Citation Needed - David Koresh [True Crime Special]

Episode Date: March 20, 2019

David Koresh (/kəˈrɛʃ/; born Vernon Wayne Howell; August 17, 1959 – April 19, 1993) was the American[2][3] leader of the Branch Davidians sect,[4] believing himself to be its final prophet.   Our theme song was written and performed by Anna Bosnick. If you’d like to support the show on a per episode basis, you can find our Patreon page here.  Be sure to check our website for more details.  

So the virus changes your DNA. Oh, it sounds super boring. It's not super boring. Now, I'm just gonna keep playing this. Cecil! Cecil! One second, one second, one second. Alright, hey guys, what's up?

What's up? What's going on? Why are you playing a cell phone ring at Eli over industrial speakers? Also, what is that thing? It's my compound. No, no, it's not, not for long. No.

Oh, because we're doing David Kuresh on this week's show. That's the, yep, yep. Eli, you realize that this is, I'm also in here, is he, Oh, oh, oh, I should have known. Eli and he, you guys know that David Corressionist followers all burned to death at a hellish inferno, right? Wait, what?

They then just start a super cool compound and have all the wives they want, including the number zero. If that was how many they wanted. No, that's what I've been trying to tell you. Now, now get out of there or you're gonna wish the ATF was here. Fine, no, I already quit the compound. I had it before you said that, I had quit. Not me, you're gonna have to burn this motherfucker

and then lie to the American people about it for decades, Cecil. I mean, we didn't not see this coming, so... That's true. Wild, wild country motherfucker. That's the one cult Eli. They're all the same. Hello and welcome. The citation needed, the podcast where we choose a subject, read a single article about it on Wikipedia, and pretend we're experts. Because this is the internet and that's how it works now.

I'm Heath, and I'll be hosting this very special episode about a tragic issue in this country, law enforcement killing white people. He's a sped up. Very serious. Bad start. And I'm joined by a panel of persecuted experts. Jesus Christ. First up, we have two men who always shoot first,

Tom and Cecil. No, I shoot fast. No, and first, too. Yeah. That's not good in bed. I can't help myself. I love heroin. Some would say too much.

You're sick. You're sick. Great. And we'll be asking questions later, like literally. We will. Also joining me tonight are two men who always shoot first. No, I'm not. I get it when it comes for Lucinda but at two he ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Cecil, what person place, thing, concept, phenomenon or event?

Are we going to be talking about today? Today, we're going to be learning about legal child rapist and bullet some David Kuresh. And, you got to tell which side I land on. That's what I think. And Tom, white persecution is clearly an issue very close to your heart. Are you ready to enlighten us? I thought the point of this. And by the way, see if you can work the word fire into your answer about what it is.

Let's say this is the 26th anniversary of this event. I guess you could say I'm on fire. It's called a dammit. You set me up for that. There it is. That's nailed it. Good. All right. So who was my pun? David Kuresh. fire to tell the dammit you said that. There it is. There it is. That's nailed it. All right.

So who was my pun? David Kresh. All right. David Kresh was the leader of the branch divisions in Waco, Texas, where some absolutely crazy shit went down, most of which is still hotly contested. And while Kresh is often thought of as a suicidal crazy cult leader, that may not be the case. And regardless, it's nowhere near the whole story. All right. Guys, I never thought I'd say this, but we are in my wheelhouse. Are we? You know, a lot of careful study about the branch divisions. You know, no, no,

no. All right. Well, let's see if we can help. David Kuresh was born in August of 1959, and his OG name was actually Vernon Howell. And that name is extremely, extremely terrible. So he later changed it and I won't even use it because it sounds like I'm doing a fucking essay on the host of Masterpiece Theater or something. I'm calling him David. No, man, I read enough comic books. Vernon Howell is a super villain name. I've already decided how this ends, man, I read enough comic books. Vernon Howell is a super villain name. I've already decided how this ends, man.

All right. David's mother, Bonnie Sue Clark, was only 14 when David was born. His father, Bobby Wayne Howell was five years older than Bonnie and wasn't exactly ready to be a father. And we know this because he did because their teenagers named Bonnie Sue and Bobby Wayne. Is that how we do that? Yes. But also because he ditched Bonnie Sue Clark while she was pregnant and ran off with and married a different presumably at that moment, less pregnant teenager. And he never returned or met his son.

