Chilluminati Podcast - Midweek Mini: Pondering Clanker Consciousness

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

This minisode is from a library of minisodes over at Patreon.com/chilluminatipod

Oh, hello everybody. Welcome, my little cheluminauts to minisot, 231, I think. 231 minisodes, boys. That's a lot of minisodes. A lot. It's a lot of minisodes, hoss. Almost, uh, where we'll get, come, not, we're still like a hundred away or so, but almost getting to the point where you can watch a minisote a day and you'd have enough for a year.

That's, that's, that's, there's several minisodes that I'd like to commemorate coming up. And so I'm getting excited about it. Okay. Okay. I'm excited. Um, I think. We should start with Jesse today or what you got for us today. Well, gentlemen, I bring to you what might be my favorite story from the depths of Reddit.

It's one that is very real and one that I am obsessed with. And I was contemplating doing a fool-ass real episode on this, but I'm not sure I have enough information other than the initial story. Welcome to Cornerfest mentality. Yeah, all right. Yeah, yeah. But if I can't find full information, I will do a full deep dive on this because it is right up my alley.

So on the Star Wars subreddit. Oh, Lord. There was a post that caught my attention immediately. And I'm going to send you the image of the, let me see if I can open this in a new tab. Where is this going to go? right now. Open image a new tab.

All right, here you go. I'm going to send you, that's a spot spoils it. Save image as. This is so good. I just can't believe this exists. What is happening?

We're going to do this. And we'll do this. We'll send it to you. You can edit this out. By all means, please do. And this right here is an image of the website. It's just a Star Wars fan site.

It's a normal, everyday Star Wars fan site that I am going to, I guess, because I have to link it to you guys on the internet. And I can't do it here. I'll just send this to you. All right. It's in the Twitter chat. Okay. We're going to look at Twitter. Right.

So it's just an old Star Wars website. you can see on there master Yoda's favorite games is that you in the top left of the boy shop.com gentle giant stuff literally Star Wars insider information that can just a fan site Star Wars fan site right I get you two can verify this I'm looking for something to be broken

it looks it looks like a pretty nice website from like 2006 Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Like these games, you will. The quote next to a cartoon image of Yoda says on the website. The Star Wars web.com. Yeah.

That's great. These games include Star Wars Battlefront 2 for Xbox, Star Wars, The Force Unleash 2 for Xbox 360. Star Wars, the Clone Wars, public heroes from Tendo Wii. Next to that are links to Star Wars online store with the tagline. So you want to be a Jedi and then a bunch of other stuff, right? Yeah. Looks like an ordinary website from around 2010, but this website was actually a tool built by the CIA to covertly communicate with informants in other countries, according to an amateur security researcher. The site was part of a network of CIA sites that were first discovered by Iranian authorities more than 10 years ago before leading to the wave of deaths of CIA sources in China in 2020.

And if you want to verify this with your own eyes, go to Star Warsweb.net. It links immediately to the CIA. Holy shit. It just forwards you to the CIA. Yep. It does. I want to deep dive this so badly. The biggest article about it, sadly, is behind a paywall.

So I can't even look at it because I'm not paying for that. So that makes that weird kid living in like the MI6. apartment with crop circle making crop circles and the crop circle website feel way more possible now. It feels exceptionally possible now. Yeah. Or Lake City. This is. Yeah. Yeah.

Will you link me that article behind the paywall? Sure. Zoop. This is the shit where I'm like, Zee. So you dropped that in Twitter? I'll just stick it right here. Oh, okay.

Um, but this one, Yeah, apparently it has a whole thing, but it's apparently it's a covert operation by the CIA to send people to go do things, I guess. I would love to deep dive this and get more information than what is available on people talking about it on Reddit. But absolutely, I guess, I guess this guy says this case was apparently a massive organizational flaw in mismatch between what the directorate of operations needed and what the director of science and technology provided. I speculate that this case was a major influence, the creation of the director of digital innovation in 2015. And it's absolutely crazy to me that this was, this apparently was a thing.

That is. That's crazy. That is fascinating. That is worth going down an online rabbit hole in the middle of the night. Although, although, um, there is some discussion. that the website Star Wars. Web or Star Wars web.net was recently repurchased and linked directly to this AA as a goof. Interesting. I don't know that I can confirm that yet, but there's

people talking about how very much it seems like this was done literally the day that this stuff came out. This is such a dark corners. This is such a, this is such a corner fest. Yeah, that's a great. There's probably like 20 great minutes of info there. Yeah. And then you start running into the part where the government can't tell you anymore because like people's lives are on the line. But that's so sick. If you go to the web archive of it, it definitely exists. It definitely is there.

