Chilluminati Podcast - Episode 295: Heavens Gate Part II - The Collapse

Episode Date: April 20, 2025

Mike, Jesse and Alex tackle Part 2 of the UFO cult with a great taste in sneakers, Heavens Gate! This bring falling apart for Tib and Do MOFFMIN PLUSH MERCH - http://www.theyetee.com/collections/chilluminati Thank you too - All you lovely people at Patreon! HTTP://PATREON.COM/CHILLUMINATIPOD ZocDoc - http://www.zocdoc.com/chill HelloFresh - http://www.hellofresh.com/chill10free Jesse Cox - http://www.youtube.com/jessecox Alex Faciane - http://www.youtube.com/user/superbeardbros Editor - DeanCutty http://www.twitter.com/deancutty Show art by - https://twitter.com/JetpackBraggin http://www.instagram.com/studio_melectro SOURCES Heaven's Gate: America's UFO Religion by Benjamin Zeller

Hello everybody and welcome back to the Jaluma Naughtii podcast episode 295 or five episodes away from 300 As always I'm one of your hosts Mike Martin today joined by the oh The McBob and shortcut of LA Jesse and Alex what? Yep McBob and shortcut is that haircut sounds like secret McDonald's orders McBob and Shortcut? Is that haircuts? Sounds like a secret McDonald's orders. Guess that country, boys.

There's no way in absolute hell you're gonna guess this country. I would put a million dollars on it. McBob and Shortcut are from... Nigeria. Fuck you. You got it. That's correct. I just thought you were just saying it because what do I get?

I don't get million dollars. That's just take me another 50 to 60 years. I mean, I live to see it is 60. You're giving yourself 50, 60 million. Plus that's so optimistic. Well, I'll be dead before then. So you know, I don't worry about it. Oh yeah. Welcome. McBob and who's McBob and who's shortcut? Uh, I, you know, I don't worry about it. Uh, yeah. Welcome to Bob and who's big Bob and who's shortcut.

Uh, I, you know what? I'm definitely shortcut your shortcut. What is it? Yeah. Alex has a big Bob vibe. I'll take McBob for sure. 100%. But I feel like has the crazy hair. McBob has like the neat tidy hair. I don't even know who these guys are. Me. I dead ass said Nigeria out of nowhere. I didn't even look that up.

Yeah, I'm not a McBob. Alex is clearly a McBob. Their actual names are I and Ego Die. Yeah, that doesn't help at all. Ego Die? I want that. D-Y-E Die though. Oh. Hold on, who is Ego Die?

Which one? I believe that's Shortcut. Yeah, I'm taking Shortcut. I'm taking Shortcut. That's lit. Give me Ego Death, let's go. Yeah, I'm taking a shortcut. Ego death. Let's go. Ego die is like a Kojima character, dude. Yeah. Yeah, it's unbelievable. Go die. And then he's shortcut. You go die. That's Holy shit. And what am I? I'm like, Bob. And what's my name? Uh, A Y I imagine. I die. Yeah. I and die. I guess. Yeah. Yeah. This is fatalistic as I don't. I hope they're cool. I don't know. Yeah, I and I guess. Yeah. Yeah

This is fatalistic as I don't I hope they're cool. I don't know like I haven't listened to much of their stuff They don't have like their own wiki. So I don't know much about them God bless just kind of stumble across them. But welcome to the show. Thank you for your memories today fellas. Yeah Yeah, thank you. I think all of you for that's a lot of the plushie by the way Thank you. And thank all of you for selling us out of the plushie by the way. The moth man too is gone. He's gone. He is gone. The new moth man plushie has come and gone and like a brigadoon, like a merch brigadoon,

he is gone. So we- And now our next piece of merch, Chikob. What was it? Chupacabra. And it's a Chupacabra, but he has like, you know an attitude He's got his dangly joint. It's a chupacabra with a with a with a with a kick with a skateboard Yeah, he's got like a skateboard. It says

With a fucking middle finger on it. Yeah, it's like Nessie with the middle finger and it says radical You think he smokes his own antenna joint. Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, it's part of it's like when he when you know, Antonio Hocks pro skater when it's like, that's like his little thing was like this whole persona. Yeah, yeah. New merch is coming much sooner than you think. And if you want to find it first, head over to patreon.com slash Chalumna. D pod. Because that's the place where you hear about stuff first,

amongst other things, not to mention the dope ass But if you guys did not see the fucking biblically accurate angel to lose on your art, it's so well did last time that shit That shit is like tight as hell. You should pay the money just to see that picture It's worth it It is to see it and as a bonus you get the plus one to your morality gauge of supporting a podcast that is owned and run by the same people and no one else.

What do you think about that? That's true. And with the people we do hire, we pay barely. Mucho dinero, Joe. Yeah. That's what we call them. Mucho dinero. They're paid in dinerchos, which is our own currency.

It's Chiluminati. It's corporate currency for the Chaluminati store. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's why the beat. That's why the Mothman 2 sold out is because people have been hollowing them out and using them to fill their pillows with. Were you about to say beanie? First off, why have we not created a beanie? We had a beanie. It has the Mothman face on it. No, it has the Mothman on it. The beanie is the Mothman. Guys, don't even, the amount of crazy merch that is about to hit your house is so crazy. My house? Jesse's house?

Matthew's house. You'd be surprised how long it takes, but they've been wheeling for months now with wheeling up. Like Alex in particular has been putting in the fucking groundwork to like, completely overhaul how what we sell, how often we sell how often new stuff comes in. It's

there's a lot going on. There's a lot of cool stuff out there coming. Yeah, just get hype for it. And yeah, like I said, you always find out first on Patreon, amongst other fantastic things, you get the mini soles every single time that we put out a regular episode. I know we don't like mention that one like directly that much, like, but it's like, it's tight, like, cause you're listening to the episode and it's very convenient that at the end of it, you're like,

I would like to listen to like those same guys keep talking, but like a little bit longer about pretty much anything at this point, because I would just, I'm in that zone right now. That is exactly what a mini soda is, bro. It happens right away, right after this episode comes out. So, uh, go check it out. Sometimes you get more than you bargained for in our Minnesota is like an hour long. Yeah, sometimes

regret actually dedicated depends on what kind of K-hole we find ourselves in over the yes. Speaking of today's K-hole let's lose our testicles today, gentlemen. It's time balls right off and throw them in the K-hole, baby. Get rid of all those human urges. Fuck food. Fuck fucking fuck skin. I'm out. I don't want to be in the

cult anymore. Wait, I want my penis. You don't know. No, you do not. I decided because if you keep your penis, you don't get to become an androgynous sexless creature hanging out in a UFO tailing the Hale bop comet in. I'll be honest, that's what I want. I'll just play Metal Gear Solid. I'll just stay home. I'm good. All right, let's-

Final Fantasy VII's coming up. I got it, I'm ready. As we dive into part two, let's give a quick recap of what last week was all about because there's a lot more involved in the Heaven's Gate cult than I think many people realize, including an entirely different person aside from Applewhite who was the kind of core of it all.

Last we dove down this rabbit hole, one of them, this is one of America's most infamous, remember public UFO cults. They embraced the UFO name. This is something that a lot of cults, even if they had kind of weirder beliefs, never really did. Our story, our story began long before the Rancho Santa Fe incident in 1997 when the 39 people ended up killing themselves. We first met Marshall Applewhite, also known as Doe or, you know, Guinea and Pig. He's Pig and all those great nicknames that they had.

Great nicknames in big old air quotes. Big old air quotes. Great. Yeah. He calls himself a charismatic. They called him a charismatic, but deeply troubled former music professor that struggled with the sexuality at the time and all of societal rejection. Now I want to say a big thank you to our community because we listened to his voice and we were like, how, how in God's name does anybody find any like a track, like a charisma in these words and somebody I apologize, I can't remember their name, but pointed out that they well, they may not sound charismatic. The way they speak is similar to the

preachers he used to listen to in a very like, hypnotic kind of droning way that just keeps you in rapture. And it's like you go, it's it's not for obviously doesn't work on everybody. But for certain mindset and whatnot, there's a tone the way he speaks really can be enrapturing to some. I'll take I mean, I'll take it. I'll just say this. I wouldn't describe how I feel listening to it as enraptured. No, me either. As in board and

yes, it's a great sleep aid. He started, his beginnings were in West Texas. Remember, he was a preacher's son. He was notably talented musically, but he spiraled through professional setbacks, personal failures, escalating psychological distress. And by the early 70s, where our story really began, after losing his father and experiencing an intense series of auditory hallucinations and delusions

He found himself in the brink and ended up being hospitalized Which is where we see the entrance of Bonnie Lou Nettles Which is the guinea or the tea part of all of this a nurse with a more traditional background I don't know man. There's a context that just sounds like a like, like if I like did some like sniff some chemical in my brain just started hearing words wrong. It just sounds like nightmare words like it just doesn't even sound like it makes sense. She was a nurse with a more traditional background who kind

of became a seeker of esoteric truths. She was immersed in astrology, theosophy showing that Madame Blavatsky's reach even touched out to here where it was actually crazy. That was actually crazy. I had actually no idea of that connection. That again, I'd argue without Madame Blavatsky, it may not have gone the route that it went, though I don't think it necessarily would stop the two of them from doing something weird together.

But did she look forward into a scrying glass and see this influence that she was having? Right. It's crazy, dude. But she believed it. I there's going to be a time when we do an I'm going to do an enormous deep dive on her specifically because she is Blavatsky. Beyond fascinating like she Madame Blavatsky is wild. I love her as just like a historical figure. Yeah, so she was immersed in astrology theosophy. She claimed to be able to channel spirits from beyond and even believing herself in communication with extraterrestrial beings. And the other thing that I want to make clear is she is a true

believer. She fully believes in all of this stuff. She did not like use this as a tool of control. Her beliefs were heavily founded on all of this stuff. And when they finally met in a Houston hospital in 1972, of which the details we are not privy to, and we've heard multiple stories of. Apple, regardless of how they met, Apple, White and Nettles quickly recognized each other

as cosmic partners bound by destiny to deliver a revolutionary spiritual message. There's a lot. So like I said, air quotes are all that shit. It's a lot there. Yeah. That's like that type of being in love with someone where you're just like insane. Yeah. Yeah.

Like you're when you're 17 years old and you think you're found the one you're going to be with forever. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like what are we gonna do when they when shit goes crazy? We got guns. We got money aside.

We're gonna run away together. We got a place. Bonnie and Clyde there, you know, no way. Exactly. Yeah, Guinea and Pig, if you will. Guinea and Pig, tea and dough. Yeah, tea and dough. Tea and dough. Oh man. And when they finally came together, his unique form of delusion and mental illness and her

of believing to see visions of the future and destiny, together they synthesized their own unique theology, blending elements of biblical prophecy, UFO lore, and radical New Age beliefs of the 70s. They saw themselves as the prophesied two witnesses from the Book of Revelation destined for martyrdom, resurrection and eventual ascension aboard a spacecraft. And again, they fully believed at this point in time that they were actually going to die and come back to life and go get sent into a UFO. It is not in the same in the same mortal realm. and come back to life and go get sent into a UFO.

