Chit Chat Stocks - Steve Symington | Retail Opportunity Investments Corp (ROIC)

Episode Date: December 14, 2020

On the 14th day of Christmas Steve Symington gives to you, ROIC the retail opportunity investment corporation. ROIC focuses on acquiring assets in densely populated, middle to upper class locations. Steve explains how ROIC is an absolutely solid investment and he shares how he think the company will do in the future. Visit our website: https://www.chitchatmoney.com/ Subscribe to 7 Investing with the code "CCM": https://7investing.com/subscribe/ Follow Chit Chat Money on Twitter: https://twitter.com/chitchatmoney Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to 25 Stocks of Christmas presented by Chit Chat Money. Today we have an interview with Steve Symington and we're talking ROIC, Retail Opportunity Investment Corp. Yes, we did make some jokes about a certain financial metric that it overlaps with the ticker. So if you're looking for that, that's great, but it's an awesome company. It's a little different. It's very unique. Not something we typically go over. yeah it's different than a lot of the ones that they typically go over at seven investing but um you know we like any sort of stock that people want to pitch and that thing's going to do outperform or do well for an income investor and there's their portfolio this is probably for someone that's not looking for a giant you know 10 bagger they're not trying to take a little bit of risk but it seems very reliable it's going to throw off a lot of dividends and i always have a

lot more fun when we analyze that not that there's anything wrong with the sas businesses but whenever we do something kind of unique like this, where it's basically a REIT, I think it is a REIT. It is, yes. It's just, I feel like I'm learning so much because it's new to me. Yeah, different business models, fun to go over. All right. And before we get to that, we have to talk about our partnership, which Steve is a part of. It's my turn for the sales pitch. So it's $10 off, right? That's right. $10 off your seven investing first month. And it's typically $17. So you do the math, but that's $7 for the first month. It's really good. And Steve had his pick, which was probably my favorite pick of the recent seven. I'm not going to say who go, uh, use our coupon code CCM

and you can figure it out for yourself. But, uh, yeah. Any, anything I'm missing here on the sales pitch? Nope. Everyone knows sign up. Yep. Here's your interview. Welcome to chit chat money on On this show, hosts Ryan Henderson and Brett Schaefer interview industry experts and riff on the world of investment. As a quick reminder, Chit Chat Money is a CCM Media Group podcast. Ryan and Brett are not financial advisors. Anything discussed on Chit Chat Money by Ryan or Brett or any other podcast guest is not formal advice or a recommendation.

Now, please enjoy this episode. today we are welcomed by steve simington uh lead advisor for seven investing our friend now recurring guest i think this is what maybe third time on if we count the group you know the group effort with seven investing yeah yeah yeah that'd be third time so all right how have you been good it's uh markets keeping us on our toes we have we have plenty to uh to to react to So it's been a good stock picker's market, I think. Definitely. And today we are talking Retail Opportunity Investment Corp.

Am I getting that right? That's correct, yeah. Okay. And I've got the ticker here. I've abbreviated it everywhere in my show notes, and it says ROIC. So if we say ROIC, don't get it mixed up for return on invested capital. But how did you come across ROIC? Oh, yeah.

So retail opportunity investments, I started following them. I looked back literally 10 years ago. 2010 was when I first really started keeping track, paying attention. And actually, if you do a little internet sleuthing, you'll probably find some old videos of me talking about retail opportunity investments, including the first time I bought them in my own personal portfolio back in 2013. and uh and uh yeah so they're uh they're a real estate investment trust so uh a REIT another one of those weird acronyms you see REITs uh if you verbalize it uh real estate investment trusts are

required by law to pay out at least 90 percent of their taxable income to shareholders in the form of dividends so you usually find you know REITs are long-term plays for income investors where dividends are key. So that's no different here. It's a it's a very specialized real estate investment trust. But yeah, started following it about 10 years ago, bought it about seven years ago myself. So. All right. And now we know that it's a REIT. But what does ROIC specialize in? So retail opportunity investments focuses on buying and revitalizing grocery anchored shopping centers in mid to high income markets in the western united states so um basically you know they will keep their eyes peeled for grocery anchored and necessity-based shopping centers

in the western u.s and they're usually affluent neighborhoods um basically uh that that grocery anchored part means you know there might be an albertsons you know or a pharmacy maybe nearby or a sprouts market or something uh that helps drive traffic to not only the grocery part of the shopping center, but also through all of the other portions and, uh, really bolster sales for other tenants, uh, bolsters demand for its properties. Um, but they're very geographically focused on the Western U S uh, in those affluent markets. So, uh, that's what, that's what they do. Okay. And then who are their customers? Does like a grocer come to them and they do like a partnership and a deal? Are they, you know, putting up all the capital and then getting

