Chilluminati Podcast - Episode 301: Richard Kuklinski Part 2 - Man and Myth

Episode Date: May 31, 2025

The boys continue their deep dive into the Serial Killer turned Mob Hitman, Richard Kuklinski aka, the Iceman. But...is the story behind the man true? MERCH - http://www.theyetee.com/collections/chilluminati Thank you to - Quince - http://www.quince.com/chill All you lovely people at Patreon! HTTP://PATREON.COM/CHILLUMINATIPOD Factor - http://www.factor.com/chill50free code chill50free Jesse Cox - http://www.youtube.com/jessecox Alex Faciane - http://www.youtube.com/user/superbeardbros Editor - DeanCutty http://www.twitter.com/deancutty Show art by - https://twitter.com/JetpackBraggin http://www.instagram.com/studio_melectro

Hello everybody and welcome back to the Chiluminati Podcast episode 301. As always, I'm one of your hosts Mike Martin joined by my two beautiful hosts in LA, Alex and Jesse. Beautiful. Andy said our names. I'm shocked. I don't it's a new day. 301. Yeah, 301. We're past 300. I love it. I love it. Okay. I love that I'm beautiful out the gate. I don't have any argument to make. I

don't have to fight for my identity. I feel good. I feel beautiful. I wonder. Yeah. I hope everybody will see how the listeners, uh, you know, adapt before we move forward permanently. But, uh, yeah, welcome to the show. Gentlemen, how you been? How was your week? I, you know, I've been thinking a lot about remorseless murder, which has been, you know, heavy on my mind. But in my personal life, it's been a great week. Except that I've been trapped in my house for the entire week because my landlord ripped my front door off and my door doesn't lock. And they're painting and rebuilding all my stairs and I couldn't leave or enter my apartment from the hours of nine to four. And yes, I realized that that's not

legal. But you know what, I got to do my work and I don't have time to have a lawsuit. So that's what my week was like. How's that? No, that's Yeah, no, you are pretty good. Beautiful, beautiful week for us. Beautiful. It matches your descriptor of the day. Sorry to hear that, but maybe if we had more money at Patreon, you could hire a lawyer to do all of it for you. Yeah, I think what we're trying to say is Alex's struggles are really

your responsibility, audience. Yeah. So why aren't you helping Alex? I think is what these two gentlemen are saying. I think that's correct. I've got to I've got to I've got to pay pal. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no I've got a I've got a I've got a PayPal You if you guys just want to reach out no no The barrel we really are Gmail Donation to one send $200 send money to Alex say $20 200 my way

That's you know it's worked for me in the past I've made that joke in the past and I got a couple of Chipotle burritos out of it. I don't want, I would genuinely feel like I now owe everyone Chipotle. I'd be like, I owe everyone Chipotle burritos. I, I, yeah. The $10,000 Patreon joke has never taken a serious bid yet though, but we should keep that's cause that's ludicrous. But someone out there will definitely buy Alex a burrito and I don't want to be a part of that.

The $200 PayPal reality is going to work out just fine. Uh, but no, don't do that. If you're going to spend money on us, please go to patreon.com slash children, 90 pod to make sure that, that we are, uh, yes, we're able to make this beautiful show forever and ever. And my dog agrees. Yeah, that's that. No, that's a dog being like, don't do it. It's shameless. Like he announced himself on his way. He was on his way over, letting you know before he came in. What wants that thing that happens in 101 Dalmatians or all the dogs like they turn into a coat

She'll imagine pod boys. It's are you ready to dive in we need to we need a hard pit There's no easy way to go from fun We need to hard pit. There's no easy way to go from fun, lightheartedness into part two of what is going to be a three parter on the man known as Richard Kuklinski. A.K.A. the Iceman. So Alex, I hope you're prepared for today as you typically seem to be now with serial killers. I get your serial killer bingo cards out there. Alex strong serial killer vibes. I've said this before. I'll say it again. No, I know. Closer to a Jim Jones than a serial killer. Alex puts on the cult front, but really he's a, he's like,

you know, I'm more of just like a cat. I feel like I'm more of just like a catchphrase guy. Look at him. He'd kill people. I'm more, I'm more of like a catchphrase guy. I feel like, no now am I trying to What's that mean push the suspicion away from me? Maybe maybe I you do we do notice Alex has a gangar ghost potentially represent the ghosts of his victims and isn't gangars like kids and stuff I believe so that's you know, here's here's when I'm gonna walk off the show is when we do a whole story about like Like a gang gar guy like I don't want to our guy if there's a Gengar guy that's when I'm

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Thank you again to quints for sponsoring today's episode. All right, boys, we got to get into this shit. Here we go. Part two of the ice man, Richard Kuklinski of three parts. And you'll understand that at the end as to why. So where we left off, it was the early 1970s and Richard Kuklinski's evolution from like a street predator to paid mob killer was just about complete. He had a vibe. If we remember, he had a very violent upbringing marked with brutal daily beatings from his alcoholic father named Stanley Kuklinski.

And obviously the, the weird religious fanaticism of his mother, Anna had He was knocked unconscious by his father at 5 years old. He had brain damage almost assuredly. His father's abuse was also so pathologically cruel that it literally led to the death of his older brother Florian, who his father had struck on the head so hard it killed him. He was a man of the heart. He was a man of the heart. He was a man of the heart. He was a man of the heart.

He was a man of the heart. He was a man of the heart. His father's abuse was also so pathologically cruel that it literally led to the death of his older brother Florian who his father had struck on the head so hard it killed him And they then told Richard to tell the authorities that he had fallen down the stairs and then hit his head Which is how he died. So the whole family was complicit in the cover-up of how his older brother even died I would never recover from doing that. Just that. That would be enough to like take me out and ruin my entire life. If I, if I, if I was responsible for something like that, do you think you would turn into a serial killer?

I don't really feel super serial killer-y. I, you know, I, I, I, I never have had, well, you know what? Actually, now that I think about it, I've fallen down the stairs and gotten a permanent dent in my skull as a result So if you are maybe I do have a head damage. I don't know You know cover remember there are all cover. I've seen Dexter. I Remember though, like, you know, there are tons of people who go through this level of abuse and don't end up Fucking serial killers. That's that's really the that's really the main thing is that it's not like a formula like no There are certain things that may make it easier to slip into that path

But there's no never definitive. This is what you have to become Yeah that foundational trauma though for him witnessing his basically only childhood friend and older brother murdered by his dad being forced to lie by his mother compounded by his own early acts of cruelty like capturing stray cats and dogs, tying their tails together, doing all kinds of horrible things to them, essentially laid the groundwork for what would be a career steeped in violence. His first human kill, the bully named Charlie Lane, remember poor meant the crap out of him. This was his pivotal moment after beating lane to death with a wooden closet pole at the age of 14 who Klinsky had already a

chilling calm to his methodical movements. He disposed of the Bosnian body quite a distance away in a desolate marshlands of South New Jersey. He meticulously removed Lane's teeth with a hammer, chopped off his fingertips with a hatchet hammer tool that he actually found all techniques that he gleamed from the true crime magazines that he was obsessed with. Serial killer monthly? Basically, that's what these things are, man. Like they're like, and then the serial killer monthly. Basically, that's what these things are, man. Like they're like, and then the serial killer did these things, but the police found out because of this. And you know, what's so, what's so wild about this is it kind of, so you know how every

time there's a, I don't know, like some sort of dramatic event in the news or some sort of attack or some sort of anything, there's always like a pundit on TV or someone who's just like, well, you know, it could have been a lot worse if he had done this and this and this. And I always have the thought of like, why are you saying that man? Yeah. And it's very clear in this scenario that this dude was like the guy taking notes. And we will also in future cover other serial killers who very much make you realize that the reason serial killers often get caught

is their own laziness, usually within their keeping it too close to where they live. But those who go through the work to spread everything out and make it look random almost never get caught. And the reason they do is their own mistakes every single time. Isn't it crazy that Zodiac got the recipe for a fertilizer bomb out of like a domestic terrorism handbook that was just going around? Like, what's up with that? Yeah, it's exactly correct. So who knows, you know, like, now granted, now we live in a more digital age where that kind of thing is much easier tracked and followed. So you have a lot less privacy in that regard, but it's still not impossible if you remove

all sense, you know, all ties to electronics, all ties to the internet. You could probably disappear, but people would know you disappeared at that point because you're so entrenched unless you literally know nobody. This first kill of his bully, basically he said, quote, I will never ever allow anybody to fucking abuse me again. And from that point on, and he never really did. Now to him, he didn't kill anybody impulsively anymore, at least not primarily when on a contract. Those jobs for him demanded a different, colder mindset.

He killed with more deliberation, purpose, and a profound sense of detachment that would become the hallmark of his killings. Kuklinski had learned how to turn death into a business and a craft that he mastered. And by his own admission, it wasn't the act of killing that he enjoyed, it was the intricate process leading up to it, saying things like, I don't particularly enjoy the killing you know, I enjoy the stock, the planning and the hunt much more. And the kill itself for him was merely the closing act, the culmination of all that effort and all that work.

He liked, as we said in the first episode, being good at something and also murder was something he didn't actually really hate. You want to know why I don't buy that shit? Why just play tag bitch. Like, right, right. Like, Oh, you, I had to kill like, Oh, you know, I just love the hunt man. You know, like, yeah, I gotta kill people, but like, I, you know, I just love tracking them down hunting them. Just be a fucking, uh, process server. God damn. No shit. And even like if, you know, I just love tracking them down, hunting them, just be a fucking, uh, process server. God damn.

No shit. And even like if it's like, yeah, but I don't, I like it when they don't know. Okay. You can still like not follow through on any of the violent stuff. You know, when it's like, you know, when it's like Mike Martin and you're like, yes, it's like you're getting a divorce. Like, you know, like I want to be that guy. I want to take off the mailman outfit and reveal that I'm actually, you know, you know, you could, you could dog the bounty hunter and still be the same thing. Exactly. Exactly. Or have you seen the game? Let's do that to yourself. Just shoot Sean Penn. Yeah.

Yeah. Just shoot Sean Penn. That's fine. Yeah. But for, but to him in his mind, it wasn't about that. It was less an emotional outburst and more of a performance of dominance and control, a lesson in deadly discipline. And murder was what he considered his skill set, his unique value in a world that prized lethality. You can work at the fucking White House. Nowadays, yeah, if you just hung out, hung on for a little longer. You're just into like dominating and like subjugating, you know, if you just hung out, hung on for a little longer, you just into like dominating and like

subjugating, you know, it's just like, he's just like into like doing that his own way at the beat of his own drum, man. Yeah, he's a killer. It's not about the killing just kills. He just has to kill. Yeah, exactly. He's just a serial killer. He prided himself on his ability to carry out any contract successfully, no matter how difficult or grotesque the requirements of him were. And as the author of the book again, to carry out any contract successfully no matter how difficult or grotesque the requirements of him were.

