Chit Chat Stocks - Jim Gillies | Nelnet (NNI)

Episode Date: December 4, 2020

On the 4th day of Christmas Jim Gillies gives to you, Nelnet the conglomerate. More popular for its student loan services, Nelnet actually operates many different business segments. Chit Chat Money and Jim Gillies open up a discussion about the pros and cons of the business. Visit our website: https://www.chitchatmoney.com/ Subscribe to 7 Investing with the code "CCM": https://7investing.com/subscribe/ Follow Chit Chat Money on Twitter: https://twitter.com/chitchatmoney Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to 25 Stocks of Christmas presented by Chit Chat Money. Today we are having Jim Gillies on the show and we're going to be talking Nelnet. It's a lot of fun. It's a unique company and you and I both came away really liking it. Yeah, it's interesting. It has a unique business, unique cash flows, a unique capital allocation strategy and that's right up Jim's alley. Apparently he runs a few services that he talks about at The Motley Fool and we enjoyed it a lot And then before we get started, though, we've got to do the 7investing partnership, correct? We don't have to do it. We get to do it.

We get to do it. That's right. We have our partnership with 7investing. You can use the code CCM at checkout, and you get $10 off your first month. We just got another one yesterday, so we're rolling in it because we get that kickback. So if you want to help us out, feel free to do that. Not to mention, they have great analysis, so it's well worth the money. Exactly, yeah.

$7 for your first month. Great team over there. That's all I can say. Yeah. All right. Here's your interview. Today, we are welcomed by Jim Gillies, lead advisor for Hidden Gems Canada, a Motley Fool service. I actually met Jim this summer in my internship at the Motley Fool. So Jim, welcome to the show. How are you? I'm pretty good. Thanks for having me, guys. And you are talking Nelnet today. How did you find this company?

That's a really great question that I don't have an answer to. It resonated with me. I read a lot of blogs. I follow a lot of Twitter feeds. I read a lot of publications and newspapers. And probably about six months ago, I kind of came across on a blog or something. I looked at it, and they mentioned it was out of Nebraska. And so I started poking around at it, and it quickly became my second favorite company

out of Nebraska. first one maybe Berkshire right first first one's a little larger and run by a couple of uh 90 plus year olds but yeah it's uh it was I I found the story fascinating right right okay and then it is kind of a mini conglomerate a bit I know they have one business that's quite large but can you explain what Nelnet does because I think when someone looks at it originally they're going to be like I have no idea how this business even works well and Brady that that's kind of the hook here. My investment style is, I want you to say what the hell whenever I recommend something or look at something. I like confusing, I like the contrarian, special situations,

that sort of thing. There's plenty of growth investors out there, but there's not a lot of what the hell is this investors. This company falls very well into what the hell is this. it's a collection of businesses it's a collection of you know we'll call it how do I put this a lot of call options if you will a lot of kind of almost venture capital bets is a really strong business hidden under a giant pile of student loans that's largely matched with debt, which will scare practically anyone off. And so this is the, this is the confusing stuff. If you look at this company and I'm going to roughly make up the numbers because I don't know my spreadsheet, that part of it opened in front of me, but you know,

you look at this company and if I tell you, you know, your basic screen is it's got about 75 million in cash and close to 20 billion in debt. And it's a two and a half, $3 billion company. most people go well that's it for me i'm out yeah right and and that reaction is wrong in my opinion okay okay can you explain like uh how this student loan stuff works like what part of the process are they actually in i know there's some part that uh the government actually took over but they're going to be doing for like a decade longer can you uh just shed some more shed some more light on that sure well it's probably best to split the student loan part into kind of two pieces Okay. Okay. And, and, and you're giving away my secret sauce with the part that government took

over or split away. But they, they basically there, there's a bunch of different pieces to this business. They've all got, you know, like the little three, three letter acronym. So this is, we're going to call this a Nelnet diversified services or NDS. This is their student loan origination and servicing arm they get paid on a per account basis and they work for the federal government and for state agencies and for banks and other fintech companies and at the end of last year uh they were doing nearly or they were servicing nearly half a trillion dollars in loans but 475 billion i think um for over 15 million customers and so you know they that that's not nothing right right and you get uh you know there's various revenues from that it's it's a