A Bonnie needed somewhere to go. And naturally she moved in with a new boyfriend who turned out to be a violent alcoholic. I know this, I know this. David A.R. White's gonna teach this kid how to love Jesus, right? I bet there's like a direct correlation between your likelihood of being killed in a redneck gun cult and the number of first names your parents have, right?

Ooh, graph it out. Graph it out. No one ever joins my graph it out, chance. I'm a David was four, Bonnie left her abusive boyfriend and then she also left her son. She left David in the care of early and Clark Bonnie's mother. No word on who she left the boyfriend. Early in raised David for three years until Bonnie returned married now to a carpenter named Roy Halterman. And in 1966, Bonnie and Roy had a son named Roger who would grow up not to matter enough to have a blue link on his name in Wikipedia, but

at least he had a family and they reportedly got along well. David's getting passed around like an ugly heirloom clock. No one really wants it, but they're all too afraid to throw it away, you know. David's childhood wasn't super great. I mean, he was dyslexic, which made school very difficult for him. He was placed in special education classes. He struggled socially as well. It was nicknamed Bernie. That wasn't super great.

And he was also nicknamed Mr. Retardo, which was very much worse than Bernie got. Don't miss. Okay, forget it. Tom, you just keep going. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry. He was bullied. He was bullied frequently.

And it even got so far as he was gangraped by group of boys before he dropped out of school in the 11venth grade. He described his childhood as lonely, evidently misspelling unbelievably tragic. I'm sorry. Oh yeah, my childhood was the worst. You know, had trouble reading. People called me verney. I got gang raped. The usual child. Yeah, it's usual when you got a Lord of the flies. Tech, you know, I mean, I don't mean to parse this, but like gang rape is a lot of things, but lonely. Okay. Speaking of the camaraderie of gang rape, Jesus Christ segway. Can you tell us how David crash was similar to Jesus?

That's how many words that Segway did work. Well David took up carpentry and also much like Jesus rock and roll. All right. I'm sure he loves it. He left for LA for a hot minute to try his hand at being a rock star. That didn't work because it's fucking stupid. And that never works, by the way. And so we returned to Texas, where at 22, David impregnated a 15 year old girl.

Now, none of the articles I read or the documentary I watched mentioned anything else about this 15 year old girl. So probably everything worked out great there. It's right, right. Or the kid has just been biting her time practicing her sword play. So one day, wiggling her big toe. Yeah. Beatrix kiddo just shows up in Waco with a Hanzo sword. FBI is like, Oh, shit. Okay. Uh, great. That is that's freebie. Go inside, lady. We're gonna murder you if it doesn't work out, but good luck. I know. This is the point where David was born again and joined the seventh day Adventists. That

is one way to dip out on your kids. Now, I didn't know anything about the seventh day Adventist, but I think a brief detour would be useful here because I assumed that these guys are just Christians with like a weekly candy calendar, distressingly very little calendar involved with these Adventists. The seventh day Adventists are a Protestant Christian denomination that celebrates Saturday as a Sabbath since that's the seventh day. And more importantly, is absolutely fucking bonkers with the idea of the second coming of Jesus, which I think is going to happen just any old time now, right? Now, maybe actually, after Jesus returns, Satan is supposed to take over along with his fallen angels, and then the right just pop up to heaven, whether he's like Netflix and

Chiller, whatever, for about a thousand years, after which Jesus, double plus super returns again, and then the wicked are all turned to ash, and the right just keep beach houses in Malibu, and now they're all totally in charge. The Seventh-day Adventists think all of this, then the wicked are all turned to ash and the righteous keep beach houses in Malibu and now they're all totally in charge The Seventh-day Adventists think all of this by the way could be happening Right now Yeah, they've been Pretty sure of that since the first time they predicted the end of the world and started their religion in 1843. Yeah. Yeah.

