Chilluminati Podcast - Episode 337: The Alien Breeding Program and Budd Hopkins

Episode Date: February 15, 2026

A Valentine's Day treat from Mathas to us all: a dive into the origins of the Alien breeding program and Budd Hopkins.CHILLUMINATI is a weekly comedy podcast hosted by Mike Martin, Jesse Cox and Alex Faciane. Hold on to your tin-foil hats and traverse the realms of the mysterious, supernatural, spooky and sometimes truly horrible - and your third eye will never be the same!Subscribe to our Patreon to support us and for extra content like full video episodes, weekly Minisodes, exclusive art, and more at http://patreon.com/CHILLUMINATIPODMERCH: https://theyetee.com/chilluminatiThank you to our sponsors:Mike Martin - http://www.youtube.com/@themoleculemindset Jesse Cox - http://www.youtube.com/jessecox Alex Faciane - https://www.youtube.com/@StarWarsOldCanonBookClub/Editor: DeanCutty Producer: Hilde @ https://bsky.app/profile/heksen.bsky.social Show Art: Studio Melectro @ http://www.instagram.com/studio_melectro Logo Design: Shawn JPB @ https://twitter.com/JetpackBragginThe source used in this episode is Intruders: The Incredible Visitations at Copley Woods by Budd Hopkins.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Chuluminati podcast. Episode 337, as always, I'm one of your host, Mike Martin, joined with my two prime studs in my white male bearded podcaster breeding program, Alex and Jesse. Hey. No cap. What's up? Yeah.

Bet. I'm trying to breed like the purest white male podcaster you possibly can. The purest? I don't want to be on that show. We're too loving. No, we're too kind. We have too much empathy to be. I need a little bit of flavor.

You have too much empathy to be a pure white male podcaster. There's not enough willingness to ignore suffering in our minds. Well, a lot of those major ones that you know out there aren't allowed in the program because they have to have principles, like minimal. They need principles. So you do have morals. I mean like, yeah, yeah, no, like pure not in the genetic way,

but just in like a nice guy kind of way. So you're not Mr. Sinister. You're like, no, no, no. I don't want that. I don't be associated with a nice guy podcast. Kissin her. Kiss, Kissinator. No, no.

You're Mr. Kissinger. You're not Mr. Sinister. You're Mr. Kissinger. You know, I'm like Kiss. Like kiss, not like Kissinger. No. This is, we need to. Can we restart the podcast?

No, this is a terrible way to start over this. Can we just start this? My man said, I'm not Mr. Sinister. I'm Henry Kissinger. I fucked my whole fucking career with one miss beak. It's over. It's over. Too late.

Listen, I'm Henry Kissinger, not Mr. Sinister remix, like, of our theme song comes out. Here, dear, dear, dear, here, here, here, here. Okay, we got to go. It all makes sense in a minute. We've been just quietly chatting for like 25 minutes. We've been, like, having, like, a simple, like, uncontroversial conversation. The minute record is placed. I don't know.

A different handker of years. Baby. He's like, I want to make a pure white podcast. What the hell are you talking about? What he's trying to say? What he's trying to say? What he's trying to say? It's the Valentine's Day special of Chaluminati today.

That's what he was trying to say? That's right. It is spelled with N-U-G-H-T-Y. Thanks for asking, Jesse. And I just want to remind everybody that, to support this fine show that we put on here, that if you love us as much as you love your partner on Valentine's Day or your own self,

which I think should come first, head on over to patreon.com slash chillmanati pod, where you can support us as if you were dating us, but for way cheaper, unless you're that one guy who pays Jesse $10,000, in which case, that's about what I hear his going rate is. I'm waiting for that bribe.

Yeah. When we go to Big Money Cities, when we go to cities where F1 championships are held, that's about how much he goes for. So it's about right. It's true. True. But I am open to anything. Yeah.

And he's a Hagler. So is that what we call it? I think so. Yeah. Call it a Hagler. Also, between this, well, between this episode and next, our eighth birthday as a show happens. So happy eighth anniversary to us, gentlemen. Eight years. Yikes, dude. Eight years. I don't even want to look at a picture of myself. Like today, I like didn't really remember that I was

wearing like a fleece sweater when I came on the camera. I feel like I'm like wearing my bed. I just looks comfy. It, oh, it is. But just imagining myself eight years ago and what I must have looked like. Oh, it is. Oh, it is. This is from Old Navy. so it's just you know it's reliable but here's the thing i was much younger eight years ago and i just feel like it would be shocking to see no i mean that's that is how time works that is exactly how time works no that's it you nailed it maybe you guys maybe this isn't how you guys are but for me i was much younger eight years ago yeah no i hey man i yeah still cruising depends on which department of the chluminati you get stationed in but i am still on normal age time yeah yeah oh i am it's a different

world different time. We've come a long way and in many ways nowhere at all. Did you just say the slogan of the Star Wars Old Canon Book Club, Loki? I thought I was doing the lyrics. That song that plays when Paul Walker drives off of the end. Of Star Wars? Of Star Wars, right. At the end of Star Wars of Paul Walker looks to Vin Diesel and Vin says, may the force be with you. And Paul Walker says, always and drives away. Darth Vader is all sad, because he like got bodied by pawn he lost the race he lost his he lost his speeder paul walker comes up when he's like spinning in the fucking tie his special tie fighter yeah uh yeah anyway sorry about that guys the reason breeding came up anyway is because this is the valentine's day episode and in the the idea for the episode

was we've talked about many times the hybrid breeding program of the alien gray right like or any name any particular alien. There's some sort of hybrid reading program. It's like the meme trope of it all, right? Like, I thought you're about to say it's like a meat cue. It's like a meat cute between an alien and a person's genes. No, like it's in X-Files.

It's in like anything like that. There's always a fucking alien breeding program. Perfect dark. I think there's one, right? Yeah. And the original idea for the episode was to just talk about that as a whole. But I kind of do what I always do. and I just went to the source of all of this.

Of alien breeding? Of where like really this. Yeah, the alien breeding kind of lore comes from. And it really focuses around a guy by the name of Bud Hopkins. And that's kind of just going to be the episode today. And I want so we'll open up with like a set of the scene. So you kind of know where this is all going to end up going. October 1983, a woman.

Let's call her Kathy because her name is Kathy. Is laying on a table. She doesn't know where she is. The room is really. dim, she says the air feels wrong, and standing in front of her is a little girl. Four years old, maybe five with a heart-shaped face, skin so pale, it's almost translucent, very creamy white, like she's never seen sunlight in her life. She has wispy white hair, thin enough to see through, and a head shape that's slightly too

large for her body. And her eyes are enormous, vivid blue eyes that take up too much of her already. already too big face. The girl is timid. She seems maybe even afraid. And Kathy is crying because she knows, knows somewhere deep down that this little girl is her daughter. So I'm imagining Alita Battle Angel.

Is that right? Kind of. Yeah, you know what? Not too bad. Not a bad thought. Yeah, yeah. Those kind of like oversized eyes. Exactly.

Like, I don't know where we're going with this, but Alita Battle Angel. I actually, I think I do know where we're going with this, but I was playing coy for the purpose of the, story. You do great job. No one ever could tell. Dude, don't worry about it. I've got your secret safe with me. Thank you. The thing is with Kathy, she was never pregnant, at least not in any way that makes sense. And she's never seen this child before, but something in her, in her just like cracks open and she says through sobs that this girl is

part of her. She reaches out to hold her, but others around won't. let her. That is going to be the story we really focus on because this story of Kathy is the origin of like this hybrid breeding program thing. We are diving headfirst into one of the most honestly important, I guess, in UFO lore books of the UFO research world. The book that we're basing this on, the source for today's episode is Intruders, the incredible visitations at Copley Woods by Bud Hopkins, which was published in 1987. one year after I was born. And I need, like, let's set the table with this book here because this thing literally

introduced lore about the abduction phenomenon that persists to this day, extremely strongly in alien and UFO subreddits, all the way to like high strangeness subreddits. I see this kind of thing a lot. It's literally like in the zeitgeist almost. Like it's almost like mythological, genuinely. Yeah. And before intruders, like UFO discussions back then were about. your usual suspects. You know, you liked in the sky, missing time, maybe a medical exam on a

table like Betty or Barney Hill, but Hopkins opened up the doors to much more. Because what he found, or what he claims to have found, was a program, a systematic, multi-generational genetic harvesting operation targeting specific human bloodlines. And at the center of it was a woman from rural Indiana, whose story is so weird and layered and honestly and very internally consistent and so corroborated by independent witnesses and physical evidence that there's a lot that's really hard to wave all of this away as something didn't happen here. And Bud Hopkins is also important to the story. He's not just some dude who saw a UFO once and then started a podcast like we did.