it's a reasonably growing business i think it did about it's not it's not going to knock the lights out but it's it's it's been reasonably growing a couple percent a year uh and they're and they're just the service like now the problem is and i when my valuation process i almost value this business which i just mentioned is doing half a trillion dollars a year uh or servicing half a trillion dollars a year in in in loan um i i had 450 million ballpark revenue for them i almost value this business as a zero really which again is right what the hell is this right um that's going to be the theme hopefully you can take some mild cursing um no worries but the but the the idea is so so they basically have had a couple of contracts with the government um which we won't

get into the the weeds of these things but they basically lost both of them uh and so now the government doesn't sound like they have a um a plan really to to replace them um and they've already the government has already pulled uh the ripcord on extending one of the contracts through to mid-2021 um and there's i'll i'll bet you coffee uh they're gonna they're probably gonna to vote to extend the next one, and Nelnet's going to fight to probably get these back, but assume that goes away because we don't need it in the investment case. Assume their largest highest revenue part of the business goes away. They still serve as various federal private education and consumer loans. That business is about $50 billion as opposed to

it's about like one-ninth, one-tenth the size of the big government business, and that's about 50 billion loans for about two uh two million borrowers um so that business will stick around so maybe you want to throw a bit of valuation in for that but i assume the government business is gone you know and so call it a zero if you want that's cool um but that's the ongoing student business now what you were referring to earlier was the business the types of loans that have been gone uh for nearly a decade and that is we're going to call it the um uh and nelnet financial services nfs as opposed to nds this is the big pile of student loans on the balance sheet it's about 19 and a half billion i think um it's about 19 and a half 20 billion somewhere in there

they they they own both the the loans as assets and of course there's a matching debt against a lot of that. But that's kind of the kicker of why you want to invest here because this giant pool of student loans, basically, this pile of student loans, this is a slowly melting ice cube or slowly amortizing ice cube, I suppose. And so it's about $19.5 billion, I think, last time I checked. A year ago, it was like $21.5. A year before that, it was almost $23. the vast majority of these uh loans of this loan portfolio uh like i'm talking 98 of it uh is backstopped by a federal government guarantee uh of between 97 and 100 so there's almost zero default risk here for for nelnet wow and see i told you it was fun that is that is a

little bit exciting okay well you want you want me to make it better yeah yeah okay you guys are students or you've recently been students that's been a while for me um the student loans when you when you take out a student loan it's generally at a fixed interest rate right the financing is at a floating interest rate what have interest rates done this year oh right they've cratered Right. Yeah. Nelnet earns a spread. So their spread as interest rates have dropped, their spread has widened. Okay. So interest rates falling or interest rates falling is actually a good thing for Nelnet. When in most cases, it's a bad thing for someone that's servicing loans like this. And so for this portfolio, yes, it is. So when investors look at the most recent

earnings uh letter and they see that net income is up a hundred percent year over year that's what that's pretty much what is responsible for that right yeah there's a lot of accounting i'll use the word chicanery even though chicanery implies something negative it's not is the accounting obscures what's actually going on here okay okay you know and i live with an accountant so i i'll routinely tell her that um but uh you know oh well you know we have once had a two-hour enhanced discussion about the proper way to recognize deferred tax assets so yeah my house my house knows how to party um yeah so but no it gets better not only is this this largely default rate not only is interest rates the drop in interest rates or the drop to a low

interest rate environment good for Nelnet but how long are interest rates going to stay low I mean I've seen various things that poke you out through to 2023 yeah okay now here's the second kicker if you you can go in go look at their filings they will actually tell you what their forecast is for when they expect the cash flows for this nearly 20 billion dollar um you know portfolio to roll in now of course they don't get some they don't get all of it because something has to pay off the securitization against it but you get a reasonable forecast here and so at the start of 2020 there was expectation that the total cash flow to Nelnet would be just shy of 1.9 billion over the next 20 years okay as of the most recent quarter

because interest rates have dropped even and and they've already collected three quarters of cash on this but the that number has gone from 1.98 or sorry 1.89 billion to the forecast is now 2.26 billion so they've actually collected cash for nine months so far in 2020 and the expect expected forecast has gone up and that's a result of that spread i told you about but then if i told you that of that two points 2.26 billion um let me just double check here make sure i'm quoting you the right number um 1.37 billion or 61 percent of it is going to come in in the next four and a quarter years so nearly two-thirds of it comes in in the first five years most of which we are expecting to be um in a reasonably low interest rate environment so this is incredibly front-loaded

