Chilluminati Podcast - Episode 288: The Monroe Institute Part 3 - Scams and the Holographic Universe

Episode Date: March 2, 2025

MERCH - http://www.theyetee.com/collections/chilluminati All you lovely people at Patreon! HTTP://PATREON.COM/CHILLUMINATIPOD Factor - http://www.factormeals.com/factorpodcast Hero Forge - http://www.heroforge.com Jesse Cox - http://www.youtube.com/jessecox Alex Faciane - http://www.youtube.com/user/superbeardbros Editor - DeanCutty http://www.twitter.com/deancutty Show art by - https://twitter.com/JetpackBraggin http://www.instagram.com/studio_melectro SOURCE - https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/cia-rdp96-00788r001700210016-5.pdf https://www.monroeinstitute.org/pages/general-info https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/900681223

Have you received a red light or speed camera violation in the mail? Vehicle owners can pay or dispute online. Learn more at toronto.ca slash aps. Yaw yaw yaw yaw yaw yaw yaw! Oh hey! Look who's back from their vacation to Scotland. Hey Mothman. Hey Chupacabra! Hey Frisco Nightcrawler! My greetings young lad. What a beautiful Polaroid camera you've got there. Such beautiful leather straps and so well-weathered.

So, don't keep us waiting. How was Edinburgh? Actually, this is so crazy to say, but I might have... met someone. It was nice, like the opposite of a notorious national-scale bridge disaster. Wow, that's so sweet! It's a shame they're all the way in Scotland though. Yes, there is no better feeling than weird, beautiful love between two dark entities of fate. For your friend to make their way to us, it would be glorious.

Yeah! I hope they write me back! Mothman 2, now with green eyes! Get your clone today at theyeti.com the Chaluminati Podcast episode 288. As always, I'm one of your hosts, Mike Martin, joined today by the Stephen Hawking and Leonard Susskind of LA, Jesse and Alex. Okay. So what, uh, two very, very, very smart men. That's true. That's true. Two. And one of them is really good at poker or at least the hologram version of him is hologram one is on the enterprise. Yeah. Cause he had four sevens.

Yep. Remember that I do 47. I got you a guard I'll be susskin because I feel like I feel like I'm like more of a susskin like Dresser like he's like like Jesse it like looks together more than I do I feel like I feel like I'm more of a goofy dresser and I feel like susskin has more of a like deranged wizard vibe Take that sure, you know, yeah, whatever yeah, whatever All right Like which you were like which theoretical physicists are you and I was like I think Thank you, but I want to be Steven I am like, okay, I don't know what I expected honestly out of that. Like I don't really know. He's giving out a thank you, but I don't know that I want to be Stephen Hawking.

I'm like, okay, I don't know this other guy. I'm trying to distance myself from Stephen Hawking after the things I learned about him from that documentary or whatever it was. That's what I'm saying. Like, I don't know that I want to be, but like, all right. Well, he's going to be a brief moment in this episode. So that's a reason. Stephen Hawking?

Yeah. Okay. What is this? All right. I want to be Carl Sagan is really who I want to be. Like the Mr. Rogers of science. You know, like I just want to be Mr. Rogers. Oh, can I, you could be Carl Sagan and I'll be Mr. Rogers. We would have, we would be like, who's sweater is more comfortable. Both our sweaters are pretty comfortable. Do you want to wear my sweater? Let's switch sweaters. Yes. Let's talk about things that are true. Let's teach the children and take care of people that need it.

Let me put my shoes on first. What if our entire physical reality isn't true, Alex? Dude, I've been thinking that ever since agent Smith came out of the matrix, bro. Dude, like how, how'd he get out of that matrix? That shouldn't happen. What if cyberpunk 2077, the game is actually a game. Do you ever think about that? We're walking. What? Wait, what? Like obviously it's a game. It's like for me to play in the game, but like V,

what if V is in a game? You get it? Cyberpunk twist of like, it was all a dream simulation. I must stress Alex. You're on the same wavelength as a dude. Who's like, do you ever think that like lamps and video games use electricity, dude? They do, bro. They fucking do, bro. They just don't light up tongues. Then the tongues is just a graphic, bro. Listen, dude, I got this laser leveler hang on take some PCP real quick hold on.

Huh? What? PCP isn't that just like make you really angry? No I'm just it's just not what you should do before you try to explore the universe customer. Do not take PCP actually you know what blanket statement don't take PCP at all. We good with that? actually, you know what? Blanket statement. Don't take PCP at all. I can't wait for the Reddit posts. It's like, actually,

I was taking PCP for 10 years. I take it all the time. I, this guy, I am the proof. If I, if my personal experience is different than what those three other individuals say, they are charlatans. I can't wait for the the the username is gonna be like PCP bro PCP warrior 60 pieces PC pieces yeah punches his way off the cross he rips the cross down his arms his hands off style like fucking a saw challenge. Oh my God, brother. What's happening anymore?

We're like off the rails and we haven't even gotten on the rails to begin with yet. Dude, that's the perfect place to start with the Monroe Institute. Yeah, I guess that's correct. Also a great place to start at patreon.com slash Illuminati pod where you give us you, that's where the rails are made. The rails if you if you want to connect the East Coast and the West Coast with the rails finally after all this time, head to patreon.com.

If you have a bunch of foreign workers you don't care about you throw them at railroad tracks. Hey that sounds like something a lot of Americans will be interested in doing right now. I think all three of us are very tired for different reasons. Today is going to make for a really, really interesting episode. I'm ready to surf into zone 10, bro. That's where I'm ready to go. Yeah. Oh, okay. No Zen 10 zone 10 from why I'm not doing this. I don't want to know.

Episode while we will talk about our own individual experiences with meditation for those of us who gave it a shot. Um, I don't know if you did or not, Jesse, I'm probably very curious. I'm very curious. You did the first one. No, I, I, no, I tried meditation, like meditation. You weren't like there with their, like the original, like the videos. Yeah. I didn't go to any websites or do anything. I just went to the video link that was sent to me. Yeah, perfect. Great. Well, you gave it. That's all that matters. And maybe we'll get to some of our listener stories. Oh, there's been a ton of great ones on the site.

Oh my God, like so many different, so many wild things. Yeah. Some cool stuff. There's a bit last episode that I had to cut because we were running up to two hours that we're going to cover and it won't be another two hours to cover it. But it's kind of one of the crux of the Monroe Institutes what I would consider they consider the legitimacy the CIA paper and Very particularly as you brought up in episode 1 Alex for a very long time The CIA paper on the Monroe Institute was missing a single page In its entire an entire release page 25

page in its entire release, page 25. So we're going to talk about that CIA paper, the missing page, which will, I promise you, lead into logically that we might live in a holographic universe. Okay. I'm just saying take that, take it, sit on it. The allegory of the cave, baby. We've always been living in a hologram, my man. You know what I'm saying? I do want to talk about the CIA paper in particular for a little bit and whether or not it actually gives any legitimacy to the Monroe Institute in the way that many people tend to use as like, you know, what is it? What is it? The pointing to you when you point to authority as like reason for something being legitimate, just being like, Oh, see the CIA.

Appeal to authority. Like, yeah. They wrote a thing. Is that means it's real? New York Times covered it. It's real. And I think at the center of the Monroe Institute, this is what lies at their narrative. The CIA release document is what so many people on the online world point to as the reasons

is all, you know, real. It was penned in the early 1980s by US Army Lieutenant Colonel Wayne M. McDonnell and the paper was an academic kind of like not just an academic exercise, but it was an earnest attempt by the government to understand whether the techniques pioneered at the Monroe Institute could unlock untapped human potential in the world of consciousness. McDonald's report was super meticulous. You can read it in its full. Now. I've linked it and last episode in the sources. So feel free to go back. Yeah. The 30 paid report. Um,

it dissects the methods developed by the R by Robert Monroe with precision that it's kind of like, it's almost very analytical for something that is so it really demystifies and lames it up a lot if you read it like if you read it it kind of makes it does not do any favors to it in terms of like the way that you know just to for lack of a better term like culty literature kind of like mystifies shit a bit yeah to it seem cool. Yeah. I think this is very like a clinical. He's just like, he says there are different focuses. The focuses are this. It's like this type of thing. Like this and this being talked about last week, really way in and it breaks

down to how can we use this in warfare? Like, and that's kind of how where it goes down to for a while. I will say I will say it does kind of vibe him out though, by the end, I feel like. I feel like he- No, the, the, the, the, his conclusion, which I would recommend reading if you're not going to read anything, read his conclusion. He does have this, he walks away going like, huh, like almost like, like that's kind of like the, that's the vibe of like, this shit makes sense in a way that it shouldn't. Yeah. But it is the, the, it isn't a, this is a guy who is

vouching for this. I think that's the mistake here is that this is a dude who most of the paper is him just re-explaining the stuff that he is being told. Yes. And so it isn't like he's not making judgment calls on any of this. He's straight up being like's like, I mean, we try. He's trying. He's trying it, but he's not really like being like the paper. That was enough. The paper was enough for the military to then send people to attend the Monroe Institute, which then took those lessons and used in the Stargate program. Basically, that's it.

