Chilluminati Podcast - Episode 298: Folk Magic Part I - Are You Folkin' Serious?

Episode Date: May 11, 2025

Our deep dive in the Folk Magic officially begins! Alex, Mike and Jesse begin to ask, what is Folk Magic and is it sexy? MOFFMIN PLUSH MERCH - http://www.theyetee.com/collections/chilluminati Thank you to - All you lovely people at Patreon! HTTP://PATREON.COM/CHILLUMINATIPOD HelloFresh - Go to HelloFresh dot com slash chill10fm now to get 10 Free Meals with a Free Item For Life. ZocDoc - http://www.zocdoc.com/chill Promocode CHILL Jesse Cox - http://www.youtube.com/jessecox Alex Faciane - http://www.youtube.com/user/superbeardbros Editor - DeanCutty http://www.twitter.com/deancutty Show art by - https://twitter.com/JetpackBraggin http://www.instagram.com/studio_melectro

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Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Chuluminati podcast, episode 298. As always, I'm one of your host, Mike Martin, today, joined by the comedy duo known as Danu-U-San. What? Dan-U-San? What happened? Why are you saying it like that? Because I don't know how you say it. Why is it?

Why are you trailing it off like you like? They're comprised of the members Daniel Cherkopp and Cresander Agius. That's the Danu Son of it all. I see it. Yeah. Are they good? Yeah, they broke up four weeks ago. They broke up.

They're a comedy duo in Malta with a YouTube page. With a 25 year history. Four weeks ago, they separated. What? Are they hot? Yeah. Are they hot? I don't know.

I guess so. They're bald. They have a Danuson channel. Yeah. I think. Yeah, they do. And I'm Instagram. But they do.

They're from Malta. So are you Danu or are you son? I'm not sure. Because they both look roughly the same. They look roughly the same. They're both two bald guys who look. Yeah, they look pretty much this. I don't think it matters, to be honest.

Who wears the black hoodie? Who wears the white hoodie? That's really the different. I'm looking at all their videos. I don't think they have, like, in one video, they're wearing red, both wearing red sweater vests. And one they're wearing both blue vests. And one they're wearing both green vests with black shirt underneath it.

We look basically the same. Yeah. I mean, this might be the most accurate. Superficially, you and I look basically, ever since I started having to wear glasses more, like, it's just too hard to, like, it really, like, did something to the, like, similarity between us that I'm a little bit.

We have become the generic three white dudes host a podcast. The dad from Inside Out, the guy from Toy Story. Yeah, the only thing is if Alex were to go back to having a mustache. Oh, God, yeah. And then we would be those guys. I feel like if I do that at this point, though, like it was fun when I was 27. now I'm just like Ron Jeremy.

Yeah, now it's a little, yeah, a little creepy. Yeah. Now I'm just that, cut off. Yeah, now I'm just Ron Jeremy with that,

with the like straggly strands of hair. Or you could Ted Lasso it. And that way, and that could be good. Okay. You know, like go like like, like,

like, like, yeah, like a little Ned Flanders vibe. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's,

that's, that's, it's dangerously close to a lot of other bad mustaches, but I'll go for it. Unfortunately, that is forever going to be the case. Yeah, Walt Disney. Can you imagine?

Just kidding. That's right. Hello again, everyone. It is time once again to put on your imagination caps. And I would also recommend your patience galoshes and your good sport bow ties. I'm not sure if any of those are really things. But I don't even think I have. Just if you have them.

I feel like right now the picture of my head is like you're approaching the water very slowly and scared like cautiously. You seem very nervous about things right now. I just, I'm trying to broker peace. I just, if you have the galoshes, if you have that can't be good. If you have your patience galoshes and you have your good sport and bodice, just put it on, do it anyway. I've put together a real humdinger of a two-parter for you guys here. And things are predictably going to get fairly wacky for the next couple hours, weeks,

whatever. Yeah, we're doing the topic I thought we were doing. I prepared for this episode. Before I get into any of that, though, I want to take care of a few pieces of business. First, it was recently Mathis' birthday. Happy birthday. Thank you. Yeah, so here on the show, I wanted to use what good faith I have left with you.

To get as many nudes as we can. Before I squander it, by doing another weird episode, I just want to wish my happy boy, a happy birthday in earnest. Thank you very much. I know I do a lot of weird things, but for once, I am not pretending that I forgot about something just to pay it off several years later. Send your sexy alien fan art to... Yeah, I'll think that.

sexy alien fan art. However, speaking of things that I think, like, that you think I forgot to pay off, here is the same... I didn't think you forgot anything, dude. Oh, yeah? Like, here's the same birthday present from last year. It's a nice UFO guitar strap that I got from Mathis last year, which I somehow forgot to give him

when he was literally here in town for my wedding. Except now it also comes with a nice steak dinner. Hell yeah. It has matured over the year. I can't wait to get together with you all. It's collectible the very next time. in Los Angeles and for me and the whole production team and all the listeners. And I don't want to speak for him because we did not rehearse this beforehand, but probably

even Jesse. Happy fucking birthday, my son. Thank you, man. Appreciate it very much. Another year on this earth continues. I have an average birthday. Yeah. You know, see, I don't want to speak for him, but I, you know.

Yeah, I don't want to say happy, but like it can have a birthday. Continue to be a lot. Contented birthday. Thank you very much. That's good. Thank you. A pleasure to be alive still. Yeah.

Now, for this next piece of business, instead of promoting our incredible Patreon, which you can find at patreon.com slash Tulumati Pod, by the way, I have written a skit that's easy to cut out of the episode and use as three tidy little commercials on socials for the next few weeks. For the next new thing I'm about to announce, which is kind of fun and exciting. So here you go, boys. Your motivation is that your two late night security guards on camera duty at a top secret facility somewhere. and I had to do this in two parts because it was kind of long. But remember, this skit is actually three ads. So just forget the parts that say where the ads start and just read it straight through like a script. It's a little sketch.

Are the ads staying in the main episode? Yeah, this is a skit for right now. And then also, now I was kissing your butt. Now I get it. Now I get it. Cleverly, I have now killed two birds with one stone, one green stone. Shut up. So cool.

All right. Add starto. So anyway, I tell's my wife, listen, babe, it's not called the flat bush monster. It's called the flat woods monster. And frankly, this obsession with bush, this bush, and that is starting to make me feel kind of weird. Like first bushquatch and now this, I'm pretty sure she made them both up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean.

What? I said, yeah, I know what you mean. What? What? How? You're not married? Yeah, yeah, but I wish I was. What the...

Hey, wait a minute. Wait, wait a minute. Pause a live transmission. Run camera six back. About eight seconds. Huh? Not another perimeter breach. That's the second one this year.

Well, look, let's just double confirm. Enhance. Enhance. No, enhance again. Enhance. Wait, are you talking to me? Yes. Enhance.

Oh, shit. Uh, yeah, okay. Uh, suspect seems like a six foot, one male, shaggy, slightly overweight build. But I gotta say, his shirt looks really cool. Oh, what? Show me. Here you go. Kind of edgy, kind of trippy.

It's a good look. L.O.L, dude. No worries. False alarm. That's one of our dudes. Is it? What kind of look? is that? Why is it

so styling? Look at the sweet sleeve art too. Awesome. Yeah, that's our new standard issue casual wear. Oh, what? Really? You mean I missed my free one? Yeah, don't worry, though. It's permanently available

now in the company store at the Yeti.com slash Chaluminati in all kinds of sizes. Okay, okay. You know what? I just might. Nice. All right. Add two. Sweet. Man, you know, I'm actually kind of relieved because, wait, no, there's more. I see it. Oh, wait, is this the same guys? I think he's the same guy. All right. I didn't know if these are different guys. If you don't want to commit to that voice, if you don't want to commit to that voice, if you don't want to commit to that voice anymore, I forget.

Wait, no. There's more. I see another guy out there in the train. Oh, fucking perfect. Really? Yeah, I can just barely make it out. Actually, it kind of looks like... Bigfoot? No, no, really? Bigfoot 2's out again? All right, but you have to dart him because this time I'm the one who gets to shave him.

What? No, dude! What? What? I mean, on the dude's shirt, it's Bigfoot, look! Oh, dude, you got me all excited. That's our new limited edition shirt featuring that sweet Bigfoot. design from Studio Mlectro. Oh, wow. You mean the official artist of the Chaluminati podcast?

I love that design. What a cool shirt. Yeah, I know, but if you want the one, you got to hurry because this one's only on sale until June 8th. Then it goes right back into the vault. Wait, but I thought nobody was allowed in the vault. They're not. It's just an expression.

Oh. Just go buy the shirt, the eddy.com slash Chuluminati. Hurry. Nice. A solid, solid ad. All right. At three. Start.

Man, now I'm browsing the Chaluminaughty team store instead of watching all these important security cameras. I can't have another mistake on my record after last time. I don't worry about it. I'm sure Mothman 2 will be back. I'll watch while you shop. Don't want you to miss the deal. Deal? What deal?

Well, you know those two new shirts? The really. really sexy ones? Yeah. Well, if you buy either one, any of the older stuff in the store becomes 30% off. What? Even the Flatbush Monster poster? Even that one, but actually it's Flatwoods monster. Damn it, she got me again. I'm telling you, she's infecting my mind with Bush. Whatever. Just head over to the Yeti.com slash Chulimiddi right now for our spring cleaning deal and get any older stuff in the shop for 30% off when you buy either the new Chiluminae logo shirt or the limited edition Bigfoot shirt from Studio Melectro available till June 8th.

