Chit Chat Stocks - Lemonade (LMND) | Deep Dive

Episode Date: October 15, 2020

Lemonade Insurance provides renters and home insurance policies for homes, apartments, co-ops and condos. Your hosts, Ryan Henderson and Brett Schafer welcome on Ian Gray for this week's Deep Dive show. Lemonade was founded in 2015, but didn't IPO until 2020. Ryan covers what specifically Lemonade's services entail (1:40) and Brett touches on their industry (5:00). Ian discusses the management and ownership (7:05). Stay until the end to find out if your hosts think the company is worth more research. Enjoy the show! Follow Ian and check out his work on Twitter: https://twitter.com/IanGrayLive Follow Chit Chat Money on Twitter: https://twitter.com/chitchatmoney Subscribe to Chit Chat Money on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCG5Ni-SI-jyrEsoNUhqftNQ --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/chit-chat-money/support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Restrictions apply. Welcome to Chit Chat Money. On this show, hosts Ryan Henderson and Brett Schaefer interview industry experts and riff on the world of investment. As a quick reminder, Chit Chat Money is a CCM Media Group podcast. Ryan and Brett are not financial advisors. Anything discussed on Chit Chat Money by Ryan or Brett or any other podcast guest is not formal advice or a recommendation.

Now, please enjoy this episode. All right, guys, this is the Deep Dive on Thursday, and I'm here with Ryan Henderson, and you know him from Multibagger Madness. It is Stephen Gray. I saw that that finished up. How'd it go? It seemed like you got a lot of engagement there on that section. Yeah, a lot of people as the tournament went on, people got more and more excited.

Nice. We've already got – we crowned Fastly the champion this past week. So short Fastly for the next year? Exactly. I think that's what we should learn from this. But we've already got a bunch of people clamoring for the next tournament. I think we're going to have to give it a break for a week or two or maybe a few months before we do another tournament.

I'll pitch you. It was a lot of fun. Deep value madness. Deep value madness. Deep value madness. Get some new followers in there. Yeah, exactly. Got to diversify the follower base.

Yeah, yeah. It's like hard – it was like a little hard to follow if you're just looking at it on the twitter like your twitter timeline because it would like pop out out of order and then they'd have like the older posts i was like i can't follow this yeah you blame twitter on that one yeah all right well we're talking lemonade the insurance company um today so ryan uh you want to get into what they do and the history of the company so before i get into lemonade specifically i want to break down the insurance business as a whole because uh it's something a lot of people refer to but don't always understand so for any listeners that are

unfamiliar, this is sort of how it goes. Insurance companies collect money every month from their customers in the form of a premium. That's a lot like your subscription. You're basically paying for them to cover you in the event that something bad happens. Insurance companies, sorry, then if something bad happens to the customer, whether it's a house on fire or something like that and it needs repairs, insurance companies will cover that with the pooled premiums from all their different customers. And so the goal is to collect enough money that they can easily cover the claims and then also have enough to run the business and have enough float, which is all the pooled premiums together to invest. That's sort

of the Berkshire model. That's sort of who, I don't know, did he popularize it? He popularized the term float. Yeah. And so as long as the insurance companies have enough to cover the claims, they can really have a good return on that money somewhere else. Yeah. I mean, It's kind of diversifying the risk of the consumer and then allowing the, you know, the company to make a little money on the back end. And so Lemonade is attempting to bring that process into the digital age through artificial intelligence. They offer homeowners insurance, rental insurance, and pet health insurance, and they simplify the process through two different chatbots. There's Maya, which is their client intake bot. So she processes the information for potential customers, and she quotes them a price.

then they have jim the artificial intelligence used to process claims that's obviously a little harder than just taking data and giving someone a price um but obviously that lowers the cost on lemonade side because they don't have to employ people to do that yeah glad it's not named brett though yeah that is very true um lemonade is a very young company though so this is the history they were founded in april of 2015 by dan schreiber am i getting that right in and that's exactly right exactly right okay yeah that's like the first time i really uh got him right one for one but uh schreiber was the former president of power matt and shy was the co-founder of fiverr who we just did a recent show on i think that was our latest deep dive wow really

yeah and then when they started apparently they just knew they wanted to start something they weren't like inspired to do this originally they got together and then they were like what is a legacy industry that needs basically to become digitized and they came across insurance we're like that's definitely the one and they had their first funding round in 2015 i imagine it was and it was 13 million in a seed round led by sequoia capital i imagine it's pretty easy for them to get investors when they are just piggybacking off of fiverr and power mat i don't really know what power mat is but it sounds like they were pretty well established strong reputation yeah um some other notable investors that have tagged along include Google Ventures and Ashton Kutcher's

