Chit Chat Stocks - Ian Gray | Acuity (ACUIF)

Episode Date: December 24, 2020

On the 24th day of Christmas Ian Gray gives to you, Acuity the demand side ad platform. Acuity is based out of Canada, but operate very similar to US company Trade Desk. Ian Gray sheds some light on a company that may have gone unnoticed for some time. Visit our website: https://www.chitchatmoney.com/ Subscribe to 7 Investing with the code "CCM": https://7investing.com/subscribe/ Follow Chit Chat Money on Twitter: https://twitter.com/chitchatmoney Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to 25 Stocks of Christmas presented by Chit Chat Money. Today we have an interview with Ian Gray, esteemed guest. We've had him on, I don't know, a million times. So probably a familiar voice. I think I said all this in the intro later, but we're talking Acuity where he has gotten a little bit of attention on Twitter from that. It's an ad tech company, kind of smaller cap, so pretty interesting business. And he goes over it pretty thoroughly. Yeah, competitor to the trade desk had a really good run this year. So people shouldn't be, you know, probably not piling all their money into it right now. It's got a lot of hype currently, but it's one where the business model is very interesting. And if they can execute, it seems like they got a lot of growth ahead of themselves. Before we get to that, word from our partners. It's my turn for the sales pitch.

I haven't even checked how we've done, but I imagine it's been doing pretty good, I hope. But it's 7investing, and you can get $10 off your first month if you use the code CCM. I know you guys hear this every time, but it helps us every time you do it. So feel free. It also helps our partners, and you get great analysis. So there's no reason you shouldn't. I mean, would you rather have that $7 mochaccino from Starbucks or the most sound investment advice of your entire life? Boom.

That's a great sales pitch right there. Okay. Here's our interview with Ed Gray. Welcome to Chit Chat Money. On this show, hosts Ryan Henderson and Brett Schaefer interview industry experts and riff on the world of investment. As a quick reminder, Chit Chat Money is a CCM Media Group podcast. Ryan and Brett are not financial advisors. Anything discussed on Chit Chat Money by Ryan or Brett or any other podcast guest is not

formal advice or a recommendation. Now, please enjoy this episode. Today, we are welcomed by Ian Gray, our esteemed guest. You've probably heard him here before, so probably a familiar voice. But today, Ian's talking acuity before we get into the business. why don't you talk about how you found Acuity? Yep. So as many of you know, Ryan and I interned at the Motley Fool this past summer, and we got to interact with a lot of analysts there. And one of those days we met with Jim Gillies, who's an analyst up with Motley Fool Canada. And he was

throwing some stocks around and kind of giving us a few tickers to look at and do some research on. And he asked if we liked the trade desk. And I said, you know, I had a share or two. And I said, yeah, you know, I like the trade desk. He goes, well, what if I told you there's a trade desk that's selling at a fraction of the multiple that the trade desk is? And I was like, well, that would be cool. But, you know, I was, I was a little bit skeptical. I'm typically skeptical of those types of claims. And I typically think, oh, this, you know, the business must not be very good or there must be some big issue here. But that's where I first heard about it. Then I kind I dug in, did my own research, and here I am today pitching it.

You know, Ian was actually the first one when we were trying to set up the script for these 25 Stocks of Christmas things. He was the one that said you should ask how people come up with their ideas. And so it came full circle. Yeah, it's always interesting. But yeah, you're right. Those comparisons between companies can kind of be dangerous. So why don't you talk more about the actual business?

What does Acuity do? Yep. So Acuity is a demand side platform in the ad tech space. So it's similar to the trade desk and the type of service it provides to its clients. I know you had Deval on earlier this month, and he really gave a great overview of what the demand side platform does and what the value proposition is for demand side platforms and supply side platforms. So I won't dive too deep into that. But I will say, basically, what happens is you're scrolling on a web page. And you're getting ads as you scroll through the web page. Generally, you think like, it's just loading the ads. But what's actually happening is there's a transaction happening in less than a second. that's basically sending your information to a supply side platform that then collects the supply. And it says, okay, this is Ian Gray. This is his gender. This is his age. This is a little bit about him. And then it sends it off to a bunch of demand side platforms that can have their clients who are advertisers bid on how important that ad is to them and pay for that ad. And then it shows you that ad and it all happens in a split second. It just looks like the page is loading,

