Citation Needed - Alice Roosevelt

Episode Date: March 16, 2022

Alice Lee Roosevelt Longworth (February 12, 1884 – February 20, 1980) was an American writer and prominent socialite. She was the eldest child of U.S. president Theodore Roosevelt and the only child he had with his first wife, Alice Hathaway Lee. Longworth led an unconventional and controversial life. Her marriage to Representative Nicholas Longworth III, a Republican Party leader and 38th Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, was shaky, and her only child, Paulina, was from her affair with Senator William Borah. Our theme song was written and performed by Anna Bosnick. If you’d like to support the show on a per episode basis, you can find our Patreon page here.  Be sure to check our website for more details.

And so I said to her, well, are you sweating the garlic? Now what does she say? Well, she uses the stuff from the jar, man. No, I know. I know. I just speech this manage, but anyway. And you have the latest Kanye posts. I'm trying, man.

It's so many. That's fine. That's fine. We can fill with Britney photos. Noah got. Okay. Hey guys, what you doing? Oh, hey, see, so well, we figured this we're doing sort of like celebrity gossip episode

of the podcast about Alice Roosevelt that we would want to do our own research. Yes. And have backups. So, for instance, can anyone tell me who Pete Davidson is dating right now? I was checking. I am not sure. Okay, get on that. Get me rumors.

Get me anything you could do. Okay. Guys, guys, guys, guys, guys, I didn't choose Alice Roosevelt as some cheap celebrity gossip I chose her because she's an absolute powerhouse historical figure, wildly independent for her time at a great example of how women change their fate in face of the odds. You did? Yeah. Well, great.

So who do I send my nudes to then? Same thing we tell you every week, man, just throw them out. But I'm doing a dance in these. Still more now, more. Hello and welcome to Cytation Needed. The podcast where we choose a subject read a single article about it on Wikipedia and pretend we're experts. Because this is the internet, and that's how it works down. I'm Eli Bosnick and I'll be dishing up the hottest celebrity gossip from the turn of

the last century, but I'll need a cast of hard-nosed reporters ready to... ...take off the dirt. There's a lot of dick metaphors in reporting. First up, two hard-working men with their noses to the grindstone, Cecil Ann Noah. I have to keep my nose to the grindstone because my eyes stop working at 40s. When I just have a very large nose that I'd like to little now. And also joining us tonight, we have two celebrity debutants whose hijinks are in every London periodical. Tom Andy.

Okay, all I care about in the entire world right now is your accidental creation of a portmanteau of debutants and taunt to create the debut taunt. That is perfection. Actually. Also, if debut taunt balls were me and Tom in formal wear getting roasted and taunted, I will be out of my stuff. I've got great news for you. Before we begin tonight, I'd like to take a moment to thank our patrons.

Our patrons are the rich mommies, daddies and non-binary globbies that we can fall back on when times are tough, burying our faces and your silk and bosoms till trouble passes us by. So can you. And if you'd like to learn how to join their ranks, be sure to stick around to the end of the show. And with that out of the way, tell a Cecil, what person, place, thing, concept, phenomenon or event will we be talking about today, uh, Teddy

Roosevelt's daughter. All right. And Tom, you dug up the dirt on this day. Are you ready to give us the skinny? Let's go ask Alice. I think she'll know. So tell us, Tom, who was Alice Roosevelt? All right. For our live show in New York, I did an essay on FDR and I've had it in my head to follow up and do an essay on Teddy Roosevelt at some point as well. And I was headed there this week when purely by accident, my wife stumbled upon and pointed me to the life of Teddy's daughter, Alice Roosevelt. And the more I read about Alice, the more I realized that here is a character in every sense of the word that was so much larger than life that she nearly eclipsed the equally

mammoth personality of her notoriously celebrated father. Alice Roosevelt is one of those characters who seems to be constantly in possession of just enough rope to hang herself and who manages still to wiggle free from real responsibility. She was a presidential wild child and it just marvelously poorly behaved human being and I admire the unmitigated tamarity of her. It would be easy to dismiss Alice as perhaps a bit of a brat, but this is a woman whose hijinks influenced and swayed major elections in American politics. For all her faults and foibles, the sheer audacity with which she lived her life is at the