That's all there is to it. There's no more than just in general. Yeah. Most government or military, basically. That's it. That's all there is to it. The thing is, is that just in general, most government or military organizations will do stuff like this. Like if they can get an edge, they'll do it. And so this is just another example of that. I feel like the idea of the Monroeans just saying like the CIA, see they like all this is doing is they studied them and reported out the information. It isn't like he studied them and said, they're great. Even even that is generous. Should I say, I would say the Monroe Institute doesn't say look, the CIA does it. They don't really say much, but the people online that are all about the Monroe Institute or whatever always point to the paper in the CIA.

It's the same vibe as like UFO, like pointing to like memos and shit. It's like the same vibe. Yeah. And even like, uh, and it's a very popular YouTube channel out there and his videos are very entertaining, but Y files is another one that did kind of a whole breakdown of this thing. And he even has some information. I would, I don't want to headstate say wrong, but incorrect. Hey, by the way, by the way, sidebarbar Why files get that a I slop off your fucking channel now? Oh, yeah with an I'll watch you again

You are great great Content get that slop off of there. Yeah agreed. His content is is good and AI thumbnails are crazy But yeah, we're gonna I'm to address that whole thing, Jesse, because I agree with you and I want to break, I want to give this the due that I wanted to give it last episode, but didn't want to run three hours doing this. The paper itself delved into the mechanics of brainwave synchronization, noting when the two hemispheres of the brain are supposed to operate in unison, individuals might be able to access deeper states of awareness that bordered on what I think a lot of people would consider metaphysical.

Again, though, this isn't, I must stress, this isn't tests he's run. This is things that he's read or been told. This is how it works. And he did it. Oh, he did it, but he was like, I don't know if that even worked, but like, it's interesting. Right. This is. That's absolutely the point of it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Again, if you read it, and that's the next sentence I have in my, in my script here is

his analysis is both very skeptical, but there's a curiosity tangent to it. But that's me on the show. That's, that's basically the vibe is I'm like, I don't believe it, but like, it's cool. That's probably the weirdest thing he's ever been asked to do like this. Yeah, absolutely. You know what I mean? Like he's like- All the information, all the cool designs and the cool graphs and stuff, that's just information he has been presented that he's reporting out on. It doesn't, I think the fallacy here that a lot of people online are using when they talk about this is this guy is presenting this as truth. Now he's presenting what he's been told to the government so the government

can make the determination. Yeah, I can explain Terrence Howard's math to you. I can, but he's not going to make it real no matter what. And I, right here as I think this is a good quote from the paper that shows his more, like I said, kind of analytical approach to this, where he says, quote, the process described herein appears to facilitate a controlled alteration of consciousness, one that might, with further study, yield practical applications for intelligence and strategic operations. It's exactly what, like what you're saying. That's exactly what he says in the paper. And like I said before, people are interested. Read it. It's worth reading. Obviously, beyond the scientific inquiry,

the report also talked about a little bit of like an undercurrent of potential militarization of these techniques designed to liberate our spies' minds to maybe be able to spy. Again, this was also during the Cold War, this was the U S government believed Russia was doing. So therefore they started doing it in reaction to the rumors of Russia doing it. And I think the evidence of Russia starting it is like wishy washy at best. I'm not entirely sure on that, but, um, the very tools that the Monroe had created for like what he considered personal growth and exploration were being examined for their ability to enhance performance in high stakes environments,

espionage, battlefield decision making, it reminds me, which reminds me of Baskala with battle meditation. And she's just like, on this and we're on a ship, we got a general in their tent, battle meditating for his forces on the field. But despite the rigorous analysis, the report stopped quite short

of recommending a full scale program. Instead, it laid the groundwork for what would later evolve into more expansive projects like the US Army's remote viewing studies that I talked about, Stargate, which would be a domain that once the public learned about would capture their attention up until present day. They're still, Stargate is something they point to all the time. And people like Lou Elizondo further that as well, you know, in a way that feeds the red meat almost to the base of people who refuse to like be suspect of any of these programs actually having worked. And for many who followed Monroe's work, the existence of CIA papers,

this offers, like you CIA papers offers a potent blend of validation, but enough enigma that you can play around with it for a while. They reveal that what was once dismissed as fringe science had indeed finally captured the attention of some of the most formidable minds in the government. However, while the papers do demonstrate that the boundaries of human consciousness might be far more permeable than conventional wisdom would suggest, they do show that the boundaries of human consciousness might, and is a big heavy might, be far more permeable than conventional wisdom would suggest. They do so as much by reflecting an era eager to probe unconventional ideas due to the Cold War with a foreign enemy. There is a reason that is beyond just conventional curiosity for this.

They're doing, like you said earlier, everything. They're grabbing onto any string, anything from paranormal to science-based and seeing if there's even a hint of something there that they can use. I mean, that's one of the big like occult things from World War II that people to this day still think about is like Hitler obsessed with the occult. So we got his SS to go like look for occult artifacts. Thank God America, because we were like, yeah, we were like, we got to do that too. And so American people went out to go like, look, it didn't mean it was real. It just meant that if they were going to do it, we got to do it too, because who knows? And

I feel like that's the case here where you can have people be like, there's something going on with the mind. And then all these other programs spark from it. Cause they're like, we have to check. Yeah. Like we'd be a fool to let the Russians have that. So they just did it. And who knows? The mind is, is fascinating, but not in the useful way that they wish it was, you know? Sure. Yeah. It's like, if this was about Scientology, for example, right? This report would be like a cold reading of like the lore of Scientology, basically, right? Which is what this is, is just the lore. And like from that perspective, right?

Like at least for me reading this, though, you know, I understand the appeal to authority fallacy, and I understand like, what this does mean, what this doesn't mean with regard to legitimizing it in any real way, you know, I do think that the fact that in investigating it, he found the teachings to be consistent with itself and earnest, you know, is at least in the most vague sense, quite a vote of confidence towards this thing being non, like predatory, let's say what you but what year was this? The 80s, like 82 or like this guy I believe is alive or was

recently recently died. I have I have the paper here. Hang on. Look at the year. 1983, June 9 1983. It's an exciting time for me right now in the tabletop RPG world. On the one hand, I have a brand new tabletop RPG show coming out not too long for now. And on the other hand, I've just brought on two brand new players who have never played D&D before into my home campaign. All that to say is I'm in need of minis badly.

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And if you're like me and have a 3d printer and you need to get like a hoard of minis now, you can even buy the digital files for a nice cheap price too. So just head over to heroforge.com use code chill on checkout. If you decide to get anything and just check it out because that place is awesome. Thank you here for it for sponsoring this episode, by the way, again, even though I said it before. So my big, like the line that, that I am stuck at is I firmly to my core believe this dude,

like Monroe himself and this whole thing and this guy coming out, I like Monroe died in the nineties, I think. Yeah. Nineties. So like he was alive during this time. I firmly believe there is a pre and post Monroe. Like I think the, at the time I bet this dude was like, let me tell you some really cool stuff and here's how the mind works. And it was very interesting. And I would make the assumption. And again, this is just an assumption that that the modern day version of that, that's

like, look what the CIA said, like that seems like a different vibe than what that would have been in 83 where this guy got to experience it. It probably was a lot more real then as a concept, because there was actually someone who cared about the idea of it. That meditation you guys were talking about last week, the idea of like what they can do for you versus what I think it is now, which is like just a business. Sure. And I mean, that's the other, to make like the part with meditation too, is like, remember meditation isn't like a cure all for anything. It's just a tool.

Like a massage is not like gonna cure your illness, but it's still something that they charge. Yeah. They still charge you to do it. And it's not a scam, right? Right. Exactly. Yeah. So, but, but, but, but, but the massage you can get like there is, you can see the process. Sometimes you can like, Sometimes, but it's also steeped in like Eastern medicine and things that are like totally folk based like, Oh, I would say that there's a lot of that extra

step in massage. Like there's a lot of extra things they do that I think is total bullshit. Yeah. But that's exactly this. That's exactly what I'm saying with this too, is it's like, even if what you believe is happening is simply that you're breathing more calmly and like thinking in a present way, and that's all that is helping, all that is helping you, right? Like the reason that they're buying into this for whatever reason is that like, and true to the tenets of the program is it's like, reality itself is what you make it. And so it's not so much that you need to buy into

it or not. It's that you get the effect either way. It's just whether or not you think what's happening is really happening or not. And I don't think that, I don't think that it's invalid. I don't think that effect is invalidated by either one, if you know what I'm saying. Sure. No, but I feel like it has that same, like, again, going back to that, it just has like a feeling that is uncomfortable to me. Cause the same way I get around, a lot of the times when you think about like organized religions. Like, bro, that's what I was going to say. I feel that way at church, but it's like, I'm not going to be like church is fucked. Sure, but it's like, there's something about it where meditation as a whole seems like a personal

thing you could do yourself, but the idea that you're going to these people and they're going to tell you how to do it right. But again, if it's all in your head and they're promising more than just, as far as I'm aware, they're promising more than just getting right with yourself. They're promising the feeling. And're promising. The feeling problem. I don't think they're promising, but I don't think they're promising it. I think they're saying they're selling though. They're saying you could get there to something better than just like I meditate and I feel

good afterwards. There's like telling you if you pay for packages, we can help you unlock shit. I don't that doesn't seem legit. If that's really how it is, I think that's wild, but I think like, for example, homeopathic medicine or crystals or whatever, you know, when I go to the shop and I buy the crystal for hope, or I buy the crystal for prosperity, or I buy the crystal for tolerance or whatever