this cash flow forecast okay okay and with a with a with an almost guaranteed like you know 98 percent of it backed up by a government guarantee of 97 to 100 what kind of a discount rate you want to put on that in a low interest rate environment for valuation purposes yeah i mean pretty low yeah low i think i'd agree on that so they're guaranteed essentially and correct me if i'm wrong but the business right now is valued somewhere around uh 2.6 yeah 2.6 two and a half yeah um so they're guaranteed about 50 of their market cap or enterprise value in cash flow and You're essentially betting that they're going to be able to allocate that capital into other investments well, correctly? Correct. I've got for the next five and a quarter years,

so I'm throwing the last quarter of 2020 and then the next five years if this forecast remains static. Like I said, it's gone up this year, but I'm assuming we're not going to get negative interest rates. I'm assuming that the interest rates will stay flat and probably start creeping up for the next five years, but it's still, it works out fairly well here. I'm looking at about a $42 a share in cash coming in, in the next five and a quarter years. And we haven't talked about any of the businesses here. And I've already thrown out most of the loan business, like I told you. Right, right. And then, so I guess the other thing to consider are, you know, what are these other businesses that they have or any minority investments? And then what has management said

their goal is uh you know for i mean this one point what is it six or 1.3 billion in cash flow they're going to come that's going to come in are they going to do repurchases um are they going to pay it out as dividends or are they uh just trying to invest in other cash flow businesses yes yes yes and yes okay that is basically this is a really interesting business because it's they are all they almost don't care about uh the wall street story there's no attention being paid here so they do pay a dividend pay a modest dividend um i don't have the yield in front of me it's yeah one one plus percent i think um we could look it up or your listeners could go look it up right um they they have occasionally paid out a special dividend because insiders here

have a not insignificant part of the business. Um, I believe it's on the 40 to 45% level. Um, mainly one of the co-founders and then the estate of the other co-founder, uh, who passed away, uh, I think about two years ago at a relatively young age, I think he was in his sixties. Um, so, uh, there is, uh, uh, like that other Nebraska business down the street, these guys are headquartered in Lincoln, Nebraska. There's someone down the road in Omaha, Nebraska, about an hour away, who has a fairly similar level of ownership interest. He, of course, enjoys being out of the Wall Street eye. I think these guys do as well. These guys are much, much smaller, obviously. They pay a modest dividend. They have been

buying back shares in the first half of the year. I think they took out about 3.5% of the company uh they didn't do much in q3 which was a little weird to me but uh you know it's not like they're not going to get more of an opportunity they were but they were really active i think in the first half especially in q2 um and then you know management talks about uh their they actually give you a really nice some of their filings i'm not too sure which document it is it's either the annual report maybe the uh the management information circular every year that comes with the proxy but they give you like a rolling seven year depiction of where they've thrown their capital you know they are very keyed in on uh doing a good job of capital

allocation and why shouldn't they be because it's their money tied up in it like i said about 40 45 percent i think is uh is the uh ownership interest i'm just gonna look that up yeah i got it about 44%. So there you go. And so what do you think of, I mean, it sounds like it bears a passing resemblance to the other company in Nebraska. They're just generating cashflow in a different way. This is from loans versus insurance. But what do you think of management broadly? Because you're essentially betting on management, right? You're betting on their ability to allocate capital um i i think highly of management perhaps not as highly as that other company down the road but of course that other company down the road is kind of special case um these guys have had uh

less of an operating history by want of being significantly younger than mr buffett um you know and and they uh i i do think well of the current chairman and the current ceo they've also brought in some some of what i'll call their venture their venture bets they've got a couple one which we mentioned before we started recording uh where they have the gentleman who's in charge of that one particular venture bet is on their board uh they they are very keyed in on on intelligent capital allocation that includes dividends stock buybacks uh they did some debt buybacks when they had some debt they've got again a lot of venture stuff they've got a couple of other lines of business which we haven't even talked about yet you know and they've made very sporadic acquisitions

but still everything is you know held up through this capital allocation lens and then they present it to you and say look at how we've done but we are going to hit a good break and then we're going to try to poke some holes in your thesis bring it on cox panoramic wi-fi includes advanced security to help protect all your connected devices you'll get real-time alerts oh like this one so you don't have to worry about malware or when your kid downloads a song from a shady link and now all your computer can play is red color red color where are you all blocked thanks to advanced security included with Cox panoramic Wi-Fi. Advanced security must be enabled in the panoramic Wi-Fi app. Restrictions apply. Okay, welcome back in. Now we're going to do devil's