very least fascinating. All right. Nobody tell talk about Paris Hilton. It's too late for me to say nobody tell Eli that sometimes sheer audacity is enough. So sure at least that. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. How come Noah, I give a tiny little bit of backstri, everybody's like, so boo, boo, a Tom selects a topic like he's a food blogger, blowing off the dust of grandma's fucking recipe card box. And then he spends a chapter telling

us why pick Nana's waffle pie. And now it tastes like sunshine and growing up among the maples and for what anyone says I'm going to think man. Because I say it was poetry, Cecil with poetry. As whole. Elecely Roosevelt. It was born really good in February. On February 12th, 1884, just two days before the absolute bleakest moment in her father theater Roosevelt's life. I'll see so I don't care. Just two days after

giving birth to her daughter Alice's mother, also named Alice, took suddenly ill and died of an undiagnosed kidney failure. Just 11 hours earlier that day, Teddy's mother, also named Alice, took suddenly ill and died of an undiagnosed kidney failure. Just 11 hours earlier that day, Teddy's mother would die in the same house of Typoid fever. Peter Roosevelt's journal chronicles his despair with a page marking the day with a large, simple ex. And the single sentence quote, the light has gone out of my life. And quote, young Alice's life was not off to a particular early school.

She says, what? I mean, but it's 1884, right? Like so she's alive. I would say it was new. By the standards of the time, medium. Alice's father, Teddy Roosevelt, was so utterly crushed by the loss of his wife, Alice, that he never again spoke of her and would not allow for her to be named in his presence and omitted her from his autobiography.

Cool, healthy, good. Awesome. Baby Alice was referred to as baby Lee. A moniker she retained as she got older, frequently going by Mrs. L rather than Alice. Theodore, now bereft of wife and mother and with a two day old daughter, was far too distraught for playing the role of a single father in 1884. Instead, he left baby Alice with his sister Anna and he fucked off to his ranch out in North Dakota.

Tom, I know that the bereaved husband has a certain panache to it, but have you considered that Teddy Roosevelt was a bad dad who sucked? Yeah, I have 100% and I agree with that. Okay, but national parks, he invented, he invented Teddy bears, Teddy bears, that we have. Yeah, he's a shitty guy. He's a 100% that's correct. This is not a good day.

Yeah, it's not a good day. Teddy bears are all right. Teddy bears are okay though. Anna, who was affectionately referred to as Bami, took baby Alice in and raised her for two years until theater returned from his ranch based grieving sabbatical and got remarried. And now the had himself a woman for the child, Rearins. Alice was reunited with father Teddy, and she now had a stepmom, a woman named Edith Carrow.

Bami would remain a fixture in Alice's life, often acting as a buffer when shit got tense between Alice and her family. Oh, okay. So she served the same purpose that alcohol didn didn't heat family. I got you. Okay. Yeah. It tracks. It's very happy. I just love the idea of Alice walking around like, oh, yeah, no, I don't want to upset

that too much. You'll run off to his ranch. So he's ready to fuck someone new. Oh no. Or he could just drink and stay. Exactly. It's a useful solution. And things of the family were rather often tense. Alice was, by all accounts, spoiled with gifts, but was often given short shrifts when

it came to receiving time and attention from her father. Her relationship with Edith, her stepmom, was strained. Although Alice wrote a bunch of, you know, in hindsight, my stepmom didn't really owe me shit and busted her ass to love me anyway, kind of stuff in her autobiography that pair did not often get along. For her part, Edith once remarked of Alice's mom that if she had lived, she would have bored theodore to death, a comment that likely did not so well with house. Yeah, well, you know, kids always get so damn sensitive when you bring up the bright side

of their parents, deaths. There obviously would be bright sides. I mean, come on. When Alice was threatened with being forced to attend a boarding school for rich kids who don't behave, she said, quote, if you send me, I will humiliate you. I will do something that will shame you. I tell you I will." And quote, they did not send her.

Yeah. I mean, if you saw the mime, she was definitely doing when she said that. In 1901, Theodore Roosevelt became president after McKinley was shot and killed by an anarchist at the Pan American Exposition, this assassination put Teddy in the big chair, and Alice could not have been happier with suddenly discovering she was the president's daughter. In fact, to say that she embraced her new role as a socialite would not really do her response justice.