The ytti.com slash Jolumani. It's where you buy stuff. Dude. Who are you talking to? And seen. Excellent job, guys. And yes, listeners, these new shirts are real. The sale is real.

The links are live now. And maybe we'll see more of Bob and Dave, our two guard characters in the future. But anyway, back to the episode. As you know, I write my episodes based on agency approved, pre-curated packets of information provided to me via a pneumatic tube in my office that leads there from Chulminati HQ. You really love the idea of pneumatic tubes now, though you. Ever since I played the game karma very recently, I have always had a pneumatic tube in my office. And sometimes, along with the info packet, there will be some kind of little note from them about the last episode I did. Right. So this time I got a note expressing some disapproval over the way I handled the Jack

the Ripper episode last time. According to them, they love Mark Meir. Apparently, Mass Effect is a big game for members of the Chulamati Inner Circle. I don't know. I guess a lot of them are millennials. They really liked it. But they thought I got to quote, openly metatextual with my script. And they also asserted that, quote, any discussion about the boundaries between facts, fiction and perception should only occur to blur them even further or to quote, indoctrinate children to prevent recontextualization from low value media

such as portrait mode, conspiracy shorts, and podcasts similar to our own but made in complete earnest. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't really get it. I don't really get what they're talking about. I don't know.

I don't know what the hell they're talking about. I just don't agree with them. I just feel like we're kind of at odds sometimes. So to offset that, I guess. They requested that I based the, next podcast as closely as possible off the quote pre-existing agency literature found in the attached packet which as you probably guessed by now when I opened it included yet another issue of the official magazine of the 1987 Chalumani kids course summer investigation course

at Angeles National Forest Chaluminaut's magazine. I've already got it set up here just off it's just off camera on my museum quality magazine reading device that I have on loan from the Vedican archives. Technically, I was supposed to give it back like two weeks ago, but it feels weird to bother them right now. Yeah. I don't know. When the American vice president murders the Pope,

I don't want to give it all the time. So I'm going to keep it a few more weeks. And if you're wondering why you can't see me turning the pages, it's because they do it automatically based on my eye movements. It just tracks my eye movements and turns of pages. So that's the end of this technology being hidden away from the civilians nowadays. Yeah. That's the end of this conceit.

We're all good. Anyway, the note with this one. says it comes from a kid called Katie and it seems to be the August 1987 issue which is called the Chaluminati Guide to Magic in America Part 1, the history of magic. Yeah.

Which I think kind of looks extra cool with the retro 80 styling that it has. I know you guys can't see it but you just have to imagine. Just give me a second. I'll remote view into your room and I'll take a look. Yeah, it's pretty cool because it has magic with a K you know, so it looks kind of cool with the occult look. I don't know.

It rules. Remarkably well preserved too. Yeah, it really is nice. And basically that's what this episode is going to be about. But also I went back myself, sort of filled out the info with more modern sources. So shoutouts to Folklife magazine. Shoutouts to Learn Religions.com. The YouTube channel, esoterica, which if you guys have not been to that YouTube channel,

you should go to it. It's very fucking cool. Newworldwituary.com, which also has a great podcast and a set of excellent books associated with it, which will include links for in the show notes. But for this episode, this duo of episodes, I mostly referred to their three-part article on Appalachian Mountain Magic, which is freely available on their website. And I will also link that.

And then also I use Wikipedia a lot, which is rapidly. Dude, I don't know what that is. But I also don't want to know what that is. No, I'm just kidding. People who live in like the Appalachian Mountains and like the shit that like the rules you're supposed to follow. Don't go in the woods if somebody calls your name, yada, yada, yada. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. activity out there. Yeah, yeah. I didn't, okay, Appalachian particular. I didn't know that's what we're focusing. Yeah, well, we're going to get there eventually. Today, it's a little bit broader, but that's what we're going to land. And also, I want to say that this

is but the first little two-parter that we were doing about magic, or loosely themed around magic. Me and Mathis have been kind of like talking about this a little bit. There's going to be a few other, like, occult, adjacent things happening that also have to do

with magic with a K, sort of. Is this? This. Are we about to enter Hot Goblin summer? Is that what's happening right now? Hot Goblin summer is every summer for me. I don't have a choice. That's the only kind of summer I can ever have.

Yeah. We're getting wild right now? I think the series Alex is about to do and then the one I'm going to do shortly thereafter are both very foundationally necessary before we walk into giant topics like Madame Blavatsky, Alistair Crowley, and all these other characters that I am very eager to cover in depth. But without an understanding of what. we're going to talk about here. A lot of the stuff that we will cover there wouldn't make any sense. And though we are going to touch a little bit on specific cultural traditions as an example

today, this is a children's magazine from the 80s. Okay. So, 80s were a different time. This is simple. This is for a young mind to absorb. This is not a complex, in-depth thing. This is not like experts. This is introduction to the concept of magic in general. And if you feel particularly excited by any particular aspect of this or, you know, just the topic in general, or you feel like I didn't go far enough at anything, let us know in the comments somewhere, and we

will use it to plan the next episode, because I am definitely not done talking about this, not by a long shot, but we have to come at this from a very, very wide angle first, so that's what we're going to do today. I did some preparation for today's episode, Alex. I did some reading, but more in particular,

I did mushrooms to prepare for the magic episode. Are you doing, wait, are you saying you're on mushrooms right now? No. Oh, God, no. I would know. I was on them right now. I'd be like excited for this episode.

I was like, hold up. I would be like, wow, that is bold. Yeah. If I was able to be this coherent on mushrooms, no. I did it for my birthday, but in particular, because magic episode was coming up. I feel like it's 50-50 for you. I feel like you could see you do it. Matt, mushrooms are wild in that like you go in with intent, but really, you don't really.

have much control over like what is going to pop up in terms of like thought. Oh yeah. With like the idea of like, you know, just the idea of like reality because we're going to folk magic and then the other kind of stuff that we're going to cover later, the idea of reality being kind of fuzzy and like malleable in its own way was kind of look at what I went into it with. By the end of like the four hours, I was annoyed with the fucking, I would call it a voice in my head, but it didn't feel like a voice in my head.

But it was a taunting, but not in like a mean way. Like, why aren't you laughing with me? The typical message of like, the cosmic joke is so funny. All you stupid idiots are trying to be permanent and you aren't. You're all temporary. That's so fucking funny. Why aren't you laughing with me? And that was like...

You became like the Shroom Joker? Yeah, but yeah, I guess. It was just like a feel like that. And I kept, and I was just like, it didn't bother me. It didn't send me into existentialists because I've already like very much thought about that in my life many a time. And I was just actively being like, could you just, okay, I get it. Can we move on, please?

And no, that was like for two. Like the last two hours of the trip, there was just that thought of like, this is so funny. It's so funny. All you people just try to keep trying to make yourselves permanent no matter. Was it like a, was it like positive? It wanted, it felt like it, whatever it was. I'm not trying to separate this as like a mythical entity, just like how the emotion felt. It felt like it wanted me to laugh along with it, like to enjoy the joke with it.

And I'm like, yeah, no, but I get it. I'm annoyed. Can we please? I want to like think, I want to explore other fucking things. And that was like it. And that was it. And I had a few moments where it felt like I, like was desinking when I was trying to like close my eyes and meditate.

I started by meditating, which then led to like going into this weird thought process. It was very, very fascinating. Nothing magic happened, but God, the fucking, it was really annoying. I'm just going to say that. Whatever it was was really annoying because it just wouldn't leave me alone. That is so not how I ever would expect a shroom trip to go in any way. No, and then I fell into a quantum mechanics hole and learned about decoherence. Oh my God.

What is going on over? He's, he's, everybody's wizardizing in their own ways right now. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We have to immerse ourselves in the black arts

in order to protect ourselves from the forces that are at our doors. So you're saying reject modernity embrace wizardry. Is that what you're, reject, um, Super Mario mushrooms and eat magic mushrooms. Which might be the Mario mushrooms.

Let's be clear. Well, actually, you know what? Super Mario Wonder. is like pretty drug-coded if you haven't played it. Oh, it very much is actually now that you mentioned it. Anyway, back to this fucking episode.

This frivolous backstory that I am painting for you guys does have one more wrinkle to it that we have not gotten into yet. But before we get into that, let's have Jesse start us up by reading the intro to the main article in the magazine, which only has a byline of staff just like the rest of the magazine, which may be a wizard pun, but I don't think it is. So here we go. A little quote for Jesse here. Hey, Katie.

Thank you for subscribing to the... the Chulomani Kids' core summer investigation course at Angeles National Forest. Before we unshackle your mind from this realm of constants and absolutes and set you free into a quantum metaphorical campground of the spirit for a weekend of flying across the astral plane, divining notions of order from universal chaos, and the optional Angeles National Force spot a buzzard, edutainment action hike, we want to introduce you to what we believe to be the core concept of magic with a K through something you may already be familiar with.

Hey, Katie, growing up like you did around Burbank, California, have you ever heard of a horoscope? The word horoscope comes from Greek words referring to observing the time of one's birth, or really any event, and any other cosmically significant event. that may coincide with it in some way. In most cultures, this involves the notion, the notion of the motion, involves the motions of heavenly bodies and some sort of pre-existing culture structure of symbols and meanings.

