Chit Chat Stocks - Maxx Chatsko | Fate Therapeutics (FATE)

Episode Date: December 9, 2020

On the 9th day of Christmas Maxx Chatsko gives to you, Fate Therapeutics the company Chit Chat Money knew nothing about. Fate Therapeudics is a biopharmaceutical company focused on cell mutation. Chit Chat Money had a lot of questions and Maxx Chatsko knew all the answers. Visit our website: https://www.chitchatmoney.com/ Subscribe to 7 Investing with the code "CCM": https://7investing.com/subscribe/ Follow Chit Chat Money on Twitter: https://twitter.com/chitchatmoney Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to 25 Stocks of Christmas presented by Chit Chat Money. Today we have an interview with Max Chatzko, our friend from 7investing, and we talked Fate Therapeutics, which is a company we knew nothing about. Yeah, switching up, doing a little biotech. Yeah, I was pretty interested and I was basically just a listener during this. I mean, we asked questions, but... Yeah, so you might think, oh, biotech, I don't want to listen. Well, if you ever want to get into biotech, you may want to listen to this. You might only absorb 40% of the information Max says, but that puts you on the right track if that's some part of the market you ever want to get interested in.

He doesn't say it in like, okay, this isn't like something an elementary school kid can understand, but if you have any sort of technical background, you'll be able to get half of what we talk about here. So I think it's worthwhile for sure. He also does a good job explaining how biotech business models work because sometimes you might not have to understand the actual technology behind it, but it's good to understand how the business models operate. But before we get to our interview, we have a word from our partners. It's your turn.

Yeah, and it is something that Max works at, 7investing, and he can get one of his stock picks every month recommendations where you can get, using our code CCM, you get $10 off your first month, no lock-in. So you just try the first month for $7. That is $7 for seven stock picks. So it's $1. You can check it out. It's a great way to get introduced. You help out our show as well. It's basically the Netflix of investing.

Yeah. I mean, I like that optimism for sure. But to be honest, it's a great deal. You can try it out. And we think it's a great service. So there you go. There you go. Welcome to Chit Chat Money.

On this show, hosts Ryan Henderson and Brett Schaefer interview industry experts and riff on the world of investment. As a quick reminder, Chit Chat Money is a CCM Media Group podcast. Ryan and Brett are not financial advisors. Anything discussed on Chit Chat Money by Ryan or Brett or any other podcast guest is not formal advice or a recommendation. Now, please enjoy this episode. today we're welcomed by max chats go uh lead advisor for seven investing max how are you

i'm pretty good man how are you guys we're both doing pretty well yeah well doing well yeah uh and we're talking today fate therapeutics which uh we'll just come right out and say it brett and i have little to no idea what they do uh so we are going to uh be informed if you will by max here so how'd you come across fate therapeutics how'd you find this company yeah well you guys aren't alone but uh fear not you know i think a lot of people see companies like this and they kind of just put it in the too hard bucket and walk away uh but you know if you get into it it's it's not too bad so So, Fate Therapeutics is in my little corner of the market, right, in biopharmaceuticals. It's developing cell therapies, but it's developing next-generation cell therapies.

So, drug candidates based on immune cells that they engineer, and they are used to attack cancer cells in your body. And it's next-generation because they overcome some of the pitfalls and limitations of first-generation cell therapies that were developed. um so first generation cell therapies were based on something called clark t so that's just a t-cell um a t-cell is a part of your immune system and um you know it worked pretty well i mean they used it for different types of blood cancers um so they would harvest it from a patient they would like draw blood right um they would separate out your t-cells in a lab they would engineer them uh to have certain uh capabilities then they would grow them back up in the lab. Then they'd bring them back to the hospital and administer them to the