Like her father, Alice had an intense need for public attention and adoration. So much so that she sometimes resented the amount of attention her father received for being the actual president of the United States, saying, quote, he wants to be the bride at every wedding, the corpse at every funeral and the baby at every Christmas and quote, the court. Yes. did not the you will just, okay, all right. And while no one would dispute the Teddy love the spotlight, Alice was enraptured by it. In the 15 months after making her debut into society, Alice attended 407 dinners, 350 balls and 300 parties.

She's just got. So if you're not doing the math in your head as you drive to work or whatever, that averages out to more than two of those things per day. 407 dinners, 350 balls and 300 parties sounds like a 57 sequel to a Hugh Grant series. That's how many movies it takes to capture all of Andy McDowell's face. So I get there. They're like guys from the age of 40 to 50 who are like, good joke. And everyone else is like, what? And Alice was kind of the parents, Hillton of the early 1900s, but with vastly more

staying power. For those of you who are too young to remember, Paris Hilton was a hotel ares who became famous for being vapid and cruel about six months after making a yawn inducing sex tape before fading back into the stagnant cesspool of banality from which she briefly emerged. Now, Alice was also briefly in the limelight for sexual escapades, in her case, unfounded and untrue rumors of her participation in an orgy at a mansion in Rhode Island. Though the orgy story is bullshit, Alice's behavior skirted the boundaries of decorum. She smoked cigarettes in public, rode in cars with men, unheard of for a respectable lady to do at the time.

She stayed out late partying. She placed bets with bookies and I love this detail. She also had a pet snake named Emily Spinach, which is adorable. See, this is why we got to let me do the essays, okay? If I was doing this, the orgy is recorded, historical fact, like Charlize the wrong killing her dad and Christopher Wacken killing Natalie Wood. Well, the second one. But honestly, by the standards that they show is beating

me into it. This point, I feel like I liked this woman just because she didn't take her pet snake over a waterfall and a bear. But she would. She would. She Natalie. Sometimes Alice would go to the halls of actual fucking Congress, then just do prank war. She imagined in 1908, she amused herself by, and I am not kidding, putting tax on the seat of a sitting congressman who upon doing that actual sitting, lept up, quote, like the burst of a bubble on the fountain, like the bolt from the blue, like the ball from

the cannon. And, quote, do you guys not look at the chair for just a brief second before you sit down on it? I went to elementary school. Yeah. I look. In fact, Alice's antics were so frequent and well known that Teddy, after threatening to throw Alice out the window and exesperation, told his friend of her quote, I can either run

the country or I can attend to Alice, but I cannot possibly do that. Well, until you rehired your living help in the form of a wife, you weren't doing either 10. He's being very sad at a ranch. He's sad at a ranch. I don't know why I'm doing this like defending the thing. He's the best. In 1905, William Howard Taft, then the Secretary of War, did we get a woo for Taft?

William Howard Taft. Yeah. The only president and Supreme Court justice in history. Both. Okay. Yeah. We got a woo for Taft. Fuck yeah.

He was also the Secretary of War. He led a delegation of 23 congressmen, seven senators, a team of diplomats, officials and businessmen on a mission to Japan, Hawaii, China, the Philippines and Korea. For some reason, and I am hard pressed not to a mange that it wasn't because those places are very nicely far away from the White House. Ellis also went on this diplomatic mission. She fairly immediately courted controversy by jumping into the ship's swimming pool fully clothed. Years later, when Alice was in her 80s, Bobby Kennedy

actually gave her some shit about this event, noting that it was outrageous behavior for the president's daughter to which Alice replied that it would have only been outrageous if she had removed her clothes. Yeah, not adding, dude, you killed Marilyn Monroe. Shut the fuck up. had removed her clothes. Not adding, dude, you killed Marilyn Monroe. Shut the fuck up. Hey, Bobby Kennedy, if you're listening there, wherever you are, if you're worried about someone's shitty kid fucking up their legs. That's bad news.