It doesn't quite qualify as magic with a K, in the way we plan on describing it later, but as you read your weekly horoscope below, for the purposes of your possible future within the Jolum, consider how much of the way it does or doesn't relate to your own life has to do with what's written on the page and how much is your brain making connections because it knows it's supposed to be about you already. Makes perfect sense. And obviously, instead of reading Katie's horoscope, which helps nobody nearly 40 years later, I'm going to let you boys get your hands dirty by reading your 2025 for this actual week. from l.com and then we'll see how well it relates to your life and what you in what you out there may not know is that and please correct me if i'm wrong that you are both toruses correct right yep okay factually correct factually actually correct so i'm gonna read very little about this like

kind of thing that's like tower reading astrology and all that stuff i don't know sure i love them i get sucked it in i don't believe it but i like how it's so vaguely accurate i'm like that that is I'm more excited about how they managed to walk a fine line between total bullshit and somehow making you feel like, oh my God, they nailed me. It's mentally. Yeah. And what you may. So if you'll just let me read the whole thing, like before you guys react to what I say, because I don't want you guys to like affect each other's interpretations. Sure.

Yeah. But as I read it, I want to see how differently the same info can apply. You know? So like, yeah. Try and come up with your reaction, like, independent, and then we'll, like, go into them. And, uh, you know, even though you guys are like very like long time, like you guys know each other, you guys have the same job kind of like we work in the same field. You know each other personally for a long time.

We're going to see how, uh, you know, the same thing can work for two different people. And then we'll read mine. So I also, I will state for the record, having friends who are super into horoscopes, um, they will tell you that you. you could say, oh, this is a Taurus horoscope, but if you don't do like, what was your moon and sun and this and that, it's not really accurate,

which is a whole other layer, which I don't expect Alex to actually do because he'd have to know the minute we were born, but still, right, right, exactly. That's just putting it out there for people who are like, well, actually, horoscopes. My brother's heavily into, like, not,

like, very similar to Alex, where like, he doesn't necessarily believe, but he loves, like, the idea of it. And he, like, he looked up, like, the moon where it was and the sun for my birth and also for his. And it's, it's what I found fascinating

is because we are diamet, like complete opposites of each other. And all the signs and everything for both our bursts were completely opposites of each other.

Which I was like, yeah, that's really interesting. Depending on your level of literacy with this stuff, right? Like there's going to be some stuff I say right now, even from the L.com one,

which you probably won't understand. And that's okay. It's more important that it's there than that you understand it. And don't worry about it because you just need, to let it exist as you think about it, let go of it, move past it, see what you can get out of the reading anyway so that our intent stays pure and in the moment, right? That's what we got

to do. So here we go. Bango, bango. There's power and subtlety this week, Taurus, something your composed sign innately understands. And with your ruler, sophisticated and seductive Venus moving through your reflective 12th house, you're operating with more intuition than usual. But that doesn't mean you've checked out. Thanks to a supportive sex style to Venus from deep diving Pluto in your 10th House of Legacy and Leadership, your quieter moves could have had a major professional impact this Tuesday, May 6th. Conversations behind closed doors, whispered ideas, or a private realization about your purpose could shift the way you show up publicly.

Don't rust to broadcast every insight. Much of your leverage will come from what you choose to withhold. This is also a moment to rewrite outdated goals or shed public personas that no longer align with your evolving inner truth. Trust your instincts, especially when it comes to who you share your energy and ideas with. A powerful ally may already be paying attention, even if they haven't made their move yet. In case birthday season isn't festive enough, playful Mercury zips into Taurus this Saturday with a formal announcement that it's time to circulate. from now until May 25th, you'll be at the center of every buzzing hive as the socially nimble planet fires up the people-loving part of your personality. As a cautious Taurus, your MO is to think things through

thoroughly before you utter a word. But with the mic-dropping planet whispering in your ear, you can be confident that what you say will align with how you really feel. No more tamping down emotions and playing nice to avoid offending anyone. Mercury in your sign can lead to animated debates and even battles of the will, but they can be averted if you decide ahead of time that you're not going to take anyone's bait. And then you get to make like a torus and resolutely refuse. While this will be a candid few weeks, you'll also have opportunities to seriously grind on a project that needs your focus. Find the time and commit to finishing the parts that need your undivided attention. If you need to consult with a more experienced person, choose wisely.

And the same goes for how much you share. You don't have to give away. confidential intellectual property to get outside input. And if this involves truly sensitive material, get people to sign a non-disclosure agreement. The end. So, pretty seemingly specific. But before we get into... It seems specific until it just kept going and going,

and then it started getting more and more generic. On a scale of 1 to 10, where did you, where did that hit you? Like a 5. Oh, that had me like a three. Okay. I think the reason why is because it really seemed like a shotgun blast. Yeah.

Rather, like, even though the words they chose to use were very specific, the complete sentences were all over the place. I said five for the same reason because the first half I felt I could vaguely apply to myself, but the second half, I was like, what? It was all, yeah, I was expecting it to be one of those ones where it was like, Tauruses. You'll find love in a Capricord. Like, I was expecting it to be the vague that was kind of like, yeah, okay, I'm interested. Not the like sign an NDA type of vague. Yeah. I didn't know.

It would be like, you got to watch yourself sign an NDA. I'm like, what? Wait, what? For what? What do you mean? Yeah. So I don't know. And it's like, you got to stop being stubborn.

You got to take some advice or whatever this. I'm like, was there anything? Was there anything specifically that did resonate with you? Not in the league. Which is weird because usually they do. I think this one was just, it seemed like it was, you know,

when someone on Twitter writes something that's vague, but it's clearly about someone. This felt like that and I was not the person it was about. I can't remember exactly in the first half, but the stuff stuff about like subtle signs and whatnot. I'm like, I did mushrooms, so maybe.

Like, you know, that's what I was like, yeah, it could be. I feel like the way this works, right? This is just me is like, there's like really bold swings.

And then like every once in a while, you're like, because I'd be interested to hear what like, obviously I'm a cancer. So when you read mine, that'll be different. But Taurus is and cancers out there. I would be interested to hear how you guys reacted to these horoscopes also. And, you know, what they mean, what they, what they mean to you in general, what your guys' thoughts are on horoscopes. because I think they're pretty interesting. So I'm going to have real quick.

I'm just going to have Mathis read mine too, just because I copied it without reading so I could also react fresh, just because I want to see if it hits me or not. Your ambition is anything but accidental this Tuesday, May 6th, with Creatrix Venus gracing your 10th house of career in public image,

your radiating authority in grace. People are watching, crab, and they like what they're seeing. But thanks to a. simmering sex style from Pluto in your eighth house of power, privacy and joint ventures, privacy and joint ventures, the real momentum is building behind the scenes. This week could bring high stakes conversations, strategic financial talks, and a discrete meeting with someone who could open the right doors. If you're negotiating a raise, merging resources, or carving out a more

meaningful niche, lead with clarity and confidence, but keep a few cards close to your chest. This is a chance to align your outer success with your deeper purpose. What would it look like to be respected and resourced? Start taking steps in that direction now. The right person could be ready to invest emotionally, financially, and or professionally. Social networking is your superpower starting this Saturday. When influential Mercury kicks off its annual tour of grounded tourists and your innovative community-minded 11th house, by focusing on teamwork, technology, and cooperation, you'll be

drawn to an eclectic cater of creators, geeks, and idealistic social activists. This two-week mercury-fueled adventure will get your juices flowing and you won't need any coaxing to venture out of your protective shell. In fact, Crabb, if you connect with the right groups, you may find yourself leading the squad to the next exciting stop on your personal reinvention tour. If you've been feeling stuck or uninspired, the eccentric energy of this transit might spark some ideas that get genuinely excited. Between now and May 25th, give yourself permission to color outside the lines and explore areas that challenge your comfort zone. It can take a minute to adjust to the newness, but intentionally mixing things up from your

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Time out really quickly. That actually seemed like a horoscope. The one Alex read us was nonsense compared to this. That was pretty good. I mean, I've, that was actually like a real horoscope. insightful to me. You know, I don't know.

Like, I can't even get into the things that are correct about it because I didn't expect it to be so spot on with some of the stuff that it was talking about. But nothing about it is specifically about what I'm doing. Like, obviously I have a very specific job, right? And so, like, some of the stuff. Yeah, something,

something, something, you know, like this applies very directly to my job. But, like, if you work at, you know, a restaurant.

and you cook food every day. Like, it seems, and you just, like, imagine your chef and you read it. You can imagine a way that it can also apply to you. And I don't know, but, like, that was actually really spooky to me because I really do feel like I got something out of that. Like, that felt, that felt awesome. On a scale of one to 10, right, I would say. Like, that was pretty good. Yeah, all right.

Honestly, yeah, but again, that genuinely. It could apply to Jesse, too. Well, it didn't apply to me in any sense. sort of way, but it was like, I followed along in a way that the Taurus one, I simply did not. This one I was like, oh, no, this checks out as like a human robot.

I don't know why. The other one just, I was like struggling to be like, it was like for a secret agent or something. It was like for a espionage agent. It was like a very, very scary. I was like, okay. Yeah, this, the only thing I don't understand is like when they start to talk about like sex tets or whatever the hell they were saying. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah.

