Chit Chat Stocks - The Future of Bioprinting with Cellink CEO Erik Gatenholm

Episode Date: August 3, 2021

This week, we are joined by Erik Gatenholm, the Co-founder and CEO of Cellink. Cellink is a bio-convergence startup focused on bioprinting. The company's services provide critical breakthroughs in cell culturing, tissue engineering & drug development. Stayed tuned after the amazing interview to hear Brett and Ryan discuss their favorite stories from the week. Let's go! 7investing is empowering members to invest in their future. Use our code “CCM” to get $10 off your first month or annual subscription, or use this link: https://7investing.com/subscribe/ Want more of Erik Gattenholm? Follow him on Twitter: https://twitter.com/egatenholm?s=20 Want updates on future shows and projects? Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/chitchatmoney Rather watch us on video? Subscribe to our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCG5Ni-SI-jyrEsoNUhqftNQ Contact us: [e-mail] Timestamps Interview | (3:29) Interview Continued | (25:45) Show Notes | (43:30) Disclosure: Chit Chat Money hosts and guests are not financial advisors, and nothing they say on this show is formal advice or a recommendation. Brett Schafer and Ryan Henderson are general partners and portfolio managers at Arch Capital. Arch Capital and its partners may hold securities discussed on this show. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Chit Chat Money. Today is Tuesday, August 3rd. Today we have an interview with Eric Gattenholm. He is the CEO of Cellink. Do you want to give a brief explainer on what Cellink is? Yeah, I'm excited for people to listen to this one. This isn't, I mean, it's a stock that is way out of our circle of confidence, but we got to learn a ton about an emerging industry in life sciences, and it is about bioconvergence and bioprinting. So this company has a lot of other subsidiaries and products, but it mainly converges around 3D printing. It's a $4 billion business?

Yeah. So the market cap depends on the day is about a $4 billion market cap. They've been growing rapidly. And again, we're not experts on this company, but it was very fun to talk to him. Eric Gattenholm. Yeah. Again, you can tell it's outside of our circle of competence because we're having trouble describing it. But it's basically 3D printing of human tissues, products that go along with that, the ink.

The inputs for it. The inputs and all that stuff. He explains it. We couldn't get to everything, but he gave a great overview of the company. Also a good sort of entrepreneurship story. Yeah, it was great. Because he started this when he was pretty young. I think he co-founded it.

But after that, we're going to talk our show notes. We've got some big ones this week. I'm talking about Square acquiring Afterpay. And then I'll be talking about Trevor Milton as well. What do you have? I have Robinhood's successful IPO. There's been some things leaking out about that. We can talk about what their debut was, how it went.

And then I have a fun little story from a new book about Tesla and Apple. Great anecdote there. I think it'll be funny to go over that. That's not really a story. It's just a funny anecdote I thought anyone might have. It'd be fun to listen to. Okay, and before we get to the interview, we've got to talk about our sponsors. new recommendation alert

seven investing the picks are out which advisors pick did you like the most oh I don't know I haven't read them all thoroughly yet some of them are not in our avenues but I'll say Max's pick

it was in biotech like you know that's what it says we're not spoiling anything there you kind of get that with the preview but the way he was describing it It sounded like a very compelling opportunity for anyone that's interested in the biotech industry. So that one, I'm going to be interested to dig into. It's not necessarily for me to buy something like that, but all his reports can really help someone understand the industry more and more and try to expand that circle of competence.

Okay. I liked Honor Bonds. I won't get that into it, but the business sounded compelling. So go ahead. Use our code CCM. You get $10 off for your seven investing subscription. Without further ado, let's get to the interview. Welcome to Chit Chat Money.

On this show, hosts Ryan Henderson and Brett Schaefer interview industry experts and riff on the world of investing. As a quick reminder, Chit Chat Money is a CCM Media Group podcast. Ryan and Brett are also general partners at Arch Capital, and Arch Capital may have positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. Anything discussed on Chitchat Money by Ryan or Brett or any other podcast guest is not formal advice or a recommendation. Now, please enjoy this episode.

All right, today we are welcomed by Eric Gattenholm. He is the CEO and founder of Selling, a company that is unique. It's something that we haven't taken a deep look at. We actually were turned on to the idea by an old friend of the show. But I'll let you kind of introduce yourself. Why don't you give us sort of your background, your career, and then how did you even begin to start Selling? Great.

Well, first of all, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to talk to you. I think what you guys are doing is really cool, and it's great to highlight some of the work that our colleagues here at Selling are working on. So thanks for having me, really. Um, Cellink was, was started from, from really the idea that, uh, we see a future where, where we can create and essentially at that time it was just printing, but printing organs and tissues that could use for, um, implantation purposes for reconstruction of, of, of tissues

for, um, obviously repair and defects and damages in humans, but also for the development of drugs and, and products. So we started a company with the idea that in the future, we will be able to print organs that can be used for transplantation purposes. And that was kind of the whole developing idea at a time when the entire industry started to essentially come about. So, I would say, from a timing perspective, we did a lot of things right by starting the company in 2016. Wow. Right, right.

I didn't know it was that young. So, how old were you when you started it? I was 25. Wow. Okay. So, it's been quite the ride. What are some of the pivotal moments? You mentioned that the timing was good.

What are some of the pivotal moments, either from an industry perspective or things that sewing has decided to do that has got the company to where it is today it's a very good question and and i think you know from from our story as a company it all started essentially with a quite simple if i if i can say simple it's a very complex industry and a complex um subject really this bioprinting or or tissue engineering industry but it essentially started with we had a material that could be used for printing of tissues so this material was a biomaterial innovation from a lot of researchers and universities and and this material has the capability of growing human cells in it right so it's a very cell-friendly material and actually it's so cell-friendly that that your

your human cells they they act like they would be inside of the human body so it creates a so-called in vitro environment for culturing these cells. From our understanding when we started the company was essentially that this industry is growing very rapidly. We saw that in the future there's going to be a lot of companies or technologies that enable tissue engineering or production of organs both for transplantation purposes but also for other purposes like developing a new cosmetic product. You could print a piece of skin and then you could test that cosmetic product on that skin instead of using animals. So we saw a lot of different verticals essentially being extended and happening at the same time. And our idea was, okay, so how do we provide a technology or

product that can cater to all of these different verticals that are happening? And the first product was then an ink, a material, this very special material, which is so-called a bio ink, because it's an ink that you put inside of a 3D printer. and that 3d printer instead of printing a plastic component it essentially prints a human tissue so you combine this ink with human cells and then the printer just builds that structure if it's a square or if it looks like an ear or whatever the scientist wants to print but in terms of kind of pivotal moments i would say you know the development of the company has been very incremental so we started with the ink and the first thing we saw was okay the printers on the markets

