was

specifically the tone of the writing and the look of those squigglies is like the same ones from her dad's daily allowance game. Like that she was like, yeah, like that was what she said. Uh, and this from 2022 also to underline it, uh, without actually underlining it, uh, letting you draw the conclusions yourself, since that seems to be the smartest thing to do if you want your theory about something to be popular. Here is a direct quote from her with one last nugget of zodiac adjacent info

about her father's last days for Mathis to read. He died like 17 years ago in 2007. But here's a quote from Mathis and then Jesse, I got one for you afterwards. I went home when I learned my father was dying and stayed with him the last three to four months of his life and looked after him. And during that period of time,

my father had written reams of paper, little reams of paper, handwritten single space from the very top to the very bottom to both sides of the margin, handwritten and typewritten. So he had reams of handwritten paper and reams of typewritten paper, which my mother proceeded to tear up piece by piece, three or four pages at a time, into tiny little bits.

For a man who loved his writings and wanted people to read them, I found it shocking because he wouldn't let me read it. They wouldn't let me near them. He put his hand up with that look like, uh-uh, stay away. And she ripped it up piece by piece by piece by piece in front of me, in front of him, and he made no motion to stop. So whatever was written in those

papers, she was privy to and did know what was written and she made sure that no one else was going to see it. And if that doesn't make sense to you, here is another quote for Jesse to read that kind of shines some light on why that might be significant. I'm glad he's dead. I would not have come out and talked with Jared or done the interview. I would not have done it if he was alive because I believe he's guilty. I accepted the possibility. I accepted the probability that it was probably him, that he could have done that.

I'm grappling with that, you know? I'm grappling with that. You know, I'm grappling with that But the thing is if it is possible and they can prove it with fingerprints, then let's do it my god Yeah, so she's feeling kind of fucked up about it she's grappling with it because she loved her dad even though he was quite shitty to her when they were young and Yeah, and She said that both her and her mom never, if he was alive and even if her mom knew while they were alive and stuff back in the day, even if her mom knew, she never would have said anything because she was too loyal as a wife

and never would have wanted to blow it up. And that's the same reason why people were saying maybe the zine people didn't pipe up cuz you're asking about that earlier cobec was speculating that. If you are a hobbit alia reader or whatever and you begin to expect that paul door is the zodiac and you're already fighting against the fact that everybody who's a grown man who reads lord of the rings and is obsessed with it. I just think about that guy who cried at the star wars and everybody just like fucking dumped on him for no good reason. Like granted, yes, he had an extremely emotional reaction to something that's, you know, just a luxury in our lives. Well, you don't know what it meant to him as a kid. Right, right, right, right. But that's just what I mean. Like the the fact that everybody's ready to fucking jump down his throat and call him a loser, right?

If you can imagine being somebody who's on those secret forums, it's almost like kink or something at that point. You don't want anybody, and it's not socially accepted to be a nerd. And so if you find out that these people are murder, like this person is a murderer, maybe you just kind of like, maybe you just kind of keep it to yourself because you don't want to besmirch your good name any further. You know what I mean? So that's all possible.

And that's a powerful enough weapon to stop the Zodiac Killer from being found. So in the end, in the honor of the six phantom, the real guy who did the Zodiac murders, who may or may not be Paul Doerr. I just have one last question. Together with everything else you've learned over the past month of episodes, what do you think it means? What do you think happened here? What is your final thought on this case? Do we know who it was? Regardless of who it was, we're never going to catch him because he's likely dead or if he's not probably going to be dead very soon. But I think it still matters if we can prove who it was because it still would provide

closure to I think a lot of people. Not just people who are insanely obsessed. I'm just talking about just like victims and whatnot. Gloria Doher. Yeah, literally. Yeah, his own fucking flesh and blood. Not to mention the victims families. Uh, it is the more out of everything we've gone through. Uh,

he is the most convincing of all four or five people that like are out there with the other guy kind of close behind, uh, that we talked about Lee, uh, last week, but this guy does take it for me. Like it's just, he's pretty much eliminated because of DNA these days, which makes the Arthur Lee Allen like banner a little harder to get behind. But there's so much that's consistent. Yeah, it's just so much that's consistent. All it all fits into, into somebody who also was like just not,

I want to say not possible, but very difficult to get their hands on because of the very specific way he was operating. It's a weird vibe because everything about it screams. I don't want to say showmanship, but the idea of attempting to like there's branding. Oh yeah. And re-branding. It's like everything.

Like I'm better than you. Yeah. It's, it's the more you dive deep into it, the less diabolical and twisted and like, um, like evil it seems. And the more incel sad. Yeah. Like it's like real sad. And I think it goes to the core of what a lot of it is where it's like a lot of it really where it's like, a lot of it really is just pretty sad at the end of the day, not just about the murders, but that someone could get to the point where like their life was so messed up that this was like, you know what, this is my fun.

I'm going to like, like try to be a cool murder man. It's like, Hey, okay, it's weird. Like it's, it's, it's, we've done these in the past and we've walked away being like, wow, that person was crazy, but they like ate their friend and like, you know, they had a friend who had a funny name and like, that was cool. And then also like drove around the West, was cool. And then also like drove around the West, like shooting up the place. And this is just because it is so Mr. Policeman, please. Yes.