some of the or are there are people just leasing these properties from so yeah they're they're renting they're leasing uh the properties for them so uh there's actually a really nice uh presentation from october they put up along with their third quarter results that kind of gives a good breakdown uh i think they've got 88 total shopping centers i think it's like 10.1 million square feet of retail uh square footage uh most of i think over like 20 of that is grocery tenants there's drugstores are like four percent restaurants are like 18 percent no they're over 20 I think but a good mix of like fast casual fast food full service restaurants and a smattering of other retailers but what's really interesting about this company in particular

is that 78 percent of their square footage leading into the pandemic was occupied by what were now considered essential businesses so it didn't fare as badly during the pandemic as many investors had feared. And I think part of that is due to the deal making of management. So I guess one of the people at the top that you look at, their lead, their CEO is Stuart Tans. He's best known for shepherding Pan Pacific Retail from $146 million IPO back in 1997, all the way to its $4.1 billion acquisition by Kimco Realty in 2006. So in this case, there's a certain trust in the deal-making and property acquisition prowess of company leadership. So that's a really big thing is trusting that Stuart Tans knows what he's doing

and can make deals when they look good. So what was, you know, it was a steady winner leading up to the pandemic and it really had like a nice juicy dividend, but it temporarily suspended that payout earlier this year for understandable reasons. given uncertainty surrounding the pandemic, took out $130 million loan from an outstanding line of credit as a precautionary measure. It's since paid that back. Shares soared, I think it was like almost 40% in a single day after the Q3 results, because they said we're, you know, it basically told the story of like a steady recovery. They said, we're going to start paying our dividend again in the first quarter of 2021. Remains to be seen exactly where, you know, they bring that

dividend back to. But before they left, I think it was a 20 cent per share quarterly dividend. So right now that would yield almost 6% on today's share price, which is pretty healthy. So we can get more into the Q3 results if we want to, but basically a story of kind of steady recovery here from a specialized retail trust. Okay. And then, so how does someone like a REIT grow? Do they take that 10% they don't pay out and then invest in new locations and then get more leases on that? Is that how they've been growing in the past? You know, it depends on how they, you know, they've got pretty healthy lines of credit that they can kind of utilize for acquisitions.

A lot of it's acquisitive growth for expanding into new shopping centers. And that's kind of where the management's deal-making prowess comes into play. So, I mean, they've got 88 shopping centers. I think it was something like 35 or 40 back when I first bought shares seven years ago. I could be wrong there, but a lot of it's acquisitive growth. And that's something, you know, I was going to talk about this kind of later in the call, but now that we're there, that's something that I think I'm really watching closely is the acquisitions front. Now, for, I think, you know, a couple quarters before the pandemic hit, management had kind of taken a really cautious stance on acquisitions. They haven't bought anything for a long time.

um and that's one of the reasons shares kind of pulled back a little bit in the several quarters leading up to the pandemic because they said you know what we don't like this market we're not buying new properties and uh and they obviously took kind of an even more extreme prudent stance uh when the pandemic hit everything kind of ground to a halt but they did update investors during last quarter's call uh stewart tans actually copied a quote in here he says as it relates to the acquisition market after eight months of essentially no activity on the west coast we're starting to see some property owners touched in the marketplace so pricing parameters and expectations are largely the same as before the pandemic especially for prime grocery anchored

shopping centers needless to say we're keeping a close watch on the market with an eye toward being in a position to start uh again in 2021 depending on how things unfold so um they're they're basically keeping a close eye and they're not willing to just you know grow for the sake of growth. If it's not a good deal, they're not going to do it. And they're fine basically fostering their existing business. And that's one of those things that's actually been really impressive so far. As you look, I think even right now, it's like a 96.8% portfolio lease rate. So you have 96.8% of their properties are actually leased. Rent collections were a little different. Last quarter, I think their build rent, 88.7% of build rent had been collected. But that was a pretty

substantial increase from like just about 82% in the second quarter. 94.8% of their leased tenants actually have stores that are open right now. And that's, you know, saying something again during the pandemic. And the other interesting thing is they're increasing rents by double digits for those healthy leased locations. Anyway, I think their same space comparative based rents increased like 12.2% year over year last quarter. Um, so to be able to continue steadily increasing rent, even during a pandemic, uh, says a lot about who is leasing these locations and the health of their overall portfolio. So. Okay. That's a, that's a great overview, Randy. Yeah. I mean, I guess, is there any other big, you already sort of mentioned this,