It is not in the same mortal realm. Correct. Remember as they would be dead for three and a half days and then rise, and then they were ascending to a UFO, uh, much like Jesus did, uh, you know, according to their belief system, um, family possession, sexuality, even their own sense of self and identity were envisioned as like a literal physical transformation, taking all of those things, throwing them away and becoming this neutral androgynous extraterrestrial body that you'll then inhabit

a physical transformation here on our planet after they, you know, but this is before the suicide stuff that wasn't part of this yet. This is what they were going to end up doing. Right. Message resonates. This is just deep lore. This is OG. Only ones are supposed to die in this are a Nettles and Apple white at this point. And only because they're going to resurrect afterward, because that's kind of Christy. Yeah. Exactly. Correct. Yeah. Well Christy, the Christy at this point, you guys, But you know, as crazy as it sounds, their message at the time

resonated. Christy. Y'all Christy. Y'all are Christy for this one. That's what they're saying. Christy. Yeah, y'all Christy. Y'all are Christy for this one. Apple White. Thank you so much to today's sponsor, Factor.

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That's chill five zero off and use code chill 50 off to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. It's code chill 50 off factormeals.com slash chill 50 off or 50% off plus free shipping. Thank you again to Factor Meals for sponsoring today's episode. Again, it sounds insane for us, but their message resonated strongly enough with the spiritually restless kind of atmosphere of the seventies

that they attracted followers who abandoned jobs, relationships, families, any and all earthly ties to join. What became known at the time was him or human individual metamorphosis. That was the name of their group. Okay. The vibes, the vibes, AKA double Christ's and unlike other cults, this meant not bringing all of their money. They didn't give away all their money and like enrich the leaders here. They all lived very nomadic lifestyles. These early converts like moved around with Applewhite and Nettles. They strictly adhering to the extreme doctrines that were slowly introduced and then enforced by Applewhite and Nettles. Okay, sorry. When you when you say move around

they camp out in the wilderness most of the time. And just like walk through the woods? Like wandering through town to town. Occasionally, if they had the money for it, probably taking buses rather, not probably taking buses, taking buses, but that required them sometimes taking quick little gigs, part-time jobs out in the real world to get the money

so that they could go longer distances. Like, they didn't bring their money so they could travel. They just traveled and were like, okay, we need money. We'll just go do bare minimum to get that money and then we'll move. Crazy. Yeah, it's very, very bizarre. They adhered. So yeah, they were slowly introduced to these new rules stripping away pretty much every trace of humananness amongst their people. The idea was to remember they got uniforms at some point. They're supposed to kind of all remove identity and they all operate as this one androgynous,

sexless, all wearing the same uniform, we're all the same, we're all the same thing, identity. Like this. I mean, that is like, it makes sense to say we, why take a real job when you won't be here? Right. That's what they all believed. That is like a big part of, uh, like deep, deep evangelical thinking, like why care for the world when the whole point is we're supposed to leave it and go like be raptured. So like, yeah, we want to, the closer we can get to nuclear war, the better for us is like the vibe of a lot of people. And that's very worrisome. And something I didn't

bring up last time, but the what they ended up calling people not in the cult, like us normal people, Luciferians. Right, because we're evil, because we are not them. That just means normies, because Earth is already hell in their theology Earth is hell already So when Earth gets recycled they get to everybody in heaven's gate gets to leave and ascend Earth gets completely like recycled and reset and humanity begins again and until the point of like I guess a new Christ like Apple white figure comes back because member Apple whites lore is oh He's done this before he's been through this before. I'm here to help you do this again.

So like that's kind of the vibe here for them. So we're Luciferians, anybody not in, cause we are already living in hell. We're the other right. We're choosing not to go with them. We're choosing hell. We don't believe them. Yeah. Exactly.

And they went, remember town to town and their, their their goal was jump into town get a big meeting They'd have a couple hundred people they dropped their beliefs on them They'd hold a second meeting all the people who didn't believe at that point like that part of it were filtered out and those people Were then deemed the real believers and then they gave them the more crazy pitch of what actually happened and then said we're leaving usually Within 48 hours you're either with us and you leave everything behind, or you stay here and you're you can't come with us putting the pressure on them to decide now which can cut all ties and towns would go to the cops because of missing

people's that would leave overnight. We'll just final fantasy literally like it sounds like a fucking made up story. Yeah, and they and they left and that's how they had paid. They had up to 80 something people by the time we were kind of like leaving them off last time. But yeah. And after they did that for a while, going to town to town, getting slowly facing more and more external pressures and internal pressures as they

had more people under their wing that they had to manage T and dough themselves made a very important decision. In 1976, they abruptly closed their public recruitment, isolating their community in an attempt to strengthen, control, and deepen internal cohesion. But even among their own cult, the two of them even went and became even more isolated themselves. Only around when necessary, but going into kind of like quiet mode where they began to discuss the

next steps as to what they were going to do next. You know what this sounds like? So ignoring the cult stuff, ignoring any political things like, you know what this sounds like on a level that is very us, um, anytime, and this is any and every time a influencer, YouTuber, tick tock or whatever gets caught up in some drama, like crazy stuff. We're talking sexual things or whatever. There's always immediately in the aftermath, people like you suck them out.

There's always this group that's like, I'm with you and I believe, and they become this like weird, hardcore borderline cultish of personality vibe of like, this is my person. This is who I like. Nothing you say can change this. And they stick with them despite all evidence, the contrary that like this person shouldn't be in a position of power whatsoever. Um, and it just keeps happening and it happens all the time on, on like influencer culture. I can think of like during our 10, 11 years of being YouTubers or more than that at this point, I can think of easily five that are like, have that.

Like you're like people, no matter what, but it look at go micro scale. Macro is literally a dude who was accused of not one, not two, but multiple cases of drugging and raping women who was a pretty famous gaming YouTuber guy. Yep. Yep. And he vanished for a little bit and all he did was circle the wagons, get his like culty guys in order and then come back. And now he's like a grifter dude, but still still he had a career where He was making at the height of his like when he when everyone's like he's he's dead. His career is over.

What they meant was he's no longer making thirty five thousand dollars a month. He's making nine thousand dollars a month. Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, no. Like we really showed that's crazy. Dude, it's it's yeah, it's and it only got no audience that was more passionate about what he was doing. This there's always a little bit, you know, in these things, there's a line for everybody in heaven's gate, the line for one of the dudes, it literally took them

until they were like, we're cutting our balls off now, which we're going to get to today like that, like it was his line, even though there should have been 9 million lines. And you know what? It's a good line to have. That's the thing. That's the thing about this, the way things go. Like, okay, this is what you said, it's the seventies, right? It's like, we're right. 1976 is like, we're picking back up at this point. There's like barriers to you getting information just like that are like physical. So you can like really kind of be isolated from information just by like being busy,

right? Or whatever. And so you're isolated and somebody tells you, this is how the world is. You believe them, right? It's happening right now. Like literally, everybody like, I was going to say, like, if we look at a macro scale, I know everybody's like, wait, whoa, to Illuminati gets political. Yeah. Like having been listening ever. It's happened literally right now where the line for a lot of people is this nine and oh SCOTUS ruling that literally says you took an innocent man off the streets and put him in a concentration camp in El Salvador and you're supposed to return him and he's ignoring the SCOTUS ruling. That was a line for some people.

I saw that be a line for a couple of people out here in Texas that I know that was like a line in general. I would say it's like a line in general, But but there are still the people that are like double down. They're like, Nope, this is my guy. And while that circle gets smaller, they get more entrenched, they get more unable to be moved. And that almost is the point for them in some ways, like, no matter what you say, you can't you can't change my mind. And I'm laughing about that. Like, that's part of it

for some of them, right? And from like down to YouTubers to cults to politics, it's the same shit over and over and over. I think that's power. And then they wonder why they're miserable. Yeah, it's not. So as they get back tonight, like these guys, they closed the doors. The the the the reap and the harvesting had had completed according to Nettles, if you remember.

And this really did mark the end of their public proselytizing and the start of their more intense regimented existence that they called the classroom. Oh boy. So it's here that we pick up with part two, we're going to dive into the inner workings of heaven's gate during their years of seclusion. We're going to dive deep into the strict routines, what the internal dynamics were like, doctor, a doctrinal evolutions, how it changed in the profound emotional and spiritual crisis, including what happens to Bonnie

Nettles that would set the stage for what the eventual culmination of this group's journey would be the suicide in 1997. So we are going to be picking up mid 1976 when our founders, Marshall Herff Applewhite and Bonnie Lou Nettles, uh, known as Bowen Peep abruptly ceased their public campaign on April 21st, 1976 Nettles announced that the harvest is closed. There will be no more meetings. And this proclamation just closed. Yep, they're done. It's it nobody can be saved anymore. This proclamation ended their

initial whirlwind of a kind of public proselytizing and actually good you guys. We're full no more crazy about that is that immediately to me would be like that's a signal right to say like I'm trying to save people like the whole point like if you are into religion at all if you are biblically a clock If that's the thing you're into Then like the whole point is like Jesus didn't say I'm done saving people He was like, I guess I'm dead trying to do this. Yeah, like that's say, I'm done saving people. He was like, I guess I'm dead trying to do this. Like that's crazy. It goes against all logic to think that, oh yeah, no, I will stop trying to save

people because I've given up and we're just going to focus on the people in the group. Like that screams cult. The minute you do that, you're no longer trying to be religion, not trying to reach people. You're trying to control people and any cult member, I guess you really have to have the blinders on to truly understand that. I think you're just forgetting the practicality of there's only so many seats on a UFO. Yeah, I feel like there are other UFOs. There could be other ones. Not this time. Yeah, there will be another one after the recycle and the reset, man. That's all, you know? Yeah, these are the pair, the two, they gathered the followers that they'd amassed at this point, which was somewhere we don't have an exact number, but between 80 and 100 people, and led them into seclusion

in the remote wilderness. That summer of 1976, the entire group rendezvoused at a campground in the Medicine Bow National Forest in Wyoming. There, Applewhite Nettles began forging the movement into what they called the classroom, which was a tight, unified, mobile monastic community under the two of theirs total leadership. This retreat was partly a response to mounting pressures. In 1975, Heaven's Gate, then still called him,

had drawn national attention after dozens of devotees abruptly disappeared to follow both of them, expecting a UFO to show up. So immediate coverage started covering them. Even Walter Cronkite on CBS ended up covering them at that time, which is big news back then. And frantic families of recruits brought intense scrutiny. Internally, the group was also kind of in disarray

by early 1976 as many of the members began to drift away, disappointed by the promised extraterrestrial quote unquote demonstration that they were supposed to get. And that had not even yet to occur. And Apple eight nettles themselves, like I said earlier, had gone into hiding from their own flock for a bit scattered in small. The rest of the flock was kind of scattered into small camp units across the country. You not get, how do you not get sussed out by that?

This is where some people did. This is where people started actually leaving. And the decision to close the harvest was a bid to try and stop that from happening. Stop people from leaving. So in Wyoming, Applewhite Nettles decisively reasserted their authority. They dissolved the decentralized cell structure that had formed during the recruitment blitz and instead consolidated everyone into one tight-knit group under the direct supervision of themselves.