They better move their timeline up. There's less beach front every year. You come back, you come back in a thousand years. The only thing that's made left is that fucking plastic raft in the middle of the ocean full of garbage. All right. So David is now born again and he's totally keeping his eyes peeled for Jesus who could be right around the corner.

And while he's going through this whole spiritual awakening, he also gets like crazy infatuated with the minister's daughter. And while this might seem little nuts in his defense, he was totally praying about this when he looked at the Bible and he saw a passage from Isaiah, which said, quote, no one should want for her mate. An argument which he took to the girl's father was like see Jesus told me I could bone your daughter and then the pastor threw him out not to be dissuaded David continued to pursue the young lady until the pastor booted him from the congregation entirely.

That seems like a pretty good strategy though. I mean saying Jesus told me I need to fuck your daughter to fundamentalist wackos is bound to work some of the time, right? Spoiler and numbers. Yeah, no, but if it works too much, you end up with way cross Georgia. So you know, don't abuse it. All right. So he got kicked out of the seventh day Adventists for being too crazy. That's actually pretty impressive. Where's he going next to find some more high school girls who stay the same age? Yes, they do.

Well, 1982 David moved to Waco, Texas and he joined the branch Davidian church. A David formed a band and moved into the Mount Carmel Center and he used music to recruit others into the branch divisions. He tried to form his own record company, but he gave up on that too because that was also stupid. And he instead decided that he had the gift of prophecy. Man, who did the thought that sucked at other stuff would be so closely correlated with later learning to talk to God?

Right? He's rocking out on stage. All the laser throwing their purity rings and promise panties up there, Adam. Chastity belt. Right at this time. He also had an affair with Lois Rodin, the widow of the founder of the branch to Visions who was both the current leader

and also in her late 60s. So power move respect. Yeah, she's in her late 60s. Any power moves and she's gonna break a hip. I'm gonna. That's good. And he also claimed that God told him in a prophecy that he was supposed to father a child with this woman and that that child was going to be the chosen one, which made very little

sense to me until I thought about it for a second. And then I remembered what sex had must have been like in Texas. Yeah, they all thought she had a fossilized egg up there. A lois allowed David to begin teaching his message, which he called the serpents root. And this caused a stir in the church and began the beef between David and lowest's son, George. George felt threatened by David's influence since he assumed that he was supposed to be the next one in line for leader of church.

And he probably felt at least a little bit weird out by the guy trying to impregnate his post metapausal mom. Hey, George, how's it going? Let me tell you, getting your mom pregnant is hard work. Someone's gonna do it. The finger sandwiches, can I have one of those? You don't want those? No.

See, this feels like a training montage you should fast forward through. You know what I'm saying? Shit. You do you see so much of me. It's like, George, it's like, hey man, are you putting You do you see so George is like, hey man, are you putting chicken eggs inside my mom? And come yeah, yeah, I was

coming to chicken. I was doing a training montage. I was grabbing the chickens. I had an idea. Soon Rocky is a mother clocker. Chicken buradly. is a mother clocker. Chicken boo, Radley. Not a man. You're a chicken. No, that's right. This is when things start to get really bizarre. David announces at this point that God wants him to take a wife. So he marries his first wife, Rachel Jones. And somehow and I'll be damned if I can understand how this calmed the fomenting division that was forming in the church between David and George Rodin, but only for a short time. And fearing that he would lose his majority support to take over leadership, George Rodin forced David and his followers from Mount Carmel Center at gunpoint.

Yeah, I mean, they're in Texas, though, isn't everything done at gunpoint? That's a fair point. Show me your table here. Yeah. All right. David about 25 of his followers set up a makeshift camp in Palestine, Texas. That's no shit. About 90 miles from Waco.

I love that. Definitely just went there because it was called Palestine. Absolutely. 100%. And they were living in buses and tents for about two years. And during this time, David began preaching and recruiting new members to live in his fucking squalor town, drawing new members from Australia and the UK, Israel and California. David actually traveled at this point to Israel and he claimed to have had a vision there

that he was the modern day Cyrus, which I looked up because I didn't know that was. And he's credited to be the pagan leader who helped fulfill the divine plan that allowed the Jews to return to Israel from their ex-Island Babylon. And while none of that makes any sense to me, this evidently convinced David that his place of martyrdom would be the Mount Carmel Center in Waco, Texas. The birthplace of Steve Martin. That's right. It's all coming together, everybody. Is it really? Yes. All right.

