Chit Chat Stocks - Cloudflare (NET) with Joe Furmanski

Episode Date: May 12, 2022

Cloudflare offers an integrated cloud-based security solution. The company aims to make the internet safer and better for the world. Listen as Brett and Ryan ask Joe questions about the company, its business model, and valuation. Enjoy the show! This episode is sponsored by Stream by AlphaSense, the highest quality expert network library. Sign-up here: https://streamrg.co/CCM Subscribe to 7investing with the code "Money" and get $100 off: https://7investing.com/subscribe/aff/4/ Want updates on future shows and projects? Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/chitchatmoney Interested to see more of Joe's work? Find him on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/joe_furmanski?s=20&t=lHPEZ0clbuIsP3eVZwDmtA Contact us: [e-mail]  Timestamps Cloudflare | (6:58) Cloud Providers | (13:02) Financials | (20:47) Disclosure: Chit Chat Money hosts and guests are not financial advisors, and nothing they say on this show is formal advice or a recommendation. Brett Schafer and Ryan Henderson are general partners and portfolio managers at Arch Capital. Arch Capital and its partners may hold securities discussed on this show. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Chit Chat Money. This is our Thursday deep dive episode where we have on an analyst or an expert to discuss a single stock. And today we're talking Cloudflare with Joe Fremanski. He's an investor at NZS Capital. By the way, I recommend going and looking up NZS Capital. They write wonderful letters. And we've had on John Bathgate before, who is also sort of an expert in the semiconductor space. But Joe, he has really cut his teeth on the cybersecurity in it sectors uh and so do you have any highlights from this interview uh cloudflare is a beast to understand so i won't pretend like i understand the business yet but i definitely made progress so if you're someone that is looking to get a grip on this industry whether it's cloudflare

zscaler palo alto networks um the big three cloud providers fastly whoever this made some good progress for me um i mean just just to go over the overview of the business that that's really why and why people are choosing them why they think they can become the fourth big cloud provider over the long term and brett kind of mentioned it there but the it's uh it can be a daunting task to try to understand companies like this and listening to joe it's fascinating because he didn't grow up in the industry he had to teach himself this sector and this industry and he went about it sort of in an organic way like that. So it's fascinating to kind of hear him talk about it. But before we get to that interview, we want to talk about our sponsor. It's Stream

by AlphaSense. You've heard us talk about them before. Stream is an expert interview transcript library. So if you want to hear research or interviews with people that are inside the industries and really get an expert opinion, this is the place to go. They cover all industries from tech, media, consumers, industrials, real estate. There's basically any company you want. They're going to have expert interview calls on them. And if there's any hangup for a company in your research process, I really recommend going and checking out either Stream, any of Stream's calls, because they usually answer the question that investors are thinking. I've kind of found that when I'm reading the calls. So go ahead and check them out. It's streamrg.co backslash CCM.

I'm going to repeat that again. Streamrg.co backslash CCM. Link will be in the show notes. It's a 14-day free trial using promo code CCM. And yeah, like he said, link in the show notes. Without further ado, let's get to the interview. Welcome to Chit Chat Money. On this show, hosts Ryan Henderson and Brett Schaefer interview industry experts and riff on the world of investing. As a quick reminder, Chit Chat Money is a CCM Media Group podcast. Ryan and Brett are also general partners at Arch Capital, and Arch Capital may have positions

in the securities discussed in this podcast. Anything discussed on Chit Chat Money by Ryan or Brett or any other podcast guest is not formal advice or recommendation. Now, please enjoy this episode. Okay, welcome in. Today, we are joined by Joe Fremanski. He's an investor at NZS Capital. He was actually, I believe, Brett was corresponding, but recommended to us by a prior guest in

John Bathgate. And today we're talking Cloudflare. I guess, Joe, for starters, welcome to the show. My first question, you talked about this right before we hit record, but your specialty is kind of in IT and cybersecurity. How did you develop that specialty? And then was that something you've had throughout your whole career? Or is that something you, I guess, learned as an investor?