that I'm gonna buy, like, am I buying it because I'm going to buy. Like, am I buying it because I'm going to come back and be mad if it is I don't literally get richer? Or is it more like tarot, where part of it is like just getting your brain to do it? You know what I mean? Like, if it's a framework that, that is it, like, and you are thinking it, and it's saying, you're creating it in your own brain by vibrating to these it like and you are thinking it and it's saying you're creating it in your own brain by vibrating to these frequencies which you are in fact doing like

you are using binaural break you know beats you're using binaural beats to like actually vibrate your brain matter like I don't like it's like, everything about it is true except whether or not you believe magic is real. Right. Like it's like basically that. I think that the thing I would say in, you know, it's kind of a pretty good guy, right? You know, at least like if you buy a crystal or you get Tarot or whatever, at least you get like a fun little thing to keep afterwards. This is like, it is only inside of you. No, you know, you're getting only what you give. And it just seems like one of those, like it's the perfect, they don't have to deliver anything. Like if I don't, if I don't like, like, let's say I take out the Eastern

mysticism or whatever is in there, right. And I'm just Tony Robbins, right? Isn't that just the same thing? 100%. I mean, it's, but the thing is, is that is reaffirming self-help. And it isn't, it doesn't mean that it's good or bad. I would say that I definitely think Tony Robbins and the, I would 100% say, and this is me, this is just me, not the podcast that that is also kind of a scam. So it's. Help books are kind of scamming. It's definitely like, it's definitely like not. Object. Objective. It's not definitely not objective.

I don't want to interrupt my, because this is a good conversation, but it's something we're going to get to is that these other things that they offer that Jesse is talking about, which is wholly worth bringing up a vast majority of them, um, with the exception of a sleep study, binaural beats, uh, study meditation guide were introduced after Robert Monroe's death. And that's what I was getting to in the beginning. It feels like there's a line where it was like that's a problem. Good. He was a dude trying to do a thing. And then it became scammy. Going back to Jesus. Yeah, dude. I'm with you on this.

We're going to, we're literally going to talk about like that, where that, not only where that came from, but some of the other shady shit they did with missing page 25, um, these new owners, uh, for more modern day shit. Um, but that's But that's important. There's basically four programs during Robert Monroe. He dies, new leadership takes over, and in 2003 is when they began introducing new audio programs that are weird energy healing bullshit. That like is the problem.

But during the Monroe era, when this was more about him exploring and studying was when, you know, they still work with government stuff now, I guess. But like back then it was more about the binaural beats, which is like the stuff that I care about in terms of just like what they produce. But then yes, absolutely once he passed, different people took over. And it's like what happened to Blizzard after they got bought by Activision or, you know, over time, like, you know, new, new CEOs. That's yeah. I mean, that's, uh, that's kind of,

that's kind of like out of my hands at that. That's kind of out of my hands at that point though. You know what I mean? Like a hundred percent, but that's, we're going to get there because these CIA papers kind of lead to that direction because the CIA papers, no matter what, like however you look at them, they were not, they do not offer definitive empirical confirmation that the techniques work. Instead, they present a detailed theoretical analysis of the process, exploring how Monroe's methods might be able to induce altered states of consciousness

through mechanisms like binaural beats and hemispheric synchronization. That also doesn't mean it doesn't work either. There is just a question mark that there is a possibility. And essentially, I don't think the man was being disingenuous. No, I don't think Robert Monroe was being disingenuous. That's something that I wanna really make clear

about this is like, I'm defending it only to the degree that like, like I can, I can't speak for like what business interests came into this organization after it was founded and the research was done by Monroe, but I genuinely do believe that Monroe was not trying to fleece you. I think he was genuinely trying to write something that he believed was true. That's what I think. Yeah. I think because as we talked about too, when we were talking about Monroe, some of his experiences truly just felt like, again, early in episode one, it felt like

he was neurodivergent in a world where that wasn't something that was known in the way he described himself as it because he was like, I felt different. Felt different, had a different, related to things differently. Yeah. Feelings he had that he has ascribed maybe to like these metaphysical things, when a lot of people who meditate feel the same exact things that he was feeling and they might just be his interpretation of certain things. But yeah, getting back to the script and doing so, like they, while they acknowledge the boundaries of human consciousness might be permeable, the document stops super short event doing anything conclusive.

And so, when these CIA papers were declassified in 2003, the big thing that got everybody's attention while it was an interesting paper was that one page was conspicuously absent, page 25. Officially, the CIA has never provided a detailed public explanation for why this page has been or was removed. In fact, CIA responses to Freedom of information act requests consistently claimed that the agency did not have page 25 at all. In other words, like it just like, so they just never, they said, they said it was never given to them, right? Like they've never had it in the first place. Yeah.

Yeah. Which makes it, which is weird. I don't want to say it doesn't make sense because isn't it, isn't it him? Isn't he CIA? Who? The guy writing the paper? No. So we're going to get to that. People call this the CIA paper. It is not written by the CIA. It has, it's a, it's a wrong title. Listen, this is why I want to talk about this today. They didn't pay for the paper. Let me get, we're, we're getting there.

We are literally going to get there. This is why I said this is why I was like, we couldn't go. We had two hour episode last week. We have to talk about this. So years later, a man by the name of John Greenwald, you know, the black vault I talk about all the time. He's the FOIA request guy all the times. He specifically started requesting page 25

and the CIA informed him that they couldn't locate the page and even quote unquote lost his initial request, eventually suggesting that he asked the US Army Intelligence and Security Command for instead. That was what they told him. US Army and Security Command, INSCOM, I-N-S-C-O-M. INSCOM, okay. That's where they were like, that's just basically completely like ignored for some weird reason. And of course this fills, like this fuels people's conspiracies about it. Because it implied that the document in the CIA's archives was incomplete, that it was being left out on purpose, likely because the report originated not from the CIA, but Army Intelligence. And the CIA's copy that they got from Army Intelligence may not have included the page.

The CIA didn't do this study. It was the Army Intelligence that did this study and the CIA was then interested in the Army Intelligence's study and requested it from them, which is where the write-up comes from. So that makes an internal much more sense though. So it is an internal CIA document that they received. Right, but it's not done by the CIA agent that went there. The CIA document is a scan of an army document missing one page.

And army intelligence straight up, their whole point is to do stuff like this. Like if something can be used or we can do something, we must, like we have, that's our job. So that, this checks out completely that, oh, okay, this guy did a write-up on it. Yes. And so no, and on the, the, the paper itself, there was no classification mark or redaction code that was given on the release file. The page 25 was literally just missing. It went from 24 to 26. And the CIA's official position had been that the agency just could not provide page 25 because it didn't have it. They just kept saying, we don't fucking have this piece of paper. I don't know what you want us to say.

Obviously it varies on whether people believe that's true or not. I mean, we've seen how FOIA works many times and John Greenwald has waited 15 years just to get denied for something that he then later learned they did have. But it doesn't mean that this is not just a clerical mistake as well.

And in the absence of any official explanation, researchers, journalists, and just curious people started proposing theories as to why page 25 was missing. And over two decades, this missing page essentially just became a holy grail artifact that was either going to fully prove or fully disprove that this shit works one way or the other. Some people believe there was being intentionally held withheld by the CIA, assuming that this AI must have deliberately kept page 25

because it contained super sensitive and profound information. To be fair, in reading the document, it literally is like, the vibe is like, and there is one more big secret, and the big secret is, anyway, as I would say, it's is one more big secret. And the big secret is anyway, as I was saying, it's literally like that kind of vibe in the document, like, yeah, we're gonna get like the there is a like page 24 ends off on a literal like cliffhanger.

It's like the big secret is not gone yet. It's very, very weird. Because it like because it ends on such a weird cliffhanger too, people just start fucking thinking and like, maybe the very nature of reality is hidden in that page or encounters with these other alien-like creatures the CIA must have done, they must have made contact in some way. Maybe even just like, it's just because page 25 has the instructions on how to become an astral projection master in these five simple steps like people truly started thinking the craziest shit about page 25 Others believed it was like an author omission test theory

Which is a tongue-in-cheek kind of theory that suggests is that LTC Wayne McDonald the guy that wrote it Left page 25 out on purpose as a kind of like test or joke on purpose as a kind of like test or joke. It depends on who's making a post about it. The idea was that if someone truly mastered the out of body gateway technique, they could astrally retrieve the missing information and then report back to what it was said. So this is almost like a fancy test for him to discover. That's some internet bullshit. No way. Yeah, no shit, it's internet bullshit.

But it's how quickly that shit catches on and then propagates and becomes its own theory. That is so frustrating. It is so frustrating in a way where it's literally that thing where you were talking about Jesse one time. I don't remember exactly what it was, the context, but it was some game developers were like, in the cut scene, this guy just walks off in the middle of the cut scene, dead space.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, we don't know what happens to that guy. They don't explain what happens, but the fans are going to talk about it. And that keeps people interested. And it's like, you know, that's type of shit. You could, I was able to like track down one of the original posts about it. And it's so clearly meant to be a joke, but then it just gained attraction other forms over time. I mean, it's literally the QAnon phenomenon.

