Chilluminati Podcast - Episode 365: Bill Cooper Part 2

Episode Date: September 13, 2026

Mathas tells Alex and Jesse all about the ACTUAL life of Bill Cooper, based on the book “Pale Horse Rider”, in the second part of this double bill (not cooper).CHILLUMINATI is a weekly comedy podcast hosted by Mike Martin, Jesse Cox and Alex Faciane. Hold on to your tin-foil hats and traverse the realms of the mysterious, supernatural, spooky and sometimes truly horrible - and your third eye will never be the same!Subscribe to our Patreon to support us and for extra content like full video episodes, weekly Minisodes, exclusive art, and more at http://patreon.com/CHILLUMINATIPODThank you to our sponsors:FACTOR: Head to www.factormeals.com/chill50off and use code chill50off to get 50 percent off and 1 free breakfast item per box for 1 year, while supplies last until 10/31/2026.OFFICIAL MERCH: https://theyetee.com/chilluminatiMike Martin - http://www.youtube.com/@themoleculemindset Jesse Cox - http://www.youtube.com/jessecox Alex Faciane - https://www.youtube.com/@StarWarsOldCanonBookClub/Editor: DeanCutty Producer: Hilde @ https://bsky.app/profile/heksen.bsky.social Show Art: Studio Melectro @ http://www.instagram.com/studio_melectro Logo Design: Shawn JPB @ https://twitter.com/JetpackBragginEpisode SourcesBehold The Pale Horse by Bill Cooper Pale Horse Rider by Mark Jacobson

Hello everybody and welcome back to the Chulamani podcast episode 366. As always, I'm one of your host, Mike Martin, joined by my two favorite L.A. boys, Jesse and Alex. Oh, hi. Stop it. It's us. Welcome back to L.A. Jesse. Hey, it's so nice. The Lassianaga brothers, we're out here.

I, uh, I just want to let you know, the last episode was so long. And I was sitting on a not comfortable seat so long that my butt still hurts. Days later. I'm sorry. Dude, I knew we were in trouble when I looked at the timer and it said an hour and 15. I was on page six. I was like, I'm going to talk to a bit.

Yeah. I was like, I was like, I just can't take a breath to give you a beat to say anything. I need to just, let's go through a couple pages. It's not your fault. That was everything you said was more insane than the last thing you said.

That I really did. I really went like deep in the conspiracy hole after after, just nothing like crazy. I just like. a bunch about the Rockefellers, for example. Like I read like the entire family. I just read about the Rockefellers. I just read like the entire family history of the Rockefellers and like how crazy it is,

like the kind of power that the rich have always wielded in this country. It's just nuts, man. It's not just insane. Exactly. It's a lot going on. Obviously today's Bill Cooper too. I kind of want to jump right into it as fast as we can so we can get moving. Because this one's longer.

No, it's not. It is not as long as last week. But I don't know how long it'll be as we read through this. But please go over to patreon.com slash Jeluminati pod and support us over there. You're like, man, I need even more hours of these guys. Look, it's good to have, you know, to know that we do our jobs well, that we go deep the way nobody else ever does. And honestly, who else is giving you this perspective? Who else is driving it?

This is so deep. Yeah, exactly. Who else is hitting all the spots? No one else hits. Seriously. The reason this series got was supposed to be earlier in like a week before I was like, I have to delay this. Like by another two more months is just too much to talk about. And even the amount we talked about, there's so much more.

It's kind of the origin of the multi, like this current cinematic universe. In a lot of ways. And yet, he stole so much as well. Like, of course, of course he did. Again, we even talked about it last week a bit. Just like in real comics. Yeah. Just like in real comic books.

So yeah, last week I gave you Bill Cooper, the way Bill Cooper presented himself to the world. It was maybe, is it our longest episode yet at three and a half hours for better or worse? I know I've done some goddamn long ones. So I don't know. It might be a high. I've done some long. I know I've done some long fuckers. But today, we're going to do what we always do in series like this.

We are going to talk about Bill Cooper, the man for who he was from his birth to his death. And every time we come across something that we talked about in part one, we will talk about the truth behind it, whether there's any truth to it at all, fully truthful or a complete lie. I, you know, we've got the receipts at this point now. Um, and we're going to go through them as we go. The main source for tonight is the book, Hail Horse Rider by Mark Jacobson, published in 2018. Uh, Jacobson was a New York magazine writer, uh, who kind of went out of his way to do a lot

of research about this guy because he found interest in him. And he went and interviewed a ton of people from his ex-wives, kids, John Lear. There's also a lot of literal government paperwork behind Bill Cooper that we have is a primary source. So there's a lot on Bill Cooper out there as to who this man was. I have some serious questions about this man's military service record. We're going to go first and, yeah, no, I know. But that's what I want to know about them. I am champing at the bit to learn how legit this dude is in some specific ways.

Well, let's get right into it then. Milton William Cooper was born May 6th, 1940. in Long Beach, California, into an Air Force family, which means, you know, that he's born and kind of lives on bases a lot of his younger life. That part is true. His father, Milton Vance Cooper, who was a pilot who started in open cockpit biplanes, and everybody called Father Jack. So everybody ended up calling Cooper little Jackie. His mother is Jack. Yeah, that was just his dad's nickname was Father Jack.

Is that what your dad's nickname is, too? Yeah, called him. Father. No, I don't call him Father Jack. No. I call your dad father Jack. And he appreciates it. Yeah. I refer to him privately as Father Jack, but I would never say it to his face. Yeah. Right, right, right. His mother is Dovey, who Bill described. Dovey. D-O-V-I-E. So, lovey-dovey for sure, right? Lovey, W-D-W-E-W-E-F-U-Sure. And Bill describes her 50 years later as a Southern Bell, the kindest and gentlest woman he ever did know.

A Southern Bell. Yeah, that's described Long Beach, California? We'll get into it. And the type of woman men dream about when they are lonely is how he described his own mother. He described his mother that way?

The fuck? Like what? Like what the fuck? My next line is that is Bill the son in writing. Agent Dr. Freud. Like what? What?

Like, okay, you can say anything you want about your mom, sex, like sex object. Wait, what? That's where the sentence ends? It's just like, he's like, anything you want to say about your mom and he's like, fuckable, like, it's just lonely men daydream about my mother. Like, how is that where he went? I don't know.

I don't know. All right. No. And then he had a twin siblings after him, Connie and Ronnie. Connie and Ronnie. Stop! Connie and Ronnie Cooper? Yep.

Yeah, that's true. Connie Ronnie and Milton. Do you think if you ask Connie? and or Ronnie what they think of their sibling. Let them be their own super sexy. Let them be their own people. Like, you know, they're my twin and they're hot. The kind of,

the kind of sibling you dream of when you're alone. And everything else about this man's childhood, other than his family is just military bases. He even talks about one memory where a B-29 ended up crashing on a one on a runway in the Azores when he is nine years old and he remembers men on fire running around in the night as like the wreck was piled up on the side of the runway and shit. Very traumatic memory.

I imagine as a nine year old. Yeah. That's like the real area 51. That's like the real. Yeah. Yeah. That's that fucked. I would fuck me up as a nine year old.

Um, and with Bill's father in the book, he says flat out that he did not always love his dad that father Jack believed in quote, the belt. Uh, And that bill was a sensitive but willful kid who for whom rules did not mean much until he got caught breaking them. And then at the thought, his dad became a mad tyrant pulling out the belt and just being it. That was just a lot of parents did that. I feel like it wasn't that. I feel like it wasn't that.

Gosh. Like it wasn't that frowned upon to do at the time. It definitely wasn't, especially in the 40s and 50s. You know, like I feel like not hitting kids as recent as of. like millennials. I it's funny like when you watch a show now that's like about then like one of the characters inevitably turns to somebody else and they're like I don't mind beating the shit out of my son and wife.

It's very true. They're like oh you know it's like the 60s. They're like you know early 70s maybe. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's true. But because of this the way his dad treated him, it kind of ended up. breeding this need for Cooper and kind of for the rest of his young life at the very least

a need for Bill Cooper for his father to respect him like Bill wanted almost nothing more than for his own dad to look at him with like respect and approval which happens a lot in abused kids you get the Stockholm kind of syndrome of like I just want my parents to you think that maybe it'll be better if you can yeah yeah the idea of like I'm sure at some point he said to them like, you know, you're making me do this, right? Like that kind of thing. So. And so Bill was a kid with no real hometown because he lived on military bases and moved

around a lot. So we had no like a lot of friends his age. So we ended up having instead was a radio. And he listened to the armed forces radio. And he very much loved like the American songbook that was. through the radio at the time. And Sam Cook, who Bill will tell you until the day he died, was the greatest singer who ever lived was one of the favorite,

his favorite people to listen to. He can be right about it. It's arguably correct. See, he can be wrong. I write about a couple of things. And at Tachikawa Air Base outside Tokyo, around 16 years old, he gets his own radio show, Radio Teen. And he calls himself The Mad Lad.

That's his nickname he gave himself on radio. And he's, that's like a gamer, dude. Yeah, I think I played with that guy before. Yeah, I think that dude has dunked the balls of his character into my character's mouth before. And he is convinced, and he actually will say this on the air in 1999, that hundreds of teenagers across Japan were dancing to his records and millions of Chinese kids were listening across the water until the communist jammed him. Bill Cooper at 16, a DJ with a tiny signal at that point, uh, and a, a story. about millions of listeners kind of talks about this. And he really builds his personality around the attention he gets,

the small amount of attention he gets as this radio DJ. A little sociopath. A little bit. Like, yeah, a little bit of that kind of feeding that sociopathic. I wouldn't necessarily call him a sociopath, but he's really close to one, I would say. A couple other things. Actually, we'll move over to 1962, which is he's now 19.

three years later, and everyone is now assuming little Jackie is going to be just like his dad, father, Jackie, and become an officer in the military. But instead, he lists and lists in the Air Force as a grunt. He ends up in Strategic Air Command, Shepard Air Force Base out in Texas, maintaining B-52s, and a few days after he gets there, the Cuban Missile Crisis breaks out. And he writes in all capital letters that he saw really, Neil atomic bombs and worked around them daily. And I honestly believe him because kind of that's what the job was.

You could buy fucking radiated metals in like a kid's fucking nuclear kit at that time. I don't doubt that he was around nukes at all. Yeah. 100%. Exactly. Which brings us to November 22nd, 1963. In part one, I read you that Bill's account of the assassination of, remember, of JFK. Yeah.

These little reach over the shoulder. the driver. Right. Exactly. Whack ass. Whackass theory, I want to say. He said he's the charge. He is the charge of quarters that day,

alone in the squadron office. He turns on the television and watches the motorcade in Dallas and sees it happens. In his own words, I italicize in the book. I saw what happened. President Kennedy had been shot right in front of our eyes. The motorcade obviously was not televised, was not televised live. Nobody in America watched the shooting on TV that afternoon,

but anybody with a library card could have checked that. that in 1991 and Jacobson, to his credit, just says it in the book. Or he says no. And then he says the thing, I think, kind of the theme of the whole episode, that that is not the point. Bill needed to have seen it with his own eyes because even if you couldn't have seen it, his story relied on the fact that he says he has seen it with his own eyes because Bill is about to spend the rest of his life after this point telling you the driver did it and that he can see the gun and that the man.

and that the man puts himself at the window, and he always puts himself at the window. And remember, like, we talked about this in the first episode. This is, like, the first brick, the first building block of Bill's lies that he begins to place early in his life to build the mythology around what he is going to purport to be the world as reality. Does that make sense? It's so whack because it's like something that he's claiming.

that there's evidence of that when you look at it, it immediately invalidates his own theory. And it's like so immediate. It's just like it immediately he's like, you're like, oh, so he's just like, he's just like already. Like you just, none of it is true. It would be as silly as someone saying they were at ground zero on 9-11

or they had two firefighters carry them away from a collapsing building. Really fuckable, dude. Or say that they sent 100 men to go work at the ground zero site when there's no

evidence of any of it. And in fact, it's been proven multiple. There's evidence to the contract. And luckily we don't live in an era where someone like that. Yeah, like an asshole like that exists. This is the age of information, dude.

This is the age of information. You can't be so silly as to think that you can escape fact checks. But that's what's crazy. It's like, get enough away the date, you know, again, 1991 is like writer when his book gets released and his own mythology is built. If you say you saw it televised and nobody and we've learned in real time in our own

lives, like people don't tend to fact check. You're just going to believe it. But like once you look, it's like, wait a minute, the assassination was not televised live on TV that day. His whole first point is negate. But how many people know, like that's the thing is that's how many people know that information how many people like you said will fact check people will believe this is the problem i think with like you know how on youtube shorts or tic talks or whatever they'll be like a streamer or someone who has a hot take and because they've got like an authoritative voice or something people are like yo that guy knows what's up and there is bullshitting on a stream yeah and they have no they're not backing up but just like the way they present the information makes it seem like they know a thing

and that's what he's doing except in book form. And he's like, I'm a professional. I know what I'm talking about. So just listen to me. Don't even look into it. It's late, but that's what I do.

I mean, that's what I do too. But like it's, like it's those other people. Like all you have to do is throw on like a reflective vest and have a clipboard. And most people will just let you into their establishment. You don't even have to do it. Dude,

like, when you try to like do like a phone prank or something, you can like just, it's like, it's like almost sad how gullible everybody is now. It's, it's everybody. nobody like I don't know

AI ruined everything nobody knows how anything's supposed to be it sucks which we're going to talk about AI in the minisode today because create some crazy developments in the AI world so head over to pageline dot com slash NuttyPod should I be aware of that? What if we live in the simulation

that AI is creating to see how humans could have interacted with AI on a friendly level if it was integrated like in its everyday and we're just seeing it's running different scenarios This is very close to a game that I don't want to mention simply because it's a spoiler for that game. But Arcane made it. And I'll leave it at that.

This is very close to a movie that I'm not going to spoil, but a guy goes backwards in slow motion in it. All right. So let's move forward from his Air Force career to 1996, our 1966, where he takes his discharge from the Air Force and then immediately enlists in the Navy. because his seasickness, he says, has cleared up. And because his plan is to serve in all four branches of the military, which nobody in his family has done. He's going for the egot of the military? He's going for the egot of the military.

Again, weird. Again, you could trace it back to my mind. You can trace it right back to him being like, do you prove me now, dad? Like, I served in all military branches. Do you respect me now? I have the Milgert, dad. I have the Milger.

To be clear, if his father is who he says he is, the response of an asshole dad would be you couldn't stick to one, could you? You're a quitter. You're a quitter. Fucking Alswearingian and Hot Rod. Yeah. I've never seen Hot Rod.

Great movie. Not relevant enough to the show for you to figure out some way to make us watching it part of the show, but still a worthwhile watch. Thank you so much to Factor for sponsoring today's episode. Here's a cycle I finally admit I'm stuck in. Every week I do this hopeful grocery run. Buy the veggie.