Yeah, well, thank you very much for having me on the show. Cybersecurity is something that I started really looking into five, six years ago, and it was something that really I had to learn. Prior to that, I had covered a number of different spaces, but cybersecurity was something that's obviously been around for generations. We go back to the first stateless firewalls and next generation firewalls and the like. However, what began to transpire is as the world continued to digitize, what we ended up starting to find out is that the importance of the IT stacks or the data that companies have was just growing immensely in importance to the point that if a company's data was no longer available to it, or if it were lost, or if a company was no longer able to actually function in a digital way, that was a serious loss of both credibility and straight-up revenue dollars. As the world continued to digitize, it became more and more important. It's been an industry,

having covered networking and the like, that I came in through that kind of angle and really began to explore that space in depth. But before we get into Cloudflare, I guess it sounds like you kind of had to teach yourself in this space. So do you have any recommendations for learning about cybersecurity, IT, for maybe the layman? Yeah, I mean, it's read everything, get your hands on and really kind of start off, you know, looking at the history of the space and what has really kind of transpired. You know, there's been some really innovative companies in this space for a number of times. but I would focus on learning about how the first generation of firewalls were created and how the overall security stack had to actually evolve as the way we do business changes.

So initially, when we were setting up firewalls in our offices, we were actually operating mainly within the four walls of an office. It was more of a castle and moat kind of situation where you weren't doing as much business externally. It was mainly internally. And you just want to make sure you kept the bad actors out at the gate. We wanted to keep them out of the four walls of the office building. And so we wanted to inspect that traffic coming in, stop the bad traffic, stop the bad actors at the gate, and then let the rest of the company operate as business as usual.

But as we began to evolve, as we began to adopt things like SaaS and adopt things like work from anywhere and all that, the way this model evolved began to show cracks. And so I think, you know, if you're looking at the cybersecurity space, You really need to start in the early days of the firewall and see how everything started to evolve going up to the next generation firewall, what companies like Checkpoint and Palo Alto and the like have done in the space, what Cisco has been doing, and look at what the history is. And then you need to start looking at zero trust, which is a complete paradigm shift when we think of cybersecurity. And there, you know, BeyondCorp has written a number of great papers, and I would definitely encourage people to research a lot of what zero trust is, and that will help them understand

really kind of where the future is in cybersecurity. Okay. And let's talk Cloudflare. What exactly do they do? Can you kind of explain it, I guess, to... They do a lot of things. That could be 30 minutes right here, but I don't know. What are the key things?

Yeah. Can you try to explain the business and then what kind of value do they provide to their customers? Yeah. I mean, sometimes the simplest questions are the hardest things, especially on companies that are complicated like Cloudflare. What is it they do? It's actually quite hard.

I mean, obviously, the company would describe themselves as a global platform designed to make everything you connect to the internet private, secure, reliable, with a mission statement of making the internet better. I mean, that's a big mission statement. make a better internet. But I think that the best way to actually kind of look at what they do is kind of actually look at how they do it, and what they've built. And I think then we can actually identify, really, what can they do? And I think that's a really better question to go after here. So when Matt Prince and Michelle Zablin and Lee Holloway got together in 2009, they obviously,

Matt and Lee had a previous relationship with the project Honeypot, which is actually kind of the beginning of Cloudflare. But they began to want to develop a cloud-based security service for websites. So as to protect against something called DDoS, which is distributed denial of service. And in doing so, what they found is they had to have a very distributed network of points of presence all over the world. Otherwise, that service that they were offering would actually cause the websites to be very glitchy, crash their latency. It just wasn't working unless they build out this large network. And what they did was actually develop a content delivery network. And I think it's important to kind of look at what a content delivery network is.

And I think that'll help understand really what they do going forward. So content delivery networks have been around for decades. Akamai has been a leader in this space for many, many years. And the best way to kind of describe it is a content delivery network lies between what a publisher of content and the user of content. So think of it as the Wall Street Journal is publishing their website and you're going to the website and doing it. The content delivery network allows that content to be stored locally or closer to the end user of that content. And in doing so, they have two key benefits. You significantly reduce latency or the load time for that web page because the traffic is only going over the last mile instead

of someone in LA having to access the Wall Street Journal's data center in New York, they're actually accessing a data center somewhere in the LA region. Secondly, the bandwidth or the data doesn't have to actually travel all that way. It's only really traveling the last mile portion. So that significantly reduces the cost of the network infrastructure that a company like Wall Street Journal actually has to put together because able to use this content delivery network so these networks lie in between uh the the enterprise and the end user and we can actually abstract that and say they in doing so it's not just content and someone watching reading the wall street journal online we can actually substitute those

terms with anything it could be an application on one end and a remote worker on the other end it could be a company's internal services and it could be something on the other end and so you can actually have anything on either side and so i think that's the first important thing is they created this content delivery network and then they intertwined that that network which is vast by the way it's over 250 cities have points of presence in over 100 countries i mean that's that's massive. And to put that into context, Amazon has about a hundred points of presence in a hundred cities with points of presence.