And as the author of the book again that we're using wrote written by Philip Carlo, Caller wrote quote, no job was too difficult. He successfully carried out every crunch contract he'd ever been given and he prided himself on that largely. And word in the crime world began to spread across Jersey and New York's criminal underbelly that there was a man who could make people disappear without a sound, a whisper, and he wasn't tied to the mob or any of the families directly. He was an Italian, which was a significant detail that would normally bar him from deep

trust and involvement with La Cosa Nostra, but for whatever reason, he possessed something even more valuable to the mob. The unwavering results in absolute direction. It was like the proof was in the pudding. Yeah, okay. He's not part of the family, but look at how good he is. Look how thin he slices the garlic. Yeah, exactly.

This guy, you know, they should have done is they should have got magicians for the shit make people disappear. No sound sound no witnesses The mob the mob and the mafia be way cooler that way. Yeah, they just that's how they made people disappear I'm gonna make him disappear if you know what I mean Yeah, and that page just goes like it zooms out. There's somebody in a chair with a Freaking that's the plot of now. You see me three actually that's like actually like the level of storytelling that goes on in those films A lot of now you see me three actually that's like actually like the level of storytelling that goes on in those films

He for the most important part for them was he didn't talk he didn't brag he didn't panic the street legend Was that if Kuklinski got a contract it got done He just had like a hitman fetish like straight up absolutely correct Yeah, and the body more often than not wasn't wasn't found He was a ghost a much sought-after specialist a homicide superstar in the netherworld of murder You like that? I got a couple I got another one coming another world of made another world of murder He was basically unique in that he filled the murder contracts for all five New York crime families as well as the two New Jersey mob families the as well as the two New Jersey mob families, the Pontus and the DeCavalcontes. How did he not get killed for that?

That alone seems so fucked up to me. You see, you feel that seed of doubt? You feel in that seed of doubt? I want you to hold on to that seed of doubt. Don't water it. Don't tend it, but don't forget it. Everything I know about committing crimes that are- We've done a lot of crimes and I like, we'll talk more.

All right, I'll hold onto that. I'll hold onto that in my chest. And that comes from, well, your pattern recognition in doing this show for seven years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, by Kuklinski's own extensive accounts, over 240 hours of one-on-one interviews with this guy with crimes and murders verified where possible with police sources,

documents and underground mafia contacts. He was already responsible for dozens of murders by the time the organized crime families began taking a serious interest in Kuklinski. Some were, some of his acts were indeed just impulsive acts of rage. We talked about him last time, the random stabbings of the homeless, shootings over perceived disrespect, just kind of a hair trigger temper that he very much maintained from his father. There's an example. He recounted a killing in particular, a nasty

that he used on a homeless man on Manhattan's west side with two swift knife thrusts for aggressively demanding money and then Grabbing his shoulder like some guy came up grabbed his shoulder and demanded money And so he just fucking took a knife and stabbed him twice. See again to me. He's like I'm a professional I'm a fucking ice. I'm the ice man ice cold school. And then it's like, so you were walking down the street a, a, like famous mafia assassin. And you just this time not necessarily famous mafia yet. They're starting to take notice of him. Okay, he does a couple jobs for them. Whatever. Yep. But like, then you just turn around and like commit a cold-blooded murder on the street to like just Absolutely put suspicion on yourself Like like it just it just seems sloppy to me like like for somebody who's trying to be hitman 47 That seems sloppy to me

Well, remember we talked about last week too that he boasted of killing on Manhattan's west side the part that was basically like left alone He really focused on the ignored parts of society, like the homeless. Those were his targets when he was in a random killing mode. But what year is this? It's not like 1905. Like, you know, it's the 60s, 70s. We're in the 1970s. Yeah, 60s and 70s.

He even called it his lab for murder. He even he said that he cleared the neighborhoods of these kinds of people, estimating the numbers. The number as quote all the fingers on both hands five times is how many people he killed randomly. This is like the guy in your car like you're not even college high school or middle school who like read all the Square Enix players guides and then said he played all those games. You know what I'm saying? Like this, this feels absolutely nonsensical to me. This is like, yes, I think I know what you're saying. Yeah. It's like it's insanity.

And he would often say to the reason would be simply for looking at it the wrong way or they were being too pushy asking for like spare change. I had to kill him right then and there. And then after I killed him, I just left. Yeah, but it was fine. But then he goes on to talk about like how other random killings were also just straight up chillingly calculated. Like he says one man he said that he beat to death

purely just for the exercise, like the cardio. And then what did he do? What did he do with the body? He took the body and dumped it elsewhere. Oh, are you like? For exercise. Yeah. That's insane.

He also said another, an abusive bouncer at the Orchid Bar in Union City who had kicked him out and spit on him. He later ambushed later and bludgeoned with a hammer in his car, destroying his face beyond recognition. I mean, we've all brutally murdered one or two people that have pissed us off. Bouncers in particular.

I hate it when a bouncer kicks me out. Let me just get drunk in there. He also said he shot another man for cutting him off in traffic. That he said- From car to car? An incident that he said that occurred after Paul Rothenberger hit,

that was another hit he got called for. Yeah, car to car, where Richard, incensed by the driver giving him the finger Followed him off the parkway and shot him dead at a lot at a stoplight hold on Do we have evidence of the dead guy at a stoplight? hold on to that thought I Promise you I will address all okay that you guys are thinking We've got us. We've got a timeline to go through

the line for Kuklinski at this point between like contract killing and thrill killing, even if he said it, he wasn't thrilled killing for the sake of thrill killing had basically been blurt. He just killed people. He would just be playing competitive tag if that's what it was about. Exactly. Exactly. My man is bored in grand theft auto.

Yeah, that's really what he said. Sound. He's in truly sad. He's like, he's actually, he's actually bored in like assassinft Auto. Yeah, that's really what he said. Sounds it truly sounds like that's actually good. What's the word in like Assassin's Creed? Like some nonsense like where he's just like, you're dead. Like, what is that?

Yeah, you just walk up to him. You're dead. That's crazy. And what made him particularly attractive to the mob figures wasn't the sheer volume of violence. Again, it was his cold, unwavering professionalism went on the job. He didn't drink on the contract. He didn't over talk. He didn't make messes unless a mess was specifically requested requested in the contracts

term. That's a mess was you said on his way home from a hit. He shot a man at a stoplight, but he wasn't a dude. He was professional, but he's professional. Yeah. That's like what happens in a movie. That's like the, that's like the last part of a Quentin Tarantino movie is like the guy fucks up and shoots someone at a stoplight and then everybody dies. Like, I want you to think about it for a second too.

If we were to believe it's true, it is the seventies, right? I will. Okay. What evidence would anybody have of who shot him? There's no cameras. We know what day we know what day mr What are they a police report of a dead body at a traffic? No, the guy is a dead body in a time where there's so much violence in New York and so much more murder than there is Right now the 70s were not a great time in New York There may have been a dead body that was shot in the head they don't have but they don't know who did it right. I still I still have trouble believing that a man can walk

up to a man in broad daylight in New York City in 1975 and kill them silently and efficiently with two knife strikes and just keep those that was at night those were at night doesn't matter the shot in the car I think was during the day I think. Shot in the car, I think was during the day. I think. Shot in the car is out of the question. The shot of the car, I would kill it myself if I was a mob boss immediately. If I found out that anybody did that, I would never hire him again for any reason.

Yeah. Again, hold onto that. You are not wrong to doubt it, but I also would hesitate from saying, telling yourself everything he's saying is a lie. I don't think everything. I think there's enough evidence out there. And I've seen enough documentaries about this man.

I think there's like actually like five about this guy where. Yeah, yeah, there may be more to. But like for sure, five, maybe six. But like, I believe he got put away. A a lot of people I believe there's also weirdness In how he died and stuff. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. I it's just like But you just feel like you're all entirely correctly like how is he doing this and also the mobs like yeah, he's the guy Yeah, like it makes no sense But you know approaching this from the narrative that is mostly around this man, this is what

is believed or at least this is the story that is told. Again, the reasons he didn't drink on a job, didn't talk too much, didn't make many messes. Jesse, when you're like, unless requested, it's like if they were like, I want him to suffer, like I wanted to suffer before he dies. So I get it. I just it's a weird thing to be like, we requested extra mess. Yeah. And he quickly learned that blood was kind of the primary constant concern and he preferred methods that minimized it because it was messy. It left a lot of evidence blood was a problem. Every murder. Okay, never, never.

Get to every murder. Okay, nevermind, nevermind. I'll get to it in a week. Well, remember what happened last week, so much so that he learned the best way if he's gonna kill somebody with a melee, like a knife or whatever, was to use the knife in the back of the head and slip it into the brain for minimal mess

if he was having to do it that way. Or a 22 caliber bullet, which he knew had a tendency to bounce around inside the skull, causing massive untraceable damage. I know all about that. Trust me. Yeah.

So like, you know, he, he'd be used methods that would be, you know, there's no way. I don't think there's a way to get around making a mess murdering somebody unless you can maybe trick them into eating poison. But if you, if your mom was like, I want you to shoot this guy or want you to stab this guy and you need to do that without making a mess, I guess like you need to figure that out. That was his big concern in a lot of his interviews was just like, Hey, I make sure like, you have a lot of evidence. Couldn't have a little big like blood everywhere.

And if the job called for suffering or silence or surgical disappearance, he did it without question without moral. So what did he do? He like walk around with like a tarp and like put it over a guy and then like shoot him and then like if yeah, if that's what it was called like picking up like like a shit out of the carpet like a lot of it is like, you know, somebody's driving we're picking him up. He's sitting in the back and they're going somewhere being as they're on their way he like stabs in the back of the skull without them knowing it's coming kind of thing. And then they were done because the car is technically driving to where they're gonna drop the body off anyway. You got a mob guy driving, he's gonna do the killing, guy gets in the side seat, comes around the side,

ice pick was one of the tools they'd use, his knife, that kind of thing. And yeah, yeah, I know, yeah, exactly. All of a sudden you're like, and it's real. It feels real again. He would later tell the author, uh, quote, I feel nothing inside of, or any of them, we said this last week, nothing. They had it coming and I did it.

The only people ever had any kind of real feelings for were my family. Those others, nothing. Um, yeah, his foreign, like, I don't know if he's even felt anything for his family, other than people he could control and dominate over His formal entry into the world of professional organized killing according to his accounts was significantly shaped by his association with Carmine Meatball Genovese remember meatball Meatball meatball Genovese. That's outrageous dude. He was a made man of the Decavacante family That's outrageous dude. He was a made man of the Decavacante family

Was known for was known less for his high rank and more for his extensive network and ability to get things done The man was the man who knew people you want what family the Decavacante family I think I'm a content. Okay. I thought you said the Capacola family and I was no no no fuck off Don't you want to gabagool into the? Yeah, that's literally what I thought you said I gotta ask my my my mob I'm like a majority Italian like 50 60 percent Italian and I know and I gotta ask my mom But I have family and connect in Italy mob and mafia that still alive still exists They're like third cousins, fourth cousins.