Now, even though David and his Mary band were still living rough on some garbage land in Texas at this point, David had more followers than George wrote. And David wanted to return to Waco because of the whole prophecy thing. And George wanted to get rid of David because of the whole power dynamic with his mom thing. And so, and this might be my favorite thing that I've ever written. George challenged David to a resurrection fight. I am not even kidding. This is a true thing. George challenged him to a resurrection fight and did dug up an old lady and demanded that David have a resurrection off with him. Like first like they would both go at the same dead lady for Spoon on three. Is it okay? One two. Fuck. All right. She's alive. That was me. No,

that was me. Two dead. Yeah, you need two dead ladies. Obviously. Well, no, you got to isolate the variable though. Now, right, David. No, David has to dig up his own dead lady. Clearly interesting. What David did instead is he went to the authorities and he was like, oh, man, there's a guy who's mad that I keep trying to impregnate his elderly mom. And so he wants to raise the dead to prove that he should be in charge. And so we dug up a corpse. The cops were like, we're going to need some pictures of that shit.

And so David and seven of his buddies, they grabbed guns and they tried like sneaky style to get a selfie with the corpse. And they were caught by Rodin instead. And then they had a gun fight where Rodin was wounded and crushing his friends were all arrested for attempted murder. Uh, Pixar didn't happen. That would go on to be the central tenant of the police motto and Waco Texas. They're at the resurrection fight and starts making out with the course because he's a neck romancer.

Oh, I'm saying. Yeah. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. I just love the thought of some police and especially like desperately leaving through this giant binder or whatever. Yo, I don't think we even have a code number for this one, but here we go.

Here we go. Wait, we actually do. It's called a Ted Cruz raising. That's weird. Okay. Here we go. Yeah. Wait, we actually do. It's called a Ted Cruz raising. That's weird. Okay. We got it. Okay. So, yeah, fun times, free country.

Were any of them being detained, Tom? Pressure's friends all played not guilty by reason of, we were just trying to prove we dug up a corpse. And this was, that's not even, we're not even kidding. And this, they was Texas. So they were all acqu we're not even kidding. And this, they was Texas. So they were all acquitted like that worked. They all, they all, they all, they all, they all, they all, and David's trial ended in a mistrial.

And so all these guys went home. And George Rodin, he later murdered a man named Wayman Adair with an axe after Wayman declared that he was the true Messiah. And then Rodin was sent to an insane asylum. The taxes on Mount Carmel Center went unpaid by Rodin because he was busy being a crazy murderer. Kuresh bought the taxes and eventually he gained control of ownership of Mount Carmel Center and the whole branch to Vidion Sect.

Okay. Uh, this sounds like the stage is set. But before we get into all the details that distinguish this from every other property transaction in Texas history, we'll take a quick break for some operapoe of exactly what we've been talking about actually. Paster Johnson? David, David, come in. How can I help you? Uh, Paster, I don't know how to tell you this. I have had a vision from God.

Praise be, David. Tell me about it. Tell me all about it. So the Lord has called on me. He's called on me to just absolutely destroy your daughter's fun box. My daughter's what now? Fun box, what?

But Jingo, whatever you wanna call it. I was reading the Bible and I said, Lord, what is my purpose? And I sure enough, when I looked down, it was like God, just whispered in my ear, you need to you need to fill that dick glove Just fill it, you know David David. Let me stop you here. I think I know I know I was skeptical myself I thought really God like having lunch in her pie corner and the Holy Spirit It just answered so bright and so true in my heart like you are the mayo in that bacon sandwich, you know? Please stop, please.

So I'm here to ask you, no, to tell you, would you bless me making a deal with the banker as hard as I can? No, nope, nope, no. Banana basket. Okay, we're back. Alright, so just to recap, a guy who only fucks tweens and grandmas started a double-wide cargo post. I want a resurrection contest by TKO. I guess. And then despite being a known mong enthusiast, he purchased a second cult from the US government.