So it's almost twice as big as the AWS in terms of distribution or scale. And so they tie this together with also something called a software defined network. And so what that allows them to do is create a highly adaptable and programmable network that ties this entire massive network together and with that that allows the company to deliver more reliable and efficient load times and if more efficient data okay so we have this content delivery network and it's all tied together with software defined networking and that software defined networking instead of using dumb pipes where you're you're just

basically going into the general internet and and and connecting to this content delivery network you have a highly programmable software-defined network that you can actually create your own route more efficient routes to take that data you can program it to create prioritization of data versus other data and you can also have something that can adapt so if one route is being bogged down for one reason another you can reroute that traffic and you can do that in a software based way that allows developers and enterprises to actually through open apis actually be able to really tie into this and then finally what they do with this network is they they also have serverless edge computes they can actually do computation or compute at the edge of the network

and that allows you to actually be able to run run line it's a code closer at to the end user and that's a really important aspect when you look at the overall pie of what they've created now as an enterprise you connect into the cloudflare network and that network just to take a quote from john gage you know who coined the term the network is the computer cloudflare has created that network that can be the computer and then inside that computer you can run things like cyber security network security you can run content and delivery networks you run compute at the edge there's a whole lot of things that that can do that allows the company to really continue to expand their breadth of offerings.

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visit regent.edu slash learn more regent.edu slash learn more all right i think uh you hit some of the next questions here i don't want to i think you've talked about how they're differentiated from say like a fastly so we don't need to hit that but the relationship to the big three cloud providers for investors i think is probably something we want to hit on it's very important so why would someone add on cloudflare services instead of going all with aws or all with microsoft azure and in the future you know you talked about that educating stuff in the future would someone be able to use cloudflare only or do you think they'll always be attached um to the big three cloud providers or the cloud infrastructure providers in general or again is that the wrong

way to look at it no i i mean i i don't think that's the wrong way to look at it and and when i think about it a i think it's not in the either or situation it's definitely going to be an an situation. The fact that those edge compute and what they've developed there is not going to supplant what you currently have in a centralized data center where you're doing heavy workloads and heavy compute cycles that you need to do. It's not likely to replace, at least at this point. I mean, never say never. You don't know what necessarily Cloudflare is going to develop. They're innovating at a remarkable pace. But that being said, it's not likely to be a situation where it's an either or.

However, they are going to have opportunities to do things that will be in competition with some of those big guys. You know, the Edge Compute is in competition with AWS Lambda, which is their serverless offering. You know, one of the bigger things they launched last year was something called R2. And R2 is the opportunity to basically store data

or cache data, if you will, at the Edge and not have to pay the egress fee. So as that data flows out of AWS 3, you can cash some of that and go back. So those egress fees, all of a sudden, for a certain amount of data, it goes to zero. And that's definitely a shot across the bow to Amazon. In retaliation, Amazon obviously increased their amount of gigabits that they allow to go free from one gigabit to 100 gigabits. But still, it's one of those things that if you're bringing a lot of data in and out of Amazon, a Cloudflare R2 offering is a dream come true for you. So they will be in competition.

And Matt Prince has said that he wants to be the fourth major cloud provider. I don't think it's an either-or situation. I think it's more of an and situation. I think you'll see that it will be a situation that if Cloudflare survives, Amazon AWS has to die. It's more a situation that they are working in conjunction with each other in a number of different areas. And what Cloudflare is offering is something a little bit different than what Amazon has out there. Okay. I have a question that maybe might be a little basic, but how do they make money? What are the customers paying for? Because it sounded like there was a software component as

well, or is it like compute space? I guess, what's their pricing look like? Yeah. So, I mean, they have a number of different offerings that they have. And so you kind of have to look at them in a broad space, but they have everything from a pay-as-you-go service. They a free tier for some of their website hosting and in the like and they have a number of areas so basically uh as a a customer depending on what you you're utilizing them for it's it's a kind of a sas you know a flat rate model it's not a usage based model like some content delivery networks it is more of a flat rate on certain aspects of the business additionally as that moves forward um what you have is the the company continues to expand those offerings so their net