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and use code Chill 50 off to get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box for one year. While supplies last until October 31st, 2026. That's code chill 50 off at factormeals.com slash chill 50 off. Thank you again, The Factor for sponsoring today's episode. So now he's back in the Navy. And within his first year, he's on the submarine, the USS TIRU, which we did talk about last week. Now, in part one version, 1966, we talked about how the TIRU is crossing the Pacific.

Cooper's port lookout in a supposed metal craft, bigger than a football field. You said aircraft carriers. Big aircraft carriers is a similar size. Bigger than a football field and aircraft carrier, two different things. Aircraft carrier size. Aircraft carries out of the clouds. I guess you're right. Touche.

you know you're right I'm just I'm fucking yeah it comes goes into the ocean comes back out does it again it tilts a little bit remember it looks like Sonic the Hedgehog island coming out of the ocean is what I'm imagining exactly the emerald island you know what I'm saying you know so weird I know that reference you know what I'm saying and so he says he's not the only one he saw who saw it the bridge people on the bridge saw it captain included and then a naval intelligence commander gets him alone with his service record. Remember, yells at him and says, are you going to change the answer to saying you saw nothing? You didn't see a damn thing. You're going to be a good sailor Cooper. There are four lights. Exactly. But the record, the first time this story exists anywhere is the summer

of 1988, 22 years after this happened as a post on a UFO bulletin board called Parenthet run out of a house in Fountain Hills, Arizona by a 24-year-old named Jim Spizer. There is no paperwork. It's whack. It's whack. No 1966 paperwork. No other crewmen have said anything about it or come forward about it. Like, there's no evidence in any form that this ever, ever happened.

That's because it was destroyed, dude. But that, okay, we can't go into that. You're right. You're right, Jesse. I'm going to take the U position on this. How am I to prove that the paperwork was not just destroyed? You're right. That's why I'm right.

You're right. You're right. That's what I always say. Bill Cooper asks for a combat zone, and he actually gets one. Naval support activity out of Dong Ha on the Kuwait River in Kwongtri province, which we talked about last week, a dozen kilometers from the DMZ arriving in the tail end of the Tet offensive. That's when he's getting in there. He's quartermaster second class, boat captain on a PBR, which is a fiberglass hall, which we talked about last week with machine guns on it.

Like apocalypse now is what you're saying? See, like you said, last week. Rockets on the river about every hour. In training, he made a friend named Bob Barron, and the two of them made a pack. If one bought it, the other would drink a bottle of scotch in his memory and break the bottle on the rocks. It's just a shot it away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like we're right there.

Yeah. Well, Baron ended up shipping to the river three weeks ahead of him and got hit on one of his first patrols. And they found his boat later shot full of holes and twisted up, quote, like a pretzel. Bill writes that from the day it was a personal, like a personal war. From that day on, it was like a personal war for him. And that once he got his own boat, his crew engaged the enemy more than any boat that ever ran the river. and he never lost another man. More than any boat.

On any other river river. We just a kiss away. We, I don't. I do not dispute. We can also do CCR if you need it, Mathis. We got you. Yeah, I would appreciate it. We can do fortune, son.

Don't worry. I'll work very well for this. Yeah, we won't get flagged. There's no dispute about his service. I don't dispute his. He did have a combat, like combat on his armed, forces achievement metal records. He had a call sign on the river.

His call sign was Stinger. And the last broadcast of his life and the night he was killed was him reading emails from the men who served on that river. Yeah, the day he died that the day he died, Bill Cooper at the end of his life. Oh, I thought you meant the dude who died on the river died reading emails. And I was like, and people believe this? No, no, no, no. Dearest.

No, no, no. That's like computer. Yeah. Okay. All right. No, I follow. I follow you. All right. Yeah, yeah. He was, he was reading emails from the men who served on that river and found him like 30 years later. So like we know all of that is real. We can say that about his service. We cannot confirm whether he got into more combats than any other boat on the river. But he absolutely saw combat during Vietnam. And if anybody has done any sort of like historical like research on Vietnam, that war was a nightmare. Like, what's, what's, it was horrified. It's, I'd be interesting. I talk about it a lot in, in JFK, if you want to like get into it. Yes.

Yes. I'd be interested to know what his sort of like, you know, one of the things I've noticed about Vietnam especially, I don't know that any other wars, you know, how soldiers of those react. But Vietnam, most of the soldiers that came home don't like talking about Vietnam. Yeah. And in, in fact, most of the people who are. came home or upset about the way they were treated when they got home because they're like,

I was just a kid man. I came home and they spit on me. Like that's, that's kind of the vibe of soldiers coming home from NOM, which is very different from, you know, Gulf War, et cetera, et cetera. So I be, I'm curious to know if he like bragged about like, it seems like he's bragging about it, which is not a thing I've seen a lot of, you know, soldiers from Vietnam do. This guy controls his own world though. This guy like literally like describes his own reality. I would this could be as much a lie that's devious on his part as it is like a way of him coping you're right something that he fucking hates in his life you know what I mean yeah a horrific time where his fucking friend died you know what I mean yeah he did lose his friend

player and he saw combat God knows what other horrible injuries he ended up seeing or the lives he ended up taking or other people took so it had to be awesome you know what I mean yeah it's so sick dude it was so so so sick The other thing we have no records of, though, from him, Vietnam, are the lights in the sky that he supposedly saw with all of his crewmates. We don't have any hard evidence that any such thing happened while he was there. Now, now in 19, by 1971, after nine months on the river and then a year more at sea, he ends up getting himself what he calls a quote, fat cat, good dunk duty. Oh man, I've had some of those. Is this when he served with the Admiral in Honolulu?

A hundred, yeah, this is the intelligence briefing team of Admiral Bernard A. Clary commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet in Hawaii. He says his clearance goes to top secret Q. Yeah, he's Q. And then he shared, like he was the guy who was like on the gateway to all the information to the Admiral. You remember so much, Jesse. That's because that shit baffled me. I was like, wait a minute.

There's one dude who's just like the guy. gateway of information to an admiral? What do you think got deleted out of your brain to maintain that information? Probably some of the comments I made. I think I made a few other ones just in this very podcast that it was, it was 4 a.m. So it was. Every joke that I made probably I delete. I'll probably make the same jokes again today. But yeah, Jesse, correct. The job as he describes it is to show up at 4 in the morning, go through the overnight message traffic, prep it. I'm for the staff done by 9 a.m. He is certified on the KL 47 crypto machine.

He sets up slideshows for officers. He empties and then, you know, he's basically, they're, they're informant. And he chooses what they, what is important enough for them to see at the end of the day. This is one of the bigger things in part one. And every single thing in part one that was not reprinted documents that we used that he had in the book, like the treaty at Murrah. From the pale horse. Yeah.

The 16 craft craft, craft, a live alien, majestic 12. moon base. The original pale horse book, not the debunking pale horse book. Exactly. Yeah. He basically anchors everything, everything,

majestic, like the reason I'm, like bringing this all up is because he anchors all of this on this one claim that this was his job. Like, that's what's so sneaky,

and I almost kind, I don't want to go off on too big of a tangent, but that's what's so sneaky about conspiracy theories. They all hinge on one very small detail that is kind of thrown at you quickly and you kind of just accept it

because maybe there's enough evidence that he was in the military and the minute you swallow that tiny little pill that he was on this super top secret clearance queue and everything else after that you just accept because well you say I believe this now

wouldn't he yeah why wouldn't he know that if that was his job right but once but then you go back and you look at it and you see it's all hinging on one flimsy card and you just flick it the whole thing falls apart so yes everything injures on this one claim that in this office between the years 1971 and 1973, he saw all of these things in print in the military files.

Operation Majority, the Grudge Report 13, the 13th Grudge Report that was not part of official blue book. Remember, with the photographs and stuff, his story that he read, that his story that is that he read the Kennedy files was mortally shocked and decided to go AWOL forever from that point on. It was talked out of it on, on June 1st, 1972 over a bottle of Chivas Riegel.

A re how do you say, is that? How you say the alcohol? Let's find us. The night before one of his weddings by his dive shop buddy, Bob Swan, who told Jacobson, 30 years later in an interview, the author of the book I'm using, that what Bill said that night, blew his mind. What can be checked, though? Like, all of this is just hearsay.

And again, coming from the interview itself is saying what Bill said. blew his mind. It's all hearsay from Bill. The only things that can be checked about what Bill has said is that he served, that he ran on a boat on the river, that he was a quartermaster second class, and that a petty officer on a fleet briefing team would handle classified traffic in some form. But like, we looked up last time what a petty officer could do. And it's very, he could have access to all that stuff. I guess, Would there not be records that he served under the admiral and he was that like, surely. We don't have them if they were ever to exist.

Surely there would be some special certifications that he would need to like, like, he would have to be able to have that job. He would have to have travel logs to Honolulu. He would have, like, there would have to be some evidence that he was there doing that at that time. That's, and that's what I get to right now is that what cannot be checked is literally any of the rest of it. Just that specific thing. Yeah. He never produced a page. There's not a photocopy.

No memo out there that could be found or a photograph of him in these places. Because it's classified, you see. And that's, of course, what he goes to. But in 30 years of him doing lectures, radio, he wrote the book. He even did his own newspaper at one point. Like, none of it has any physical, tangible evidence that he did any of this stuff, that he handled any of it. Like, it's just not there.

And that's what we're going to kind of go. through as we keep going through this kind of almost item by item is that the specific contents of that the project names, the treaty terms, alien body, all that stuff traces to documents and that people did not that did not exist until 1987 and 1988 when he supposedly said it existed. It just smells so bad already. It just smells so clearly fake already now, like immediately knowing like, well, we don't even know that. Right, exactly.

Like, that's the thing. And it's not to say Bill doesn't have any points in his side. Like he tells a story about sitting in that office watching Nixon on television, say the United States is conducting no bombing in Cambodia or Laos. And five minutes later, the message traffic comes across his desk with the kill counts from the stories over exactly those places. The secret bombing was real and the lying about it was real. And a guy prepping Pacific Fleet traffic at four in the morning in 1971 would have been in the position to notice like he would have gotten that. would have gotten that within a few minutes. And he says,

did he have to know that to be there? Did he have to be there to know that? At that time, during that very specific place, yes, he would have had to be there for it to happen to him to know in real time. Right.

But like, it's hard to know if he's, because again, the book comes out so long afterward, how much of it is retroactively put into it. It's like so unreliable to even say you remember anything after like a few years.

Right. There's a few things like he puts in his papers in 1975, a few months after the last helicopters are come off the embassy roof in Saigon. Like I don't know. Like yeah, there's no, I was about to say, but I'm reading what I, there's the point doesn't really like go in his favor in that way. Like most of what he says comes so late that it's impossible to say when he learned it. The only thing I can say is that yes, a petty officer on that board.

would have had top secret cube clearance. But we have no idea if he was one. Right. Exactly. Great. So like, and that's, so this might as well be me saying this. Exactly. Except he did have a military record.

Oh yeah. Okay. So he did serve in the military. So this is like everybody in the military who went to Vietnam War saying this. Anyone. Yeah. More or less, yes.

Like, it's hard. Because he did leave the river after nine months. And he was still in the Navy. so he may have gone and was a petty officer for an admiral and did have top secret acute clearance. But even if we posit, like even if we say he did have that, there is zero tangible evidence that any of the records he says he saw for support of a 13th grudge document aliens. Just all of that is not there.

It's all taking his word. And we have now also had in real time in 2026 an enormous amount of like declassified UFO documents. I'm not saying they would declassify anything that would prove Bill Cooper, but it feels like if they were going to declassify some of the stuff, like seeing lights in 1966 in Vietnam, we're akin to a lot of the things we're getting dumped on right now. I just feel like now more than ever would be a time we see some sort of evidence if there ever was any and we're not seeing it yet.

Who knows? Maybe it'll come. But that's just, but that's again, and we've said it a million times on the show, that's where conspiracy lives and breathes in that little point five. percent plausible deniability yeah exactly correct what we also know is that he settles in oakland in 1975 into nixon resigning and and by his own uh timeline uh jacobson points out

the the america bill wanted was the one he had watched on recal television's whole life andy griffith all that stuff and he missed he had missed the entire 60s basically is the point we're getting to because he was in the war and in the military the whole time. He wasn't really part of like the 60s pop culture. So he's kind of getting inserted in the 1970s here. Now the part one version that we talk about, which is the books version is he tries to leak the Admiral's files to a reporter. And soon after on Skyline, a black Cadillac rides his wheels, if you remember, swerves up next to him, hits his car, knocks his ass off the road, but tells him the guardrail down in the bank. Did you learn the lesson? You did two men climb out. He's lying there in his own blood.

One checks his pulse. The other asks if he's dead. Somebody said, and apparently, like he just, yes, they don't shoot him. They just assume he's going to bleed out. Give him a warning in the hospital because he doesn't die. And he tells them that he'll be a very good little boy. Like, he will behave. And then they were like, all right, let's let him live.

Okay. He seems later, dude. Okay, he seems honest. He seems like he's telling the truth. I think we got him. The record has two parts. The leg is real. several operations failed to save his leg and it was amputated above the knee and he wore a prosthetic

the rest of his life and never according to his two wives let it slow him down on the dance floor they love to go dancing awesome like that's that's fine with me like okay dude get it now let it slow him down on the dance floor that's what they said they both noted that for some reason that like they love to go dancing now the crash and how it happened is a another matter entirely because the only other account of it comes from his own father. When Jack Cooper had heard his son was telling people the CIA ran him off the road, his dad was super confused. As far as the father knew, Bill had lost control of what he was driving by himself, the motorcycle

he was driving by himself. Like no Cadillac was there. the way the father understood it all was that Bill just fucking accidentally hit an icy slope on the side of the hill and he went careening off and lost his leg for it. But that's exactly what he would say. But that's all we have. We have the dad's account of what he thought the crash was and what Bill was saying. And that when he heard what Bill was saying, he was fucking flabbergasted and didn't understand why Bill was saying that because he had heard he had an ice patch on the fucking. road and just went off the road.

What do you think the case is? There's no way to know. He made it perfectly plausibly deniable either way. I believe that because everything is structured in this way that he's probably just lying. You know, just like Occam's razor, he's probably just lying because he just

every single feature of his story hinges on something that nobody can know whether or not it's true. But I can't, I don't want to go on the record saying that parts of it are true or not because there's no way to know. He's made it impossible to say. He's made it worthless, what he has to know.

Which is why no matter what anyone says, there will always be people who say, no, I believe him. Right. And that's it. That sucks. Yeah. Now, Jacobson, the author of the book I'm using here, went out and talked to all the wives. There are four wives all told. There are four wives.