but it's basically personalized programmatic ads to help increase ROI for advertisers. And it also helps with tracking. You can see what the person does after they visit that page to see whether the ad is having an effect. Whereas if someone just is driving down the street and sees a billboard, you might not necessarily know whether the person saw the billboard and whether that caused them to buy. Whereas with some of this programmatic advertising, you can see, oh, they saw this ad And then two days later, they became a customer. And so that's really Acuity's and all demand side platforms value proposition is to increase ROI for advertisers to both target the audience they want and to track how well their ads are doing with the audience they want. Okay. And how are they different than the trade desk? Are they doing almost the exact same thing or do they have a different way of going about it? Yep. So it's, they're just launching a new platform and I'll get into that in just a minute, but basically they're doing the same thing. There's two ways to do it. There's both a self-service side where people can set up their own campaigns. You might have your ad agency set up your campaign through their platform, or you'll have what's called a managed service where you'll say, this is basically the ROI we want.

this is how much money we're going to give you. And then Acuity's internal employees set up the campaign and kind of give you the updates on it. But basically, similar technology, similar platforms between the Trade Desk and Acuity for now. Like I said, they're just launching a new platform and I can dive into that in just a second. Okay. Yeah. And first, before that, do you want to talk about management at all? I know with a young company, it's kind of important, the management team, everyone loves the Trade Desk CEO. What's his name? Jeff Green. Yeah. What do you think about management at Acuity? Yeah. So management is interesting. The first thing I look at with management is how much of the company they own and insiders own

about 30%. They've been doing a little bit of, they've been selling, doing some secondary offerings basically. And so the percentages are changing, but it's about 30% of the company that insiders own. And so that's the first thing I look at and say, okay, they're aligned with my interests. They should be interested in the stock price appreciating for over long periods of time. and that's what I'm really looking for. I will say that management, um, and this could be seen as a good or a bad thing, but management does not like, just isn't like extremely charismatic or, um, like super, uh, like you're not like blown away by what they're talking about. And like these big dreams they have and all this type of stuff, they're like, they're fairly matter of

fact. And also, um, just kind of focused on the product and talking about it, but they're not they're not showmen, right? It's not Steve Jobs getting up in front of, uh, you know, at the worldwide developers conference or something like that. They're not big showmen, but they're, um, so far they seem to be very steady and really how we're going to track management is how they execute. They have, they've set forward a couple of plans that they are hoping to implement. And that's really how we're going to measure management going forward. The CEO is Tal Hayek, who, um, is one of the major shareholders. He was one of the founders. and he is the one that's the most public facing guy. You typically see him in the conference calls.

They've been doing some investor presentations and stuff like that, but he's the main guy you see out there. Okay. So I must've missed her. Was it the CEO or is he CTO? Sorry, can you say that again? CEO. CEO. Okay. Yep. What about just your thesis broadly? I know it's a smaller company and I guess this is more the crux of the discussion. So just why do you like them and why do you like them now yep so the thesis really breaks down into three parts one is the evaluation play and it's a little bit of hidden value i would say two is this new platform that they're launching illumine and three is their revenue and operating model so first i'll dive into the valuation piece of it the first thing is when you look at their price to sales ratio

it's a 15 they're trading at 15 times sales now and that's up significantly in the past six months, but the trade desk is trading at 60 times sales. And so that immediately kind of like lights up and you think, huh, why is the trade desk getting such a premium to acuity? One of the things that you should note is I've given you a price to sales ratio here based on net revenues. And that's how the trade desk reports revenues is net revenues. And I'll just give a quick breakdown of net revenues versus gross revenues. So gross revenues would be everything that they get from a client, including what they have to pay to buy the supply of ads, which typically is about half of what they take in. So basically, the trade desk reports

revenue as everything that they get minus what they pay for the ads, whereas Acuity reports revenue as everything they get. And so if you just do Acuity's price to sales ratio based on their reported revenue number, it'll look like it's lower than it actually is. If you compare apples to apples, it's 15 times sales to 60 times sales. But what that does, so even if like if just a valuation case, it's a, you know, it's a quarter of the premium that the trade desk is getting. And so that's somewhat attractive just from there. But then if you dive deeper, you realize that'll also buy if they if you look at acuity based on a net sales basis, their gross margins improve and their net margins improve. because they're working off of a lower revenue number than the total gross revenue. And so I

think some investors have probably been a little bit hesitant to invest in Acuity because their margins seem significantly worse than the trade desk. Acuity claims that if they were compared apples to apples, their margins would actually be better than the trade desks. I'm not sure if that's quite correct. But even if it isn't, it's somewhere close, they're in the same ballpark. And so that's kind of one of these hidden value things that just looking over the financials, you'll say, oh, their margins aren't very good. Maybe I shouldn't invest in this. But it's created a little bit of a situation where their margins are artificially depleted. And so they're trading at a little bit of a discount to the trade desk for that reason, as well as some others.