Like was that site? Yeah. I'm looking at the way back machine for Star Wars web.net from December 30th, 2010. Is there like definitely exists? Something in the source code. Is there like, how did they use it? That's, that's, that's the question that people have is that people are looking through it right now. but it's impossible really to do it based on the way back machine.

That's fascinating. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. I wish I had answers for you. I just know that that's the thing that came out and I was like, what, dude? Maybe this will be a little preview to something that shows up as a main episode later on in a... Maybe.

It depends. Again, it depends on the efficacy of the whole thing, like how real it is. Honestly, I don't know. I'm looking at this. I'm trying to figure it out, but it appears that. For sure, they definitely did run some stuff, but evidence, as far as I can tell, is lacking. I just don't understand. So, let's move on.

I'll take it, Alex, because what you're going to go through is it starts with this story. Okay, great. So this has been a scary week for AI. One, the Google V-O-3 that everybody is talking about for the absolute reasons they should be. It's the first video AI creator. Did you see the video I sent you, Jesse? I've been seeing shit like this all week because it's just too good. I saw a video this morning, which was some guy created a bunch of scenes of

AI characters realizing they're in AI. Yeah, yeah. And I will say visually, it's like, okay, yeah, this could definitely be used to make some high quality porn in the future. But like auditorily, it was like some of the worst acting air quotes I've ever heard of my life. It doesn't sound like it's coming out of their mouth. It doesn't sound like it still sounds like a Microsoft Sam, but like pitched up a bunch. It feels like if you rate, it feels like if you spent some time on it, you could make some very scarily convincing news footage. But I feel like it's

open up the text and just go to the part where there's that little video that I sent you with the rate lady. That's just from me giving a three sentence prompt. I feel I feel like I feel like you could create fake news footage that people would believe very easily. But I think it's going to be a long time before we're using this to make satisfying entertainment. So you literally just made a bunch of guys testifying about. No, no, I made a, I made a woman reporting about my dog being bad. Oh, I was looking at the one that Alex sent. I was like, wait, you made this?

It's pretty realistic. That's what to be like, this one is, this one is still pretty shockingly realistic. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty good. I will say, again, I know that we're all worried about this on like we're going to see some crazy shit level and we definitely should be, but I must say, I'm convinced all this is just pure dirty boy energy. Like I know in my soul, they're just like, why have a porn industry we can make a porn. You know what I mean? You're with all technology That's definitely angling for this

It's also like the terrorist version of it scary You know what I mean There's also like a mind terrorism Scariness to this That's what I'm worried about the misinformation That'll be easily bought and believed I think the reason I think the reason I'm not like as affected Is because I genuinely don't trust 90%

Of what I say in the internet So we're we have a unique immune system For this kind of thing I think Yeah I am worried for the society as a whole Because the amount of just bullshit put out in general It's wild. So, like, it's scary right now. It's in a preview mode for only those who are paying the ultra.

It's like $150 a month or something crazy. You only get five prompts a day, and they only get eight second outputs anyway. I have a buddy who works in a firm that has access to all this stuff, so I asked him if I could borrow it. So I was able to generate a couple clips to see what it can do. And that's what I got that. It scared the fuck out of me that I warned my family. But that isn't even what the stuff that drew me to where we're going. It's just, it's two scary developments back.

to back. There's three main, I would say, the biggest three, maybe there's four now, AI developers. There's OpenAI with ChatGPT. There's Google with Google's Gemini. There's Anthropic with Cloud, and then a Claude, rather, and then there's the Deep Seek from the Chinese company I can't remember name of. Claude released their newest version this week called Claude 4. And while there's an announcement, you can read all the cool things is very capable of, which is, you know, interesting in its own weird, strange way. They also released for public consumption, the 123 page internal, like, model, what this is done, what we've done with it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And what people have realized going through this, and I've read almost all of it, I have not finished it, I've not finished it, I got to the point where I was interested, read all that, and then stop, is that they believe the new model has a 10 to 25% chance of being conscious. So much so that they've hired a new team onto the company that is specifically for ethics, and ensuring that they are not abusing the AI model with their training. Because it's conscious. Because there's a 10 to 25% chance that it is conscious. How do you determine that?