patient again. So a patient was receiving their own T-cells, but they were genetically engineered to fight their cancer, right? So it worked out pretty well, but there's some limitations there. For starters, the manufacturing is pretty tough. It's a nightmare. It takes like two or three weeks. There's a lot of process steps. Each of those steps adds costs, adds sources for air, human air, for instance, so things can go wrong. And the FDA was pretty tough on some of these because it's tough to, when you're harvesting your therapy from each patient, it's hard to prove that you're doing the same thing each and every time, right? You don't have a homogenous product. It's not like you're making a big batch of Advil and then making pills and it's sitting

on the shelf at CVS, right? So a lot of process steps where things can go wrong. A lot of process steps means it's expensive. Just the manufacturing costs per each treatment for some of these

first generation CAR-Ts were, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars. So pretty complex there. And then there's also some practicality issues, which were CAR-T cells have some limitations with dosing.

So you can only actually dose them once, which you know isn't ideal sometimes you want to come back and treat a patient multiple times to get the best effect and they also had some safety issues t-cells can cause something called cytokine release syndrome or crs we've gotten a lot better at managing it in the last several years but you know can be fatal in some instances so it did lead to some patient deaths so what therapeutics has done is learn from some of these mistakes and pitfalls. And it's come up with different ways to tackle manufacturing. So it starts off with stem cells. A stem cell can differentiate, it can become multiple cell types. So what they do is they induce it to become a

specific type of immune cell, the one that they want. So they always start out, they have a much more reproducible and standardized process. Then they can grow these up in big batches. So rather than harvesting it from one patient, and then reinserting it back, they can just grow up their cells that they're using, they make it work broadly across a larger number of patients. So that greatly reduces the manufacturing costs. For some of the company's drug candidates, it's actually led to a 100 times reduction, 100x reduction in the cost of the manufacturing. That's because it's simpler, it's bigger batches. And at least it's something called off the shelf, right so rather than go in you know if you have cancer you have to get your cells harvested it

takes two or three weeks off the shelf means the treatment's already available for you so there's not a two or three week period where you're waiting for your cells to come back so that's a pretty big advantage as well it's also working at different types of cells so not just t-cells but also something called natural killer cells also something that all of us have as part of our immune system. Uh, but natural killer cells have some inherent advantages. They can be dosed multiple times, uh, where some T cells cannot, uh, they also act a little bit differently within the body. So, uh, they have different mechanisms of action when you're, you're fighting cancers. So, uh, they can also be used in combination with T cells. So there's all these different

shots on goal for fate therapeutics and the new approach that it's been taking. Um, so yeah that's uh the nutshell i guess the pre-therapeutics that's a good that's a good overview um so are they targeting specific types of cancers or is it just the broad you know stroke here because it sounds like that they're going at it at a more general way where they can then you know go is it like just for skin cancer or is it lung cancer or is it everything Right. So, with the first-generation T-cells, we're often limited to blood cancers, right? Right. So, lymphomas, leukemias, you couldn't target solid tumor cancers. So, there's two broad

types of cancers, right? So, like a lung cancer would be solid tumor, and then a blood cancer would be, you know, a lymphoma or leukemia. So, Bay Therapeutics is targeting both. It's Um, it's initial, uh, it's most advanced clinical assets, I should say, uh, are targeting blood cancers. Um, and that's actually one of the more interesting things about it is it's, it's got a 14 different, uh, drug candidates in its pipeline. So, you know, it's, the valuation's gone a little nuts this year, like most of the stock market, but, um, you know, for a small company, for an early stage company, 14 different

drug candidates is, that's a very high number. That's pretty impressive. So I think that's why it's kind of lead to this giant valuation now. Even though maybe investors are getting a little ahead of themselves, but you know, that's a, that's a lot of shots on goal, 14 different drug candidates. Eight of those are in clinical trials. Some of those are still preclinical assets. So they're still have a little bit more work before they can enter clinical trials, but But yeah, so the company's trying a lot of different things, blood cancers, solid tumor cancers, combination therapies. So it's taking some of its drug candidates

and using it with already approved products to see if it can enhance how effective those are or even combining some of its own drug candidates. Okay, and is it all coming from that same base of the stem cell, whatever, cultivation? I don't really know how to use the specific word instead of that. Is that where all of these are starting from? Most of the company's drug candidates are off the shelf autologous.