Another place where there's a little bit of hidden value is it's a small company, like you mentioned, it's about an $800 million market cap, whereas the trade desk is about a $40 billion market cap. And so there's a lot of institutions, a lot of investors who just avoid anything that small or can't invest in something that small. And so as it grows a little bit, then it starts attracting some more of those investors and presumably the valuation metrics would go up. And because of that, it's also had very... Oh, go ahead. I was going to say, what's the growth been like on the revenue side? I know Trade Desk is really growing quickly. Is the security up there or are they struggling a little bit more? Yeah, so I think now's a good time to get into that.

So Acuity is basically flat for the year, year over year in revenue, which I think provides another little place here where there's potentially a little bit of hidden value because some of their major clients were in the automotive space and the travel space. And those two took major hits. They were down 60, 70, 80% year over year in revenue collected from those industries. And so, um, despite that they've grown a lot in like direct to consumer brands or some of these other, um, you know, types of brands like that, that we're hearing on a lot of podcast ads or things. And so they've grown that side of the business. So they're, they're basically flat for the year. They're expecting, um, to significantly grow revenues next year. And like in prior years from their existence to now, they'd have been growing revenue at about an 83% CAGR,

which is kind of crazy. And it was based off pretty small numbers when they first started. But they've been growing revenue significantly until this year, basically. And so now the question is, can they ramp it back up once kind of coming out of COVID and with this launch of this new platform, which I can get into right now. So they're launching a new platform called Illumine. And there's been some controversy, particularly on FinTwit, about how good this platform is. And I think my response to that is, you know, well, we have to wait and see. but basically traditionally how these campaigns have been set up is acuity talks about it being

a black box you say these are the parameters i want you put it in it's very much looks kind of like a spreadsheet and it's not very easy to adjust or figure out exactly what's going on and seeing like the consumer journey and so they've tried to create a platform that is much more tune in tune with how marketers think. And so basically they give you a blank canvas and you're able to drag and drop items. And so you might say, this is the audience I want to target. Once, um, once I get that audience, I want to show them this ad. Once they've seen this ad two times, then I want to show them this ad and you can drag and drop your second ad onto the platform. Once they see that ad twice, then I want to show them this other ad. If they click on that

ad, I want to show them this ad, if they click on this ad, and then watch another ad, you know, you can just imagine all the possibilities there. But basically, being able to map out what you want your consumer journey to look like, which is different than how it's typically operated, where you might, you know, one of the big complaints about advertising is, you know, this was interesting to me, but now I've seen the same ad 100 times, and I don't no longer want to buy this product, and it annoys me. So they're trying to solve that problem and make it really easy for people who don't have technical experience using demand-side platforms to actually build campaigns, modify campaigns, track campaigns. If it's as good as they say it is,

I think it's going to be game-changing. And they're super excited about it. They think that the company is basically going to be a lumen in the future. One of the things the CEO has said is like, they always had trouble attracting clients. And that's been one of the hard things, like, especially with the trade desk in the space, it's hard actually attracting clients. It's kind of a little bit of a commoditized service at this point. So everyone's tech is about the same, but they're trying to break out of that. And they've said for the first time in their history, they've had people coming to them rather than having to seek out potential clients that people are interested in this platform, want to try it out. They had about