but are there any other big chunks to your thesis? Um, and then the other part is like, why now? You know, you'd think like this is sort of a trying time or struggling time for shopping or retail businesses. So, what piqued your interest about it now? I, you know, I held on to my position kind of through all of this, knowing that it was going to be ugly for a while. But I'm really impressed with how they've kind of handled everything during the pandemic. And shares got smashed. You know, you can look at their chart. It is ugly. But there's a reason after their third quarter report shares were up 38% in a day, because everyone said, Oh, they're going to be fine. But it still hasn't fully recovered. I think shares right now

are just barely the actual share price is just barely above where I bought in 2013, which is beautiful, because we're talking about a much bigger business that has healthier funds from operations. Now, that's one of those metrics you look at with real estate investment trust funds from operations essentially gives you a good measure of their operating cashflow. So, uh, in this case, 31.6 million funds from operations last quarter, that was down about 5% year over year. Not bad given the circumstances. So, um, pretty decent, uh, cashflow here and a company that's kind of, uh, watching for strategic acquisitions. I'd be very curious to see what happens to shares once they start buying properties again. Uh, because I think that's

going to be one of those sort of incremental votes of confidence from investors where people will celebrate it and be like, all right, we're back into growth mode. And so I think, you know, we're talking about a company that, you know, you look back over its decade, its 10 year return, and basically it's returned about a little, it's a little more than a double after you account for dividends, right? But it's only up like 30% when you actually look at the share price itself. So i think once things kind of return to normal ish then uh and then i think we'll be looking at a much healthier company uh which with much stronger cash flows uh much stronger funds from operations uh growth anyway okay what is the what does the balance sheet look like do they uh use a lot of

debt to make these acquisitions or is it mostly from their own all the properties uh they'll they'll use a lot of debt and then pay those down. Um, uh, I need to actually look when you search for it. Yeah. Maybe one quick question. Are they allowed to do share buybacks as a REIT? Um, is that something they could do to return capital to shareholders or does it all have to be done through dividends? I mean, you could, uh, but it's, it's really not something that you see all that often. Uh, it's, you know,

when you're returning, it's 90% of your taxable income is the, is the, that, you know, that they have to return in the form of dividends. So a lot of dividend growth, but I also think at this stage, we're looking at a lot of potential for a share price appreciation as well. They could kind of further stoke returns. But again, this is one of those long-term things, as long as you're willing to hang on and you know, maybe reinvest your dividends and just continue growing your stake uh, compounding over the longterm is where this one gets really interesting. So. Okay. And have we, I guess, back to the balance sheet, um, judging by the interest rates over the last few years, have they increased how much they,

I mean, are they making a lot more acquisitions fueled by debt? Um, yeah, it's, they, they basically take the capital whenever it's attractive. So, you know, it becomes a capital allocation decision. Uh, is it worth it to raise debt or use cash on hand in this case, and almost always in this market, these markets, it's worth it to draw on lines of credit that have really, really nice interest rates. So if they are using debt to fund, you know, say they go out and buy a $30 million grocery anchored shopping center, you know, if that's entirely using something they've drawn from their line of credit, i'm not particularly concerned about that so i mean yeah it seems like a good sort of growth

driver for them i mean if i was a shareholder i'd be somewhat encouraging them to do that given where interest rates are at yeah and uh you know i'm looking uh you know as of september 30th i just pulled up their q3 results and end of september they were looking at total real estate assets um of 3.1 billion 1.4 billion of principal debt outstanding net of cash uh so i mean that's what you see and that makes sense for them you know so the it's all about you know kind of increasing cash flow and uh and and over time um you know managing that debt and uh that's that's one of those other things that uh that i've watched the company over the past decade or so use the funds that had available. You know, and you look at its debt ratings, you know,

they're all investment grade, you know, consistently rated one of the top retail real estate investment trusts on the market. And it's just a nice high quality business that's focused in a very good way. Especially when it comes to, you know, sort of this non-conventional approach to investing in retail, where you don't have to focus on a particular the business because one of the other things you find is if you know if a tenant uh can't afford the space or doesn't want this you know prime real estate space there's always somebody else willing to move in and they can be somewhat selective because there's very high demand for their spaces and that's part of the reason they're able to uh fairly consistently grow