Sex style. But I'm sure that's something that like an online person who's into horoscopes will immediately be like, actually it's this. Like, okay. So now here's Jesse with a discussion question from the study guide for this issue. I will say one time I read on stream. I was like a weird thing where I was doing like my love language and a bunch of other weird shit on stream.

And I read my horoscope. And it was the most accurate thing I've ever read. And I was like, I don't remember what site it was. But it wasn't like a main site. It was just some guy's weird page. Dude nailed me specifically. I was like, I've never felt so seen.

I don't know how this guy pulled this off. But I was like, wow. I feel pretty seen by that horoscope just now. Like, that was pretty crazy. I really, like, identified with the issues that it was considered, like concerning itself with.

Pretty weird. Also, if you want the best personality test of all time, just start up a game of Dragon Quest 3. It's the first thing. It's the first thing that happens, and it is unbelievably good. Unbelievably good. It'll take five minutes.

When you have 47 minutes, though, turn to a fellow camper and ask them if they believe there's some really unknown cosmic force at work here, and whether or not that matters to whatever we think the end goal of reading your host horoscopes actually is. What do you think people use it for, Katie? what would you tell people their lives meant if you wrote the horoscopes? So what do you think? Is it, do you think there's magic to horoscopes? Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Like, what do you think? Like, do you think there's magic to horoscopes? Do you think, like, the fact that it sometimes can resonate with you is like some kind of thing that actually has to do with the fact that you are a torus? That's a fantastic question. I've often wondered if it's like a chicken and egg situation. So as a tourist, you're often told you're stubborn and you're an earth sign and you're very like grounded and you're the one holding the, you know, all the other horoscopes up and you are like, you know, you're the strong one. And I wonder if that's the thing that resonates with you because that's who you are or if it's a thing you're told that's who you are.

And so you think it resonates with you because you've been told that so often that it's like seeped into your consciousness. great question no clue exactly i think a lot of horoscopes are just like tarot cards once you figure out how to unlock and i'm going to say the power and air quotes because what i mean is the knowledge to understand what each symbol means and how to use that to your advantage same thing with a horoscope you can absolutely once you know what all the different signs mean and how to really get to them you can immediately pinpoint things about people that relate specifically to those things. So, you know, one of the great things about tarot cards

is I love when a friend or someone does tarot cards on me, I will eat it up, I'll absorb it all and be like, wow, that was fun. Dude, San Tell is stock in it, but I'll be like, that was cool. But then immediately afterwards, I'll take their deck and do one on them, and it will be almost as accurate. And I have no knowledge, but I know them well enough to know I can bullshit a horoscope. And I feel like that's a lot of the time, what the gimmick is.

But with that said, Horscope, though, the bullshitting, it's like, is it bullshitting or is it magic? It's like the same action. I think it's just a talent. Sure.

It's a talent that you develop and the people who are really good at it. I mean, if they're getting paid for, bless because I think it, what it really does, the same thing with going to like see a therapist or going, it gives you another voice to say,

I'm an outside observer, I'm looking out on your life, hear my thoughts about your life. And it lets you re contextualize some things and then you can move forward. And so even though I don't necessarily believe in like, I've contacted the spirits, what I do believe is that they have enough knowledge in some really good personality reading to absolutely pinpoint the things in you that you just need someone else to say to you so that you can justify

moving on or justify taking the leap or not, you know? Yeah. I don't know exactly what it is, but it is, it does make sense that people make theories like that we have like a shared consciousness. or shared understanding or something like that. Don't get me started. But that also could be media base. You know what it goes back to chicken and egg.

That's all, but that's all us, right? We all feel this way because we've been told that's how we're all supposed to feel. Or do we all feel a certain way because we all feel a certain way and the media is picking up? You know what I mean? Like that kind of thing. And what's the difference between those two things?

Oh yeah, exactly. And I think that relates to horoscopes as well. It's like, yeah, Mathis and I can hear a thing and it can be about both of us. And we'll pick up different things. Because I guarantee the things he heard in the Torres one were vastly different than the things I heard in the Torres one. Absolutely.

Because we picked up, oh, that's about me. Right. And that's that. That's the fundamental, I think, uh, interesting about if we go back to the idea with Alta's saying with like, you know, consciousness or whatever is like, we can all experience the same thing that fires off the same neurons in our brain. But we still have what's known as qualia, which is our own context, interpretation of it, which is something. that we can't pin down, which comes down to the argument of like, is consciousness fundamental or is it emergent? What do you say it's called?

Qualia? Qualia is like the, is what it's known as like the self, like your personal experience. Is qualia of the soul? Is that? We all, when we all look at red, all of our brains do the same thing to recognize red, the same neurons fire off. And it's like red. Now why we each feel differently about red is the part that, you know, we just,

just don't have the science right now to really figure out whether it's fundamental or yeah or emergent it's all science it's just science we don't know yet we don't even know if that's different we don't know if those two things are even a separate thing from each other which is kind of weird to think about it could be a mix of both yeah exactly like in order for if consciousness is truly fundamental and it is outside of like third our third dimension and is in fourth fifth where time isn't really existent. In order to experience a third dimension, you have to be restricted by the rules of physics.

So in order for, and the physics of the third dimension means time is at least experienced linearly. So it would need something to be able to, the brain evolves to consciousness or whatever. And like, it all goes loops around. But if it's emerging as well, then, you know,

that means it's generated by the brain and we need to figure that out. But they just in micro two. It's, but it's a never-ending spiral. Because like, I don't know if we'll ever be able to answer definitively. I think it's impossible for us to answer these questions because we'd have to like caveman it, if that makes any sense. Because I think the first humans were the first ones that had like, oh, awareness. Yeah. Because everything else from when we were babies,

we are experiencing everything that was experienced by our parents and stuff loaded onto us. So that's why we can get suckered by like, again, the color red. We see. We see. see red, we think fast or hot or, and those are things that were programmed to think. Just like when we see the color green, restaurants know you stick green on a menu, people think it's healthy. That's because they programmed us to think that. And that wasn't just the TV doing it. Or is it because trees are green. I mean, great question. But also, we know that green is lettuce or whatever. And we eat like, and but that's things our parents knew. And like, it goes back and back and back. And so I think the truest form of what is a real initial reaction to be like

ugg and zug back in the cave. Right. Yeah. But then we come to that, that's what introduces the endless loop because then there, Jesse, you are also now aware of the programming, which allows you to recognize and catch it and stop and that, which gives you a whole new personal understanding of that color, which is unique to how you came about that. Like, yeah, we get programmed with these things and this is an instantaneous still. But we are also able to sit above it and recognize it while still feeling the same impulses that our brain fires. And that's where qualia kind of is, the hard problem as they call it or whatever it is. It's also recognizing danger.

And the things that are built into us to preserve ourselves that, you know, that's another thing. Like, is it genetically there? Or were we, did we watch in Sesame Street before we could understand like memory? and it's burned in there somehow. And now we're like, stranger danger, got to watch out for that. Like,

I have no clue. Or are we, is observation the constant act of redefining something for consensus reality as a group? Like, you know, it's fucking weird.

Okay, Neo. Anyway, speaking of Neo, let's talk about that other wrinkle that I mentioned in the plot earlier. I'm genuinely not sure whether this was intended to be part of the research packet

or whether it just happened to be tucked into the issue of the magazine when they got it. However long ago they got it or whether it was Katie who put it in there. I don't know who put it in there. Maybe nobody ever checked. I don't know. But folded up in the middle of the magazine was also some sort of memo from somebody

that I'd never heard before, an agent A. Whitney Brown, who seems to be reporting back on whether or not magic actually is real. And just because I thought it was kind of a neat quote, I'll include it here as like my own little intro. and if somebody gets mad, it's not my fault. This shit was in the packet, and I don't love it when people play games with me, even if we are currently intent aligned, okay? So here is Mathis with the quote.

Obviously, as you can see, structure and objectivity in matters of magic and mysticism are almost by definition impossible to achieve. But of all the thousands of definitions I've seen out there, probably Alistair Crowley's is the most accurate when he write that it's the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will. I feel the findings of this report are in conversation with the results of Agent R.S.'s research into the work of Robert Monroe in the early 1960s, and that what we historically know as magic is really the face of the other side of the coin,

something natural and wild just exists within us all in some form, whether real or imagined, or even just in our values or preferences or identity, consciously or not, we all seem to be using our own magic and interacting with that of others on a daily basis. And it may form the very fabric of what holds humanity together as one global community. In terms of practical marketing applications, taking control of this force and bending it towards actualizing our own coveted imaginary world state would not only be effective, but decisive and righteously recommended. Now, I know some of that was a little weird, though actually I did find parallels in the part of the magazine, uh,

later that's about witches, which I'll get into in a minute. But first, I want to do a little self-quiz I found on the second to last page of the magazine, which is called, What Do You Mean by Magic? Which I'll have you guys take now to get the ball rolling. Does that sound cool? Love it. What do you mean by magic? Unlike lots of stuff we learn here at camp, magic is not a thing that has a particularly stable definition due to the various ways humans have related to it, mostly based on specific time periods and regions certain concepts first emerge, and the way they collide with advances in science and religion. And just like religion, actually, there really isn't a scholarly consensus on the definition. We're going to ask you to

relate to nine statements about magic. Pay attention to which number questions you relate to most. And at the end, we'll try and define your own relationship with magic based on three pre-approved definitions of it according to Chuluminati educational standards. Are you ready, boys? Yep. I got nine questions here. So they're not really questions. They're more statements.