Sound Ventures. Ashton Kutcher, he may be a slight red flag. What do you think? He invested in WeWork, so. I don't know. You got to, when you can get a good name like that, you got to take the opportunity. Just get it. Yeah. As long as the business is sound, it can help you raise a little money. That might be free marketing too. Free marketing. Yeah. I mean, I guess it can't hurt. Yeah. As long as the business is good. Industry. All right. Yeah. I'm going to talk about the industry. One note, when I was searching to research the industry, I looked up renter's insurance industry on google and lemonade had the top ad uh so is that a good use of their capital maybe i think it's not bad yeah get that uh name out there so it's estimated 37 percent of renters

get insurance and then 50 of those who rent are under 30 so the target market for lemonade is to acquire the customers that are close to our age someone that is under 35 under 40 people that are actually renting and not owning homes yet that is how they enter and yes they do offer a homeowner's product, but that's kind of newer. They want to target people that are renting. Competitors are basically everyone, all state, nationwide, travelers, state farm, tons of different places. Typically renter's insurance will cost about $150 a year. And then homeowner's insurance, people will spend about $1,200 a year. So that's where all the money is made, is the homeowner's insurance, but it's going to be tougher for them to enter that market because

there's a lot of established players in there and the homeowners aren't really the younger demographic that's going to be you know for this ai bot um digitally native you know they're not going to be inclined to do that if you're like some 65 year old person who owns a home a representative maya yeah they're like who is that is that can i go to the office this year um and then the pet insurance market they're new into this but it's a lot smaller it's 1.71 billion dollars um so that's pretty sizable for a company lemonade but they're focused mainly on the u.s right now and i think that's gonna expand to europe slowly and for the pet insurance specifically um that's kind of a bolt-on thing you know all right that's a differentiator where you can choose lemonade

because they offer that in a bundle um and then just for some broad metrics insurance is now 11 of gdp in the united states and then all state so looking at one of their competitors has an operating margin of about 13.7%, just to give a little, you know, feel for what type of profit margins an insurance company will have at scale. All right, Ian, what about you? Yeah, so we'll dive into the management and ownership a little bit. You mentioned the co-founders, Ryan, and they are really interesting between Daniel Schreiber, who's the CEO, and Shai Winninger, who's the COO. They're kind of, they're a high-powered group that came, like you said, from, Schreiber came from Powermat Technologies, which is one of the leaders in

wireless charging technology and was actually founded by the current nanox ceo the medical imaging company um that's a controversial name it is a controversial name but it kind of goes to show a lot of these um he was he's israeli as well and just there's all these um there's this israeli tech kind of phenomenon going on that we're seeing both with fiverr last last week in our deep dive and now this week with lemonade um you know winninger obviously the co-founder and cto of fiverr so there's just there's a lot of interesting stuff going on over there um so they have some startup cred they kind of they've they've gone out and proven it um also relatively modest compensation for the founders about 360 000 per year so it's not you know it's still it's still

a good chunk of change but it's nothing crazy we kind of at least i like to see that that they're not taking home huge stock bonuses as well and yeah i think i mean they probably have a ton of equity so there's not i mean and now they'll probably get a lot more in stock options um as they've gone public now but based on their s1 yeah 330 000 or whatever it is 360 that's really not a lot for a top exec yeah you need some liquidity to live but yeah if someone was taking home 5 million here um it doesn't really make sense especially if they own like 10 of the company. Yeah, exactly. They are. And one of the other good notes is it's about 11% insider ownership. So they've still got a lot of a good chunk of the company. They're aligned with