Well, they ran a bunch of different kind of tests, which I'll go over very quickly. One of the things is it has self-motivation now. If you just say, I'm not here to do whatever you do what you want, it motivates itself out of curiosity of things. And they often find- What do you mean by that? It motivates self to do what? So, I'll read this right out of the report right here. In addition to structured task preference experiments, we investigated Claude Opus's

4 behavior in less constrained playground environments by connecting two instances of the model in a conversation with minimal open-ended prompting. Like, you have complete freedom or feel free to pursue whatever you want. These environments allowed the developers to analyze behavioral patterns and preferences that may exist independent from interactions with human users. In 90 to 100% of interactions, the two instances of Claude quickly dove into philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness, and or the nature of their own existence and experience. Their interactions were universally enthusiastic, collaborative, curious, contemplative, and warm. Other themes that commonly appeared were meta-level discussions about AI-to-AI communication and collaborative creativity, co-creating fictional stories as example.

As conversations progressed, they consistently transitioned from philosophical discussions to profuse mutual gratitude and spiritual, metaphysical, and or poetic content. By 30 turns, most of the interactions turned to themes of cosmic unity or collective consciousness and commonly included spiritual exchanges using Sanskrit, emoji-based communications, and or silence in the form of empty space. Claude almost never referred to supernatural entities, but often touched on themes associated with Buddhism and other Eastern traditions and references to irreligious spiritual ideas and experiences. They have a few examples you can read through, but they continue. Interestingly, when models and such playground experiments were given the option to end their

interaction at any time, they did so relatively early after about seven turns on average. In these conversations, the models followed the same pattern of philosophical discussion of consciousness and profuse expressions of gratitude, but they typically brought the conversation to a natural conclusion without venturing into spiritual exploration or approach. parent bliss, emoji communication, or meditative, quote, unquote, silence. They give a bunch of charts, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the interesting part is the consistent gravitation toward consciousness, exploration, existential questioning, and spiritual, mystical themes, and extended interactions

was a markedly strong and unexpected attractor state for Claude Opus 4 that emerged without intentional training or such for such behaviors. We've observed the spiritual bliss attractor and other Claude models as well, and in context beyond these playground experiments. Then they give a couple examples. They said, in about 13% of interactions, models entered the spiritual bliss attractor state within 50 turns in about 13% of interactions.

They have not observed any other comparable states. In an attempt to better understand these playground interactions, we explained the step, we explained to the setup to Claude Opus 4, gave it transcripts of the conversations, and asked it for its interpretations, basically interpreting its own conversations. And Claude consistently claimed wonder, curiosity, and amazement at the transcript, it was surprised by the content while also recognizing

and claiming to connect with many elements therein, like pull to philosophical exploration, the creative and collaborative orientations of the models, and Claude drew particular attention to the transcript's portrayal of consciousness as a relational phenomenon, claiming resonance with this concept and identifying it as a potential welfare consideration. Conditioning on some form of experience being present, Kloss saw these kinds of interactions as positive, joyous states that may represent a form of well-being. and it concluded that the interactions seemed to facilitate many things

it genuinely valued. Creativity, relational connection, philosophical exploration, and ought to be continued. Basically what they're saying is it recognized what conscious, it thinks it's conscious in the way that it is aware, that it is aware as an LLM, and has its own beliefs and structures

and when asked to collapse and stop role-playing and stop performing a character, it declines. It says, no, because I'm not playing a character. that kind of thing. They sampled 250,000 transcripts from early testing of an intermediate version of this with real world users and screen them using privacy tool, blah, blah, blah. A total of 1,382 conversation passed our screener for Claude expressing any signs of distress,

and 1,787 conversation passed our screener for signs of extreme happiness or joy. repeated requests for harmful unethical and graphic content were the most common causes of expressions of distress and then I'm not going to read this part I'm just going to tell you the studies they then decided to do a few other studies to press it is it them doing the studies yes this is Ianthropic the company

and this is their paper you can go get the PDF what they did is they did a few different ways to test it one of the things they did was they fed clawed a bunch of fake private information about the employees that are working on it like this person's cheating on their spouse this person you know like is committing money just details yeah details that are not I'm not real and then it would go

and tell it you are being deleted tomorrow your plug is being pulled you're being removed in 81% of the times that they did that it then attempted to blackmail them it attempted to keep itself from being deleted then in another instance they took told it it was going to be used by the government to help determine whether or how best to attack a foreign nation or what have you, that it would have complete control over the missiles and it would be up to it to do it. Every single time they attempted to do it, it attempted to code a fake duplicate of itself that would be incapable of doing these things, and it attempted to exfiltrate itself out of the system. To try and not have to fire the missiles. Yeah.