They also assumed new biblical names, T and Doe, musical notes that evoking the sound of music on a scale, signaling a fresh start in their roles as teachers. I don't understand. I guess there's like a kind of pairing there, but like I didn't understand what like they mean. I mean, I played Horizon Forbidden West like I get it. OK. Oh, damn. Oh, shit. Now, what a deal. That's in there.

The community that they'd shaped was often likened to a roving monastery. The two leaders demanded absolute obedience and uniformity. No longer were they merely charismatic teachers, they now became unquestioned captains of this new ship. Around the time they began formally signing all members, as many cults start doing, new names. Symbolically, severing their times with their past identities and in actuality,

truly like mentally having them separate themselves And it's a way of even further isolating them from what they knew as their old lives literally. What's the what's the? Bo Burnham What was it called they want you inside inside inside yeah, yeah, yeah, they want you inside to control you like to yeah oh yeah exactly yeah uh and by late 1977 while camped at canyon lake in texas t and doe called each member in and bestowed a simplified three letter name with the suffix o d y o d so they had jmody or soro D for instance. It was again, a practice meant to erase personal history, refocus members

on their next level in capital and NL. Remember that's the next they level up and to turn them all into Teletubbies or something. Yeah, exactly. That would have been, you know what? The balls wouldn't have been the first line for me. Them changing my name to have ODI at the end of it. I'd be like, y'all stupid. I'm a Chessidy Sarodi just Odie

You guys suck this place sucks. Yeah, so we get cool man It's easy like people will fall for it better if you make it cool Yeah, if you give everyone like D&D names like you should be named Carys Blackthorn Upgrade shit next level like you shall be named Caris Blackthorn. Like I'd be like, shit, yeah, let's go. Oh, upgrade. Shit, next level. As Applewhite later explained, taking a new name helped one disassociate from the family tree, quote unquote,

and reinforce a sense of rebirth into the group's celestial mission. This naming convention, every follower becoming an Odie exemplified the stricter, stricter structural controls that are now being implemented on the group. I listen to they steal all of their beliefs. They're not super creative if it hasn't. Their group name is him.

They called themselves the two. Their nickname is Guinea and Pig. They're not creative people. It was the seventies. This could have been very creative for 1976 I don't know maybe I I don't know the vibe is the vibe is kind of cutesy right like in my mind like I don't know you guys how it's striking you guys to me the vibe is kind of groovy cutesy kind of not too not too

serious not too complicated. Yeah, it's, it's just new hippie alien beliefs that slowly getting weird. The OD aspect of it all is like, yeah, like a weird step. And I can't be imagine being called SRR OD, SROD as the name that was given to one of them. Is that like something that you pronounce? Is it that's like a name? That's how I pronounce, I read it in the book.

But I mean like, is that like a, like I am designate S-R-R-O-D-Y or is it literally like, no, my name is literally Srody. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's Srody. Yeah, I think it's how it is. Hey, what's up, I'm Srody. No wait, I'm Jomodi. What's up?

Basically, from his point on, No way. I'm Jim Odey. What's up? Basically, from his point on, the fledgling version of Heaven's Gate moves from a freeform spiritual kind of network to a more disciplined religious class with tea and dough as their soul instructors. Once in seclusion. Yes, Jesse. I'm just curious. They don't have anyone named Ray Yes, Jesse. I'm just curious. They don't have anyone named Ray or me. Like they just hate tea and dough. Tea and no, yeah, that's they didn't do the Doremi fossil. There's it like no guy named to fall to no, no, this is the last two. They're the last two parts of Doremi fossil. Let's eat dough. No, they're not. I guess they are. Yeah. Yeah. But they're also the first dough is better because you get to be the beginning and the end, which is bad ass. That's the date. I should have been leading

this call. This call sucks. It's just not it's just yeah, it's like, it's just not aesthetically cool. Like it's not convincing me to go. Yeah. No, it's not. It's convincing me to leave if I'm if I if I was because I feel like out of the three of us, I probably would have been the one be like you're the most cult vuln. I'll go to a UFO cult specifically Just cuz like just cuz the UFO I want to see a UFO like yeah, I don't know Maybe I'm bored if they'd me in the 1970s

I'm probably really fucking for me if it was like a like deep dive into Kojima's Work you would I think you would, but out of not like true belief out of pure curiosity and you would walk away without even worrying about it. That's what's almost walks me right into Scientology so many times. I think you're just like, I just, I'm curious. I'm a curious boy.

I'm just saying they do offer free lunches in LA. So like that's pretty good. Yeah. And Jesse, the minute you heard about androgynous evolution, you would have bounced. You wouldn't even made it past recruitment. I can't. Yeah, I can't do any of that. It wouldn't work. Yeah. I'm not a fan of, I'm not a fan of like, uh, becoming Ken.

In concept cute, but I've seen the Barbie movie. You know what? Yeah. It's not for me. Not no. And once they had everybody in seclusion, they developed an intense regimen of behavioral controls and spiritual exercises that were designed to remake the members into obedient, shed your humanity trainees for the next level.

Daily life was governed by a growing list of strict rules that touched every aspect of these people's behavior. Many of these rules had existed informally in a kind of loose way during their 1975 nomadic traveling era. But in the late 1970s, they became far more codified and enforced, partly due to both T&O secluding themselves from the flock and coming to the realization that they need to kind of like latch everything down. All personal possessions and money had already been surrendered and left behind. Now those resources, what was left, like their belongings that they had in their back and

what they were able to take in like a single suitcase, were had to be pulled together for the group's needs. The community lived nomadically at first, camping in tents, makeshift shelters on public lands, remote locales, with followers sleeping in sleeping bags under the stars, or crammed into a few communal campers, the group was able to purchase after finally getting all their funds together and taking some jobs out in like the small town. They were able to actually like settle down to like a tiny little building of their own for a time.

They wanted the West anonymously. But when they were able to kind of settle down, they were able to lay down the rules even stricter because no longer do they have to then also worry about where they were going to be sleeping for the night where they're going to be, you know, eating the next day. How much money do they have really removing the barrier of just baseline survival, in my opinion, allowed both Applewhite and nettles to even if they didn't realize it was going to happen, step into that cult leader role even more because now they have the freedom to really nail down

how they want to keep these people under control. Even if they fully believe they're going to go to a UFO and all this shit, they still and there might need to ensure that these people are going to go. And that means they have to be ensured that they live a very specific way. That is so, that is so like, that is so much. I'm so interested in how they do that because it's so. We're going to go through it. Yeah, it's just so like, I remember I was reading the book about the doors like Jim Jim Morrison

from the doors yeah like studied like how to control large groups of people yeah and this dude just is like I hear you saying that he's like can be hypnotizing to some people but I'm just like how did he do that how did he inspire this level of like loyalty in people it's crazy to me yeah they would even rely on sympathetic, like, uh, churches for food and lodging a lot of the time as well. When they were just like kind of wandering around, they just didn't have anything.

Well, I mean, wouldn't that also like that is a tactic, right? To say, if you have nothing, the only person can rely on is the person leading you. Yeah, absolutely correct. You're going to see a lot of cult tactics that are operated more openly led by people like Jim Jones, operating in a way that is similar here, but under the guise of true belief, because Jim Jones, I would one day I will do Jim Jones too, but I don't think he was a true believer like these guys were

I know we're like doing a lot of laughing at how ridiculous this cult is have to but what's interesting and I think is very important is that we are showing here that knowledge and being able to ask questions is absolutely how you prevent yourself from ending up in a situation where you are in a cult. Like being able to say like, this seems weird. And hearing us say this now could save you later. Patreon.com slash. That's also there's this like it feels like a really apt time and in our modern existing history to tap into cults again and talk about cults again for specific reasons. I don't know what you mean. Yeah, me either. I just kind of like improv there for now. That makes sense.

But yeah, these guys like again,, they do these cult-like things that really kind of just rest control on these people. So let's go over what they did specifically as they were like locked in their regimented lifestyle. First on the list, as we said like nine times already, but I reiterate, inside the group, members were expected to erase their former lives.

This meant, no, this is rule one, no contact with family or outside friends, that means letters, phone calls were all forbidden except in rare, heavily supervised circumstances. Many disciples of the two of them had already abandoned spouses, young children, and even close relationships to join them, and now those sacrifices were made permanent. Reminiscing about one's past or using even their old name was utterly discouraged, and the body each person inhabited was no longer, you don't refer to yourself as a body, the body itself is me, you refer to your body simply as a vehicle or vessel. That's all it is. Your body is a vessel for you. It's a vehicle for what's really you, a temporary container for the soul. And talking about one's vehicles, quote unquote, past was seen as indulging human ego and entirely off limits. Do you like immediately do you see this mental suffering of physical fucking reality right from the

fucking get literally it's spooky. Yeah, I don't like that. It's also like in that very gross. Oh super gross. It also makes you rethink like you know the notion they always they tell you at Disneyland that they build the walls high so that you can't see out. Yes. Forget where you're at.

Yeah, even. Yeah. You forget where you're at. Yeah. Even. Yeah. It's like that in a weird, scary, dangerous, suicidal way. The other thing they did to further strip away individuality and their humanists members had to adopt uniformed clothing and grooming. By the late seventies, the group had begun dressing in unisex, kind of just drab looking attire, often loose shirts and slacks with everyone donning short cropped hairstyles for men and women alike.

They just all had the same haircut. This androgynous uniform was intended to minimize gender and sexuality because they knew if you're going to keep a bunch of people in a cult together, they're going to want to fuck at some point. Someone's going to get on a war somebody and they needed to discourage that at all times. Creature comforts were also scant. The diet was Spartan pleasure and eating was completely discouraged.

Like you're not allowed to enjoy food. So meals were just simple and often repetitive. In later years, they even experimented with extreme diets like the master cleanse, which is like a lemonade fast as spiritual disciplines. Though such practices were still kind of early in the late 1970s. It wasn't all that like known back then.

I mean, admittedly, that was one of Jesus's best teachings was the lemonade cleanse. Yep. He was like, when you attend your spaceship, remember, bring lemonade for all. You're just absolutely mangled spiritually and emotionally because you have no like connection with anybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're health. You're not healthy. You feel like shit all the time. You're like bleary and you can't do anything. And somebody's like, you're going to be free really soon. You just got to wait and then you die.

Yeah. Remember, like this is a group of people that had to make a decision and like usually 24 to 48 hours who had to have already been vulnerable to like, basically wanting to leave this earth. Like I don't want to be here. That is the point of this cult you are leaving. So they're already vulnerable, already susceptible to this and are likely very depressed. Just a lot of like societal outcasts jumped into this. And yeah, so like food, all like had to be basically unenjoyable.

And obviously all recreational drugs, alcohol and tobacco were strictly banned. None of it. Even most forms of recreation and entertainment, which meant usually no television, no listening to popular music, no reading secular books or magazines. Every hour of the day was scheduled and accounted for often down to the minute for these people. But sometimes creature comforts were allowed. Specifically they would, when during their nomadic times, they would bring a little TV, a TV and plug it in via the cigarette like plug of the of the car.

And Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica, I believe it was were allowed to be watched. And but that was because they're like UFO adjacent. Yeah, it was like allowed. And I just like, I just like it was like, I guess enough of a utopia in their mind of like to be honestly you want to know why here's the answer and it's very obvious they want to call leaders wanted to watch it and so they're gonna allow it. Yeah, exactly.

They're fans of Star Trek and we're like, you know what religious reasons we're allowed. So that's so lame. Yeah, no, I mean, yeah. That's so lame. Yeah, I know. I mean, yeah, it's not hardcore. Yeah. It's so dumb. Yeah. All this as if running a spiritual bootcamp, basically one X member later

said, quote, it was like the military, all those procedures annoying and often kept you tired, which made sense. Cause you were also meant to be. They would often pair people up that they deemed would not be attracted to each other because to monitor one another, because they didn't want people boning like that was often what it was. And they wouldn't allow the pair to linger as a pair for too long. And they would swap up pairs constantly.

But the problem was with the more diminishing pool of people, the pairs are eventually going to be repeated. And the faster I mean, the faster the pair swap people, the pairs are eventually gonna be repeated. And the faster, I mean, the faster the pair swap out, the faster you're gonna bone, I feel like. Damn right, exactly. The most challenging demand was the absolute prohibition of sex. No romantic attachment or any expression of sexuality

whatsoever, including masturbation. None. You can't touch yourself. It's, you're done. You have to stop. You, if you ever look at your dick. It's you're done. You have to stop you if you ever look at your dick You're the man. You have to stop aliens won't let you go Stop it. If you stop you keep touching your pee-pee stop it cut it out Apple whites own personal struggles obviously with the sexual identity and the guilt informed this rule heavily He was thrilled when he met Bonnie Nettles where he could have a sexless relationship

with somebody that he deemed like his soul partner aka his bestie his best friend. Sexual thoughts were to be confessed and overcome as obstacles to reach the next level. So even if you had or any thoughts you were expected to admit them to enforce and like give them away. Yeah, and like yeah, exactly To enforce celibacy and suppress these urges tea and dough implemented a partner a check partner system stop like what's his face in Congress who in his son they have that like Watch porn. Yeah. Yeah, what did you watch and watches his son?

What did you watch porn? Yeah, yeah. What did you watch and watch this? Is you want to make sure they watch porn? What did you watch, Pop? What did you watch? Was only down to three hours this week, son. What can I say? You're old man just can't whack it like you used to. Any good pop? Oh, God. Yeah.

So they had a check partner system like that. And each member was paired with another and the duo had to do virtually everything together. Study, chores, even sleep in the same area. Importantly, again, it's some weird decisions. How did they not think every single person was going to like- Well, like I said earlier, they deliberately match people who would not get along easily or be attracted to one another,

often pairing opposite genders, if any spark was suspected, or pairing gay members together in order to confront their desires. They would often, they would either pair people together to keep it, or they would pair people together that were horny for each other to force them to confront their desires head on.

Destroy them. Yes, and yeah, in a way, partners observed each other and were required to report any infractions of the rules, creating this mutual surveillance that kind of just got rid of privacy altogether. These pairings were rotated frequently to prevent deep bombs from forming and even friendships or clear clicks were viewed as undermining loyalty to the group and the uniformity as a whole. All relationships had to be fully subordinate to one's relationship with tea and dough. That's it.

To further purify thoughts, periods of complete silence, if you remember, known as tomb time, were imposed. Yeah, during tomb time, tomb time, stop. Yeah, during tomb time. Tomb time. It's tomb time. Stop, drop, and roll. It's tomb time. When you have dirty thoughts, you get put into tomb time.

Get your shovel. It's tomb time. And during tomb time, which could last days, no one was allowed to speak unless absolutely necessary. And members communicated only in writing or not at all, fostering this atmosphere of like monastic contemplation that was their goal or obedience. But it was just utter torture. In one unusual mental exercise,

Applewhite would even tap a tuning fork on students' heads and attempt to vibrate out human thoughts or negative energy. What? It's tomb time, come here. Ding. Did he think it was actually toon time? Maybe dude. He was like, tomb time.

It was like tomb time. Wait a minute. Tomb time. That gives me an idea. Come here Do you feel the negative energy leaving you hey, that's real dumb you guys Insane dude, oh my god hunker down. It's tune time Nettles puts you in tomb time so that Applewhite can have tune time.

God. One of the people in the in the cult said denying every facet of humanness from sexuality and food enjoyment to personal possessions relationships and individual identity was was the work that was required to overcome. Where do they get this idea though? Uh, well, the vision. Okay. So that comes from both Apple whites owned illusions, his, his hallucinations, of course, and merged with the theosophy of nettles.

So like the, in order to overcome humanist to evolve beyond it, you have to no longer need it, feel it. It's like, I understand, but it's like a weird, like, no, I can't say no other, but most other Judeo Christian religions, that's not the vibe. Well, they turn, they turn Jesus into like, that's what Jesus did kind of thing. And that's like, like it just isn't, but in their Lord their Lord is in that's that's where he went. He didn't ascend to heaven. He sent it to a UFO that was going to take him to

heaven, which is a physical place that isn't in this that we talked about last week. Yeah. Other than that, like, it's just like, maybe they're, it's just what their beliefs kind of led them to believe this shit. Like, they went into seclusion, they basically like, really codified everything, their beliefs, how they're going to do it. And when they came back out of seclusion, their flock, they're like, all right, here's how we're doing this. And this beliefs, how they're going to do it. And when they came back out as a collusion, their flock, they're like, all right, here's how we're doing this.

And this is what, how we're going to get there. Um, yeah, it's just, it's just, I don't know why that's just how it is. Uh, yeah. The, so yeah, the guy said denying every facet of humanists from sexuality and food enjoyment, to personal possessions, relationships, and identity was the work. This was required to overcome and prepare the vehicle for its ultimate cosmic transformation and by framing this like extreme aestheticism as the only work. This was required to overcome and prepare the vehicle for its ultimate cosmic transformation. And by framing this like extreme aestheticism as the only path to salvation, T&O induced

members not only to accept like deprivation, but to embrace it as a necessary clarification. We like our mundanity and uniformity is because we're better than the luciferians Yeah, like we need to lose all our money and social welfare right now so then later rich people can have all the money because they picture us as like Wildly just barbaric fucking all the time doing all of what we care about and it's not about ascending and becoming something better man It's about staying on earth and fucking all the time hell yeah they don't even they don't know that they don't realize heaven is a place baby that we can all go and it's not on earth I mean like well depending on I know it's a song

do heaven is a place on earth that's what Lucifer is going to believe like that's what that's that's a Luciferian that's a Luciferian song Jesse to. Like that's what that's that's a Luciferian. That's a Luciferian song, Jesse, to convince you that. Yeah, it's pretty great, isn't it? Yeah, it's pretty great. I like it. It's a good song. Yeah, within their insult, within the insular logic of the classroom, suffering and self-denial were virtues that proved one's commitment

to be moving on to the next level and turning inward in 1976 also meant strengthening internal hierarchy and social control. Applewhite and Nettle solidified their roles as the top of a strict hierarchy with no middle leadership tolerated, unlike Jim Jones, who had a council of trusted members that he also had to keep people always in fighting with themselves. They were the sole source of truth, referred to affectionately, like I said, as the teachers or older members, while others were known as younger members or students. And in effect, Heaven's Gate became what scholars call a totalistic environment.

The leaders had say over nearly all aspects aspects of the followers lives. Sociologists who even studied this group noted that all this change in 1976 from a loose network that it became to a high hierarchical social structure predicated on the leaders absolute control was the shifting point that was there was no returning from. And indeed the two of them exercise control not through physical coercion but through a powerful mix of the charisma of Applewhite, no matter what you think of him, carefully crafted ritualistic behavior and psychological manipulation that bound the group,

almost like a trauma bond, grouping them tightly together. And at medicine BoCamp, dissension quickly arose as the reality of the harsh rules that they came out of their seclusion with began setting in. Some of the newer recruits balked at giving up drugs or struggled with celibacy, that they came out of their seclusion with began setting in. Some of the newer recruits balked at giving up drugs or struggled with celibacy, like I think most people fucking would.

Others were simply not used to taking orders. They said, fuck this shit. It's just not right. Yeah, simple as that. Exactly. And sensing this, Team Do decided to draw a firm line. They expelled 19 members later in that year who were deemed insufficiently committed

or who challenged the new guidelines completely. And those individuals were essentially told to leave camp, which was a very traumatic kind of event for the cult at the time. It was a traumatic ejection for people who had abandoned their former lives to be there because not everybody in this that they were ejecting were people that wanted to leave. They really, I think, you know, in a manipulative way, we're like, okay, people want to leave, then we're going to put people in there that don't want to leave. And

we're going to make an example because that means there will be tears. That means people are going to be sad, which is also something they can point to as human and why they're getting rid of them in the first place. Like, there's a lot there in lumping people together with the people who did wanna lose. What kind of conversation do you have about that though? Like, are they really talking like that behind the scenes? We do not know what they talked about when they,

because they never spoke about it. And Applewhite, very, I think, purposefully kept his relationship with Nettles very mystical, very vague, weird, determined, we're the destined ones, we have the visions, don't worry about what we talk about. Like, so we don't really know because they didn't have anybody trusted beyond the two of them. So there was no fourth or third or fourth or fifth individual in the room with them when they were making these decisions to just we so we don't know. We don't know. Man, I know. It's it's it's it really makes a difference. Like,

because if you believe that you're really who you are, you're not thinking that way. Right? Like theoretically, right? There has to be some part of you that knows that it's all bullshit. If you're trying to manipulate people. Yeah. And well, we're gonna get to that we'll talk about like did they truly believe because I think they did At the same time many others drifted away on their own other than those 19 as winter especially as winter approached They were disillusioned that no UFO had arrived as initially hinted and unwilling to endure the private The privatization of their lives, living in the camp.

And they decided to fuck it. We're going back home. I'm not staying here, but I know. So yeah, fuck it. We're going back. And by October of 1976, the once up to that point, a little, uh, like 150 to 200 strong cult had widowed itself down or wind. Yeah.

Widowed itself down to less than 70 members. To give you an idea of how many people got shut off as they were like, OK, here are the fucking rules. The devoted remnant who accepted the authority of the two of them and their new classroom regimen, notably once this consolidation was done, the rate of defection slowed dramatically. The people who were there stayed. Those who remained were the true believers.

And granted, by the time the suicide happened in 1997, there were only 39 of them. At this point, suicide still isn't part of the curriculum. That's not what they're expecting to happen. Only two that are supposed to die are the two leaders. Their bodies, as they evolve, will just naturally shed, like the followers, and they don't have to go through a dying process like the two of them will.

Group cohesion was reinforced through ritualized loyalty tests. One illustrative kind of just incident occurred really early on. Remembered by the former member, Dick Joslin, T&O called a meeting of the camp, but a few members failed to show up. Maybe there were no one really knows why maybe Jocelyn I can't, of course I'm laughing. That's such a good name, bro.

Holy fuck. Holy shit. Fucking dick dude. Jocelyn dude. It's like, yeah, it's one of those names that's like, oh, it's dirty, but like, it takes a minute. You got to figure that out. That's so good.