shareholders. They're also doing a lot of stock based compensation for the rest of their management team who wasn't founders. So their CFO and some others. And so that's good to see. One interesting kind of note about the management team is they talk about, they really want to be transparent. And I think we're going to get more into that later on. But one of the ways that comes through is their guidance is actually really specific. They'll provide guidance for capital expenditures. They're providing guidance for multiple different margins. And so they're really trying to give people a good picture of the company. one last note i'll make on the management the management team is they've made lemonade into a certified b corp and for people who are unfamiliar a certified b corp is quote businesses that meet the highest standards of verified social and environmental performance public transparency and legal accountability to balance profit and purpose um so they kind of it's they

score well with this outside organization that can certify them as a b corp and one of the reasons They do a lot of charitable stuff, correct? Exactly. They do have some charitable components. And also this transparency is a big piece of that too. And so the CEO has said perhaps the costliest problem in insurance is distrust. And so part of this B Corp certification is trying to help with that distrust problem. Yeah. And piggybacking off that, if you think about the legacy providers of insurance, you basically are taking the premiums and then as much as you can outside of the claims, that's what you want to invest. Yeah. So you have a lot of reasons to dispute claims and say like, that doesn't really qualify or basically screw the customer because you need that investable money. Now, if that money is going to charity other than – because the way Lemonade works is they take a 25% fixed fee from that premium, and the rest either goes to the reinsurers or goes to a charity. So the only person you're screwing, either whether you have insurance fraud or as the insurer, the only people you're screwing is the charity, and you're not really helping yourself much.

No, it could help their brand for sure, get better light in consumer size. yeah so incentive wise it looks good from the outside yeah definitely no red flags there radian yeah agreed okay i'm gonna get to the valuation uh pretty simple because they're unprofitable and they just went public so ticker is lmnb if you want to look it up enterprise value 3.99 billion so basically 4 billion price of 66 dollars and 58 cents as of our recording on october 13th EV to sales is 40.5. Classic. We had a streak here of companies trading at above EV to sales of 30, although they are growing quickly, as Ryan will note next. So no dividend, as you probably expect as well. And we don't really see their history of stock-based compensation as a public

company. So that's something to look out for for the next few quarters here. EV to gross profit is 125. So they're not, I mean, they've scaled them quite quickly, but their gross profit is not going to be as high as a typical software company because they're still running an insurance business. It's just on software. And then their margin adjusted EV to sales, which is what we do internally. And it's EV divided by gross profit, or no, sorry, gross margin and sales growth. And that is 119.7. So very high, but it can compress if the sales growth continues and that gross margin can expand. Something else I'd like to see was their adjustments were not dramatic. like their adjusted EBITDA I think was 2 million off their net loss which or like less than one

percent almost shows frugality yeah so um but I'll dig into the earnings for 2019 they had 67.3 million in revenue that was up 199 percent year over year obviously growing really fast their adjusted gross margin is 17 percent I believe their gross mark their gross margin was higher than they're adjusted i'm not sure yeah just it's they do something specific for an insurance company where they make some adjustments but on the income statement gap wise it was like 32 percent but i think the adjusted one is what to look for because it's like different how an insurance company works with money coming in and money coming out yeah and then they had a net loss of 108 million so their net margin was negative 161 percent versus negative 235 percent in the prior

year. So it's trending in the right direction. It's obviously still not great, but they are scaling up and they're going to spend a lot there in their early days. The company was founded in 2015. So it's very young. And then as of quarter end, they had 729,000 customers up 96% year over year. Premium per customer at the end of the quarter was $183. That's low, it seems like. So that's cheap. And then as gross written premiums have increased from $9 million to $116 million over three years, gross loss ratios have declined from 161% to 72% in the most recent quarter. So yeah, a lot of positive financials to look at. Yeah. All right, Ian, wrap things up with the balance sheet here.

Yep. So as you'd expect with an insurance company, it's a fairly conservative balance sheet. they've got a cash balance of about 295 million dollars one interesting note on the balance sheet is they had a lot of preferred stock that was basically going to get converted into common stock upon the IPO but that makes it look like they have a negative book value currently on their latest financial statements when in reality if that does get converted to common stock they're going to be back into a positive book value which we like I said we would expect with an insurance company they have reserves of about 86 million dollars of cash that they just have to to my understanding they just have to hold in cash um for claims that are paid out um and then