30 companies interested in doing beta testing with them. And they selected six and they finished the beta testing, officially launched the platform in October. And the CEO said he was expecting the sales cycle on this thing to be like six to nine months long. They're already, their teams in their last quarter, they were saying they're already expecting about a million dollars in revenue from this platform in Q4, which would be about a third of their, or sorry, not a third, be about 3% of their revenue for the quarter. So they really hope that next year is going to be a huge year for them

and really is going to start accelerating this revenue to a level even greater than what they had before 2019 or 2020. Okay. Where does most of their revenue come from now? I think I glanced over their IR page and I saw that they had a CTV offering, but is it most of it still like mobile and desktop? yes i that's a good question it seems like most of their stuff they don't break it out exactly

but it seems like most of their stuff is coming from mobile and desktop um primarily on websites uh website ads uh so that's that's where the majority of the revenue is coming from okay that's all the questions i have for the first half um we're gonna hit a quick break and then on the second half brett and i have some counterpoints for ian's thesis cox panoramic wi-fi includes advanced security to help protect all your connected devices you'll get real-time alerts oh like this one so you don't have to worry about malware or when your kid downloads a song from a shady link and now all your computer can play is red color red color where are you all blocked thanks to advanced security included with cox

panoramic wi-fi advanced security must be enabled in the panoramic wi-fi app restrictions apply welcome back in next up we have devil's advocate most of our listeners know how this goes we have our counterpoints i'm gonna go first and my first one's kind of uh strange uh but ian you post a thread on twitter this week about acuity basically um outlining your thesis And Acuity Ads liked your tweet, which is whatever. That's minute. That's not very big. But they also, when I went to their IR page, pumped a Motley Fool article, which was like, is this the new trade desk? Which the article is good and I like the author, but it feels weird. It feels like they're being promotional about their own stock, which I find is a red flag for businesses. Does that concern you? so i get the concern and i think there is a piece of that that is a little bit concerning like why are you having to promote your own stock why aren't you just focused on the business right

the reality is for a company like this it was a you know 100 million dollar market cap company not too long ago and it's kind of like this went public much earlier than many of the unicorns were seeing um in the public markets today and so a lot of times companies of its size would have had to go raise money in a B or a C round from investors, and they would have to pitch their stock, they'd have to pitch their company, they'd have to say, this is why you should invest and then get the multiple and then move on and run their business. But what they were having, they were already in the public markets. And so that pitching ended up coming out to investors more and public market investors, rather than private equity, venture capitalists, that type of stuff,

because they're trying to, like I said, they went public fairly early. And what's happened is Acuity oftentimes, and I know you and I have talked about this before, Ryan, but we don't like to see companies who are overly focused about stock price. We don't like to see companies who aren't focused on the big picture. But one of the things about Acuity has been the run-up in its stock price has actually had a materially good impact on the business because what it's allowed them to do is to raise money. They've strengthened their balance sheet through some secondary offerings that they've been able to do. Just today, they announced a shelf offering of $250 million, which basically gives them flexibility to raise money over the next two

years in a variety of ways. And they've been able to, like I said, strengthen the balance sheet, get prepared and hopefully be able to really grow the company using this new cash that they have because the stock has run up in price so much. And so while we don't want the short-term stock price to be a super important factor in why we invest or we don't want the management team super focused on it, it has given them new opportunities and also attracted new institutional investors, which then has run up the stock price more as well and just allows them to raise money because they were pretty cash light. They only had, I want to say, somewhere around $20 million in cash. And they didn't have a lot of debt, so it was okay. But it wasn't like some of these

massive balance sheets that we see from a lot of other companies. So it does concern me a little bit, but I think it's part of operating in the small cap space. And it's provided them more flexibility to be able to grow in the ways that they want to grow. Are they cash flow positive? so they are profitable they are not profitable they are cash flow well i guess in the last 12 months like it depends on adjusted numbers or not adjusted numbers but they're like basically break even they're expecting their model is that if they were um they've been operating cash flow positive the last couple of quarters and they're expecting to be operating cash flow positive for this year and their model is that if they could get up to 200 million in revenue and they're at

about 110 million right now, if they could get up to 200 million in revenue, that they'd have adjusted EBITDA margins of about 20 to 25%. So they think there's a lot of operating leverage and that they're just like, that they don't have to add too many more expenses with increases in revenue. And so it should be mostly going to the bottom line, any increases in revenue from here on out. Okay. And this might be a question you don't immediately have the answer to, but what's their stock-based compensation like? I know if they're given a lot of stock options, you know, the last few years and the stock price is depressed, that might not have impacted their, you know, share dilution. But if the stock soared, I mean, what is it up 10, 15x?