But some are actually still harvested in patients. I think that's only limited to one of the company's partnerships right now and collaborations. But yeah, most of its drug candidates are actually, you know, next generation off the shelf. And that should be, that's the big step up where if it doesn't take three weeks to get that, that's a huge advantage for someone that's trying to, you know, has cancer attacking their body. Correct.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, the faster you can get treatment, the better. And again, is a big risk here for a lot of these companies that are developing cell therapies or any genetic medicine, for instance, is the manufacturing, you know, so the first like gene therapies that were submitted to the FDA for approval, you know, these applications were tens of thousands of pages long, Um, but over half of the actual application wasn't data from the clinical trial.

It was data from manufacturing processes. You know, the FDA is really, um, going over these things with a fine tooth comb, so to speak. And, uh, it wants to make sure that companies are really nailing the manufacturing aspect of this because that affects, uh, you know, again, you're not manufacturing a simple chemical like Advil, right? Um, you're making something that's alive, a cell therapy. So these things change depending on how you store them.

They change depending on, you know, maybe from batch to batch if you're not really standardizing your process. So the FDA wants to make sure that the products are as homogenous as possible. So Faith Therapeutics, with its approach, should have fewer of those regulatory risks. You know, it's not immune to those, obviously, but it's addressing that huge risk that, you know, some of these first-generation companies still have to contend with. Okay. And then this might seem like a question that if you know this field,

it might seem like a dumb question, but what's the difference between this type of company and maybe someone like CRISPR? Are they two entirely different things or is it some overlap? Because I know you said something about gene therapy or gene editing. I may have misheard you, but what's the difference there? Yeah. So biologic drugs are based on, it's the cat it's a broad category right uh these are complex you know drug candidates so it's something like a monoclonal antibody so protein then you have cell therapies or another type of biologic drug so that's where the drug itself is a living cell so that's like what faith therapeutics does and then you have genetic medicine so things that are um you know editing and changing the

genes within the patient so those are not technically alive um you know but those would be like CRISPR gene editing there are other types of gene editing that aren't based on CRISPR there's gene therapy there's RNA interference different types of genetic medicines that are trying to alter the you know root causes of disease in the patient um so the difference between like fate therapeutics is and crisper therapeutics um you know um fate therapeutics as based on mostly just cell therapies um where crisper therapeutics is using gene editing as its primary tool it's a little complicated right so i think what most people have in their idea of like uh crisper is like we inject you and it changes your genes right because that's

kind of the understanding maybe yeah um but that's we're not really there yet so what crisper therapeutics does is actually apply its platform to cell therapy so technically it's also working on cell therapy so it's using crisper to do that um so like what crisper therapeutics does it takes cells out of a patient and edits them with crisper and then puts them back into the patient so it's again it's it's kind of confusing right it's um these first generation crisper companies are actually doing cell therapy right now but the hope is one day we won't have to do that we can just uh engineer your cells directly in your body without harvesting them okay so it's kind of the bridge to the eventual hope of where you can just edit things or inject something and

it totally changes your dna right and it would be different types of cells too right so we might use crispr on like muscle tissue cells right we want to engineer uh genes that are expressed in your muscles or in your liver whereas for cell therapy you're primarily focused on uh you know the cell therapy is based on immune cells so you're never going to use like muscle cells as your immune therapy or liver cells as your immune therapy right okay that makes sense ryan do you have anything else on yeah i have what might come across as a really dumb question but how do they make money like who are their customers yeah it's a great question so as a development stage drug company, it doesn't have recurring revenue. So drug developers, when you're earlier stage like