There are four wives. The fourth wife was a 20-ish nurse's aide at Stanford Medical Center when he was convalescing after the leg. And she says he was the most handsome man she had ever seen his green eyes, scars on his face, an older man. You could tell he was a reader, she said, and he seemed to know everything. The other nurses told her to stay away from him. Oh, he's a bad boy. That man is bad news. Yeah, exactly.

Stay away from him. Her parents told her to stay away from him. Oh, so she had to go for him. He told her the government was after him. Stay away for me. I'm bad news, lady. Stay away for me. It was very much of that kind of thing, but she believed him that the government was after him.

And they, so they met in 1975 in the hospital. They married in late 1976. Their son, Tony, was born in 1978. And that was Anthony Bourdain. Dude, imagine that. That was the twist. Is that Anthony Bourdain's father? Was Bill Cooper?

Crazy. She describes the marriage as living with someone, as living with Jekyll and Hyde. In the beginning, all flowers in the beginning. Then at home, at 10 after his work, and then midnight, and then not at all. Like he would show up late and then later and later and then he stopped coming home. And then the drinking showed up. And when he was drunk, she says he was a monster. a mentally abusive person, which then eventually led to him becoming a physically abusive person.

He always said the men in the car were coming back to finish the job and to kill him. And one night, he hit her, gave her a bloody nose and knocked her out. And she called a hotline for help. And the next morning, she drove him to work with the baby in the car and then kept going. Tony interviewed, Tony interviewed as an adult, his son, puts it more bluntly. as far as he knows, his father choked his mother out one night when he was drunk, and that was it. Tony has no memory of ever seeing eyes, laying eyes on Bill Cooper after that. They spoke on the phone once when Tony was around 11 years old because Bill wanted him to know he had written a book and dedicated it to him.

Yikes. Anyway, it's basically the Bible of Paranoid conspiracy. And I did it in your name, my son. Are you proud of me? This is your legacy. This is your legacy. Your mantle should you wish to take it upon thyself. I'm so glad that like the wife got out.

Like she called a hotline and she got out of there and just like drove and never came back. The next wife is Sally Jordan. Later Sally Phillips. Later Sally Bourdain. Long, around in Long Beach, California, around 1979, we're at a bar called Panama Joe's. And according to him, she is the most beautiful. woman he has ever seen, which is the exact phrase he uses on the radio. A southern bell.

About 20 years later really reminded me of my late mother. The most beautiful dream woman of my dreams. So she actually has a bit of an effect on him. She, like, for instance, one of the things she does is tell him that smoking bothers her. And he crushes out his cigarette and says he just quits after two packs a day. since he was 14 years old. And she says he never smoked another one as long as she knew him. That is fucking nuts.

Isn't that crazy? Like, she just fucking magic to him and not smoking cigarettes. That's like really good. She also says he was a beautiful dancer. And she didn't even know about the leg until later. Another thing she says about him. Whoa.

Whoa. Whoa. She didn't know about the leg. Yeah. He had a prosthetic. You couldn't even tell he had a prosthetic. He was so good on the dance floor. He didn't even know about the dance.

He danced like a peatop. And I guess, all right, all right. I'm thinking like, how later? He's a dancing machine. How much later? I mean, not much, much later. Probably a couple months after they started dating.

He also apparently did, he was really good at doing funny voices. Well, I mean, yeah, you got to be. Bill Cooper. Yeah. I think the entire world's being run Michael ball of rich Europeans in a hotel. Fucking Mickey fucking mouse. Investigate coconut grove.

Did he think he did Donald Duck too? I can't do Donald Duck. That's all right. I wish I could. It's just going to be like, I can't make a, I can't speak as Donald Duck. I can go like, that's it. That's like the best.

That's all you need to do. It's the best. you can do. The other thing that really made her heart go a flutter was that he knew everything about everything and had when he spoke, he had a tone that kind of pulled you in. And she says you can hear that tone when he's talking on the radio and that he was built for it. And it's interesting because there is something to be said and we'll do other cults later.

We haven't done a ton, but there's so many we want to do. But it is a neat identifying feature and a lot of cult leaders, even in Heaven's Gate guy, we talked about. They have this way of talking that is almost hypnotic. Like it kind of just draws you in. And there's a sort of just like, lo, they put you in. LRH from Scientology. He just could talk and talk and talk.

Have you seen podcasts? Have you seen the trailer for the Theranos documentary that Nathan Fieldsberg? We have to see that in a theater. Yes. I'm so excited. That looks insane. I want to see Musk. And I got to see that.

that that that that a theranos movie that's a few people say like it's horny but like it's actually what I think other people said it is it is an autistic yeah people are weird I think it's him going

I think it's him being like what the fuck it's an autistic man meeting a narcissistic individual like it's an autistic person meaning a narcissist and just an immovable object meaning an unstoppable force

it is phenomenal trailer I can't wait okay good he says good chat yeah it's a good chat It's so fucking good. I can't wait. And the Musk movies coming out.

I know. It's time. It's time. But anyway, he and he, if you ever go listen to Bill Cooper, I agree. Like there is a,

if you listen, like he does have this kind of, what does he sound like? If he was up to, give us a little taste. Oh, God. I can't do,

I know just yes and everything. Just say the quick brown, the quick brown, the quick round, let me get a quick. No, no, just give us your best.

Let me hear a quick. Quick. little like Bill Cooper. Give us your best. You don't need to look it up. I know I need to hear his voice to get like a kind of a moment. I need I need to method act here. Right.

No, of course. Sure. Yeah. So because he's like, all right, I just heard one word and it's enough of me to remind me. He just is like, and there was when you look at the papers on the table, the UFOs and the aliens, the treaty speaks the truth. It's in front of me the whole time. Am I supposed to just ignore it?

It's like he's right here. A low, lull, like, it just, it draws you. I know what you. I know what you mean. Do you know, like, it's kind of, it's kind of like you listen to it. It's like the Heaven's Gate guy. It's like, it's like the Heaven's Gate guy. If you have the right mixing, it can kind of be like this sort of like frequency

hum that kind of like fills your whole head. Like you kind of can hear it inside your head. I know exactly that, I know exactly that quality. He never seems like in any of the interviews, he's never like screaming. He's never energetic. He's like laid back and he's extremely matter of fact. He's very confident. He does like the kind of hand movements of just like,

and then it was this and then this. And it's just subtle emphasis on his points. And he never seems. Well, if you don't sound like you're a crazy person, then you're not a crazy person. Which is why I can never start a cult because I sound like a crazy person when I try to explain things to people.

I wouldn't have a cult, but I would be like, it's counter to do a cult. It's counter. If you go away from disc-based video gaming. You've lied. You do want a cult. It's the 2013 cult.

That's not a cult. I want to go back to a simpler time. Okay. That's all it is. I don't need to be the leader of this. I don't need to have any brides. I don't need to have any sort of prophecies. I just want it to be.

That's the whole point. I'm not doing a cult. I'm just doing a colonial Williams. No, it's like, speaking of the Rockefellers, it's like Colonial Williamsburg. It's just a time,

recreate. that's all it is right right but like you know but like you know sex parties and stuff no i get it it's education maybe even they had it maybe if they had them in 2013 yeah no i get you know i get it yeah it's like 2013 with like i don't know if that's like one of the main things about 2013 yeah no i get it man like you're in charge and you're the leader and like you tell people like i was thinking more like dark night rises you know like i wasn't really in the i wasn't really in the i wasn't really in the like you're like bane and people die for you dude now all right never mind your call it's pretty cool no just

like I hate football. All right. So speaking of weddings, they married on Catalina. And at the reception, he started drinking and picking fights with people. Romantic. As one does. Kind of cute,

though, you know what I mean? Like, he's in charge. This is my wedding. Yeah, exactly. Y'all better listen.

All her friends said she was crazy, but she loved him. Oh. That's so sweet. She tells him she's pregnant. Apparently when she tells him he's pregnant, he doesn't say anything. Steam comes out of his ears and he turns red. Apparently what he does is he tells her to get in the car and drives her to a movie

theater showing the movie Apocalypse Now. What? Ray. Murder! He tells a shadow away. And like you were saying, Jesse last week, oh, like Apocalypse Now, he takes her to the movie theater. And as the movie's playing, he says to her, this is me. This is what I did.

I saw a slug crawling on the blade of an hour. So, yeah, who is he saying he, is he saying that he's like, I got drunk and punched a mirror? Or is he saying that he's like, I'm Colonel Kurtz? He says he, well, I don't know. I haven't seen a puck or is he like, I don't know that napalm smell. That was me. I said that line.

I'm the guy who made that line up in the war. He's like, you know that song? It's just a sign away. That's me. Well, doesn't stop the kid from coming. Their daughter, Jessica Dovey, is born in 1980, named for his mother. And Sally says, for a while, he was the most loving father you ever did see. And then the switch would flip.

And one night at a Chucky Cheese drunk and calling her names, she tells him to stop the car. It makes it so much more pitiful that it's at a Chucky Cheese. Right? Right. Yeah. and she opens the door with the baby on her lap and he turns and shoves her in the baby out of the car with his artificial leg

and she says it was like getting hit. Wait, wait, what do you mean? Like he took his leg off and pushed her out of the car with it? Yeah, it's exactly. Are you fucking kidding me? I'm not fucking joking. That's like, he took the fucking legs. It's terrible, but like, I can't stop laughing.

That's terrible. That's fucking awful. Are you fucking kidding me? Bitch get out of my fucking. fucking like a Jerry Springer fucking the climax episode. Wacking her with the fucking word. You are not the father. Get out of here.

Come on. This is a crazy. Like, remember last week I said it gets crazy? It's just different. Like, it's different kind of crazy. This is one of those when people tell you who they are kind of things,

believe them. And everyone's like, this guy sucks. And all these women are like, I can change him. No, you can't. No.

He sucks. So he took his. detached artificial leg, whacked her a bunch until she got out of the car. And when she got out of the car, she said, like in the interview, she says it was like getting hit by a four,

like a two by four. And her face was actually cut up. This is a big ass wooden leg. That's a lot of meat. Even a, even a non wooden leg would be painous. And that was the end of the relationship at that point. Yeah.

You can tell, like at this point, he's coming apart further and further coming apart. And we move to a point now where at one point, we're kind of getting a snipper. Unfortunately, I am going to have to borrow a term from Alex. We're going to time slice briefly and move ahead and just look at a brief moment of his life. Because in the short future, after this incident with his wife, he's in shortly after scene, photographing stained glass windows at Sally's church and then start screaming about Vietnam in a pastor's office.

And the pastor calls the VA. On the 4th of July, 1981, walking across the long beach. City College campus with a camera bag on his shoulder. He passes a crowd of Asian students. And in his own words from a college essay he wrote the next year, everything changed. He said he saw the river. The camera bag was an M16. He relived all of it while fireworks were going off because it was a 4th of July.

And that night he said he considered killing himself. And a neighbor who was a Korean War vet recognized what was happening and took him in for a couple of days. Long Beach VA hospital diagnosed with what the, with what they called appropriately at the time, thankfully and still post-traumatic, delayed stress syndrome, but it would eventually become known as post-traumatic stress disorder in July to September of 1981 and again March to April in 1982. So we're seeing the reality. Right.

Like this man is losing himself in a conspiracy, but I think it's because he's trying to, or at least partly because process. He's trying to process. Yeah, because we're watching like the p, the drunkenness, the violence at home with multiple different wives can all, I would say, be traced back to the man saw combat and Viet fucking nom. Like, it fucked him up forever. It almost makes it extremely like sad on a whole other level that the conspiracies, we talked

about this before, the idea of most people who believe in conspiracies are trying to take control of their life. And the conspiracy gives them this ability to do so. And it kind of feels like that's what all this is. It's sad because it's also like both literally and figuratively the damage caused by sending a generation of our youth to the Vietnam War like literally caused the age of conspiracy. Yeah. Not just the like the vibes changed. It's like the guy was actually damaged by it.

So it's now not even just a metaphor. It's like literal. Yeah. 100%. And it's again where I get to the point where Bill Cooper is an incredibly complicated. individual. And as this is happening in the 80s, this is before Behold a Pale Horse. And I just mentioned he wrote an essay. And I would argue that the essay he wrote is maybe the best thing he ever wrote because it is the opposite of Behold a Pale Horse. He argues in that essay in the 80s

is that the Vietnam soldier was denied the one consolation every soldier in history had, which is that you fought and died beside the men you came with because the army rotated everyone home on individual dates. So each man fought a private war and got a solitary plane ride home with a head full of grief. Then that becomes personal. He writes that he had a daughter and she became his life. And for the first time since Vietnam, he let himself feel for the first time. And that this is what opened the door for the demon to come in, his word specifically from

the essay, the demon. and that's what he will, and he will use that for the next 20 some odd years. Even at a lecture in Porterville in 1997, he says he spent his whole life looking for the devil and found the beast in his own chest. He, in that essay, lays out exceptionally well, the absolute hell, the army imposed upon every soldier in Vietnam

that was unnecessary. Like, in a way, he tried to kind of like write something that gave him an outlet and allowed him to explain maybe what's going on with him. And the devil he's explaining his fucking PTSD trauma and like no mental help being given to him because that shit barely exists in 1982. And he doesn't really seem to have like a good articulate understanding even of the damage. He's just kind of like describing it in this strange way that's kind of hard to understand outside of his own process.

I mean, even four marriages is a sign of PTSD. Exactly. Yes, 100%. And the middle of the 80s happens pretty fast. He moves in with a woman a few blocks away and it ends after he reportedly kicks her toy poodle across the room. In 1986, he marries a woman named Roxanne Whiteside in an impromptu Las Vegas ceremony. And that one doesn't take either surprise, surprise. He climbs to executive director of a for-profit vocational college during this time. And it ends when the California, when the California attorney, a Attorney General sues the chain for $24 million for collecting tuition on classes that didn't even exist. And that brings us to Bill Cooper. That's fucking crazy. And that's Bill Cooper up to age 45. At this point where two marriages ended in divorce, three kids, he will later say he lost

his leg and all this stuff. So that brings us up to like his mid-40s. We're now in the summer of 1988. Bill Cooper goes public with a 14, a 14.4 modem. if you remember 14.4 Kiliman. I used to have one, yeah. I know this.

I still know the sound, yeah. This is where he gets introduced onto Paranet, which is literally back then, green letters on a fucking black screen. The Matrix. It's very Matrix. And it is honestly...