on the market, they're too expensive and they're too complicated to work with. Scientists, they wanted to buy our ink, but they didn't have printers. And the ones who had printers, they said, oh, you know, it's too complicated with my printer. I don't know how to work it. Can you guys come to our lab? So me and my co-founder, Hector, we would spend a lot of time going to the customer sites and learning what the customer was doing, try to understand their issue and challenges. And the challenge was mainly with the hard work. The printers were too expensive and complicated. So we decided to develop a very cost-effective, actually the first most cost-effective bioprint

in the world, bringing the prices down from about $300,000 for these bioprinters down to $5,000. And that really expanded the market because all of a sudden, bioprinting became a mass market product. It wasn't before. It was only these very highly prestigious universities like Harvard, MIT that could afford bioprinters. But our idea was that this technology will change the world. It belongs in the hands of everyone. So everybody should afford to be able to do bioprinting. So that was kind of the first incremental thing, right? We went from the ink, we went to the printer. And then from the printer, we started adding a lot of other technologies

that are somewhat cost-effective for the masses. And so you mentioned one of those use cases being like cosmetics. Are most of your customers sort of businesses or is it more like labs, hospitals? What kind of customers do you guys have? Yeah, so the customer base has obviously varied over the last couple of years. So we started with the academic customers, right?

The scientists and the researchers. at universities all around the world so so we have our our bioprinters and inks now in more than 65 countries around the world and and many of these customers yes they are academic uh academic users so bioengineering laboratories chemical engineering labs biology labs etc etc and these are kind of the the disruptors of the industry where they are the innovators right these These are the university professors who are going to want to develop new treatments that will come into play in the next two, three decades. These are very important customers. But over the last two, three years, I made a commitment to the company that we will strengthen our foothold into pharmaceutical and cosmetic customers.

So in the last two, three years, we've been working very heavily with expanding that customer base. And today, more than half of our customers are either pharma or biotech companies. So, we've done a massive transition. The reason why I wanted to do that is because I wanted to position the company more towards supplying products and technologies that can actually make an impact today. That's where, really, by printing these tissues for cosmetic companies, for instance, or printing them for pharma companies, those tissues can then be used to develop a new drug. That drug will go into patients in a couple of years. Okay. So you guys sell the initial printers. It sounds like you're kind of the low-cost

provider there. And then is the bio ink, is that more of like a recurring? That's right. So it's a razor razor blade model, right? So you buy the printer for about $5,000. That's the starting point for the printers. We have printers also on the very advanced range that costs about $1.2 million. Over the years, we've become the absolute global leaders in bioprinting by being able to provide essentially the entire scope. We have for the beginners. We have for the more advanced users. We have for the absolute cutting-edge system users. Then, of course, the recurring base is both consumables, so cartridges, nozzles, and and and substrates and things like that and then of course the most important one the bio

inks because the bio ink that's really where the secret sauce is because if you want to print a human liver or or a piece of skin you need to use different inks for different tissues so a liver a liver cell requires a very different environment than what a than a skin cell would require and for that reason the ink state they differ okay that makes sense and do you guys it sounds like you're focused really heavily on this one vertical but how do you guys have any other products because i know you've made some acquisitions over the last few years anything else besides this uh printer and ink model good good question so so about about a year and a half ago we started broadening ourselves a little bit because we saw that there's a lot of you know so we're very customer driven

I would say we're customer-obsessed in that sense. In this industry, it's quite uncommon. In the consumer's industry, it's very common to be very customer-obsessed. But in life sciences, it hasn't really been something that life science companies have capitalized on. But we see ourselves as completely customer-obsessed, and we do what our customers ask us to do. They essentially guide us forward. A lot of our strategy is based on what our customers are asking for in terms of products and future needs.

When we started with the bioprinters and the inks, Hector, my co-founder, and myself, we would go out to these laboratories and install these printers. We would do 200, 250 travel days a year. We would go to all these labs and visit these customers. Amazing, cool laboratories. They would tell us, oh, we're using your printer for printing cartilage. and then we're looking to develop these new devices that can go into humans in the next coming decades. We're trying to treat these diseases, so we're using your printer and ink

to print this liver, and then we're testing this new medicine, and it's so cool. We would talk to these customers, and they would tell us their stories. Then they would always tell us the next step of the workflow or the next step in their needs from a product perspective. They would say, first, we print the tissue, and then we want to dispense different medicines. We say, okay, so how do you dispense the medicines? Oh, we do that by hand. Doesn't that take a lot of time? Yeah, but we can't really find a cost-effective or a good solution for doing that with a robot

or a system. So, you know, going to enough customers, we would start developing an idea. Hey, a lot of these users, they need a liquid handling robot or an automation system that can dispense a lot of small droplets, essentially, of medicine onto these printed tissues. So, we said, why don't we just develop a very simple liquid handling robot that can do that? And at that time, you know, the company was, I think, over 30 people. So, we said, our resources are quite stretched. We found a small German company in Stuttgart called Dispendex, and we acquired them.

That was the first acquisition in 2018. They had developed this really, really cool, small, benchtop, cost-effective liquid handling robot that would dispense very, very tiny droplets. That essentially opened up an entire new market for us, liquid handling, which was – we had zero market share in liquid handling before that acquisition. so so that opened up a new area and and from that area we did the same thing right so we went to these customers we sold them these types of liquid handling robots we offer them together with our printers and then the customer would say oh you know microscopy would be a very very interesting addition to this you know a better microscope so that i can look at these cells or look at these tissues under a microscope in a much simpler way so we went into that and we developed that

product etc etc and then eventually we built this idea that our business is not in just bioprinting our business is in bioconvergence and bioconvergence is essentially by taking a lot of these different technologies like robotics or engineering and and hardware technologies and combining it with biology we can answer much bigger questions so so that's kind of how the company has pivoted over the last couple of years and and that now enables us to provide customers with a more holistic product portfolio okay yeah that makes sense so since it's such an early you're you're one of the companies that's trying to build out this industry you're kind of trying to push it forward right the that's right so the the problem these your customers are finding is

that the equipment they had wasn't specifically for the, I don't know the proper terms, the bioprinting use case. So they need this specific equipment that can help them with that. I know that's not very a scientific answer, but that's kind of what you've been seeing over the last few years. Yeah, yeah. So we've been seeing a lot of additional technology that these customers needed to enable them to print the tissues, right?