And that was in charge of a large group of heavily armed crazy people in Texas. So Tom, uh, what happens next? They live happily ever after. That's three camp ever. That's amazing. Very not close. This is the point of which David Kresh is actually officially created. Now remember, he was born with a severely terrible name of Vernon Howell. He likely changed that shit to David Kuresh, which is a reference, obviously, to David, the biblical king. Their denomination was named after and Kuresh, which is a reference to Cyrus. So taking the name David Kuresh, was his linguistic claim to be a direct descendant of the biblical

king David, which Wikipedia describes as a Messianic figure carrying out a divinely commissioned errand. Yeah, right. Like you said, like if you translate this from Bible to nerd, this would be like changing your name to John Luke spider-me. Yeah. They were a dividends. They were going to go with with koreshians, but that sounds like a race of lizards from or fantasy novels.

So they just skip them. Or the biggest best of secrets. Or Kanye's kids. Yeah. Yeah. Keeping up with the chureshians. All right, now that he was firmly established as the head of the branch to videos,

I guess God was comfortable giving David some more commands. And as you might imagine, one of those commands involved him being encouraged to have basically unlimited wives, one of those commands involved him being encouraged to have basically unlimited wives, 140 of them, actually, from which he was also commanded to father, and this is terrifying 24 children, gross. It's a weird selection process. Yeah.

Not it, not it. Duck, that's a duck duck goose that gets wheel real weird. It's duck duck goose. Fuck fuck goose. Within Mount Carmel Center, he established a doctrine of the House of David, which basically meant he got to marry and have sex with any of the women in their church, including at least one 13 year old girl. And while that's fucking awful, and it is, it's fucking disgusting, what is important to note at this point is that it wasn't illegal in Texas since the girl's parents consented

and Texas is a 14th century backwater. I have to be that guy, but this dude is really stealing from Joseph Smith's playbook at this point. I mean, if he went full golden plates, I would get out my shenanigans for him right there. Now allegations of child abuse were being investigated over a six month period by the Texas child protective services, but no charges were filed and no abuse was documented and no evidence of abuse was ever produced. And this is important because authorities would later claim as public justifications after the fact for the rate amount carmal that children there were being abused.

Yeah, this is the same state that said it's cool to marry a 13 year old. So let's not solely rely on their judgment, okay? That's a good policy. And this is where the whole thing goes completely tits up. Oh, right now, that's when that happens. We're about a 13 year old wife. This is the line now. This is it. The 13 year old bride and the gun cult is something problematic finally about the government about the story. Well, the dividends, they were apocalyptic sect, right, which meant that they were living in a way that reflected their belief that we were all living in the end times.

And in the book of Revelation, there's a reference to the seven seals and Kresh believed that he had divine knowledge of the seals, the opening of which would bring about the end of days. Do you have to open those in order? Like do you go with grumpy first, then happy, sleazy, bashful, sleazy, don't be a nendok when you open them? The sleazy steel is the fucking worst. Now, Kuresh also was not a pacifist, right?

His church made a good deal of money in their role as licensed federal firearms dealers. And they stockpiled weapons, quoting a line from scripture where Jesus admonishes his followers, quote, but now if you have a purse take it and also a bag. And if you don't have a sword sell your cloak and buy one. Brech took this to mean that he had a biblical responsibility to be prepared to defend his flock if that apocalypse he's waiting for began. Fun fact, by the way, that line is a great way to fuck with your religious grandma

who's never read the Bible. Just do it. I wonder what your peaceful rabbi said. Oh, what? Crazy. Yeah, religious zelchry and unlimited access to firearms. We know, Tom, you said this was in Texas. All right. I get it. I get it. I get it. But, but to be super clear, what we have right now is an insane person who thinks he's speaking to guy with a shitload of guns. And also if I recall correctly, some hand grenades. Yeah. I think we also have a failure to communicate.