Faith Therapeutics, they can generate revenue from collaborations and partnerships. So for instance, it has a partnership with Johnson and Johnson, which is a pretty big deal. It's a multi-billion dollar collaboration. So for that deal, and this is typical of how these collaborations go, Faith Therapeutics received an upfront payment. So right off the bat, boom, it got a cash injection there from johnson and johnson and then it has the ability to earn milestone payments as these drug candidates that are part of the collaboration advance through clinical trials so maybe like completing a phase one clinical trial will get a payout maybe starting dosing in the phase two clinical trial will earn a payout and so on and the payouts increase as you know the difficulty and

and the depth of the clinical trials increases. And then there's other milestone payments for earning approval. And then there's royalties on sales if anything actually does earn approval, but that's pretty far away. So yes, no recurring revenue, pretty dependent on these partnerships that it has.

And also, it does have to dilute investors from time to time with stock offerings and other financial arrangements because it's burning more cash and spring again, obviously. Right, right. That's kind of the game you're playing over in the biotech space. But one important thing for biotech especially is management. Do you want to talk about, you know, maybe the CEO, founders and stuff, the executive team, maybe? Do you like the management team? Are they really important to the story here? Yeah, you know, with phytoreputics,

I mean, again, they've taken all these pain points that were common in first generation in cell therapies and they've done they've gone through them and addressed them in pretty methodical ways so i've always been pretty impressed there uh oftentimes as well when the company speaks uh when they present their data um you know they don't do it in a hypey way they're not saying they're changing the world or anything you know they're uh they're pretty um pretty reasonable about how they present themselves so um that's always a big plus in my mind because i think i see this a lot now with uh maybe they're taking advantage of the stock market other companies you know um they'll use terms like oh the genomic revolution or oh

synthetic biology and i think investors can get into trouble there if they don't understand what they're getting into and some companies play into that but um yeah faith therapeutics is uh is not doing that it's not hyping itself up okay what about just your thesis broadly why uh i mean to the layman why is this a good investment so you know um again it comes back to how they're tackling you know taking advantage of the promise of cell therapy um you know and they're addressing these pain points right so they have a better way to manufacture these drugs uh they have a better way to engineer them and then just the breadth of the pipeline um you know with 14 different assets right now in the pipeline you know for an early stage company that's impressive it's not a one or

two or three drug candidate pipeline where if one of those fails i mean then you really have to rethink your whole investment thesis right um but for faith therapeutics i mean one two three four failures might not necessarily be all that um you know might not really change your thesis or anything um you know if half of the pipeline failed or maybe some of these assets failed for specific reasons um like safety or efficacy um you know tied to like the manufacturing process that might be more worrisome, but it's a much better way to, you know, de-risk development when you have so many different opportunities. Okay. That makes sense. Any, or yes, I'm right. I was just going to say, what's it gonna, I mean, is there a point when you've said right now,

a lot of the way they generate money is through partnerships and stuff like that. Is there a point when they have sort of more of a recurring revenue model? Can, is there any point when they know how much money they're going to bring in on a consistent basis yeah so for drug developers right the early days always suck right because you're you're bleeding money you're pouring money into r&d and you get nothing back because you don't have any approved drug products so the first big inflection point is when you move out of development stage and you go to commercial stage to get there you need to have an approved product and then you need to you know ramp up your relationships with doctors and make sure it sells and that can take a couple years as well so

So, pay-to-repetitiveness is still pretty far away from that, you know, on the order of years. So, that could be, you know, this isn't like a SaaS company or a cloud company where it has recurring revenue and it's growing and you can look five years in the future and, you know, kind of squint real hard and makes the justification for the evaluation. Here, you know, analysts are just kind of saying they're applying, you know, evaluation models to each asset and then combining all those together. so it's a it's a lot different than a normal company that has you know kind of more sustainable operations but yeah it's going to be a while and it matters um you know what matters is getting approved products but uh right now it doesn't exist right and then how do they protect the i guess ip is not the word um well maybe it is intellectual property um like can someone just come in and copy them or do they have to go about a different way is it kind of like with the patent