So if we take an example from the car industry, right? So you look at Tesla, right? So say that Tesla was good at, say, the storage, the batteries, right? So they developed a really good battery, and then they started selling these batteries. And then the customer would say, oh, you know what? It would be great if the battery also came with four wheels, right? And then you started building a car around it. and and i think what what what we're doing here is that we're exploring or we're seeing a much

greater potential for the products and technologies that we're offering by combining these different areas and we're essentially paving the way for the next decades of tissue engineering or regenerative medicine industry to come and that's what's so exciting because no other company has essentially taken that position in the past they've been kind of working in silos and and so that's and you've had the for instance the printer makers they were just making printers and they were making really good printers but they were quite expensive but you know if anybody talked to them and said hey why haven't you thought of you know making the ink oh we're not ink makers you know we don't know material we don't know uh we don't know cells we just know the hardware

really well. What we learned very well to do was to combine these types of companies in an environment where we can then provide these to end users or to the researchers for them to answer the bigger questions. We're kind of the visionaries who see what products go well together, and this is based on essentially only customer feedback. Are you still doing a lot of those travel days where you go out and figure out sort of what they're looking for. Absolutely. My time is spent a lot with customers, listening to customers and users. I think that's critical for me to stay sane because one of those early fears that I had as an entrepreneur is that I will lose sight of the customer or the user. When we do that,

we become like a science company. That's scary because science companies can sometimes be driven by internal motivation or ideas of what the customer might want, but it might be very far away from what the customer actually wants. When you find something where one of your customers says, like, we would love to have this product or this is sort of a bottleneck or complication for us. Do you prefer to develop that in-house or acquire it through the German use case that you talked about earlier? What are some of the benefits to each strategy? Yeah. I think we would prefer to develop it ourselves in-house because we could control the process better. We have excellent engineers all around the world. We have

great ways of developing products through you know making them very user-friendly making them somewhat cost-effective building a business model around those so there's always like a consumable aspect and an instrument aspect or if it's a reagent and and system or whatever it may be but as long as the business model needs to stay the same but sometimes we're just so swarmed um that it the solution might already be out there and it might be a company that that uh is available is looking for it for a more strategic way forward. And at that point, we go with the acquisition way. And when we acquire companies, we have a quite simple formula. I mean, we look at companies from three perspectives. Obviously, the product has to fit what the customer is asking

for. But taking in consideration that it does, the first thing is that the company has to have revenues, right? The company has to have some source of revenue from these types of products, because we don't want to buy essentially technology companies that haven't proven their commercial viability yet. I think that's quite dangerous or it could be potentially dangerous in these very, very complicated fields of science. Number two is that the company needs to be at some kind of break-even point, either make money or be at a break-even because we don't want to be weighed down by their P&L, but we also want to make sure that they have an understanding them how to manage their business and their company. And it's a viable one. And the third

criteria is that they need to have somewhat of a proven business model. So if they're offering a razor blade model, they need to have proven that, right? So that's obviously also coming into the first question of revenues or the second question of profitability. So upon these three criterias, we can engage and and see if we can make you know get a deal and do you i guess like how do you find companies like the one you talked about earlier is it like you've heard of them before or are you just going out there looking for like who builds this already quick google search that was most of them are google searches right okay i mean maybe not google search but but you know it's some dispendix was a google search um cytina was at a conference you know many of these

are either at conferences customer sites or google searches all right all right and then what so this industry you know the talent like the scientists themselves they're pretty highly sought after how do you attract them and how do you retain them because you know a lot of people or i guess the big concern people have with like an M&A strategy is keeping that cohesive framework, keeping people around because, you know, everyone in the back of their mind is like, all right, if we, as an investor, you're like, all right, they're buying this company. What's going to keep them from not, you know, jumping ship two, three years down the line. Yeah. And, and, and I guess that's, that is the scary point for, for all acquisition projects, right? So something important for us

when we acquire companies is that we want to maintain the businesses as much as possible kind of as as as is right so we want to keep management we want to keep ceos we want to keep all the team members and we approach acquisitions from the perspective of that we have something to offer together right so there is a there is something a a a combined offering that we will provide to customers with the kind of bioconvergence workflow of products, but then also they have their ongoing and current business that they have to continue to cater to. And I think that, you know, from that perspective, it's important that the CEOs understand that they are absolutely critical for our continued success.

So, we will, of course, do as much as we possibly can to make sure that these management teams and leaders of these organizations feel 100% comfortable coming on board, and we make that somewhat of a requirement during the acquisition process. But it's a sensitive walk because you can't force people to do something. Obviously, you can have different contractual arrangements that make sure that management teams and things stay on board, but we want people to be very passionate about what they're doing. We're trying to create an environment within this group of companies that essentially promotes excellence and going above and beyond for customers because our purpose is to really create a better world through these medical innovations and scientific breakthroughs.

And if you're in a leadership position in an entity that's being acquired and you're drawn to this and you're passionate about the business that you're providing, then you're going to love being part of this journey. You're going to find this exhilarating to be part of this. If not, well, then you might not be the right person moving forward anyway. But I can tell you, from all the acquisitions we've done, we've never replaced any management. We just don't do. I love the management teams and the CEOs that are part of this group. I think they are my biggest heroes. Nice. Do you have anything else before we take a break, Ryan? Yeah, I have a lot more questions, but let's hit a break first and then we'll see you guys back on the back half.

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This episode is brought to you by KPMG. As a business leader, how can you innovate, build trust, and move forward in a digital era? KPMG can help by bringing together the right talent and technologies, generating insights that spark opportunities. To explore their thinking, visit read.kpmg.us slash opportunities. Welcome back. And I'm going to kick things off with, I have a question on top of mine. When you guys already have a customer, I'm trying to think of it from the customer side, do they prefer to have one manufacturer and supplier? Is there any advantage to having it all come from the same place, like all these different parts that you're talking about?

It's a good question. It becomes kind of the question of the consolidation strategy. And I think from our perspective, we've been quite adamant about keeping things decentralized because we believe that, you know, these companies that we acquire that join us in the group, they are experts at what they're doing. And I feel like it's quite risky to go to a company that's been around for 15 or 20 years and say, I know how to make your product better. I'm going to put it inside of a centralized manufacturing system that will handle all of your logistics and production. From that perspective, I try to keep things as decentralized as possible. Will it make it easier for customers to buy it from one source?