Yes! And so then, but then there's a more realistic explanation. It's probably a clerical error. It might have been just like FOIA requesters was that page 25 absence was just due to bureaucratic mistake or copying error. And rather than any deliberate secrecy and Given that the Gateway report was part of the CIA's project Stargate later in the future Which was made public as well

It's possible the CIA's archive Copley simply just never included the page when it was it or is misfiled or something like it literally just could have been an oops mistake that page 25 is missing because again, there's no could have been an oops mistake that page 25 is missing because again, there's no clarification. There's no like code number or like top secret thing, any marker that this is like super, super classified or anything. It's just missing, which is like very weird. And a lot of transparency activists suspected that that's the case as well. Like clerical mix ups happen. And this is just one of those. It's just so conspicuous is the one thing about it. It's so cinematically conspicuous that it almost feels like it was made to like draw attention a little bit just because of how it's like, what is the literal cut?

What's the literal, what's the literal quote? I wanted to read off page 25 in its entirety. So we'll just do that now. All right. So I'm going to pick up with the last sentence of page 24 and the eternal thought or concept of self, which results from this self conscious, consciousness serves the, and that's where page 24 ends. It's like the conclusion. Yeah. It's like, and then it goes to page 26, which is a whole new topic entirely, which is motivational aspect, why we're doing this, which is military one, do this and this and this. So without further ado, then let's just do page 25, the mysterious page 25 that came out in 2021 through vice, which we will talk about how that happened. So recent.

After we read through page 25. So let's read that last sentence one more time. Or we'll just read the last paragraph so you have a better context. Okay. Context. That hologram is a mirror image of the Absolute in infinity, still exists outside time and space, but is one step removed from the Absol absolute and is the actual agent of all

creation and in parentheses all reality and the eternal thought or concept of self which results from this self-consciousness serves the Absolute as the model around which the evolution of time space revolves to ultimately attain a reflection of and union with Him with the capital H. That thought model, which perfectly reflects the essence of quote-unquote Spirit of the Absolute, fits the Christian metaphysical description of the Holy Spirit. Finally, our description of the universal hologram, the Taurus of creation and evolution, is neither new nor original. Its use as the figure of the universe, or creation developing in evolution, is found

in various stylized representations in virtually every religious system of antiquity, whether Eastern or Western derivation. Whether it's the stylized labyrinth once popular in the Hellenic world, the spiralized version of the Hebrew tree of life or its Hindu counterpart, or the Chinese spiral through the four-fold powers, the ultimate meaning is the same. Mystics the world over, it seems, have perceived the universal hologram in the same spiral form and have incorporated that intuitive knowledge in their religious writings from antiquity to the present.

20th century physics would seem to be revisiting insights belonging to mankind as far back as written records can take us. The only difference is that 20th century physics is using a left brain, linear, quantitative style of reasoning to approach the same knowledge which the mystics of old apparently acquired in holistic, intuitional, right brain style. As a tool in the hands of our left brain culture, Gateway would seem to be a promising method for achieving the intuitive, holistic type of interface with the universal hologram needed

to provide the context that thinkers like Einstein have thought in their labors to discover a unified field theory in physics. For persons in our profession whose concerns revolve around strategic issues, tactical questions and matters of managerial form in systems, access to a new world of intuitive perception and self-reflection would seem to offer in the long term the means by which to know in a truly objective way. This is so because the self-imposed limitations to balanced perception and objective logic which our cultural and personal psychological subjectivity imposes when we use the strictly left-brain thinking style

could be offset by the holistic form of perception associated with altered states of consciousness. To the extent that we come to perceive ourselves fully in the context of that portion of the universal hologram, which is the reflection of ourselves, to that extent we release ourselves from the prison of subjectivity. It was axiomatic to the mythic philosophers of old that the first step in personal maturity could be expressed in aphorism, quote, know thyself. To them, the education of a man undertook, as its primary step, achievement of an introverted focus so that he learned what was within himself before attempting to approach the outside world. They rightly assumed that he could not effectively evaluate and cope with the world until he fully understood his personal psychological balance.

The insights being provided by 20th century psychology in this context through the use of various kinds of personality testing seem to be a revalidation of this ancient intuition. But no personality test or series of tests will ever replace the depth and fullness of the perception of self which can be achieved when the mind alters its state of consciousness sufficiently to perceive the very hologram of itself which it has projected into the universe in its proper context as part of the universal hologram in a totally holistic and intuitional way." So that's why you asked that question at the beginning of the show, huh? Correct. So really quick, are those flourished words or is that a

dude being like, the brain is jacked into the interdimensional matrix of reality. That's why you are your brain and you are like, this is a episode. I hope you are fucking high as fuck for, and if you're not going to smoke because we are about to We're gonna talk about it. Jesse's the reason I brought up Stephen Hawking and physicist cuz that's where we're going The last part of this is this would seem to be one of the real promise of the gateway experience from the standpoint of its

Ability to provide a portal through which based on met a month's if not years of practice The individual may pass in his search to find self, personal effectuality and truth in the larger sense. Basically saying, you know, this is another way of what people have been doing for centuries, millennia, Eastern, Western. That's basically what it says. But does he also mean any truth?

In a mean, in a solid question. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Cause like he does talk about, cause then it, then it goes from that to the motivation, why they care. And that's all the military shit. Like what is Putin thinking? We know now they want to spy where they are, what they're thinking, what they're doing because our brain has reached one. Yeah. But that has reached on this. Yeah, but that's not how it is. And that's what he basically is like, this is gonna take forever.

This is gonna take years if they wanna do it the way that they're presenting, which is this internal weighing. Assuming it's real, yeah, assuming it's real. You have to look inward and we wanna be able to use it as a weapon. Now. Yesterday. Yeah, we wanna be able to use this yesterday.

Let's just stare at the goats instead gentlemen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very much. Listen, as a middle-aged man, or at least almost middle-aged time, how does it work? I, you know, try to lead a healthier life or at least I have been trying to lead that healthier life, but I need a little help sometimes. And as a guy who sits on his ass all day, but also works all the time while he's sitting there, I don't always have time to prepare that kind of nutritious meal.

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Thank you again to factor for sponsoring today's episode, but that's so that's paid, that's the mythical missing page 25, the swirl. It's like, that's what was filling the void of these theories that people thought work. You know, this thing might help the instructions on how to astrally project. Now, how did we exactly get page 25? And it's another story that throws the Monroe Institute into a weird kind of sketchy place with its owners in this time. Basically, while no CIA or army official publicly came forward to explain the missing page, the organization that originally inspired the report, the

Monroe Institute, eventually shed light on the mystery. The Monroe Institute had its own copy of the full report the entire time. And this is due to a Vice investigation, a vice article, like go is a great article. According to a vice investigation, Monroe Institute staff revealed that page 25 had been safely stored in their archives all along. In fact, they said the report, including the elusive page, was sitting buried in the Monroe Institute archives in favor of Virginia, forgotten in a barn somewhere. Basically, they said it's in a box in a barn somewhere. We could go find it and dig it up probably. They also noted that no one had actually come to them directly.

To like ask about it? Looking for this missing page before. Like this is the first time anyone had ever approached them about finding this missing page. They had no idea that that was missing? Now that's a separate question. That's a totally separate question, whether they had any idea people were looking for it or not. I don't know the answer to that.

So why was it missing? Because it's like anti-Christian? Do you think there's just a Christian army guy who was like, no, we don't want this? I think it was just a clerical error. Okay. I think it was as simple as that because there's a lack of anything top secret about it. Nothing about page 25. Blasphemy.

I guess, but there's other things in the report that could be considered blasphemous when he talks about the cosmic egg and all these other things. Pete There's no, yeah, there's no real like, go – Jared There's nothing on page 25 that's special. Pete It would achieve nothing, it would achieve nothing to leave the page out. Pete But yeah, he's also not saying this is what it is, he's saying this is what I've been told.

Pete This is what they're saying. Pete This is what it is. Jared Yeah. So like when, when they were contacted in 2021, the Monroe Institute leadership at the time acknowledged that, oh yeah, no, we actually have the page that you're interested in, but they were hesitant at first. Vice reports that the Institute's executives initially discussed leveraging the hype as a marketing opportunity, given the surge of viral TikTok videos that had gotten that taken place because people started finding the gateway experience online like

naturally. And so it started taking fire on TikTok and the Monroe Institute leaders were like, whoa, maybe we can ride this. They were like, we do have that page. We do have a page. Yeah, that's really it. And after they got to it, they didn't know we have that page. That's really it. And after they got to it, it doesn't mean we have a page. They do.

They did get onto a zoom meeting with vice though, the manager, I guess, or like one of the higher ends of Monroe didn't show for the, for the meeting. And after, and basically they were, the meeting achieved nothing. And they insinuated like, Hey, maybe we can make, we can use this as a way to like market it. Vice was not having that. And they basically just kind of let it go.

They were like, what? Ew. Why? Then within the Monroe Institute, there was a huge leadership shakeup and the people at the top were ousted and new people took. 2021? Yeah. Okay.

It happened not long afterward. And after that internal shakeup, the reason that what happened is vice, the people that were contacted them woke up to an email from the new leader with the entire report just sent to them. Like here. Fuck. I don't know what the fuck. No, seriously, they just say like, that's what the vice people said is like the new

leadership within the Monroe Institute just emailed them the report because they were looking for it. And I don't know if like they were going through email like what they were doing, but that's just what happened. And that's how we that's how vice got a hold of page 25 of that document because of this is weird internal shakeup of management. But it the damage had kind of been done already. The missing page 25 for 20 years. it was too late. People believe that the Gateway process might be this mystical thing.