You know, do you know if that's materially going to impact their expenses at all? My impression is it's not going to materially impact their expenses. One thing I will note, this is another benefit I meant to say from the stock price going up is it does make them more attractive to talent because they can offer stock-based compensation. That's more, they can get better talent. They can get better, they can retain people in a different way because there's just more, there's a bigger pie to split up among employees. And so I generally see all of that as a good thing. And they haven't, from what I can tell, I have not been concerned with the amount of stock-based compensation that I've seen. Okay. I mean, there is, there is merit to

that um that the stock does materially benefit businesses um especially in attracting talent or like tech businesses ad tech where it's competitive and you're uh competing for talent it could be meaningful or helpful but there's always the uh it feels like i'm being sold to if they promote their stock sometimes yeah it's about yeah i think that's a fair point And I think one of the things that, like one of the things I'm looking at is basically when I've invested my own money in this company, I look at it and say, okay, if management, what management is telling me is correct, this should be a big winner. They might not be, you know, they might not be completely right about the future or truthful about the future, but if what they're telling me is correct, this is going to be a big winner. And I've been able to kind of take a look at it. And based on the valuation that it's at, it seems like a fairly good investment, right? Like, even if they were, even if they don't achieve these big numbers, 15 times sales for a company like this doesn't seem crazy.

And I think, you know, the other concern that a lot of people have had on FinTwit has been, and this is something Deval has mentioned too, is like this, they would say that this is a winner take all space. If this is a winner-take-all space on the demand side, Acuity probably doesn't win. It's probably the trade desk that pulls this out and wins in the winner-take-all space. The platform that Acuity is developing should provide a little bit of differentiation where it's attracting different types of advertisers and potentially carving out a little bit of a space within this huge, it's a huge market. And that's kind of what's also exciting about this space. But they should be carving out a little bit of a niche here.

And they expect, you know, and because of this money they've raised, they're hoping to iterate four or five times on this platform within the next year and really be able to get a strong technological advantage in this new, more self-serve, easy to use platform for doing these programmatic ad campaigns. Okay, I'll hit my counterpoint. This may be a bit just, you know, executional risk is kind of the main thing here, but, you know, they hype up the self-serve stuff. They hype up the thing you were talking about, the new initiative with, is it called Illumen or Lumen? Yeah, Illumen.

Illumen, okay. And then they also talk about CTV. However, right now, the overall revenue, again, is not doing well, mainly because of those travel things. And these parts of their income statement do not make much of their top line. So, it's all probably together less than 10%. There's a lot of executional risk there, I think, where, you know, they're going to have to grow these segments compounded in the high double-digit range for the next few years. Does that concern

you at all where you don't know if they're going to execute and if they don't, that could impair your investment? So, that is a concern. I think one of the things that mitigates that concern is their high insider ownership, that they are hopefully aligned with my interest and want to grow this thing over the long term. The other thing I'd say about that is if this company had grown at a rate similar to the trade desk over this year and had year over year growth numbers at a similar level, it would not be priced at where it is today. It'd be priced at a much higher multiple. And so when you're making this invest, if you make an investment in acuity, you're basically saying, okay, yeah, I'm getting a little bit of a discount today,

trusting management that they're going to be able to grow this in the future and that this was a blip on the radar that 2020 was a bad year and they're going to be able to grow this thing going forward and that this new platform is actually going to be as revolutionary as they say and so you're you know you kind of have a decision to make when you're looking at this space and you know i i have a few shares of the trade desk not it's not nearly as big a position for me as acuity is but i look at it and i say okay i can take the trade desk and overpay for quality and that's oftentimes a good thing, right? We pay up for quality

and for great businesses and top dogs. And that tends to be the way I invest or I can make a bet on something that may have a little bit, you know, traditionally not have been as high quality but has something, a new twist to it with Illumine. And, you know, this might just be a blip on the radar that then, you know, they start growing

at more similar levels to something like the trade desk and are able to achieve that higher multiple. And so it's a little bit, you know, do you pay up for the quality player and the top dog who, if this is a winner-take-all industry, would take the whole market? Or do you get a little discount on something that's innovating, creating a new platform, is kind of trying to take a lot of this market share? And the great thing about this is the market is growing. And so they don't actually have to take customers from the trade desk to be successful.