It could be. We're working quite heavily in terms of finding synergies between the sales forces and finding synergies between the different sales departments and purchasing departments at the customer sides to make sure that, you know, maybe they get one invoice or maybe they can get, you know, one customer facing representative and making sure that they get the best possible care. But we try to stick to this decentralized strategy as much as possible. Right. And then back to the product side, you might not, you know, if there's anything that you guys are working on that you can't share, you know, obviously you don't want to share that,

But what are some applications out there for selling products that might be under the radar that someone, just a generalist like ourselves, might not be thinking about? That's a great question. A good example, obviously, and it's always this, creating tissues outside of the body. You know, we did an acquisition in March this year. It was a company called Matic. Matic is a Boston-based tissue engineering company. Over the last 20, 30 years, they've been supplying the chemicals industry, the cosmetics industry, and a few other industries with these human tissues, literally squares of skin that are then being used for product

development. So if you want to, for instance, understand if an adhesive, a glue that you put on a post-it note or whatever product you want to create, if that could hurt your eyes or it could hurt your skin, you obviously don't test that on a human, right? Because that would be quite unethical. And you don't test it on animals because that's unethical as well. So what do you do well you have to test it somehow well you can use these these these created human pieces of skin and then you put this adhesive on this skin and then you and then you essentially evaluate how that skin reacts and this company's been been making this for for 20 30 years it's just it just baffles me how amazing it is that that all of these chemicals and products and and and creams

and cosmetics that are being used out around the world have been tested now on on a essentially in a lab created human part right it's amazing yeah that's i mean that's that is yeah thinking about it that is that is crazy what so that brings up another point though what you know you have a lot of the core customers within like your research departments you know those seem like steady customers but at least from our view it seems like there's a lot of hurdles to get to the commercial aspects of these things what kind of barriers are not maybe not barriers but what kind of hurdles do you guys have to jump over to get to the commercial is it commercialization of a lot of a lot of these products you guys offer it's actually not too big of hurdles i mean the

products that we offer so so so many of these products that we offer they're on the research side of things right so we're not in in the human body yet so so we haven't you know we don't print devices that go into patients that's mostly our customers job so we try to stay on the technology provider side of things so it's kind of it's kind of you know tesla sells a car and then to to a taxi firm and that taxi firm uses that car to provide a service or a product so we're trying to really be the technology provider that enables our customers to do the things that they want to do with their business. So the barriers of entry for us is typically quite low.

Okay. That makes sense. All right. I think that clears things up. If you're acquiring another company, so like MoTeC, for example, what's kind of your sales pitch, or in this case, buying pitch? Why should they join selling? Or why do they feel inclined to?

Yes. As a bioconvergence company, our duty and responsibility of this world is to create a better world of medicine, to create products that are more personalized, to create new treatments that can actually heal patients and not just heal symptoms. and and i think that as a seller or as a selling company you you all of a sudden you see yourself in a position where you're a a missing puzzle piece and you can fit this bigger puzzle and you become part of something much greater so first of all of course it de-risks your business a little bit right now you're part of something much greater that is that is growing extremely rapidly that is very hungry for global expansion and growth, and that has muscles and funds to take your business to the next level. Again, it kind of comes back to that great question you guys had in terms of the people. I think that's a really important one because companies are all about

people. People build good companies and products. If the people are enthusiastic about being part of something greater and being part of a growth journey, then they will love this, and they will sell their company to us, and we will love to work with them for a long period of time. If that's not their thing, if their thing is to exit, those things become quite obvious, right? I mean, it's kind of like the questions during the DD, or if you're evaluating a business for sale and all the sellers talk about are their personal compensation when they leave the business? How much extra bonus can they get out after the transaction

and things like that? It's not as enticing for us to continue it. What we want to understand is how can we together create a much better and bigger company? No, that makes sense. Yeah, the red flags that you can see, you're kind of looking for those and that'll say like, all right, this is not someone we'd want to partner with. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So the people that you've acquired so far, even though it may have came from a Google search, they're enthusiastic to be a part of a more holistic approach to this bioconvergence space?

They are. They are. They definitely are. And they see the big picture. And they see how they fit into that bigger picture and can provide both the group with more technologies and products for the portfolio, but also their users, right? So, for instance, take this example. As a small business of, say, 30 employees, right, you offer your product and you're competing with companies with 500 employees. From a customer perspective, customers try to buy from companies that are bigger because it's typically safer, right? It's probably more customers that buy from them. So, so you have this, you're at least pictured as being a little bit of a riskier when you're smaller, right? You're still growing and up and coming and you haven't really proven your

technology yet. So as a small company of say 30 people, you're always fighting with larger companies. But now all of a sudden, when you're part of the group, well, now you're a thousand people company so even though the just your company is still 30 people and growing you're still part of a thousand people unit and that means that when you're pitching to your customer all of a sudden you've you know you've become essentially reinvented as as a again as a part of something bigger and that's really attractive for it for both the customer perspective which is now buying products from a much bigger player that is much safer it's going to be around tomorrow It's going to be continuously growing and it's going to keep these customers happy. But these customers might also find other products and services from the group now that they see fit into their needs.

okay i have one more on products um sure maybe a tough one to answer but and you already talked about the uh you know the testing on the uh i guess i'd call artificial tissue what is something that is an exciting application that you know a selling product is either or sorry a selling customer maybe is doing now or maybe in the near future something that is coming down the line very good question uh there is a um so so a lot of cool things that some of our customers are not on the kind of cosmetic or tissue engineering side looking more on the liquid handling side of things you know biosensors biosensors is becoming a more increasingly important thing for for for a lot of different industries so wearables for instance so being able to wear a sensor on your

skin that can not only read, for instance, your heartbeat, but read your perspiration. It can read different things from your sweat. It can be a constant monitoring of how your body is reacting to things as you're eating, as you're sleeping, as you're walking. Body liquids are great ways for us to monitor human health and, essentially, how to continue our daily lives. That's an area that hasn't really been explored as strongly as I think it will be in the next coming years. We see a lot of products and technologies are being developed for it, and we're catering to that industry, essentially, by being able to develop and help these companies produce

these different sensors. So biosensors is definitely a really hot area that I think is going to be, I think it will be exploding over the next coming years. You've seen a little bit of that from COVID when you're trying to develop different tests that are based on either saliva or it's based on, some of them are blood-based, some of them are urine-based, et cetera, et cetera. But analyzing body liquids is going to be increasingly important and doing that real time. Okay. From a more broader business standpoint, let's say in a perfect world, five to 10 years down the road, where is Cellink then? Five to 10 years down the road, Cellink is going to be, you know, I think Cellink will be of the size I want it to be at least, you know, five to 10,000 people, you know, a very large

company with with uh significant impact in the in the health industry by providing essentially products to to the four the four main segments that we're offering today so bioprinting or again tissue tissue engineering um the second one is is genomics or multiomics to be able to analyze genome and and again much on the on the personalized health side of things um saline development for biopharmaceutical manufacturing. And lastly, diagnostics. And again, in diagnostics, you come anywhere from lateral flow, these 15-minute quick tests to biosensors. So I think a company that really caters in and provides workflows to customers that enables them to do more with the data they're already collecting from patients and science.