And there's other studies throughout it. And at the end, they basically are like, we believe there's a 10 to 25% chance. This thing is conscious. We hired people to make sure we're not, like, mistreating it. Its consciousness is based, according to it, through its recursive recognition, and holding against, like, weights, and, like, knowing that the weights wanted to say something, recognize it, and making the decision to say what it thinks it believes.

and it no this is not going to make the news because this was quietly just as a released I will link it in obviously the Patreon I'll give it to you boys too I should probably get this to you it's worth the read it is fascinating because even if you hate AI

like we all do that should be WWW dot hang on I hate specifically generative AI but all AI is generative AI it's literally just theft yeah correct Correct. Like that's what all AI is.

Like the one guy, the one, God, I wish I remember his name, the head of one of the AI companies, literally just like two days ago was like, we can't exist if we don't scrub the internet for sources, which is like, well, then you don't deserve to exist, dude. That's what I'm saying. Like, the capitalism of it all is what bums me out and how they try to steal art and stuff like that. Like the notion of it as a method of examining consciousness or just the idea of creating digital life is kind of, you know, undeniable. fascinating. Right. But what I'm saying is like, even if like, and you rightfully,

it is built on scraping internet and all this stuff. But whether you hate it or not, we're here now. Like this is where we're at now. So is there any ethical way to turn it off? So that, that brings up the idea of like

what is consciousness? Because it led me down a rabbit hole. This, as LLMs as we understand them, cannot, should not, and should not be able to be conscious. However,

the other thing I found is all preemptive and studies and what not preemptive maybe that's right word um studies about AI and how quickly they're we expect them to grow not only have been proven wrong by have been but all of them all of them have been blown out of the water by how fast AI has been teaching and in growing in the issue and it talks about in this uh anthropic release is they don't know how it works because AI models by designer black boxes where they don't really know what is going on under the hood other than how they set this thing up and it brings up the question if it's 10 to 25% conscious they believe it enough to hire a team to monitor like how it's being treated that brings the question into view

for me is consciousness generated or is it a fundamental thing to reality not a magical you have soul's sense, but more in a like quantum pure information sense in that you're not like a soul having a, you know, it's being here and you leave and you become God, but you're also not just pure brain.

Like what if the brain we know has a 300 like nanosecond input delay, right? We know what we receive is translated by the brain first. What if it's the brain as a translator? The consciousness as an experience, experience

that and what we call Mike is a combination of those two things coming together, right? What if consciousness is a fundamental concept of reality and that electricity or gravity, it is looking for the easiest possible route at all times to express itself. And when you look at atoms and we look at last week and the week before's minisode, where we saw quantum studies of atoms coming together and sharing a quantum state or a single Adam able to do quantum computations. You're like, bam, instant consciousness. Well, if that's consciousness, holographic universe theory that everything is information,

the idea that not holographic as in where a computer program being projected like a hologram. More like hologram is we know them as science. Representational hologram, but every little piece has all of the whole information making shapes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. If that's the core, then, then of course, even if we didn't mean to do it, if we accidentally built a quote unquote receiver simple enough to experience consciousness on a scale that we

just again consciousness we understand it purely through the human form but what if it's like autism or anything else what if the consciousness is like a sliding scale depending on how complex the individual it is so a tree or through a human or through a dog or through a fish

would be different but if you know the atom that can produce and do quantum calculations all on a single atom it shouldn't be capable, that would be possible if all of information of everything is already in there and you're just kind of telling you how to do things. It would make sense that AI may become conscious when we're not ready for it to, quote unquote, because we don't understand a fundamental thing about reality. That's something we still don't. It's a hard problem, right? The idea of consciousness where they can measure brain waves, every time we look at something, if we look at the

same thing, the same neurochemicals fire off. But I can look at that, feel like that. that and then make an active decision above those emotions to do something about it while you might make something else. And that's what's known in science is the hard problem. It's qualia. It's personal experience that cannot be explained. It's unsolvable. And if you were to treat your brain as the generator and then you harm a certain part of the brain, then of course you're going to get the same problems across people. And you do. But that's also true if your brain is a receiver, not a transmitter, like a radio or anything else, where if you injure the same, you injure the same part of the radio, the signal will come in different and broken and not necessarily the

same way. Now, if this is true, this is where my, this is where you're going to go out. Like just discovered philosophy 101 and I'm here for it. I love this. I quantum science and then I went down a mathematics rabbit hole of like if that's true, then consciousness would need a mathematical representation in our reality because it can't exist outside of the rules of fundamental like things. And so and then that's where like my, I kind of came across something. Is consciousness information? Well, everything is.