Others believe that it was a bunch of like hokum bullshit. The stories of the Gateway experience and what people believe they were capable of doing had already taken fire on the internet. And very similarly to how we see the flight of AMH 370, still to this day repeatedly brought back this idea that it was kidnapped by aliens, even though it is definitively not. People still bring it up and that's the case for so frustrating, dude.

People point to this paper and say it's a CIA paper. It is not a CIA paper. People say 20 page 25 had all these missing magical things. And when you finally get it 20 years too late, it's really, it's, it's interesting, but it's nothing special. And so all of it already takes root and you mix that with leadership that seems to expand the Monroe Institute into this more questionable programs of energy, healing and weird shit after Robert Munsrow's death in the Monroe Institute and then looking for an opportunity to market afterward. The Monroe Institute in more modern day is certainly one to look at with a lot more doubt

and a shadow kind of been cast over it, but not to undo the work that Robert Monroe has done and the studies in binaural beats in his early work and what that has yielded. The problem is the story is so much more complicated than something being a scam or not. It is both at the same time while still being separate things entirely. And understanding the missing page incident in context, it's worth noting how government declassification in the FOIA processes also often work. When agencies declassify documents,

sensitive portions can be redacted, blacked out, removed. And so it's unusual for an entire page to be removed like that. And so that is kind of more evidence that it was a clerical thing. That should have been a sign. That should have been a sign. It's like a Phoenixenix right clue it should have been a sign that it was like to anybody reading it that it's not the original right exactly like so and and it very quickly

gets muddled and then in the thing runs and the narrative rather completely runs wild but in that report there are still valuable things and things that end up leading in a rabbit hole that I want to bring this to as we end and maybe talk about a little bit of our meditation and that is holographic reality and holographic science and this shit is so much fun goddamn I promise you this is so fucking worth it do you know much about holograms and like their discovery and what all that shit was about? I don't really know anything about them at all.

I, all I know is that one time the gorillas played a live show and it blew my mind. Well, the CIA quote unquote, the CIA paper. Also, do you remember that time that Will.i.am was like in the election coverage and he was a hologram that was crazy. What? No dude. Oh, that's because he was broadcasting from 3008 dude. I know. Right. Hold on. He looks like the emperor. Hold on. He looked like, he looked like Darth Sidious.

Do you think he, do you think when he phoned them, he went boom, boom, boom. And they're like, Oh, it was here. Hey, what's up buddy? He was like, not know what the boom. Boom. Are you sending us a link? And they're like, oh, it was here. Hey, what's up, buddy? He was like shit. Not Yes, I fucking am I'm like look at this fucking Picture dude, it's like pure comedy. It looks like it's from like idiocracy or something, dude What What the f- Okay, I don't remember this at all. It has the exact same vibe. Good God.

It looks like a Disney Channel effect. That was 2008! Yeah. He was in 2008 and they were 2008, dude! Oh my God, that joke landed in a way I didn't expect. So pleased. That's fantastic. All right, let's go back into the show.

He looks like a PNG dude. He looks like he's got. He does, he looks literally like a PNG stand in the middle of the room. He looks like he has outer glow on, dude. He looks like he has outer glow from Photoshop on it. Have any of you been to the mall lately by a jewelry store that has the fake woman

who's like, welcome to the jewelry? He looks like that. They have something like that in the movies that is absolutely upsetting. Oh, I hate that. It's the worst. So at the very, the first paragraph of page 25, it talks about Orlando Bloom and the time machine as technology. Sorry. Sorry. No, no, it's fine. Orlando Jones.

How to save my career. Sorry. The first paragraph page 25 suggests human consciousness and reality operate like a hologram. The report argues that modern physics is rediscovering insights long known to basically mystics. Namely that reality can be viewed as like a universal hologram in which each part reflects a whole. By using the gateway techniques which include the hemispheric synchronization brain waves, they may achieve a holistic intuitive state of consciousness that is supposed to interface with this universal hologram. Basically when their left and right brain hemispheres are in sync, one's awareness can

expand beyond the limits of ego and perceive itself as part of a greater whole, which sounds a lot like ego death on mushrooms. That's really what it sounds like. Which is fucking real. Correct. Yes. Correct. It's the same idea. The report suggests this allows a person to quote, know in a truly objective way by seeing themselves in context of the entire universal system rather than as an isolated subject.

The idea echoes like the ancient mystical admonition, know thyself, implying that true self-knowledge is internal. It's all inside, baby. The world is in you as it is outside, but you have to get right within you first. I love that. Yeah, that's kind of like where we go. But there's science behind some of this holographic stuff. While CIA analyst concludes that by transcending ordinary awareness, one may escape

the prison of subjectivity and experience a state of unity with a larger consciousness in the universe, there is some potential reality here. Now, in practical terms, this means the nature of consciousness might just be simply a holograph. Our mind is not just like isolated phenomenon. It's part of kind of a continuum. And here's a brief history of holography. The technique of recording and reconstructing fully three-dimensional images has its origins in the mid-20th century and has evolved dramatically with science since then. Focusing David by the name of Dennis Gabor's discovery in subsequent development. So in 1947, a Hungarian British physicist, Dennis Gabor, conceived the idea of the hologram

while trying to improve electron microscopes. He discovered the principle of quote unquote, wavefront reconstruction, which is the foundation of holography in a nutshell. In 1948, a year later, he coined the term hologram from the Greek holos and grama, which means whole message. Basically the hologram means whole message. His idea was to record not just the intensity of light like photography does, that's what photographs are, but also its

phase, thereby capturing a complete record of the light wave from an object. However, at that time, Gabor lacked a coherent light source like a laser. So, because it was just early, so his early holography experiments were way limited by the use of less ideal light sources. His pioneering work though, ahead of its time, earned him the 1971 Nobel Prize in Physics for his invention and development of the holographic method. Now, that's a whole ass other thing that we can get into, but it wouldn't be until the invention of the laser that holography would be pushed into our more modern understanding. And that happened in 1960 when the laser was invented and it would provide coherent light that would require to turn Gabor's theory

into a practical reality. That is so crazy to do. It gets so weird. It's like magic. Literally. This is where I'm like, oh, man, I don't know. This is weird shit. This is literally like with scientists. Scientists could finally record clear interference patterns and create

their own holograms. And in 1962, Emmett life in juris up next, at the University of Michigan. What? Yeah, dude, here I'll go to I'll copy paste his then you're trying to tell me up the next you go. No, yeah, jurors. Oh, maybe it's chores. You can try and tell me the next you go. No. Yeah. Oh, uh, maybe it's chores. I'm sorry. I should have looked up how you pronounce it, but I know. What's that sweet man? Yeah.

These two at the university of Michigan applied Gabor's ideas using, uh, laser beams and they produced the first laser transmission hologram of 3D objects achieving images with realistic depth and parallax. This is like the lithogram, it would look like a litogram or litograms. Yeah, so they were called. And around the same time in the Soviet Union, physicist Yuri Denisuk independently developed a holographic technique inspired by earlier color photography methods of Gabriel Lippmann. Denizia created the first white light reflection hologram in 1962, which could be viewed under ordinary light, not just laser light. And these parallel developments demonstrate

holography's potential. But what a hologram is, so a photo is a capture of light intensity, but it is a flat 2D image of a very particular spot. What a hologram is, is the capture of a light interference pattern. And when you look at a hologram, when you bend it around and stuff, you see a 3D image. You see the entirety of the image. What's unique about a hologram

is that every single shard of the hologram contains the whole of the information. So imagine you have a mirror that you pick up and you look in it and you can tilt it and you see a wonderful forest of trees. As you tilt it around, you can see the 3D image. Now you take that mirror, you drop it and shatter it, and you pick up a small shard. And while you pick up the small shard and bring it to your eye, you still see though through a more narrow perspective,

the entirety of that forest, even though the glass has been shattered, though the resolution may be much blurrier on a smaller piece. The entirety of light interference pattern information though is on every single bit of a hologram. The whole is a part of everything in a hologram. That's fucking weird. But it's true. It's just fucking science.

Holography rapidly advanced and by 1967, researchers had even made holograms of live subjects using pulsed lasers, brief high-powered laser bursts that quote unquote freeze motion. And in 1968, Stephen Benton invented the rainbow hologram, a technique allowing holographic images to be viewed in normal white light, producing a multicolored rainbow 3D image. So where holograms is quickly becoming colored, you know, like more detailed. How fast do we get to Will.i.am at the 2008 election? Yeah, I think it's like a 1972 discovery.

Got it. Yeah, okay. This innovation would end up paving the way for mass-produced holograms, like the shiny 3D security image on credit cards and stuff. Like that's a hologram. And by 1970s and 1980s Methods to emboss holograms onto foil and plastic were being developed making holography Ubiquitous in security and commerce. That's where like the little like I said, the holograms are on your cards And so Dennis Gabor having cracked the code in 1947

The field after all of that happened in 1967 all the way up to the late 1980s, it kind of stagnated. The field of holography more or less kind of came to a grinding halt. Holograms also differ fundamentally from photographs in a few unique ways that are almost paradoxical that I want you to put in your brain. The most famous and intriguing property again is that any piece of the hologram contains the entire image. If you break the holographic plate into pieces, each fragment still reconstructs the whole original scene with maybe a limited angle, like I said, or a lower resolution. This happens because the hologram is not an image itself, but an interference pattern encoding light waves from the entire subject.

encoding light waves from the entire subject. Every portion of the interference pattern holds information about every point of the object. It's as if the image is kind of distributed throughout the hologram. This is like way different from a regular photo where each part of the picture only contains that portion of the scene. I mean, like if you cut a, if you cut a photograph, you're only going to have half the picture. If you've got a hologram, you're going to have two full holograms of the same thing. Even a tiny fragment will still contain the entire picture of the original holographic image. There's parallax and 3D realism holograms. Because of hologram encodes a light field of a scene, when you look at it from different angles, you see that's why you see everything at a different angle. This gives holograms that 3D depth and parallax effect.