Like Cosa Nostra? I don't know. I don't know if it's like, I don't know. I don't fully know. I just know that's, I've known in my own whole life. I have been told my whole life if things get bad, I got told by my grandmother before she died, like years ago when I was a teenager,

if things ever, ever got bad and you need to leave, you can go to Italy, you could find them and they would take care of you. Is this? I don't know what that means. I am. I love that. I am so curious because I, and I believe this fundamentally to my core that much like guys

who claim they've seen UFOs. Sure. One in the same. Look, you're looking at it. On my best, on my best day. I'll give it a 1%. I feel that the same way with people who say I have a relative who's in the Italian mob. Oh, every time they're like, yeah, my grandmother told me I'm like, grandma just telling you stuff. That's like every American who's like, I need to let me,

let me text my mom right now. And Ed Dean can edit this. Every single American person wants to say I am from a European country. And they just say- Well, my grandmother literally came over from Italy when she was four years old. Well, not at all. Not every American person. My grandmother that came from Italy

at 12 years old in 1914, like she's straight from Italy. I'm not contesting your, your familial line. I'm in a very similar boat. Almost down to the year. My family came from probably like just across the water from Italy and Croatia, but I would never say I am a Croatian person. I have Croatian blood. I'm an American person. Oh, for sure. I mean, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm American who is Irish and Italian. I just American people love to be like,

I'm Italian. And it's like, Oh yeah, absolutely. My family is guilty of that. My family cheers for the Italian team in the soup in the, I was going to say in the Superbowl, which emphasizes what I'm saying, but the world cup, and we like did a thing and we're like, not even from Italy. Yeah, I've never been to Italy in my life. I'm not Italian in that way. I grew up eating Italian food That's it. Who did it? So we'll see. Yeah, anyway, here we go. We'll see if I ever get an answer for that, but that's that is I'm so interested Yeah, it's it's it's something I never really even thought about too much So yeah, he's working with meatball meatball was a made man of the decavo Conte family Got the guy who knew people if you wanted something done, you didn't go to Meatball to get it done.

You went to Meatball to get somebody he knew that could get it done. Meatball, he's a fixer. Yeah, he's got his meat in a lot of different pies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got a lot of Meatballs in different sauces. Yeah. He had heard the street talk of Kuklinski,

this big Polish guy who'd inflinched and talk and never ever left a loose end and after Kuklinski And his coming up roses gang if you remember each tattooed with that a scroll Coming up roses on the palm of their life and the coming up roses gang where they had the chance to make a logo And they just made it a picture of paper that had words on it. Yeah Point they like people gonna want to know who we are, write it down. Yeah, that's that's like the that's like they have what's the what are we what's the thing that we always say you have you can't see the apple. That's what that's what they whoever made the

logo Fantasia. Yeah, whoever made the logo as a fantasy. They're like, well, it's a piece of paper that says the name of the thing. It makes it gets to the point. Who are you? Oh, it's written right there. Do you think they went to like an actual tattoo professional? You think they found somebody who did the tattoo cheap, like on the streets? You think there was a professional they went to to get a tattoo of a scroll? So can you put my gang's scroll on my lower back, please?

No left palm of his hand. Oh, my god. The palm of your hand is a weird place for any tattoo. That's whack dude. And I think I reversed this part of the timeline last episode. Let me readjust. Before he had to kill the two dudes who robbed the gang member. Remember they did rob the card game. They first had a job where they were paid $500 each to go kill somebody.

That's where somebody froze up and then Richard Kuklinski grabbed the gun said, I'll do it. He killed him. They went back to meatball meatball gave him their money. He said, man, Richard cold like ice and another crew adding cold ice man. And then the person in his gang said, quote, cool. It's a fucking cucumber. Damn. Well, Luke, the ice man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, it's very, very cinematic, huh? You remind me of one of the founding members of Professor Xavier's X-Men. Uh, Kuklinski's association. That's when Beast was a fleshy looking dude. He was just a dude with big old parts.

Yeah, Kuklinski's association with Carmine meatball Genovese following that initial hit marked the escalation in his criminal endeavors and started propelling him from a just a street tough dude into a reliable if unorthodox asset for organized crime. I can't handle meatball Genovese. It sounds like fucking like a dish. Yeah yeah it, it does. It does. And it's kind of making me hungry. Meatball recognized Kuklinski's cold efficiency and his crew's weird capacity for violence. And so he began to channel a steady stream of lucrative but perilous work their way.

And in this period, as Kuklinski recounted, was defined by a rapid influx of what he called easy money and a corresponding immersion into a high risk, high reward lifestyle that Kuklinski seemed to embrace with a careless nonchalance in the way he speaks in the book. Genovese, with his extensive connections throughout New Jersey, became more of like a conduit for major scores for him. He provided Kuklinski's and his coming up roses crew with precise intelligence for sophisticated hijacking operations. This isn't like grabbing unattended cars.

He was more supplied than with like crucial details like specific trucks to get with their designated routes, the exact nature of the cargo, even the vehicle identification number sometimes, ensuring like a high probability of success and valuable plunder for the coming up roses gangs and under genovus meatballs direction, the crew successfully commandeered vehicles laden with like valuable goods. We're talking lists of things like appliances, jewelry, clothing, albums, razor blades, furniture, tools and machinery, even fancy foods like steak and loads of caviar.

Anything that could be turned into hard cash really quickly was what they were taking and they would get paid well for it. The financial arrangement was standard for this kind of underworld operating enterprise where Carmine received a hefty 50% cut of all proceeds with Kuklinski and his gang dividing the remaining half amongst themselves. So whoever gave him got half, they got the other half. And this for them though, like 50-50 split. Do you remember becoming a YouTuber for the very first time? I remember my 60-40 split and being like,

Oh, you had 60-40? I had 60-40. I had 70-30, baby. Oh, shut up. No, I was part of a, I was part of Maker's like farming team, you had 60 40. I had 70 30 baby. Oh, no, no, I was part of, uh, I was part of maker's like farming team RPM where they had like all any, any YouTuber they could grab. But like when you go away from making nothing for doing something that you enjoy for Kuklinski it's murder. Uh, but then you go making something, even if it's 50 50 or 60 40, it feels like an enormous upgrade and like an enormous amount of money

For him, this was a huge chunk of income it allowed him to experience a level of financial comfort and indulgence this man had never known growing up poor and Abused and it was a stark contrast to his impoverished upbringing He described this phase of his life with a phrase saying he was, um, N word rich to show how racist the man was as well. Uh, this is like a term that he used, like, like accumulation of wealth. It's extremely racist. All of its connotations.

That is how he described himself. The money earned through violence and theft was spent as quickly and as recklessly as it was made. He was a gambling addict. Surprise, uh, which became a huge strain on all of his money and a vice that would literally just shadow him throughout his entire life. Again, the riskiest possible behavior I can think of is gambling with large amounts of money. Yeah, no shit. Like good God. Uh, he would, uh,

and a lot of his like retellings and interviews, he recounted like lavish trips to Las Vegas, sometimes just by himself. Uh, other times accompanied by his then live in girlfriend Linda. And there he would immerse himself in the high roller lifestyle. He would indulge in high States backer at, which I don't really know what that is. Uh, what's backer at is that like a rat is like one of the like casino games from like? like time in memorial like I don't Played a slot machine. It's like there's a player and there's a banker you try to get to nine

It's the one with the paddle where they like pull the you know, I have no idea. I only know it from bond movies. Yeah. It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They have the like, yeah, he's living a bond villain esque life in his mind. Um, going here, doing this, but unfortunately, unlike bond villains, he would, instead of winning all the time, he won rarely, but mostly just lost everything constantly. And obviously when you're in Vegas, he was watching the extravagant shows. He loved Liberace with like, it was like one of his favorite shows to go see was Liberace. Yeah, it was one of his favorite things to go see.

It became one of his favorite entertainers. Is he like, does he have a soul? Is he like, I love Star Wars. I love the Godfather. I love the Eagles. I I love we did have a guy who loves Star Wars so much. He liked the like, he didn't like Star Wars. The film Yeah, like, they're not think, dude, they're definitely multi layered people. They're just dude, cuckoo bananas. Like, not even let me not to get political. But even Trump, our

president is a secret spicy little boy who loves musicals. He loves like Phantom of the Opera and some of the he loves. Trump loves Phantom of the Opera. Yes, yes. He's like a spicy theater boy who didn't get the love he needed or a hug from anybody. Like, been raised by like the worst possible people. There was an artist, not a good one, but like an artist, people, people have layers and you know, like, like Shrek, like a lot of, sometimes those layers stink. This is what it is. Maybe I am a serial killer. For him, when he, you talked about this period in his interview with Carlo, he said, I believe

this because it makes sense coming from who he is. I had no idea what money was and I spent it like water. I should have been investing it, buying property and all I did was throw it away. Oh, he's a millennial. I was going to say. He loved his avocado toast. Dude, it's like going from poor to having money is like a shock. And I feel like people who go from that, nevermind the serial killing aspect, usually go in one

of two ways. They go massive spending spree. How many OG YouTubers did we see like descend after their relevancy never kind of kept up and they descended into like, you know, working normal lives again because they didn't invest it and those who took the money and then was so worried to spend it just invested it all instead. Like it feels like those are the the money and then was so worried to spend it, just invested it all instead. Like it feels like those are the two paths that happen when somebody who's never had money suddenly gets an influx of money. Um,

and so he took the opposite path, go spend it and, uh, live rich. His spending wasn't limited to casinos. He just also developed a pension for like, as a lot of people who want to be in the mob do just like this ostentatious clothing with like garish expensive flamboyant suits like bright yellows pinks his wardrobe was very just like striking to look at and Keep in mind you combine that with this towering height of like six foot six and his broad shoulders and immense size and

Visible cold as I visible man wearing the loudest clothes nose. Not even a sound. No one knew he was there Yeah, but when you write yellow shirt, yeah Exactly And this is like, you know, this is the stuff he started wearing to where he was all the time Anyway, the Hoboken and Jersey City smokey smoke filled bars It's like going getting lemon pepper wings all the time. Drinking beers. He's dressed in like gaudy fucking suits and that are like tailored to him and shit.

Oh my god, dude. One of the more profitable but more I would say audacious operations are orchestrated by Meatball for Kuklinski crew was like a very meticulously planned robbery of an armored truck company in Northburg in New Jersey Because this was like far from the simple stick up or other things that they've been getting so far He provided them he provided them with the alarm codes The locking system of the company's red brick warehouse to create a diversion and make the crime appear as something other than an inside job the crews first broke a hole in one of the warehouse walls, then they proceeded to blow

open the main safe and began loading an armored truck with an immense haul of cash, coins, gold, bullion, and their initial take was so substantial, estimated at $2 million worth of currency and gold, that they overloaded the first armored truck. And as they attempted to drive it out of the depot, the excessive weight caused its rear tires to blow out upon hitting a curb and in a display of like just pure confidence under pressure, they were forced to just quickly transfer the massive loot into two additional armored trucks commandeered from the same depot.