I'm going to like read the statement, discuss it, and relate to it. How well you agree with it or disagree with it? How about that? And we can just kind of guide the discussion in that way. But we just got to remember the numbers of the statements that we agree with most. Okay? Okay. Statement number one is magic is the theoretical.

opposite of science. Sure, because it can't be explained, right? It exists outside of rational explanation. Yeah, that's one way of looking at it. Like, what, like, science is also, like, you know, a very sort of, like, rule-based and absolute sort of study that works from all angles, you know, obviously until you get into relativity, but, like, you know, it's a, science is a discipline of constants and of rules and of testing and experimenting.

And technically anyone with the ability should be able to replicate it. Yes. And magic, you couldn't because it's based on like something completely different. So what do you think? Magic is the theoretical opposite of science on like a one to five scale.

How much do you, how much do you align with that statement? I would say, I think I'm a little bit less of a Jesse on this. I think it's more of a three, somewhere in the middle for me personally. You're kind of. A lot of stuff that we,

assumed maybe as magic in the past ends up being science in the future. Quantum mechanics being that one. I always think about it was just like the, I mean, we discovered it in 1899, something about being a wave and a particle simultaneously until it was measured, that kind of thing. Not saying that all of magic is science unexplained, but there are aspects of what was once magic, I think, that are now explainable by science. Interesting. Okay. And Jesse, I'm going more definitionally rather than like the application, which I think Mathis is saying like, yeah, I mean, you know, science or magic is just like stuff we can't explain yet scientifically. I'm saying it from the idea of like magic, magic.

Like, you know, like I cast fireball. Right. Right. Right. That I think is. Yeah. It's something you can't replicate. So you're making more distinctions about types of magic and and stuff like that too also, right?

Yeah. I mean, like the idea of, you know, teleportation. Conceptually, that's magic. But in reality, if you could break the rules of physics, you can do it. And I guess that's where math is coming from. And I guess I'm just taking the idea of, well, if I could snap my fingers and disappear and appear somewhere else, that's literal. Like, I broke all the rules and no one else can replicate that. So that's magic. So if five is completely agree and one is completely. disagree. With the statement, five. Five. Okay. Second statement is magic is the theoretical opposite of religion. I super feel I disagree. Yeah. If you think about it this way. Think about it this way. Some people think that religion is order and rules and that magic is sort of like a more secret, private, like antisocial sort of thing. It's a complete opposite. It's a complete opposite.

Like, also, there are religions that are way more solo, anyway. Like, if you think about, like, arcaneness and the sacred text and the secret books and all that stuff, like, there's a way in which spreading magic is, like, the bad thing, whereas spreading religion is good, even though magic is similar to religion, it's just more. I think, I think it has to do with all religions thinking they're the right religion. And so their rituals are. Yeah, they're, like, Jesus. magic, fine. Other magic, satanic, which has always been a weird vibe. I've never understood it. Like, hold on. My man, Jesus can like water wine, but, and that's chill. But like, if I did it in a black robe, I'm evil. You know what I mean? Like, there's different layers to it that I've never understood. And I feel like that's, you know, it doesn't matter what religion.

Every religion has the idea of like, we're the right one. And so our mysticism is fine. You know, like going back to ancient Egypt. or ancient Rome or the Norse gods or Hindu gods like going back to like the kami or like if you go to Shintoism. Everyone has this idea of what magic is and then your religion just says, no, no, that's fake magic. We're the real magic. Yeah, I would say that it's magic is part of religion. It's the belief that you have that your magic is correct. So one, I would go one. I would absolutely go one as well.

I mean, as somebody who grew up Catholic and was in, it was a Catholic until he was nearly 20 years old. Catholicism is filled with rituals. Right. Transubstantiation is the literal belief that they're turning the bread and the wine into the literal blood and body of God. The literal blood and body of God. Well, the notion there is that that's not magic. That's religion. Right.

Sure. And then you pray to certain saints for certain abilities and what it's. It's magic. It's magic. It's magic. Fair enough. Fair enough. You don't draw the distinction.

Yeah. I don't, I mean, you look at Mormonism as well. John Smith practiced folk magic before he even got into what he... You can think of it as religion is magic plus fans even. 100%. Absolutely. I think there's very little difference. I'm under one as well. Okay. So one and one on statement number two.

Statement number three is magic is a proto-religious response to our complex human understanding of emotions and stress and is practiced to relieve internal tension. Is the assumption with that question that magic is real? as in we practice magic to really because in my mind hearing that question i'm like oh magic is us responding to the fact that there's just things you don't understand and it's much easier explanation this is an explanation for magic this is a this is like saying that magic is like in our brains like something that came from the same instinct within us that led to religion that lets us sort of like i would i would yeah reason our way out of feeling bad

without necessarily doing anything. Yeah. I think religion is just another type of magic, be it through belief or whatever. Because really, truly, honestly, none of us, not one of, I mean, like, you could be the most religious person on Earth. But you're doing it based entirely off faith and belief because none of us were around to see like, for example, going back to Jesus, him popping up three days later. Like, none of us were around for that. We're going based on the words of other dudes who told us to happen. what the vibe was. Yeah, we didn't know what the vibe was. It's funny. It's funny this is like the cause I was like before before the mushrooms. I was like also in a huge like religion hole with

the Gnostic Bibles and stuff. Oh man. But actually I remember when that she was popping out. I mean, there was one, the most recent one was discovered no five. I remember the gospel of Judas, right? That's, that's the one that came out. No for that was. But like even the what's known as the canonical Bibles within the actual Bible, it's even believed that majority of them with the exception of maybe Peter, I could be wrong, were written by not the people being claim to be written and are literally they may be like two one or two generations separated from when Jesus would have died right and that like and it's the same with the Gnostic Bibles because depending on like there's a lot of it's hard I've learned it's hard to carbon date those things

because how old they are but they were written around that same time maybe give another like hundred years or so give or take but same thing they weren't written by judas it wasn't written by Mary Magdalene the gospel of Mary or gospel of Thomas or gospel of John the brave I think like those weren't likely written by them either but there was a time in Christianity or just like where after Jesus's death it was like they needed that cred every they were everybody was trying to like create their own versions of it and that's where the Gnostic Bibles likely came from it was just the version that got more popular and took hold are the ones not to mention all the times that like the big church like edited down stuff oh yeah the council nice is like yeah or incorporated pagan shit or whatever yeah removed certain Bibles because the Gnostic Bibles what I find that about them is that they're a lot more in line with Eastern religious beliefs because they basically, Jesse, are you familiar with the Gnostic Bibles? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I listened to Coast to Coast when I was young, please. I'm aware. Those who don't know, like, there's a few out there. You can go read them. There's not, you know, a lot of pages of them preserved because they're fucking ancient.

But the idea is that the God that we worship known as Yahweh is actually like a false God, Yadalbleth, which is like a creation of one of the one true God over gods, like archons out of curiosity. created it. Ideally, essentially, it's not the real God. It's a God who thinks it's a real God. And then above them, there's a God that basically Jesus, even more legit God. Yeah. Yeah. In these stories, Jesus was more of a guru who came down and it preached his self-enlightenment. More like Buddha. As opposed to praying to God. And he's saying in order to like, it's unknowable. You cannot understand who, you know, this real God is. The only way is self-enlightenment. And that will bring you to heaven afterwards. Well, I mean, and of course it goes against the fact that like, A lot of religion is also organizational.

And so they want to keep the organizations going. Like, I mean, I think in general, all religions across the board have that sort of, you know, if you go to Islam, for example, you have the Sunni Shia problems happening there. You can talk about, you know, you have those problems within Islam. You have different thoughts between Buddhists. You have all the, like, not only is there just religion, but then there's sex. I mean, even Christianity has countless different sex of Christianity. And it's all based on the fact that, yeah, sure, it could be absolutely, truly real. I don't know.

I have no answers. But I do know that there's legitimate dudes who eventually just took over and made changes based on things they wanted. Yeah. And how real can a story be? anyway. Right. Like truly it, there's no answer to it, but I will say that I think religion in general, the idea of belief and spiritualism is very akin to the idea of believing in magic. And it just is. And whether you want to be like, yeah, but the magic is some dude pulled a trick on you and religion is real. It's all about level of belief. But do you think it's, do you think it's

kind of like in our development in that way where we, kind of like got here by trying to by being worried being stressed needing something to oh i think consciousness screwed us up completely the idea of understanding our demise is something that i think human beings struggle with and so at the foundational level it's either one of two things either one it's programmed in there that there is a higher power and we are all spawned from its greatness or two we put that in there because death is terrifying. Right. There's only the two options, really.

It's time for me to ask you an uncomfortable question. I sat down, ready, head in the right place. All right. Now, I don't mean this to make you really anxious and nervous, but what was the last time you needed to go to a doctor, but you pushed it off? Made an excuse. Oh, it'll heal on its own.

No, no, no, I don't need help. I am strong like man, like bull. Masculinity. It stops me from going to see doctors. Or, or I'm too busy. I can't, oh, I just got so much to do. I got so many things to go work for. I got, I mean, there's an excuse for any reason.