There's a distributed storage of information as well. The fact that each part of the hologram contains the whole image illustrates that information is not stored point for point, but rather in a wave interference pattern, which is like a grander scientific kind of discovery from all this. Technically, hologram records both amplitude and phase of light waves via interference, often by combining light from the object with a reference beam,

which is what's the laser and stuff like that before. The resulting pattern is how, that's what ends up with the resulting pattern looking like a dense set of fringes, meaningless to the eye, but when illuminated with light, will give you the actual full image. Like everything. Are you following me?

Are you still, are we getting out of, am I melting your brains? You keep kind of losing me a little bit, but then I keep kind of like putting it back together. It's taking all of my concentration to continue to conceptualize this, but I'm with you. Here's another mind blowing fact about a hologram as well. The holograms capture not just the entirety of objects, but down to a microscopic level. While you may not be able to see it when you're capturing the light interference pattern, in a hologram you can basically zoom in and look at microscopic

organisms in that hologram. It captures everything down to just even that small of a detail. It can be captures everything down to just even that small of a detail Hologram of like a magnifying glass will actually behave like a magnifying glass to objects within the holographic image itself So it's all like exactly it's like what are you fucking crazy? But say that one more time. Yeah, a repeat that. A hologram of a magnifying glass will behave like a magnifying glass to objects within the holographic image that it's also in. Wait, what? So if you take a holographic image of like a table

with my brush and then my hand holding a magnifying glass, If I tilt it, I can then the magnifying glass, it'll magnifying the table even if it's looking at the brush initially. But only the image that's already in the hologram. In the hologram. So you're not using the hologram as a magnifying glass. No, no, no, no. The magnifying glass is able to be a magnifying glass to all aspects.

No, like as a picture, I know they're different, but like, if we take it photo of a magnifying glass, magnifying something, would you be able to see the item being magnified through the magnifying glass in the photo to all leaves though, to all aspects, hold on to all aspects of the hologram itself. Yeah. So I can look at more than I can look at a regular brush with a regular magnifying glass. I mean scientists have literally used holograms of swamp water to examine the microbial life within the swamp water within the hologram instead of the swamp water. So the implication out of all this is you're saying that the potentiality of reality to

just be a hologram created by our brain exists. Yeah, the information with holography proves that information is not stored point by point, but all things have all of information distributed throughout it. I mean, technically- Just like those math forms that we were talking about in Cornerfest, actually. Yeah. Technically, just like those math forms that we were talking about in cornerfest, actually, technically your brain is the only thing you know exists because it interprets everything. So like technically they could be correct, but it's also like,

except they found a hologram, but those scientists that I'm talking about, and this is not exactly holograms is just math, but in the theoretical things that they were figuring out with string theory, it was like they were finding actual error correcting code in the patterns that they were seeing that were like representing. It was like code that was representational of the shape itself, where the entire shape contains

the code like a hologram, right. But within that code that it contained, they were finding evidence of error correcting code existing within the code. Like what do you mean by that? Like in the way, in the way that Safari on your computer has code in it that like protects it from runtime errors while it's running or whatever. I don't know the exact terminology

because I'm not good at computer shit, but like the code that runs the program has code in it to like correct errors that may occur. And he was finding evidence of those in his theoretical like, I mean, I guess what I'm asking is what like, is the implication that then there is. It's just, it's just more evidence making that happen. Yeah. It's like more evidence towards it being intentionally a hologram or whatever,

rather than a naturally occurring. The Romans making roads that self-repair that literally were just, that's how they made them. Like, it wasn't like robotics or whatever. Of course it could literally just be that it looks that way. But like, it's already theoretical and uses like string theory and whatever. So it's not like they can look at it. It's just like something they're figuring. So we don't know the

answer to that part of it. But this guy who is an expert in this is not and like, you know, worked for Obama and worked at the White House and it's like a serious physician or physician physicist was like, I believe this to be possible. And it like opens up implications into religion and reality being a simulation. Oh, sure. Sure. I think the idea of, of, I believe it's possible is 90% of this show though. You know what I mean? Like, Oh yeah, hell yeah. It's possible. It's sure.

That's why I think the holography stuff is cool though. Cause this is actual just science. Like it's just cool, light information storage and like the property that each fragment contains the whole image is one of those rare things where it seems to unite scientists and like philosophical thinkers on the thing where they're just like, this is so like, what the fuck is this about? Because it suggests like a metaphor for how information might be stored in other complex systems and it implies a form of a weird holistic storage where the whole is unfolded in each part.

And I wish I knew what that meant, but I'm taking it from a scientist Carl Pribram. This neuroscientist, Carl Pribram, developed the holonomic brain theory in the 1970s. Pribram was struck by the fact that memories in the brain don't seem to reside in one location. There's no single neuron for each memory. Portions of brain tissue seem to contain many memories. He proposed that the brain might store information in a distributed hologram-like way through interference patterns among neurons.

In such a model, each part of the neural network contains the information of the whole, much as each part of the hologram contains the entire image. In Prima, others pointed out that processes in the brain like vision and memory could be understood in terms of patterns of nerve signals that are mathematically similar to a four year transform, like a hologram, which I don't know, man, that's science words that he was saying. Um, this is basically like, as best as I could figure out, like a radical idea trying to tie together neurobiology and

we're at the edge of psychedelic physics now. And around this same time, another physicist, David Bohm, was also intrigued by holograms and Bohm's interpretation of quantum physics led him to suggest an in implicated order in the universe, a deeper level of reality where everything is fundamentally interconnected. He used the hologram as an analogy. In a holographic film, each region contains a whole image. So Bohm imagined the tangible world we observe is like the explicit, explicit, explicit order, like an image which unfolds from an implicate order, the hologram, where everything is unfolded

together and in Bohm's view, the universe could be structured like a hologram where separateness is an illusion and at a deeper level each part contains information about the entire cosmos. Like we're a 3D holographic projection of the unique properties of holograms, especially the whole in each part phenomenon that drew all these people to it in the seventies was kind of a boom of like using holographic discovery to fuel philosophical thought. And in theoretical physics, I know and in theoretical physics, the notion of a holographic universe emerges from attempts to reconcile quantum mechanics and gravity, particularly through the study of black holes. The idea is encapsulated in the holographic principle, first proposed in the 1990s, which suggests that our 3D reality might be a projection of information defined on a 2D boundary,

analogous to a hologram. This principle was inspired by puzzling findings in black holes and is closely associated with physicists Gerhard Hooft and Leonard Susskind, one of the guys I mentioned earlier. And in the 1970s, Jacob Bekenstein and Stephen Hawking discovered that black holes have entropy proportional to the surface area of the event horizon, not their volume. And Hawking showed black holes emit thermal radiation, which is known as Hawking radiation, and can eventually evaporate. This raised the famous black hole information paradox.

If a black hole disappears, what happens to the information of everything that fell in? Hawking's calculations implied information might be lost, which would violate quantum mechanics, which says information cannot be destroyed. And in the 1980s and early 90s, physicists pondered this paradox. Information. Yeah, because that's what, think about it. The light interference pattern that is being caught is information, which is being seen as the image, right? And Gerda Tuft suggested a solution. Perhaps all the information about anything that falls into a black hole is not lost at all, but rather encoded on the event horizon, which is like its 2D surface. In other words, the 3D contents of a black hole could be described

by data on its 2D boundaries. And this idea meant the black hole surface is what actually stores the information. Kind of like a record, if you think about it. Like a vinyl record holds the information of the audio on that 2D plane, that the 2D flat plane holds all the information that the black hole sucked into it. Did you have a question, Jesse, before we move on? I mean, when you say information, you mean the like not. Not zeros and ones. Yeah, you're talking about information.

You're referring to like literal just life and stuff. Energy and matter and everything. The stuff, all of it. Yeah, pretty. Yeah, all of it. Leonard Susskind, basically 1994 building on Hoofs it. Leonard Susskind, basically 1994, building on Hoofs proposal, Leonard Susskind published a paper titled The World as a Hologram. And in it, Susskind argued that the combination of quantum mechanics and gravity quote, requires the three dimensional world to be an image of data stored on a two dimensional surface, like a holographic

image. This statement is like essentially is just the holographic principle. All the information in a volume of space can be represented as bits on the boundary of that space. And then he with each bit roughly occupying an area on the order of one plank area, which is 10 to the minus 66 centimeter squared. Okay. And what is it? minus 66 centimeters squared. Okay. And what is a plank?

Say that one more time. I'm a mathematician now, uh, 10th to the power of negative 66 centimeters squared. Cool. Okay. So tiny. So tiny? My pay grade.