I mean, a movie that I will not... I mean, a movie... Oh, sorry, sorry. A movie with a guy who goes backwards. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a guy who goes backwards, no spoilers. And this is honestly, like, one of the first places on Earth

where a few thousand people who gave a shit about UFOs, could in real time talk across the country around the world. Like, and his first post on this site, on this website, is the TIRU post. In this post, it would have earned him a small reputation in UFOology immediately, but not much more than that. Except that on August 25th, 1988, just a few days after he makes that post on the same board, a man named John Lear posts the John Lear hypothesis. Lear is the disinherited son of the man who invented the Learjet,

killed 17 airspeed records, and flew for Air America in Laos, which is basically saying he flew for the CIA. And he told Jacobson, the book that I'm using, from his home office in Las Vegas that everything that we all think is so much bullshit, it, but it is bullshit I happen to he believes in. Like he basically says, it might be bullshit, but I think it's based on truth in some way. His John Lear hypothesis, if you listen to Part 1, you already heard it, but the two truths thing,

the sun does not revolve around the earth, and the United States government has been in business with little gray extraterrestrials for about 20 years. That's the one we talked about where the deal is. The government has a deal with aliens, and aliens can abduct people and, we get technology and you got to stay secret and all this stuff. The aliens are liars, though. Like all that stuff we talked about last week is where this stuff comes from. Right.

What happened next is that in Lear's own words is, then I heard there was this guy on Parenthood supporting what I said, a man by the name of Bill Cooper. He was writing in saying he had worked in the office of Naval Intelligence and seen an incredible amount of top secret material and could vouch word for word for 50% of what I said. When Lear thought 50%, well, hey, that's not too bad, actually. So he gave Cooper his phone number.

Cooper called him immediately. And a few days later, Lear went out to Cooper, ringing his doorbell. Or Cooper went out to Lear and was ringing Lear's doorbell and they were hanging out. So you see how instantly, dude, made one post in 1988, serendipitously, a couple days later, this John Lear guy post. And now Bill Cooper is like, oh, should I have somebody who's saying similar stuff to me. But to like, make it believable. He's like only about half of what you said.

I can have evidence for though. He's like feeling the pressure to like fit in socially and he's just using it to like give him an excuse to lie. And then he's like instead of like being real about it, he's like just sticking to his guns because now his whole shit's like stuck on it. And he, you know, he probably barely even remembers what he himself was saying. Seriously. And but like this too, this immediately like they, he went to Lear's house and stuff.

This kicked off them being. essentially for for two years becoming inseparable. Lear liked Bill. Do we just become best friends? Exactly that moment. Did we just become best friends? Lear liked him a lot. He thought he was smart and super funny.

He said Bill Cooper had an insanely good memory and he could put away a fifth of scotch before lunch. Do you like scotch? I don't know if I've had scotch. Scotch? I mean, not for me. It's good. It's like a good, it's a good, it's a good legitimate.

drink. But I, you know, I don't love it. I, I, what is Malort? Not that. What is Malort? Malort is a Midwestern poison. It's a Midwestern poison. It doesn't fall in like a whiskey for killing. No. No, it's, it's, it's its own funny little unique story. I believe it's like a failed batch of something else that became a darling. It should have just stayed a failed batch. So it's an underdog, you know, that's why you got to respect it. It belongs to stay down there, though. It doesn't need to be anything more than an underdog. However, Sylvie. like Lear liked Cooper, but we flipped the relationship a little bit. And we see that Cooper kind of treated Lear like a father.

I, and told him. I wonder. Treated him like a father. This seemed like one of the situations where Lear gets something out of him. He gets something out of Lear and they feed off of each other and are able to spin more tails because of their mixed credentials. A hundred percent.

They're just like smoking each other's shit. Pretty much. And Lear even says that Cooper treated him like a father. And Cooper told him he wanted to make peace with his dad. And Lear just told him back that he was talking to the wrong guy for that. Lear says Cooper pulled a gun on him three or four times in that time as well. But he also adds that he pulled a gun on Cooper too. Oh.

So they're just like, dude, they're getting hammered and losing themselves in their own conspiracy theories. I bet you there at one point. Can I trust you? They're just like a couple of Hunter S. Thompson's just like, Hey, what are you talking about? Get away from me. You don't know me. Exactly correct.

But out of those knights together comes the secret government, the origin paper. Identity and purpose of the MJ12, basically the beating heart of the book we talked about last week of Behold the Pale Horse. That's like this comes out of the two of them brainstorming for two years together. Lear built his story. out of the MJ12 papers. And then Cooper built his out of Lear and then added more details, like as it went on from the quote unquote Admiral's files. It's like you have an improver right.

Like the person who's starting the bit. And then Cooper is the person like add the yes and adding it and making it more and more funny and insane as it goes. Yeah, just deepening just like kind of just huffing each other's smoke. Just getting gassed up on each other's bullshit. Yep, exactly. So that is where the cabinet all comes from. Because like, that's like, we're talking about.

No, who was it? Somebody in Hubbard were getting hyped together. Was it Crowley? No, it was it was Parsons, right? Oh, Parsons. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's, it's very similar, man. It's super, super similar in that way.

It's, it's funny you can just see patterns across similar people, I guess. So that's where the cabinet comes from all that stuff with Lear. The cabinet is John Lear, plus the MJ12 papers, plus Bill's own additions that kind of created all this stuff that hid the 16 craft craft, the bodies,

the one live alien, they called EBE. Like, that's where this is all coming from. And if you really want the moment where you can watch all of this kind of retroactively get filled as it happens to,

Lear gave it to Jacobson in the book. Salt Lake City, around 1991, on a local TV show, Lear is off stage, And here's Bill telling the host that the krill papers, the documents supposedly written by the alien ambassador, O.H. Krill, remember from last week, are real. And he saw them in naval intelligence. Lear then pulls him aside. Bill and says like, Bill, there is no way you read the krill papers in 1973 because I wrote them with John Grace a few months ago. So we have the moment by Lear's own admission. Yeah. The krill papers are not real, but Bill goes on local TV and says they're real.

I read them. It's all it takes. It's all takes. And Lear says he thought Bill maybe got mixed up. And then Bill looked him in the eye and said, no, he didn't get mixed up. He had definitely seen them when he was in the Navy. And that Lear told Jake. And that is when Lear said he knew Bill had what Lear calls UFO disease, which he defines.

which he defines as a continuing to talk long after you had passed the point of what you actually know. And when Bill got to this point, Lear says he could back up 50% of what he said. Then it became 100% of what he said. And then Lear says it became 150% of what Lear said. This rings so fucking true, dude. This is like exactly human nature right here. I like when I was reading that, the scene in my mind like that, that documentary scene of like going backstage,

hearing all the cameras like turning off the audience leaving and then Lear just quietly being like, there's no fucking way, dude. I wrote that thing and beer, Cooper rather, which is like a dead sociopathic gaze is like, no, I read those files in the Navy.

Like, you know, no, those were mine, dude. I know. I got them. I had Q clearance. You don't even know.

It's nuts. So that moves to 1989 where Cooper mails everything he knows about the aliens to every single member of Congress. 535 packages, including the document called the species classified, which is where your Draco mothman come from, not mothman, but Draco Mothman, which is a different breed of Draco. All that stuff alongside Gray's coming from Orion, comes from that, by the way. All of that is being mailed 535 times to 535 members of Congress.

Then July of 1989, the Mufon Symposium at the Aladdin Invin. Vegas is happening. The night before Bill is scheduled to speak, a man named William Moore, one of the original MJ12 document people, stands up in front of a packed ballroom and tearfully confesses that he worked with an Air Force intelligence man named Richard Dottie to feed forged documents and horror stories about gray aliens to a New Mexico electronics man named Paul Benowitz, who had an antenna on his roof near Curtlin Air Force Base until Benoit. Benowitz believed aliens were walking through his walls and was hospitalized with a breakdown. Now, we talked about that briefly last week about him like killing himself and stuff.

And Moore tells a half, at this point, the Halls is like booing. And Moore has to tell a hall of booing Ufologists that everything they are now hearing about malevolent aliens, underground bases, and secret treaties has its roots in the Benowitz affair. And the night, and this is all happening before the night before Bill reads his secret government to the world. It's like all happening. And the man who started the genre says it was a government disinformation program aimed at one guy with a rooftop antenna. So now Bill shows up at Lear's house the night, that night roaring drunk, screaming that he has been set up, demanding to know who Lear is really working for. And Lear says that's one of the times he thought Bill might kill him,

pull the gun and kill him. One of the times? One of the times. There's never been a time where I'm like hanging out with Alex. And I think this is it. This is the time he killed me. This motherfucker is going to try and kill me right now. Like one of the times after the first time, I'd be like, no more times.

Zero, zero more times. Stop trying to kill me. Or why did you do that? At least, why did you do that? Stop doing that. Well, after a night of drunk and rambling by morning, Bill figured it out. More must just be a liar. The MJ 12 papers are crap.

Yeah, the MJ 12 papers are crap and the real truth from the cabinet still stands. And on Sunday, July 2nd, 1989, in a white poplin suit, 46 years old, having never spoken to a crowd in his life at this point, he reads, for an hour and a half. Forrestal thrown out, thrown out a window by CIA men with a sheet around his neck, Greer shooting Kennedy, the joint U.S. Soviet alien base on Mars.

A woman in the back then stands up and yells at him to stop it, that this is outrageous. And he says, if you think it's outrageous, wait a few years. And then the line that, like, and then he says a line

that kind of explains his next 12 years. He goes, I am not one of you. I am not a U.Fologist. Whether or not there are aliens, we are a nation of sheep. Then sheep get. led to the slaughter. That is the...

Okay. Dale Ribble. And the room applauds to that. Two days after that, on the 4th of July, in a chapel on Las Vegas Boulevard... He married that woman. He married... He marries a 28-year-old Taiwanese woman named Ann Mordhaus,

whose father fought the communists with Chan Kai Sheck, and who a few weeks later, when a scuffle breaks out in a casino lobby, after one of his lectures, steps in front of him with her hand in her purse, gripping a 12-inch kitchen knife. He tells that story on the radio for a few years, saying she was going to protect me, she was going to save me. For some reason, that moment really stuck with him,

like his wife with a knife was going to stab somebody and save him. From this point on, his UFO and saucer career burns bright and hot, but it burns out very quickly. He plays Hollywood High School on November 5th, 1989, 12 years the day before he dies, now claiming the aliens showed in M.J.12, a hologram of the crucifixion filmed with a time camera called the chronovisor. And if that sounds familiar, because we talked about the chronovisor in a whole other fucking conspiracy theory thing. This shows up now in 1989. Here, he meets one of my

favorite dudes, Jacques Valet. the most arguably the most respected man in the UFO field. He meets him on the Queen Mary. And over shots of Shiva explains that the grays are chlorophyll base and have two brains separated by a bone partition. And Valet writes it up under the title of the Cooper briefing and resolves never to speak to Bill Cooper again. He like, he wrote it down.

He's like, so what Cooper says? Drama YouTubers. Seriously. but then he's like, nah, not, not star vibes. And later that year,

Bob Lazar goes on a Vegas television, goes on Vegas television with his face blurred. And overnight, Bill's filing cabinet apocrypha kind of sounds like a Buck Rogers cereal at this point, which is directly referenced by Jacobson in the book. I cannot say that I made that reference

because I don't, I would have made a book, I don't know. I don't know if I genuinely. I genuinely have a small understanding of who Buck Rogers is. I, think is he a cowboy no just look up what century is in

yeah and the 21st century just just have a look like you know i'll do it later that'll inform you of who buck rogers is none of this really matters because bill is already leaving this career field very quickly uh in the way he kind of leaves this area is a very bill cooper way he says while he was in the hotel in Vegas

a scientist came to his room late one night with the briefcase opened it and out of it, a miniature flying saucer rose out of it under its own power, hovered, and then vanished. Now, when you say miniature, in a briefcase? Well, was it like the size of the briefcase

or was it like the size of an Oreo? I'd say a little bigger than an Oreo. Okay. But like, not as big as a full, like, briefcase. Do you think it is as delicious as an Oreo or like, as delicious as a briefcase? Okay.

I don't think they are. Jesse, you feel like you got something to say before we move on. No, I just am thinking about that alien inside the dude's head and men in black and how he was a little tiny guy and he probably had a UFO that looked like that. And that would probably be his UFO. You know what I mean? The galaxy is on Orion's belt. Yeah. Where the craze are? We love pierogies in space.

Well, after it vanished, much to my surprise in your own, this isn't an alien saucer. This was a man-made saucer. What? Just like Mount Chilliad. Made out of Nazi anti-gravity technology brought over under Operation Paperclip. They couldn't figure out how to make it to make a small. Now we're in like Captain America, Brave New World era of our lower now.

He then finds a 1917 speech by the philosopher John Dewey observing that the best way to unite all the nations on Earth would be an attack from another planet. And he says it hit him. He says it hit him like a sledgehammer. Now he knew the UFO thing was the longest running hoax in history. It was all a fear tactic to stampede the world into one world government. Oh, of course.

He had fallen for it this whole time. And kept you waiting. And that was why he had been allowed to see so many top secret documents in the Navy. It was all part of it. They had been left there especially for him so they could fill him with misinformation and propaganda and an unwitting chess piece in the government's game of chess. So he's like jokes on you. Actually jokes on me.

Everything I was looking at was fake. You believed me and you were a fool and so was I. But now I'm right and wrong at the same time. And you can't do anything to me. Yep. And what's funny is after this one, he comes to this conclusion after a drunken rambling night with Lear is that he apologizes for the next few years in public for many years. I truly think he sincerely believed

an extraterrestrial threat may have existed or at least tricked himself in the believing that it was real, then realized he thought he was wrong. And then literally went on a public apology tour for a few years to people being like, I can't believe I pushed all this stuff. I was an unwitting government piece. I don't believe it anymore. I think UFOs are real, but their man-made Nazi technology and all this other stuff. That was so wild. But on the the surface level, it sounds like a guy who's correcting himself, but when you look at it, he retracts nothing. The files are still real files, the treaties that are made are still real tweet treaties, and much like you guys clocked in episode one, he both goes with aliens are

real and aliens are not real. It doesn't matter. They're both serving the same purpose anyway. I don't think he's too concerned about it, to be perfectly honest. Do you know what I mean? I don't think he gives a shit what he says in the end. I think he's just kind of saying whatever the fuck he wants to say. You are not wrong. So we're now getting to the point where behold, the pale horse is about to get published. And hopefully, if you have ever any sort of

fucking respect for this book, this will stop it. So in September 1989, hopefully this will remain all your respect for this book. I hope, I am embarrassed. I own this book. Like, I have to, I don't want to throw it away. But I don't want anyone to find it after I've perished and think the wrong things about me. You don't want it to go on to like ruin somebody else's life.

Exactly. Like this will be, I will never ever recommend this book to anybody. I'll never even mention I own it unless someone literally picks the book up and says, what is this? I am a coward. You're right. You're afraid of the truth,

bud. Yeah. So in September, 1989, a woman named Melody O'Rin Swanson, who ran a new age printing operation in Sedona called light technology sponsored one of Bill's lectures. She did not know that he had a book at this point.