Okay. We have one more question. Let's try to have another one. Yeah. I guess wrap-up questions. I've heard this one asked before, so I kind of want to ask it as well. As a CEO, what do you think you do well and then what do you think you could do better? Very good question. It's important to reflect on these things. If I can start with what I think I do well is I think I'm very commercially oriented around our customers and i think you know this customer obsession is something that i promote very strongly within the organization um i i i tend to and i like to be the voice of the customer internally so typically when we're trying to develop new products always try to take the

perspective saying okay well have we talked to the customer what is the customer actually saying about this is this user friendly enough let's go out let's try it right let's try it with the customers and users. So really bringing that voice of customer internally and promoting through strong teamwork to really take that customer interaction and input into consideration. What I could do better is, obviously, there are a lot of improvements. There are a lot of improvements that I can do. I think I'm learning in terms of how to mature as a public corporation leader. I think that's an area that I don't have as much experience, obviously, as many of the other public company CEOs, but it's an area that I think I need to learn more from in terms of

talking to investors, talking to funds, talking to the public market, positioning the company more as a public company rather than maybe a high-growth startup. I think that's a transition phase right so so as as we're transitioning now from just being a essentially three people company five years ago to now being a thousand people company um we have to be able to transition and that involves personal development so i think that's that's something i could definitely work on all right now we're going to wrap things up with the classic uh what advice do you have for anyone that's looking to start a business? That's a great question. From starting this company, one of the most important things that we did right was that we sold the idea

before we had the product. I know that's a controversial question because I know a lot of entrepreneurs are very very careful in terms of don't oversell don't you know don't promise things that you can't deliver on there is a you know there could be disasters coming from that but we still went on and we did it from the beginning we we sold the ideas of the products and the knowledge that we were developing so we can very very early on understand the commercial viability of what we're about to build. So, for instance, the BioInk, we would go to customers before the product existed and we would pitch to them and say, hey, we're developing a BioInk that will work in this

way, right? It's going to have these properties or specifications. Would you be interested in buying? Would you be one of our beta users? And they loved it. I mean, most of these customers were all over this and said, as soon as you have a product ready, send it to us. We'd love to pay for it and we'd love to try it for you.

a lot of entrepreneurs need to learn from from quite early days right dare to sell dare to sell your product and your idea very early on don't be afraid that somebody's going to steal it honestly it's it's that's that's a very big scare for a lot of entrepreneurs they think that if they share their idea with someone if they try to sell something you know these people will steal that idea yeah stealth mode right isn't that the stealth i ah you know when i see these stealth startups it scares me because it's like how are they going to get out there i mean the power and the aggressive posture that you need to have to build a massive global company is unbelievable you have to be selling your idea 24 7 there is no stealth mode all right that's a great way to wrap

up yeah i guess uh for anyone that's listening that wants to find you what's the best place twitter twitter instagram uh email you know eg at selling.com shoot me an email my you know my cell phone number is still out there i still get calls from everywhere you know i used to have my cell phone number as the office number so we're just transitioning from that now so you know i get calls from everywhere but you know uh yeah anywhere twitter linkedin add me on linkedin perfect all right thank you for your time thanks for your time guys cox panoramic wi-fi includes advanced security to help protect all your connected devices you'll get real-time alerts oh like this one so you don't have to worry about malware

or when your kid downloads a song from a shady link and now all your computer can play is red color red color where are you all blocked thanks to advanced security included with cox panoramic wi-fi advanced security must be enabled in the panoramic Wi-Fi app. Restrictions apply. All right, welcome back in. Thanks again to Eric Gattenholm for coming on the show. It was a pleasure to have you, but we are going to get to our stories for the week. And the first one, this one kind of grabbed the headlines for the whole week. Fintech, I would say maybe this is the merger of the year. Biggest merger in acquisition. I mean, outside of, yeah, I mean, because Visa acquiring Plaid or played whatever, however you

say it was a huge merger last year i guess that got nixed but this is six seven times as big so why don't you talk about it yeah so square is set to acquire after pay this was announced sunday night the same time that they released their square release their second quarter earnings which is i mean a sunday night earnings release i don't know i've seen that before i don't envy uh well i do what i do like about squares that they don't go in they don't follow like the uh the format of, oh, we got to release right after the close. It's got to be a certain format. We got to do the conference call exactly like this. They don't do that. But I think it may have ruined some relaxing Sunday evenings for some Square shareholders. Matt, all those guys out there,

I think, you know, I don't envy you last night having to go over this report. Probably a little stressful, but exciting. Yeah. And so they announced, I guess they paired that earnings release with the announcement that they have entered into a scheme implementation deed. That's a great name. That's what they call it. That's a good name. And it's stating that Square would acquire all of Afterpay's shares in exchange for 0.375 shares of Square. So you're getting, if you're an Afterpay shareholder, you're going to get 0.375 shares of Square for each one you own.

Seeing the stock up 10% today probably was, well, is that good? I hate doing this mental math in my head. That would be pretty good for Afterpay shareholders. Although it's not going to close for a long time. Yeah, it's kind of hard to think. Sometimes the all-stock deals are a little confusing, but you've got to write it down. Apparently the market liked it because it's up 10% on the news, or maybe it's on earnings. It could be either one.

It could be, yeah, true, true. So this values the deal at $29 billion, so that's how much they're paying for afterpay. And it's roughly, we'll get into it a little bit, but it's 42 times their last 12-month sales. Obviously a hefty premium. And as Square's stock goes up, the acquisition price gets higher. Right. And then Square says they had a whole deck on, I guess, the synergies, if you will. And so they said this should enhance both their seller and Cash App ecosystem.

They said they can cross-sell a lot of the Square merchant solutions to Afterpay's merchants that have already signed on or use Afterpay and so forth. And then Cash App users will be able to manage their Afterpay repayments. So if you're not familiar with Afterpay, it's just a buy now, pay later solution. It's like the alternative to credit cards for younger generations, I guess is a good way to describe it. So you can start to manage those repayments directly from the app. And then you can also shop from within the Cash App now. So if you're familiar with the Afterpay app or the website, they have connections to every merchant that accepts Afterpay. And they're focused on fashion and apparel.

So it's kind of like focused on doing that. It's a bit like, I guess you could call it mobile commerce. And that's apparently a big differentiator between them and a lot of other buy now, pay later providers is the leads, or they call it the merchant lead gen, which is viable. And then they also believe they can easily grow the afterpay customer base by just granting them access to the 70 million annual transacting customers on the Cash App. Obviously, there's areas you can cross sell in there. And if you go look at the layout that they're thinking of on the slide deck, it's pretty interesting. Oh, it's a beautiful, beautiful slide deck. You can pair this with Boost pretty well.