advocate. We've done this on the show before, but for anyone that doesn't know, we've presented some sort of counterpoints to try to poke holes in Jim's thesis, and we're going to let him try to refute them. So the first one for me is a lot of college classes are online right now. And so there's been a lot of talk about, oh, I'm not going to pay as much for school and whatnot, stuff like that. And so if there's pricing pressure from college, they may see a decline in lending, which would negatively impact Nelnet. Will it though? I've literally, I mean, like I, I've already kind of headed you off, right? I mean, because I've said basically the one part of this business, this giant pile of loans they've got, that's not going to – a reduction in less lending and lower student borrowing, lower costs, that's irrelevant for that pile of loans.

Those loans were made 10, 15-plus years ago, and they're just slowly amortizing an ice cube. And on the other front, I've said, well, this servicing stuff, the government already kind of did that for you and gutted that part of the business, which I'm fully willing to say is worth zero or very, very little because of, you know, let's assume those two large government contracts are gone. The 15 plus million borrowers, the $445 or $450 billion or $475, whatever I said earlier, billion dollars worth of loans. Let's assume those also go away. we're not going to be servicing those anymore. And we're just doing this small amount of loans. I'm like, I'm fine with that.

Right. So, I mean, to me, to me, and, and I mentioned there's a couple of other lines of business here that we haven't even talked about.

Okay. And then maybe after my next counterpoint here, we can discuss those for a bit. Uh, this one, I think you may have already answered. So I guess I'll frame it in a slightly different way. So there's a lot of talk again about forgiving student loans.

There's a lot of talk about making college free, public college at least free. Does that impact the interest income they're going to earn on these loans? Or would that actually be a benefit where they're going to get all that cash flow in at once and not over the next decade? Right. And that's what would happen. I will happily, I mean, I'm a Canadian, so my student loan situation isn't what your student loan situation is down there. But I will happily say to your federal government, if they want to call me up, by all means, forgive the student loan. You can write a check to Nelnet for the loans that were made 10 and 20 years ago because someone will have to make good on those obligations. You just can't turn to Nelnet and go, yeah, we know you own these, but we're not going to pay you.

The government's going to default on that. I mean, that would probably not sit well with various legal challenges Nelnet would mount. But if you want to make a one-time payment of $19.5 billion to Nelnet and they'll take the cash and pay off their securitizations, bring it on. Yeah, I mean, that does sound even better because, I mean, you get all that cash flow at once. They're going to have the ability to invest in all these businesses now instead of having to do it incrementally over the next decade. and some and we just had lawrence ham till on not too long ago and he talked a lot about um when government is reliable for a bill they usually pay their bills and i think that's sort of the case we're getting here with known that as well yes well they also have a printing press too right

so and look not that not that 19 and a half 20 billion dollars is a is a insignificant amount of money but you know it's it's not exactly something that the government worry about okay so we have talked about the loan side of the business but you said and you've mentioned now that they have other investments as well do you want to talk to some of those sure so we've talked about nds which is the loan servicing we talked about nfs which is the giant portfolio of loans. We haven't talked about Nelnet business services. So Nelnet business services is education technology services and payment processing. It is basically software as a service business for private K-12 schools and over 1,300 higher education institutions.

these revenues are sticky as in you bring Nelnet's software into your educational institution you are probably not getting rid of it six months later when a competitor offers you five percent cheaper once they're in they're in these are you know these are good sticky revenue and it's been a growing business coming from 2015 through 2019 NBS compounded revenue at about a 15 percent clip they compounded pre-tax income at a 19% clip. Yes, in the first half of the year, the pandemic slowed that growth rate to 1% on the revenue line and 8% on the pre-tax income line. That's still not that bad, frankly, given the slowdowns in so many other areas due to the pandemic. So this is an interesting business line. And oh, look, there's a public competitor who we

could use as a valuation proxy that is growing slower. So that's interesting to me. They have also what's called Nelnet communication services, which is their fiber to the home or fiber to the premises arm serving, passing or serving more than 170,000 households in Nebraska and Colorado. It's also known as Allo, A-L-L-O. I'm not sure why. Go ahead. on the uh the sort of the sas business the one for the k-12 that software who is using that software is that for like uh administrators or is that yeah okay the whole institution would would use it you know use it for tuition processing uh for um uh basic yeah well basically tuition processing and just scheduling everything and making sure that your institution