She found out from her friend, Janet McClure, a spiritualist who channeled an entity named Vywamas, who is the holographic higher self aspect of Sanat Kumar, head of the spiritual hierarchy of Shambala. Oh, like Shangri-La? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Janet told, no, she channeled a being that was part of that. They're not part of this.

Chambala's not on earth. I don't think that's how it went. I'm going to be a whole bunch of honest right now. I didn't decide to go off and research this woman beyond. That's fair. What the source is telling me, because I did not care. Janet told Melody that in a session where she was channeling Vywamas, by Wamis had brought up Bill's manuscript and said it was not the greatest,

in the world, but it would help people wake up. So my Wama said it was a 7 out of 10. My Wamas gave it a 7 out of 10, but said greater purpose is better here. Well, this is like, listen, the pros is far below what I'm used to, but the ideas are clutch. 7.2. All right. I know I probably perceive this a little bit different than everyone else, but if I had a spirit come to me and say, hey, I know we've been talking for a while, but there's this book

out there. I think you should check it out. It's pretty good. It's not great. Not great a book. Like when I read through it, but whatever, my first question would be like, time out. Where did you learn about this book? How did you read this book? Do you go to the library? Are you a ghost? Let me see the cover. Like, what do you see the? Why did you pick this book? How does it work? Is this book from the 80s? Is this book spiral, man? I would have questions. Be honest. But like in the ghost realm, do you have access to all the books?

In the phantoms zone? How does it work? She never asked those questions, I. Can you see the books in the phantoms? I'm saying, like when a new book is published, does it automatically appear there? Is it some sort of library of Congress put for the phantom zone? I don't think that's how the library of Congress works either, to be honest. Seems pretty high tech.

That's the Akashic library, maybe? that is? It's the fucking cyberpunk library. It's the fucking open AI library. You fucking. All right, yeah, but yeah,

that's like, exactly, if I was channeling Viwamas, I would ask my Wammis, what? Bywamas, then what kind of books do you like, Viwamas?

Is this a brand deal? Why are you telling me this? You have to say, what kind of stuff are you into? What kind of books do you give a 10 to? What's your 10 out of 10? Viamis. I like Dan.

Brown. Oh, Viwamas. Come on, man. Come on, man. You have that better taste out there. Oh, it's kind of interesting, right? Like, what if Jesus had a baby? Imagine Jesus. Jesus doesn't mean anything to us out here, but it's a fun thought experiment.

It really messes with you all, though, huh? Chambala is crazy. We got so many different spirits going on out here, dude. Well, Melody, on Janet's recommendation via channeling Viwama decided, Joe, fuck it, I'll publish it.

25 years later. Great rationale, to be honest. I just want to say. So this book that I read, the source was from 2018. So as of 2018, which was 25 years later, and at that point, like 200 some odd, a quarter million copies being sold, she had told Jacobson, she has never read the book and does not plan to. It's just not her sort of thing.

Reading? reading the books you publish apparently specifically. It just seemed cool to publish it, but like, I'm not like into it. Yeah, I just was in for the money. I don't shit where I eat, brother. I just want to trick other crazy people, dude. To give you another, like, a quick, like, idea of the inside of this book,

if you were ever to pick it up, which I don't recommend. To give an air of legitimacy, every single fucking page has top secret printed at the bottom of every single page. Why? I guess marketing, brother. Why not put it at the top of the page? At the bottom. Well, I put it up to the top, though.

That's bottom secret, dude. It's bottom secret. You're right. Just highlight the cues on every page. And like I told you last week, the back of the book is 35 pages of ads in the back for books on crystals and channeling. And as Jesse found having sex with God, I think. Oh, I bought that. So they're not like, it's a bit to get there, though.

But I bought it. Oh, I'm so excited. So it's not further reading. just like for their purchasing. No, yeah, because, so his book is the best selling book they have. No, I don't doubt it. I mean.

Yeah, no, yes. What is it? I couldn't even remember the name of it. I was trying to tell somebody the name of the Sex with God book and I couldn't remember the goddamn name. Oh, don't worry. I got you. Oh, God.

I can't, I'm so happy Bob that. I won't buy it. I'll just wait for the episode. You eventually do on that book. No, I'm not either. I'm good. Making love to God, arriving September 16th. There you go.

That's awesome. That's so good. So, yeah, also because of the ads in the back, Bill actually hated those ads so much. He once threatened to take a nine foot tall channeled space commander named Hatton to the Supreme Court for plagiarizing the secret government. First, first printing 35. Do you think it's more fun to live in this world? You know what I mean? Absolutely.

You think it's like, absolutely. It seems stressful, but I feel like it's fun to be like, I'm taking you to court, space God. I think for most people it is. I think for Bill it's harrowing because he's dealing with trauma in this way. But like, I think for a lot of other people who are running around in this world, it's a great time. It's a fun time.

By the end. Well, yes, Alex? No, no, never mind. It's not worth it. No,

but now you have to say it. So it's extra not worth it. I just think, I just think people that are in that mind state maybe aren't the best, uh, like to listen to. You know what I mean? Not sure I follow.

Or let's say pay attention to or like pay any mind to. too, let's say, not listening. You can find one of these people on like a street corner near where you live every month or so. I think we can find them on street corners all over America, my friend. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So by the end of 2017, we're now closing in on 300,000 copies of this book sold.

He sold it out of his station wagon and called it the biggest selling underground book of all time in the most shoplifted book in America. So punk, dude. Barnes & Noble actually. does at least did still keep it in 2018 I don't know if they keep it anymore but there was a clerk out in Brooklyn who said that like every once in a while somebody would come asking for it and they only keep the book like behind the counter they didn't keep it out on the show they don't want anybody to know that

they have it available yeah yeah probably in a like a staple like a mad dog yeah yeah yeah yeah uh we spent a big part of chunk one part one rather reading the documents Bill reprinted as proof. We actually, I can give you where these things came from. So silent weapons for quiet wars. That was the book says a copy turned up in 1986 and the IBM copier bought at a surplus sale and that Bill had seen documents explaining it in the Navy. In 2003, two years later, two years after Bill had died, a federal prisoner named Hartford Van Dyke doing 80 years for trying to pay the IRS 600,000. in counterfeit bills with the queen of England on them wrote to Paranoia magazine.

I know. Wrote to Paranoia magazine actually said he was the one who wrote that paper. He said he finished December 1979, 65 copies of them. One of them handed in 1980 to a hitchhiking soldier. He drove to McCord Air Force Base, which is near where the surplus copier turned up. Like what he says happened actually does seem to lead where this. was found in the copier. So it is actually likely this paper was found in a copier and left there by a soldier.

That's crazy. Because this fucking dude who tried to like fuck over the IRS wrote it in 1979 and just kind of distributed some copies. Bill Cooper's whole reasoning as to why he believed this to be true because it came from a fucking soldier or whatever immediately. It's kind of just bullshit. Yeah. Is bullshit.

Exactly. Then we actually have the FEMA camps chapter. We know nearly all of it. Reap is, nearly all of it reprints a pamphlet by a Houston doctor named William Papsed that began as a lawsuit in 1976 with a list of campsites. He had little to no corroboration for, which is just like, if this has been a thing people have yelling about in the government as old as fucking time, Bill just got a hold of it and gave it to a national audience.

And that is where literally the 600 FEMA camps you hear about today are bored. that's literally the root cause of all these FEMA camps we've heard about is because it was a pamphlet written by a Houston doctor who he used as evidence that had zero corroboration. He just made it up. And that's, it's 2026 and people still believe it. It sucks. Report from Iron Mountain,

written as a satire in 1967 by Victor Navaski, the editor of the nation with the humorist Marvin Kitman and a writer named Leonard Lewin, it misfired when the Liberty Lobby published it as real accidentally and Navoski spent decades trying to set the record straight before and his words throwing his hands up in the air. So another just printed as true, Bill Cooper never like, and then once he saw that and was like, oh, it was printed as true,

ignored any attempt. And then to be like, no, it was supposed to be satirical, supposed to be like a joke thing. And he was like, no, no, it's real. No, it's real. And we've talked about this last one. the protocols of the learned elders of Zion that's that 60 plus pages

about 15% of the book printed in full with a single author's note telling you to swap Zion for Zion, Jews for Illuminati and Goyim for cattle. Wait, I drive a Zion. Shit, dude, it's over for you. This is all, we talked about it

in another episode, but again, this was lifted from an 1860s French satire, assembled by the Tsars' secret police, given its American life when Henry Ford printed 500,000 copies in 1920 and ran it for five years before apologizing. That's where it comes from. Like, it's not even that hard to fucking figure out.

Do your research. That is so, that is so wacky. It just speaks ill of it even for even, like, people knew it was a forgery even when it was happening. So the book, like, in essence, behold a pale horse is kind of a madman scrapbook. It is just documents that are counterfeiters, manifestos, like magazine editor joke documents, taking it as serious, like one that was produced by a dude who was creating fake forgery money. Like, it's insane that when you look at each one of these documents and go to the root of it,

it makes the book look like a joke. Like any sense of seriousness that you could walk away from it is dashed to its very core. It's kind of fucked up. and burned it to ashes. It's kind of fucked up how actually deniable it all is for a bunch of people who are, you know, banking on things being plausibly deniable.

And Bill being ever the man to kind of sandbag himself, he always, he even claims in the book that he never. Nothing wrong with sandbagging yourself from time to time just to feel. Sure. But like he,

he even claims he never wrote any of this. He found it. You are like a like a lot of times in last episode. He often presents a document and lets the document do the talking. He's like, you decide. You decide is so, that is so wild style, bro. Yeah, exactly.

Now, we get to the Zapruder film briefly in where he would show at as all of his shows, the driver. Because in 1991, the product Bill Cooper sells at VFW halls around this time is, he's selling a fifth generation. dupe of the Zapruder film for $35 a copy because the book isn't really out in print fully yet. And the pitch is like, like I said last time, when he sells this tape to you, he pitches it. Don't watch the president. Watch the driver. In part one, the version I gave was Secret Service agent, William Greer slows the limo,

turns from the wheel and shoots Kennedy in the forehead at arm's length in front of hundreds of witnesses with an, uh, uh, uh, you know, gas-powered CIA weapon that fires pellets from a shellfish toxin gun thing. We went through the whole thing last time. He says you can see the gun. The brake lights do come on. It looks like shit, dude. I, like,

you can't, it's not, it does not hold up. Let's just put it like that. Right, right. The break lights do come on and there is a glint and the glint per everyone who ever looked at a clean copy of the film isn't the gun.

It's sunlight on the on the, on the brille creamed hair. of Roy Kellerman, the agent in the passenger seat. Jacobson got shown the tape in 1991 by a friend's son who bought it from Bill, says he paused and rewound it for a good while, trying to see what Bill wants us to see and came away with the sentence, uh, it took a certain gift,

a specific frame of mind to see what he wanted you to see. Like, outright saying you don't really, what the fuck does that mean? It took denying reality from, me to see what he wanted me to see. Exactly. And then by 1993, he had a new

video called the Sacrificed King in which Kennedy was killed as a Luciferian revenge plot for the burning of Jacques de Malay because both men died on November 22nd and because Dealey Plaza sits on the 33rd parallel

and has an obelisk made of 14 stones and he tells the audience to subtract 1307 from 1963. and you get 666. And folks, that is no accident. Sorry, just trying to understand. Yeah, yeah, it's math, dude.

Math is universal. I'm sorry, did that not make sense to you? I know, I got it. Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense. My eye right now, like, you know, Dr. Strange is that one part where he gets like evil? He's like third, there's the other Dr. Strange? Yeah, that's how I feel right now. Yeah, that's fair.

I'm so angry, dude, at the world for the revelations that I've, learned. Holy shit. You can't go back. Your eyes are open. Somebody even call you woke. It's fucked up, dude. Being the sorcerer supreme is not all that it's cracked up to be.

I must say. Oh, that's crazy to hear. I'm sorry to hear that. It's okay. So let's go back to his home life, really, like at this point. Because there is a little bit of a happy ending inside the house story. So he lives in the same house for about six years. His daughter, Dorothy, is born around 1990.

And he calls her poo after Winnie the Pooh. How nice. He often described as the 12-hour labor in the book. And Annie looking up at him to ask whether the baby had come yet, and he writes, I am so proud of Annie. She is my hero. And Poo is my always and forever friend. The book's dedication reads to my children, Jenny, Tony, Jessica, and little Dorothy.

Three of those four had never met him, by the way, or could not remember him. And Tony saw his own name in a stranger's book and hated it, as we learned a little earlier. California at this time is driving him nuts for some reason. So they decide to drive east to Arizona in the Round Valley, 7,000 feet, Ponderosa Pine, and near an old Mormon farm town called Eager. He says he hears a young couple at the next booth in the Sapphire restaurant say they just bought a house and have to sell it because of a job transfer. So he dries up to look at the house. So he dries up to look at the outside, sees it sits alone on a hill with a whole valley below it,

dries back, and makes an offer without ever going inside. $130,000. And he gets the house 96 North Clearview Circle. And at Christmas 1992, he makes a videotapes for his parents because the family is gathering at Jack and Dovesie's retirement place in Texas and money is tight. So we can't really go. It's a man. Honestly, the video is like him.

showing off for his father. Remember at the beginning I said he just wants his father's approval and never fucking stops. Six inches of snow. The view west of the Apache National Forest. The grade school, like he shows off the grade school nearby with swings. He shows off the lumber mill near his town. He shows off his two boys sledding down the road that comes up his mountain. He shows his dog, Sugar Bear. And he basically is just like showing all the beautiful things that he lives in and around, like all that stuff. He shows the balcony, Annie with her hair all done up, two and a half year old poo is in a rainbow sweater

and pink light up sneakers saying Merry Christmas and hi Grandpa, hi Grandpa, and Bill alone at the end in the late night kind of looking like a man who has kind of caught. Jacobson describes it as a man who has caught a fleeting ray of hope. At the end of that video, he says, mom, hi dad. Hope you guys have it as nice a Christmas as we're going to have. Jack had told him once that sometimes it takes a while for a man to find himself. He said he was 49 and on this house

on this hill he had found himself. Wow, which is really touching, honestly. It's profound at least. A little bit like you see, again, like I said, you see him yearning for his parents approval more than anything. Like he just wanted to be seen and told he had done a good job in his life. So then on January 4th, 1993, the hour of the time debuts on the WWCR at a Nashville, worldwide Christian radio. It's basically the biggest signal and shortwave in the area. And the opening, which we talked a little bit about is an air raid siren than a distorted voice out of a guard tower that says, lights out.