so one way to kind of value some of these insurance companies sometimes is based on book value so just a quick note they have they're trading about 13 times book value making that preferred stock to common stock conversion whereas all state um is about 1.2 times so they are trading at a premium relative to other insurance companies but that's to be expected with um all the growth that Ryan was talking about. Yeah, you got to expect that runway for growth. I mean, if they're growing 200%, if they can keep up triple digit growth or even anywhere close to that for a few years, they'll get close to that number. you

all right welcome back from the ad break if you're watching on youtube as we should mention every show i guess uh there won't be an ad break there so it's just going to be a quick jump and now we're going to hit the second half of the show first up is competitive advantages uh who wants to go first this week i'll go okay right okay this one seems really intuitive and is why they are competitively advantaged and i put pricing because and the reason they're able to pass through cheaper prices to the customer is because they're the digital first nature of their business the ai and the look i mean the ai the data all that stuff allows you to lower overhead costs and charge customers less which then becomes a scale game right the whole bezos

your margin is my opportunity thing. So that's obviously the major competitive advantage. It's also a lot easier, in my opinion, to go directly at this than it is for a large incumbent to try to switch and fire hundreds of thousands of insurance employees. Feels like a classic innovator's dilemma. Yeah, yeah, definitely. What about you? All right. Yeah, I'll go next. They go after customers before they reach the typical target demographic for a traditional insurance company. So whatever age that is, whatever income bracket it is. So they're competing against no one for a lot of these people that are maybe our age, like 25, not much income. They're kind of landing and expanding. I know that's an overused term for SaaS companies, but

I think it's a big advantage for them. And they specifically mentioned this a few times in the S1. So that's how they want to go. And then upsell people as they, you know, hopefully are on the platform for a decade or more. Yeah. I mean, think about, we're all sort of younger renters, renters, right? The younger people tend to be the renters as they're accumulating more cash so they can put down a down payment on a house or something like that. If you can lock them in during that period, that's a good way to start. I agree. Yep. All right. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to touch on their AI platform and what they call their state-of-the-art infrastructure. They seem to have a huge headstart in modernizing writing policies and paying claims for

modern consumers in a quick, efficient, cost-efficient manner, especially compared to the legacy insurance providers. It's just a big advantage for them that they can just get someone signed up for a policy like that. You never have to talk to any sort of insurance agent. You're not shopping around. You can just get a good low price using their AI platform off your phone. And I think that's, you know, it's a big competitive advantage, especially to the legacy players, to some of the other younger kind of nimbler competitors who are trying to do the same types of things that lemonade is doing i think it's yet to be seen whether they really have an advantage over those companies and with this ai yeah i i get a little like scared with

the ai stuff writing insurance because i don't want to make some detrimental error that they don't even know they're doing um but it seems like they're taking the precautions okay future growth opportunities you want to go first yeah i can go first i think they have a huge runway to grow for the customer base this one's simple um they're not even at a million yet and there's you know, billions of people worldwide, and they want to go to, there's probably, I don't know, 2 billion people that meet their criteria so far. If, you know, if they can even write the same insurance products as Allstate, and then go with a cheaper brand, because they're using the AI chatbot, and they're using, they don't have any physical stores. I mean, that's a giant advantage,

and they're going to be able to grow with that. So very simple. But I think that, I mean, I think it's a strong growth opportunity for them. Ian, what about you? Yeah, I think kind of one of those specific places they can go is auto insurance. It seems to me like that should be a logical next step. People like bundling. It should be good for Lemonade to be able to just continue to pull more and more money from each customer that they already have, especially like you mentioned, these young customers who are maybe buying a car for the first time, that type of stuff. One kind of roadblock to that, I think it is a future growth opportunity, but auto insurance, I assume one of the reasons they haven't already done this is auto insurance to me

would seem like it's much harder to determine. It has a much more frequent claims than you do for your house insurance. And then there's also the whole issue of fault at play with, you know, if you're getting in a car accident and whether, you know, who's responsible and whose insurance pays for it. And so it seems to be a little bit more of a complex problem, but if they could solve it, I think that would be a big growth opportunity for them. Right. And that's, yeah, that's a very real concern because not only, it's not like it's up to some claims provider to, it's not his discretion, right? It's AI. So it's hard to determine fault and program that in to determine it. So it obviously becomes much tougher that way. Future growth opportunities for me, I would like them to partner with rental companies or like property management type companies. They did this with WeWork when WeWork rolled out their residential business or whatever it is. It's called like WeLive members. WeLive.