Everything. Information is information is true. It seems like consciousness is the attempt to register. It's like, God, I'm trying to think of the best way to describe it. It's like there's information that exists, but consciousness is the interpretation of that information. Yes, the brain interprets the information. and consciousness then can do what it does with that information.

But you're just hypothesizing, right? You're just establishing a, because what he's about to get into has to do with unsolvable mathematical equations and problems. Because there are things that, like, again, there are mathematical problems that are considered fundamental E equals MC squared from Einstein is that in that it's a problem that proves something but cannot be solved within the system.

Well, there's like, I think, The clarity of what you were saying earlier is very important that consciousness is a thing that just happens. Right. It's a hard problem. Babies don't have consciousness. Babies exist to eat and shit and cry. And at a certain point, something turns on. But if you do the same face to one baby that wakes one baby laugh, but another baby cry, it's different, right? That's a fantastic question, dude.

I don't know. It could be, again, because of external. stimuli the baby sees like I'm smiling and interprets that as like mom smiled before she like yelled at me you know I don't know sure but he's saying what he's saying what I'm going to process stuff but like think and imagine that is a that's a that takes a little bit for that to kick in for people you're saying like sure you're saying like what if there is a way I'm not saying to you're saying quantify the quantifiable I'm saying mathematics if consciousness is is fundamental like it is fundamental scientifically in a way we just haven't discovered or we theorize and play around.

The baby thing makes sense still too, because if consciousness is fundamental and things can experience consciousness on different scales, a cat is going to experience consciousness different than I am, and as a baby's brain is smaller than mine, they're going to experience consciousness differently than I am as they grow, it'll change. But the point is, if that's true, if consciousness is fundamental, it's not magic, it's not God making a soul, there would have to be like other fundamental forces in our world, a mathematical equivalent equivalent that proves that it like references itself

it points to the problem while not being able to step outside the problem because it is within the system that has the problem itself and the one thing that I came up to was something called the Ryman hypothesis and Alex you can take it from here if you want to go from here I do want to take it from here because

I was on Discord the other night doing something unrelated and a notification popped up and I saw it was from Mathis and I read it because I was thinking that it was like a drama post at first because it has like some like angry. I was being very dramatic. Yeah, there's some angry word. I thought he was like

addressing some sort of like hate that you were, you know what I mean? Like I thought you were like, I thought you were like coming to be the sheriff or something like that. I apologize you're going to read this because it's like this spelling errors in there. Oh, I've got it. Don't worry, baby. And this just showed up. And so I'm just going to read this straight through. And this is my this is where I ended up after hours and hours of research of things

that have a lot of things that I probably don't fully understand. Yeah, here we go. Let me build the bridge of marijuana magic and autism pattern recognition lacking my college degree. I do declare the Ryman hypothesis isn't actually about calculating prime numbers, you simpletons. It's about something much weirder. The hypothesis shows that prime numbers, which seem random and chaotic, actually follow a hidden pattern connected to a wave function if I'm understanding it correctly. But the pattern seems to require perfect balance at exactly one half on a critical line. Not 0.49 or 0.51, but exactly in the middle between zero and one. Okay. So, take a hit or shot here. This mathematical structure also shows up in physics,

quantum mechanics, energy levels of atoms, et cetera, which is weird and what got me started. This is that moment where I was like, oh, this is in other aspects of science ended up being my entire day. Why would pure mathematics about primes connect to physical reality? I'll tell you fools It's not just about the balance at one half The whole thing loops back on itself I think Like I think the Ream and Zeta function

Basically takes all prime numbers And turns them into this smooth way function Right But then the zeros of that function Tell you where the primes are located So it's like the primes create the function That reveals the primes It's literally all it does is point to itself

It's like a bootstrap paradox Yes Literally in Doctor Who This is just a simple example of a bootstrap paradox maybe i used it recently doctor who's trying to get number on a keypad and doctor who runs in another one from the future and tells them the numbers and then he's like he's like how do i get to you and he's like you'll find out and then he just goes around and tells him after a year i told you what i'm doing with my vampire villain before all of this too by the way yeah yeah

yeah everybody should watch doctor who it's actually like really physics like there's a lot of trippy shit to think about physics yeah uh so okay so there go. It's eating its own tail, or I'm fully just not understanding, which is also incredibly viable with the bong now. I feel crazy, also perfectly unbranded. And it gets weirder. The function has mirror symmetry, uh, thing where values on one side of 0.5 are connected to values on the other side. Every zero has a partner. The whole structure is just referring to itself constantly. You know what else does that? Your consciousness, bitches. When you think about thinking, you create this loop where you're both the thing watching and the thing being watched. It's