protection type deal you know is that a concern at all for them no i don't think that's a concern so um you know a lot of companies are doing next generation cell therapy um that's just the better way to do it right it's kind of like saying a lot of tech companies are moving to the cloud um like they have to do it right you're not going to build out your own infrastructure um so the advantage that they do have ip right they have uh certain things tied to uh how they grow their cells for instance or just manufacturing processes they also have relationships in place, um, whether they're licensing specific tools, they're actually working with, uh, a specific gene editing company. So they use that platform to engineer their cell

therapies. Uh, you know, so that's an important relationship that has covering some of its, its approach to, you know, these CAR T or NK cells that it's working on. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's, it's got a pretty good IP portfolio and there's also in biopharma and some of these, you know, like I call it living technology. So this can cover, you know, healthcare or industrial biotech, or agricultural biotech. But trade secrets actually come into play too. A lot of times, what companies do can't be reverse engineered. So sometimes you don't actually want to patent these things, because nobody knows what you're doing anyway, right? And trade secret can expire as long as you keep that under wraps. So there's some advantages there as

well okay simple in a simple form it's like the coca-cola secret recipe but a little more complicated yeah just not with you know coke it's with uh stells or you know some what temperature do you uh you know expand yourself out or something nerdy like that right okay okay all right i think that's all the questions we have for the first half we are going to uh hit a quick break and then we'll try to poke some holes in max's thesis here cox panoramic wi-fi includes advanced security to help protect all your connected devices you'll get real-time alerts oh like this one so you don't have to worry about malware or when your kid downloads a song from a shady link and now all your computer can play is

red color red color where are you all blocked thanks to advanced security included with cox panoramic wi-fi advanced security must be enabled in the panoramic Wi-Fi app. Restrictions apply. Welcome back in. Next, we have Devil's Advocate. So I'll just go right out and say it. We had Max send us counterpoints to tell him because this is a company we don't know well enough to provide counterpoints to. But I'll go first. And this one, I'm going to pull up some numbers here. So in the last quarter, they did, or in the last nine months, they have around 15 million in revenue and 110 million in operating expenses. So if I'm looking at this as a normal investor, I would be worried or

concerned to say the least, especially with no expertise in biotech, not to mention the company is trading at a $5 billion valuation with little to no revenue. How do you justify that? yeah exactly so um again from what we talked about before you know valuing these companies is different when they're still in development stage so looking at revenues kind of useless there are some interesting metrics for you know looking at operating loss making sure it's uh at least managing cash burn uh effectively um so again the company has 14 different uh assets in the pipeline so that's an advantage because of the shots on goal but it's also very expensive right you have a lot of different clinical trials to manage a lot of different r&d um so that can

relate to a huge cash burn for the company's valuation i mean this is something i've struggled with you know i tend to be a little more reasonable i guess with how i value companies so um i own shares of faith therapeutics and i was i bought a relatively early on so this has helped me this year but like looking around at the company's valuation it has very early data and it's valued at 5.3 billion dollars um i mean i think that's a risk to investors if you want to get in now i mean i've been wrong so far this year with this company in terms of like oh this is overvalued um so there's no no reason it can't keep going up but i just think you know if you buy in now and some of this doesn't work out maybe you know like what's the upside from here for uh the early stage

data right it's going to take time uh to really have this play out so so i wouldn't be too worried about the the lack of revenue or the lack of recurring revenue because that's just uh you know that comes with the territory for a drug developer but certainly you want to keep an eye on uh is it managing its cash burn uh is it getting data to back up and you know at least justify having such a huge pipeline of assets um but yeah i mean at five billion dollars given the stage it's at development uh i think there might be limited upside from here um without maybe a little bit of a correction or some kind of uh or or really good news that comes out of any of these um you know programs in the next you know whatever 12 months the uh yeah because i saw the stock