This risky transfer was completed hastily on the side of a road near the turnpike before they made their final escape. Carmine as per their agreement took half of the spoils leaving Kuklinski and his four other crew members to divide the remaining $1 million at a staggering $200,000 each. That's got to be over. 10 million dollars today. Absolutely. As you said, it's two million dollars, two million, then split in half, one million divided by five,

200 grand each. It's like 10 to 15 million dollars, something like that. 1970s, like say 1973 money, five money maybe. Yeah, something like that. I bet you it's like that. Like that's an insane amount of money to split. Anybody else? This would be it, dude. You'd be made. You're done. I would be out. Yeah, I that. I bet you it's like that like that's an insane amount of money to split anybody else This would be it dude. You'd be made you done. You could be out

Yeah, yeah for him though like all previous other windfalls of money He'd gotten was rapidly lost primarily on gambling and maintaining that Extravagant extra high-flying lifestyle, but I would say it was mostly the gambling at that point Other than just the lucrative hijacking hijackings meat Meatball also began to entrust Kuklinski with more specialized and sinister tasks as time went on. This is where contract killings that often required not just clean elimination, but sometimes the deliberate infliction of suffering or ensuring a body would vanish without a trace for one such particularly gruesome job. The explicit instruction was that the Mark had to suffer intensely before dying and then the body had to disappear.

And Meatball offered to double Kuklinski's usual payment for this one. The target was a used car salesman from Newark who had, according to the Genovese family, grievously, grievously disrespected a friend's wife. So Kuklinski recounted to Carlo, the author, how he abducted the salesman, subjected him to torture and then, to a testament to the completed contract and the suffering

inflicted, delivered the man severed head in a plastic bag to a supposedly delighted Mr. Meatball. Hey, what's the best way to save your dad jokes for later? In a database. Nice, nice. Yeah, that's a good time for that. Actually, good time. I was waiting to just get it in the chamber and then break it out before anybody noticed what happened. Yeah, it did take me a second. I had to register.

What? Why did you? Meatballpaw, in seeing the severed head, apparently said, you son of a bitch, beautiful. You did good son of a bitch. You did good. And promptly paid him $10,000 cash for the job. That's a million bucks. Like a hundred thousand dollars. Not a million.

Something like that more than like this act more than any other, I think during this period of his activity, this is like what supposedly solidified Kuklinski's reputation within the Genovese circle. And now was becoming more aware in wider mob circles as a man who's uniquely capable of handling the depraved demanded, demanding assignments with an unmatched terrifying proficiency. And this story, if you remember, Tommy Patera is similar in the path

that Tommy Patera kind of followed in how he got it got known before he got became known for what he was good at and started working for multiple families, being very good at killing people. And the life Kuklinski described during his association with the, with Genevieve was one of just calculated violence that was sudden that was paired with sudden and immense wealth, reckless almost nihilistic expenditure in a volatile existence lived on the blood soaked fringes of organized crime. And I just attribute that quote to Philip Carlo because I just beautifully written. And this is where is singular capacity for ruthlessness made him an

increasingly valuable asset, if not profoundly dangerous to the mob. He was now he's also fast learning to navigate the kind of currents of this underworld as well. Understanding that delivering results, especially in matters of extreme violence and intimidation was the surest path to continued employment and the kind of fearful respect that money alone couldn't buy in these like brutal criminal circles. And over time, the jobs became more specialized, the requests even more sadistic. Meatball began to see Kuklinski as a unique tool now, not just for clean removals, but

for inflicting punishments or sending brutal messages. For one victim, the Nutley victim, which was another early contractor acquiring extreme suffering, Kuklinski abducted the man in broad daylight. He employed a method that he would perfect over the years, posing as a motorist in distress, as we know, I mean, Ted Bundy did this, his car hood and trunk conspicuously open.

And when the unsuspecting Mark rolled down his window to offer assistance, Kuklinski swiftly shoved a 357 Magnum to his head and forced him into the trunk of the car. Duct tape over the mouth, hands cuffed, and he was then transported alive and terrified to a remote cave in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Now this is a story that's well known if you are remotely familiar with

Richard Kuklinski at all, because this cave was no ordinary cave. Kuklinski, according to him, had stumbled upon it years earlier during a hunting trip after shooting a massive brown rat. Drawn by the scent of decay and the sight of numerous rat droppings, Kuklinski had found what he says was a narrow entrance at the base of a granite slope and followed it inward. What he discovered was a dark, foul, rat-infested warren littered with droppings and chewed bones – a natural churnal house, he said, deep in the Bucks County woods. The first time he saw it, he immediately recognized its potential for disposing of bodies. Later, he confirmed its grisly utility.

He returned alone and left two pounds of ground chuck at the cave's mouth, and when he came back the next day, the meat was gone. Kuklinski was methodical. A scientist of death member laboratory of murder, he called it. So he wondered if the rats, emboldened and numerous, would actually consume a human being. So he decided to make them unwitting accomplices in torture and murder, according to Kuklinski. He didn't have to imagine their capabilities for very long if the story is true. The victim from Nutley was handled with this gruesome innovation in mind.

Abducted in broad daylight, gagged with industrial duct tape, and again bound at the hands and feet, he was then stripped of his clothes and left tied to the rear of the cave. Kuklinski, pretending to be a murder documentarian, I guess, of his own work, used a motion-activated light and camera setup, allowing him to capture every horrifying frame without actually being present. He described in the interview how the rats approached slowly at first, sniffing, circling the helpless man, then drawn by the scent of blood. It's important to point out that Kuklinski often made small cuts on the victims to try and attract them. The rats then began to bite and he said, quote, first his ears, then his eyes. Kuklinski then recounted before they swarmed, consuming the man alive slowly.

Kuklinski retrieved the videotape and sat with the client to watch this footage and he claimed the man was stunned, quote, overjoyed, yet slightly appalled and he claimed the man was stunned quote overjoyed yet slightly appalled and handed over the full $20,000 10 for the contract and an additional 10 for the incredible suffering inflicted hey what do you call a French man wearing sandals Philippe fell up so stupid I don't even know what that means. Philippe fuck you. You know what? No, that sucks that. I hate that. I hate that. I hate that more than hearing the story of this guy who was brutally eaten by

rats. That's how much I hate the part over the course of hours, alive screaming, well trying to scream, but taking his mouth taped shut, you know, uh, the client then apparently said he did a good job, real good. And that job did more than add to Kuklinski's bank account. It really kind of just like sharpened his approach and cemented his reputation for handling. Now what he called special requests. Around this time is association with Robert Prong gay it's like only fans vibes yeah yeah yeah underwear home with them fucking video

kuklinski only fans special requests section this one's for you David boom like fucking awful, dude. Around this time, Kukulinski's associate... Dude, oh man, now I just want like, I write a skit about like a serial killer's OnlyFans. That's just like, pay off. It's done, you can't do more than one joke. That's the whole joke.

But you gotta film it, it's like 60 seconds. Divine, yeah. Then you hear like police sirens outside. Around this time, his association with Robert Prongay, who was kind of a hit man of his own repute, known as his nickname was Mr. Softie. That's weirdly like on theme. Okay, because first of all, Mr. Softie's ice cream if you're not from the East Coast. Right. And that is how he gets his name. Yeah. But it's funny because he's like Iceman and he's Mr. Mr. Softie. And that's like vaguely in the same theme. Yeah, sure.

Like both ice guys. That's because they were so cool. Ice boys. Yeah. Robert from gay was like somebody who would become a an association. And then very quickly kind of became a friend and then more like a weird, evil mentor to Kuklinski and like a weird partnership of, of broken minds because Pronga was a former special forces demolitions expert who used a Mr. Softy ice cream truck as a cover for his surveillance and murder for higher activities, and became a very steady source for Kuklinski's high-grade cyanide and other, like, more exotic killing tools. Prongay loved cyanide, and Kuklinski grew to love cyanide as well.

Their paths initially crossed by sheer coincidence at a Marriott Hotel in Queens, where both men were, were both men unbeknownst to each other, were both there stalking separate marks. They were both in the same hotel. Oh my God, really? Oh, Iceman?

What are you doing here, bitch? What are you doing here, man? Who the fuck are you? Mr. Softy, I've heard so much about you. Oh, you're the fucking ice cream guy, right? You're the fucking ice cream guy. Oh, fuck. Are you Mr. Softy? I've heard so much about you. Oh, you're the fucking ice cream guy, right? Because the comedy version of this is They both show up and just like you know, we went on a date with the same girl kind of vibe But it's like we're both have to kill him. Well, I got it. No, I have to do the hit dude and that's

This is this is literally a Sandman issue. This is like literally, I was just about to say. Yeah. So they were after separate people and they saw each other and you're not even fucking wrong. When they saw each other, he knew Kuklinski and had heard about the Rat Cave method and loved it. He was super entertained by it. He's like, you're the ice cream guy.

He's like, are you Rat Cave? Oh, bam, bam, bam. super interesting. You're the ice cream guy. He's like, are you Rat Kid? And so during the talks, they started sharing their own deadly innovations of like how they would kill people for a little bit. Prongay would show Richard how to wire a hand grenade for remote detonation, a device he would typically place under the driver's seat of a target's car allowing for a kill with a wide destructive radius from a very safe distance. They exchanged other methods which was significant, was like a mutual education in a homicide. Prongay taught Kuklinski the subtleties of administering poisons quietly and effectively. He explained absorption rates, volatile chemical reactions, and how to disguise delivery methods and drinks, food,

and even via a cyanide spray using DMSO, which is dimethyl sulfoxide as a rapid rapidly absorbing solvent. A technique Prongay gruesomely demonstrated by killing a stray cat with a quick spray to its face. The two men both psychopaths with a flare for the theatrics and their killings, spoke frequently about refining their craft, each feeding off the other's weird lack of conscience.

Kuklinski accompanied Prongay on a hit in Connecticut where Prongay successfully used the cyanide spray on the mark, and Kuklinski in turn took Prongay to witness another rat cave execution that he wanted to see so much. Why am I picturing this like, into the fire, taking it higher and higher? Like doing like fucking montage shit, he's like pouring the poison, he's like no bitch pour it like this! And it's like...

Every once in a while is it cut to the both of them just walking with an ice cream. They're eating and is like like the hearts flowering They're like running in their basketball jersey. They like run over and kill somebody like it like feels like that What you're telling me they like they like wrap their arms and they share ice creams with each other like one magical summer together learning how to kill the lost weekend Apparently after watching the videotape of the execution prongay just said and like you just like sat back Impressed and said what a great fucking idea What a great fucking idea. Sickos! They're Batman villains. What are we talking about here? Hey, you remember when we were out there working on that thing with the Joker? Yeah, that guy was crazy, huh? Oh, yeah

Hey, what are you gonna do if you ever see the bat? I don't know. He's a, I don't, I'm not, I don't think he's real. It's genuinely insane and crazy, but at the same time, it's almost like if you just meet another person who streams Dr. Who, you're curious about their process. Yeah. It's just like inside baseball constantly, which makes it kind of feel like it's a little real like maybe that you know Like honestly, this is the one thing I genuinely believe because it's like What you take them out to the rats? Yeah. Yeah, you want to see you want to show me? Yeah And they just go out to the rat cave Who can he share this with even his own?