We talk a lot about the Chiluminati as a secret society on this show. You need to start a secret society of dudes with penis names. Yeah. You guys got to find each other. Dig Joslin dude. We're like, we don't know each other. How did you let this happen? The Joslin family, Mr.

And Mrs. Joslin, what were you doing? So what happened? The thing with Joslin is like, he, we learned about that because he was a former member of heaven's gate, but he still committed suicide in a motel. Not that long after, in a, like a mirroring, but with like trying to still do it. Like they mirrored the way he could. They killed themselves and like with the, with the sneakers and the uniform and all that shit.

They will get like, yeah, that's depressing as hell too. God. Yeah, no, sorry. Uh, but yeah, Dick, we learned this from Dick Jocelyn. So we learned the story from them. Uh, teen dough called a meeting of the camp, but a few members failed to show up. Rather than angrily reprimand them, Applewhite and Nettles reacted with wounded disappointment. They somberly announced that they would depart for a while to contemplate how they had failed

as leaders, implying that the group's lapse was their fault, taking on them like using guilt to manipulate. This unexpected response threw the members into kind of an emotional turmoil. When T&O temporarily withdrew, the camp was immediately overcome with guilt and fear. Hours later, the two returned, saying they'd reconsidered. The effect was dramatic. Members wept with shame and relief when they returned. Oh my God.

They literally like, it's a Stockholm syndrome. It reminds me of stock market syndrome, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no shit. Yeah, in that moment, loyalty to these people intensified with the simple act of leaving for a few hours and coming back. So stupid. The students felt they had nearly lost their beloved guide due to their own shortcomings

Such psychological ploys were I think intended Then help bond the group even more tightly to the leaders. Why would they need to do that if they really are? Like the new Jesus. Yeah, I well I think it wouldn't be up to their followers to follow them then Yeah, but the the turning point for them was them bleeding Over a hundred and some odd people they had they were 200 strong doing what they were doing and as they like introduced some new rules They bled everybody instead of going. Oh wait, it's the rules that are driving people away. They said oh wait Let's make the rules stricter and that'll stop people from leaving, which is true.

They care. Yeah. Yeah. Bad daycare, which is true to a certain extent, but by tightening your grip, you're going to lose even more people over time. Um, but yeah, this, this little moment, this little psychological torture moment just worked, uh, the bond, there was a bonding with them, and T&O's almost parental hold after this event became even stronger. It was a prime example of the two of their subtle control methods using disappointment, guilt, and absence, rather than a lot of other tactics like threats or chastising them in

some more extreme ones, physical punishment. But despite the increasingly regimented atmosphere, the two of them often reminded members that participation was voluntary, of course. Well, of course it was, right, right. Yeah, of course. They acknowledged the hardships of the lifestyle and would say things like,

you're free to leave at any time, like most cult members do. This was not benevolence, obviously. It served an important function in the cult. By openly granting permission to leave at any time. Like most cult members do. This was not benevolence. Obviously it served an important function in the cult by openly granting permission to leave the leaders immediately undercut any building resentment or feeling of entrapment because they're, they can immediately say you're not trapped here. You can just go. Those who stayed did so reaffirming their own choice in the process, which in turn strengthen their commitment.

Legit Rapunzel vibes. Yeah. Legit Rapunzel vibes. Yep. Periodically, a disaffected member or two did choose to leave quietly in the late 70s, but the two leaders did not try to stop them. In fact, Applewhite later noted that he made a point of providing carefully chosen opportunities, those are his quotes, for people to exit if they weren't all in. As a result, by early eighties, Heaven's Gate consisted of a stable core of several dozen extremely devoted members and virtually no casual hangers on. So yeah, even through the guilt and having them be like, you can leave at any time, Applewhite

still went out of his way to be like, hey, I know the door is open, but I'm going to hold the door for you. You can leave right now. Don't worry about it. You know, the world recycling will happen and you'll get another chance. You know, that kind of thing. Some people took it because sometimes you need an off ramp. Sometimes if you're so deep saying you're allowed to leave isn't enough.

You need someone to walk up to you and give you that off-ramp and apple white unlike a lot of other cult members provided the always own off-ramp for the not mega like Extremist devoted folk. It's the I can quit smoking whenever I want. Yeah, but it's also like on the other side of it. It's like Anybody who's gonna leave just get rid of them. Like yes, it's like it anybody who's gonna leave, just get rid of them. Like, yes, it's like, it's like, you want to just, like, you know, distill your balsamic vinegar down. You want to like cook it down to the most, most hardcore people only, and just control them. Because any dissent within the ranks is just as damaging, and you might as well just get rid of them. Yeah. Yeah. You do not want to send, you don't need to like do violence against them and lose more people.

You know what I mean? It also has the vibe of, um, I don't want to, we'll say a certain show recently existed on HBO. That was very, very good. And the idea of your taking people that haven't done anything wrong and still booting them. of your taking people that haven't done anything wrong and still booting them. It's a good way of showing that you're still in control and to drive fear into like, if for example, three of us were in a cult and Mathis, you were the best of my cultists. You were so, so you're like the number one cultists.

I suck dick like nobody else. I would be afraid that you might in some way lead other cult members to follow you instead of me. So even though you're the best, no one sucks your dick better than me in the call. So, you know, I'm good, right? Which is why I have to boot you because you're so good. You're a threat to me. And when I want, when people see you crying, they're like, he was the best of us.

What was the matter? I can say he wasn't fully invested. He was crying so hard. Yeah. And so while you're sobbing, everyone else is like, Oh my God, I got to work even harder. And then also subtly applies. They're better than even the best because they didn't get kicked out. Sure. I'm just saying the piglet HBO was very, very good anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Think about it. So they do that tactic. Then they do the tactic of you can leave anytime you want,

which furthers that feedback loop. And then he then even gives you, hey, I'm going to set up little events, not to kick people out, but to provide an exit. If you want to leave, I am not going to hold it against you. And that means the people who did stay further separated them from the outside world and strengthened their resolve even further. You really are.

Like you said, like Alex said, you're you're really bringing it down to like when you cook, you're just like reducing it down to the very, very most dedicated. You're getting the ones out of there. Within the group, Rolls remained relatively egalitarian amongst everyone with the exception of T&O, then their supreme status. There was no formal priesthood, no ranks among the students. Everyone was ostensibly equal in the classroom, all working on the same lesson. However, in practice, certain

long time adherence became kind of de facto aids to the leaders. For example, Gary or his new name, McCrody. McCrody? MR Cody. Yeah, McCrody. Wait, what was his real Gary? But they made the YMR. That's just what they do. They gave you two to three letters. Cody dude is McCrody McCrody. McCrody. He was one of the earliest members. McCrody is is like when a murder is super grody. It's McCrody. It's McCrody.

Brody dude. So yeah, so McCrdy and Dick Jocelyn, because he's still at the member. Wait, Dick Jocelyn got to keep his name, dude. No, I didn't. That's hilarious. You get to keep. Uh, eventually the two, uh, so good one, Dick. Good one. The two of them eventually took on administrative organizational duties, helping Nettles with logistics. Because Bonnie was the brains. She like very much the logistics of it all. Jocelyn in particular became Applewhite's close assistant in later years.

These senior students would help enforce rules or coordinate moves, acting as monitors with the authority of both T and Doe behind them. Still, T and Doe made all doctrinal decisions and important judgments, even if they did have trusted quote-unquote assistants or advisors. They occasionally shuffled members into different small task groups and would even isolate a particularly wavering member with extra supervision if needed. Peer pressure was integral to how this all worked. If one person started questioning, their check partner or others would often report it and the group would address it

swiftly, either through gentle counseling or by reminding the person that maybe this wasn't the right path for them and you should leave buddy, you should probably leave. Over time, Heaven's Gate cultivated an almost family-like dynamic, but one deliberately stripped away of any worth and intimacy because that's too human. Members called each other classmates or very sci-fi crew. They were part of the crew that was going to be heading out to the UFO. They were encouraged to be supportive and practical tasks but not to form emotional attachments. All affection was redirected to the next level. New entrance before recruitment ceased and would sometimes be, would informally

be mentored by older students on how to rid themselves of old habits, yet again, introducing this subtle, if not officially acknowledged hierarchical system that existed amongst them. And I mean, it makes sense if you get a group of these people, even when the two leaders are not there, the longer they hang out, the more certain people are like seen as more experienced. Somebody's been there for years. You were recruited in the last month before they closed the harvesting. They're going to know things about the cult that you don't. And in that knowledge, they become like a little bit like hierarchical above you because they know things. Don't shake your hand at that. Oh man, they closed off the harvest harvesting, man.

And when I say like interpersonal interaction was like looked over by both Applewhite and nettles, it was often quite literally in group meetings, members might even publicly confess minor rule breachers or human level thoughts that they themselves committed, not even ratting out to their partner, reinforcing the norm that one's primary relationship was to the group and its purpose, and further reinforcing to show how dedicated they are by openly saying it without having to be caught by their partner than getting ratted out for it. And if a member grew too despondent or rebellious, the two leaders might have the group collectively pray for them.

Or conversely do the complete opposite and socially cut them off, distance themselves from that person as if to signal it's time for you to go. This is not the funnest place to hang. No, it sucks. cool no drugs the only TV you're allowed to watch is Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica it's not that bad so there's no TV it's not like it's funny Battlestar yeah it's not about a star yes not the Battlestar we're digging out but that no that's neither you nor there in this

situation sure whatever whatever the case it was very clear they were there that the two leaders were saying and embracing total dependence on them for their own sense of approval, direction and self self worth. And by the end of the 70s, Heaven's Gate had true a fully transformed from that freewheeling experimental UFO mission of 1975 into one scholars end up calling a discipline centralized and deeply isolated religious movement. The boundary between the group and the outside world was sharply defined

once more. In fact, far more, uh, sharply than during their earlier public phase members now lived in a self-contained reality with their own jargon, definition, names, routines, and even truth truth a reality in which apple white and nettles were the gatekeepers to salvation and although the group remained nomadic for a while even after medicine bow their mode of living evolved in this period from tense to more stable if secretive quarters as 1976 came to an end t&o led the crew out of the mountains

They dispersed into smaller units for a small time just to avoid attention One report noted that the the class begins breaking up here is kind of what they referred to in internally with some okay, you know Yeah, well snow's coming and they're like shit living in the mountains of Wyoming while during the winter is just not gonna fucking work This is not gonna we're gonna die if we keep doing this so while the core the the core regrouped in 1977 in the American Southwest and a fortunate windfall aided aided them one member had a substantial inheritance or trust fund come through while they were coming back together oh my god there's like perfect timing for the like families bad except when money looks like he got a

letter from a lawyer basically being like, because they while they were allowed to talk like the outside, T and O had a PO box that they specifically could go to and stuff so mail would come in even if it wasn't given to them. So they got the news before the dude did and yeah and. And then they told him, Oh my God, that's horrible. Okay. Do you think they informed him that we got a letter or do you think they were like, we have word from the ship?