It's, I have given you all the vibes. I don't like it. It's like sad. And it, and it feels very like personal as like somebody who's like, success is based on what people think of them in the public. Uh, there's something about Zodiac that's like oddly relatable in a way that makes me. Sad. Yeah, it has, it has a modern killer vibe to it and that media and being, you know,

important is, is part of it more than just like I kill cause I like the taste of flesh. It's like, no, no, no, I'm killing because I want to be noticed as a killer, which is, it's a different take on it. And I, my least favorite, I don't know. He's the more he's a, he's a modern day version of the first modern day. Cause even back in the old west, they were people with their reputations and how many people they killed and how bad ass criminal they are. Like those people existed too, but they were relegated to their towns. Those people also had to, like if you had a rep, you had to hold up that you had the rep because you lived in the West and you didn't be shot in the back by some dude.

So you like hyped yourself up all day, every day. Killing was like kind of normal, weirdly. Like also like weirdly more normal than it is now by a lot. Zodiac was more, yeah, you're right. And Zodiac was just more of a ego, egocentric, like bullshit. And a lot of what he did was bullshit. Like he was like, the killing will destroy a school bus and he failed. It's like, all right, calm down. You're not going to do that.

The pre pro even the, even the cops, even the cops had the balls to be like, he said he's going to do this bullshit, but like, we don't think he's going to do it. That's crazy. Which makes me think that it's probably more than one person. And there's more like it's, it's copycats and people trying to get in on it and people, because if you don't know who they are, because this is like one of also the stupidest things you can do in a modern society is create a persona, hide behind the persona, never reveal yourself, but do it in a way that's like, anyone could say they're me.

And only, and only possible at a time where like the modern tech isn't around, like those waves are due back then when it was easier to hide and move off for the creator. I don't know, dude, just follow Q and on man. No, there's people like I am Q and it's like, yeah, fair. Okay. Cool. Like, yeah, no, I talked to my dude Q the other day and he told me that the storm is coming and you're like, yep. It's been a storm coming for a long time. Actually it's been building. You meant the weather. It's don't you understand? Oh, it's weird. It's weird

because the murders themselves, like as Ramada romanticized as they are by the movies, they almost feel like pre-production. You know what I mean? They almost feel like, well, he had to. Again, in two of them, he failed at his task. He was trying to kill two people, and he would only kill one of them and left the other one alive

because he was too cocky to think he didn't finish the job or whatever. It's a weird take on it, but I understand what you mean. He couldn't finish the job. What a little bit. What I mean is like, you can let someone live. If I was a Zodiac killer, I would have aced out those kids like nothing. He's bad at everything, including the one thing he's trying to be good at. But again, I don't know. They're trying to be good at that.

I think he's trying to be good at marketing himself as being cooler than he is. That's what he's trying to be good at. He's just the hype. He's just got high. Yeah. Yeah. Like I say, this is kind of my final word on this. I think that Paul Doerr is the Zodiac. Um, however, there's other suspects. We talked about Arthur Lee Allen a bit. We can talk about Richard Geicovsky some more. There's other ones. Ted Cruz is another one we can talk about. He's not a real, I heard about that. Yeah. Not a great suspect, but nevertheless, I could tell you about how I think Ted Cruz should be put in jail for as long as you want. But I will like in the style of JFK, if there's interest in the Zodiac case still, I would

be willing to come back and do like the Geickowski files the the Lee Allen files if you want more if you're now that You are now that you are familiar with the like bullet points of this case You know I can knock out a one episode sort of like rundown on like why this guy is or isn't a good suspect If that's the type of episode that you like but honestly, I think I said what I want to say about the Zodiac Killer Thank you to Jarrett Kovac. Thank you to Robert Graysmith. Thank you the Zodiac Killer. Thank you to Jarrett Kovec. Thank you to Robert Graysmith. Thank you to Dave Toskey. Thank you to David Fincher.

Thank you to Deanna. Thank you to Mathis for helping me get this episode together. Thank you to Jesse for putting up with my nonsense. Thank you to most of all to everybody who actually worked. Yeah, thanks to everybody who worked on the case, researched the case, made breaks in the case, to the families of the victims in the case to the families, the victims, the suspects who have no choice but to be connected to this and to all the crazy attention it probably brings them.

Please leave them alone. Let them be in control of their lives. Not a mob of hungry strangers. Even if the mob means well, it doesn't matter. They still need to be able to live their lives even though we're talking about them. See you next time with another episode in the sequence patreon.com slash to my pod. I love you Hello everybody, welcome back to the Jaluminati Podcast. As always, I'm one of your hosts, Mike Martin, joined by the... I don't know who they are there's two what Terrence Hill and Bud Spencer

no Neo and Trinity oh I don't understand and I probably never will let me just tell you right now that there's two Leon Kennedy and Claire Redfield I'm telling you I think he literally just looked up famous duos. Cheech and Chow. And it's just been going through the list ever since. I'm trying to dig deep. Which one of you is Dick Powell? Me?

Your name's Jesse Cox! Hello everybody, welcome back to the Jaluminati Podcast. As always, I'm one of your hosts, Mike Marhen, joined by Alex and Jesse. shooting star across the sky that's actually a UFO.