retention rate is something 120 124 and so the the com the customers are paying for really kind of various different services so let's look at some of these services in in isolation um like for instance they are one of the major players in the sassy space which is secure assets security edge and that is a really convoluted term for basically cloud-based network cyber security and in there what they're able to do is uh do network inspection of the traffic and the like and so they're competing there with a company like zscaler is is a direct competitor of theirs and so that's the service that you can pay for and depending on the level of service you know they have various different tiers of that particular service you know all the way from

a self-service tier all the way up to an enterprise level tier okay and that leads right into the tan question where these type of companies i think it's important because a lot of people that are in the industry you don't really know how big uh serverless compute cdns all that good stuff like how big is this market and we mentioned you mentioned in our pre-show correspondence that their tan has potentially gone up to north of 100 billion dollars now compared to a few years ago when it was only at approximately $32 billion. And obviously those are just estimates, but what are the key drivers of that? And is it those new products you mentioned that they've been announcing? Yeah. I mean, that's largely been what's been expanding the team. And so

when the company first came out, they were doing a much more narrow subset of network security. And they've been broadening that out over the years. And the pace at which this company innovates is is really breathtaking so um they have you know servers this week birthday week in all these weeks they they launch a whole dearth of new services and offerings and with that they basically are adding on new teams and so when they you know obviously when they they came public back in 2019 you know they had about 32 billion dollar tam is what they were looking at and there They were doing things like DDoS, their CDN offering and a wider network and the like. And what they've been adding to these offerings is some zero-trust services that includes remote, you know,

approved access management and data loss prevention and the like, VPNs. They've added carrier services as one of the areas that they're moving into where they can look at, you know, offering substitutions to MNLPS and SD-WAN and the like. As they continue to innovate, they're basically adding on entirely new TAMs. What's not included in some of those TAMs is their serverless offerings. Cloudflare Workers, which is getting a lot of really positive attention at this point in time, they can't even begin to put a TAM on that because serverless edge compute is such in the nascent stages of it.

There's not really a TAM to really define. They keep innovating. And that's part of the culture that Matt Prince and Michelle and Lee have put together is a culture of innovation, highly decentralized structure that allows them to continually develop and get these services to their customers. I think it's also important to kind of, on that point, talk about their free tier that they have. They've always offered a free tier of service, which not all companies give away a part of what they offer for free. and they've always had this free tier and it has two benefits to it one it allows them to get even increasing amounts of visibility into networks so if your host if you're putting your website up there or you're getting any traffic going through it that traffic gives cloudflare more

visibility secondly that's a pool of people that you can launch some betas to that you can test this stuff out in a rapid pace and begin to get this stuff out to the customers. So their ability to innovate is really unparalleled in the space. Pluralsight, a tech workforce development company, provides the solutions high-performing engineering teams need to tackle today's biggest challenges. Whether it's building the skills individuals and teams need to tackle mission-critical projects, driving cloud transformation, or helping software teams to ship reliable, scalable, and secure code. Harness the collective power of hindsight, foresight, and insight with Pluralsight at pluralsight.com slash vision. All right. We've talked about what the business does. I know

there's a lot more in depth that we could go into, but transitioning more to the actual business, what do the unit economics look like? Can you kind of maybe give a few metrics on the financials, you know, um, what their margins are and, and is this sense, you know, it's compared to, uh, their goal is to be one of the big three cloud providers or sorry, the fourth cloud provider. Is this a capital intensive business? So their cat, their margin structure is very akin to software on the gross margin basis.

So they have a, um, about a 78, you know, I would say between a 75, around a 75% gross margin, uh, level, um, currently a little bit higher than that today. and that is largely a function of how their business model is set up. If you look at their operating margins right now, they're breakeven. And they're generating last year, I think, just north of $600 million of revenue. So they're breakeven at that level. And they're projecting to remain breakeven for a long period of time

as they invest heavily into their sales and marketing and R&D. Those are areas where they view that they're continuing to innovate, continuing to bring new products to the market, and they're going to need to continue to get those products into the hands of the developers and enterprises that can use it. And so for the time being, they're going to be operating this company pretty much close to a 0% margin. However, if you look at how their long-term business model that they have, they're going to continue to spend heavily on R&D, but that sales and marketing really should begin to

scale as time goes on. And so you're looking at a company that could have operating margins around 20%. You asked about the capital intensity. And yes, I mean, they are putting servers into co-location data centers and into peering points all around the world. And so that is a moderately capital-intensive business to the point that they're currently spending somewhere between 10% and 15% of revenue into CapEx. That should come down as the company continues to scale.