Now, that stunt caught the attention of Nicholas Longworth, the third, a Republican from the House of Representatives in longtime member of the same social circles as the Roosevelt's. The relationship between Alice and Nicholas took hold on the diplomatic tour and the pair became engaged in 1905 after returning to the U.S. For his part, Longworth was 14 years older than Alice and was known as a player around DC. Nonetheless, the two were married the next year in February of 1906 in a wedding with over 1000 guests at the wedding.

Alice cut the cake with a sword she borrowed from a military aid moments before. All right. Well, I don't know about you, but I need some smelling salts to recover from that level of scandal. So while I find a couch to fainting on, we're gonna take a little break for some apropos of nothing. Mr. President? Yes, Jenkins? Your-your daughter is here to see you.

Very good, Senator, and then... What's up, Jenkins? Not Jack! Oh, oh. Gotta be faster than, Jenkins. Yes, ma'am. Darling, I have told you about striking Jenkins and the testicles each time you see him, now. First of all, it's called a fucking nut, Jack. Second of all, he needs to give fucking good, you know what I mean?

Right, Alice. This is precisely why I was hoping to speak to you. check second of all he needs to get fucking good you don't mean right Alice this is precisely why I was hoping to speak to you your behavior of late has brought the family no small measure of scandal what the fuck did I do all right while there was the incident with a billiard ball at the Georgian ball I said dark and and you told the herald that you wanted to quote make senator Senator Willoughby's cheeks clap. And quote, what does that even mean? Trust me, dad, you don't even want to know about that.

Look, Alice, far be it for me to quench a fiery spirit, but this is too far. Why must you be so rebellious? Well, if I'm being honest, dad, it's because it's because I miss you. Miss me? Yeah, for so long, I had only myself to count on and now that you're the figure of public attention, it feels like you've gone away from me and all over. Oh, my dear Alice. Father, there's one, there's one more thing. Yes, my dear.

Not Jack. Oh, gotcha. All right, gotta go. I gotta go fucking ride a fucking horse to the fucking library in Congress. Oh, very good darling. Very good. And we're back. When we left off, Alice Roosevelt was awesome far before it was legal for women to do that. What happened next time? Well, in 1912, Alice found herself torn between loyalty to her father and his party, the Bull Moose party and her husband. Oh, I thought it was a Republican. I know. I know. I just kidding. Alice wasn't torn at all.

She backed her father so much so that she appeared on stage with the bull moose candidate running against her own husband. When her husband lost by 105 votes, Alice joked that she was responsible for at least a hundred of the votes that cost her husband the election. And to a lot of people nowadays, the Bull Moose Party proves that a third party candidate is a viable choice in a presidential election, a century later. No, no, no, no downsides whatsoever. All right. Now I know what you're thinking. Wow. She sounds like maybe not the most supportive

partner. Well, she also just straight up had multiple very poorly hidden affairs throughout the course of her marriage to Nicholas, including a longstanding affair with Senator William Bora, who knocked her up. Ellis thought the whole thing was a riot and she toyed with the idea of naming her daughter Deborah or Deborah to pull fun as a situation. That's pretty good. Well, she was swayed into finally naming her daughter, Paulina, according to a family friend, quote, everybody called her Aurora, Bora Alice. So,

It's fine to get sure these antlers are the latest fashion. And I should wear them to the party. Oh, yeah. And he trusts me. The world needs more prank based kid naming. That is an underserved market. Now, eventually Teddy Roosevelt had to relinquish his claim on the presidency, which meant that Alice had to move out of the White House, which she

was not thrilled about. So she buried a voodoo doll of the new First Lady, Nelly Taft, in the White House front lawn. She made such a nuisance of herself that the Tafts had to ban her from returning to the White House even as a guest. No, I get it. Until recently, Melania would go back there to take your annual shit every year. No, no. No, no.

No, no. No, no. No, no. As unlikely as that sounds, she would eventually also be banned from re-entering the White House by the Wilson administration after telling a body joke. And in response to being banned from the White House by Woodrow Wilson, Alice worked to lobby against the entry of the United States into the League of Nations. That's what people did before Yelp reviews.