So, um, yeah, when does this story turn into the rail shooter that I know it turns into? It feels like now. It feels like it's going to be now. All right, well, the government got word. The correctionist followers may have some fully automatic weapons on the property of Mount Carmel Center. And the church, probably because of its single personality leadership and unusual sexual practices, freaked out the government. And so the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, which which is weird decided a raid mount carmel center on february the twenty eight nineteen ninety three that raid was ostensibly to serve a warrant to search for illegal weapons but

previous discussions had been had where officials were invited by the church leaders to come to mount carmel center and look around for anything illegal and it's important to realize at this point that everything that followed everything that followed here stemmed from an attempt to search for guns that might exist on the property that had been illegally converted to fully automatic, a felony for which the maximum penalty is 10 years. Yeah, and counterpoint in this limited story, he's already participated in one shootout

too. So let's miss. Oh, miss trial. Already adjudicated, miss trial. So, so a crazy guy with a shitload of guns fucking 13 year olds. That's one of those instances where it's okay to make up an excuse. They got the poem for tax evasion. I'm just saying I'm fine with this or no excuse. Just fucking go figure it out. Yeah, absolutely.

All right, I'm February 28th around 915 in the morning, the ATF sent trailers of heavily armed agents to Swarm Mount Carmel Center. And the whole thing was a PR stunt as the media had been alerted and were on the scene prior to the raids beginning. Now the ATF agents did not have the element of surprise in the raid. And knowing this, some agents pleaded to call off the operation. But since the whole thing was intended to be a good guy, bad guy, one punch knockout thing to redeem the government's lousy behavior after the debacle at Ruby Ridge.

The ATF chose to continue the raid. And although the government's story officially disputes it, footage of the raid is pretty clear and demonstrating that ATF agents began firing almost immediately upon arriving at the compound. They're just like, ring the bell. Oh, with bullets, got it boss, ringing a bell with bullets. What? No, damn it. It's too late. Oh, with bullets got it boss, ringing the bell with bullets. What? No, damn it, it's too late.

Oh, he did it. It's FedEx, I have this gun for you. It works. No, it's a work that's gotten, as you can hear. They went in, shoot first, ask Koresh Jins later. There you go. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha of the initial raid was a fucking nightmare six church members were killed as were four eight f agents armdemen and helicopters fired on the house from above gunfire just blasted through walls and doors the church housed many women and children at f agents were firing

blind through doors and walls the branch to vidians were on the phone with nine one one within two minutes of being fired upon begging someone to reach the tactical team and stop the attack, but 911 operators had no access to the ATF team. What the fuck? No ambulances were on hand and no communication lines were established other than the extensive phone and fax lines provided to the press. Okay, okay, no to self here shooting out help us in Morse code is not a great way to get an ambulance. That's my fault.

That's my fault. Just two ATF agents trying to fire back, being like, help me help you in gun moors. Stop it. I'm sending the message back. I'm sending the message. I called for it. You got gunfire rock paper. Guns. We call it. I'm going to fire rock paper. We're ready.

Shoot gun shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot a child shoot a child shoot a child shoot a child shoot a child shoot a child shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot to retreat when they ran out of ammunition. The dividends for their part, they very much, what's that? They're like, time out, time out, time out. They actually did, I got a piece of dust in my eye. They put their hands in the air when they, like they're like done, like, oh, they put their hands in the air back away slowly, like, fuck, okay. Didn't mean it. All right.

Now, the dividends very much were not out of ammunition. However, they stopped suiting immediately when the ATF agents put their hands up and they were no longer under attack. David Kuresh was wounded in the exchange and the siege at Waco had officially begun. Yeah. And so began the seven weeks of all of America sitting at home going, they should do something followed by all of them simultaneously switching to they should have waited it out. Now, correction is church members negotiated with the FBI who took over from the ATF after the ATF was found to have acted incompetently in the raid.

The delays were likely to allow the wounded correction opportunity to complete his religious writing. Although, Crescia never previously written down any of his prophetic teaching, he'd begun working on a document which explained his religious beliefs around the seven seals, all of which were assuredly bonkers, but nothing gets you to put the finishing touches on that book you've been meaning to write like waiting out a siege while being gutshot. All right, let's get started here. Page one had a legally rape a 13 year old. Yeah.

And finished. Yeah. Texas. Done. With my thing. Yeah. Okay. So I'm noticing we haven't tried to torture anyone yet.