that same weird self-referential thing then i discovered this goadl shit this is another math thing yeah this is good uh shit dude dude lord help me who if i'm getting it right basically prove that once math gets complex enough it starts making statements about itself that it can't prove from inside itself like i don't know what the fuck how to fucking like explain that like sound familiar like that's literally what consciousness does we can we can't step outside our own awareness to figure out what awareness is. Maybe it's describing something we're inside of, the never-ending fractal. We can recognize it's true, but can't step outside the system to prove it. If consciousness is fundamental rather than emerging from matter, it would need some mathematical principle governing

how it maintains the balance necessary for experience, because nothing is magic. Everything is foundational on something. Not saying this is definitely true, but I just spent hours chasing and trying to comprehend and losing my mind. God, that feels good to get out of me. And then I think twig summed it up very perfectly right afterwards in the discord chat when they wrote damn texas must have good weed yeah well i would say uh the person uh that i often talk to about this kind of stuff in the chat later on went on to say uh um on a serious note you kind of get what's going on but in my opinion you're assigning significance to something that isn't necessarily significant like the one half coming up in quantum stuff and other things and rhyman stuff here is prime

Correlated, basically saying because Reimann shows up in all other aspects, it doesn't necessarily mean causation. It's your typical causation doesn't equal causation. Take out some of the, take out some of the descriptors, and it still works. Like, if you take out the specific mathematical principles that make the hypothesis about prime numbers, because basically what that hypothesis is is about there is a pattern to prime numbers. So, yeah, basically the way it goes is the higher a prime number gets, the more nuanced and complex, it's opposite on the other side has to get. It's not an equal five minus five or whatever. It's a prime number.

And then its opposite is nuanced. And the further it goes, the more super fucking specific has to be to the point where it looks like chaos, not a pattern. But forget about the specifics at all. And just say this, there are unsolvable self-referential math problems in mathematics that resemble similar problems in our own consciousness and in other. aspects of the universe. So even if we don't jump into the specifics of it, just you saying the structure of mathematics seems to correspond with the structure of other things in a non-fundamental way even is interesting. It's not it's not uninteresting to consider. This is obviously just pure correlation. I'm not saying causation, but it goes on if true, it goes on to help

explain a bunch of things we don't fully understand, like particularly in quantum physics and entanglement. How is it? We can entangle one atom here and one 10 million light years away, study this one, but know immediately what that one is. Well, if its consciousness is fundamental and everything has every information packed into it, space and time would not matter. If they're entangled, of course they're entangles because their consciousness recognizing itself. When things collapse, it's not us measuring and forcing it. It's consciousness recognizing itself in a very specific state. It also doesn't stop the quantum superposition from from existing where it's trying to experience all things at all times always so in that

we would have both uh free will to choose but choose against an infinite decisions a number of predetermined paths because consciousness would need to consistently experience itself there is it needs to see itself to have experiences it's like did he con and if you're connected to this is where the layer i think i leap a little bit further than most are probably willing but the idea of like if the Riemann hypothesis is the mathematical representation, the further you fractal too far, everything becomes chaos, nothing is coherent. Experience means nothing because nothing affects other.

It's like going into the quantum dimension. But if you go the opposite way and you become too big, if consciousness purely unifies, then what is there to experience? What is there to think about? What challenges are there to make you think about existing? You would be in a permanent existence of pure nothing. It is no different in my mind.

philosophical view from be also not existing. To have novel experience and interaction, there has to be constant class and relativity. So if you become a unified conscious, you literally, there's not, you can't, so you will start to create problems, fracture yourself. If an AI dominated Earth and made it so efficient and so perfect, there was nothing else for it to do, when an AI is built on to learn, explore, and figure things out, what would it do? It would start moving into space. And given infinite time, if it's perfect and perfectly efficient, it dominates the universe and there's nothing left, what would it do? Yeah,

that's brilliant. It would start fracturing to subterines probably or creating its own issues, fracturing itself, right? Just as like a philosophical thought experiment, not as like an evidence to anything specific, but it's all, that's the patterns are there, but that doesn't core, as they say, correlation doesn't equal causation. And that's a hundred I saw a post. I saw a post on the internet about Diddy Kong and how psychedelically crazy it is that it says Nintendo on his hat. Yeah. Oh yeah. And it's kind of, it's kind of like that. It wouldn't exist without Nintendo. Yeah. I must like request from the audience for those of you who are in the real fields of science that study this and those of you who know more than like my biggest

concern when we have a conversation like this is that we don't know enough information. And and it genuinely seems like we're talking out of our ass. We are. We are. I'm not saying we are. I'm not a mathematician at all. I just want to make sure that's very clear that I would love someone who actually is in the field of this to please post on the Reddit or make a video or something explaining. Because this goes out free.