Right. Yeah. Sure. Less efficient. I don't know, setting out the crippled main vehicle of world peace over a poop joke that didn't get as much credit as you thought it deserved is sadly something that I can absolutely relate to. She is a petty, petty woman. It's kind of awesome. At this point, the Great Depression struck an Alice, former socialite and presidential bad girl started making cigarette commercials and giving people even more shit. During the 1940 presidential campaign, she remarked that she'd quote, rather vote for Hitler

than vote for Franklin for a third term, end quote. And while it may sound like she didn't like her cousin Franklin, I don't think that's what she was about because she compared Thomas Dewey, who was running against Franklin to the quote, bridegroom on the wedding cake, end quote. And I guess that must have been a real zinger in 1944 because like a more than hit. Yeah, it must have been because that comment and the image stuck somehow and do we lost two consecutive presidential election bids endorsing Hitler doesn't make her sound like she hates her cousin. It makes her sound like she wouldn't have to shell out any

money for a flag at the United right rally. Yep. And hating your political opponent so much that you end up supporting a literal Nazi is still a proud American. Legacy. Alice's daughter, Polina, didn't fare too well. And not much is really written that reflects too keenly on the maternal instincts or parental abilities of Alice. Paulina married a guy and they had a daughter, Joanna, and that means that Alice was now a grandmother and that sounds nice, but the guy died pretty much right away and then Paulina

overdosed on sleeping pills and died, leaving the care and feeding of Joanna to Alice. Despite not having been too interested in momming at a very high level, Alice took to Joanna quite readily. The two were very close and Alice was described by her friend as having, quote, been a wonderful father and mother to Joanna, mostly father, and quote. So she fucked off to a ranch without the kid when times got tough. Alice remained politically connected all of her very long life, making sometimes strange and contradictory friends across both ends of the political spectrum.

She had a very unlikely friendship with Bobby Kennedy, despite holding herself to be a lifelong Republican. The Kennedy's, in fact, were a source of amusement to her so much that she claims that they taught her, quote, how amusing and attractive Democrats could be. And quote, her friendship with Bobby Kennedy was all the more unlikely because Bobby Kennedy was known to be somewhat thin skinned. And Alice was, as you might have guessed, all too happy to poke at Bobby every chance she got.

Yeah. To be fair, his skin would have to be really thick to have stopped that bullet. She's. Oh, right. fair, his skin would have to be really thick to have stopped that bullet. She's, well, it also the other 12 bullets from, oh, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands, hands Bobby was assassinated in 1968. Alice supported her close friend, Richard Nixon. Nixon and Alice were so close, in fact, that Nixon was a pole bearer at Alice's daughter's funeral.

This friendship ended with the Watergate scandal, reminding us all that there was a time in history when consequences mattered. It's gotten so bad that we're pining for the days when at least like, and the ex president's daughter wouldn't hang out with you anymore anymore was a consequence for wrongdoing that. During Nixon's resignation, he made the mistake of quoting from Teddy Roosevelt's diary, saying, quote, only if you've been to the lowest valley. Can you know how great it is to be on the highest mountain top? End quote. is to be on the highest mountain top." And quote, borrowing from her father's journal during his scandalous, shameful resignation

infuriated Alice, who spat and cursed at the television in rage and disgust. And despite the loss of her friendship, Nixon would later call her quote, the most interesting conversationalist of the age. No one, no matter how famous, could ever outshine her." And quote, just a sad face Nixon having a resort to leaving a tack on his own chair. President Carter, the only president she ever declined to meet in her lifetime, wrote of her quote, she had style. She had grace and she had a sense of humor that kept generations of political

newcomers to Washington wondering which was worse, to be skewered by her, were to be ignored by her. End quote. Words which are themselves pretty fucking gracious considering he was the only president she chose to actually ignore. Yeah. I'm just walking by her house in Washington doing prat calls. Is she looking at me? I'm shitting myself. I shot myself. Alice, Alice is shabby. I'm present.

To everywhere. My socks are wet. Alice. On February the 20th, 1980. Alice Roosevelt died at the age of 96 and she was a fucking treasure. I'm gonna leave the essay with a few quotes from Alice Roosevelt that demonstrate further some of that humor, wit, and irreverence that she was known for. To Senator Joseph McCarthy, who had a party said, here's my blind date, I'm going to call you Alice. She replied to him, Senator McCarthy, you are not going to call me Alice. The truckman, the trash man, and the policeman on my block may call me Alice, but you may not.