As like the tiniest you might be able to get the plank, a plank. Yeah. His insight was that our universe might function like a gigantic hologram basically. When we experience this three dimensions is encoded on a distant two-dimensional boundary like the black hole. His work along with parallel ideas by Hooft gave a concrete framework to the holographic principle and the math showed that the maximum information which is they call entropy inside a region of space scales with the area of its boundary, not the volume. Just as a hologram's information is on a film surface even though it projects a 3D image.

If one tries to pack too much information or too many quantum states into a region, one eventually creates a black hole and the information gets encoded on the horizon. Thus, nature seems to enforce a holographic limit I Don't really you know I like gone now. I think I'm pretty much I think I'm In the research I think some information was lost in the black hole. Yeah. Yeah, I cannot pretend to understand a lot of that leap here is that the edge of the universe is essentially the border of a projection.

They're trying to solve a paradox of the black hole because quantum science says information, things cannot be destroyed, but black hole says this, it all gets destroyed in a singularity. So he's saying maybe it doesn't, maybe the information gets spread out over the event horizon in a compressed two-dimensional state that we see as the event horizon around a black hole. But that's all of the information that can't fit into the black hole itself. That's my understanding of what I was reading.

Maybe when the Celestials destroyed the first firmament in the Celestial War and spread the multiverse creating the second cosmos, maybe the Aspirants entered the second cosmos to destroy reality. Hey, we're in theoretical physics. Maybe. Yeah, I mean, like, once you're in theoretical, you know, we're, we're, I think the lesson here is that we're operating in the space of maybe theoretical physics. Yeah, maybe. But it's all it's theoretical physics. Right. Okay. My point is black bolts out there.

All right. So let's keep moving. Uh, in 1997 though, Juan Maldicena provided a concrete example of the holographic principle at work known as the ADS-CFT correspondence. He showed that a theoretical universe with gravity in five dimensions, what he calls an anti-de Sitter space, is exactly equivalent to a quantum field theory on its four-dimensional boundary with one less spatial dimension and no gravity. This discovery was a major breakthrough that gave credence to the holographic idea. It's as if physics found like a specific hologram, he says. Everything happening in the 5D bulk space is encoded in the 4D boundary physics. And while our real universe is an ADS, this correspondence

is a compelling proof of concept. The holographic dualities are real in theory. Holographic, holographic realities are real in theory. I mean, I don't, I don't, like unreal realities are real in theory. He proved fifth to fourth from his math and he's then I think extrapolating the fourth to third is like possible. I think that's what he means. Basically, this led to what was also known as the Black Hole War between Susskind and Stephen Hawking, which was a decades long debate about whether information is lost in a black hole or not, which is the whole crux of what we're talking about. The holographic principle was Susskind's winning weapon, though, and by the mid-2000s, most physicists, including Hawking eventually,

came to accept that the information taken in by a black hole is not destroyed, but preserved. And holography is the reason why. Hawking conceded in 2004, agreeing that information could escape a black hole, effectively acknowledging that the holography is the reason why Hawking conceded in 2004, agreeing that information could escape a black hole, effectively acknowledging that the holographic resolution of Susskind's first saying that the event horizon was what that the information was. Well, uh,

he basically acknowledged a holographic resolution to the paradox because Hawking couldn't come up with a solution to the paradox that information is destroyed in a black hole when quantum science says information can't be destroyed at all and He was just like, okay. Well Susskind's makes the most sense So that's I just like that's what I'm going with and today the holographic universe concept is still a very active area of research In theoretical physics. It's very much a modern pillar of quantum gravity research apparently and has deep connections to string theory as you were talking about a little

earlier access and The idea remains mathematically complex even sus can describe it as seeing our world as a shadow of underlying information the best way I read somebody describe it as like Our three-dimensional image when light hits us produces a 2d shadow the 2d shadow if it was, does not perceive that it is being created as a projection of a light hitting a three dimensional object. It only knows that it is a two dimensional thing and nothing more. And the idea is that we are similarly the shadow of the fourth dimension projecting itself as a holographic image into

our own 3D reality. And that itself is why the, what meditation and the gateway experience at CIA were interested in was trying to crack into this to interface with the fourth and fifth dimensions and use that to their own means. I promise the rabbit hole looped back around at the end. Yeah, it felt like it was headed there. Yeah. This is a crux as to why they were even interested because this all existed and was coming into existence during Monroe doing his things. It was all happening at the same time. And so it kind of makes sense that they would be like, well, wait. and in that CIA paper, there is mention of Ishdoch Bentov and other like theoretical physics and shit that come

physicists that go into this stuff. And so that I think is where we'll end the Monroe Institute aspect of things, the full context of the Monroe Institute and their weird nefarious kind of scammy shady practices post and prior of Robert Monroe's death. But the reality of holographic science and quantum existence and these paradoxes existing that seem to interface with meditative practices that go all the way back to Eastern and Western religions of old of like this universal spiral world and all this stuff as they were talking about, you know, it all comes together and they touch tips a little bit.

And it's that's that's touching of the tips that gets the government interested in looking into things as it always does. So boys, with that, we'll close the show off with our own personal meditative experiences. I'm curious what it's been like for you and how often you tried. I think Jesse, you gave a shot this week. So why don't we start with you, Jesse? How did you approach this? What was your mindset going in? I'm very curious what your thought process was going into this. I mean, even though I think personally, I'm like, whatever. Sure. I went in completely

open. I'm always down to try new things and see what stuff happens. Um, here's what I'll say, uh, besides feeling like chill and relaxed, it has a very, uh, like I get the like, you know, ASMR tingle vibe going on there where you're like, Ooh, okay. With that said, the only thing that even remotely happened to me is that, um, I like started to see a table in my table, my eyes closed and I saw a table. Don't I can't even notoriously unable to imagine. Yes.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I cannot visualize things. And the minute I focused on it, it went away. Interesting. But I saw a table and there was no like, what was that? It just, my eyes were closed and like a table started to form. And then I was like, Oh, is that a table? And then it went away. And that was like, that's all that happened. Can you tell like what kind of table it was? How big it was? Like a kitchen table kind of vibe.

Like one that was in your apartment? No, no, no. It was never a table I've seen before. I don't even. Okay. Like, it was a 1979 Pier 1 in Port. That's so ancient. Imagine a big table with the four legs and the big top,

and that's what I was seeing. And again, when I went to try to focus on it to get more information, it immediately vanished. And then that was kind of it. And the rest was just my eyes closed. How long was did you did you meditate for? Oh, God, how long is 30 minutes or something? Yeah, whatever the tape is.

Gotcha. Yeah, that's see. I see to me that I find that fascinating with just again, because of how you've talked about how you literally can't imagine things in your mind's eye at all. That's why I was like, Oh, what is this? And then it went away. I mean, like the minute I decided I'm going to focus on it, does that make you want to do it again?

Um, really what it makes me want to do it. Cause I think I've been trying to do it since. And I think I just, because I was taking the time to sit there in relative quiet to be like, Oh, I am focusing on something. I think I could, I could attempt to do that. Just laying in bed at night with eyes closed. You know what I mean? I mean, that's meta.

You could do meditation without a guide and you know, you can just lay in bed. Yeah. It's definitely something I was interested in. Cause I was like, okay, I saw that. But again, I have no real, I don't know like what that did. I don't know if it was part of it or if it was just because my eyes were closed for so long that I started like seeing things. Cause at a certain point I was seeing the red of looking through my eyelids.

You know what I mean? I wear, I wear an eye mask. I don't have to fucking like you're actually taking in like information. Yeah. Yeah. And so my eyes were closed and it was dark. And then after a certain period of time, I could, it was, I was genuinely, uh, I could feel my eyes moving in my closed eyes. And that worried me cause I was like, all

right, should I open them? What should I, cause then I started to be like, what am I, I will say my brain was definitely playing and this happens to me when I sleep sometimes. So I know it wasn't this, but like I will, if I close my eyes long enough, like I'll get flashes of weird things, not like a face or anything, but weird things that seem strange that are like, but it's just my eyeballs losing their mind. Cause I literally have a stigmatism in one eye. And so my eyes like, bro, I don't know what's going on, dude.

So yeah, that's just me, but it was a, it was a trip. Yeah. It was interesting. Alex, what about you? When did you start trying? And I did it in like whatever, whenever you like sent it first. Yeah. Like, I don't know, like September or so. So maybe even before that, uh, I did it for like, maybe like two weeks.