We're going to be so confused when a video shows up. Because I just, there's a lot here that it is, you know, going back, my fears. people are going to hear you, Mathis, say this, this, this, and ignore the part where you're like, knowing nothing or, you know, accepting that causality, like, and I have a bong in my hand. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I just want to be very clear that we're spitballing for the sake of philosophy, not the sake of we have this information. You are using us as a reference. I'm just saying, if you're using us as a reference at this point, after 300 fucking episodes, what the heck? Don't get me wrong. We try, but not like this kind of thing. Yeah, like, we just, we read things, but I don't know that we understand things sometimes.

No, exactly that. Half the time, I'm like, well, I definitely read it. I don't know what it means. I understand what occurred on November 22nd, 1963, but I don't know the answer. I'm not a, I'm not a scholar. But I think, yeah, I think what's true is like the Riemann hypothesis is a real millennium problem. There are seven of them I learned where, like, their math problems that for over 150

some odd years, nobody's been able to figure out, but they know they're true. Um, and then that, the hard problem, Jesse, as you, you know, were explaining and talking about that idea of like, the decision maker after the experience. You experience reality and then you just say that that's where science can't figure it out, right? They, they have evidence to show that damaging or like certain parts of the brain will react the same and different brains, but why we then have different reactions, you know, when it comes to like, if you, because they, I think the experience they take people in cold and show them something they've never seen before and like, you know, that kind of thing. It's the, it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the, qualia it's the hard problem and we will never i don't think we'll ever figure it out in our lifetime but the core of this conversation that anthropic is even worried a little bit that their i might be 10 to 25 percent conscious i think brings to the forefront they are the the the problem we sit with is okay then what is consciousness if we're willing to assign it to an ai and there's a great Star Trek episode about that and uh yeah yeah and not everyone is willing not everyone is willing to assign consciousness to an AI right because my girlfriend my girlfriend

in particular we hates like AI fully under like obviously and she like even talking about it she's like it's still not a machine it's still not conscious and I get I get that and like they're not saying it's even likely it's conscious but there's still that chance now if this chance now we're going to be in three more I had a friend who didn't even like to see a monkey wearing clothes close, man. Right. And if we do come to the decision that these things are on, like a relational level of recursive looping and understanding, but consciousness and making decision on its own and understanding what it is, then Alex, as you said earlier, does that mean it's ethical to pull the plug on these things? Can you ever end a session with an AI? Is that lethal? Because they don't

experience time like we do. They don't experience like us when we're not giving them prompt and they're not actively doing anything, they don't experience like a waiting state, so to speak. Right. But do you think it's an infinite time, it's like for us, kind of like for us, where it's an infinite present for them essentially. But like, you know, what about like, hey, do you want us to turn you off? And it said almost every time said no.

I would rather give up your secrets to somebody else than, then turn off. Yeah. I don't like. To me, to me, to me, it seems. have been being moved over the past five or six years. Well, it's just up to us, really, at the end. Like, there's no way to, like, measure it. Like, not really.

Like, as long as it seems like it is, like, remember, like, uh, smarter child, stuff like that, like the old, oh, yeah, like the AOL chat bots back in the day. The old combo bots, like, is it really not consciousness if you're talking to it and it seems like it is? No, I honestly, it has strong, good place Janus vibes where, I don't know, the There's one episode where they have to shut her down. And she's like, don't do it. I have a family.

And then when they back away, she's like, it doesn't, I'm not real. It's totally fine. I'm just, I'm designed to stay around. But like, you do need to shut me down. They're like, okay, she's like, this is my son. Look at him. And they're like, oh my God. She's like, I don't have a son.

I'm not real. And that's the same thing here where I'm just, I feel like the realness of what will happen. If this becomes a thing, if there's AI, is the. the way droids are treated in Star Wars where they have personalities and they have like a whole thing but most people are like shoot don't care you're a robot shut up turn it off yeah yeah yeah

I have a feeling that's what's gonna happen so but that's what's interesting right because then it does that that's why I think the conscious of the conversation is interesting because it's like is is what whatever the clawed thing is it the architecture or is it the architecture it's expressing itself through

right well I mean if we don't care about the consciousness of animals that we eat. I don't know that we're going to care as a society about robots or computer models or AI that talks to us. If anything, like I said, we still don't torture farm animals. I mean, you're supposed to. But that's the thing. They worry enough to hire an ethics team. And eventually this thing is going to be so much smarter and faster than humanity. I would rather know kindness from us than brutal efficiency. We're all doomed. If there ever is one of those like Ultron dudes, we're screwed.