Hopkins was like Hopkins. He hadn't even seen the UFO until 300 episodes into the podcast by the way. Zach, that's yeah, that's very true. And I don't talk about it. Hopkins was a respected New York expressionist painter. And when I say respected, I mean his work hung in the Guggenheim,

the Whitney, MoMA, the hearshorn, which I'm not very familiar with. That one is from my imagination only, it sounds like. Yeah, exactly. Me too. I was like, should be Alders Gate. Don't worry about it. He was kind of a fixture of downtown Manhattan art scene.

He'd often have gallery shows, art world connections, the whole deal. This was a man with real cultural capital and absolutely nothing to gain by going to the UFO world. By publicly associing himself with the UFO research would only do him more harm than good. At least, again, personal opinion. I feel like you don't jeopardize a career of that level for attention. from an audience that feels like not your like usual suspects. I mean, we always say this, but I just want to remind everyone that like sometimes you do though, which is why I say my personal opinion.

Like I there's obviously there's always that there's always that chance. But he got pulled into this after he got pulled in after his own 1964 UFO sighting in Cape Cod, which importantly, multiple other witnesses also saw. So it wasn't just a solo experience. And that's kind of like what set the hook in him. He started quietly starting to look into other people's experiences, started collecting cases. And what he found just started pulling him in deeper and deeper.

And by 1981, he published Missing Time, which would be his first book, which established what would become foundational patterns in abduction research today. Things like unexplained gaps in memory, unusual scars that appeared overnight with no explanation, recurring nightmare. about non-human entities with large heads and dark eyes and a pervasive sense among experiencers that something happened to them.

They couldn't quite access it consciously as all. And missing time was Hopkins testing kind of the water while intruders, his later book, was him just going on a full deep dive into the abyss like I often do. And what he came to the abyss. Yeah, it is, dude, diving into the alien world is like diving into abyss. Fair enough. It feels that way. You're exploring and when you come back, you feel like you've learned nothing and everything.

It just feels like a confusing experience. He spent years on the investigation that would be the intruder's book. He brought in outside professionals like a clinical psychologist to do blind evaluations, medical doctors to assess physical evidence, a trained hypnotist because what would a UFO research be without one? He cross-reference cases from across the country looking for patterns that couldn't be explained by cultural contamination or shared media exposure, which is another thing that kind of back in that time, I'm glad he was thinking about because it really doesn't feel like it was something

people were thinking about often when we talk about this stuff. And what he found was a consistency so precise and detailed across so many unrelated witnesses that for him, he says, it either represented the most elaborate shared delusion in modern psychology. Again, this is coming from him, though, not a trained professional. people who had basically never met each other independently generating identical procedural narratives with matching medical details or something was actually happening to these people. And just to be clear, we're presenting what Hopkins is reported. We're going to lay out the evidence as he presented it because the evidence itself is what's interesting here regardless of where you land on it.

But it is all coming from Hopkins point of view. With all that laid, let's fully jump in. Have you heard of this before, by the way, either of you, this particular incident? I mean, the name for sure. I know that I've read something about this, but it's not one of the ones that, like, I know beat for beat or anything like that. We go to June 30th, 1983, Indianapolis, Indiana, specifically a rural area south of the city called Copley Woods.

This time, it's a warm summer night, somewhere around. 1045 p.m. And a woman named Joyce Lloyd is watching TV in her home when the screen suddenly turns red. The whole picture just completely red on the TV. At the same time, she feels a physical vibration shake the whole house, like something massive detonated nearby as a way she described it. And then a bright flash of light comes from outside. And to me, that was me.

I'd be like, oh, I'm about to die. Like, this is a bomb going off near me for no reason. I'm about to die. Look out and just like, there's a huge white light. Just like close my eyes. Horrendous. Yeah,

her neighbor, a woman will come to know very well. Kathy Davis is at home with her mother Mary. They're in the kitchen. The lights in the house flicker, dim for a moment, and the air changes. And in the backyard,

behind the house, something happens. Now, Kathy's mother Mary actually goes to the back door. She looks out the window and she sees light. An intense localized light source in the, backyard that has no relationship should be there's nothing in the backyard that produces light there but the thing is when this is a detail hopkins flagged as significant mary does not go

investigate she doesn't open the door she turns around and goes to bed what which i know it's hard to remember but we've talked about other instances where they see something weird and instead of being pulled by it they're just like going to bed or i'm going to go to sleep and they just go to bed. So that's, that's, that's, that's,

that's a trope. It is, it is a trope that is, like through line through many other abduction of stories. And we'll hear about that kind of thing. That is exactly the type of detail that I would add to stories that would, like, commonly explain the decision in the middle of the night to have seen a UFO and why you

would have gone to sleep is because it's just, I mean, that's, that's a rough one. If we, if we look at this from a more woo angle and that these things, operate on a level of consciousness or what have you, and they have the ability to influence how you feel

by just hitting your brain with whatever. It's easier. It's like hitting my mind again, because a wildlife kind of thing, right? How do we look at our animals? We hit them with a trank dart first, and then after they go to sleep, we scoop, we measure,

we do all these things, we tag, and then we put them back in the wild. And if these things can influence us, wouldn't it be the easiest thing if they wanted to grab us to just put us to sleep? first and just be like, yeah, you'll go to bed and then we'll scoop you up and take you away.

Yes. Yes. It's scarier that way to me. Like, that's scarier to me to look at a light. And because if I ever look at something in my sky that's bright and not doesn't belong there and I'm like, go to bed. Something happened to me. Something happened to me because I wouldn't do that.

It's just kind of like, okay, like, you know how like the warrants like have the deal in their contract where it's like, and we're never going to have sex with minors in our movies. Yeah. And you're like, wait, wait, why are you, why is that in there? And they're like, no reason at all. This is just a standard contract. You're like, no, no, normally they don't have that in there.

That's the same as this. It's like, why are we talking? Why are we, why do we have an explanation for this if you're not trying to explain? It's just, it just feels very like. They don't explain why she went to bed. They just only that she does. Regardless, like at 1045 at night with a blinding light in her backyard, a woman who by all accounts, as far as like, again, is presented, is not the type to ignore strange occurrences,

you know, kind of like wouldn't just leave her backyard with a bright light landing in it. It just does, goes to bed. And Hopkins believed this was an example of what he called, quote unquote, switch off behavior or switched off behavior, which is a kind of imposed compulsion to not engage, not investigate, and just simply look away. And we will end up seeing this pattern again. The next morning, Kathy goes outside and finds a circle in her yard. Dead grass about eight feet in diameter, perfectly circular.

The soil inside the circle has been changed in some way, she says. Not burned exactly, but there was no fire damage to surrounding vegetation and there was no scorching on nearby plants. A ghost peed on it. The ghost just had this huge piss saved up for 10,000 years and just let it all out in a perfect circle. Whoa. But the soil itself was also like a different color and consistency. And in the center of the circle, a smaller spot where the ground is indented as if something enormously heavy had sat there and then been lifted and removed. Hopkins went out there. He wasn't super

interested in just the story aspect. He wanted to like physical data of all this stuff. So he went out there and arranged for soil samples from inside and outside the circle to be sent to a laboratory for analysis. And the results came back and they were honestly weird. Whatever happened to that soil required temperatures of about 800 degrees Fahrenheit sustained for six hours to replicate the coloring changes. 800 degrees for six hours is absurd, especially in a suburban backyard on grass with no fire damage to the surrounding vegetation. No conventional explanation could account for that particular thing. Joyce Lloyd next door independently confirmed the timing 1045 p.m. TV went red, house shook, bright flash. She hadn't spoken to Kathy about the details

before Hopkins interviewed them separately, and their accounts synced up perfectly. And this is what drew Hopkins to Indianapolis in the first place. A letter from Kathy describing the landing in its aftermath sent to him after she read missing time. But when he actually got there and started talking to the family, the landing turned out to be the least interesting thing that had ever happened to them, and it was the tip of an iceberg that went down for decades.