But this was a 31% premium to Afterpay's market price. I believe some people had it at 20%. It depends on where it closed, where you're referencing. Right. And so, anyway, 42 times sales. They're growing those sales at 92% year over year. I guess the question, Sarah, do you buy the synergies that they're touting? Sure.

Yeah, yeah. I definitely buy it. I don't think anyone can question that it fits. You have to ask, though, is it worth diluting by $30 billion or possibly higher or lower, depending on where the stock goes, for something that PayPal built themselves? Is it worth it? Maybe. That's kind of the big question.

And yeah, as you're getting the existing customers, but if you did buy now pay later through the Cash App, wouldn't you get those too already? Right? Am I wrong thinking that? I think we don't give enough credit to what Afterpay has built because, I mean, Cash App has a history of building everything themselves. You know what I mean? Yeah, I guess that's right.

The stocks, the Bitcoin transacting, the boost, all that stuff. it's kind of been their ideas i guess if you will title well yeah i guess i don't know what the hell they're doing with that but um so i don't know i mean obviously they couldn't there was a reason they chose after pay instead of just going and creating their own bnpl or solution maybe it's that lead gen maybe it's the existing relationships they have with merchants yeah we did a show on after pay a few months ago and i came away impressed because going in you think all right this is just a commodity product, pretty easy to replicate. That's why there's so many people doing it, why PayPal has been able to do it pretty easily, and why almost every other company is

going to be able to replicate it. But the reason it seemed like Afterpay won is because of the go-to-market strategy. And I think we compared it a bit to Square's Cash App strategy, where they, again, the peer-to-peer payment stuff, just sending money to people, that's a bit of a commodity, but they were able to kind of surpass Venmo and Growth, or maybe they're kind of neck neck now because of their go-to-market strategy with talking with hip-hop artists focusing on bitcoin stuff like that so i think the similarities in not like you can argue whatever buy now pay later it's just a commodity product and it's easy to replicate but after pay's go-to-market strategy is why they have been winning and growing a lot faster than others yeah i also think the after pay

solution their core competency that buy now pay later just the aversion to credit overlaps really well with cash apps customer base or tricking people that it's not credit i mean it's credit we can't deny i mean it's without an inch without interest it's still credit i mean it's a it's interest-free credit yeah i mean that's it's still credit do you think this is worth it and then i guess we are bitter x shareholders now so keep that i was square yeah i guess that's true yeah I mean, I don't think any company is worth 42 times sales. I hate to say it. I don't know.

The acquisition makes sense, yeah. But when people are like, well, price doesn't matter. I mean, they're going after this huge market opportunity, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It works well. They're going to accelerate both businesses. I mean, okay, yeah, then I don't know. Price still matters in the equation. and it is, it is not, I wouldn't say it's insane if they can grow a hundred percent and get that

sales multiple down really quickly. But man, I mean, these margins aren't like, it's not like they're going to get to 40% free cashflow margins on this type of business. It's not like it's something like Facebook, Google, other software companies where you think they deserve a teen sales multiple because of those cashflow margins. It's going to be lower unless I'm mistaken. I guess one of the other arguments is that because there's so many different BNPL providers that it's going to be commoditized and AfroPay is going to see some fee compression. But now I think this kind of changes that because if lead gen was good then, if that was a big enough differentiator, it's going to be even bigger now when you have the 70, whatever, 60, 70 million transacting customers on the cash app. Yeah, 40 million monthly. I would count those are the key.

40 million monthly 70 million 70 million annually yeah i mean yeah it makes sense they're gonna there's no doubt after pace growth is gonna accelerate but you gotta okay look when you're under 29 billion into r&d i have a hard time r&d and sales and marketing we know how good cash apps team is that is at sales and marketing i have a hard time believing they couldn't have built a viable competitor oh yeah for sure and if you look at where the okay and i all i can think about is stock's up 10% today. You're going to dilute with 0.375 of every one of your shares is going to be diluted by 0.375. So 37.5, oh, is that the right percentage? Whatever. You know what I mean? Rhyme over the transaction value. And then on top of that, I bet you, because,

and I haven't looked at these in a while, but I bet you there are a lot of options sitting on in Square's balance sheet that have not been realized yet. I mean, the dilution headwinds are fat. How I think about it, you know, what's going to drive Square's growth over the long-term and I've only been keeping up with them lightly over the last few quarters. But say early last year, you could underwrite Cash App as basically the core driver of Square's long-term growth. You had to assume, you know, maybe 50 million monthly active users that were spending, you know, get gross profit for customer up by two X or something like that. And it makes a whole lot of sense from what it was in like the summer of last year. And they basically did that. And it's

been very impressive. Gross profit, like on the cash app has doubled and the two year CAGR is like 120%, which is insane and really, really strong. But now with the stock up so much, you'd have to expect probably even more growth. And then now add on this after pay. Yeah, you're adding a great asset. But now you got to expect, I mean, I don't know, 100 million to 150 million Cash App customers that are worth a whole lot more than what you needed back a year ago. I mean, you need to expect Cash App customers to be worth so much more. You need to expect gross profit per customer to skyrocket over the next few years. The only thing I'd say is that, and I don't want to go on about this for too long,

but this seems like the kind of business where an acceleration of growth drives further growth. There's a network effect, clearly. Yeah, but it's more... It's kind of. I mean, it's kind of, kind of, kind of. I mean, the peer-to-peer part, easily. Yeah, but they don't make any money on that.

They're making money on deposits. I'm talking about user growth and then feeding it into everything else. Yeah. I'm concerned, though, about Bitcoin. Bitcoin's their big customer acquisition driver. But you also love, all right, so you're a Cash App user. You use Boost.

You brag about it all the time to me. That's probably going on everywhere. Yeah, I just don't. If they added Buy Now, Pay Later, maybe I'd use it. But, I mean, I don't know how much more am I going to spend with them. I use all my daily spending with them because they have the Boost. How much more am I going to be worth to them? i don't know i don't know it seems if they got the thing is you gotta you have to see

the cash app needs to be worth so much more than what you had to make square a good investment from here cash app has to be printing 10 5 7 10 billion in cash flow at some point i wouldn't say that's out of the realm of possibility yeah i know but it's just uh It just seems every time they do something, you're just adding more and more expectations, and that's just adding more risk to your investment. I don't know. I think it could easily work out. It'll be exciting to see from the sidelines, I guess.