Uh huh, damn. To Lyndon Johnson, who you may recall was a total fucking purve. Alice told him she wore wide brimmed hats around him to prevent him from kissing her. In commenting on a sex scandal between a senator and a woman half his age, she scoffed quote, you can't make us who flayerized twice. But her most famous quote was this that I will leave you with. If you can't say something good about someone sit right here by me, she had that embroidered on a pillow. She did. And if you had to summarize what you've learned in one sentence, Tom, what would it be?

If your parents were distant or imperfect, you can indulge in a lifetime of selfish immature whims and blame it on not getting enough hugs. Oh, there you go. I'm a disaster. You can go on and on. And are you ready for the quiz? Absolutely.

All right, Tom. We learned about the bull moose party earlier, which party would be the most likely in today's highly polarized political landscape? A Marjorie Taylor Greene's Barbie Q party. Matt Gaetz's girlfriend's high school graduation party. Oh, see. Such McConnell's retirement party or party to an insurrection. Oh, oh, okay, these all hit pretty close to home.

These hurt a little bit. I'm excited to see see see see is well, I was going to get a season like it's the one I want the most, but it's not. I'm going to get this be it's it's it's that gates is girlfriend's high school graduation party. That kind of felt like I knew that. He's so close to dead Mitch book. He's used to hands are turning. I mean, if you said we will have a retirement party.

That's right. So that will technically be you said we will have a retirement party for that, right? So that will technically be, well, we'll have a party. Well, it'll be Mitch McConnell's retirement party. All right, Tom, Jimmy Carter, dude, to deserve so much historical, Iyer. Hey, he's actually a self-made man. He's the first in his family to graduate from fucking high school. B, he dropped out of a highly successful career in the Navy to save his family's fucking peanut farm.

How successful can a career in the Navy be? See? He supported some rights in the governor's race in Georgia in 1966 or D, he's fancy, shmancy Nobel Peace Prize. Okay, I feel like that's a trick question because none of those things deserve. Is this a trick question? It is a trick question. All of the none of these none of all of these.

That's it. E being a shitty at the non-presidency. I'm a president. Okay. I think it was a Democrat. It's not all the option being but he's a Democrat. I like Jimmy Carter. Okay.

So I have a question for you to close things up. What amazing fact about Alice Roosevelt would it be the biggest shame not to at least mention during this episode? Hey, she was such a fashion icon that there's a shade of blue named after her. Yes. B, when her dad told her she couldn't smoke cigarettes under his roof, she started smoking them on top of the roof. She just climb up on the white house, by the way.

C. Over the roof. Yeah, exactly. That's work. C, after getting a second mastectomy in her 80s, she started referring to herself as Washington's only topless octogenarian. Probably not actually. D, she openly declared herself to be a hedonist and a pagan and repeatedly dismissed Christianity

as quote, sheer voodoo. Why? Nice. Not paganism. No. Well, those are clearly all correct answers. And they're all like little snippets that were, I just didn't know how to weave them into the narrative.

So why they made it here? Because they're so awesome facts about her Well is correct Noah is announced that she's our part of our brand. She's one of us. So no wind There you go, and it has been way too long since our last heat that so I think he should do the next all right Well for Cecil Noah Tom and Heath I'm you live, I was nicknick. Thank you for hanging out with us today We'll be back next week and by then, Heath will be an expert on something else. Between now and then, you can listen to Tom and Cecil over in Cochland of Business and you can listen to a Heath Noah and myself on a variety of podcasts because we don't

have day jobs. And if you'd like to help keep this show going, to keep us from those day jobs, you can make a prep explanation at patreon.com slash citation pod or leave us a five-star review everywhere you can. And if you'd like to get in touch with us, check out past episodes, connect with us on showstream media, or check the show notes. Be sure to check out citation pod.com. Alice, I know you and I haven't always gotten along, but I hope you know here at the end that I always respect the kill. And Richard, I hope you know. And I was so, so... Oh, Alice, I couldn't quite hear you. What was that?

Not Jack! Oh gosh! Fuck yeah! I did a fucking war criminal! Now get out of my fucking house! Out! Right in the water gate. Fuck yeah, I did a fucking war criminal now get out of my fucking house out right right in the water gate