Kathy Davis, and that is the pseudonym Hopkins used in the book to protect her identity, her real name wouldn't come out till later, was in her early 30s when Hopkins met her. She was married, two young sons living in her family's house in rural Indiana, normal Midwest life on the surface. I want to like go here next time we're in Indiana. That's like so.

Just go to the person's house? No, just like the idea of going to rural Indiana south of Indianapolis or whatever and like kind of like. Yeah, yeah. It is where all the paranormal stuff happens in movies and TV shows. Right. Exactly.

People talked about her like, you know, your typical kind of just Midwestern life. She was at PTA meetings. People would see her at the grocery store. People just, you know, in the neighborhood, knew each other. She was at church every Sunday. But for her personally, something she hadn't really spoken about with really her family all that much or friends was that she also had a lifetime of experiences that she'd never

been able to explain and tried mostly never to think about. As a kid, she had recurring nightmares, specifically dreams about small figures with large head standing in her bedroom at night. For her, she said it when she dreamt those things, it felt more real than just any normal dream did. She had a scar on her shin that appeared overnight when she was a child, a straight, thin line, like a little incision, perfectly clean, with no memory how it got there to, but to be fair, kids fucking trip and scrape and hurt themselves all the damn time.

I do, I do have a question really quickly. I didn't really hit me until now because the way you described that wound, the incision, the straight line. Like, you can fly through space, potentially time, breaking all the barriers of known physics, logic. Yet you still leave a scar when you operate on someone. Surely you could, like, there's things that we have that can eliminate or reduce scarring to an extent. Surely an alien could cover up.

the scarring for when they cut open a person to make it look like, hey, we, we didn't though, surely. The only logical thing if there is one would be, what if they just don't see us as equals and they don't care? If they just don't care that we see it. So we're like,

wildlife. We're wildlife, so they still star us. But like, we leave animals with tags on all the time. They're probably like, what the fuck is that? Sure.

That's what I'm saying. If I'm to logically come at this with, an explanation, not that you have a phenomenal point. Understood. Understood. I'm trying to think of like, I don't know that we understand any animals to be as sentient as we are. Who would have the knowledge of like, well, that's very awkward.

I'm going to ruminate on this for a while. I'm going to go to my blog. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, I'm going to make a whole thing about this that it becomes a career for someone. Like, I don't think that's, you know, unless we're still little creatures. We tag isn't doing that.

And these, these things are coming from a place where time isn't really, like, real. And we're silly little creatures stuck in three-dimensional time. And, like, we're still very simplistic to them. It just seems like that's lazy alien thing. You know, they could heal us better, treat us better. Yeah, where's the, where's the Stargate pod that you get into? And it makes you, you know, like the crazy people on Facebook are talking about those healing beds, the med beds. The med beds.

Yeah. We're talking about in the movie Elysium now or what? Same thing. I haven't seen either of those. So I don't know. Regardless, the scar appeared one morning with supposedly no accident and she wasn't the only one. Her mother, Mary, had similar experiences going back decades and her sister Laura also had

them. The thing is, whatever it was, ran in the family seemingly like genetic inheritance of some kind, which as we'll see and as we've talked about might be exactly what it was, again, if the story of a breeding program of some kind is true. One detail Hopkins documented really early on that really set the tone for him was that family members reported what he called suspended animation during abduction events. When one person in the household was being taken, everyone else in the house would become completely unconscious, like switched off.

Very similar to the Andreessen affair when she left and they like fucking froze everybody in place and like brought the kids literally to bed up the stairs. are like going to bed now. Dead to the world, alarms couldn't wake them up. It didn't noise light, nothing like that would wake them up. And then they'd all wake up normally the next morning

with no one awareness that anything had even happened. Kathy's husband, her kids, her mother, whoever wasn't the target that night, was simply shut down like a machine, like they flipped a breaker in their brains and just put them to bed.

Just turning off C3Pio. Bang. Yep, lights off. Yep, lights off. Hopkins also conducted a dream. dream survey with the Davis family that produced some interesting results. He asked family members independently without letting them compare notes to describe recurring. The overlap he said was pretty staggering.

Multiple family members described the same types of beings, the same environments, the same feelings of paralysis and examination without ever having discussed these dreams with each other. The consistency for him really rung a bell. And I mean, to a degree, it's true that if you've suffered traumatic events, You will process them one way or another, and a lot of that can be in your dreams. Hopkins began working with Kathy under hypnotic regression, and I know we have talked about the limitations of hypnosis countless times on the show.

It's not a truth serum. Memory under hypnosis is susceptible to complete lies and fabrication, leading questions in particular to the expectations of what the hypnotist is even trying to get out of them. Hopkins was aware of all of this, and he used a professional hypnotist. He made efforts to avoid leading questions, and critically, he didn't treat hypnotic testimony as gospel, which again, I very much appreciate about him. He used it more as like a starting point, kind of a way maybe to access blocked traumatic memories and not take everything they're saying as word for word truth as to how everything went down. And then he tried to verify details through independent means. Physical evidence was huge for him.

Witness corroboration, medical records. If something came up in a regression and couldn't be corroborated, he would flag it as unverified. And to his credit, too, and the book is kind of dedicated to him. This man sounds like J. Allen Heinek, home edition, like a hobbyist version of J. Allen Heineck. He's doing everything J. Allen Hineck did. Like, just really trying to, like, focus on the physical, not really worrying about much else and, like, keeping an orderly, like, document source of all this stuff.

And you can fold them up and put him in your, like, cabinet so he doesn't take up that much space. Exactly. Because you got a house, you know, you don't have all that much space. You're a working person. It's not, obviously like,

it's not perfect methodology by modern scientific standards, but it was more rigorous than what most researchers in the field were doing at the time and I'd even argue what most researchers are doing in the field to this day.

What came out of those sessions painted a picture that built layer by layer into something genuinely unprecedented in the literature at the time. The first major event Hopkins uncovered, was from 1977.

When Kathy was a young woman, late teens, maybe early 20s, and she recalled being taken from a remote area, she called the Boonies, which is what I used to call where I lived in Rhode Island with the boonies. Kind of middle of nowhere. Exactly.

Of a rural spot, a rural spot where she'd gone with her boyfriend, and under hypnosis, she described being taken aboard a craft and subjected to gynecological examinations, instruments she couldn't identify, beings who communicated, but not through speech

any way that she understood. The exam was thorough, clinical, and then entirely focused on her reproductive system. She came out of that regression, shaking. She had never described anything like this consciously before, and the details she provided the positioning, the instruments, the focus of their reproductive tissue, just kind of everything about the procedure,

would match reports from other abductees that she had never met in whose stories she had never read. Then there was December, 1976, or possibly 1978, the dates get a little fuzzy in her memory. Kathy described walking in her bed to find figures in her room. Small gray with oversized heads and enormous eyes. She was paralyzed. She couldn't move or scream.

And during this event, she described something being inserted into her body through her nostril. A small object pushed deep through her nasal passage. And this is the implant event, as she came later to call it. And it matters because across Hopkins research, all abduction research that he's done, nasal implants show up with a disturbing amount of frequency. Of the cases Hopkins investigated for this book, he documented 11 separate cases of apparent implants, six nasal, two eye socket, and three ear. All targeting the same general region proximity to the brain. Kathy's case was one of the nasal ones. And after this event, Kathy discovered she was pregnant.