Like this kind of thing? People won't understand. And he found the one guy who would. Are you going to fucking kill me? Yeah, you got me. Hey, I was going to fucking kill you too. Yeah. My just update. My mom's like remembers the names of the people, but she has to when she gets home, she's going to look up the last name because she doesn't care.

Remember the last name of the top of her head, but she has birth certificates at home. She's gonna look up the last name because she doesn't care under the last name on the top of her head But she has birth certificates at home. She's like Find out yeah Yeah, but like it's like it's like finding somebody can finally Understands you in your weird fucked up twisted way. What is your math is meatball Genovese in real life? That would who do I get who am I in the connections of though if I'm a meatball and I got connections to everything Who am I connected with of though? If I'm a meatball and I got connections to everything, who am I connected with? I don't know. I'm just saying what if your mom hits you back

and she's like, your grandfather is meatball Genovese. I will. I don't. This will all be edited out. And the only thing left will be a hint that something weird. Now Prongay and Kuklinski are kind of like toodling each other.

Is that a word? Toodling? Toodling? Toodling? Toodling? Toodling? Toodling? Toodling? Toodling is not the word toodling. They're toodling each other, man. Teaching, learning. You know what?

I don't even involve this anymore. They're gonna come for you. You said we was toodling each other? These two hit me so dangerous. We're in the woods toodling each other at the rat check. Unlike Tommy Petera, Iceman's dead, so we don't have to worry about him coming back. Yeah, Iceman probably, like, what about the other guys? He dead? What about Meatball? What about Mr.

Safty? I don't want to be involved. He's going to be Mr. Angry. That's what he's going to be. Prongay and Kukulinski were teaching each other, supplying each other, and Kukulinski began to incorporate poisons into his repertoire. Always keeping cyanide on him now from this point on. He had it in vials. He had it specially prepared injectors for him, used it on jobs that required subtlety speed or the appearance of a natural death. That's the other thing too. If this is true and how he killed people, how would anybody know?

Is it possible if he's killing people with cyanide in a way that you spray them, it's absorbed through the skin, all these things. Would it be possible to detect that in this time in the seventies in an autopsy? Because I don't actually like the evidence is like, does that leave evidence? Does cyanide poisoning? You would like it's not evidence leave. A lot. I'm my my poor, my the I'm not doing the evidence. I'm not doing this to get caught.

I don't think, I don't think this is one of those things where like in the movies were like, it's undetectable. No one will ever know. I feel like cyanide, you would know if it was in the system of a person who was killed with it, right? I'm saying like there are still ways to detect it Okay Yes, it's a force more. It's a post-mortem post-mortem blood samples can lose significant amount of cyanide concentration within 24 hours

It's not that it's not impossible to detect it, but it becomes very difficult to detect it after 24 hours. That's fucking crazy This is like this thought this is the type of shit where I'm like, did we just tell a serial killer how to do it? Did we just share that we are the ones that have discovered cyanide is very discovered, but we did say it on this big podcast and now I say it I think it's you're still gonna get detected. I think maybe it's not 1975 don't agree. Don't don't I thought there's still ways like reading it. There says there's still ways now I'm talking about in the seventies specifically how like, what do you call it? Uh, what's the word?

You're like the technology at the time. How sophisticated is the word I'm talking about is the technology at the time. No idea to detect that because that's the timeframe we're really looking at this for. That's where we go to the, if you are a crime scientist or a scientist at all, please come to the Reddit and the crime assist. Please. I'm a bad guy. How did gmail.com also throw us an email if you know, like there's I would love to know the science that I don't know.

Yeah. While you're over there paying for Alex's new stairs, let us know what's going on. I didn't have to pay for those. I'm going to tell my fucking landlord. He owes me rent for canceling a week and a half of my work. Regardless, cyanide meant there was no blood, no noise, just a person that would collapse suddenly, often mid conversation or during a quiet stroll,

according to Kuklinski. He later claimed to Philip Carlo in the book that he would sometimes slip cyanide into hamburgers or sandwiches, sit across from his target in a diner, and casually watch them die while sipping his coffee. He said he employed this method precisely with a Genovese soldier by the name of Billy Mana in a Union City bar poisoning his drink with cyanide from a pinky-sized vial while

Mana was in the restroom. When he returned, finished his drink and collapsed, his death was attributed to a heart attack. And according to the author, Kuklinski also began to systemically free some of his victims, sometimes for months or even years, like one victim by the name of Louis Mazge, who was kept in an ice cold well for nearly two years,

to obscure the actual time of death. And this is what supposedly earned him his moniker, the Iceman from the, from other investigators. Because the Iceman nickname comes from investigators, as we'll learn later. He actually used, he utilized a horrifying like diverse arsenal. Now with that cyanide. We've talked about the ice picks through the ear or eyeball knives for swift throat cuts or precise stabs to the brain, tie irons, crossbows, and even

he'd burn people alive. He claimed to have burned one victim alive in a 55 gallon drum. Another was reportedly fed to rats while still alive. I think this a third additional one. Uh, he said he used hand grenades, strangled men with piano wire and crushed skulls with hammers. But many of these claims, particularly the more theatrical ones were, shall we say difficult for authorities to verify independently during his initial period of activity. Um, but the ones that could be corroborated

painted a, did paint a kind of like horrifying portrait of a uniquely versatile and remorses killer. And that's where the arguments of like, what's real and what isn't come from. He was definitely methodical, organized, and for a long time, obsessively careful. He developed a habit of never using the same weapon for more than one killing.

As soon as a gun was used, he disposed of it often by dropping it into a creek or river. He also claimed to sometimes use different caliber weapons on a single victim to create the illusion of multiple shooters, further confusing investigators. He also maintained a strict, but twisted professional code.

No women. No children He killed only men usually usually those involved in criminal dealings, though I don't you know with the way he taught or story or anybody who says shit to him on the street Yeah, according to according we gotta yeah, you have earned it. You know what i'm saying? Yeah Uh, the only exception to this rule was personal threats He said if someone endangered his family or directly gravely disrespected him, they became... You don't want to cut him off. You could not.

Yeah. Sure. Sure. There's a serial killer rationale right there. Then they became a fair game. He wants to beat a man senseless in a parking lot simply for hitting his own children, an act of absolute hypocrisy that just like was just clearly him finding an excuse to hit somebody.

He probably saw it and like got activated by his own trauma. Triggered absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and this supposed rigid personal rule, however perverse told him at least in his mind helped him stay detached and and providing a thin, if not porous boundary between the contract killer and an uncontrollable, indiscriminate psychopath. Though I would say there is none. It's the same thing.

There is no line there. As Kukulinski's name and his unique skillset became even more widely known in Mafia circles, he was eventually introduced to Roy DeMeo, a fearsome soldier in the Gambino crime family who ran one of the most notorious brutal murder operations in American history. DeMeo's crew, operating with insane chilling efficiency at Kindacu Klinsky out of the Gemini Lounge in Brooklyn, which is where Tommy Pita would go, specialized, this guy specialized in making bodies disappear,

often dismembering them in a back room dubbed the Slaughterhouse before disposing the pieces across the borough. Again, this name may sound familiar because he was a big name in the Tommy Pottera series as well. The initial encounter between Kuklinski and DeMeo was far from amicable as well. Kuklinski and DeMeo was far from amicable as well.

Kuklinski owed DeMeo's associates, Tony Agriela and Paul Rothenberg, a significant sum for pornographic films that he had taken on consignment. And when Kuklinski was slow to pay, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We'll get there again there. You had a porn debt? So what do you mean? Kuklinski ran an illegal- He filmed the porn or he just collected porn? He bought porn on consignment? Kuklinski ran a illegal porn selling operation. And so he would take and get stuff from others and sell it as the man who's selling it.

Yeah, like a pawn shop of porn. But they did the operation Like a Ponzi scheme. You have to buy your supply from them, sell your numbers off, and then you pay him back and keep the profit. But if he was selling porn and not, couldn't sell enough to pay him off, he was now in debt and also had porn that he couldn't sell. Because this is a 70s. This is different.

This alone is an argument to like add so much legal protection to the real porn industry. Yeah. This is crazy to me. But here's the other thing too is like whether you believe Kuklinski who did actually work as deeply in the mob family as he claims, he did sell porn in their territory. claims, he did sell porn in their territory. And that alone is usually unless you're working with or somehow in conjunction with those who definitely tied up at least in some way, you would get, you get sent a warning, you get sent out, you get killed depending on like how the fraction of it.

And it would, uh, and this is true. He did, we know for a fact he had a porn industry was selling within the territory of the mafia and he wasn't ever kicked out for it. There is evidence that he did at least come in contact with some of the mob with like a camera shot that we have in a couple of things. But like, this is part of it

that muddies the waters as well. And yeah, he owed people because that's how it works. If you're working in the mob and you're running a porn industry, you're going to get the supply. It's like drugs. Yeah. Exactly that. Yeah. So and Kuklinski was slow to pay and displayed what DeMaior perceived as a quote unquote bad attitude. DeMaior then accompanied by his cousin, Joe Gugliamo,

nicknamed Dracula. Fucking ridiculous. What did he do? He just drank blood? Then go into it. Or did he look like Nosferatu? Like he was really skinny? You know what he probably is?

I bet you he doesn't like garlic. Oh, that's good. Let's see. Do we have a Dracula was his cousin? Oh, and you just know. You like imagine the good fella scene where he's like you guys put too much garlic in the sauce And he's like, what are you? Dracula, what are you Dracula? It's like a Crazy I

Like I'll say I believe that that's the reason it happened. Um, yeah, his cousin was too weird. Otherwise now he's like, I drink. Dracula is a audacious nickname. I know that's like naming yourself like, like, um, the Batman who laughs. It's like a little too edgy. Yeah. Like a little too ledgy. Um, the, uh, so he was accompanied by three cousins that Dracula, then the other two didn't have nicknames, Anthony center and Joey Testa. The four of them moved and he confronted Kuklinski at a gorilla and Rothenberg's office.

De Mayo apparently pistol whipped Kuklinski severely and his crew joined in beating the shit out of Kuklinski. Uh, though Kuklinski was armed with a 38 derringer and wisely chose not to draw it against such overwhelming force, a decision that ironically earned Mayo's grudging respect later when he learned Kuklinski had been armed,

yet took the beating quote unquote, like a man. So he took his punishment like a man and then you know that was enough to give him his respect. But for Kuklinski... Nice stable, nice stable working relationship. Yeah well this for Kuklinski planted a seed that he never let go and that resentment sat in him forever, and he vowed to himself that he would one day kill DeMeo. Regardless, despite this brutal introduction. Because he borrowed, because he bought so much porn. And he owed him money and he never paid him back.