If you just think hard enough. And I get it, we've all been there to some degree. Booking a doctor appointment can just feel daunting. But thanks to Zok doc, there's no reason to delay. They make it so easy to find and book a doctor who's right for you. Listen, all I'm trying to do is stop you from falling down the is this normal rabbit hole? Like you wake up with a funky looking rash? You're just like, is this normal?

I'll be fine. Tight pain in your neck. neck. Oh, no, this will be fine. Listen, just don't do that to yourself of people who care about you. Again, and yourself. You should be worried about yourself. You can't help other people if you're not taking care of yourself, right? That includes going to the doctor. That's where Zoc Doc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. We're talking about booking in network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health to dental health, primary

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book a top rated doctor today. That's ZOC, doc.com slash chill. Zocdoc.com slash chill. Thank you again to Zockdoc for sponsoring today's episode. Yeah, I don't even think like I look at it as like it's greatness and more of like, you know, I more like I guess spiritual ways like it's probably like experiencing itself, you know, in a way that it can't normally. But I think I agree with you. I'm not a five out of five. I think I'm a four out of five. The only reason I have four out of five is because like I find interesting things in the monks who are able to meditate out in the

cold and generate heat and all these stuff so crazy super magic powers just interesting things that they can do with their brains that we have like like seems like with that said that's the same shit David Blaine did claiming it was magic right when he

would get in his like ice chest thing or he would do that like I was in a box for 700 hours like that kind of stuff basically he's doing the same thing the monks were doing but he was saying it was magic. Which of course it is. Which, of course it is.

You can look at it interestingly because, right, because he's going to be in that ice tank. And every fucking neuron in his brain is going to be firing saying, get out, you're going to die. And he's like, but his ability to be, to be conscious of it and make the choice and react independently of that is itself.

How is that not magic? The question, though, is that magic? Is that spiritualism? Is that the power of belief? Or is it the fact that human body? body is awesome and they've unlocked a part within themselves. Maybe that the vast majority of us haven't even tried to unlock because we're too busy going to work and we got shit to do and we're like, I got barrels to pay.

I can't get my life over ice. Does David Blaine, like, I don't know much about David Blaine other than like pop culture like. Well, he's also just an amazing actual magician. Well, yeah, he's an incredibly talented dude. But does he believe in magic with a K though, not on the trick kind of stuff he does. Oh, great question. I don't know that we never get to answer because I think the gimmick is.

Always being like, well, of course I do. I'm a magician. I don't think so, though. I think people that work that hard are too busy to like worry about shit like that. Yeah, sure. But I think it's a fun question because the idea of what is religion and how does it relate to these types of things. Again, like really truly, religion could be like, pick any religion. I guess it doesn't matter.

But like one of them could be absolutely correct. And that is what is going on. But the idea is we'll never know. None of us will ever really know. It's all belief just like magic, which is, oh my God, I saw the guy do an amazing car trick. I don't know how I did it. That must have been like, what a magician. That it's amazing even for it to be amazing in the first place.

Yeah, exactly. So on number three, you guys are what? I'm like a four. Yeah, I do. I do a four. I want to point out not to not to bring this up for debate. I don't want to debate aliens. But another aspect of like interesting UF, attached to UAPs is there are the individuals who say in, you know,

whether you can go look at videos you want, but the people who can meditate, who can summon a UAP in the sky, like you see it show up, but Chris Bledso, who, you know, you guys know about, because I've sent them to you before, just like he has the videos of the orbs in the sky,

he says if he prays really hard, they will end up showing up, which I wonder if it's similar to meditating. You know, you're getting to that similar mindset. It's different doors that lead to the same path of like being able to be an internal state of mind, a meditative state of mind. Does it matter if you're praying to God,

or meditating if you get to that point. Or if you're looking at a laser against a wall while you're on shrews. Yeah, but like you said, like magic religion in that, even in the UFO world, it's kind of like treated like I wonder like, what's the greater mystery of it all?

If all is like a door that gives access to the same thing, but isn't exactly those things you think it is. And what does it make it? It's interesting. It also is, is a thing that like when I hear that, I don't hear, Did this guy unlock a meditative process?

I hear an appeal to the religious to get in on this potential grift. To like seem to seem awesome so that you can. Yeah, he's like, I prayed and it happened. So one, I hit the like the Jesus guys are on my team and two, the alien guys are on my team now. And Joe Rosen wants to go out there and learn how to do it so he can be cold. Yeah. That always worries me. He may do it.

He may actually have done it. I don't know. But hearing it, I'm like, sounds like a grift. We'll do the Chris Bledso story on the show. I promise you. I love that story. So, so fucking weird.

But Chris Bloodsoe is interesting, and I will simply go to his defense by saying this. He has scientists and government officials constantly with him, studying what's happening. He had Stanford scientists there a few months ago. So whatever it is is weird, it's just, uh,

doesn't really mean religious or magic is real. No, but I just want to use that as another point where it's like religion and magic or it's like kind of a blurred line. I mean, we're being definitional here. We're like religion and magic. we're operating on our understanding of them.

But like, you know, in 500 years, we can find out that it's all one thing called quantum solaceness. And that's a whole other thing. Like, who knows, man? I believe that so much more. Yeah. Yeah, that makes like more. Yeah, I agree.

Like, it's weird. And I don't want to just cover my ass and say, by the way, I always referenced Christianity because what I grew up with. Sure. Same. I know this is true for all other religions as well for the most. Yeah. Yeah.

My other religions goes back to a. 12th grade class called comparative religions. Dude, that's really all I got. World religions in 12th grade. That honestly was the most eye-opening, like the minute you realized, yeah. That's interesting, yeah.

That almost all religions have some sort of flood myth. You're like, damn, what's that about? And a weird Jesus character that comes back from like after a few years. And props to my Catholic high school, who for my senior year was like, no Catholic religion class, world religion, that's it. It really opened up. It's eye. and interesting and you get to understand people a little bit better.

I always say, please step outside your box when it comes to religion. No matter what you grew up with, learn something else. Even if you reject those other things, learn about it. It's still interesting, man. It's so cool the history of where this all comes from. Statement number four, Magic is a more simple, less objective semi-precursor to both religion and modern science. I'm going to say three.

because I personally, I think like, okay, I understand what the question's asking. And going back to the idea of like a card trick, right? Like, yeah, all right. But if you think about the way Mathis was thinking about magic, it's an entirely different beast and could be on the exact same level as religion and science. Is it like a less rules based version that's like, like, necessary precursor to science, you said? Like baby version of science is magic. We're talking about why things happen. and we're looking at the world around us.

We're saying, oh, this is like these forces interact in this way. It's kind of what science is, just without the proving. I think I'm at a four. I'm a little higher than Jesse. And the reason is because, like, alchemy and all those medieval things eventually led to science. Like, they were doing magical alchemy rituals and all the stuff. You read, like, the Emerald Tablet and all that shit. But that is what those people eventually became scientists for time.

Yeah. Some of the people who follow that. Some of the people who followed that notion of why do we exist landed on fucking God. And some of them landed on fucking, you know, randomness answer. Yeah. Like, you know, some of them landed on science, you know, like what became like, it's all about proving the facts and theorizing and testing, you know. So it's like, yeah, I guess you're right.

If you go back to like ancient Greece, you had the philosophers and then you had oracles. Yeah. And like they're kind of the same. Yeah. Kind of the same. Kind of different. Okay.

answer the same question from different. And remember which ones you identify with hardest, by the way, which numbers you identify as farthest. So that's number five. I mean, that's number four. Yeah, me too. Yeah, that's okay. As long as the listeners can do it.

Number five, magic is non-social and can only most purely and truly be practiced alone. One. One. I think that's a bullshit excuse for people who are like, I'm a magician. I'm like, I'm the operating the dark arts, but you can't see it. You can't see that. I feel like true magic is only magic if another witnesses its creation. Does that make sense?

Can you put the question forward again then? Magic is non-social and can only most purely and truly be practiced alone. Yeah, I might be like a two because there are aspects of things like chaos, magic and stuff that are kind of necessary to be alone for the ritual itself. Assuming chaos magic is real. Right. Well, just, yeah, I'm playing the part of assuming this is all real. But, I mean, even Alistair Crowley and stuff had rituals that involved groups.

Four, five people, a lot of fucking involved. But even that is very non-social, right? Like, that compared to, yeah, compared to an audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But is the private version more powerful than the five-man version? No, I don't think so. Because it's even more subjective, which is like the pure mind. I might go to a two with Mathis and the idea that being alone, your level of belief has to be high enough in what you're doing that you're willing to do without an audience.

Right. To show off in front of. And so you're focusing on yourself and the gratification you get from doing it. Yeah. Which I can, I can assume it makes it a little bit more powerful. to you, the person who is going through the process of whatever that is you try to do? And it's very rare that you get social acceptance from practicing magic. It's definitely usually much more about you than it is about belonging.

Though in modern times, that's a little different because there's like a postmodern magic. But I would say like going based off what we talked about so far, the idea of magic and meditation, all those different things. If we're assuming the power of humanity and the collective consciousness is a thing, then other people involved would make it more powerful. Like you don't ever see in media the power of non-frenship winning. It's always, we've all combined our powers. Like, that's how the good magic happens always in stories. Fair enough. So I don't know why it wouldn't in this case.