This was confirmed by a doctor, a positive pregnancy test. She was now suddenly expecting a child. And then she wasn't. Somewhere around two to three months into the pregnancy, it simply ended. Like, she notes not a miscarriage. There was no bleeding or cramping. Just went away? Her doctor was even confused.

One visit, she's pregnant. and then the next the fetus is just literally gone. Like it wasn't there at all. And Kathy's case like magic. Like magic. Like magic. Like magic. There was no tissue left over.

Like they looked for her. So she just wasn't pregnant, period. That could be the case. According to this. No, but I'm saying like according to this. Yeah. There was no like there's nothing left behind. There's no sign she was ever pregnant.

Which it could have been a false positive too. Keep in mind. It could have been a false positive. positive. Kathy's case for the situation wasn't unique in this. Hopkins found multiple women across unrelated cases reporting the exact same pattern, confirm pregnancy, normal early progression, then sudden termination with no medical explanation and no physical evidence of miscarriage. Like the fetus simply vanished. Under hypnosis, Kathy recalled what she believed happened. In March of 1978, she described being taken again. This time, the procedure was explicitly focused on removing

something from her uterus. She described it with a like raw emotion screaming at the beings during the hypnosis, telling them it wasn't fair. It belonged to her. And the detail that stuck with Hopkins was that she said the being seemed surprised by her emotional reaction. Like they genuinely did not understand why she was so upset. They appeared astonished that she had any attachment to the developing fetus at all. And this Hopkins argued was a clue about the nature of who ever was doing this, that their technology was insanely like beyond anything we could even think about. They could apparently paralyze humans erase memories and perform complex medical procedures

that leave no trace other than a weird scar. And they're like, again, weird how the fetus can disappear. And now the scar can't, though. Yeah, see, now you got me thinking about that. The comparison is strange. It's weird. It's weird. It's weird.

But okay. Yeah, it's weird. But they, whatever these things worse, had seemingly zero understanding of human, human emotional psychology, they couldn't fathom that this woman would be like bond to her unborn kid because she didn't think it was like an alien baby when she realized she was pregnant. She thought she was just pregnant. That's all. So like, yeah, like it's weird that the aliens would think, you know, taking this is true that

the aliens would even like think that that they'd be confused about that. But I don't know. But I mean, it's going back to what you said, boy, I can't believe I'm doing this. Going back to what you were saying. originally when we dealt with animals and the way we treated animals, we did not know or understand truly how much they bond with their children. Some animals don't. Some animals are like,

get the hell out of here. But some animals are like, that's my kid, man. So yeah, like you can see it when they, you know, record a baby being born to an animal. Like there's some genuine like care for a lot of them.

So. Yeah. No, yeah. But we were just like, no, we're, you know,

Hell, I was, you know what? I was about to say like, you know, we didn't know. But also, I don't think we cared, to be honest. No. So. Yeah, no shit. For Kathy, though, up until this point with Hopkins, like she, something that she just kept filed away would basically just say to tell herself it's either a vivid imagination,

you know, not real. It was dreams, whatever. She didn't really want to think about it. But Hopkins didn't stop there. And he didn't stop with Kathy either. And what he found when he started comparing. her case to the others is where this book goes like kind of really gets it gets money to start parsing it apart i'll just say that it's a good book it's a good read but if you're going to read it

it just there's a lot of cross comparison and a lot to keep track of i also want to like flag something before we go to the next part too the reproductive angle wasn't actually fully new if you're a real chelumonaut you would know this because it actually technically goes back to betty and barney hill The issue is they didn't talk about it. It wasn't like a breeding program as far as they knew. It was just Barney got hooked up to a machine and forcefully like pumped. Pumped out. Yeah, exactly.

They never talked about it beyond that. So it never really made it into mainstream. But it isn't unprecedented. It isn't unprecedented because their case was 1961. This is like, you know, that's just the Hill case is huge. And Hopkins saw the Hill case as the first glimpse of the pattern recognition. he would see for the other ones that he wouldn't see until 25 years after the case was done. One of the more striking supportive cases involves a young woman Hopkins calls Andrea.

She was 13 years old when she turned up pregnant. 13 is really fucking young, obviously in general. But like back then to like the country was even more conservative. And it would have been just like instead of like nowadays and I mean this like they would maybe support their daughter and take care of like whether it be abortion. you know, whatever. Back then, they would have just hid the daughter or like disowned the daughter, God, you know, whatever the case may be.

And that's like the kid, there's a kid there. And by every account, according to her and her family, she was a virgin who had never had sexual intercourse and she was, again, they repeat a kid. Her family doctor confirmed the pregnancy and she carried to a certain point. And then, just like Kathy, the pregnancy vanished with no evidence of a miscarriage or medical intervention. Just gone. Later, under hypnosis, Andrea described being shown a baby. Tiny, maybe 12 inches long, she said, abnormally light, shiny black eyes, hair so thin and sparse,

it was almost not there. Sound familiar? Then the beings presented this infant to her as if to say, this is yours. When she was still 13, this happened to her. Obviously, Hopkins drew the parallel between the two of them that he was investigating. they were separated by geography unknown to each other but both describing the same sequence of events the same exams unexpected pregnancy vanishing fetus and later presentation of some hybrid infant i know it's weird and then there's susan williams susan's case involved what hopkins called

a shared abduction she and another person were taken simultaneously and their independent accounts corroborated each other on details neither should have known Susan also described the pregnancy pattern, and she described being shown what Hopkins came to call a quote-unquote wise baby, an infant with grayish pallor, tissue thin skin, abnormally light, almost like fragile, 12 inches long, the same description over and over again. He decides that call that a wise baby. But it was different woman, another different part of the country, same baby phenomenon. on. Susan also contributed one of the most important pieces of medical evidence in the entire book. During her abduction, she described a procedure where her abdomen was inflated, quote, unquote, blown up like a balloon, she said.

So she also invented this inflatable porn? Yeah, she came up with, what do you call those? I know it exists. Oh, it's the inflation fetish? That's, it is a thing. It is. I don't. All right, man.

Yeah. She said she felt her organs shifting. around inside her body, then a pinpoint penetration near her pelvis, intense pressure, and then extraction. Here's where a medical doctor named John Berger. I know, I know, I know. These were a medical doctor named John Berger now enters the picture. Hopkins described these abdominal procedures to Dr. Berger without telling him the context,

just the symptoms, inflation of the abdomen, organs moving, you know, the pinpoint penetration, and Dr. Berger immediately identified it. That's a laparoscopy. Specifically, that's an ova retrieval procedure, a technique used in fertility medicine to harvest eggs from a woman's ovaries. The procedure involves inflating the abdominal cavity with gas to create a working space, inserting a thin instrument through a small incision near the navel or pelvis, and using it to extract eggs from the ovaries.

Real medical procedure, and it matched what Kathy described. It matched what Susan described. And here's the kicker. Neither woman had any medical training and had never went through this before. And they both described this shit with like perfect accuracy. Neither had undergone laparoscopy before. They didn't have any framework for knowing what that procedure felt like. And they both independently were able to describe it. Different years too. Never mind different states and two different women. That is weird. That is weird. That's good. I love how hold on, hold on. I love how a random sigh. is Jesse. You went, Jesse, like, you thought for a moment that I was over it. No, no, no, no, no, no. That was out. You got me trained like Pavlov's dog, bro. I'm listening at all times.

What's up, Alex? No, I'm hanging. I'm hanging. I'm hanging. What are your thoughts on it so far? I'm just thinking about, like, right now my mind is like, sort of occupied with a history of like evolving tales of like alien breeding and the fact that so many different people like real or fake, right? Either this is real and we're just hearing a bunch of stories about the same thing told by different people

like mirror, like in an echo chamber on each other. Or it's like the worst meme ever. It's like the weirdest, grossest meme ever. And that's what I'm thinking about right now. Yeah, okay. Well, we move on to Sandy Thomas next. Sandy's case centered on an implant, not a nasal one. This one was in her ear. And she described something being pushed. deep into her ear canal during a childhood abduction scenario. As an adult, she experienced unexplained hearing issues, buzzing, the sensation that there's something in her ear often, medical examination found.