They can attract new customers. And I think particularly with this platform, that there may be people who are interested in programmatic advertising who in the past didn't want to deal with kind of the black box, the programmatic, the typical way that programmatic advertising has been, but it's much more accessible to use something that's more drag and drop, can kind of plan out consumer journeys, and you don't have to hire someone that's like a specialized programmatic advertising person in order to run a programmatic advertising campaign. What would drive a sell decision for you? So, you know, flip side, we're talking about the bull case here, but what would make you sort of wary as an investor? I'd say I'd be very wary

as an investor. In the super short term, if they didn't get a million dollars in revenue from this platform next quarter, they said that on their last conference call. And if they already were not hitting that, that would be concerning to me. But I'd say over the longer term, over the next year, if they continue, if they go into next year and revenues are still basically flat, that's going to be very concerning to me. If they cannot, um, that that's really what it comes down to. If this aluminum platform doesn't grow, like they say it could, then management would have been wildly off in their estimations of how good it was. And it would be very disappointing given the types of ways that they've promoted it and the types of waves that have talked about it. Um,

I would lose some faith in management and it would probably, uh, cause me to at least sell a good chunk of the position okay yeah it seems i mean it seems simple but with a business like this it's really all right are they going to come compound revenue at a high double digit rate for the next few years that's i mean yeah you got to look and see what the margins are there but it seems like that's kind of what you're looking at at least your first indicator and especially with like early on it's a lot of like is what management is telling me true like are they making promises and then actually delivering because if they're constantly lying and then promoting the stock it feels very uh boy who cried wolf kind of yeah like are they ever going to tell

us the truth but i mean there's no example of acuity doing that it's just kind of right when someone would watch no that's a that's a good point and i'd say one last thing on that um they have like despite being kind of promotional and excited about the platform their statements about what they expect it to contribute have been very conservative um they were saying like they weren't expecting um they weren't expecting results from this until next year now they're expecting some in the fourth quarter they were hoping to get some people for the beta program and they had over 30 people want to be in the beta program and so they've tended to uh under promise over deliver so far with this illumine platform and we'll see if they continue

to do that and you know i think if they continue to do that this thing could be a big winner but it all comes down to its execution like you said brett that's what it's going to come down to Okay. And are there any changes you'd like to see Acuity make? I know it's tough with a young business, but if you're looking at that in management, if you were management, again, that's a tough thing to think, or just hypothetically say, but is there anything you think that Acuity should do differently? Yes. I think the one thing that sticks out is with this Illumine platform, they're really looking to sell to big businesses is what they've indicated so far. um and i think i think there's probably plenty of customers there but i think there's also a potential for them to sell this to to smaller businesses and maybe even someone like chitchat money because those customers are going to be um easier to onboard once they get onboarded like you guys at least from the demos they've done you guys could design a programmatic ad campaign for

chitchat money and it would be like you could figure it out you could track it and so could i Right. Like it's not a super complex system from what it looks like. And so it's easy to use. And I think there's a lot of market available and people who aren't using programmatic advertising and that small and midsize businesses. And so I'd love to see them create an offering where you could just go to their website, click a button and start building your programmatic ad campaign, you know, in five minutes and really get some revenue there. If they could do that, I would be I'd love the company even more. it would be awesome. Yeah. Cause right now the only place you can really go to get effective ads is a Facebook platform for small businesses. And then you can do search with Google, but I would argue a lot of their Google ads since their website ads really stink. Uh, so I mean, there,

there's gotta be a chance to have at least another player here. I know trade desk is trying to do that as well, but I mean, it seems like there's an opportunity for small businesses out there if they can get it. So it's simple enough, like someone that's using Facebook or, and it's got of work you know yeah right yeah and should we do a ctv yet yeah i don't know all right um well i think that's all the questions we have for you in um that's all i mean most of the listeners know who you are but where is a place that uh anyone can find you yeah you can find me on twitter at ian gray live or my website is ian gray live.com yeah and that is a uh sub stack correct or do you switch it uh it's you can link to my sub stack there that's actually okay but yep all right

and the sub stack is the sub stack is optimist investing okay okay and then yeah you'll be back on in january um and doing some deep dives with us again yep looking forward to it okay we want to remind our listeners that we are not financial advisors anything we say or discuss here on chit money is not formal advice or a recommendation thank you guys for listening we'll see you next time We'll see you next time.