works okay so it's kind of like software for the principal's office essentially sure it's a good good way to put it they mainly are in private um uh k through 12 as i said um but uh they are looking at more higher higher education institutions uh they are looking to go into the public sector as well obviously the tuition part of it would would go away because we don't usually pay tuition uh for our public schools um but they're also looking internationally and and this is you know this is a business you don't know exists if you don't read the filings you know this is just it's because again this is a big student loan business right i mean when i when i first started looking at this business i mentioned some of my colleagues

at the motley fool and you know the only response i got have you ever looked at this the only response i ever got was oh nelnet they hold my student loan god i hate those guys so i'm like no but it's not a student loan business only um so anyway there's the student there's the there's the school the sass business again that's kind of hidden um there is the fiber to the home business which we just got a good idea of what that business is worth because they just sold a majority stake in it i think they've retained about a 48 percent uh and that business is um i think i've got their segment of that business of the 48 47 percent version that's worth almost 400 million wow so we've got that then there's a little business i know you guys are familiar with

this is their venture capital bets they specifically there's specifically a piece called huddle yeah and this is one of this is one of 35 of these what i'll call startup venture bets that are within nel net that you don't that you don't know is there um but huddle's probably the the best one uh or certainly the most significant one the rest of them can go to zero what do we care But Nelnet owns about 20%, just shy of 20% of Huddle. Huddle's CEO and co-founder, David Graff, is on Nelnet's board. They've attracted some deep-pocketed co-investors, including Bain Capital. And what Huddle does, you guys already know, it's a sports performance analysis platform.

So video analysis, scouting software for professional or minor league college and youth sports. They claim to have more than 6 million coaches and athletes in 139 countries using their products and services across 160,000 teams in 35 sports. And so to dumb that down for anyone who is not familiar with huddle, like if you've ever played high school football or there's other sports as well, that's how you're breaking down film as a team. Or if you want to do a highlight clip because you're trying to play college or something like that, you do that through huddle.

And pretty much every high school I knew or every high school athlete had to use huddle. Yeah. And the coaches all use it as well. There was an example in my experience of a coach not using huddle. So it seems like they basically have a lock on this market. It might not be a giant market, but I know that you weren't stealing your pitch a little bit, but it seems like from our experience, anecdotally, there's no competitors out there. Yeah.

Brady, my pitch is here is a crazy great business that you've never heard of. That's my pitch. And so here, as part of it, you get huddle. They own 20% of huddle. And one of the rare things, if you remember your accounting classes, you recognize all losses when probable, but you only recognize gains when they occur, right? Because of the whole principle of conservatism.

Again, I live with an accountant. We have these types of conversations. um i imagine i i can envision the the the room at nelnet they had to be dragged kicking and screaming here but in i think it was in q2 they may might have been q1 of this year but i think it was q2 they they huddle sorry nelnet participated in the most recent um financing round for huddle they they did throw in some extra capital they threw in i think about 26 million uh they had to write up on their books the value of their investment by 51 million dollars so basically huddle just based on the the most recent valuation at some point i suspect huddle

because they are dominant as you say i suspect at some point this will either be sold to a private equity group or maybe we even see it public and then well that's how we'll realize the valuation there. But all of this is to say that people looking at Nelnet and thinking of it as just a student loan provider, I hope I've shown actually it's not just a student loan provider. And in fact, the student loan, the regular ongoing servicing business is probably the least interesting part of this company. Okay. So what would have to happen? We'd like to look at the flip side because you're getting us kind of antsy. We like that. but what would have to happen for you to sell the business?

What could go wrong? That's an excellent question. I'm not sure yet. They would have to do some sort of a demonstrable stupidity in cash allocation, capital allocation. You know, and,

and I'm, we don't see that. Of course, the best predictor of the future is, is to what look at what they've done in the past. Compensation is reasonable. I mean, it's,

it's nice. We'd all like it, I think, but you know, management compensation is not egregious. Um, you know, I haven't even mentioned them getting a bank charter, which they did. Um, you know, which is also, I'm valuing at zero, maybe they get something, um, you know, in terms of pulling out, uh, uh, you know, making deals that are weighted heavily to management payoff and not so much to their shareholders. I could see that ticking me off enough to make me sell uh i'm i'm very much the kind of guy who's in the um who's who's drank the kool-aid if you will of i'd probably be better off if i never sold anything ever and that includes my losers um and i'm and i'm not a go-go growth kind of investor kind of guy so i mean uh you know