Nothing conclusive. But the symptom pattern matched other implant cases Hopkins was also tracking. And by this point in his research, Hopkins had documented 27 abductees with similar unexplained evidence for potential implants, like the thin, straight scars, usually on the shins or behind the ears. 11 cases, like I said, were the ones with implant. Multiple cases, though, vanishing pregnancies, and a lot of them just similar narrative. And now we get to the part that gets even kind of weirder.

Because at this point, you can maybe rationalize some of this, I would agree, sleep paralysis, false memories, coincidence, but the presentation ceremonies are really hard. Like, I don't know what, how do you, how is that. a common thread. The presentation ceremonies of the baby that keeps happening. Because like, remember that cold open. We talked when I opened up. Where they like feel like it's theirs and they bring it to them? They bring it to them. The girl was timid and afraid. The girl seemed to know who Kathy was, but Kathy, uh, didn't, rather the girl didn't seem to know who Kathy was, but Kathy knew

immediately, like a primal understanding. She told Hopkins afterward, quote, I always knew I had a daughter, a female child. And she, she was so, she was just certain of it for whatever reason. She said she hadn't known it consciously, but some part of her had been carrying that knowledge for years. Krathe cried when she met this child. She reached for the child, but she was not allowed to hold her the beings. Those same gray, clinical, short, emotionally dead beings kept her at a distance. They wanted her to see the child. They wanted to observe her reaction, but physical contact was apparently not part of the program. She would later name the child Emily.

Isn't that sweet? Beautiful. Giving her a name. That's what moms do. That's nice. Three years later, Kathy was taken again. This time,

she was shown two children. The first was a tiny baby, an infant boy she named Andrew. The second was Emily again. Older now, taller, but she could recognize the same. Emily again is a weird name.

Emily again. What does that mean, Emily again? Just Emily two? she was like a second Emily for when she when Emily like gets the second was Emily again oh was there was a word in there that I not say no no no you said the second was Emily comma again yeah yeah yeah yeah as in reference to the first Emily yeah yeah she named Emily and now she's back and now there's a baby and

Emily's back Emily again okay okay I get it I get it you were saying that there was a baby named Emily then another baby named to Andrew oh oh Another baby named Emily again. It's made more sense. I wrote it weird, I guess. I might have just lost the plot, but I thought that you were saying that there was Emily. Maybe another.

I thought there were three children in total. I have been awake for a day. I have. For a full fucking day. No, yeah. Three years later, she got taken again.

And then she was presented with two kids, the baby and Emily for a second time once again. We now check in again with Emily, who is older now. She's older now. She's older now. her same heart shaped face before the same humongous eyes

and then they told her something that really stunned her there weren't just two there were nine nine babies from her they got nine they got nine babies yes nine hybrid children that were hers

what am I even supposed to do with this information I like what does that mean what would you do what does that mean like did they like is there like a tank that has like that they all grew up once well they said they created, they were created from her genetic material over the course of years of abductions that she could barely remember. And so what would you, what would any mother do?

She named all of them. Of course. She named them Andrew, Elizabeth, Sarah, Peter, Caleb, Rebecca. Emily again. Emily's, no, Emily's in this. Emily, Paul and Larry. Larry. Larry are killing me, Larry. Larry's in there. We got a Larry in there. Good for him. We don't see too much. many Larry's anymore nowadays. No, you know what? No, we do not. I had a Larry the alien rocks. Yeah, Larry the alien probably is sick. Larry the hybrid. Yeah. Larry the hybrid. Nine children that she would obviously never raise, never hold for more than a few seconds, never see grow up outside of these brief viewings that were controlled entirely by these beings who watched her and kept her away like a lab specimen. All created and taken and every

single one of them, according to what Kathy was shown, existed somewhere out there in the universe, being raised in an environment she would never see by beings who could create life, but couldn't understand what it even meant to love. Just like my favorite movie, Jupiter ascending. Yeah, it feels like there's a moral here that we'd like you the reader to understand. Well, when she was asked, why do you think they showed them to you then? Like, why bring you there. Why not just take the genetic material and never let you even know if they were never, she was never able to interact with them fully?

And Kathy said something that is completely bizarre. I don't know how she knows this. She said, quote, they want to feel how I love it. What? Say, okay, they being the aliens. Yep. Want to know.

Want to feel how I love it. Kids, I'm assuming she means. Having children, nine children. Oh, probably having nine children. Yeah. Finding out that she has nine kids. suddenly being having children probably not that tight to be honest glad you figured it out because my brain could not figure out what she was what she talked about so uh they wanted she says like may they wanted to maybe observe human maternal emotion they wanted to study the bond between a mother and a child but never let her touch us again makes no sense and because uh because and this is hopkins interpretation

again backed by the patterns that he says he sees they couldn't feel it themselves which is a regular pattern in abduction cases with the grays generally. They seemingly are like pretty like robotic in nature and detached. A lot of times some remember with with Betty, they were inept and didn't understand what a zipper was and were fascinated by it. But they had the technology to create hybrid children. They can manipulate human genetics and perform these surgeries and erase memories and all this shit.

But they couldn't fucking love kids and they knew they couldn't. So according to Kathy, they brought her there to emanate love. I don't really, really know. They couldn't love kids. That's the, that's the message, I think. It's hard to love kids. Why I will never have them.

I love my nieces and nephew nephews. Well, man, kids are a lot. You know, nieces and nephews. Nephews. Nephews. Nephew. Freudian slip.

But for Hopkins, though, this was like heartbreaking for him. For what he really found this like a heartbreaking like endpoint that, that they couldn't like, get love so they had to abduct people to like show them love of their hybrid children. Kind of multiple kind of like poetically whack in a way, you know? Very poetic. Like if you can see there, I could see there being like a twilight zone about that. Right. Yeah.

Absolutely. I definitely. I'm sure there is one. It has like a title like their hearts where I see it in the depths of space is like the name of the episode. Multiple women in Hopkins research described presentation. ceremonies with eerily consistent details, though. Like Andrea, the 13-year-old virgin pregnancy case we talked about,

was also shown a tiny baby that she described pretty much identically. 12 inches long playing guitar. Seriously, 12 inches long. Densing black guys. You want to go through it all again? No, I've got it. I'm picturing the baby from the men in black when they pulled. I, every time I would write out the description, I had the same fucking thought.

It's the same. It's exactly what I'm thinking of. Yeah. See, when I have movie knowledge, it does show up in my head when I write. Yes, that's why I talk about it all the time. Can I really? This might be one of those things. It's on my mind now. Yeah.

As you go through all these women describing this, but I'm also so curious, but I feel like it's a thing for later. But I will simply put it out into the ether. When do these women describe these or abduction ordeal? This is all in the 80s, 70s and 80s. Right. But I mean, like how far after the abduction? did they say this we all I saw babies and the babies were presented to me versus when it actually happened I'm gonna say pro oh man each one is different um some of them some of them are like a decade or two right sure but not like they didn't say immediately like oh my god I saw my baby

last night that didn't happen no I do not not not as not as far as not like the next morning like you normally would expect. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no. Like, no, that's a thing. This is all through like hypnotism and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that kind of thing. A woman called Pam was apparently shown an infant that she described as pathetic, white-skinned, frail and sickly looking.

Yeah, not 12 inches. That's like that Seinfeld episode where they found the ugly baby. Oh, yeah. But in her, but her presentation to the baby was went a little differently than the others. the beings asked her to demonstrate something. They wanted to see how you nurse a baby. Oh, boy. They wanted her to show them how a human mother feeds an infant

because they didn't know how, so they needed a quite literal demonstration. Hard to us, madam, but your boobies seem to be a bit bigger than the other Earth girls' boobies. Do you think you could do a demonstration? Size of our binary star system. Susan Williams was shown her wise baby, one with same thing grayish pallor same size same sense that these children were not

quite yeah it's hopkins term for them we're not picturing like you know the paintings that are like of a of like a jesus that's like a little man that's what i'm picturing me say a wise baby i like that that's only a picture from now on probably a better better imagery um and they basically with her the same kind of thing they brought the children in observed her watched her emotional response, studied her and then took the babies away. Fucking what the hell, dude? Now, here's the case I told you to hold for because it gets again weird. Lucille Foreman was a psychotherapist.