rents on a double digit basis so okay i think that's all the questions i have for the first half you yeah i think that's a good overview okay uh we're gonna hit a quick break here and then we'll try to poke some holes in your thesis cox panoramic wi-fi includes advanced security to help protect all your connected devices you'll get real-time alerts oh like this one so you don't have to worry about malware or when your kid downloads a song from a shady link and now all your computer can play is red color red color where are you all blocked thanks to advanced security included with cox panoramic wi-fi advanced security must be enabled in the panoramic wi-fi app restrictions apply welcome back in next up we have devil's advocate you guys know how this

goes we've got a few counterpoints and we're going to try to let steve refute them i'll go first and this is sort of this is probably what most investors think when they look at it at first glance which is retail space due to all the direct consumer initiatives the online shopping all that stuff the retail space as a whole is in a decline would even if they are you've said they've managed to be able to do just fine during covid if they overcome covid it they still aren't in a great industry it's not like you know we just got off our interview with simon erickson where we were talking about cloud computing it's like these are two you know it's two different tailwinds obviously two very different industries but it's like investors can choose from anything they want

why would they uh choose something where it's an industry that could potentially be dying sure uh i think there will always be room um you know even when you look at uh e-commerce you know market share as a percentage of overall retail sales. I think what was it? COVID might have boosted e-commerce market share to 16 or 18% of total retail sales. So yes, it's small as far as the e-commerce goes and a lot of room to grow there. But I think the global market, well, and let's focus on the regional market in this case, but the market for physical space will always be in demand, um, for the foreseeable future. And I think that's something that's sort of really overstated. Um, you know, people say, uh, physical retails, you know, I don't,

I don't think 10 years from now, we're going to have no stores and be buying everything, you know, online and having it all delivered. Uh, it'll be more, uh, but again, a, uh, a well focused company, um, that employs 78% of its tenants that are considered, uh, essential retailers or essential businesses like retail opportunity investments, I think has room to survive even as other retail segments don't. And I think definitely, you know, brick and mortar retail in general is facing some significant challenges, but I do think that there will be a market for the foreseeable future. And that's part of the beauty of it. You know, they're not stuck to a particular retail concept. You know, there can be some, there can be some ebbs and

flows when it comes to who is renting their spaces. And if you even see, you know, that there's high demand for their spaces, you know, in the middle of a pandemic, that's a, that's saying something. I think this is something that can be healthy and survive and thrive for a long time. Yeah. And if you look at the e-commerce penetration, I think it's around 30% right now and if that's in the middle of a pandemic you got to think well if 70 percent of retail is still in person in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic I mean I think it's safe to say that it's not going to go all e-commerce eventually maybe it gets to 50 percent at some point in the next few decades but it's not going to be 100 percent. I also think it's an advantage that they are

most of their properties are anchored to a grocery store because those are less likely in my opinion to succeed in the e-commerce space just because of the complications of delivering food with fresh food yeah right and that's not to say that there you know can't be some disruption there but yeah i think it's it's 96 of their uh properties are anchored by some sort of physical uh grocery store uh or pharmacy or something where people kind of still need to to be or still want to be um and that's that's gonna serve to kind of prop them up uh as other retail concepts struggle so yeah definitely all right i'll hit my counterpoint uh so on there i was reading through their queue whatever the last quarter report is and it says that 95 of their locations

are open um that means five percent are closed though if this continues you know maybe default risk over the next few years could rise a bit um this could turn hurt roic's ability to generate some cash uh are you thinking about that at all does that concern you uh with roic not particularly uh i i see um you know we're talking about 95 percent of their um the stores for their tenants are open you know so i think they are rightly using that as a point of strength uh if they can say that you know in the third quarter kind of when everything's crazy and you know that that's that is a risk i guess in the near term especially as we see like cases surge and uh and new kind of lockdowns potentially or new restrictions on what people can do um so that is a near-term risk i

think, is that we actually see that the number of tenants stores go down a little bit as a percentage of the total and the very near term. So that wouldn't surprise me. If we saw maybe in the next quarter, they say, okay, now we're now we're back to about 90% of our stores are open, because some of them, you know, closed. But again, you know, we're talking about almost 80% of the total is deemed an essential retailer. So there is a floor there. But I think it only gets better, uh, as we move forward. And, you know, considering we're talking about, I think, what did I say? 98, 96.8%, um, portfolio lease rate, you know, so they're leasing those locations and, uh, you know, obviously it's in their interest. It's the, the underlying retailers