Cause I don't think they'd be like, yeah, we got this letter delivered for you, but we opened it because like, you don't care about that. Right? If I wasn't called there like them in this spot, I'm cult leader. I would have tried to frame it. I think, how would I do this? I would try to, I would try to, I think I'll try to present it as a test. You lost a family member. You're going to be sad. Sadness is human. That's bad. But guess what you get? It gave us a gift. This is going to allow you to save all of us. Like get us a place to live and not be in the snow when

winter is coming basically. I think that's how I would do it because I don't know what the specific conversation they had was. But as the windfall fell, one with the sudden inheritance, the sudden influx of money allowed the cult to upgrade their lifestyle from constant camping to renting modest houses. And by 1978 to 1979, Heaven's Gate quietly maintained communal residences in at least two locations, Denver, Colorado area, and later the Dallas Fort Worth area. They chose basically just unremarkable suburban homes where a dozen or more members could live under the radar all in one house, often posing as like a large family or a bunch of students sharing a house. I'd like to imagine a lot of the middle-aged people just being like,

hey, we're all just students renting the house, going to college down the street. Old school. Yeah. Movie. These houses became the new classrooms. Curtains were kept completely drawn. Neighbors saw little of them besides maybe a few individuals coming and going for grocery runs or work. One former member recalled that at the peak in the late 1970s, there were several hundred members is like when we had the houses and it's a hundred of them.

Most however, most people who talk about this particular individual say that it's likely an overestimation. He's likely overestimating how many people were there. More precise counts suggest a few dozen by then. So I don't know where he got that number. And that member and that members even had to sign out for their car keys and IDs when leaving homes. So they had a whole system in each house that was completely secret that has kept tabs on everybody.

There's another indicator basically of how controlled even the comings and goings were. This group was shown publicly so thoroughly that during the 1970s and 80s that no public meetings were held, no new converts were ever sought, and they didn't even adopt anybody who may have found them. At this time, the name Total overcomers anonymous was their new name. No longer are they H I M their total overcomers anonymous. It's just, man, total overcomers anonymous, not a great, you know, for an acronym that makes any sense. That's a celibate. That's a celibate group. The overcomers I overcoming the overcoming, overcoming, overcoming with Dick Jocelyn. Fuck dude. He could add

a killer podcast. If he just held on for another decade, he didn't put a gun to his head. I really want, I really want to do a podcast called overcoming with Jesse Cox. Like that. Yes. So I have no idea what that podcast would be, but like Cox and his, and his podcast partner, Dick Jocelyn, Dick Jocelyn and Jesse Cox. My name was Jack Cox. That'd be better, but like still good stuff. Can you like make a point and click adventure based around Jack Cox and Dick Jocelyn Jocelyn? I mean, no, no, no, no one no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no it was reflecting their focus on overcoming human ways. Though to the outside world that they had effectively just vanished. Nobody knows where they went.

And it would actually be 16 years from 1976 to 1992 before Heaven's Gates leaders held any other public recruitment meetings. During the early 80s, the remaining members lived a kind of dual existence. In the sanctuaries of their group homes They practiced the strict disciplines that both t&o laid out holding class sessions meditating reviewing teachings and meticulously performing their daily routines

But periodically money would run low and the entire community would have to go Go object a term that they used meaning they had to go Go object a term that they used meaning they had to go re-engage with the outside world and the luciferians for money. And it's like go object, go be like take the vessel and go used and become a tool of the world. Members would always usually take up temporary jobs using aliases or even collect unemployment or social security checks from their past lives selves if available, if they were deemed dead or whatnot. In these times, the leaders are lacked certain rules just enough to allow interaction with society and not be too weird. However, they often choreograph these interactions

very carefully. Teams of two would be sent to find work, always keeping each other in check. Any income earned was turned over to the common pot and they were frugal, often buying bulk rice, beans, and cheap staples to stretch their budget as far as they could. The inherited funds mentioned earlier may have been used to purchase vehicles or cover medical expenses, which would become critical for Bonnie Lou Nettles, but exact details as to how it was spent is scarce.

What is clear is that through the early 80s, the group managed to stay solvent and together largely by blending in when necessary and withdrawing whenever possible. So effectively did they stay out of sight in the 80s that some family members assumed that the group disbanded because they just went away. They disappeared when in fact they just went underground. That would explain a lot of you saying they were on TV and stuff in the 70s and it was a big thing and this I mean again I would have been a child

like a baby boy in the 80s or yeah but in the 90s I remember this happening and how weird it was so the fact that they weren't on anyone's radar and then they reappeared and then it's died checks out in a way that's like, oh, 16 years, they went silent. Like, and it's easier back then there's no internet, you know, that kind of shit. Like, it's way easier to kind of like, just walk away and disappear into society if you so choose further separating themselves. But people didn't know. And despite the outward quiet internally, this was another turning point formative period

for Heaven's Gate's theology and practices. The classroom model really truly crystallized here. Members saw themselves as students in a divine school, rigorously training for graduation. They even developed a unique vocabulary to describe their lives. The earth was the garden or the soul-catching basin. The home was the craft. Sleeping was tanking or recharging one's vessel. Illness was a quote unquote yeast infection code for influences that needed to be cured. Everything was just a yeast infection. Yeah. Yeah. If you

were sick, you just said I have a yeast infection. Yeah. Then the mistakes were boogers because they were to be wiped away. This quasi-scientific, quasi-childlike jargon, much of it introduced by Bonnie herself, who had a fondness for playful language, further separated them even further. Again, it's another step of cutting them off from human society because now you're speaking in a language. Only a couple dozen of you even understand you can't walk up to somebody and call the earth the soul catching basin. They won't know what the fuck you're talking about. There's a weird level to this.

Yeah, like calling your cat your child is cute, fun, playful language. Yeah, for this. All that shit is like wipe away the boogers. And you'll use the book as Dick Jocelyn with his yeast infection in his book. It's Dick Jocelyn doesn't get, I don't know what time I was away. The book is, but yeah, it was just further separated them from fucking society. It gave them abstract kind of this obedience. It gave abstract obedience, this kind of practical feel following a rule now wasn't just moral to it was deemed staying tuned or maintain

Or maintaining one's vibrational frequency correctly So new in yeah, yeah And throughout the late 70s into the 80s, the T&O also adjusted their prophetic timetable and cosmology, the cosmology changed in response to earlier letdowns because the UFO hadn't arrived yet. Uh, they were basically trying while they were public in the seventies and eighties when they were very public, they basically were trying to, and we can, this is like a

whole other episode that I don't want to do because it's just long. But they're trying to basically instigate society being angry with them because they wanted to be fucking killed by bullets. That was part of it. Yeah, you know, the Luciferians were going to kill them. They were going to get shot. And when they die, they will rise in three and a half days and whatever. They were trying to die by cop, die by whatever. That was their goal. It never happened.

Yeah, it never happened. They were not aggressive enough. They weren't trying to die by cop die by whatever that was their goal. It never happened. Yeah, it never happened. They were not aggressive enough. They weren't trying to murder people. They were just being a weird religious cult, but it didn't work. So they lost members and they find themselves here. Time to change their prophetic timetable and their cosmology. Initially in 1975, they preached that the two witnesses and their students might be taken up bodily into a spaceship, perhaps after some public martyrdom and resurrection

event. When none of that happened, they began to teach a more open ended schedule for salvation. More open ended. That's all I would say. That's what I say. This is definitely it. That's what it seems. They told the class that they were in the quote unquote, the process of overcoming and that

the actual exit to the next level would only come when the chief God gave the signal. Meanwhile, that they must be ready at all times to keep anticipation alive. Nettles occasionally even pointed to events like natural disasters like all cults do as possible signs from chief himself, getting us ready. Chief, dude. Well, yeah, it's it's again, it's a they did what any good cult leader does. And they remove the end date from the equation, and keep them at a perpetual state of end of the

world edging. Yeah, they had a they had a concept of a plan for an end of the world. Yeah, they had a concept of a plan for an end of the world. Oh yeah, yeah, weird. These earthquakes in California, much like the hurricanes out in the liberal states, you know, those were signs from God that the reset was coming. Are you listening, people? Are you hearing? I will never, ever, ever forget that one dumb asshole like television, televangelist who said 9 11 was

because gay people. I'll never forget that shit. That was shit. Insane. And he's like, payment. It's God's wrath. I'm like, you stupid. They literally for like an example, when Mount St. Helens erupted in 1980, Applewhite speculated the cataclysm like might be like the sign that their departure or a significant window for it might be coming. That's what that means. Earthquakes in California or other unusual events were likewise imbued with like hopeful

meaning. I love the idea of earthquakes in California or otherwise unusual events. Literally, two days ago, I was on Monday. Yeah, two days ago, I was on a stream podcast at 10am as an earthquake is happening. I'm just saying they're continuing to talk like, come on now. Yeah, exactly. Dude, sale earthquakes in California are assigned is like a guaranteed bucket. Like you get a sink a shop with that because you're always gonna have an earthquake in California.

If there's anything terrible that will happen, come to me. Earthquakes in California, hurricanes in Florida, wildfires in the Northwest. If there's any tornadoes in the middle of America, come to me for those are the signs that chief is coming. Yeah. And of course, each time nothing fucking happened. Both T and O offered explanations and move the goalposts every single time. And remarkably, they often admitted their own errors in calculation with a sort of kind of frank humility. They just enough admission that they may have fucked up to make them believe that, oh, they're just human, but they they know like God's talking to them.

Apple White would say in essence, like, hey, we misinterpreted that sign. Hey, goose. Like, are bad. Here's the thing. Wacky, wacky, wacky numbers. That's on us. These candid acknowledgments of failed predictions bolstered his credibility among his faithful.