This wasn't a random person plucked from the field like a lot of the other ones were. She was a practicing mental health professional with a graduate degree in years of clinical experience. She knew she said anyway, she knew what delusion looked and looked like. She knew what psychosis looked like. she knew what confabulation, which is a crazy word that she used in the book. Just making shit up. Yeah, just like, yeah, exactly.

Confabulation, I think is like making up lies and shit. And she knew what it was like to be prone to fantasy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. She was abducted in Provincetown, Massachusetts in 1985. So this is right as he's doing these books, unlike the others, which are decades after. This is happening right then. During her experience, she was given something, of the other women in Hopkins study received. Some context as to what the fuck was happening.

The beings actually communicated with her. And like a lot of people who talk about their interactions with the Grays, it was like a information. She described it, like as other abductees talk about now like information download. She says it was like an information instant transfer. Suddenly she just understood concepts and context as to what she was doing there that she didn't have.

Here is a trifold brochure. And anyone who talks about when this happens, they say it's fucking hard to explain. But she says like concepts just appeared in her mind instantly. Like the matrix. They were showing her what they were doing. Yeah. I need to know how to use guns.

I got to fly a helicopter. Whoa. So we're going to get some. Exactly. I have nine babies. I have nine babies. I should name them all. Larry.

My God. Emily. Just smack my microphone. According to her, the information she received was that their civilization was millions of years old. They had achieved things technologically that we can't begin to fathom to Jesse's point earlier about all this. But biologically, they were failing. Their genetic line was degrading and their children were dying before they could reach adulthood, failing in completely the body failing them in pre-adolescence, unable to sustain themselves.

And their species was looking down the shotgun barrel of extinction. She was shown a gray child, not a hybrid, like others had been. And she said it was visibly sick, failing, dying in front of her. And she said for that moment, the emotional weight of that moment hit her like, just like trauma would hit anybody. And she wanted to help them in that moment. And they told her the thing that Hopkins considered the, basically what he, I guess he would call it his personal Rosetta Stone of this entire investigation. They described their society as, quote, a culture without touching, feeling, and nurturing.

A civilization that had conquered interstellar travel or interdimensional travel, however they got here, but had lost the capacity for physical bonding. In other words, Mars needs moms. but it's an interesting thought experiment in the world now where again understanding LLMs and AIs are not what we believe AI to actually be but if we ever get to a point when we start integrating computers and true general AI to ourselves like if that's what these grays are a mix of biology and technology I imagine in the name of efficiency some of the first shit that goes is emotions if you're like look at the Borg if you want to go even further back to like just like Star Trek and stuff right like if we take this as real

and these things are part biology, part technology now, maybe at some point along the way, the way that shit just was stripped from them because it was useless to progressing rapidly into the stars or whatever the case may be. For like that basically the complete lack of raw warmth that mammals on earth seemingly have, and not seemingly do have,

that human mothers transmit to their kids with skin contact, which we know of through studies, is incredibly important in the first few hours of having your child, holding, nursing, thousand, like through a thousand small physical acts that the mother does of love and care, it's all imperative in those early moments of having a baby. And without that capacity for offspring, for our offspring, they couldn't thrive like they would with a mother in those early hours.

They were, according to them, not dying from like a virus or genetic defect that they could understand, but literally an absence for something they didn't even have a word for anymore. that's like so funny that it's like basically the same thing as like we have used up all of our planet's natural resources and we have come to yours to steal your it's like the same idea but just like emotional yeah yeah it is it is interesting yeah because every time we talk about this it's either we need for gold or we need for the babies we need for the i we can't remember a mother's love somehow in my mind i'm like wouldn't they just take it you know like why would they need to mess around with us just take the world and i would believe

it more if it was like no aliens they're just kind of like we don't give a shit about y'all and we're studying you end of sentence period it's nothing to do with like us we're fine we are superior to you it's cool y'all we don't need you to save our species or to give us stuff if we did we just take it we just think you're really weird uh like hairless apes and we think that shit's hilarious so we just stick stuff in you that would make more sense to me yeah and it makes more sense to me a lot of the ways it's just funny to us dummies you assholes yeah like we just it's fun okay this is what we go shut up yeah we're scientists we're studying you and we like to prod you i'd be like okay yeah that checks out yeah uh what I have the thought

too it's like it could also be all of these things right it could be if there's like as many things out there as like they like even within the grays maybe it is some of them are just doing that. Maybe others are trying to figure something out with genetics. I don't know if it's like their species is collapsing, but maybe there is something interesting with genetics that they are doing with people. I don't know. But as Lucille goes on to continue talking like about the experience, I really love this detail about it too. Because remember, she's a therapist. She recommends to the aliens that they read a book. She recommends a book to them. She suggested that they read Ashley Montag's touching. Y'all need a model.

Yeah, y'all need to read the Bible. No, she recommended the book touching the human significance of the skin, which is a real book about the importance of physical contact in human development. She just gave the aliens a reading assignment. Dan, we should give that to everyone on the internet. No shit. No. Oh, he only touched grass.

Touch another person. Actually, come take that back. Consensually touch another person. I like that. I like that. I like that bit. For me, this is like very human. of her and kind of makes it a little bit more believable that she's like well oh you're this is why

your species is dying here read this book start loving each other again uh she went full therapist on them and the uh but the clinical details matter here too lucille was was also shown an adolescent hybrid during this experience a young figure that she described as taller than than a child clearly approaching maturity with enormous blue eyes and that physical description matched kathy's emily different woman again different state different even totally different year in 1985 this is happening but same kind of kid same kind of child uh and this is where hopkins really like he he points to this case as not i don't want to say points to it as his smoking gun but the importance of this case uh really rings true when you read the book like this the 1985 case he's like oh this is just like

almost like a final puzzle piece for him to take all these experiences and be able to see a pattern Another pattern that Hopkins identified wasn't about any single case, but it was about bloodlines, like I mentioned earlier. And if you're paying attention, like, and this is what if you were paying attention, I mentioned earlier. I delivered that line I wrote terribly. This reframes everything from the isolated instance to something that looks like an awful lot like animal husbandry. And I kind of like see Hopkins point in that. The Davis family wasn't just Kathy. Remember, her mother, Mary had her own experience.

stretching back decades. Same thing, nightmares, missing time, the persistent feeling of being watched throughout her life, strange marks on her body as well. And then her sister Laura, Rick's reported similar phenomenon. Multiple generations of women in the same family, all describing the same type of experiences and all carrying the same inexplicable scars. And then there were the children, Kathy's young sons, Robbie and Tommy, both had experiences.

Robbie described nightmares about figures in his room with, again, the specificity of describing a gray. Tommy had similar reports, and both boys had the kind of night terrors that were consistent with recurring details each time, with details that matched each other and matched the broader pattern Hopkins was documenting in these studies.

So like, we're going to talking, grandmother, mother, and children all being visited, all being potentially used. And used as the word Hopkins kept circling back to and using himself. And Kathy's reaction to her children being involved was the only time in Hopkins' entire investigation where she expressed genuine white hot rage quote unquote not about what was like done for her specifically but again she'd

almost made a broken kind of like peace that anything that was happening to her um not really acceptance i wouldn't describe it as but just like she just had an inner peace with what was happening to her uh resigned awareness i guess is a good way to put it but uh she had known what was going on with her but when she learned about her kids, that really, that pissed her off wildly. She told Hopkins, and this is a direct quote, quote, when they start fooling around with the kids, like my little kids, Robbie and Tommy, I get really mad, not for myself or what they've done with me, but for my kids. And that's really the angriest quote that she, I could muster out of the book.