So it's like a completely legitimate gripe. He wasn't betrayed or sold out in any way. He just bought more porn than he could handle. And he couldn't pay him back. And now this guy, yeah. And now this guy is going to, he's going to kill a man over it. The idea of he bought more porn than he could handle is hilarious to me. Just there is layers of puns there that are just out of control. The more I think about it, the more like that's another good joke. That's also a good joke. What if the reason Kuklinski couldn't sell it all is because he was like the OG gooner. control. The more I think about it, the more like that's another good joke. That's also a good joke. To handle it.

What if the reason Kukulinski couldn't sell it all is because he was like the OG gooner. He wasn't selling, he was just using it. Yeah. I would have to imagine porn purchased through the mob by a guy selling it in a pyramid scheme. Isn't like what you go to the Cineplex to see. It wasn't like the things you think of in 1970s erotica. It was probably like, we filmed this. You know what I'm like doing the seventies, there were cinemas that you would go to sure to like, yes, full on goon. Yes. And, uh, but those were the ones that like you would see in like boogie nights. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like five folding

chairs in like a tile floor room with a projector and you pay five bucks to get in. Like that's a different beast compared to, I imagine this was like, when we, this is, this is probably not cool. You know what I mean? Like I don't know that the ladies involved really had much say in what was going on in these films. Here's a little, this is all from an article I just pulled up. It says, uh, members of the mafia had been making a modest income by producing stag films for at least 10 years, right.

Uh, up until 1971, when some some when associates of the Colombo organization, one of the five mafia families in New York City, hit the jackpot after producing an enormously successful X rated comedy film mostly in a motel in Biscayne Boulevard in North Miami. The movie costs less than twenty five thousand to produce. But within a couple of years, the mob had raked in a staggering $50 million in profit. Like a legit hit, like a major motion picture, like a nationwide release? No, because this would kick off the back and forth fight

between the FBI and the mob's porn industry. So it's not even, we're not even talking about bootlegs, we're talking about like, artisan illegal porn that the mafia was making. By the mid 80s, by the mid, whether I don't know if porn is legal or not, but right here says by the mid 80s, 85% of the porn industry was controlled by organized crime. I believe that for sure. Absolutely. You know, I would say that it might still be the same today. Just the actors have changed. That makes any sense? Like it isn't, it isn't the organized crime we're thinking

of. I'm thinking of like Russian Eastern European organized crime. I wonder what it was like in the seventies though. Like I think it would probably be more normal. Video is so devout today compared to where it was in the seventies. No, I would say if you want a real trip, go back and watch the like early, early cinema, erotic films. They are. I mean, like visually they look old, but hilariously it's still pretty raunchy

same stuff. Comparatively. Yeah. You're like, Oh no, tastes have not changed. We were always weird. Yeah. Like nobody's like, there's that though. But then there's also like a fucking snuff film, right?

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. By the way, the guy who stole my diary went missing. What? Yeah, my thoughts are with his family. Oh, yo, can we get back to the, can we get back to the murder rats? Can we get back to the murder rats? Because that was, that was less depressing than that joke. Beat the fuck out of Clint's. He's just staring at the camera and he only plays to people watching. Patreon treat for everybody. If you want to see video patreon.com, join us at the $20. Where you get video of everything we do. He vow yeah, he, uh, he vowed to kill DeMaius, but regardless, this abuse of introduction, uh, this started to form a twisted working

relationship between the two. DeMaius recognized Kuklinski's capacity for violence and his apparent fearlessness and decided to test him further. And now more infamous anecdote, we'll call it De DeMeo took Kuklinski for a ride in Manhattan. He supposedly handed him a.38 with a silencer, and DeMeo randomly pointed to an innocent man walking a dog and ordered Kuklinski to cap him. Without hesitation, Kuklinski calmly exited the car, walked up to the unsuspecting man,

shot him in the back of the head, and returned to the vehicle as if he had merely run an errand. Again, you're telling me that this happened and there's no, we're not going to see any evidence that the man was shot in the back of the head in New York City, no police report at all. We will talk about it. We will talk about what evidence is there. I'm not going to get there yet. We're going to get through the story first.

DeMaius was reportedly impressed at this declaring quote you're fucking cold like ice well done I'm gonna call you the Iceman after all those guys have been calling you the cool guy for all this time the cool guy so you're telling me all these people his whole life like cinematically are referring to him as like cold cool supposedly chill and then the FBI is like you know who you are? You're the Iceman. At least not up to this point.

You're the fucking Iceman. He's not Iceman yet up to this point. He's not Iceman, he's just Bobby still. This is the act that supposedly cemented Kuklinski's status as an asset to DeMeo. Now, whether this specific dramatic initiation happened exactly as Kukulinski described is, like many of the stories here, hard to confirm with absolute certainty.

But what it does align with is it aligns perfectly with DeMeo's known character and methods of operation. DeMeo was pathologically violent, cunningly smart, and a deeply paranoid man, and he ran one of the deadliest mafia crews in New York's history. This is not an argument. This is not to be argued. Bodies vanished from the Gemini lounge with an almost industrial efficiency. And the crew referred to the dispent memberment process clinically as just disassembling that was there in the word for it.

And according to law enforcement estimates, the Mayo's crew may have been responsible for over 200 murders. This is the Mayo's crew from the actual law enforcement people like real verified, real verifiable, because that's what I'm going to do. This is a time where organized crime dominate. How many people is he running this operation with? We don't have a specific number, but like at least five or six people. Including Tommy Karate? Well, Tommy Karate didn't, again, he worked with, he was more into, he was like Kuklinski. He's his own guy.

Karate kind of worked for multiple families, but he was actually part of the mob. Oh, so Tommy Karate, he was outs. People would outsource crime to him. And this guy was in and only did crimes for the family unless he just kind of wanted to. Yeah. He very much like Tommy Patera, DeMeo seemed to be a serial killer with the perfect job. He loved the violence. So he got his hands dirty all the time. He loved it. DeMeo was, had an intense paranoia, which meant he kept a very tight, trusted inner circle.

So the fact that Kuklinski, an outsider, was utilized by him at all, even if strictly off the books for very specific tasks, meant that he had proven himself in some way. By taking that beating with the 38 in his pocket. Yeah, like taking that beating literally for whatever reason was significant and left an impression and Kuklinski asserted that he became the Mayo's quote unquote secret weapon, the go-to man for hits that required absolute deniability or that needed to occur outside Gambino territory where De Mayo's crew might be recognized in that much as if you remember Tommy Patera is true.

Other crime families were not to encroach or hit on other crime families. If somebody, another family did something wrong, you go to the head of the other family first and you report it to them and allow the family to take care of it. Cause you don't want, if you take out another family member, another, another family member without approval, you immediately risk war between the two families. And that is a bad thing for the mafia. We've seen the Godfather.

Yeah. And it's all based on, you know, like this stuff, uh, and Kuklinski, so Kuklinski wasn't part of DeMeo's Gemini crew. Never, nevermind his non-Italian heritage, which precluded him from ever being a made man. We've seen good fellas. I have not seen any of those. Really?

Yes. Both fantastic films. I've heard. This status though, made him uniquely useful. He existed in the shadows as a nobody, a phantom killer that nobody could actually point to. He claimed it was DeMeo who ended up recognizing his utility and discretion, also would go on to connect him with other crime families, significantly expanding his workload across

all five boroughs and into New Jersey. And so Kuklinski claimed to have done dozens of jobs for DeMeo, though none were ever formally documented or directly linked by law enforcement during DeMeo's reign. So he wasn't so much DeMeo as he was the bread. Yeah, and it's not even, but there's like DeMeo in any, in the other issue is like, I got what you're saying. I'm just trying to move forward.

No, no, keep going, keep going. Let's move past it. Let's move past it. I got the joke. The thing is, is like in a lot of DeMeo's interviews and like what we know about him with others, Kuklinski is, he never brings up Kuklinski. He doesn't even like mention as ever known.

And the question is, is it because he never had anything to do with it? And they're all denying it because of that. He literally was very minimally involved. Do you think he's the best? Or Kuklinski was not tied. And then if they admit that yes, the Kukulinski did these things,

then they immediately implicate DeMeo and other people which could have gotten them prison time or something. I don't know. It feels to me more like DeMeo maybe was less involved in Kukulinski's life than Kukulinski let on. But as we go and talk about it, maybe that'll make, you know, you'll feel similarly. He referred to another very violent episode

that was supposed to illustrate his association involved a trip to Harlem, his association with DeMeo. And it involved a trip to Harlem. DeMeo dispatched Kuklinski with his crew member, Freddie DeNome, and an associate from the Westies gang, Eddie Mack, to collect a debt from a black bar owner. When Mack entered the bar alone and was subsequently shot, Richard and Denomay and Mack returned to the West side, armed themselves heavily, and Richard choosing a street sweeper shotgun, while Denomé and Mack grabbed Mach 10 machine pistols,

they drove back to Harlem. Richard was the first through the door, unleashing a barrage from the shotgun, with the others firing their automatic weapons, effectively blowing the entire bar apart and killing several people inside. DeMaius was reportedly pleased with his brutal efficiency, further solidifying the value of Kuklinski and giving him even more jobs. Another incident Kuklinski recounted involved a fishing trip with DeMeo and his core crew, namely Chris Goldberg, Joey Testa, Anthony Center, and Joe Dracula.