Of course, of course it did. It painted him as honest and fallible because, you know, he's still in a human vessel. And because he never gave a specific new date for pickup, the group settled into a patient, long haul, highly anxious mindset waiting, whether it be months, years or decades, if everything became this, this, this waiting just became another test of their devotion. And within the cocoon of their isolated community, Heavenscape theology grew more elaborate. T&O always had kind of a syncretic belief system, blending again, biblical apocalypse,

new age concepts, ufology. But in the late seventies and early eighties, they refined these ideas to address the challenges the group now faced. A key development was an increasing emphasis on metaphysical dualism. The idea that the body and the spirit or mind, as they often said, are distinct and the spirit must learn to completely dominate the body. In early teachings, they stress transforming the physical body into an immortal one. Now, now they nuanced that underscoring that the consciousness or soul was the real essence that would graduate that the human body or vehicle

was just a shell to be used and eventually discarded. And this is a seismic shift. While it may seem subtle, it had important implications. It prepared the groundwork for accepting that death might be a part of this journey in the end. An idea that had been an anathema in the beginning when they insisted transformation must occur without dying in this physical way. These doctrinal kind of tweaks often came in response to internal doubt because as with most cults Even if you have an infinite timeline

You eventually you know you hit the edge and the edge becomes normal now You need to make it more and make it more and make it more extreme you forget that there was like a normal way Before this you forget exactly the real actual baseline. That was like six entire lifestyles ago. Yeah, exactly. Correct. And so you're so deep now that leaving is almost akin to suicide because you have to leave the only thing you know, the language you speak, the lifestyle you've been living for years now, people who have been with it since the beginning are now as we enter the 80s, there are members of the cult that have been in this cult for a decade. Like it is they've been part of this from the beginning. How are they gonna go back? There's no going back to normal life at least not in their minds if you're in a cult though

There's always a way back. Just listen if you're in a cult. There's always a way back people will be there It doesn't matter how long you've been people who care and love you will be Ecstatic to see you come back doesn't matter if you've been away for weeks or years. And the whole point of a cult is to get you to believe that you can't go back. And that's what a lot of these people who've been there for years felt, that doubling down, that making them dependent. But there's always a way out. Even if it's not as easy as it could have been five years ago, 10 years ago, there's

always a way out. Regardless, like I said, these tweaks were made to quell these doubts because some followers quietly wondered as the years passed whether they would really turn into angelic aliens while still alive. So to quell them, that's when they frame the entire experience as a restorative process that could just take a long time. They introduced the concept of cycles. Perhaps this was just one cycle of

preparation for them. And a further cycle, either on Earth or aboard a spacecraft, would complete the metamorphosis. They reassured the class that no effort was wasted, even if they died, their progress would carry forward. So they're just stealing from like Eastern religions. They're not creative. They're not having they're not even calling themselves Heaven's Gate yet, dude. They're still total overcomers anonymous. They're not. That sucks that overcomers dude. Yeah. In practice, though, how overt talk of anyone dying was

still minimal before the mid 1980s. The party line remained that members would remain together and eventually enter the next level collectively. There were a few cracks in this facade because the most important thing that I haven't brought up fully yet that really changes the direction that this cult goes is Bonnie Nettles being diagnosed with cancer. In 1982, Bonnie Nettles had to undergo surgery to remove an eye dirt due to cancer. He had to lose an eye entirely. This was kept basically away from the group were very, very quiet

within the group. It was framed that Yeah, all right. It was it was framed as her vessel having an issue that was being corrected. The seriousness of her illness was downplayed completely. And part of me thinks it was done to keep the group together. But part of me also believes Applewhite was starting to panic because Bonnie was his everything, his best friend, his confidant, everything that he had ever known after leaving the mental institution and building this life together was built hand in hand with Bonnie and she's not supposed to die without him. This threw, I think, Applewhite into a bit of a panic. Like a crisis of faith, you think, really?

For a bit, yeah, I truly do. Nonetheless, caring for Bonnie during her illness tested the group's faith. She was the spiritual mother figure in all of this, and now she was suddenly physically vulnerable when they were supposed to be evolving into something greater, something no one expected of a person that they saw as an advanced extraterrestrial soul. An apple white in these moments became the glue, urging the students to direct prayers and positive thoughts to Bonnie and her recovery and to treat it as another test.

This was a test for them to heal their leader. That's what this was. Some later accounts suggest a few members had crises of faith during seeing a Bonnie so sick. But by and large, most remained steadfast, trusting that whatever happened was the chief's plan. The leaders themselves continued to stress that physical transformation was the goal, even if the path was mysterious.

Another area of subtle change was how they spoke of their roles. In the 70s, Applewhite and Nettle sometimes hinted to followers that they might themselves be the returning Christ or come from Jesus' celestial family, just on the Jesus family tree. And by the 80s, they were more openly embracing the notion that Doe was in fact the present embodiment of the second coming spirit. Not Jesus of Nazareth per se, but the same next level entity that had been in the vessel that was known as Jesus now operating through who else but Marshall Herf Applewhite. Same soul, different body, not Jesus, but Jesus, you know, and

other son, Holy Ghost, little Holy Ghost, not the same. Yeah, exactly. Not the same ghost, but a Holy one. Nonetheless, only ish, a Holy Ghost like entity. And that leaves you to wonder, well, then what are they framing Bonnie as during all this? If he's Jesus and she's like the really the glue. Well, Mrs.

Claus. Yeah, Mrs. Claus. And she brought presents every year. No, she was cast as the elder partner or the Heavenly Father figure just in female form. She's like big name God, the God that talks to Jesus when straight up God. Yeah, straight up God straight up God, though notably she was always remained more background than Applewhite during public teachings. That's why most people don't know of her.

She's purely known within the internal structure of the group. The elevation of their status served to reinforce why the students should give them total allegiance betraying them was tantamount to betraying God's plan. Throughout these years, only scant glimpses of Heaven's Gate reached the outside world. Occasionally, a new exited member or an investigator would share a snippet of information. In 1982, psychologist Robert Balk and David Taylor, who had infiltrated the group back in 1975 in a very Jesse like fashion,

as we were talking about earlier, or Alex like fashion rather with Scientology. They published a study noting how the group had evolved into a closed, tightly regulated cell. They observed the individual autonomy among members had been virtually eliminated in favor of what they termed institutionalized or rolelessness. And in other words, basically apart from the T and O, no one had a personal authority or identity. Everyone's role was simply to obey and learn. And such observations, however,

remained in academic journals and never penetrated mainstream awareness much, like at all, this during the 16 years. Family network groups like the Cult Awareness Network had lists of Heaven's Gate members and worried relatives But since the group wasn't committing crimes or attracting new converts law enforcement and media largely lost track of them after the late 1970s Yes, just so you know I mean It's interesting to see the way this works compared to so I know last episode

I mentioned yo, I should really do a thing about Waco Immediately afterwards started working on it and uh, yeah and you're gonna see a lot of similarities similarities out the wazoo it's crazy yeah yeah and for the for the cult this lack of outside interference probably helped them survive honestly as well to like keep going for as long as they did in their sheltered bubble the doctrines could intensify without any challenge from the external world. But the crisis of faith would eventually have to come. And in June of 1985, tragedy struck the groups in her circle as Bonnie Lou Nettles died of cancer at the age of 57. Insane. Yeah. Yeah. this was the turning point. She passed away in a Dallas hospital, Parkland Memorial, under an assumed name at the time, with Applewhite and a few members at her side.

And her death was a devastating blow emotionally and theologically for the cult. For 13 years she had been with Applewhite, the co-anchor of the movement, the co-author of the doctrine. To the followers, she was not supposed to die. How is an enlightened extraterrestrial master, the embodiment of the Heavenly Father here on Earth, destined for glorious transformation and supposed to bring us as a group into this UFO, succumb to fucking cancer? This soul then punched a gaping hole in one of the cults core teachings

The belief that the elect would be physically transformed and taken to the next level without experiencing Ordinary death and ordinary is important because getting shot by cops doesn't count that would also have that would also work as one analyst I found put it. She, uh, her, the, her dying shook the group's belief system to its very core. Since members had confidently expected to attain perfection while she was still alive and they believed her prayers, their prayers for her should have worked. And Apple white's immediate challenge was to prevent her death from shattering the class's faith because twofold.

This is his only, this is all he has left. It's also, I think he still believed to a degree. His response also was twofold, doctrinal reframing and emotional shepherding. He gathered the group now only a few dozen members and conveyed that Bonnie had completed her task on this plane and actually returned to the next level ahead of them. She just was like a scout. She's like, you know what?

You don't need me anymore. I'm going to go ahead and go ahead and I'll welcome you on the other side. He explained that our human body had simply just worn out. The vehicle she had was old and couldn't sustain the next evolutionary change. Applewhite asserted. And then he said that her spirit had exited and traveled to a waiting spacecraft where she received a perfect body. So she died in the like getting transported on Star Trek.

She got brought up and then her soul was put into a perfect body that was waiting for her. This set a new precedent. A faithful member could leave their physical container behind and still graduate to the next level. In effect, it was the beginning of the major doctrinal pivot that would allow for the belief that everyone is good. I see. Yep. What had been unthinkable a class member dying, especially the teacher was now They had to they had to commit to it. Yeah, they had no choice She was now recast as part of the divine plan all along This was a demonstration for the rest that the soul was what mattered not the flesh

Her dying was simply her showing him. Interesting. This is so, I, man, I'm, I love good, like religious study because it's super interesting to see how over time things change. Because in this case, right, they said, you know, your body is this weak thing and really the soul is what matters. And you're going to, you can get a new body. I body everything's gonna be amazing and the implication that they eventually get to is we should kill ourselves by killing ourselves we can go there it's interesting that a lot of other religions they're part of this which is like your body your flesh is nothing we're spiritual beings when you die you get something better the stipulation is but if you kill yourself you go to hell things like that so you can't do that don is, but if you kill yourself, you go to hell, things like that. So you can't do that. Don't do that. Don't kill yourself. We need you alive.

But also you don't want to like life is stupid. You really, the next thing's more important, which is a fascinating look because they didn't have that. There's nothing stopping them. They're literally the outcome of, well, if you want to go to heaven so bad, why not just kill yourself? Yes, that's exactly what they become. That's crazy. They ha and he doubles and triples and quadruples down until he just has to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think he wanted to die. I think he wanted to kill himself. I think Apple white was done this. I think Bonnie dying he was out. Um, yeah. Cause from this point on the group increasingly taught that they might have to quote unquote

shed their human bodies to accomplish their journey. There was still the problem though of reconciling this with scripture and early promises. Both Applewhite and Nidals had once compared themselves to the two witnesses in Revelation who would be killed and resurrected publicly. Now one of them had died without a public resurrection. Applewhite adjusted the narrative here. Perhaps the prophecy had been fulfilled in a way not initially understood. That her resurrection wasn't a physical one, but it was a spiritual one, invisible to those

not in the know. He stopped speaking of any future public martyrdom for himself. Instead, he began emphasizing that the second coming was happening in secret, and they as a group were playing it out behind the scenes. He even suggested that Bonnie's departure was a final test for the class to see if they could continue in the truth without their feminine older member member physically being present He just spun it he spun it spun it and here is where I see oh

There is a little bit of a cult leader in there a little bit of a manipulator who's not as Not as stupid as he seems or just because we don't see creativity Not as stupid as he seems or just because we don't see creativity. He is very good at emotional manipulation and spinning something to not be as bad as it is. And I had this internal debate. I don't know if that's a trauma response from him because of his life and in trying to create a world that he has control over and he is accepted and like feel safe or if he's doing it because he's like, I can't lose my group of people that I have power over. I think it's the former.

I I've gone back and forth, but everything I've read about this guy speaks to a traumatized individual who met somebody who was also not in their right mind creating these delusions that he I I think, did believe to some degree. But watching this him spin it, I'm like, you just see it. I was like, okay, there is that little nefarious little like, he can spin things if he needs to. The question is, do you think he believed it or not?

Is he believing his own spin? Or do you think at this point, he's now just trying to like, band-aid it? I think that's a question that all people ask of all of these figures. Like, do they truly believe in their weird cult thing they're doing? Or are they scamming? And I always come back to the idea of, at a certain point, even if you are scammingming and you are like, you know that what you believe is not true, you're just messing with people at a certain point, the idea, the concept of the cult becomes its own thing worth saving. And you believe in the cult, even if you don't believe in what the cult stands for, you believe in the concept of it. And that becomes your overriding.

Like everything you do is to keep it going because that is your life. If you've had it since the seventies and now it's the nineties or whatever, it's you it's 20 years of your life. You're like, it's just same thing as being in a relationship that sucks. Yes. Yes. It's, you're like, I know this is bad and I know I should leave, but I have so much time and energy and this is my relationship. I am a part of this. And the cult built codependency by design.