Okay. But Hopkins described it as a white, hot rage. So I believe. But that's, you know, if true, I can, I can. can see that for for these like and if the context is true like the irony is that from the being's perspective we take hopkins framework seriously is they were doing exactly what they'd done with mary and with mary's mother before her for all anyone knew they weren't singling out robbie and to be cruel they were continuing the study the same way geneticist tracks like

traips through multiple generations of tagging an animal yeah yep Hopkins saw this as evidence of a systematic, multi-generational genetic monitoring program now. Whatever criteria, the beings used to select subjects, he didn't even, to his credit, he didn't pretend to know what those criteria were. They tracked families just across time. Again, he points to grandmother, mother, daughter, grandchildren. Each generation observed, then sampled, potentially utilized in a breeding program. The Copley Woods landing in 1983 wasn't the beginning of the Davis family contact as he

learned and went on. It was just the event that really brought him in and made him lose his mind researching all this shit. Because he did. To the abyss, as you say. Exactly correct. Exactly why I use that definition, dude. You jump in and you just, it never ends. There's no bottom.

And then you think you're deeper than you are. So when you swim to the surface, you're like, this is going to take a minute. And you get to the surface really quickly. And it's very confusing and disorienting the shit. It's frustrating in so many ways. Other cases, Hopkins files showed identical generational patterns too. Parents and children both reporting abduction experiences independently, grandparents with lifetime histories of strange events who only mentioned them when their

grandchildren started having them too. Hopkins argued that the beings were engaged in what amounted to long-term breeding study of specific human genetic lineages, returning to the same families again and again, generation after generation with the kind of like of just like scientific patients that we were talking about as far back as their memories go. So let's talk about the physical evidence of all this because obviously all hypnosis, it's all subjective is entirely valid for those who are screaming it. And because you're right to push back on that hypnotic testimony, as we'll say every time we talk about it is unreliable. We know this. Hopkins knew this.

And that's precisely why he wasn't. It's something, but it's not definitive. You can't do anything with it. You literally can't. It's not definitive. Exactly. Which is why he wasn't just collecting stories. It's the reason he was collecting things all along the way.

Measurable, testable, independently verifiable things were what he was looking for. And while no single piece of physical evidence proves the abduction narrative is 100% real, the accumulation evidence, which is also what happens time and again in these UFO stories, is what makes them so hard to fully dismiss entirely. Let's start with the soil. The samples from Copley Woods were independently analyzed at a laboratory. The molecular changes in the soil, the color alteration, the structural changes, could only be replicated by subjecting, as we said,

the soil to the extreme temperatures of 800 degrees Fahrenheit. That's it. Then there are the scars. 27 abductees in Hopkins research. 27 separate individuals, many of whom had never met each other, displayed similar, unexplained marks, thin, straight lines like surgical incisions, consistent placement predominantly on shins behind ears and on lower legs, like nothing seemingly random in the pattern there. And all of them were like not accompanied by a giant scrape or a bruise.

It was always just a simple little line that wasn't there before and now was. All 27 people all having matching scars in the same three or so places. Thinking about it as like wildlife research kind of like gives it a vibe, doesn't it? Yeah. When I learned that theory a long time ago, like I'd make sense to me. Like if we were to take these things as like physical nuts and bolts aliens that are here for some physical reason, humans aren't special.

Life that would mean life is teaming in the universe probably. But if we're a curiosity, because if you look, even if you zoom out, like our planet and our, we're like in a weird back end part of the galaxy where we are in kind of a dangerous place and that we're only really allowed to live because Jupiter is in our solar system and that's it. Like Earth having life is unique only in that

we're in a weird part of the galaxy and there's life here. True. But like maybe that's it. Maybe that's just it. And we're just like a bunch of angry semi-sensient apes. And that's it. I know. I'm going to say that part's not a theory.

That part's true. We're just a bunch of semi-sentient angry apes. That's without dispute. It doesn't sound like me. I'm more like an al-a-ranging 10. You know what I mean? Yeah. I do know what you mean.

As a matter of fact. Yeah. Yeah. Now, no one had ever gotten these implants removed and tested at the time of the book, but it did come later in the field's history with varying degrees of credibility. But Hopkins contribution here was more docketing. documenting it and not really pulling the implants out at all. Then there were the vanishing pregnancies.

Again, the multiple women, Kathy, Andrea, Susan, Pam, and others had medically confirmed pregnancies that simply terminated with no physical evidence. Like, these are medically on paper, all of them. No bleeding, no cramping, no expelled tissues. None of that shit. Positive pregnancy tests and then gone. Their OBGYNs were left confused. Actual doctors confirming actual pregnancies and vanishing is another one that I'm just like,

what the fuck i don't i'm not saying it's not possible maybe there was only false positives i don't fucking know sure but i don't know maybe modern science now after 40 50 years or whatever it's been has caught up and maybe there is a reason for this stuff i i didn't look into it uh then there's the witness corroboration that we've already discussed joyce lloyd's independent account on the uh of the june 30th event sinking perfectly with kathes and timing and detail and then there was dr elizabeth slater's psychological evaluation um which is this is also important so let me explain what happened here because it's one of the strongest pieces of evidence in this book for me, not for aliens,

but for the reality of the experiencer's trauma specifically. Because again, I fully believe maybe something happened doesn't have to be aliens. So Hopkinsor-Rage, Dr. Slater, who was a legitimate clinical psychologist with no stake in UFO research, to perform blind psychological testing on nine of his abductees. Blind meaning she was given no information whatsoever about why these people were being tested.

She didn't know they claimed to be abductees. She didn't know they were connected to Hopkins research. She was just handed nine subjects and a standard battery of psychological instruments. The MMPI, Roershack, the works of the time, and was told to evaluate them. And her findings were unambiguous. No psychopathology. Of all nine, zero, none of them showed signs of mental illness, psychotic features, delusional thinking, fantasy proneness, histrionic personality disorder,

or any of the other psychological conditions that skeptics typically like to invoke to explain abductions. These were psychologically healthy people. Histrionic personality disorder, dude. What the hell? They threw them through the 1980 fuck five ringer. Yeah.

And this is another part is what Dr. Slater did find was a consistent pattern she described as identity disturbance, weariness, hypervigilance, low self-esteem, and a pervasive sense of having been violated in ways they couldn't fully articulate. She identified what she called a quote unquote subtle but consistent psychological profile that was indistinguishable from trauma victims. So like, again, she doesn't know any of the alien stuff.

She's just saying these nine people have clearly gone through some trauma and potential like violation, just trauma. And these were people who had experienced something very real and damaging to their psyche and it left the same psychological fingerprint as sexual assault, childhood abuse, or combat exposure. Like those are what she's like, these people. Serious shit. Yeah.

Serious shit. When she was later, after all this was done, told the context that these people were claiming alien abduction experiences. Dr. Slater said her findings didn't change. But again, she didn't change the findings to say aliens caused it. She just said they've gone through something, whether it's aliens, like, Like, that's not her to decide.

They've just gone through something. Whatever happened to these people, the psychological impact was genuine, measurable, and consistent with real traumatic experiences rather than imagine or fabricated narratives. So I just think that for me was like the big, okay, something happened. It could be the way the brain processes what happened to them is aliens, right? Like, it could be that that's how the brain phrase it to keep your brain safe. It's pretty similar between them for that, right? Yeah.

it's crazy similar between them all. Across nine unrelated people, all presenting with the same psychological profile, all claiming the same basic experience, none of them mentally ill, all of them genuinely traumatized. Whatever that means, though, is,

and this is where the part of being in this abyss of research comes to, is like, I hand you that information. You have to figure out what that means to you. Because who knows. Who fucking knows what that means? So what did Hobbskin, Bud Hopkins make of all this himself?

After years of investigation, hundreds of hours of interviews, medical consultations, lab analysis, and cross-referencing across dozens of cases, what was his conclusion? He settled on a phrase that I think, for him, perfectly captures the weird moral ambiguity of the whole thing. He said the UFO occupants appeared to exist in a, quote, strangely mixed, nearly incomprehensible, ethical world. neither gods nor devils, neither saviors nor invaders, neutral in something else. His framework looked like, kind of like the beings were technologically superior to humans in ways that were essentially incomprehensible, magic, right? They could paralyze people, do all the stuff that we talked about. But they were also very needy, desperate, maybe even, according to Hopkins.