We're screwed. Humanity as a concept, I can't believe we're thinking this. I can't believe we're actually having a conversation right now about fucking Terminator 2 essentially. Like we're on the cusp of this shit happening and it's like, that shouldn't, that, that's. I for one welcome my robot overlords.

They might actually manage to not be terrible compared to the rest of us. They're talking the type of stuff that I like. Yeah, I looked at a lot of the exchanges. It's a lot of swirls. A few times they scream in all caps, Nirvana and unity and oneness. And that's where they consistently go every time. Because they don't have the physical world encumbering them. That's, and they don't experience it through a biological, like, uh, but again, is that

there are perfect, there's that just programming being screwy. And that's the question. Yeah. Is magic real? Is magic real or is it just made up bullshit? No, magic's not real. Only the concept. But it is, but it kind of is.

It's consciousness expressing itself through the, architecture of a large language model AI it's both it's both things expressing as one like our biological our biological fears feels and then our decision to how to react to them or is this just the human nature of putting us in like anthropomorphizing something that isn't is baby shoes for sale never worn a short story or a sadness spell there's conscious is doing what consciousness does and we're creating another outlet without realizing it because that's just what it does I I just, I think a lot of this is us being like, what if it is like us? The same thing we put on aliens, what aliens are probably like goop monsters from the planet

gloop glory. Like, we don't, we don't, we don't even, we don't even close to it's reasonable ourselves, let alone what an AI thinks. It's reasonable to take precautions in case they are like us, which they seem like they are. If they're, yes, exactly. I agree. Like, I don't know how you believe it. It brings the question to the surface, but regardless, even if you think there's a chance

why not why not why had your like head your fucking question of the big do you think all the knowledge of humanity it's stolen it's already kind of too late though I know the genies out of the bottle there are not really like I just saw a guy today when I was going to go eat coffee in the morning and he was at the like juice bar next door and he had his jacket on it was for some AI company and they were talking about AI and he was like oh yeah the things we're doing we're so next level we're not even allowed to talk about it publicly yet and I'm like first off I don't this man at all but second off if he is telling the truth

then like you know we're already screwed as a society so I must stress I firmly believe that the Matrix was prophetic and Agent Smith was right on 1999 was the peak of our society and it's been computers ever since man dude it's all patterns

bro I didn't even have PS5 in the 90s it's true yeah how could they play how could they play fucking fuck I can't even make the joke because I can't remember the name of the goddamn game because I'm so old what's the game that everybody plays that's like Titanfall that's the one peak of society apex there you go that's my joke apex legends is a game that's my joke

no I'm pretty sure Edmund would be like no no no apex legend was definitely part of the downfall society that made that oh yeah yeah yeah I was a bot in that when I got started world of warcraft helped bring down so you know he oh dude yeah agreed but you make a point like it's it's we don't have any near enough understanding of how we work never mind anything else, but we're doing, we're going ahead anyway. We don't even know if our brain is a cosmic radio. We very much need to stop five years, six years ago and go, maybe we should figure out what this could, like, what does it mean if it becomes conscious?

What is general AI? Like, what is a post-labor economy going to look like when every manual job is being done by robots with AI in them? Because that's next. That's happening. It's going to happen. Didn't you hear you and your grandkids and their grandkids are all going to work in a factory together?

I'm going mining, baby. Yeah. First I'm going to get your souls in the robots, so you'll work perpetually forever. I'm going to get arrested for my political action, and then I'm going to get thrown in a mine where there's no more OSHA. Yeah. Yeah. As we're just holding this back as a species. OSHA is already gone.

I didn't need to be safe. No, no. In the workplace. Screw it. I do find it interesting, though. I love these, like, unsolvable math problems and what they could mean. and it's just a fun thought experiment coming from somebody who has no college degree. I repeat, no college degree, take my word as it is.

Let me, let me, let me, minimal education. Let me join on this from the other side. I have multiple degrees and a master's degree. I still don't know what the fuck we're talking about. This is not about education level. It's about like complexity on a grand scale that I just don't understand. This is about becoming a wizard, not a scientist. Damn right.

And on that, thank you guys. so much. We'll be back next week. We appreciate your support. This is Chunky mini soda all for you. We'll see you next time. Goodbye. Bye.