who are leasing, um, their physical space thrive. Uh, it's, it's a good thing for retail opportunity investments, but I think, I think, yeah, more pertinent, uh, as a risk goes is, is whether that number goes down in the next couple of quarters as we kind of try and get a handle on the pandemic. And you said most of their stores are on the West coast, right? Yeah. So yeah, it's, it's geographically focused, uh, you know, a lot in California, Washington, Oregon, um, kind of over that direction. But, uh, yeah, so, uh, it is, it's also interesting because, um, you know, a lot of those States have been a little more restrictive in what they're allowing retailers to do and i think it also said you know that says something about the kind you know the

the portfolio of customers that they have a couple thousand people who are leasing a couple thousand businesses are leasing uh through them that that there's that many open right now so and then with them only focused on a certain region right now do you see that as an opportunity for them to grow even just across the u.s because it seems like they're focused on just a few states and this is a concept that could go in all 50 yeah i mean it could uh they could just as easily whether management decides it's worth uh maybe taking another one public or something you know maybe we'll have like some some weird like reet spec you know with another confusing ticker that makes people think of investing metrics but uh you know there's a possibility uh but i think he's got

his hands full uh with the markets as they are and they're perfectly content and i think um it also has to do which you know with which reason regions they know well and uh yeah so yeah there is opportunity there but you could translate the concept pretty easily somewhere and that would be an interesting incremental growth opportunity they could expand that way but i think there's there's plenty of opportunity over the next several years for them to to not have to even think about doing that okay and are they tied to malls at all i know people may be like all right well you already said that but uh i think what 78 are essential businesses i know people that are attached to malls kind of been struggling in certain areas does that yeah um not really it's

like when you when you look at the like the images of their shopping centers it's sort of like you pull in and there's a grocery store and you walk outside you go to the next store you walk outside you go to the next store so i mean their biggest tenants uh if you look i think their top 10 is albertsons and safeway uh kroger jp morgan uh so some banks uh right aid save mart supermarkets which we don't have here, but, uh, Marshall's TJ Maxx, Trader Joe's, Sprouts, Ross, uh, and other little grocery outlets. So that's, that's kind of how, um, yeah, that it's a, it's a pretty big group and mostly necessity based. So you can kind of think of, uh, the kinds of, of shopping centers they own, uh, in that sense, you know, I can think of several here in town, uh, that, you know,

have an Albertsons and the next door to it, there's an ACE and then there's a bookstore down the you know the way there's a little pancake place on the one people from missoula will know what i'm talking about there but uh yeah so um those are the kinds of shopping centers they have so not not a mall based thing and not not like an outlet center thing like you might have tanger factory outlets uh that is another kind of popular uh retail play that way that's that's got hurt pretty bad but um yeah well what would have to happen for you to sell this for me to sell this. That might be saying a lot because I held on through the pandemic, you know, and that's the other thing is, you know, I'm not, that kind of shows you my risk tolerance. So I'm not really

concerned about that kind of volatility. Like I kind of looked at that position, like, yeah, oh, well, you know, and I look at it and I re-examine it and I say, oh, that'd be fine over the longterm. And I held and, and you know, in retrospect, it would have been a great idea had to buy some more shares before it popped 40% before its Q3 report. But I think I would be really concerned if Stuart Tans left for some reason, that would shock me and really make me consider getting just cut and bait at that point, because that would make me think like, okay, what's he doing? So he's a dealmaker with a history of prudence and consistent outperformance, And I'd really consider selling if he left.

I would also be concerned if portfolio lease rates fell significantly. They haven't for a really long time. You know, even to know that even during the pandemic, their portfolio lease rates, you know, I think they've only fallen over the last year, like 90 basis points. So still sticking around nearly 97%. So it's a testament to the demand for their properties and the strength of their strategic portfolio building. So I'd be really concerned.

uh one if we saw a steady significant decline in portfolio lease rates um but the more kind of shocking wow i might sell my shares would be tans leaving so okay oh god uh is there anything i think i know your answer is there anything tied to the pandemic that could cause you to sell so like if vaccine let's say was a pump fake and it wasn't coming out for another two years and we we felt like lockdowns were going to go on for a lot longer or have they sort of proven to shareholders that they can thrive in this environment too um if i guess there's a big caveat that you know potentially we haven't seen the worst of it you know so there's all these people talking about this horrible winter we're about to hit and uh you know they're starting to