Lights out for the hour of the time. lights out for the curfew of your body, soul, and mind. That's out for the hour of the time. Well, it's, yeah, lights out, lights out, lights out, lights out for the hour of the time. Lights out for the curfew of your body, soul and mind. Dogs barking, people shrieking. Jack boots on pavement getting closer than a minute to midnight and Bill. And then Bill takes over.

Okay. And that is a kind of cool intro a little bit. It gives us a little bit of like that spooky late night radio show kind of vibes. There's definitely, I'll say this. I'll give him this. It's theatrical. It's very theatrical. He's got something going on.

Yeah. Yeah. So he tells the audience that the show they're about to listen to is not like any radio program you have ever heard and that nobody here is afraid of anyone that there is no radio career to protect. He claims 10 million listeners listen to his radio show. Jacobson doing his research figures five figures, often far less than that, are actually listening to his show.

And that the ones he had, were loyal because of the medium. Like, it's a very loyal medium, and the topic he is talking about breeds a small, kind of loyal listener base. You actually, if you wanted to listen to him, you actually had to hunt him down on the radio dial, and the signal would die in bad weather.

Like, it was like a super shortwave kind of radio show. A Canadian listener who later archived, every tape told Jacobson he would sit in his room with pen and pencil by his side, the way Bill told him to, and the transmission would just go static, dead air, and half the audience assumed the government was jamming him when that happened. Like, the weather stuff preventing his, that's the audience he was building. They immediately thought, oh, the government's trying to shut him down.

Jacobson, like, the authors read, what I think is right is that if Bill Cooper had a thin hair of the truth, it should not be available on demand. You have to work for it. and it makes you more believable. It makes it more believable. There's like almost an ARG mentality to it, I would say. Sure. If you have to have somebody work for the truth, like listening to this radio,

you have to really dial in into and know the waveforms are going to be broken up. It almost feels like you've earned it in that way. And so you almost want to believe it more. You're actively buying in, basically. Yeah, you're part of the world. It brings you into that world. Exactly. The standard thing, though, was every listener had to obey,

no matter what, you must not believe anything you hear on the show, nor from any other host, nor anyone like Larry King or Dan, rather, even George Bush or Bill Clinton or anyone else on this earth. That was the rule he put in his radio show. You listen to everyone, read everything, and believe nothing until you can prove it with your own research, which is again, as we said last episode, is the most absolute, like, it's half right. As far as a policy goes, I can't You know, I'm not mad at that. Exactly. He says, and if you cannot do that, you will march into the new world order as docile a slave.

And then he does sheep noises on the radio, bawing at like, blah, at people after he says that. Just to really drive home the point that, you know, only if you do what he says, you only get the truth. I'm picking up, but he's putting down. This part of his life in the 90s is maybe the most productive stretch of his life. He founds the citizen agency for joint intelligence or C-A-G-I, Cajie. It was the largest-cash-y. Just keep it in Cajie. I'm the joint intelligence head of Cajie, dude.

I'm just keeping in cash. You know what I'm saying? Cash Fetle over here. That's me. And by his own, and by his own promotion, he says it was the largest private intelligence gathering agency in the world. He is not good. absolutely entering a manic stage in his life.

We're just like full to Lulu now, like just full on. Getting there. Yeah, he's getting there. His wife says you could, you would walk into the kitchen and Bill would be typing at the table with a pot of water boiling over next to him and never look up. And in the middle of all that, he's writing out the mist.

He makes mystery Babylon, 43 hours, 280,000 words in transcript. The thing his fans still call his magnum opus, his masterpiece. And this other thing that I did not read starts with 2001, a space odyssey, which he missed in 1968 because he was on the river. His own. What do you mean it starts out with a movie? I'm sorry.

I thought you were saying that he said that he wrote 2001 Space Odyssey. No, he opens up this 43 hours of like the mystery Babylon with the movie. The plot of the movie? I didn't watch it, dude. I'm just saying like, what do you mean? He started with... I think he just plays the movie. Because the whole mystery Babylon

is 43 hours long. So he just starts it off like a playlist by playing beginning to end an entire movie. That is hilarious. That is hilarious. That's actually unhinged. It's fucking crazy.

I am very curious. If actually, if that's what opens. Because I assumed yes, because it's a 43-hour thing. And I, that feels like there's plenty of room. Big time. Just do that. Either way, I can just move forward here for a second. Oh, yeah.

No, yeah. No, you can. I just, it just sounded crazy to me what you said. And I just, I guess, I guess it's exactly what it sounds like. Because he's, like I said, he's entering, like I said, he's like entering his manic phase at this point of his life. The opening episode of it is Dawn of Man of Man. man is him walking you through the apes and the monolith as the Garden of Eden retold from the

mystery school point of view where the serpent is the hero and the god of the Bible is the warden of the prison. Right. This is what you mentioned last time. Yeah. And the moment the ape picks up the bone and kills another ape, that monkey bill says, became the first priest of the mystery schools. And from there, it is Osiris, Plato and the Great Pyramid, the Templars, the masons, the Y shopped, all that secret society stuff we went through in detail, that's the root of it. Like, this is all kind of like where it comes from. And he says that's on May 30, on May 1st, 1776, it ends on purpose with three episodes of the Third Reich, because that's where any good call, I guess, and movie presentation ends.

He closes Dawn of Man with when you wish upon a star and explains that Walt Disney was a 30, third degree Mason and the morning star Jiminy Cricket wishes for our wishes on is Lucifer and that this is one of who's favorite programs is kids and that a child's brain soaks up whatever you put in it like a dry sponge and a pan of water uh-huh it's part of homeschooling to know a good song from a bad one he dry sponge in a pan of water dude that's what he says all right it's his own word yeah all right who is by the way ends up being on the his show. She debuts at four reciting the Pledge of

Allegiance from the backseat of one of his Bronco. Like she is just on there. She signs off, see you later, alligator, and he says, after a while, crocodile, then she takes it over and says, good night, folks, see when the moon

turns green and the cows come home and that's the end of the episode. From that part. Then, February 28, 1993, and the ATF drives up to Mount Carmel outside of Waco and cattle trailers. You know all this stuff about Waco. And the thing about Bill is he says nothing for 26 days about this.

Honestly surprising for me. Well, the whole Patriot dials like on fire. He keeps rolling out mysteries Babylon. Hours of Knights Templar banking. And then he finally addresses the Waco on March 25th. He says they were waiting for facts. And then he does a thing that he figures he does. He tells the audience that.

that if any of them said, oh, that cult, they probably deserve it. They should hide from the rest of the world because they were a stupid, stupid, miserable sheeple. And then he tells them what really happened. And a lot of it is invented. He says the ATF threw a gas grenade into the nursery and killed a two-year-old. He says, the milk, he says the milk the Fed sent in for the children was poisoned and two of them died and keep saying it after it is clear that it did not happen. He says, Koresh is a Christian with one wife and two children.

children who does not play around, which is maybe I, uh, the, which is the one claim about David Koresh, nobody else on this earth would fucking make. He says, he also says the thing that turned out to be kind of right that they are not going to commit mass suicide, that they are acting on principle and that the feds will not be content to wait, that they will destroy the compound and everyone in it. And he plays amazing grace, 800 miles away in his Arizona studio for the church known as branched Davidian. Yeah.

Sounds like Lord of the Rings. is what you're talking about. Yeah, just the wrong side of this immediately. He says Ruby Ridge was a shock test, the way silent weapons described it in his book. You do something to a marginal person nobody cares about,

and you measure whether anybody objects, and if nobody does, you go on to a bigger one. April 19th, the tanks go in, and the place burns, and he cannot get out of bed. And his first show back opens with, America the Beautiful No More,

the second battle of the, The Second American Revolution just ended, and folks, we lost. He drives to Waco with Annie and Poo, sits in the bar where the ATF drink and watches them strut around like roosters, he claims, and goes out to the site at night after the button vendors all go home. And he says, the first thing that hits you is a smell he remembered from the river. Sweet and sticky. So he goes out to fucking Waco and, like, re-traumatizes himself. I guess.

Just kind of like, just kind of like breathes in the crazy for a minute. Just hops up, some crazy town stuff. What's absolutely insane about everything you're saying and it's really stressing me out is as someone who in the early 2000s, especially post 9-11 when I was working stocking shelves overnight, I listened to coast to coast a.m. all the time. This is right when Art Bell left and was mostly George Norrie. And everything you're saying was an episode of coast to coast at that time. Literally, everything is a topic. and it's crazy that it's just this guy. Like this would be like if I bought a book that was like 101 super weird things to talk about with your friends.

And then we just did 1001 episodes of that. Like we didn't go anywhere. We didn't look at anything. We just used. There's no critical thinking. You're just copying. Yeah, that's what it feels like. I'm like, did they just easy mode coast to coast for a few years and just keep taking this guy's stuff?

Like, that's, oh my God. Well, the problem is like, it's hard to tell. because he, like, this book sold well in the circles that it was meant to. So all these things, like, disseminated into other circles and, like, I mean, it's pure Alex Jones themselves. Yeah. Exactly. It's all Alex Jones stuff.

So we're just going to move forward to 1994 because we're coming towards like the, we're in the back. We're in the last, uh, eight years or nine years of his life before he dies by 1994. Uh, in late summer of 1994, the hotel from hell, basically. Bill Annie and four-year-old poo at the time at an embassy suites in Phoenix a shoving match at a restaurant happens and somebody calls the cops and back in the room

while there's a shoving match happening in the restaurant in the room he becomes convinced toxic gas is being pumped through the hotel vents so he wraps wet towels around his wife's and daughter's faces and hears voices in the hall decides without looking that it must

must be the police and that they are trapped. So the options are leave and get arrested or stay and suffocate. He calls friends and tells them to tape the calls that he's making to them. So he just went from zero to 60. Dude, he like his manic era happened. And I don't like it weirdly in some ways reminds me of my mom. My mom was bipolar, like especially all growing up in my young adulthood. And when manic stage happened, it's like a switch flips.

Right. And there's no talking, they're gone. There's no talking sense to them. They live in a reality that is unbreakable. Like, it's just impossible. And so this is what reminds me of. And like, so he's now he's like in his head completely convinced these are the two options. He's calling people, telling them to save it and record their calls and play the tapes maybe

on the air a few nights later. his voice is like muffled through a towel in these six squad cars are outside when they come down and this is the year Annie gets pregnant again by the way in the year he stops wanting to leave the hill and surprise surprise the cops were there because a brawl broke out there was no gas coming through the vents like nothing happened this is like when people just like get their family and like run and you're just like yo they just like got on some zag scared the share of each other. Exactly.

Also in 1994, man by the name of Anthony Hilder, an old Hollywood right wing operator, calls Bill on the air to tell him he was in a club in downtown New York, and there was a 14-foot projection of the behold a pale horse cover on the wall like a museum piece, telling him that his book is popular among black Muslims, Bill. Farah Khan is putting it out. You are becoming a cult figure,

and Bill says, don't use the word cult. And then quietly, and then he asked quietly, are people finally coming around to the fact that we do not have to hate each other. Like, that was something he asked. He's like, did people come in to realize we don't have to hate each other? Weird take away. November 21st, 1994, he announces that the orders have arrived from what he calls the general command staff coded on a computer disc, keyed. And he reads out the formation of the second continental arboration. of the Republic, SCAR, SCAR.

There are mock American cities on military bases, German pilots trained by CIA companies to recognize American terrain, a large-scale terror event being planned within six months to pass Clinton's counter-terrorism bill. All the shit that we hear over and fucking over and fucking over and fucking over again has been happening in our government since forever, man. It's the same shit. All signed by a commanding general.

Uh, his nonviolent alternatives that year were buying, we, we talked about all this. This is all happening right now in 1994. This, we talked about this deeply last year. Right. Uh, not last year, last episode, Jesus. Uh, we talked about all this stuff very, very deeply. And, uh, as this is going on, he's running out of money. Uh, Bill at this point has no show anymore.

There's no more movie. No money is coming in and all the shit is happening in the background. Right now, Bill needs money. And he moves the operation, his little radio operation, 30 miles north to St. John's, into a former drug store next to a gun shop run by his friend Tim Lesperance, and calls it his store the Research Center. And starts a full-sized newspaper called Veritas with a nude Roman goddess of truth on the masthead in blue ink because blue, he says, is the color of truth.

Okay. He keeps... I haven't heard that before, but... All right. I'm glad to teach you something new. Yeah. He keeps the location of his shop, of his shop quiet, and one day, while he's working on that first issue of his newspaper,

Lesperon walks two customers over from his gun shop, who say Bill Cooper is their favorite person, and they listen to him all the time on the radio. These people, one is a tall, described as a tall and lanky. tall and lanky with a military haircut and a thousand yard stare who barely speaks and one is shorter and stockier in a black cap who doesn't stop talking the short one says they are going to do something to get things back on track and wonders if bill has any words of wisdom for them and bill says that depends on what you're going to do and the guy says we can't tell you that and bill says

then we can't help you and then the tall one speaks for the first time quietly and ask what he should do if a cop pulls him over like for a ticket he asks if he has warrants the tall guy says no then he says take he says then take the ticket and go on your way and the tall one says you don't think i should shoot him what huh i knew that would wake you up i knew that would like completely like it's like yeah what's going on you don't think i should shoot him and bill says why would you you somebody over a ticket and the kid takes it in like he's making a mental note and then thanks him for the advice what is going on they apparently leave in a big green station wagon with a puke yellow interior interior in a cargo filled with copies of the turner diaries as they pull away

and the short one yells back watch Oklahoma City what watch Oklahoma City so he's so he's saying that he had inside information about the Oklahoma City Or maybe they, the tall one was the Oklahoma City Bomber was him. Lanky military haircut, extremely quiet. But was it? Yeah, was it Timothy McVeigh? Like, what's the, what's the implication? Yeah, that's exactly the implication.

Like, the implication it was them or they were at the very least involved in some way. And the thing is, did that actually happen? This story comes from his friend. Like, I don't know. Like, there's no way to know. But it comes from a friend. It doesn't come from Bill Cooper, you know, in that way. So now we can move to 1995 in August.

He announces the birth of his fifth child, Alison Dovey Cooper on the air, 50 miles of Mountain Road in the hospital and show low with the radar jammer hooked up to his Bronco with his wife having contractions every five minutes. They speed to the hospital. Can you imagine speeding to the hospital while he's got a fucking jammer slapped and hooked up to his fucking Ford Bronco? Who is in the back seat on this way?

He refuses to sign a birth certificate or apply for social security number and takes her home to the hill after that. And that night, who works out the family on the air with the logic of a five-year-old? And I don't want to leave this out. I would not leave without you and Mommy and Allison, and you would not leave me and Mommy would not leave. And Bill says that is absolutely right. and I'm glad you understand that

because you do not have to feel insecure, ever hold on to that. And that is the episode. Just like brainwashing his own four-year-old. That's messed up, man. Dispiccicable. That is fucking crazy. He's like a misused dereliction of duty.