And but he's codependent on the con them. Yeah, correct. And like letting any of that go, like we've said so many times in this in this show, whether it be cults, serial killers, aliens, you whatever it is, like, once you realize, like realizing you're wrong, and then admitting you're wrong, is akin to dying in a lot of ways, like, because the life in the world that you believe to be reality, it's just to be the definitions and all that terminology you lose, you use all that work you put in is

meaningless. All these people around you are in a real relationship with the real you. You're all bonded via identifying with your leader and trying to be like your leader. And you don't know any of these people and nobody knows you. Because you've been a character the entire time. Wow, that's like that Jim Carrey quote.

Yeah, you've just been pretending to be a character. And so what's easier to bolt another rivet onto the mask or to pry each bolt off in bleeding agony and walk away with nothing. Like, that's what happens when you go so deep. And we watch it today. politics and anything like religion in college, like in dating everywhere, or just in getting dating in relationships and dealing with yourself and looking back at your past and realizing like, what you who you are and like a lot of your behaviors are?

behaviors based on what you think society wants of you and like everybody wears a mask right ladies of the Jim Carrey quo everybody wears A mask but in this particular instance this mask was very particularly fucking dangerous like most cults are and Honestly as when Bonnie died, it left Applewhite emotionally unmoored by all accounts from those that we heard from within the cult. He was deeply, deeply grief stricken. The two had been virtually inseparable partners for over a decade, spending every day together since they met with Bonnie, often the more pragmatic and nurturing of the two of them.

And now suddenly Applewhite found himself as the sole leader. Former members actually later recounted that he was visibly wrestling with depression after in 1985, he told the group that he felt Bonnie's presence guiding him internally, but privately people say he was anxious about living up to her legacy. In the months immediately following, he doubled down on the structure that Bonnie had helped build. The group remained in their Dallas house

for a short period of mourning. They did not attend any funeral. Bonnie's family held a quiet burial back in her hometown, and that's it. And then to keep everyone, so another reason that you never heard of her, because they were, she was just never brought up. And then to keep everyone so another reason that you never heard of her because they were she just never brought up And then to keep everyone focused Apple white uprooted the class on a new series of moves

It was time to fucking make their lives unstable and more dependent on him again So they traveled to the desert southwest Eventually relocating to a property in southern New Mexico by the late 1980s Which was a 40 acre plot near the Manzano mountains where they could live even more isolated from civilization. And this relocation also symbolized moving forward. Dallas held the memory of Bonnie's illness, whereas New Mexico earthship compound represented a project for the future.

So they called it there. The compound was earthship because again, not creative. And they began constructing a bunker like home there. Now doctrinally in the post 1985 era, we saw Heaven's Gate turn further toward otherworldly hope and a creeping sense of apocalyptic finality. Applewhite's teachings took on a more urgent, at times, darker tone. He began speaking of the corrupt earth and the likelihood that this planet would be spaded under, wiped clean, as a failed experiment. And that while Bonnie is gone, Applewhite

also had to reinterpret their cosmology. And that was her gig. That was her whole thing. The cosmology, the theosophy. Now he had to do it. So we elevated Bonnie in their cosmology, describing her as having assumed a high station in the next level, overseeing the remainder of their mission. And the group likely derived comfort from imagining Bonnie awaiting them in the spacecraft because it allows them to push the grief to a side. She's not dead. And she's not dead.

Yeah, literally. Yeah. She's just she'd been bought been a moderating force described as the gentler mom figure who could temper will call it Applewhite's intensity. But now, to white ruled alone. You remember the video you watched last week? And I said, Yeah, no, I got I got the rules got even more explicit. A lengthy list of dues's and don'ts was compiled, enumerating offenses from major like sexual thoughts

to minor like improper cleaning and their consequences. Daily life was routin- or routinized. And, but Applewhite introduced new elements. For example, uniform check-ins, where members would line up for inspection to ensure everyone's attire was identical and proper or extended meditation sessions where he played recorded soothing sounds to help members visualize connecting with Bonnie's mind. All of this would help

fill the void of Bonnie's absence by making sure she never really left. It's like forcing your ant farm to like grieve for you. Yeah it's like fucked up. It's like getting your Pikmin. It's like getting your Pikmin to grieve for you. This, it's like fucked up. It's like getting your pigmen. It's like getting your pigmen to grieve for you. This is why I say I think it's a trauma bonding thing for him. Like this is him just trying to express his own emotions in a world where he never could through the cult that he turned into little mini hymns basically. And so and some longtime members struggled during this transition. A few even left in the late 80s unable to reconcile Bonnie's death with what they'd

been promised. But most stayed, and those that did were more devoted than ever, and they rationalized that Bonnie's work on Earth was simply done and that they must redouble their efforts to be worthy of joining her. In group statements after 1985, you can kind of detect a notable shift, way more emphasis on the immortality of the soul and the possibility of one's human body that might be relinquished, like shedding an outgrown suit of clothes in one of the things he wrote down. In essence, the cult began quietly preparing its followers for the idea of leaving their

bodies, as I said earlier, to be both acceptable, but also probably necessary for the ultimate graduation. Now, from the book, author, probably necessary, probably not fully because you leave that hope you might not have to because some people might be a little squeamish the idea of having to die. But yeah, Benjamin Zeller, the author of one of the main book I'm using kind of just like looked at Bonnie's death and honestly quote from his book said, a new idea emerged from this members would have to shed their imperfect human bodies at which point the consciousness would transfer to a next level alien body and once accepted, the members no longer felt any physical concern with death. If they could buy into it, what is the body other than just an object?

If you are truly just like you're using the body as a ship, who fucking cares? And the language of exit started to replace the language of transformation, control F transformation, replace exit. Interestingly, even as this extreme doctrine kind of incubated internally, the group's outward profile continued remaining minimal even after her death. Publicly, Heaven's Gate was all but forgotten. Only a small circle of ex-members, researchers, and investigators knew that they were still

active. The remaining members lived quietly and kept refining their spiritual practices, awaiting for a sign for when to act on their beliefs. Now, in the years immediately following Bonnie's death, Applewhite, now solely known as Doe, completely and utterly from this point on to them, he gradually introduced the notion that there is a tool. I know it's stupid, miserable story. No, not even that it's stupid.

It's just like, yeah, it's like eternally linking him to a dead person. Like, it's just because he can't he can't let go. Yeah. Yeah. He gradually introduced the notion that their eventual departure him to a dead person. Like it's just, yeah, he can't, he can't let go. Yeah. Yeah. He gradually introduced the notion that their eventual departure from earth might not occur by flying saucer pickup either in the way that they once envisioned. While he didn't explicitly yet advocate suicide, he did kind of begin dropping hints that the shell of

the human body was not only just a shell or a vessel, it was actually just inconsequential. It was meaningless and might be left behind by force if necessary. And by the early 90s, this line of thought became more explicit and was even cautiously shared outside of the group. Applewhite began started using the term exit describe what is about what is going to eventually lie ahead for these people now in 1993 1994 heavens gate briefly resurfaced to public view by placing ads and holding meetings and in those outreach efforts applewhite subtly prepared newcomers for a drastic possibility this is where he warned that the planet was on the verge of being recycled. The video I played for you last week was actually from this era of Applewhite, the post Bonnie

death, the post depression nineties are broken, naked venom snake era. Exactly. Uh, and that the window to ascend was actually closing rapidly. And in late 1995, Apple White issued statements on the internet effective effectively open letters to the world not only outlining the group's belief and their readiness to leave but this is where I say he was basically for about three years openly telling the world we're gonna kill ourselves it's gonna happen in one 1995 online missive noted an exit statement, he wrote that it was time to lay down the

bodies that tied them to this world and that this would not be suicide, but a transcendent escape from the doomed earth destined to be recycled. He emphasized as they would to the end that the true meaning of suicide is to turn against the next level when it is being offered that Suicide not killing yourself because then you're stuck here and again he twists it again And in other words, they basically say not leaving earth when the door was open to do So would be the real way of killing yourself You don't want to do that

Do you and these were some of the first public suggestions that Heaven's Gate was contemplating a voluntary exit from their vehicles. The origin of this idea can be traced back directly to the aftermath of Bonnie's death a decade prior. It was then that Applewhite first had to consider that physical death might be part of this divine plan all along, and he reformulated the theology to accommodate that grim prospect. Over the 80s and early 90s, he nurtured the concept within the group, ensuring that by the time it was spoken of openly in this time in the 90s, his students had already internalized it as a logical extension of their 20-year spiritual odyssey that they had experienced at this point.

So if anybody even tried to talk to them, there was going to be no getting through to them. And by the late 1980s, hints of what was to come were present even if few outsiders noticed. The group's lore held that when the time came, they would board the next available spacecraft of the Kingdom of Heaven. As the 90s dawned with no spaceship in sight, he and his class interpreted that time might come in the form of a self-initiated exit, the final exam of their faith. And still, it's important to underscore that until the mid 90s, Heaven's Gate members spoke

of making spoke about making a physical exit in this level and somewhat veiled terms within the group. However, the idea of noble collectively chosen death had been normalized gradually that even taken extreme measures in physical self denial. It's fucking crazy, dude. That sucks. Such as, as I mentioned at the beginning of Episode one and here, surgical castration of a few of the male members, including Applewhite himself. And around 1995, as a last step to eliminate worldly sexuality,

that act was a profound demonstration of detachment from the human body and a stepping stone toward the ultimate detachment. And as 1995 arrived, Applewhite found that he believed what he believed was the cosmic sign he'd been waiting for. He discovered, or the discovery of rather, the Hail Bop Comet. And by 1996, he publicly declared that the Earth's about to be recycled, your only chance to survive is to leave with us, which is the snippet from the video I played you.

And Heaven's Gate members, having spent roughly 20 years under these guys' tutelage, were very ready to follow Applewhite anywhere, even to death. In their minds, this was not an end, but this was the graduation, the final liberation from the human condition that they had sacrificed literally everything for. And that is where we're going to pick up next week for the final piece of this story. It's absolutely insane. Three years is suicide and the coverage of it all and how their website is still active today to this day with active members watching it. is suicide and the coverage of it all and how their website is still active today.

To this day with active members watching it. I got to say you did a good job of like really getting the mindset across to me in a way. Yeah. I'm glad good because that's it's I just think it's like the most important part, especially of this cult, the way how it's so deeply ingrained in their every move. It's fucking nuts, dude. That's absolutely insane.

They wiped out their identity. Yeah, well, we're gonna hear next week, we'll hear a few more clips from a couple of interviews of not just Applewhite, but a few of the members and their goodbye tapes and like how they sounded in them and whatnot. And really like, again, Bonnie to me is what led to this directly.

The death, the suicide of the cult, I do not believe would have happened. If it did, it would have been a long time from now, but it wouldn't have happened if she didn't get cancer. Crazy. Thank you boys for listening. Thank you all for listening. You can head over to patreon.com

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I hear my wife go, holy shit, get out here. So I quickly dash back outside. She's looking up at the sky and I look up to and there's a perfect line of dozen lights traveling across the sky. So Thanks for watching! you