WeLive, right? The power by we. It would make a lot of sense for them to start with that. Or even as they start to expand out their offering, let's say they did auto insurance, health insurance, all that stuff, partnering with employers, because a lot of young people get their first insurance policies from their employers. And that's, you know, I'm sure the legacy providers have a bit of a moat or a bit of, I don't know, stranglehold on the employer's market, but it seems like a good place to start. Yeah. And I think even a growth opportunity is if these classic insurance companies just continue to spend billions a year on TV advertising, which is shown to be not effective for people younger than 35, if they just continue to do that, that's an advantage, I guess. And that's a growth opportunity. Patrick Mahomes and Aaron Rodgers throwing the ball really far. That seems like it could really attract some customers. Yeah. They're going to get some strong ROIC there. All right. Last segment is highlights and lowlights. We'll let Ian go first. What do you got? Yeah. So the highlight I want to point out is they've had kind of a unique and interesting way of aligning interest of lemonade and policy

holders. They think that that's one of the big issues in insurance is that the policy holders want to get as much money from the insurance company as they can. The insurance company wants to pay as little claims as it can which creates just this constant conflict the way that they've kind of set it up where they are donating the excess profits to to charities of the choice of the policyholders that creates this they're trying to make it where it's just this this good kind of loop where people don't want to try and steal more money from the greedy insurance company because it's just taking more money that could be going to non-profits so that it's kind of creating more honest claims and also that the insurance company can be happy paying those claims because they're

not trying to keep every cent they've capped their profits basically um which is just an interesting idea i'm always kind of intrigued by interesting ways to go about solving underlying issues in an industry yeah sometimes when like a company says we're going to donate stuff to charity a lot of times you know you roll your eyes because it's usually not material to the actual business but in this case i think it makes sense because it won you know it's a good thing and it increases their brand and then two it gets the customer off of their back from thinking that they're you know trying to be the evil insurance uh provider yeah yeah exactly what about you yeah did you get your low lights in or yeah let me let me touch on a couple real quick um one thing

that's you know you could consider a highlight or low light they consider it a highlight but i think they say that 90 of our customers said they were not switching from another carrier basically that this was their first insurance policy which is good in one sense but i see it a little bit as a low light that they're not really being able to attract people who have existing policies and maybe someday they will but to really grow this company they can't at least in my mind they can't just keep getting people our age for the rest of time like if they do that for the next 50 years it'll pay off but um you know i'd like to be able to see them penetrating that market a little bit more. And then there also just is some competition, I think, with more of these kind of as we were

talking about earlier, whether this AI platform is really a competitive advantage, whether some of these younger, nimbler insurance companies that are right on their heels and should be coming public soon, whether they have similar technology and whether Lemonade really is going to be able to hit escape velocity and grow fast enough to escape this younger competition. yeah i mean i wonder if it's almost like banks in terms of retention for some of the older people like once you latch on there's no yeah oh i'd say i say it's very similar i guess unless you have like a big dispute with your insurance provider yeah which is true so it's good that they're going after the younger target market but that might saturate rather quickly and then growth might

slow down um which you have to think about if you're going to invest especially at this valuation yeah um all right you want me to go sure go ahead okay highlights for me uh you know ian mentioned it sounds a little cheesy but their give back day sounds great and they're caring about all stakeholders sounds like they're legit on that um revenue growth you know is off the charts i think we don't want to overlook that they're growing revenue at 200 a year um that can't continue forever but i mean that's just fantastic and it seems like they started off at a competitive advantage like a true competitive advantage versus the entrenched players i mentioned the innovators dilemma earlier i think they have that they want those you know they're paying employees they don't

want to fire them um that's going to take a while to get all you know fire them if they were going to and they're just not going to take that risk to jump to this whole new business model right away which is going to give lemonade um at least against the other non-startups like all state state farm etc there's you know i think a dozen of them that's going to give them a huge advantage and then oh go ahead right yeah no i mean anytime a legacy provider is forced to cannibalize its own business that is a huge risk and i i believe um dan schreiber talked about this on business casual but those boards those executive teams are instilled to keep this sort of legacy of of the business and so taking a massive risk like that and cannibalizing your own business to

possibly have a successful pivot that's a huge jump that i don't think they'll ever make and that yeah i think lemonade has a big advantage there all right um low lights i mean and ensure growing this fast seems risky to me i don't know if it actually is but growing all these you know premiums coming in what if they're writing bad policy um and they it doesn't seem like they have much redundancy in the process, um, which does concern me a bit as well, because you want a little bit of redundancy in insurance just to make sure someone doesn't write a thousand policies or your AI bot doesn't write a thousand policies that are just terrible. Um, and then the renter's insurance also feels risky currently, um, because a lot of people are not paying the rent. So.