The thing is, too. And especially if he's purely manic and he's not really bipolar, though I think he probably was bipolar-leaning manic with his drunken episodes. That manic episodes could last for years. they can last for a very, very long time. And so, like, that's what kind of looking at here.

So, like, as time goes on, right? I know you mentioned before he, the VA was like, this guy's got post-traumatic stress disorder, but there was, he wasn't getting any help. As time goes on, there's more help available for people. He's not getting any help. He just isn't seeking it or no one's, no, gotcha. Okay.

And that's the thing too, and that's the frustrating thing with mental health. Like other people could. try and help him, but like you are not legally bound to stay within the hospital. Like if he was even, there's no way to force him to get help, especially in the 90s, but like nobody's really doing anything. Annie is staying with him through all of this. Like she's still married to him for years they're married.

And on June 18th, fast forwarding to 1998, like things are going so bad for both of them. Bill and Annie are actually indicted for tax evasion and bank fraud. The fraud being misstatements on a loan application. and a federal marshal walks up the hill with papers, and Bill tells the audience that night on his radio show that a sheeple would have invited the man in and that he instead informed the marshal the papers were made out to a legal fiction

to be served in a fictional jurisdiction. Oh, he's a sovereign citizen now. Yeah, he's doing the sovereign. The sheeple would have let the marshal in. The sheeple. Uh-huh. Okay. Now, he's not a, he's not a sheep.

No. A sheath would do this, but he likes sheep because he's a furry. Oh, brother. Yeah, and he told him to go shove that and go serve the papers there. The marshal per Bill's own account stood in the road like a child having a tantrum, yelling, I do have jurisdiction. Instead, if they did not appear in federal court in Phoenix on July 1st, there would be a warrant. And Bill said, we will not appear.

We will stand and fight. We will not be like the Jews of Europe and gather a little belongings. and march off peacefully to the box cars. Dude, what the fuck kind of like, why is he lashed in that direction? Well, he, in his own weird mind, he's,

he's framing the Jews as the victims that they were, but he's like, he's equating himself to them, which is, I'm not going to be as much of a loser as those Jews in the Holocaust. God damn. Yeah,

he's not a good person. I'm not trying to defend Bill here. He is not a good person at all. July 2nd, the day after they, did not appear in court, a blazer pulls up at the bottom of the hill and honks, and it's a man, it's Steve, a filler up, quite literally. Is he on a gas station? It's perfect. He's a McVeigh agent holding a document. Bill refuses the document, cites Supreme Court cases at him from the porch,

and tells him to inform his traitor supervisors that they stepped on their dicks this time. They really stepped on their dicks this time. They're massive huge. Dix, those incredibly large you can step on. The Dicks are so messed up this time. And fill her up by his own account in his own memoir says, I think we probably did referring to stepping on their own Dix this time. He thought the IRS should have warned of the marshals that Bill Cooper was not an ordinary citizen behind on his taxes,

that he had come to talk because after Ruby Ridge and Waco, nobody in the bureau wanted to play tough guy anymore. And he told Jacobson, the man on the hill that that day was a different man from the one who had gotten a thrill out of meeting a real J-Men two years before. He said he looked up there at Bill and was like we had wishing he'd been given any kind of warning that he was as insane as he was. Because he fully believed that Bill would have taken this to his grave. This man was very clearly ready to go down already at this point in his life. And it's only 1998. We have four more years before Bill goes down.

Then on July 6th, Bill posts a public notice on his website. saying any attempt to execute the warrants will be met with armed resistance. Any person who attempts to kidnap our children will be shot upon discovery. A state of war exists. We have drawn our line in the sand. Yep, 100%. We have drawn our line in the sand. A bench warrant then follows.

And the standoff begins, but it is not Waco. It's weird because the feds kind of just decide to do nothing. The FBI opens a file whose first line in the end it says Bill seems to be relishing the role he has created for himself. And then the U.S. attorney, the marshals, the IRS, and filler up meet and agree on no provocative action that they can wait a year and a half if they have to. And one of them is quoted asking, quote, how long can you eat MREs? The county sheriff, because they're just going to sit there quietly, just keep somebody stationed outside his house the whole time. The county sheriff, who was an old-timer by the name of Art Lee, is adamant. There will be no Ruby Ridge in his goddamn county.

He tells the FBI Bill Cooper can live in Round Valley for 50 years and never receive a traffic ticket. There will be no Ruby Ridge. Up on the hill, though, in Bill's world, it's a fucking war. Bill posts a daily Cooper family update. He says reinforcements have arrived. Hardcore combat veterans kept out of sight so as not to reveal that. their numbers. Four state militias has promised to deploy in defense of Bill Cooper. A civilian sky patrol spots a helicopter and helicopter traps are activated and women and children are

ordered to shelter. Most days, the entry is one word on his update. Un-eventful. It's the only thing he usually updates. And the truth of the reinforcements is a desert storm veteran named Doyle Shamling, who was the whole militia. Doyle told, said he marched up and down the back in full body armor guarding Bill Cooper. Oh, the whole, in full body armor. Put it in your mind.

Right. Shield up. There's a one, like there's the car on the hill, down the hill on the road, probably a ways down. There's a one FBI car with a couple people in it

that are just chilling. Then at the house, inside, Bill is quietly updating. He's like living a war. And like muffled in the back, you could probably hear like, hop,

hop, hop, as there's one veteran, veteran friend in full body armor is just patrolling his backyard. I love it. I'm sorry. It just like my favorite image ever for this show. So, uh, Doyle, yeah, Doyle said that he's marching up and down in full body armor, guarding Bill Cooper. They stuck Radio Shack motion sensors in the ground and the jack rabbits in there in the wild kept setting them off. And a few days later, Doyle heard Bill on the air bragging that a jack rabbit could not twitch its nose on that hill without them knowing. They got passport photos taken for a plan to

sneak down the mountain to Belize and another plan to go to Europe and join the Knights of Malta because Bill said, they will be happy to see us. We already know their secrets. In September of 1998, he lands on a new station, WBCQ and Maine, run by a former pirate broadcaster named Alan Weiner who told Jacobson the only First Amendment right he is against is being boring and that you could not beat the situation. A federal fugitive on a mountain surrounded by the FB, with a microphone and it was all actually happening. So on Thanksgiving, 1998,

Bill makes a video called Cooking with Cooper and it is the whole marriage in six minutes, basically. He carves the bird for the girls and it is raw inside. So he cooks this turkey, this bird ends up being raw. He calls Annie over from the sink. She is in layers of flannel

against the drafts from the house. She looks exhausted and she says the oven door is broken and shows him the creek and the crash. like Bill, it's broken. It won't cook all the way through. And Bill walks over and kicks the oven door shut with his prosthetic leg and says, now it should work and stands there staring at the turkey and says,

that makes me so angry. What the fucking hell? That night, he decides not to do the radio show, but poo, who's eight now, does the show alone the whole hour with no dead air taking calls. about what people are thankful for on Thanksgiving and tells the audience she is thankful to God for making all the animals. He did good work. And she is proud of him. That's great.

No, not cute enough. No, it's incredibly cute. The whole thing's so sad. It's just so, yeah. I'm sorry. It is sad. Part one version, the one bill told on the air, the secret government hunted his family for a decade. Death threats on the machine.

Government cars parked outside the whole shebang. What Doyle says is that one day Annie said to him, sometimes I think about putting a bullet in his head. One day, if he gets murdered, I'm going to be the one to do it. I think I'm going to murder him one day. I might murder him. And that for weeks in early 1999, she had been hiding the girls' clothes and toys in their birth certificates.

The one bill told the audience did not exist in the trunk of a dead 1957 Chevy Biscayne in the yard because the world that she was living in was not. not the one Bill had convinced himself was happening. Like there wasn't constant military threat around his house. And one spring morning, Bill saw her close the trunk and went to look. The two of them stood screaming across the gravel driveway. He begged to Poo to stay because they were pals forever.

And Poo, and Poo grabbed her mother's hands. Because they were Pals forever, dude. It's like the, manipulative of shit. So, but Poo grabbed her mother's hand and started to cry. And Annie put the girls in the Bronco and drove down.

the hill and finally never came back. The next time he goes on the air is April 20th, 1999, the day of Columbine. And he says, I do not want to do this broadcast tonight. I have lost children. I know what it feels like. And he sobs on the air. So he just, yeah, because his wife keeps all his wives, keep taking his children away from him. So he compares it to Columbine.

He compares it to being. a parent of one of the lost children in Columbine. It's insane. It's a little rough. I'll say. I'll admit. That's a little rough. And for months, he ends every show with Goodnight, Annie, Pooh, and Allison, I love you, and tells the listeners, the family is no longer in this country. The FBI file records that in July, or the FBI filed records that in July, the LA County Sheriff found Annie and the girls in a house in California, while in investigating an unrelated crime. And a Round Valley newspaper man named Glenn Jacobs, the nearest thing to a friend his own age Bill had made an eager,

put two and two together and got five and then reported the authorities that he thought Bill had murdered his wife and children. What? Even with all that, he was like, oh, Bill killed his family. It makes no sense. He's surrounding himself with other crazy people is the point. Like, we are fueling his delusion in a way that is, is like unhealthy.

And every possible like worst case decision that could be made for Bill, that's what's happening. With the exception of the wives leaving, that is the smartest thing that's happened. Bill then did a show called Glenn Jacobs informer. Jacobs ran a public apology that said, Bill, I done you wrong. Bill never spoke to him again. Then his mother has a stroke, November of 1999. And Jack and Ronnie and Connie are giving him flack for not coming to Texas.

And he tells the audience that with a federal warrant out, he cannot leave his house, that waiting at a hospital bed for you to show up is one of the jackbooted thugs favorite tricks and that this is the worst year of his life and he plays Willie Nelson doing stardust for her. Doyle says that was pretty much the end between Bill and his family. So we have Bill having locked himself in his house for about four years at this point and just not coming out at all, even if it's family dying. And Doyle actually goes too mostly. Like Bill discovered online shopping and the UPS truck came constantly bringing camera gear, stamp collections, a set of clocks off decommissioned Russian battleships, packages he never opened while Doyle worked overtime as a cable lineman and basically funded his entire life in operation. One day, Doyle noticed Bill was no longer on the Marshall's fugitive list and said, Bill, you won.

and Bill said no it was a trick to get him to give up and not long after after he told that to Doyle Doyle he said was Doyle said he was not sure he could trust him anymore so Doyle moved down into the flatlands bill could see his house from the hill and would call three minutes after Doyle got home from work because he was watching his house the whole time that's fucking weird as hell dude he's sometimes at three in the morning saying he saw headlights on the road Doyle would drive up and there would be to check and there would be nothing. He was just lonely, Doyle said. And then he would say, hey, mine picking up a bottle of Jack on the way.

So even though he's like, I can't do this with you anymore, man. I can't live with you and guard your back room. He was like still very much a part of his life. We then reached to June the year 2000, an email that says, Hi, I am not sure what to say. I guess just I am your daughter. It is Jessica 20 years old, the baby from the car. She writes that she has been looking for,

she, she says that she has been looking for him for five years, that she does not want money, that she looks in the mirror and wants to see her father in her face and cannot because she has never seen his face at all. He reads it 40 or 45 times and calls Doyle to bring Scotch,

writes back, please be my little Jessica. Oh, her rep. Her reply starts with the word daddy and an exclamation point, and he tells the audience, daddy exclamation point, that stopped me right in my tracks. Doyle drives four hours to Phoenix to get her.

She stays a week. She tells Jacobson from prison where she was doing three years on a stabbing and describes herself as exactly like her dad, a violent alcoholic that his bed looked like a normal messy person's bed, and he wore old spice. and that was what a father was supposed to smell like. So, his own daughter found him and she actually,

after getting together with her father, she went on to stab somebody and go into prison. And the author of the book found her and interviewed her in prison. And that's what she said. Fucking devastating. Yeah, yeah. Fuck.

She also said that poo and Allison's room was exactly the way they left it. The teddy bears and that one of Allison's tiny shoes was sitting on the coffee table like he had been looking at it. Allison's shoe, she says, that is what she remembers most. The week ends the way every week in the story, like, ends. They are watching movies. He's drinking. She wants something newer than John Wayne.

And he calls Spike Lee propaganda. And he is banging on her bedroom door yelling that she is just like her mother. And she yells back. Of course I am. She raised me, not you. And then she calls 911. The police report says he flipped out for no reason and scared Jessica to death and that she left. with nothing but her pajamas, and the chief secretary bought her clothes and drove her to the bus.

A few weeks later, U.S. Marshals came to see her in Oregon and asked her to map the house and the guns and proposed she came, she'd come back with a handsome Marshall posing as her boyfriend and get her father to a Mexican restaurant in Springerville where every customer would be an agent and offered her $500 and an apartment. She said, you want me to rat out my own father? You've got to be kidding and called him. That night, she did a call. She did a show called Something to Die for, drunk and weary.

Fifty minutes on the marshal. Marshall's and the police chief from the FBI working for Satan and come up on, come on up here, find your balls, chicken shit bastards and do it yourselves. And some weeks later, standing by their cars in the front of the house, he turned to Doyle and said he had figured out

what he was going to do now. What's that? He said, well, I can always be a Marquis. I will become God. Yeah. No. I'm sorry, Jesse.

I will become immortal. He literally said. Like after here, his father, her, his daughter calling him and telling him all that stuff, just was like the last bit of fuel on the fire. That's all he needed to hear from his daughter is that they're after him. You were right. They are after him. They offered me to some money in an apartment to come get you.

They made me, they wanted me to map out your house, all that stuff. And he told Doyle, well, it can always be. a martyr. I can always be a martyr. June 28th, 2001, we're nearing the end of this man's life. He is 58, drinking heavily, broadcasting from a studio in his den. And he's a June 28th, June 28th, 2001. Wow, we're getting close to 9-11 here. Where we're about to move into 9-11 right now. He is 50, like I said, drinking heavily, broadcasting from the studio in the den. And he asks the audience if they saw CNN today, because supposedly a reporter found Osama bin Laden. walked into his hideout with a camera crew and interviewed him

when the biggest intelligence apparatus in history has been looking for the man for years and cannot find him. Either they are blithering idiots, he says, or they are lying. Nobody is looking for bin Laden. They know where he is. He is theirs. And the only reason to let that interview air is to stamp that face on the American mind

for what was about to come next. The American mind. Yeah, he says in his show, I am telling you to be prepared for a major. attack. Something terrible is going to happen in this country and whatever it is, they're going to blame it on Osama bin Laden. Don't you even believe it? This is, he said this after or before? Before June 28th, 2001. So before, but only a few months before. But I mean, like, recorded wise. Yeah, it was recorded before 9-11. Okay. It was a live, his live show. But I mean, it's a good

guess. It's a good guess. Yeah. It's an educated guess. Like, you know, if you were, like he was mired and all this stuff. You know that they're like constant friends. He's definitely a player already at this point. Yeah, they were. Our own government was told to watch out for that dude. Yeah, exactly. Like exactly.