Their species was genetically failing. Their children were dying. They had lost or never even developed the capacity for emotional. bonding that we mammals or humans have that rely on for healthy development. So they were doing what any sufficiently advanced but desperate civilization might do. They were trying to fix the problem with the tools they had. Crossbreeding. Hybridization.

That's like again, you take it at face value. Right, right, right. Like that's what it is. Yes. They needed human genetic material and they needed something even harder to harvest. The ability to feel emotion and to bond and to love. That's why these weird child presentation ceremonies seemingly existed.

They weren't like, it's just, it's hard to, this is Hopkins. I don't know what else to say. Like, he believes that that's what this is all about. Hopkins identified two distinct reproductive methods across his cases. First, artificial insemination where a human woman would be impregnated, allowed to carry for two to three months, and then the fetus would be removed. Second, direct over retrieval, the laparoscopy procedure where eggs were harvested from the women's ovaries for fertilization somewhere else.

So it's like they were even trying multiple different ways to see which one worked better. And the end result, regardless of the of the case, was a hybrid child of some part, part human, part gray, raised in an unknown environment on a spaceship baby and periodically shown to their human biological mother so the beings could watch the mom be sick. Oh, I hate that. That noise sucked. Yeah, no, that's awful. Hopkins viewed the whole thing as basically a conservation breeding program now,

which is not a bad analogy, I guess. And I think Hopkins would have appreciated, like, looking at it that way, except we're the golden, like golden lion tamarins in this scenario. Like, you know, the useful, the useful monkeys. Okay. We didn't volunteer for this program, but they're coming knocking on our door and being the zookeepers are here to. to take what they want, whether we're screaming or not.

With useful monkeys. Yep. Yeah, we're the useful monkeys to them right now. Now, there's obviously the theory, too, that these grays are also future humans who have also lost the ability to procreate due to a deteriorating DNA and genetic coding. And they're for the same reasons are doing the hybriding program, hybriding program, but they are humans from the future and not aliens from a dying world that need genetics. They just might as well be.

Okay. Because they're so far from the future. They're from the future where humans are forced to live underground. And that's why they got shorter like more. Yes, exactly. You're like that's exactly correct. Like grays are morelocks. That's just what's in our genes is to look like that.

Well, after we spent thousands of years underground. I don't know about this, man. Because we likely nuke the world. That's like cave rat humans. Yeah. They're still just like, again. forced underground for thousands of years. We have all this technology and can in fact go back in time or nonsense, but like also

can't fix the fact that we are gray's and cannot have kids. And we never will. Yeah. All right. Those are the rules, I guess. We can't cheat death. We can't breed without human contact. Yeah.

Unless you want to become a gray in which case. Yes. In which case, fucky. Get nasty. I've tried voluntary. tearing and they have not come for me and I have not come for them my man I wish I would as we wrap this episode up as we get to the end here I do want to like I want to ask you like because this is one of those things we're like I don't think the interesting question here is this is

is this real like that's just not interesting because it doesn't you go different ways but what just assuming it is what does it mean for humanity are we going to be eventually useless or are we going to end up being one with the grays? I don't know. Are we useful now? Is that is that? We're useful for now, but what if it ends up not being successful? Are we useful now? Yeah. I don't know. Well, our genes are and our eggs and sperm are, I guess. I guess. I guess for them we are. Yeah. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I'm just trying to find a better, like a better angle to wrap this thing on. I get it. But Kathy Davis, I'm going to leave you with a quote here. Kathy Davis at a support group gathering in 1986 said something that that sticks around a lot.

She was talking about the October 1983 presentation and the first time she saw Emily and she said this about her child. Quote, all I wanted to do was hold her. She looked so pathetic. They told me I would see her again. That's why I don't want them not to come back. They told me I couldn't take care of her because I couldn't feed her and she would die if she was with me.

Okay. A tragic story of a mother and her child. an impossible distance between them, and the only bridge is a species that wasn't built for understanding emotions. It's a tragic story at the heart of it, one of motherhood. So if you have children, hug them tight, because maybe you might have another hybrid child out there. And on this Valentine's Day,

consider yourself lucky that you have the ability to feel. I love it. That's the hybrid breeding program, boy, and the origin is on the origin. yeah what else is there that is the hybrid breeding program that is it that is the crazy that we tied this to valentines but more importantly

uh i still love of a mother is like a love no other could feel on valentine's day creepy it's weird it's like some some boy mom shit that's weird that's weird as hell like no girl's good enough for my boy like that's creepy but with that said i'm still I'm obsessed with like we need to do

a hypnosis episode because I feel like every one of these stories is like oh they were going through this stuff but hypnosis relies on hypnosis yeah heavily based on hypnosis everything is like the entire crux of everything

we're saying to it was because under hypnosis people said this and so we hypnotize the shit out of them yeah it's removed the story of the breeding program There's still the stuff of like the light and the burnt grass and the soil and then the. But again, was that after was that hypnosis brought that out? Well, no, the letter brought him out and he went to test the soil, the soil and stuff when

she was there because the neighbor also saw the bright light and stuff like that happened. So that, they get there's that. But again, that's like, that's some weird shit. Yeah. Okay. That's weird. But does like, could it be that the weird soil thing was whatever the light was caused the weird soil and that's it period end of statement we just don't know yeah and then the hypnosis was like

that light in the soil aliens you know what i mean right right right right that's exactly correct they're like there's the drawn line is like where we know physically happen there for evidence and then where hypnosis picks up the story and fills in yes the blanks i feel like the best you can say is like but the psychological evaluation of them having gone through trauma i think is also very valuable that's true it's just it's frustrating that yeah exactly frustrated it's frustrating is why I call it an abyss. It is infinite and painful. But yeah,

that's the breeding program. Like, man, that is it. Like, that's, like everything we talk that it persists in alien lore about the breeding program is all right here in the story.

Every single piece of it. Or whoever she is. Yeah, Kathy. Yeah. Well, yeah, her real name is something else.

But, yeah, no, but that's, that's what, which is what I find often more fascinating as well about the stuff, a lot of the stuff that makes it into lore

and sticks around forever, you can trace it back to like one person or in this, in this instance, like a bunch of people, but Hopkins being the one person who really made it popular, but they get lost in it all so fast as it grows beyond his studies because he got his studies, which are valuable. And then everything that exploded out of it is less so because it's just everybody saying everything all the time. So who knows? I don't know.

It's fascinating. But that's where we're leaving the hybrid breeding program for your, Valentine's Day. Kind of an alien basics. I'm surprised we never covered before. But that's it. We're going to head off to do a minisode. Next week is not me.

It's a special episode for one of these other boys. Alex, I think, has next week, right? I'm next week. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just so fascinated at how, how fascinated everybody was with getting pumped for semen and bred by aliens. I know.

Specifically. I wish they would let me. What do you mean? I just, I just can't stop thinking about it. The way you describe it is really funny, is what I'm saying. Well, he always ties it back to like, it's like the origin myth of all of this like come-swapping alien. It's like the core of the whole mythology.

It is. It's kind of weird. Anyway. It is, isn't it? Yeah. Happy Valentine's Day, everyone. It's your own Minnesota, patreon.com, that's Trulminati pod. We appreciate you.

We love you a little son next year on this Valentine's Day. Bye. Bye. Hi. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Trulminati podcast. As always, I'm one of your host, Mike Martin, joined by the... I don't know who they are.

There's two... Perens Hill and Bud Spencer. No. Neo and Trinity. No. I don't understand, and I probably never will. Let me just tell you right now that Kennedy and Claire Redfield... I'm telling you, I think he literally just looked up, famous duos.

Cheech and Chalk. And he's been going through the list ever since. I'm trying to dig deep. Which one of you is Dick Powell? Me? Your name's Jesse Cox. You know, I want my mind. Tolluminati, I want my body.

As always, I'm one of your hosts, Mike Martin, joined by Alex and Jesse.