Sure. Okay. Number six, magic is practical in contrast to the expressiveness of religion and is always a means to a specific end. As in, magic gets you things that you. set out for it to get you, whereas religion is about who you are and being a part of it and relating to the world through it, whereas magic, it's like, I want there to be more luck. I want there, I need to heal my stomachache. Not when, no, I say no, I don't agree, because Catholicism has patron saints that you pray

to for specific people. Right. They have, they have it. They have it. But maybe, but maybe that part of Catholicism is kind of more like magic. than it is like religion. Well, so I'm saying, yeah, they're not super different in this regard, I think.

But again, that goes back to Jesus magic. It's all, it's all magic. It's like, if you sew, if you like, so there's $20. There's nothing different about them. You'll reap $5,000. Like, but you're saying, you're saying that's magic because you're doing something

specific, right? Like magic is, which is magic is specific, right? Right. As in, as in it doesn't have a belief system, as in it doesn't have, uh, like, ways to apply. The belief system is...

No, yeah. It's just like, it's like magic is like, let's say, like, in the way that a gun shoots a bullet, this spell does this. Yeah, but I would say magic, though, even depends on the magic. Obviously, depending on the magic, but a lot of magic does require you believing in

entities or things beyond our perception that we don't understand. The veil. Can you do it without believing in it? I don't, I... This is rough, because I don't know... I don't think you would do it unless you believe in it. Like, if I just hang. You're doing like a podcast for experimentation.

Oh, as a casual nobody. I don't think you're going to do chaos magic if you don't believe in it. If I, if I'm like, does magic work if you just do the steps? Yeah, I can't answer that question because I don't. Yeah, I don't know. I think most magic is about surrendering over to other forces in order to achieve a thing. Be it good or evil or whatever. But it's like you are becoming a conduit for power.

and that's how you achieve things with magic. Right. But again, let me stress, most of my knowledge of magic with a K is media literacy and not actually like, I read the ancient texts. Like I have no real clue. I'm just going based off of like a ludicrously long time being a nerd. It's like, I guess this is kind of saying like magic is a tool and religious is a lifestyle. Religion is a lifestyle and magic is a tool is kind of what this is saying.

Um, I would act like that statement in modern times, I would agree. I think in the past religion was a tool to help you. Like if you were in a macro sense, it's a tool. But in your personal relationship with religion, you're not, it's not a tool for them. But I'm saying like, like if this was the year 1100, I was in the field. I was doing my stuff. And religion was a tool I used to be like, my life sucks. But when I'm dead, I'm going to be in heaven.

and everything's going to be great. So I'm going to use that to make my day a little bit easier. But it exists, but it is, I think for a lot of people today, it defines their personality completely. But religion just exists and you get what you get out of it, right? But magic is like,

I want to make this guy fall in love with me. You know what I'm saying? You see with the difference that I've drawn? You see the difference? Yeah, I guess you can, yeah, I guess I think I know what you're trying to say. I'm not trying to say where I land on this

because I kind of like made this, but like, I mean, I found this in an old magazine, but I, you know, you that out looking. Because I know which, which interpretations of magic each one of these relates to, but yeah, that's kind of what that one means. And also, remember, try and keep track of the numbers of which ones you agree with. Again, I think this would be, well, you'll have to go through them all there on, Alex, but I think like, this would probably be like a three again. I'm like, right down the middle. I think it's all definitional things. Yeah.

I mean, it is. That's exactly what we're trying to decide. is like what our own personal understanding of magic is. Sure. I would say a three. Yeah, I'll probably sit similarly. Okay, number seven, magic isn't real or correct or true. I'll say a four only because I personally don't believe in magic.

However, I am open to the idea that there are things I just don't understand. And maybe some dude out there literally is like throwing lightning bolts. And that would be the coolest shit ever. And I really, I'm holding out hope. that he can teach me. When you talk about magic, I don't come at it from lightning ball fireball angle.

I come out from like the weirder like consciousness of chaos magic angle. But that being said, what would you consider chaos magic by the way? So that dude, great question that you're gonna hang on to. Yeah,

we'll get into it. In depth. It's about intent and will. It's about intent and will. Yeah. Okay. You've been dropping chaos magic and in my mind I'm like Scarlet Witch, dude.

No. Yeah, no. Actually though. It's so like, chaos magic. is very much about being able to bend reality to your perception. That perception is reality and reality isn't really reality. I have a bag of a motor, dude.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So like, but it is, it's all very consciousness perception based, but we'll talk about it. Yeah. You know, in a few weeks. Okay. I think I said at a three. Okay. That not necessarily a four, but I don't, yeah, I don't, the stuff I believe in is more on the meditative side.

more about whether or not being real or true is even a thing is what you're saying. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Number eight, magic's role in communities should lack structure and there can be no church or school of magic. No. I would, yeah, I would say one on that. Any magic ritual should be passed on from person to person and should not be like become doctrine or become teachings.

it should just be itself. Every book should be written by a person. I'm still at one. I'm still a one on that. Yeah, I'm out of one. Okay. And number nine, magic is a misunderstanding

of the relationship between wishes and will. I think there's a lot of merit there. Yeah. I kind of like that as a phrase. Yeah. That really goes into Chaos Magic's whole shabend. in a way.

Yeah. I think I'm at a high, three, low four, you know? Yeah. Honestly, I think my big takeaway

based on this question alone, um, is that the separation between magic and religion is that religion is that religion is giving yourself over to something and magic is trying to control that to get it, to have it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's a fast, that's a fascinating way of looking at it. I agree. That's kind of what, it's kind of what I was saying, though about like, you know, the difference between the practicality of magic and the expressiveness of religion is that you are getting something with magic and with religion, you're kind of like interpreting it like a song.

I mean, I think both of them are trying to get you something. Like, as much as people who are religious want to be like, I'm very selfless, I think it's sort of like, you know, it's a selflessness because you get a reward at the end. But you know, like some Christians are like, we are supposed to get as much money as possible. and they're like we're Christians and then like some Christians are like we should be completely poor and like give everything to everyone and we're Christians. Right. That's what I'm saying about expressiveness of religion versus the practicality of magic is that it's like

the teachings of Alistair Crowley are very clearly about one thing and are not open to interpretation in that sense. They are very much like instructions for how to do shit, right? Which is not what the Bible is in any way. So that's kind of what I'm talking to. about. God, I want to, that's a whole, well, we'll get there one day. Anyway. Like, there's so much I wanted to say. Yeah.

That, Alistair Crowley stuff. I mean, we're going to, I mean, that's, that's at the most, that's at the most surface level, of course. Like, there's so much more. There's instruction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much more to it than that, but it's much more about, like, how to in a lot of ways than, like, the Bible is. All right. So, at least in a direct way. So that's all nine. So now one more time, reviewing your head, which numbers were important to if you're listening to this. And then I'm going to give this to Jesse for the reveal from the magazine. And remember, you're probably not going to fit cleanly into one category here. Most everybody's

going to be shades of all three categories. And when I read this, by the way, to any listener who's over on the subreddit, could you just give, I assume we're getting total scores or whatever, give them the, the Mike and Jesse breakdown. Yeah, that's what I want. We forgot. We absolutely forgot. Yep, yep. You guys want to know what you. guys are. Yeah. Put that over on Reddit so I can read that. Yeah. I think I surprise me. I think by the time you get to the end of this little thing that you're about to read also you'll have a pretty clear idea of where you land. But here I'm going to give you this and then the second half of it's right here. Let me drop it in before you start reading because it's going to fuck you up. Great job, Katie. I hope you really looked inward to your true self when relating to these statements for yourself. Here's how you did. If you related strongly to statements one, four and seven, you may be closest to holding an intellectualist conception of magic. Intellectualists often see magic and religion as based in sort of a mistaken understanding of natural forces, which have since been better described by modern, more scientific findings.

They see magic as having an inferior, almost homeopathic view of the world around us, and while many interpretations compare magic, science, religion, intellectualists are defined by their very commonly held belief in magic's inherent falseness when studying it. If you related strongly to statements two, five, and eight, you may be closest to taking the functionalist approach to magic. This understanding of magic emphasizes its mystical and secret tendencies, stepping a little further away from the notion that it exists merely to describe the world around us, or the idea that magic itself, unlike its cousin religion contains many universal systems or disciplines, putting the power of the individual

or small social group above adherence by the many, and instead attributing power to the rituals themselves and the way we relate to them on our own. If you related strongly to statements three, six, and nine, you might be most interested in the emotionalist approach to magic. Emotionalists reject magic's connection to science and religion in favor of its connection to relieving more personal stresses and specific individual needs. For example, a luck ritual is magical because it was carried out with a specific intent of meeting a specific need for luck, like for a good hunt or a good outcome in battle or in sport. Poor Katie, what is she up to? emotionalists like Freud would have gone so far to say that magic's origin is rooted in humans wanting stuff so bad that when they get it, they mistake the good outcome for a good method of getting that outcome until eventually certain methods become sacred.

I would imagine that's kind of like wearing your lucky jersey. Yeah. So, Katie, where do you rate? did you resonate or did that resonate with you at all if it did or your current magical alignment becomes a source for concern please find the nearest camp counselor and fill out an adherence instability form and rest assured we'll be stopping by your cabin with the appropriate authorities as soon as possible to help you better commit yourself to having good clean fun in the sun have a magical day yeah so which one are you guys the the emotionalist, the functionalist, or the intellectualist? I feel like, I feel like I said five, number one was a five for me. You both kind of were in this realm of like, at first there was magic and then we learned better.