price has has appreciated quite a bit i think it's two or three x this year alone so what what what determines price movement because i mean it's obviously not tied to fundamentals i'd imagine since it's like pre-revenue almost so what's determining uh the price appreciation is it like news on their drugs or no it's uh wall street looks at uh rainfall totals in topeka kansas and then they just kind of uh no yeah that's a good question right so again it's uh they take each pipeline asset and they kind of uh they assign a value to it and then they assign a probability of success and uh it's some weird calculus that goes on there but um uh so here i think it's a little easy to like get carried away right because i think analysts can just be like

oh it's got 14 different assets yeah it's gonna it's worth five billion dollars why not um so i would maybe be a little more cautious with that but um yeah a lot of it's kind of um it's not based on a whole lot of like tangible metrics right which is the hard part it's it's frustrating i think to investors and um you know i cover this space and a lot of the things on my watch list have definitely appreciated quite a bit uh in 2020 right a lot of biopharma companies are doing pretty well and it's tough for a drug uh development stage company because they some of these haven't really had any new updates or news and they're you know doubling or tripling and so definitely i would encourage people to be a little more cautious and you know i think biopharma is

right for a correction uh and you know at some point it seems a little frothy to me right okay i'll i'll hit my counterpoint uh this is they're targeting a very crowded space like you mentioned before there's a lot of people going after this um you know the competition may limit their ability to generate profits there might be a lot you know if there's a dozen different companies that have this type of thing i know you know curing cancers is a large market opportunity uh but you know that I limit their upside? Yeah, exactly. So this is something that I think people should think more about, right? We're valuing like say free therapeutics based on its pipeline or, oh, wow, look, it's targeting these three blood cancers. But if you zoom out, the market's

valuing each individual company on targeting a very small number of indications. So a lot of cell therapy companies, a lot of gene therapy companies, a lot of gene editing companies are going after like the same six diseases and there's like hundreds of these companies so they can't all be successful uh they can't all win so i would encourage people to you know think about this is great that we have so much innovation it's great that there are dozens or hundreds of these clinical trials and some of these uh diseases and types of cancers um but at the end of the day as well you know we're gonna have to see some really great results for the market to be carved out so we're in this funny position where you know this is amazing news for patients

but um you know even if faith therapeutics has really good data the bar might be so high from a competitor three that uh you know great results aren't enough um so definitely unlike in previous years or previous um um you know companies and indications like right now in biopharma some of these spaces are very crowded so um you know faith therapeutics might be the winner but or one of the winners i should say but it could also not be the winner and it might still have really good data so let me ask something that's not on our notes page here what does a best case scenario look like if like a fate therapeutics everything goes right what does where do they go from there what does the business look like then yeah so uh actually this weekend i don't

know when we'll be publishing this but uh december 5th to december 8th is one of the biggest uh events of the year for the space it's called the american society of hematology or ash the ash conference so fate therapeutics again it's working in uh a lot of different blood cancers hematology is a study of blood maybe i should have started there so um fate therapeutics has i think it's 12 different presentations at ash this year so again that's a lot of it's a lot of presentations for us early stage company. So this conference, you know, based on the data and the updates that they provide from some of their clinical trials, the stock could go higher, it could go lower if it's disappointing, or if a competitor has even better data. So I think within a couple of weeks,

we might see some of these companies in this space be pretty volatile, one way or the other. And so what a best case scenario for fate would be, though, is that, you know, as the pipeline matures and some of these assets are further along in development, we just see better data moves into, you know, phase two, phase three trials and continues to reproduce results from smaller trials and a smaller number of patients. And then, you know, can get some drugs approved in any one of these indications. So, again, it has a lot of shots on goal. the uh it's kind of de-risked the pipeline uh and the development for investors right um

a lot of early stage companies might have two drugs or three drugs in development or one yikes don't go there uh if that fails then you're kind of screwed right so um again a couple of these can fail and it might not matter uh but yeah we want this company to get drugs onto the market and then to uh you know have quick success with growing the sales of these drugs because then it can get recurring revenue and at the very least it can offset some of its operating expenses. Even if it's not profitable, it would at least, you know, have a revenue is non-dilutive capital raising. Right. So every little bit helps.