These boys hanging out on the river with Dracula. Yeah, that's it. Boys and Dracula going fishing. Dracula on the ice man hanging out on the river with Dracula. Yeah, that's it. Boys and Dracula going fishing. Dracula on the ice man hanging out and out on Dimaeus boat in the Atlantic. A man named nothing other than Bob suspected of being an informant to the cops was confronted by Dimaeus shot in the face and then thrown overboard. Still alive. The crew, including Kuklinski, watched then, as sharks, attracted by the blood, converged

and then devoured the man who, according to Kuklinski, screamed until he was like until the last moment and then dragged under the water. Oh, that reminds me. Why couldn't the produce manager make it to work on time? The answer is he could drive, but he did an avocado. That's so sad. God. I had to think about that one. I don't know why I just did. I hate it. Kuklinski just described the scene with a detached amusement, noting that DeMeo and his men found it entertaining, great fun, better than any Broadway show. Despite this claimed collaboration and mutual utility,

Kuklinski also still contained and harbored that deep-seated fear and resentment of De Meo ever since that time he was beat the fuck up. He respected De Meo at this point, respected his capacity for violence and his criminal acumen, but he knew men like Roy didn't leave loose ends. The initial beating De Meo had given him and a later incident where De Meo in a fit of paranoia

or maybe another test, pointed a cocked Uzi machine gun at Richard's chest in the Gemini Lounge while his crew stood by and this incident festered in Kuklinski's mind and continued to fuel his desire for revenge. He basically pointed the gun at him and wasn't sure if he was a rat or not. Can he be trusted or not threatened to kill him,

didn't kill him, laughed it off like they, you know, a crying movie would. Right. And later as DeMeo's own criminal empire began to implode around him under intense internal pressure and relentless FBI scrutiny, DeMeo himself became a massive liability

to the Gambino family. And so, Kuklinski claimed to have distanced himself after he started spiraling, and he always insisted to the interviewer that if he had ever felt DeMeo was going to come for him, he would have struck first. And ultimately, DeMeo, increasingly erratic and paranoid, was found murdered in January of 1983, shot multiple times in the head, and stuffed in the trunk of his Cadillac. Kuklinski, in his interviews with the author,

took credit for DeMeo's murder, describing it as a preemptive strike and an act of long, simmering revenge that he carried out after DeMeo seemed to be cracking under pressure and potentially becoming an informant himself He just went and killed him Yeah, he said this is the time because he was spiraling the families where he was very clearly losing things

He was very he was under investigation by the FBI. This was the time to kill him I just feel like if you're gonna kill like the highest ranking assassin in the mafia You can't just fucking go do that. I can't. I mean, I can, there's, there's rules. And if you, if it's, if all the bosses agree, I guess then like you can. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting to me, like how Tommy karate was like a Jedi

compared to this guy. Like, oh yeah. Like, let's not say, let's not say it. Let's not say a Jedi, but like a a monk like he was like a like he had a code that he followed that was like like not just no women no children but like if somebody asks me to do something I'm going to do it and like you know carry it out and anybody anything that happens to me as a result of like the rules of of the game that's fair play you You know, like, I feel like this guy's not thinking like that. There's a broken principle that he followed

that Kuklinski pretends to have. Yeah, but it feels like he just gets revenge and is impetuous and is impulsive. Yeah. A whiny child. They're working, their relationship between DeMeo and Kuklinski was purely working. And if Kuklinski's accounts are to be believed, had always been purely transactional, that he was never part of his

crew, that he was the ghost they hired when things got too hot or too complicated, which is why Dumeo would never mention him. And at home, in a quiet suburb of Dumont, New Jersey, Kuklinski was still trying to meticulously cultivate an entirely different, almost antithetical image of who he was. He lived with his wife Barbara and their three children, Merrick, Kristin, and Duane, in a split-level house on a peaceful tree-lined street, and from the outside, their life appeared fine.

Epitome of suburban normalcy, I guess. Neighbors saw him taking out trash, mowing the lawn, attending Sunday Masses, where he even served as an usher in volunteering to coach his daughter's softball team. To most observers, this dude was a big quiet guy who kept to himself with a devoted family and seemingly deep pockets and a reserved, almost shy demeanor. But obviously we all know inside the walls of the Kuklinski home, the reality was starkly terrifyingly different. He was a brooding shadow, a volatile storm

that would just snap at any instant. And while he never laid a hand on his children in anger, a ruling adhered to with honestly a strange principality, like a principle to it, he didn't do it. The atmosphere within the house was still perpetually thick with fear. Everybody was just on edge at all times. His daughters, Merrick and Chris, vividly remembered how their mother, Barbara,

would anxiously watch the door every day around five o'clock. Her body would tense, freezing when she heard the sound of his car pulling into the driveway. The shift in the air was always immediate, always palpable. And Barbara herself later recounted that the entire emotional climate of the house would change in mere seconds. If he walked in smiling, it might be a peaceful evening.

If he didn't, the smallest, most insignificant misstep, a cluttered room, dinner being served too late, a perceived wrong tone and conversation, whatever could, would, and could send him into a terrifying, just angry, physically destructive rage. He would break furniture, smash, cherish possessions, even in a single, in one instance that they recounted care, newly installed kitchen cabinets directly off the wall and hurled them to the sink. Uh, hurled the, uh, the sink hurled the sink through a window.

He pulled the sink out. That's just asinine at that point. Yeah, it's just pure toddler level violence in the form of a six foot whatever humongous violent man. Yeah guys, I don't think this is a good person. Whoa, fuck. I'm just getting that impression. Hold on. Oh, the man who was friends with

meatball and Mr. Softy? I just, yeah, something about Mr. Softy and Dracula's friend Iceman. That's yeah, I know. I know. It seems crazy. But let's keep reading because maybe he's just maybe he just is like actually a good guy. Oh, that would be crazy. I, you know what? I'm not going to bet on that. Oh, actually over here. Uh, there was actually, uh, there was rarely a discernible warning, just a sound, a weird clicking out of the sound of his mouth would mean he's going to get violence. Oh yeah.

He's not a good guy. Huh? No, no, that the clicking of his mouth still very much prevalent. And obviously Barbara bore the brunt of his explosive temper and his need for complete control in the home. He beat her, he systematically dominated her, eroding all autonomy she had. She had no independent access to money unless he doled it out to her directly. She couldn't drive the car anywhere without his explicit permission and an interrogation

about her destination and purpose. He would track her grocery receipts demanding explanation for any perceived discrepancies, which is rich coming from the men who gambled their money away every opportunity. Uh, if she came five, she came back $5 short, there would be severe consequences if she seemed too quiet or withdrawn, he'd accuse her of hiding something, his paranoia just constantly flaring. She lived in a state of constant preemptive hypervigilance. Her day spent just constantly calculating how to avoid triggering his next violent eruption and amidst the reign of terror, there were weird,

and this is where a lot of abuse in like where it feels like coming trapped comes from weird moments of, I will say, perceived tenderness of what she called quote unquote the good Richard. He would surprise her with expensive perfume, lavish jewelry, or maybe a favorite bottle of a Monterey of a Monterey wine. He nicknamed her lady and would sometimes arrange for Kenny Rogers songs of the same name to be playing when they entered their favorite restaurants, a table adorned with fresh red roses already waiting.

And sometimes after a very violent or vicious outburst, he would then break down, cry, and beg her forgiveness or in a weird, bizarre display of self-punishment, knock himself unconscious by repeatedly banging his head against a wall in an apparent attempt to stop himself from beating her. And Barbara often said it was like being married to two distinctly different men, one a monster and the other a surprisingly gentle, even romantic, figure. That's just called narcissism, baby. That's all that is, is narcissism and mental illness. This is pure, pure control. If you're listening to this right now,

I'm not saying you are, but you know, I'm surprised how many people listen to our podcast sometimes. And this rings any bells. That good person is not real. It's a mask worn in hopes that keep you around and not get you to leave and to keep you trapped in a cycle. Oh, you mean the classic if you leave me, I'll kill myself. That's yeah, that's exactly as somebody who went through that.

You know, you know the classic that stuff. If you can't let that rule your life, then you just can't. But like, this is the extreme example of it, but I can see this, like these, this is coming from her. So this is not Kuklinski's telling of this part of the story. Like this is stuff that her and her kids saw. Um, and regardless of the terror, they all felt Barbara stayed like most people in abusive relationships do.

She tried to leave him once early on in their marriage, actually. And she actually, this is the story I told last time where she flew and fled off to Florida. But to remind you, she ran to Florida to her father and Kuklinski tracked her ass down, took her back to New Jersey and then beat her so severely. She ended up miscarrying a child that she was carrying at the time and was unable to move for four days straight. I made a song one time about tortilla but now that I think about it it's actually more like a rap. Can we get some crickets edited in? After that brutal lesson, she stopped trying to escape.

The fear she explained to the author and when she was being interviewed became a constant, a background noise that they just had to learn to live with, which just never went away. At the dinner table, he was capable of calmly asking about their school day and complimenting Barber's cooking in the same breath that he might threaten to burn the entire house down if he felt disrespected.

He could transform from laughing at a sitcom with his children to standing silently and menacingly at the window for hours, convinced he was being watched by unseen enemies. That's my downstairs neighbor from like 10 years ago. Well, shit. This stark contrast of his carefully curated home and his brutal profession didn't just coexist. If true, they seem to just feed off each other, reinforce each other.

The more violent and dangerous his work became the more rigid controlling and Unpredictable at home became and as kuklinski's clandestine career as a contract killer. Yeah flourished and his double life intensified Say yeah, really quietly do yourself right there the alliteration. Oh, yeah. Okay. All right, so you're a destined career as a car Yeah, I was there man. I heard it. I heard it. I just wanted to highlight that you did that I'm just proud of myself. I get yeah, I get that His own god I got made me lost sorry you can take it again I'm sorry his double life intensified and so I would say is like personal mythology Kind of rose and take in his own like in his own mind because yeah because his own shit started to smell pretty good

Yeah, yeah, so much so own shit started to smell pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, so much so that he began to spin tales so grandiose, so outrageously over the top, that even his seasoned criminal peers reportedly raised their own eyebrows when they were working with him. Like one instance he claimed,

this is one that like, this is one of the ones people point to as like, he is a pathological liar, and I don't necessarily disagree with that. But he claimed for instance, that he was, he was the one responsible for the disappearance and murder of the infamous Teamsters boss, Jimmy Hoffa. And he was, he did it. He said it was him. According to Kuklinski's accounts,

he shot Hoffa in the head and then transported the body from Detroit to a New Jersey junkyard in the trunk of a car where it was then placed in a 55 gallon drum set on fire and Finally the drum containing Hoffa's remains was crushed in a car compactor and then shipped to Japan as scrap metal. I Imagine this is the most dangerous thing you could say as somewhat because Clearly someone out there did the hit. In prison. This came from his interviews just to give more contact before you go on Jesse.

This came in later interviews after he'd already spent years in prison. Then he admitted to this supposedly. All right. You know what? Do you have a new special coming out? All right, still not, you know what? Do you have a new special coming out? Yeah, the HBO interview. The third one. It's a ton of them, man. Just so you know, law enforcement officials and Hoffa investigators said they found no evidence

to corroborate this claim. The question is, would there be? I don't know. They never found Jimmy Hoffa, right? Like never found any? Sure, sure, sure. Huge. They just made a movie about it recently.

Yeah. Fucking young old young old Robert De Niro. One of the other things that's often pointed out as one of the reasons that like it's a lie is because he drove he killed him and then drove the body super far away. And if there was such a big lake nearby, why didn't they just use that lake? But to me, that feels like I mean, there are other reasons to doubt the story, but wouldn't the reason be so the body is never found? Like you would expect them to look if this teamsters guy like Jimmy Hoffa is a huge name. If they are going to like get rid of him, why would you put him in a

lake? They are undoubtedly going to search in anyway, wouldn't be the most clean way to get rid of him is to kill him and take his body so far away that where they are is not even bothered to be looked. I mean, it checks out the rat guy that he would be this methodical in the whole thing. However, I still don't buy- Oh, I'm not saying it's worth buying.