Yeah. What's your story? Okay, Robinhood's IPO. So they went public on Thursday. Stock is down about 4% since its debut, so pretty normal pricing, nothing crazy. Market cap right now is around $31 billion. dollars but there are a few things that were interesting that happened that i am not sure can be called a full coincidence or maybe shed some light on the um ethics of the founder so

first we're not the founders just the company so first from bloomstrand's tweet thread so chris bloomstrand who's a uh we like him a lot yeah i guess yeah he's a good follow on twitter very seasoned investor. He's been around, you know, he's been doing this for a few decades. If you're on Twitter, I'd recommend following him, but he had a great thread on all the ownership and fundraising dynamics and the business dynamics of the Robinhood IPO. If you listen to our deep dive, he goes even deeper through a tweet thread from like 40 tweets. It was pretty impressive, but he calculated that the average, you know, quote, take rate on customers is 3% of their assets a year so even if commissions are down from whatever it was one percent you're the you're

still basically paying a three percent commission fee per year is this better than the brokerage houses of the 80s uh no well maybe maybe the 80s maybe uh but i weren't thinking like one or two it wasn't like one or two percent uh yeah i mean it was a little lower but you get they could really gouge oh no excuse me it wasn't it was fixed it was fixed so if you were small you got totally screwed with like oh i forget the exact number but yeah it's worse for the small guy but okay this type of stuff you know you can benefit when you're an individual and you're a buy and hold and you don't actually do anything but if you're not it seems like on average people are getting screwed over here uh but we've been over that before if you want to hear about how all the

business works, I'd recommend listening to our not-so-deep dive on them. But another interesting note is that the CLO, which is Chief Legal Officer of Robinhood, Dan Gallagher, joined in May 2020 and has shares given to him that will be valued at, I think, $100 million right now. I got this from an article, so if it's different than what the SEC filing says, apologies, but that's a ballpark. He got a lot of money for joining about a year ago. He also used to work at the SEC. Should that – I feel like that should be not legal, right? There needs to be a grace period, right? This is how the – we've watched Billions.

You start at the SEC so that you can get a good – Billions is very real. A good attorney spot at a big financial house. Or it reminds me of the scene in the big short when the girls like who – it was his cousin, one of the people's cousins or friend was like – Banking and – She's like, at the SEC, we don't do anything anymore. And she's like, oh, I've got to talk to him.

And she's like, he's at Goldman. You know, I've got to get in. I mean, yeah, that presents some problems, obviously, because also SEC, you don't want to prosecute someone you might work for in the future. Exactly. There are certainly some bad narratives there. It makes no sense.

Here's also something that was a bit concerning to me. So Robinhood allotted shares to their customers, which is kind of cool. See how that happens. But they are restricting users from future IPO allotments if they sell their Robinhood shares before a certain time period. I think it's like three, six months. I wonder if it coincides with the lockup period. But during the IPO, CEO Vlad Tenev dumped $275 million worth of stock.

so i just see that and i'm like what are we what are we selling to people here it is the most we've been over it we've probably belabored this point but we think the entire business is low than hypocrisy yeah i mean it's crazy it's crazy it's like an analogy is like uh i was gonna analogize it or make an analogy to purdue pharma but i think that's that'd be a bit strong uh okay here's a question robin had stuck below or above 40 a share five years from now well it's not as addictive as it is it's not recurring revenue like what if we hit a peak trading activity this year there's a very real world in which revenue declines next year if i could tell you that for i could tell you what the maybe if i got access to future trading volume but

That's an unknown. I've been thinking about that a lot. They went public at the most opportune time. After the GameStop craze. Oh, yeah. And they're going to print some real nice because of the Dogecoin in Q2, but that's dead. I mean, Dogecoin is terrible. You know, the snowball gets big enough that the incremental demand from Robinhood traders doesn't move prices enough that it bores people and they stop.

Yeah, it's hinging on sentiment. And I am interested in knowing how these insiders have acted. I am very interested to see what happens from now until the lockup period or after the lockup period. All right. That's all I got for that. I wanted to track Robinhood. My next story is down goes Trevor Milton. So last week, the SEC charged Trevor Milton with disseminating false and misleading information,

typically by speaking directly to investors through social media. So a quote from the SEC press release. It says, Milton allegedly used his extensive media platform to repeatedly mislead investors about, among other things, Nikola's technological advancements, products, in-house production capabilities, and commercial achievements. The complaint further alleges that Milton ultimately reaped tens of millions of dollars in personal benefits as a result of his misconduct. They also, I guess, like all the SEC staff members got Twitter accounts this week. Not sure. That's good. That's good.

I mean, and they pretended that they weren't just eavesdropping? Well, before, I mean. They were like, hey, we're new. Check us out. I mean, they've clearly been on before. I guess. But the SEC released a video on Twitter, and it was the SEC enforcement officer. I might be messing this name up.

Gerber Grewal. And he was talking, I guess, at like a press conference, and he was explaining the charges. And he said, this case also demonstrates that corporate officers cannot say whatever they want on social media without regard for the federal securities laws. Now, it sounds a bit like this is a step in the right direction. Well, yeah, why aren't certain other executives? What's going on? Milton pleaded not guilty, and he was freed on a $100 million bond secured against two of his properties in Utah. Must be some damn nice properties.

I mean, he's worth a lot of money, yeah. unfortunately uh and okay a lot of videos resurfaced resurfaced of milton talking to on instagram live of him like i can't wait till five years from now i think he bet them like bet a bunch of short sellers and now his social medias are gone hey i'll brag we called it from the beginning so uh i wouldn't say it was a very tough call or a tough bet to make but yeah it felt frotty. Hey, everyone was hyping him up last summer. Or last May and June.

In his plea, Milton's legal team stated, every executive in America should be horrified. Trevor Milton is an entrepreneur who had a long-term vision of helping the environment by cutting carbon emissions in the trucking industry. So, this is not securities

manipulation if he's pleading to the ESG crowd. Well, it's a long-term vision. I mean, it's ESG if your stock goes up. It's Rich is Now Environmental Consciousness in 40 Years. Yeah, yeah. I mean, dude, yeah. I mean, if you have a long-term vision, you can commit fraud.

I would just use this. If you're an investor in a company, look at this and say, is there anything similar? And I would read the WeWork book. I can't wait to read that because that's going to help a lot of lessons in identifying not necessarily like a Nicoletta Short or anything like that, but like is there any risks of fraud within companies i own because you can buffett talked about this a lot i think they ask like once or twice that they've asked at all of the annual meetings throughout the years they're like well you know they ask him like oh how do you identify these fraudsters or you know would you ever short a company that's committing fraud and he's like

well we don't we don't short it's not you know we can't do it we're too big it's not in our playbook but he's like we pretty easily had a huge success rate in identifying these fraudsters because they have the same telltale signs so i'd use this as a lesson of going forward like finding i'm not gonna name any names but these all had the blatant red flags the worst part about this nicola's market cap is still 4.4 billion it's because there's just no how's it not zero it's just because there's no uh is that how much cash they have on the balance sheet or something no you gotta look at their holders someone someone put it up i mean it's just like passive holders I mean, there's just nothing going on.