But this isn't a CapEx-like business model. And so when you think of it also, another way is, you know, if you think about what the free cash flow margin of a business like this could be at steady state, which is still many years off, you're looking at something that's probably right around that 20% level. What does, so you kind of alluded to it there for a second, and you said they're pouring a lot of money into sales and marketing. What is the sales cycle or the sales process look for someone like Cloudflare? Are they just are they is it a lot of inbounds? Like are people asking to use Cloudflare services or are they kind of going direct to these CTOs and saying, replace whatever you have, use us because of blank, blank and blank? So the answer is both. So they have a direct sales model. And so they're not as heavily into the partner channel as some of their peers. So largely, it's a direct sales model. In that model, they have both a self-service tier where people are coming to them. These are maybe smaller developer teams that are maybe trying

out the service or something, and those are going to be a little bit lower price. And then they are going right after those enterprise or those large dollar accounts with direct sales people actually reaching out to the CTOs and CISOs. What's the, I guess, benefits of, I imagine these enterprises have some sort of solution that competes with Cloudflare. So why would an enterprise choose Cloudflare over, say, a competitor?

Yeah, so, I mean, when we look at it, let's just take a look at their security offerings. So they're sassy. You know, once again, whenever I say sassy, I think of Phil Hartman from the Saturday Night Live bit, you know, sassy. But their security offering that they have out there is part of the zero trust kind of way of looking at it. So if you look at zero trust, that is, it really got three aspects to it.

It's got identity, SASE, which is kind of your cloud-based network security, and endpoint security. And so if you're a company and you've developed yours and you're looking to transition to zero trust, Many, many companies are looking at this because with work from home, with SaaS, with all the ways that the network has evolved, this perimeter-based network security or this perimeter-based cybersecurity does not really hold water very well any longer. So we're moving to the zero trust. And when you look at zero trust, you're looking at a handful of services and providers. And so within the SASE space, which is that network security kind of space, you have a handful of players that are out there. And so they're looking at mainly either replacing that or they're a new and upcoming company that's looking at getting the first zero trust in place going forward. And so they will be looking at a company like Zscaler. Palo Alto has launched their own SASE network. You've got companies like Cato Networks and the like that have all developed this. But it's a small subset of companies. i guess i'm trying to think of like the hurdles for say a newcomer like how hard would it be to

disrupt cloudflare like what what are the hurdles for someone that's trying to do what cloudflare is doing is it possible i mean it's always possible i mean cloudflare built cloudflare so obviously someone you know over time could do it it's it's easier said than done um building a global network um that they have built uh is is quite difficult and and setting up the the structure it stack and the software defining network nature of the company setting that all up it is difficult um but not and not unheard of to develop um it's also a situation that you know if you look at some of these legacy companies that are out there it requires a big lift and shift. So let's think of a competitor like there's Palo Alto Networks, who's been a

real leader in the cybersecurity space for many, many years. They are transitioning to having their own SASE offering. And with that, they are having to really adjust not only their mentality and their sales model, but also their infrastructure and the fact that they aren't selling these point hardware products to companies as much in this business model. What they're having to do is actually stand up their own data centers or their own points of presence all over and connect those software defined networks and that's a little bit of i mean that's not necessarily something that they had been doing all along they have been moving in that direction um but this is you know a big shift in how they're doing it uh they're also building that on top of aws which um you

know allows a you know a faster entry to the market but as we highlighted aws isn't as close to the edge. Also, there's limits to visibility that you have when you run on top of AWS and your ability to do some of that routing and networking. But obviously, when we look at it, going back to what we had talked about earlier, Cloudflare as this network, this platform that they are, is not just purely only just the service security. That's a huge part of it. But they also have this networking as a service offering. They also have this edge compute offering. Those two offerings aren't something that a palo alto will look at and then if you look at amazon they do have some security but that's not necessarily the direction they go they're looking at more at the the edge

compute so there's not many companies that are trying to do all of the things that cloudflare is doing at once and that's really what differentiates them is there are some companies that have kind of created this kind of similar network but they're focused on just content delivery and or they're just focused on cyber security or they're just focused on own data compute and storage. And so Huffer is kind of in a league of their own of trying to actually address a much wider breadth of offerings. What are your thoughts on management and the founder, Matt Prince? Yeah. So the views on those guys are quite high. And the fact that what Matthew Prince and Michelle and Leah have actually created there, the culture of innovation