I just don't know if that argument to me holds up as strongly as people seem to think it does. Sure. I just like with stuff like Jimmy Hoffa, right? It's like, why not at that point, like if you're in jail, right, and you're making money or whatever he's doing to like, agree to do these, like tapes or whatever he's doing the Iceman tapes or whatever they were called like it was like a decade right like he did like several of them right a ton of them this guy got to be on camera so much so like at that point he said you said he admitted this in prison right like oh yeah this is after prison like the smell of his own what year was like I think this is the late 90s. So like even like,

even at that time, even at that time, he had a series of famous, a series of famous interview shows under his belt already. Yeah, by the time Philip Carlo got to him, the man's book that we're using as our source, there had already been stuff. So this wasn't the first. Like, how long had it been since Jimmy Hoffa disappeared at that point already, like 25 years? Yeah, something like that. There's no way they're going to find him anywhere that they're going to say, definitely that's

Jimmy Hoffa. So like, at this point, why not just say you killed Jimmy Hoffa if you're, especially if you're gunning with DeMeo for being the best assassin ever. You know what I mean? It's the same thing as JFK and Marilyn Monroe. The more time goes, the more people insert themselves in the story. You know what I mean? More people. Woody Harrelson's dad, bro.

Yeah, like exactly. So yeah, like I said, there's no evidence. And he further alleged later on that he had undertaken contract work, Kuklinski did, for the CIA and apparently eliminating foreign threats and operatives during the cold war. What's the Chuck Baris now? Like, what are we talking about? He said he spoke of a handler named Phil of being supplied with false passports and identities and of traveling across the globe with a government

station licensed to kill. And none of these assertions were ever substantiated. Obviously, uh, no intelligence operative named Phil matched the descriptions. No one was ever found or traced down. No evidence of extensive foreign traveling during the claimed periods ever surfaced. He also claimed to have been a key participant in the assumption of Gambino family family boss Paul Castellano, which we talked a little bit about Tommy Pitera time, stating he was stationed a block away from the Sparks steakhouse in Manhattan in December, 1985 acting as backup and personally shooting

Castellano's bodyguard Tim Tommy Bellotti, Tommy Bellotti. Sorry. While Gravano, who orchestrated the hit with Josh Gotti, later confirmed Kuklinski's involvement in the Baladi shooting during the HBO interviews, and many mob insiders and federal investigators initially stated that they had never heard Kuklinski's name in connection with that highly publicized and pivotal mob hit.

But he boasted of using crossbows from rooftops with deadly accuracy, of dissolving bodies in vats of acid, of employing hand grenades with tactical precision of keeping a man alive in a freezer for months only to thaw him out. Uh, uh, not five, but keeping the man from decomposing in the freezer only to thaw him out and dump the body later to deliberately confuse stuff. Many of these stories were certainly within the realm of possibility for a man of his strength, ruthlessness, and where he was, what he was doing for work, but a significant number lacked independent verifiable

evidence that meant no fingerprints, no specific crime scene forensics, forensics matching some of the more elaborate scenarios, no autopsy reports that aligned perfectly with these unique methods. Still this self-constructed mythology, which was a blend of, I would say maybe a blend of fact and a lot of fiction, worked in his favor for a considerable time. It kept people both in the underworld and potentially in law enforcement afraid or uncertain and made him seem untouchable, a phantom figure capable of almost anything. The greater the mystery, the more dangerous you appear to somebody who doesn't know anything

other than that. And it gave investigators a bewildering, shall we say, array of different leads and dead ends to chase, even as he remained tantalizingly just out of their definitive reach. He was more than just a suspect. He was a burgeoning, horrifying legend. And that legend in time was beginning to get away from him, to take on a life of its own. And as his self-styled narrative grew, the real Kuklinski, the man behind the tales, began to unravel and law enforcement painstakingly started actually closing in on him. The cracks in his like carefully constructed facade

began showing the once meticulous planning of his occasional hits gave way to way-sloppier execution. He started to trust fewer and fewer people, his paranoia becoming a constant companion to his decision-making, and his already volatile temper just got worse. He confessed to Philip Carlo, again the author, about stabbing a man in a parking lot merely for bumping into him. Another time he shot a man through the heart over a disputed bar tab.

Eventually, the same hyper-vigilance and suspicion that had protected him for so long began to actively undo him. He became convinced that he was constantly being followed, that every new acquaintance was a potential informant or threat. He would take long, unnecessarily convoluted routes to even routine destinations, frequently doubling back to see if a car was on his tail. And this, I don't necessarily not buy because Tommy Patera did the exact same thing. I would be fucking, yeah, they make it very clear you're in danger the whole time that

you're doing this job. Yeah. He began sleeping with a loaded gun on his nightstand and another one taped securely beneath the kitchen table. He installed multiple locks on all his doors and lined his basement with an array of padlocks. Their purpose never really was explained to his family. He cut ties with many of his old contacts. One, he was forced to work with, when he was forced to work with someone new, he would often subject them to unnerving tests of loyalty, like sometimes by

issuing veiled threats, like sometimes by issuing veiled threats, other times by offering deliberately false information as bait, waiting to see if it leaked back to him through the underworld grapevine. He was no longer the cool, detached professional who could seamlessly disappear after a job. He was becoming, very, very quickly, increasingly erratic, impulsive, and sloppy. This calculated precision was going, going, gone. His family noticed the change too. Barbro would talk about how he was often up late

into the night pacing the house like a caged animal, obsessively checking his windows, sometimes sitting silently and rigidly in the kitchen until sunrise staring into the darkness. I do that and I'm not even a hitman, dude. Yeah, that's just called trauma. The man who used to run his household with this iron fist of control and rigidity

was to Barbara more and more looking like a ghost or like he had just seen a ghost or maybe he was just waiting for justice to come crashing through the door. Another example of his unraveling and willingness to kill for seemingly even more trivial reasons was the crossbow test. Kuklinski, ever curious about new killing methods, acquired a small, powerful Italian-made

crossbow. To determine its lethality on a human target, he drove around looking for a victim and spotting an unsuspected man walking alone on a secluded street. Richard pulled up, feigning needing directions to lure the man closer to his car. And then as the man approached shot him directly in the forehead with a six inch steel shafted arrow. Okay. Before you say, let me continue. Let me say, there's no evidence of this. There's no dead death by crossbow reported.

The most unique like death I can think of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me continue. The man collapsed instantly, leaving another unsolved murder in his wake. And similarly after the high profile Castellano hit, while returning to New Jersey, a hitchhiker gave Richard the finger when he didn't stop to offer a ride. Enraged by this perceived disrespect, Kuklinski, who just decided, fuck it, doubled back and shot the hitchhiker dead on the side of the road. These acts demonstrated, like, how fast this man was coming undone.

He's just- He's just murdering people now like he's going down to the bathroom downstairs to take a shit and One of the more more complex and disturbing incidents during this his period of decline involved someone called John Spasudo a con artist with whom Kuklinski had engaged in various schemes with schemes with over the years including Nigerian currency fraud Spasudo led Kuklinski like real marijuana dealer who, to Kuklinski's horror, was also involved in child pornography and kept several abused children hidden in a secret basement. Kuklinski, despite his own monstrous nature, supposedly had a strict personal code

against harming children. Deeply disturbed by what he saw, he later returned to the dealer's house alone. He systematically shot the dealer and two of his associates before leaving. And then rather before leaving, he went to the basement door, called down to the terrified children,

instructed one of the older girls to count to 20 and then call the police assuring the men couldn't hurt them anymore. He left the front door open for their escape. And so he saved a bunch of orphans too. Yeah. So like, you know, he was like, sometimes a killer is like the weird version of the Punisher. Yeah.

And he, and this is, and they have these kids and now these kids showed up in the documentary and talked about this crazy night. It was around this period that Kuklinski, his high-level mafia connections, dwindling are now dead. No they did not. Began to take on jobs from individuals. From individuals he might have once considered beneath him when it came to his professional quote unquote standards will say like he's now starting to deal with low level criminals, small time drug dealers, wannabe mobsters with petty grievances, not like him. He kind of justified these lesser contracts now as necessary cash grabs. So he had a way to maintain his income stream.

But in reality, his operational world was very rapidly shrinking. The powerful crime families weren't calling with the same frequency or for the same high stakes assignments. DeMeo was dead, Robert Prongay was dead now, and Richard Kuklinski, for all his lethal skill and terrifying reputation, had stayed in the deadly game too long. His luck and his nerve were beginning to fray. And then inevitably he made the critical mistake. All criminals eventually do. He let the wrong man in, a man who would ultimately lead investigators straight to his door.

Tommy Patera did the thing, the same thing. One of his best friends who was not meant to be in this business, uh, wanted out. Tommy wouldn't let him. The the cops got to him and that was his out. This guy's name was Phil Solomene, the Patterson based fence and his supposed friend who he was a fence. He sold illegal things to for people who don't know what that is. And he was based in Patterson, who under pressure would agree to cooperate with the authorities. And now the Iceman slowly but surely was beginning to melt.

Oh, before his, before his final collapse, before his supposed intricate web of his life and crimes was fully exposed. There was still one last chapter to his operational prime, one last spree of violence, one last season of murder where the Iceman was still in the terrified whispers of the underworld, the most feared ghost in organized crime. And that's where the relentless multi-jurisdictional investigation spearheaded

by a tenacious New Jersey state trooper named Pat Kane truly begins to gain traction. We'll delve into the high stakes undercover operation led by an ATF agent named Dominic Polifero, Ne and the chilling candid conversations that were actually caught on tape, the betrayals by those Kuklinski thought, uh, who could see thought he could trust and the insanely painstaking efforts to separate who this man actually is versus the story,

what we told and how much of it is myth. That's what did Kuklinski actually do and what did he merely and did he merely just want to be a horrified persona and myth to the world more so than he was ever capable of. And that is where we will pick up next week. The third and final episode on Richard Kukinski the Iceman mmm How much is fact how much is fiction boys hold that date hold on to that doubt? Yeah, I'm holding crime so holding so many times Yeah, you know like we'll see how it goes, but you're not wrong to think that there's some fishy going on in Denmark She's been going on. Yeah. Yeah exactly. Yeah exactly yeah what that said thank you all so much for supporting us

we'll be back next week the brand new episode here please go buy our shirts at the Yeti comm slash Chiluminati we got a brand new Chiluminati shirt as well as a limited edition Bigfoot shirt by studio melectro if you saw that cool Bigfoot poster we had going on around a couple of miles ago Mel actually like drought his entire body and now he's a little cutie on a t-shirt. So please go buy that and let me ask you guys one last question. What did Elvis say to his landscaper? Thank you.

Thank you for the mulch. Anyway, me and my wife were sitting outside indulging on our porch one night enjoying ourselves. I needed to go to the bathroom so I stepped back inside and after a few moments I hear my wife go, holy shit get out of here. So I quickly dash back outside, she's looking up at the sky in a fall. I look up too and there's a perfect line of dozen lights traveling across the sky. I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man

I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man

I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man Thanks for watching!