roll out vaccines and we have record numbers of cases and stuff uh that they haven't gone you know, and retraced and said, you know what, we're not going to pay our dividend. We're unsure again. But it would, it would really hurt shares if they came out and said, you know what, we're not going to pay our dividend in the first quarter. Even though we said we would a month and a half ago, that would, you know, use these shares plummet if that happened, because it would be a sort of an anti vote of confidence. So that, that, that would, that would hurt. But I don't think it's going to happen at this point. I think if they were, they were, that they were comfortable enough to say,

we're going to reinitiate our payout in the first quarter. And, you know, that they're comfortable enough says a lot. So I don't think they would have done that aggressively either. Like, I think that was probably a conservative choice. No. Yeah. And that's sort of the way they function is, is it's this history of very cautious, prudent moves. And, and part of the reason I was willing to hang on to this company is because I trusted management to that end. You know, I've, I've listened to their conference

calls for 10 years and owned the company for seven and, you know, covered them at my previous employer for the majority of the time I was there. And, uh, and it's just one of those things where you kind of, you, you get to know the way they speak and to gauge their, um, to, to gauge their sentiment. And they don't, there's, there's no real head fakes with them. They don't mislead people. They, they tell it like it is. And that was, you know, a lot of, we saw a lot of that when they were talking about the current environment for acquisitions and, you know, that, that they're actually sort of like, well, you know, we're still, you know, it's disappointing for an investor to hang on, especially if you're a short-term investor to watch them not buy

additional properties. But by the same token, you have to say, you know what, I'd rather they not buy anything than make a bunch of bad deals and overpay for everything. And that's just not their MO. So it's, it's, it's nice to, to kind of just be able to trust and kick back and, and just keep collecting the dividend. You know, even though there was a short hiatus in that, in that dividend payout but not going to miss a a single quarter so okay and is there any change you would like ROIC to make um say you could do anything what what would it be um not really uh I I trust them and that's that's kind of where I am uh you know I I like the business you know and um and I'll I'll continue to hang on, but there's really no I'm not sort of in this position of authority to tell them how to do their jobs better.

And that's part of my thesis for the company is that I trust that management knows how to best navigate this market. And, you know, it's not a huge position for me, but it's large enough to be large enough to make a difference over the long term as we keep collecting that dividend. Yeah, we've gotten, I mean, that's usually a good sign if the answer is no, I don't have anything. Because if you're a retail investor and you're like, yeah, I'm going to own shares, but I need this one huge change to happen. It's like, maybe you shouldn't own shares. I'm not an activist investor, nor do I have the capital to play that game. But even if I did, I wouldn't ask them to change anything. Right. And I guess this is maybe more of a broader question.

but do you see this as something that can almost be like a barbell approach where you have this really stable company now, granted that a few quarters of just whatever the pandemic hit retailers, there's nothing they could do about it. But in normal environments, you know, you got this really stable company throwing off cash to your portfolio and then, you know, wait that with some higher growth stocks. Is that how you think about it at all? Yeah. You know, and I, I, I don't mind just hanging onto this.

Actually the shares I own, I think are in a Roth IRA. And I'm like, you just, you know, keep, keep just reinvesting, hang on for the long term. And, uh, you know, the majority of my portfolio is in other, uh, pretty high growth, uh, some really volatile names. You guys know that, you know, from watching our, our stuff at seven investing and, uh, but yeah, it's, it's, uh, I think it's worth having a stake. Uh, I wouldn't build an entire portfolio around it, but I think it's a, it's a fantastic business that's great for income investors who are looking for, you know, some decent potential

for not only income, but share price appreciation at the same time. So. Yeah. I mean, the ticker is ROIC. If anything shouts stability, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I think that's all the questions we have. Steve, thank you for joining us. Where can people find you? oh you can find me uh all of our stuff at seven investing.com uh or at seven investing steve on twitter i also man you know their email inboxes and and uh all of our regular handles the at seven investing handle on twitter too but uh we're probably too active there but uh yeah the best part about uh your guys's services you are so reachable um which you know so it's give and take yeah i responded to an email in like 20 seconds yesterday and someone was like is this really you

was that an auto email no yes it is but i just happen to be holding my phone with my wife probably saying like hey you know put your phone down but uh yeah so it's it's uh yeah we're we're almost kind of manic about uh you're obsessive about responding but uh and being accessible but yeah at seven investing steve on twitter if you want to dm me i'm always i'm always responding so perfect perfect all right we want to remind our listeners that we are not financial advisors anything we say or discuss here on chit chat money is not formal advice or recommendation thank you guys for listening we'll see you next time