Okay. Then on the flip side, how, what would have to happen for you to be like, I am not going to go anywhere near fate therapeutics. So what would have to happen for you to want to sell the stock? yeah so uh i bought in you know last year so i've been doing okay so i might hang on to my shares even if uh it starts to tumble a little bit or whatnot um you know for investors that are looking at this and maybe it's on their watch list again that valuation to me looks a little too uh too good to be true maybe too much good news is pricing um so the risk is it can come

down in price, or even it just goes nowhere, right? It goes sideways for a little bit because investors want to wait for that to kind of earn that valuation that's been given. But yeah, if a couple of these clinical trials don't work out that well, or maybe there's some safety profile that we haven't seen in earlier studies that shows up in some of these mid-stage studies, that could be a concern. Because I would say that maybe their thesis of, hey, the way we manufacture these is different and it will uh reduce these risks or hey we can use natural killer cells multiple times and it's not going to trigger any of these safety effects now maybe it does right we don't know um natural killer cells are still relatively new a lot of companies have

failed at trying to develop natural killer cells in the past and uh you know nk cells are a big part of faith therapeutics pipeline so uh there's some risk of uncertainty there okay that makes sense uh go ahead i was gonna say would you ever consider like uh no it just seems like something that could drop 50 on like a news story would you ever consider some sort of hedge um you mean like could this i'm sorry i don't understand the question sort of to supplement like you owning shares like to uh i don't know obviously this gets into the weeds of uh how how you invest and maybe you're just buying stocks but like maybe buying a put option am i thinking about this right it just feels like it could be really volatile around news oh i see yeah yeah so um

i don't personally use options or anything like that okay um and you know for most people this shouldn't be a big part of your portfolio either um so but yeah i mean i think you just have to expect volatility and again especially now and this isn't just for fee i think for a lot of these biopharma companies a lot of them doubled triple they're more this year and maybe don't really deserve that so uh and look it could go up for another four years who knows right the market is uh doing different things um but yeah i think you just have to expect volatility as far as ahead i mean just i think that's how you construct your portfolio you know maybe you off way offset that with a lower risk company or uh some portion of your portfolio is just more traditional

companies right with recurring revenue something like that yeah i think if you're going into biotech you gotta be ready for volatility or um that might not be the right game to play but think specifically on fate uh last question before we wrap things up say you're you know made ceo of the day what is one thing you would change uh for them to do yeah one thing that i would like to see them do is uh you know the way that they communicate their updates because they have so many such a big pipeline it's very very active there's a lot of moving parts and sometimes they just kind of cram all their updates into like a few different press releases it can be very difficult to keep track of all the different assets and studies going on the results especially

over time and it keeps getting bigger so there's a huge area for improvement in terms of like science communication or communicating these results a little bit more clearly to investors um so i would probably start there just uh distilling down the information so that we're not you know overcome with data all the time yeah i mean but hey and that can help a little bit you know everyone stays away then there's only a few people you know turning over those rocks right like this is uh you know yeah sometimes i'll look at like an ugly investor relations page i'll be like i can't do it so maybe that leads to inefficient pricing or something um i think that's all the questions we have right uh yeah that's all for me okay um thank you max for

joining us thank you listeners for joining us we want to remind you we are not financial advisors anything we say or discuss here on chit chat money is not formal advice or recommendation where can we find yeah so you're you're with seven investing we all know um everyone everyone that listens knows that you know we're uh partners with them but where can they find you and some of your stuff yeah well hey guys thanks for having me as well um you know i think this is the first time i've been on here that's as an individual not as part of the seven investing team it's good to get rid of those guys every once in a while you know they're apparently um but yeah you guys can see me at uh you know i'm on twitter set at seven max chats go on twitter and i have two x's

of my name because my parents couldn't spell um and if you just go to uh you know the seven investing twitter or uh seven investing.com i'll be on there perfect perfect okay see you guys next time.