we can probably throw that i know a lot of people the the present market environment that we're in says uh is really tilted towards growth um money losing growth usually uh but i kind of look at this and go they'd have to make um some really bad uh or self-serving capital allocation decisions where i felt disenfranchised from the benefit and uh i'm i'm not sure we'll see that but that would be one way for it to do it the other thing that would make me potentially sell is extreme overvaluation. And even in those situations, I think, because, you know, I hold my Nelnet in a taxable account, so I would have to pay my government a fine portion of my gain, which I might not want to do. And therefore I would have to reinvest in something where,

you know, I would have less money in theory. So I would, you know, when I say extreme valuation, The stock today is at 70 bucks. Um, I can make a very reasonable case that it's worth in the mid eighties today, mid to high eighties. I think you can make a case it's worth almost a hundred today. If you give them credit for that business, the student loan business is going away. Um, and so I, you know, when I say extreme valuation, you'd probably have to give me well over 120, probably 140. Right. Okay. That makes sense. And then last question, we'd like to wrap up here if you were you know made king of Nelnet for a day uh what is one change you'd like to see them to make I know it's a little different for this type of business

because it's really like all right we're betting on the capital allocation but um anything that you know you'd change get your story out there the story is not out there there's they they are almost a completely a lincoln nebraska story and look lincoln nebraska is a fine town uh i i've been there when i was you know at a berkshire hathaway meeting a good number of years ago uh you know because it's only an hour away and we went out for a drive um you know but it's like everyone from the board practically everyone is from from uh lincoln it's lincoln only and no one's heard of it like i said when i when i did mention it the motley fool um the only response i got from from co-workers was oh i had my student loans i hate those guys uh ryan i don't know if

you participated uh during your internship you knew that we had the the the fool research database fool iq right but you know one of the favorite things i do like like you know you're gonna go you're gonna go talk about a company like i don't know uh tesla or apple right i mean there's already a bazillion things in the database from various analysts like i'm gonna add no value frankly um but when i can find companies that aren't even in the database because no one in the entire history of the motley fool's research database existence has ever looked at them that excites me and that was nelnet among others actually but we're only talking about nelnet today right yeah i mean i i guess we don't use the full database but anytime i tweet something out on

twitter and it gets like no likes it kind of turns me on to the idea that maybe people aren't following it and maybe it's less efficient yeah exactly i'd agree yeah and that's just it like if you can find or uh the other thing i would say is if uh if you find a story uh where everyone knows the outcome like everyone already knows it right and so if everyone already knows it no one does any work to verify it right right and uh we we could talk about that another day because that's another kind of favorite kind of hunting ground as you know when everybody knows something someone's probably not thinking too hard and it might be worth your while going to verify the story maybe you'll find out the company's terrible and maybe you'll find out

it's actually better a better story than you thought it was right it's kind of like that mark twain quote um i think that it's popular by the big shorts right it's what you don't it's what i'm gonna mess it up it's what you know for sure that just ain't so right that's correct yep okay well that was nelnet and that was jim gillies jim where can uh listeners find you or find any of the content that you put out sure uh so i am the lead advisor for motley fool hidden gems canada so it's uh because i mentioned i am canadian i've been with the fool for 15 almost 16 years now um and And I hang my hat in Canada, but what most people don't realize south of the border, aside from the fact that Canada is like a whole different country, is that the Canadian equity market is only about 3% of the world equity market. So we're big, strong advocates that Canadians need to invest outside the U.S.

So our frontline services in Canada, Hidden Gems, Stock Advisor, half of our stock picks are U.S. because, you know, go where the stocks are. so Hidden Gems Canada I make guest appearances in Stock Advisor Canada and the other Canadian services I'm a regular guest on Market Foolery if any of your listeners are Motley Fool subscribers to anything they have access to Motley Fool Live

I'm a regular guest on Motley Fool Live including the morning show as well as the Canadian Power Hour which we do every couple of weeks in which I'm doing it about 45 minutes after we finish recording so I'm out there and I'm on Twitter

at, at, at Jim P Gillies. So you can trash talk me there. It's cool. Perfect. Okay, sweet. We want to remind our listeners that we are not financial advisors. Anything we say or discuss here on Chit Chat Money is not formal advice or recommendation. Thank you, Jim. Thank you listeners for listening. We'll see you next time. Thanks for watching!