And 10 weeks later, the towers came down. He was on the air within hours of it happening. And when the BBC feed had Richard Perl and a bar, Barack naming bin Laden before noon, he was shouting, how do they know who did it? So. The evidence. is it kind of cuts his way on this. It is on tape.

He did say a major attack blamed on bin Laden in June was going to happen. We do know that he did say all that. But the author of the book's explanation for how is fair of how it happened, a conspiracy, a conspiracist is a detective who already knows who did it. So the only thing he has to guess is who will be blamed. And the CNN interview was public and Bill reasoned from it out loud. He literally saw the interview of bin Laden, which made him more popular. And he just, he conspiracied off that way.

He didn't even need to say what the attack was going to be. He just said an attack in the future indeterminate is going to happen. And they're going to blame it on this one guy that they put on the TV because now everybody knows his name. Right. And he's the big villain right now, basically. Which is not a hard thing to smell. Exactly. And what he did and what he did for the rest of that day is the second half of my point.

And he did he did nine hours of this show. He told the audience he wanted no rumors, nothing that that came in mysteriously by fax machine, nothing from Bo Grits or Art Bell or Alex Jones. He said them, I know, that's a crazy pull. He said the men on the planes were not cowards. They were brave men fighting for their cause who had seen our lies and that the proper response of constitutional republic was to send professionals to hunt down the guilty and try them in court. When a caller suggested Sonny Bono had been murdered over Waco and it might be connected,

he said Sunny Bono hit a tree while skiing on a mountain and hung up, which is funny considering his own car accident lie, he told. Crazy. And then about 50 minutes in, a caller from New Jersey passed on a report from a man trapped on the 86th floor who said the core of the building had blown out, And Bill said on the spot that jet fuel could not have done that, that the towers were a hard target, and that the only way to bring down a hard target is shaped charges, specially placed, and that this was a demolition. Now, does that sound familiar?

I'm like, that's where this shit fucking comes from. He laid out the foundations of 9-11 truth in three minutes on his show that he started airing hours after the towers were hit. Right. From a den in Arizona while the paper was still in the air over Manhattan. That's how quickly this shit hit the public. This whole one, this one man, loose change would not exist for four more years. Same man, this whole guy.

And the reason he was free to do that broadcast at all is a weird detail. Back on July 11th, a family doctor named Scott Hamblin, whose ancestors, Fester founded the Round Valley for the Mormons, had driven his wife and little girls up the hill after Dairy Queen to watch a lightning storm, and a truck rode their bumper all the way home and pulled it to their driveway, and a man got out and yelled, and yelled, stay the F off my hill and said, you were spying on me and jabbed a finger in the door's doctor's chest,

and said, then you better find out who I am. And when Hamlin bent the finger back cold like clay, quote, unquote, the man got a small square handgun out of the truck, racked it from a foot from his face, and said, don't you ever come up my hill again? Hamblin and his wife both picked,

like got out of there. And on August 29th, the county issued a warrant for aggravated assault. In the first date, the Apache County Special Response Team picked to take the hill was September 11, 2001. Bainter, which is why he even believed that,

do you see how all this shit he's like i'm clearly right i'm clearly right about how the towers went down about oba osama and that all that like the truth about nine 11 because the day i'm saying it cops are showing out outside my house because serendipitously this thing i i ran into this doctor who i literally pulled a gun on reported me and that is just the day the cops showed up that's it that's how it showed up they scrubbed it for what the state police calls a possible security breach. Doyle says the security breach was that Bill was on the air for nine hours that day across the whole country and they did not want to interrupt it. Two weeks after the attack fixing the oven door hinge again with a rubber mallet, he looked up and he said he saw

a mountain lion walk across the driveway, past the chickens who did not scatter. Yes. No, I can't wait to see where this goes. I, like this is so overwhelming at this point. Please continue. He is an overwhelming individual. The mountain lion also walked past his dog Crusher, who didn't bark, and it walked straight to him, sat down next to him, and then purred loudly for a few minutes, and then walked off south. He put that on the air, and a Catholic woman called in and said, St. John Bosco had a gray wolf that appeared whenever assassins were near.

That this was your guardian angel, Bill. and the show on September 26, six weeks before the end, was titled Alex Jones, liar, which I enjoyed quite a bit. But like, first of all, I don't think a fucking mountain lion walked up and sat next to him, we started purring. But it's insane that a Catholic woman was like, well, the saint had a gray wolf that showed up

when assassins were nearby. So that's probably what's happening with yours. It's basically the same thing, right? Basically is said. So with Alex Jones, he had been on Alex, he had been on Jones, since the night of December 31, 1999, when Jones announced the Y2K apocalypse as it happened,

cash machines failing in Britain, a demon named Vladimir Putin, unveiling the new world order before our eyes. None of it researched because none of it was true. Bill said Jones was deliberately introducing a new level of fear into public discourse, and that if you listen to the fear and excitement and adrenaline in Jones' voice, you were hearing the sound of the future,

which broken clock twice a day, I guess. November 5th, 2001, he was, Doyle says, in a good mood. He had just finished the Vietnam novel he started in the 70s, Kuaviette, the War on the River. He had read a chapter on the air months before telling the audience to sit in a dark room with their eyes closed because he was going to try to make them see the place. And afterwards, the email started coming from men who had been on that river. So episode 1926.

Episode 1,926, to put it in a better perspective, was the last one, and it's him reading them. One that began, hey, Coop, the emails. He said, they began, hey, Coop, don't sweat it, man. From a man who remembered the mind that went off one morning and the ramp at Dong Ha and signed it, and signed it your engine man, Mike. Bill said he sat down and cried when he got it, because all these years later, he had wondered what happened to his crew, my crew, and never found one of them. That night, he added a line to the sign off.

Good night, Annie, Poo and Allison, I love you, and welcome home, my long lost brothers. So he's finally maybe getting a hold of some of his old crewmates at this point. Wow. Yeah, like, it's the end of his life at this point, where basically at the end. He left Crusher. At one night, he left his dog Crusher, chained to the bumper of the 76 Buick, which he had never done before. and Doyle says that is one thing about that night that he cannot explain.

When he pulled up to the two officers playing teenagers that were out, two teenagers outside were playing a boom box really loudly. And so officers pulled up to the teenagers. He leaned out and told them he was calling the cops and giving them 10 minutes to be off the property. The tack van came out with the sheriff behind the passenger door with an AR-15, a sheriff who had cut a vacation short to be there. And when the sergeant with the M4 jumped onto the running board and tried to grab the gear shift, Bill stiff-armed him off the truck.

And the truck went over a rock outcrop and tore its exhaust off and stopped in his driveway. The deputy who fired the nine rounds was crouched behind a limousine. Bill had bought the crowd-fined a limousine, Bill had bought for Jessica in the hopes she would go into the car services business. and Bill had a 45 on his hip like he always did. He shot Robert Martinez in the head at what a neighbor later called bad breath range, and then he was down. He lay by his doorstep in the rain for about 15 hours. The first priority was Marraise, who was helicoptered to Phoenix for the first several surgeries.

The second was that in Apache County, you are not dead until the coroner says so. And the county coroner was Dr. Scott Amblin, which was deemed a difficult, which was deemed a conflict of interest. So a coroner had to drive 70 miles from Holbrook in the middle of the night. And the third reason Jacobson says nobody stated, he had shot a cop. And if his body was getting rained on, screw him. Somebody eventually threw a poncho over him. Crusher was also shot dead on his chain. The deputies would not enter the house because the sources said it was booby trap.

and proposed blowing the front of it off, and Doyle, who had the paperwork as fiduciary of the estate, told them there were two fatherless little girls whose only inheritance was that house, and they sent in robots instead, which could barely get past the boxes. Like little old school, like bomb-dealing robots. There were no bombs in the house.

When the police left, the looky-lose, quote-unquote, showed up. Supposed Patriots, and some of them scraped, his blood off the ground as souvenirs, and Doyle scrubbed the rest of his blood away himself. So yes, he did get shot by the cops. The reason being, the cops, they kind of like drew him out with teenagers playing a boombox.

They were going to shout him out, but the cops were there. They showed up, and it immediately just turned into a shootout in front of his fucking house. On the afternoon of November 6th, a 27-year-old Austin shortwave host named Alex Jones got,

Glenn Jacobs on the phone, the old newspaper man up the road, who told him that Bill had gone down into town and waved a pistol in a doctor's face, that this was a felony in all 50 states, and that if Bill had gotten back inside, he would have had a perfect field of fire. And Joan said, well, they obviously shot him in the back. And when Jacob said the deputy was hit at bad breath range, Joan said it was a good thing. It wasn't a 357 because the 455 is actually a weak round. none of his callers believed a word Glenn Jacobs said

Jacobson calls it a changing of the guard six weeks earlier the show was called Alex Jones liar now Alex Jones is about to take over his role in the conspiracy world this is crazy this is like Kylo Ren like this is like some crazy shit it's like passing on the mantle of evil

that's why another reason I wanted I feel like I needed to cover him because it's you see where it all comes from And you see Bill and Bill Cooper's even like, no, that Alex Joan guy is fucked up. Don't listen to him. But Alex Jones is opportunistic. The minute Bill gets shot to death, he swoops in. And he immediately is looking to fill that seat.

And I would argue does so very successfully for a long, long time. Until like the other day. Yeah, until literally like. Yeah, when you were talking about how Bill was the minute something would happen, he'd jump on the radio and he start talking and he starts saying some crazy shit. That is literally what Alex Jones does. and it is what got his show taken away because then he started saying some truly crazy shit because it's all about saying crazy shit to get people riled up yeah it's crazy uh the funeral for bill

cooper was november 15th at the presbyterian church in springerville the only place that would take it with helicopters overhead and police snipers on the roof about 50 people inside no one from his birth family ron cooper told jacobson he had a lot more sympathy for the deputy annie pooh and alison did not come. Norio Hayakawa gave a eulogy that opened by saying the world would always remember Bill Cooper as an egotistic paranoia monger, obnoxious, choleric, and vengeful, dead by a self-ful prophecy, and then said you had to admit he made a tremendous impact on hundreds, if not thousands of people. You had to admit.

That's like, yeah, you know, I guess you technically, you don't have to admit it, though. Like, you don't have to admit that. Yeah, there's no needs. Sally Phillips stood up and introduced herself as the one before Annie and Jessica said the whole time she was thinking of Allison's shoe that they should have put it in the coffin with him and those people would never think of something like that. Robert Mariners was still paralyzed 15 years later.

His family sued the sheriff and the commander for sending him into it untrained. And Jacobson notes that of the thousands of online tributes to Bill Cooper's martyrdom, almost none mentioned the name Robert Mariners, the person he fucking shot. The afterlife first, because I think it's kind of weird. The book went to the prisons in Attica and Sing Sing, a single copy would go through enough hands to break the spine of the book. And a bookseller named Bro Nova, who has sold it on a folding table on 125th Street across from the Apollo since the early 90s, told Jacobson in an interview he helped that Bill Cooper helped wake him up. and out here you got to stay woke. And to Bill's credit, in a lot of ways, he ended up being correct,

that his death did turn him into the martyr of his own belief system. And his own death is what propelled his book to become even more popular, seeing it referenced in more pop culture. And it did inevitably, for better or worse, mesh itself into every aspect of conspiracy that we have all grown up, lived with, seen, and even taken apart here on the show. The first page of Behold the Pale Horse is quoted, printed in the shape of a teardrop from a man who called himself the mind of God, and it says that one basic truth can be used as a foundation for a mountain of lies, and if you dig down and bring the truth out, the whole mountain crumbles.

Bill meant that as a threat to them. It is the description, but to its very word of him. Dig down through this man and you find a handful of true things. A river where his friend did die. A war his government lied about while he was actively fighting it. The PTSD, the loss of his leg. A drink he could not put down and a demon he could name but not control. And a daughter who called him Poppy and said pals to the end.

And on top of those, he built a mountain out of other men's documents and other men's hypotheses and a filing cabinet that nobody, including him, ever opened. And he sold the mountain to 300,000 people. And it made him the most influential conspiracy theorist of the 20th century and got a deputy paralyzed in a driveway. That is the story of Bill Coombe. Got a deputy paralyzed in the driveway at the end. He got himself killed. and that is where his story ends.

It ends abruptly. And the legacy of everything he did continues to haunt us. I'm literally exhausted by this guy. His existence is exhausting. It is. And I'm so glad I can be done with Bill Cooper. Dude, I don't think I said this to you between last week and this week. But I had, I wouldn't call it a nightmare, but I had a dream that was me literally talking to one of my friends who in the dream was part of the Chulimani podcast about.

how long it took me to write part one and how big of a script it was. And it was just my dream. I was just dreaming about how long the first part was. And this one, an hour shorter, but still extremely, extremely fucking long. Boys,

that is Bill Cooper. I hope as exhausted as you may be, I hope you walk away and have like a new perspective on even the conspiracies you're going to hear even today from our own government officials and now have a better understanding of where that stuff comes from and can arm you a little bit better. for tearing that shit apart and tearing those people apart. By the time I got to the end,

I was kind of sadly introspecting about having the like sort of existential long view of what happened and how dumb it is and how similar it is to like YouTubers battling each other and how similar it is to like those guys, the, uh, you know, the paleontologists that just like started like doing whatever with the dino skeletons. If you know what I'm saying? Yeah, exactly.

the same fucking shitty mentality and it's like defining us more even than the conspiracy theories themselves and it makes me sad. I did know there seemed to be a depressive air that slowly eaped into the episode as I kept going. I'd look up for like where I have moments where I have breaks and you guys just like, all I can do is listen. Like what am I supposed to say? Like it is.

I know. It's not as funny as last week. It's existential. But I feel necessary. Bittersweetness. It's sad. Once you realize. how much help that man actually needed and how he got none and it let him go into a true place

of like paranoid delusion and then he brought his kids into it or at least tried to and then he rubbed it off on all these other people then bought into it or used it like sucks but now we know and anybody who like if you walk away understanding the origin of something you can best deal with it in the future and hopefully you were entertained but also walk away understanding how these conspiracy theory so very quickly spread. That is it for us. In this episode of Chaluminati podcast, we are off to patreon.com

slash Chulamati pod to go do a minisode. We're back next week with a brand new episode for you. We appreciate you. We love you. Goodbye. Anyway, me and my wife were sitting outside indulging on our porch one night, enjoying ourselves.

I needed to go to the bathroom, so I stepped back inside, and after a few moments, I hear my wife go. Holy shit, get out here. so I quickly dash back out to