that they've actually developed is is really something to be in in awe of they painted with the innovate you know they've met the fact that they went they've added so many services over here i i think i i you can't even keep count of how many new services or new uh launches they do in a year because it's just it's a rapid fire a pace they have a a view that you know they are going to create whatever is needed for the customer and get it to the customer and it's it's It's really, you know, they have created something that is truly special over there. And so from a culture that they put in place, I think Matt and the rest of the team has really done and earned high marks. As far as, and I think I'd be remorseful if I didn't ask, because when you, I guess, screen for it and you see some of the, you see the valuation at first, it can seem sort of daunting.

So I guess, what are your thoughts on the valuation? And then what needs to happen for this to produce good returns at its current multiple? Yeah, so, you know, at this point in time, it's trading somewhere just north of 30 times sales. And so that's a healthy multiple by any respect. In order for a company to really earn that multiple and keep that multiple and still generate a healthier turn, And what we can take a look at is we can kind of back into what kind of growth rate that they would need to be able to sustain, what kind of free cash flow they would have to generate. So earlier we spoke that this company, the steady state, can generate something like a 20% free cash flow margin. And in this current market, a 3% yield on that cash flow margin is kind of where a company like this may trade at a more of a steady state kind of place. And so when you look at that and you say, okay, well, I want to generate a 10% analyzed rate of return, what type of revenue growth, how much revenue would I have to generate over that period of time?

And that would drop down to warrant that. And when you look at that, at 32 times EBITDA sales, you're going to have to grow a CAGR at 35%, which is, you don't have many companies that have done that for 10 years. And so that is, it's definitely a tall order. However, if you look at what that would yield in total revenue dollars, that's something close to about $10 billion of revenue. And if you look at that in respect to what we're currently spending on cybersecurity globally, it's about $170 billion. You're looking at something just short of 5% of that total addressable market for cybersecurity. However, as we've talked about, they're also doing edge compute, they're doing network as a service, they have content delivery. So if we take a look at the global IT spend of $1.6 trillion, and obviously both those numbers are growing, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that they can achieve $10 billion of revenue in 10 years.

It is a situation where when you look at that, the range of outcomes that would have to happen is, you know, it's definitely forces a prediction there that is, you know, uncomfortable for many. All right. Last question here. We hit, well, we like to do the last question as a premortem. And I guess we talked about how the investment could go wrong. It's really the revenue growth is a lot slower than 35% over the next 10 years. But I just want to hit on a question, more of the risk to the business like why would this business not be bigger three five or ten years from now is there anything that could disrupt that you know there's a couple of things that can happen you know on the execution side you know they are going in many many different

directions at once instead of focusing purely on just one of these areas like you know we spoke about just a moment ago where they're doing security they're doing network as a service they're doing content delivery, they're doing edge compute, you know, when you're going in so many different directions at once, you know, the risk to execution, being able to deliver on all those in a way that your customers expect, you know, that grows exponentially as you layer on more things. So, you know, is it a direction that is a situation that they go grow in many, many different directions, and they have a difficulty actually achieving scale in one or more of those different avenues. The other thing is, is, you know, you're competing against some very well

established companies, you're competing against AWS, Azure, Google Cloud, competing against Palo Alto, Check Point, Cisco, and then the new age guys, Zscaler, Fastly, and the like. You're competing against some really, really good companies out there. To the degree that they can catch up and maybe take some of that growth out of you in the form of just being a better competitor against you, those are the risks that you look at. days. Okay. I think that's all the questions we have. I guess for listeners that want to maybe keep track of you in any way, is there any way to do that? Can they get ahold of you in any way? Yeah. I mean, I would, I mean, I, I do have Twitter actually. I'm not an active Twitter

person. I've been trying to be a little bit better on that, but my Twitter is Joe, Joe underscore for Mansky. And then, you know, obviously we have our weekly newsletter from NZS in Brideslingerland, which is our Satol Weekly. And that is something that we contribute to quite often. So that's definitely the way to look at there. And it's NZS Capital. Look it up on Google. You'll be able to find it. Yeah. All right. Thank you, Joe. We want to remind our listeners that Brett and I are not financial advisors. So anything we say or discuss on the show is not formal advice or recommendation. We are, however, general partners at Arch Capital, so clients may have positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. Thank you all for

listening. We'll see you next time.