That was a big part of both of your guys' things that we were saying about some lines of what magic was. Like a lot of the stuff that we thought was magic then was discovered to be something mundane, right? that's a big part of intellectualism. Functionalism is like magic is like an internal activity. It's like the most private, like in the way that magic is secret, in the way that there's covens, in the way that there's, you know,

solitary wizards on the mountain and that like being alone with your studies and pondering your orb is at the core of magic, that is what functionalism is. It's that privacy of magic as a diametric. opposite of letting it bring you together into communities, right? It's almost like selfishness in a way. It's like it's about not doing it for the sake of common understanding. Exactly. Right.

And then and then emotionalists are like, again, like much more about needing a solution to a problem and get and then getting the problem solved and being like, what did I do? like how did I how did I make this happen? I must have done my dance. And then that's what made the rain happen. Or I must have, you know, it's because I ate this specific thing that I was able to do a front flip so cleanly, you know, in the battle. And like, now I eat this or like, you know, blood makes you. I need to get stronger to like to like be a more buff guy.

So I eat like meat because it's like red and it makes me. me feel buff, like that type of stuff is that as like what's at the core of magic, right? I feel like if I were to look on Reddit right now and hopefully that person posted, um, I, I know that I responded really well to one and two, but I know that sort of the later ones like five and stuff. So I definitely, I don't think I was a functionalist. I feel like I'm an intellectualist on this, but also part of me deep down is like, I've definitely done some emotionalist things in my life for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I guess I'd land as like a intellectualist border functionalist. Okay. Yeah. I'm curious what it says. I'm interested to hear. And obviously,

like I said, that's only some, some ways of interpreting magic. And I think like, in general, there's a lot more to it than that. And I'm obviously simplifying and reading an old, like I said, it's an old kids magazine. So give it a break. But now we're going to talk about witches, like I promise. So here's Mathis with a quote from the magazine. Hey, Katie, just in case you didn't know, witches are in fact very real. And what's more, they're probably one of the most important sorts of cultural figures you need to know about in order to truly understand the role of magic in American history. And in Chaluminati's plans for future Americas and your future, especially because, enviously, no one has a real clear idea of where it is that witches originally came from. You see, the concept of witches goes all the way back, not just to the origins of Western culture,

but is one of the oldest concepts to appear in all cultures around the world, including Sumeria, which is probably one of the earliest, if not the earliest developed civilization on record, and continues very powerfully all the way into the modern day. As a result, it is almost impossible to determine the mundane origin of this ancient concept, and instead appears as an intrinsic icon that is fully accepted and understood worldwide. And because it seems to come from literally everywhere, which is also give off the powerful feeling that they have always been here, here, which I don't know about you, Katie, but doesn't that sound like a little bit of magic in

itself? Yeah. So that's just an info box, like little blurb in the magazine. So it's a pretty short little thought. And I'm not really sure why they like specifically wanted me to put that piece in. But when I got the, when I got the, uh, like, memo thing from Agent Brown, um, I kind of like saw it and thought it was kind of like an important connection to what he was saying. and then later in the memo I was reading and I actually found like another quote from him that I thought was kind of interesting and tied into what we were doing in terms of defining magic.

So I kept reading the memo and I found this other quote and here we go. So this is it. The other thing to keep in mind is that magic without a conduit is simply out there. A force of nature like electricity or magnetism but half imaginary. It is only the mind, the person, the witch, the warlock, the conduit, the very human essence itself, which completes the magic circuit.

To create our own type of magic, we must study the way other magics are shaped, but we must also study how they grow. For the Chulamati to have always been here, we must be like the witch and the warlock and anyone and be anyone and come from anywhere. And we can't do that by remaining on our own shores. America is merely the new world. Another step for the developing magic of the old. A new young viewpoint that somehow dominated the entire globe. We must take the journey magic took to get here. Basically, look, all this is to say to deliver a full valuable report,

this agent needs a bigger travel budget. It seems like Alex wrote this. Did Alex write? Was this you? I just found this. I just found this. Right. And amazingly,

somebody sent it to me in my pneumatic tube in my office. Amazingly, that's insane. It seems like, from the future, dude? I hope not. That would be really disappointing.

Amazingly, amazingly, it seems like whoever wrote the Chaluminaught's article had the same idea. Because next, we got popcorn reading of an article from the magazine

called a very, and they put it, you know, it's kind of whimsically a very short history of magic in the old world with math, which Mathis will start for us

in Mesopotamia, and then we'll go back and forth for just like a few little things. So this is Mathis talking about magic as it was in Mesopotamia. Kind of like an elementary school, middle school level. Magic is as old as literature itself or even before, as we've even found evidence of artifacts, art and ritual before recorded language that could qualify. Just as they are philosophically, magic is often related to science and religion historically in cultures around the globe. Here's a brief look at just a few, to emphasize the similarities and differences between

magic traditions around the world. In ancient Mesopotamia, magic was often performed as a service or blessing by experienced experts. It was most commonly seen in rituals and medicine, which didn't really exist as independent of one another, and which was intended to counteract or protect people from or trap the forces or influence of evil and ghosts, demons, vengeful and dead spirits, secret curses, and dark sorcerers were known to be credible threats to normal life. And no distinction was made between magic use for good or evil as both sides were assuming to be using symbols. techniques. Purification rituals were also very important in Mesopotamian magic tradition, with an intention similar to modern-day Catholic confessions and love spells for everything

from seduction to sexual performance enhancement. Magic was also associated closely with the gods of the day and with the concept of arcane high knowledge. So that's like the Mesopotamians. That's like Sumerian plus when the education system doesn't want to distinguish between cultures in the Middle East for some reason. And then here is Jesse. talking about ancient Egypt, which is like one of three civilizations that has ever been in the world, according to the Los Angeles Unified School District. Here we go. In ancient Egypt, magic was personified by the god Hecca and was central to both religion and culture of the region and widely believed and accepted. Hecca was also used to refer to the practice itself,

as well as the magic of other cultures and was seen as a tool for mankind to stand against the natural world itself. As such, it was practiced widely by everyone from intellectual priests to illiterate farmers, and because humans are seen as of the gods, and containing similar divinity, Hecca is centered simply around the power of words to bring things into being, which is fun because, coincidentally, so is the Chaluminaati. Also, Egyptians love to imbue objects with magical properties, especially when it came to protection amlets for both the living and the dead. Since no distinction was really made between the actual physical reality of life and the afterlife, and magic was seen to be consistent in both realms.

In fact, many of the rituals surrounding mummification are intended to give humans the same divine agency they had in life after death. And finally, in this very short and incomplete tour, here's Mathis again, with medieval Europe. Magic and medieval Europe is largely characterized by the absorption of Greco-Roman magical concepts in traditional Christianity and the various inconsistencies in gray areas this created in between them. Like the Greco-Romans who saw magic as a human in origin, as human in origin, Christians themselves saw magic as originating from Mesopotamia and Egypt,

various other smaller groups in Christian-controlled areas who still held fast non-Christian beliefs in secret, sort of created an illusion of a unified magic. tradition when really it was broad and varied. To practice it openly was usually seen as negative or bad, but nevertheless, various traditions were widely practiced and commonly accepted depending on the specific beliefs of various areas. In the Islamic tradition, however, magic was less condemned and had more of a distinction between what we would recognize today as the white magics of healing than the black magics of

Jin's sorcerers and devils. As time went on, barriers between the cultures were blurred under Christianity and a more congealed form of folk witchcraft emerged. Okay. And finally, after all of this context, it is this congealed form of witchcraft that sort of came from the like hang tough together under Christianity type vibe of people just not really needing to interact with the church that much and being able to kind of do whatever they want and traditions kind of spreading and being exchanged through the first steps of globalization, right? We do get this kind of of folk witchcraft that's kind of like a mix magic and magic in general is a very mixed

thing but this was truly like actual postmodern cultural mixing creating a new thing and this kind of is the North American magic tradition seed but as we'll see in this letter that closes us out today from Agent Brown there's still one more piece of the puzzle and here is Jesse with a quote from Agent Brown about that. Almost universally, travelers to the new world defined by their desire for their dreams of various extremist paradises imported to low world, what to low, oh world magics, boy, I cannot read, of the common man unto American soil, whole cloth, but separated from the natural constants at the heart of these traditions. These experts in magic, experts in magic suddenly found their knowledge. knowledge incomplete. It was only when the indigenous tribes appeared with their ancient innate knowledge of these new local forces that something new began to emerge and magic a magic melting pot with roots on a totally different metaphysical shore. If we are ever to create our own new magic, we must understand our new shores just as deeply. And with that, we end part one of the Guide to Magic in America.

But there's plenty more magazine and there's plenty more memos for next week when we actually start to unpack some of America's own unique, young, baby, magical traditions and our entire other cultural history of belief that sits on the other side of this giant magical coin. And holy crow does it, does it get even ever wider? and America, if you don't think America has like a unique and ancient magical history of its own, you are probably a colonist. So colonists came with fucking folk magic. Yeah. So there you are. And this has been this. What did you guys think?

I love this topic. So I'm very excited to continue to see where this go. Yeah. So yeah, minisode to come. Love you. And see next time. We'll see you next time. Thank you for appreciate your support.

Goodbye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. stop.