It's weird. It's just kind of sitting there and no one's doing anything. I have a question, though. Are you worried that they were using podcast transcripts and, I guess, podcasts themselves as evidence? That, you know, I was like, ooh, all right. Maybe. I think it has more to do with the Instagram live video of him rolling a truck down a hill. Well, they had, like, four podcast interviews in their deposition.

so uh this i know this was a pretty obvious case but does this make you for me it made me a little bit proud of the sec for the first time in a while because it felt like they were you know finally prosecuting someone for wrongdoing this new team has been here for what few months yeah um the old team i mean i forget the old team the head of the is the old guy uh i forget his name but no gensler's the guy there now but whoever the old guy was i investigate him because dude it was clear and he was just ignoring everything i want to know why why was he ignoring everything does this give you a little more optimism about the sec moving forward that maybe yeah it's good unethical behavior won't be tolerated yeah i like it uh i mean i feel like

I sound like a tattletale, but come on. It's like I can figure it out, and I'm not good at this. Yeah, we can all figure it out. I mean, I tweet that thing, the meme that floats around of the LeBron James and J.R. Smith, LeBron James throwing his hands up, yelling, is everyone, and then J.R. Smith is the SEC. It's like do something. They finally did something.

I hope it's a step in the right direction because the reason the SEC, Like the SEC has been a great force throughout the last – well, it's not a century yet. Basically a century of keeping financial markets as cleaner because before the SEC in the roaring 20s, the panic in 1907, stuff along there. I mean it was just criminal. The sidewalk brokerage or whatever. Yeah, the curb markets. All that stuff was pure criminality. Financial documents.

Yeah, I mean, just look at the history of that stuff. And before the SEC, it was just so much crime. And to have them here and actually acting correctly, I mean, it's great. People don't get screwed. People are losing billions, and Adam Neumann, Trevor Milton, maybe Elizabeth Holmes, I don't know if she kept any of her money, are worth $100 million or more. I mean, that's criminal. What's your last story here?

Okay, let's wrap things up with a very funny story. Now, if you're listening and you are an Elon Musk fan, which I know a lot of people are, you might have seen that he— It's probably the time to sign off. Well, it's just a funny story either way. I don't know how it plays out, but he denied that this happened. I have no idea whether it's true or not. It's in a book, so I think they probably sourced it fairly well.

They would have had to, but I'm just going to read it from a Bloomberg source going across someone's ticker. Elon Musk once demanded to be made the CEO of Apple during discussions of a potential Tesla buyout according to a new book the surprising 2016 conversation is one of the details revealed in the upcoming book power play Tesla Elon Musk in the bed of the century by Wall Street Journal reporter Tim Higgins Apple CEO Tim Cook had called Musk to propose acquiring the electric car maker which was struggling financially ahead of the unveiling of the Model 3 so this is 2016 could have acquired him for a few tens of billions probably maybe a little higher um makes uh well who knows i guess i think apple was just at about a trillion uh they would have been under but they

would have had plenty of cash to do it and this was the time when their stock was kind of pressing on earnings multiple basis um so he called musk to propose a deal musk expressed his interest in the idea but had one condition telling cook quote i'm ceo cook at first thought musk meant that he wanted to remain ceo of tesla after the merger and said he was not opposed to the idea i can see that going down he's like yeah you can still run tesla i mean yeah i mean that's fine we'll think about it yeah yeah he's like uh you know no more i mean we got rules here i mean it's you know it's it's apple it's a real company uh all right then he said but when musk clarified that he expected to take cook's job as apple ceo cook responded quote fu and hung up according to the

new book what i mean that's i i've said it before i cannot wait for either the hbo documentary on tesla however it ends up if they run the world or bad it's gonna be a great documentary or a movie like a like a biopic type thing the drama is is amazing because everything that musk seems to do he takes it very personally and gets emotional and that scene itself would just be hilarious i mean who has the audacity to ask for old but then again he's a bold guy he's like yeah i you know i'm gonna you took this company to be the largest in the world you generated the most probably earnings in the history of the world maybe microsoft i don't know but you know i i don't know if you guys are doing it right i want that job yeah i don't i mean what a story bold uh

especially over the phone and this it'd be one thing if his like tesla wasn't doing too hot at the time yeah they're still i mean nowadays you think i mean the market kept uh 10 times less that's some hefty demands i know it would have been like in his position yeah oh yeah i mean And you're acquiring basically a company at the time that's hemorrhaging money. So they would be a negative to Apple's – I mean, it would be slight because Apple generates tens of billions in cash here and Tesla is burning a few billion. But, I mean, you're taking on a distressed asset at that point. Man. There's a world, though, where they buy them.

Which, you know, think about that. Buffett, this is the same time that Buffett's loading up on Apple, I think. Could have been a bit before. that that's a bit you know what happens if tim cook buys tesla for 50 billion he could have bought back apple's own stock well you know buffett could have been the largest share i mean that's just an interesting relationship buffett tim cook berkshire hathaway elon musk yeah that would have been interesting dynamics so many headlines so many clickbait headlines i think that's gonna do it unless you have anything else no that's it all right thanks again to eric for

coming on the show thank you for listening if you stayed all the way through uh this is a good time to probably announce that we are changing up the show format so i guess we can kind of try to explain it so we're going to do instead of three shows a week it's going to be two shows a week we're going to have a not so deep dive the ones that we typically have with ian and brad if you listen to those same show format we're gonna have those on tuesdays once a week once a week so they'll alternate each week and then on thursdays we're gonna have an interview kind of like how we do it now but it's going to be more company specific we're hoping to focus on finding experts on stocks someone who's pitching a stock it could be a short could be a long most likely it's a long

but so ours we we've been called since since we used to call it a deep dive people used to complain that it wasn't a deep dive it was kind of surface level these will be deep dives hopefully with an expert on the company ours will be us turning over a rock and we'll call those the not so deep dives yeah twice a week um or sorry not so deep dive once a week on tuesday hopefully starting next week from today when you're listening to this thursday we have an interview focused on but the thing is we hope you know it's going to be focused on one stock we've done that before and usually it's like with two or three stocks but we believe if we narrow it down to just one company more people will be excited to listen and you can give basically a 45 minute you know

platform or forum for someone that knows a stock well to talk about it. And hopefully people can learn by listening. All right. That's going to do it. Thanks again for listening. We are not financial advisors. Anything we say or discuss here on Chit Chat Money is not formal advice or recommendation. We are, however, general partners at Arch Capital. So clients may have positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. Thanks again. We'll see you next week. Bye.