Um, and I was really enjoying it. It was kind of like making me uncomfortable sometimes, like by the end, I would feel kind of like weirdly tired or whatever, like sometimes like, I don't know, like, weirdly tired or whatever. Like, sometimes like, I don't know, like, I don't know how to describe this. But like, I used to do this show called Comedy Sports, which is kind of like, whose line is it anyway, on stage? And like, it's two teams. It was like kind of sports themed. So like one team would go and then the other team would go, right. So you'd think like,

you know, in an hour and a half show or whatever, I'd be sitting on the bench half the time, like resting. But I would be so exhausted from doing those shows. And it was because like, like engaging your mind with something so actively to be like supportive in the case of improv, or like in the case of meditation, just being like, so fucking present and like trying to focus my will like, because it asks you to do it actively a lot of the time in meditation, which is not something that I find to be intuitive, natural, natural intuitive. It is like intuitive in the way that like, I feel like I could use storms powers if I had them, you know, I could reach out and like, I know what it would feel like to move the weather in some way. But thinking about that, thinking about what that would feel like and picturing myself moving, trying like genuinely trying to will the storm, you know, like, or will the claws to pop out of my hands. Yeah, you know, really try, actually try. It makes you tired. And so like, I found

myself getting really exhausted sometimes when I would do it, and it left me feeling worse than when I started. But I would always always always feel powerful, I would always feel strong weird things happen when you were meditating, meditation like all the time, like I would empower myself to believe things were happening in the context of like, like, like intent, like magical intent, or like, whatever. Like, I was like, I'm doing this right now. And I was like, fully believing that I was doing it. Like when I was saying I was talking to my dog, or like, I remember one time I was trying to turn my ears up and down. Like, not my not physically, but like, turn

my audio input up and down at will like mute my ears with willpower. What I could kind of, I think Xavier would let you on the team if that was your mutation. Turn down the ears of the guards. X-Men, he'll make it so that you can't hear Wolverine approaching. But it's only me. I can do it too. Right. So like if I'm the guard, I guess it's cool. Like I can, I can be professor X's inside man and get hired as a guard who then turns off

my ear. I guess I don't need the power at that point. The point is too deep of a thought. The point is, the point is I really did feel in the moment, I could believe that I was doing the thing. So it really was powerful in that way. And it was helping me, I don't want to say hallucinate because I wasn't like seeing it any better than normal when I like imagined things in my mind, but I was able to connect those images that I was seeing in my mind to the belief

that they were really occurring. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, I think so. And so like for me, it made me feel like maybe was seeing in my mind to the belief that they were really occurring. Did that make sense? And so like for me, it made me feel like maybe that was one of the pathways to like believing you're remote viewing, you know, is just believing that you're remote viewing and guessing well, but like it also was like, maybe I was, maybe I was starting to exert my will, you know, like I don't, he was about to do, dude, he was about to remove you somebody's living room. That's what I'm saying. I just, I don't know. I don't know how much of it. I genuinely don't know how much of it's me.

And how much of it's the vibrating or the talking or the actual specific things he's telling me to do. Did you add, do you think it had any like, long deal? Like, do you notice any day to day differences in not not like, because you're a psychic, but like, just internal thoughts? I'll be honest, like my understanding of the universe and like that I use day to day to get through my life is already pretty like out there, I think compared

to the average person, just based on my like life experiences over the years and things I've done and seen and done. But like, so no, not really, but like at the same time, like it was very like easy to jump on the train. It really was like a simple, it feels elemental in the way math does sometimes, you know, like it feels natural that it would work this way. And like when he says like, you know, stuff like draw the power and put it here and stuff like that, you can feel like getting powerful and pushing and you push it out and you don't feel as powerful anymore because you're venting.

I didn't feel that at all. I'm just saying like, I'm not, I'm not telling you like, oh, I was moving my power around or whatever the fuck, but I was able to get to the point where I might as well have been in my mind in the moment. And that's kind of an interesting thing that meditation can do. And I think is very centering and kind of like, you know, you know, that sound of the bell or like the like, the bowls that people Yeah, yeah, like that, like just reverberate inside the middle of your forehead, like, yeah, I feel like there's some kind of connection between all

that that is like natural to the activity of meditating, be it scientific or physiological or magical or steeped in Eastern myth, mystical tradition, whatever the fuck that dude said in the report, like, yeah, yeah, I just I enjoyed it. It's not something like I'm not a guy to like buy into stuff like that, really, like, I understand that it's like, something that I have to buy into. I'm able to get there, but I'm not trying to make it part of my life right now in a way where I'm like, I need this. I feel like I'm already kind of thinking about life that way. And I'm already depressed. It's still I'm still depressed. Like it's not Yeah, it's not gonna help me. I'm not I'm not here using it feeling like I'm gonna find truth But right if I'm stressed out if I'm stressed out, I will I could seek The the tapes as a way of feeling powerful. Let's say that in the moment

We all three of us had a very different experience. I think well, you know like how people say smile Yeah, and you will be happier. It's kind of like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, yeah, that's true. I mean, um, very similar to you, Alex, like I had, there were sessions where I was just tired after, and I did, I would not meditate for a couple of days because I just didn't feel like it was just like an exhausting idea. Um, I will say that in my experience, I do find myself in my day to day being more like aware of my own negative emotions and being able to like have an external thought of just like, it's dumb that you're angry about this or anxious about this. Just let it go and not not like a voice that doesn't belong. It's

obviously my own thought, but the I've noticed the ability that that thought creeps in. Like there is that second moment of just like, hang on, do you really want to be anxious or this angry? And sometimes it doesn't fucking matter. And I'm angry anyway. And even that thought doesn't stop anything. But the fact that I'm having that thought is progress in trying to like, you know, not let anxiety dominate or whatever.

Regardless of beyond that, like in terms of weird stuff, I didn't I didn't astrally projects. I didn't like, you know, like in terms of weird stuff, I didn't, I didn't hastily projects. I didn't like, you know, get shot out of my body. I did have the physical feelings I had consistently where the feeling of extreme heaviness over my whole body. Um, and the occasional buzzing feeling like from on my limbs in particular, but often my entire body of this very, not like a vibration, like so many other people say, but just a very gentle buzzing. And there were, I might've said it last episode, but there were two hallucinatory like moments very early on. One of the first

times I was meditating, I just had in a way that I never had like just a flash of an image that was like a move. Like I could like see it in the back of my eyelids Like it was an actual crazy Yeah, and it was just a flash of a gray alien And I just think it's because I was thinking about aliens in my been like I was deep in the relaxed state and midway through And it just like did that it literally made my heart like sink for a minute like snap me out of the relaxation I was like, whoa, what the fuck didn't move it was a still image and it was like less than a second. It was just bing and bang. It was done Then the other one that I had was an audio hallucination couple months later

Which was to the right side just in my right ear was sounding like a young like European woman go Hello Hello And that was it and that's that pretty good. It had me too and snap me right out of it. I was good. It was weird as hell. And I don't know why my brain decided that was what I like needed to hear. I don't really know.

But other than that, like nothing crazy. A lot of I was, but I am surprised as someone who's so fidgety and ADHD, how I was able to at least get to the point of being able to sit completely still for the whole time. And that also was just in and of itself, cool to know. I was able to just be like, I can sit still. This is nice. Yeah, nothing crazy other than that. It was fascinating. But I will say this week, before last episode and this episode, I was going to do take mushrooms and meditate. I took the mushrooms. I find I found I didn't get to the point where I put the headphone on,

but in listen to the meditative tapes, but I went in with the intent of being like. What like meditate, I wanted to focus on meditation and try to meditate with it. And I'll tell that story on the mini-sode. Great. Over at patreon.com. He knows the job. I'm proud of you, man. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you all so much for listening. The Monroe Institute and the Consciousness three parter is done. We've got a special guest coming next week that we'll just hold off on announcing? And the new Mothman plush is out. You probably heard the ad playing at the beginning of the episode,

but it's out. Shit. Go get it. We're almost at the point where we're like, by the time this episode, that would probably sold planning, which they get a pretty neat. A friend. If you have the old one, this one looks nice next to it. They are two different colors. Yeah, they're like good friends.

And if you only have one, you don't think they're gonna be so long story left unsolved it's a mysteries of Terrible. Goodbye everybody, we'll see you next week. Yoyoyo! Yoyoyo! Yoyoyo! Yoyoyo! Oh hey, look who's back from their vacation to Scotland.

Hey Mothman. Hey Chupacabra! Hey Frisno Nightcrawler! My greetings young lad. What a beautiful Polaroid camera you've got there. Such beautiful leather straps and so well weathered. Like the pale brown skin, so many leaves. Dry and brittle atop winter's first snow. In Fresno. So don't keep us waiting. How was Edinburgh? Did you meet Nessie or what, maybe a Kelpie?

Actually, this is so crazy to say, but I might have met someone and you know I'm usually kind of an enigmatic loner but we honestly had a lot in common it was nice like the opposite of a notorious national scale bridge disaster wow that's so sweet yeah it's a shame they're all the way in scotland though yes just as the california winds blow through the ash trees, there is no better feeling than weird, beautiful love between two dark entities of fate. For your friend to make their way to us, it would be glorious. It would be world class. It would be Fresno.

Yeah, I hope they write me back! Three to five business days later. Dear Mothman 1, It was so great to see you the other day. Thanks for visiting my fair city. You can tell that I'm from here because of my very authentic accent. I don't really know how to say this but it was... nice. Like, the opposite of a notorious national scale bridge disaster.

Heheheh, yeah yeah yeah. Anyway, I'm just right to say, I think I will take you up on the offer to visit. And anyway, the group that created me, the Chiluminati, has an office out there. And I'm sure I can make some excuse to come out. In fact, I probably shouldn't say this next part but- Mothman 2! Now with green eyes! Get your clone today! I mean get your own today at theyeri.com slash Chaluminati! Yo yo yo! Yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo! Yo! Anyway, me and my wife were sitting outside indulging on our porch one night, enjoying ourselves.

I needed to go to the bathroom, so I stepped back inside and after a few moments I hear my wife go, Holy shit, get out of here! So I quickly dash back outside. She's a perfect line of dozen lights traveling across the sky. I'm gonna be a good boy Thanks for watching!