Yeah. Yeah. That is tough. Um, and I guess having the reinsurance provider takes away some of that risk of like the the downside about growing fast as an insurance guy as an insurance team yeah i was just gonna yeah i was just gonna add to that real quick um that's another i think cause for concern a little bit is that they do rely heavily on these reinsurance partners and so if those relationships ever deteriorated or if like you said brett if these turn out to be a lot of bad policies these reinsurance partners are not going to continue to reinsure all their bad policies and so um in the future if they if if there's a really bad year you know there's some you know of major losses they may have trouble sticking to this business

model in the future all right right all right ryan wrap us up yeah they had so highlight here they have a lot of cash on hand because they need to and they also got capital really easy it seemed like. Their seed round was 13 million from Sequoia as soon as they launched. And so I think the reason that they did that is because insurance is a scale play, right? So claims matter, like huge claims where you have to pay it out matter a lot more when you don't have enough premiums to let the averages sort of play out. Classic scale game. Yeah. So you need basically a critical mass of customers in order to make it a guarantee that you're going to be making money. And if they can reach that, that's great. But that is sort of a downside as well.

Big highlight here is that the data-driven insurance and the cheaper insurance is long overdue. This feels like one of those industries that's literally been ripe for disruption for like 20 years and just no one really wanted to go after it. But yeah, the other side, I guess you can look at the give back program as sort of a low light. It isn't. As an investor, maybe. It does take away some investable float. And you also get investable float taken away by reinsurance providers. But in those early days, the reinsurance providers are going to be super necessary because like i said claims matter more as a portion of your the premiums that are written because like imagine if you have one bad year early on where people make a ton of claims

you're kind of screwed yeah you want that reinsurance at least if you're trying to grow this quickly that is a good um crutch in case they get into trouble yeah all right we good to go last question yeah more or less interested on lemonade after this show what do you guys think uh, who wants to go first? More, more. I'm more, I'm a lot more interested in the valuation right now. I mean, hopefully, hopefully we'll compress quickly. Yeah. It's, it's really hard to, I mean, they're not profitable, but the gross loss ratio is coming down. Revenue is obviously accelerating a lot. There's low overhead costs with the business. They're marketing a ton. Um, I mean, is it really the only, is it that simple where you should just look at the customer count? I feel

like this business it seems like it's too simple but isn't customer count just what you need to look for yeah maybe and that loss ratio maybe loss customer count loss ratio and then if you throw in their the average amount of premium they're getting from people as they continue to add additional products and you know presumably as we get older and actually start buying bigger houses and things like that these premiums are going to increase too so that's going to be a major driver i think for this business yeah all right ian are you're i'm assuming more interested I actually have to say I'm just a tad bit less interested I went back and forth on this um I'm I'm interested in the space and in disrupting a legacy industry like this um

I'm not I wasn't blown away by lemonade though I'm a little bit worried about I don't know that they're going to be the big winner out of this I kind of wonder whether the legacy providers are going to pivot quickly that's probably unlikely or whether one of these other um kind of younger competitors is going to step up and like I said I think there's a couple of them slated to go public in the next couple of years and whether they're going to step up and grab a big piece of this market. Yeah. The market could end up being commoditized. And then this valuation might not work, but I I'm definitely more interested. I never looked at them before. Obviously the valuation is a concern as it has been from a lot of the companies we've talked

about, but it seems like a good business model with some competition that is literally a hundred years old. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. We all good. Yep. All right. That's going to do it for this episode as always follow us on twitter and give us show suggestions at chit chat money you can follow ian at ian gray live and you can email us show suggestions if you're not on twitter at chit chat money podcast at gmail.com remember we are not financial advisors anything we say on this show is not formal advice or recommendation thank you for listening to this episode we'll see you all next week Thank you.

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