Um, were they waiting for something? Does that happen now? When do they start torturing? They didn't wait super long. Actually, so as a siege war on the negotiations faltered, the FBI used a variety of psychological warfare techniques to break down and destabilize the Divinity there it is loud music and animal sounds were blasted over loudspeakers day and night animal sounds did they just amplify one of those Pull strength toys the call says And floodlights traced constantly over the windows in the building to make sleep difficult or impossible.

You know, the usual extremely legal ways you're allowed to treat people in their home who don't have hostages. Now, the rationale here being that the dividends were behaving irrationally. So maybe if we make them more crazy, they'll come all the way around. Getting a guy with the amnesia in the head to give him his memory. You know, the FBI brings in the funds. He just walks up to the compound and elbows the door. He turns into a school for the blind. Yeah. All right, but pressure was mounting on the government to end the season.

I'm not actually sure why except that maybe some of those guys had vacation days lined up and started to get embarrassing. So 51 days after the raid, the decision was made to force the dividends from their compounds so they could arrest them all for being shot at and then shooting back. So authorized by then attorney general, Janet Reno, a couple of real actual tanks were outfitted with CS gas canisters. These were tanks that Janet Reno would, no shit later describe as quote, basically like a really nice renta car.

What? These tanks. Yeah, that's literally what she said. Yeah, it hurts. These, I guess, renta literally what she said. Yep, hurts. These, I guess, renta tanks, I'm not sure. I don't have that credit card. We're then driven into the building, smashing holes in the structure as canister after canister of CSGAS was fired into the building.

Now separately, handheld guns outfitted with CSGAS grenades were fired through windows at any sign of movement, which means it's a firing tear gas at people directly. They're also shooting rubber tank rounds at people nonlethally. They were doing that. Yeah, but yeah, they're rallying cry that morning was, let's go almost kill these motherfuckers like that. Yeah, as we did use Annville's and pianos, but they were repelling down

on ropes for safety. So, um, great. Yeah. Tom, the good guys decided to gas them out. How did that go? Oh, and great. Um, because the volume of gas introduced into the building was just fucking massive and unrelenting for six hours. CS gas was introduced into the building was just fucking massive and unrelenting. For six hours, CS gas was poured into the building through massive holes, smashed through the walls by these enormous tanks. The volume and duration of the gas rendered any masks the dividends might have had useless, but important to remember that the kids in the compound were totally fucked no matter what, because there were no child-sized masks available. So the women and the children retreated into the interior of the church into a kitchen

store room, but in a game of kitchen store room tank, tank always wins. So a tank smashed through the wall of the store room and then blasted CS gas directly into the enclosed non-ventilated space. Well, I mean admittedly one wall had a tank size hole in it, so it wasn't non-ventilated. That's ventilation. That counts. Yeah. Experts would testify that the volume of gas introduced into that space would have been

at the very least incapacitating for the adults and very likely lethal. C.S. CS gas as it interacts with other factors in that environment turns to cyanide gas of the same type using gas execution chambers. Yeah, we like to use non-lethal weapons that can switch spontaneously to lethal weapons in the middle of the picture of your toes. I'm rooting for the cult now. Like I don't like that, but I'm definitely rooting for the cult now, right?

Keep rooting, buddy. Not long after the last, I'm holding my breath. Not long after the last volleys of tear gas were introduced, an intense fire began. The dust from the CS gas would have acted as an accelerant. It's highly flammable. And the holes punched in the building allowed air to flow freely to feed the inferno. And in an astonishingly short period of time, the entire compound was engulfed in flames. Yeah, Captain, can we get a small nuke over here and drop it on the compound to put out this fire? Is that a possibility? She swallowed

a fly originally. All right. Now, the official government story was that the Davidians started the blaze, but evidence from a fleer infrared video camera, which was filming from a plane flying overhead, as well as testimony from the survivors cast significant doubt on that portion of the story. And most of the forensic evidence on the ground suggests instead that the fire was more likely to be started by the use of incendiary gas rounds that were fired into the structure. It's crazy, but hear us out.

They were just burning their compound down with all of them inside, as we were shooting more than lethal amounts of poison gas to them through the walls. It's in this is all the show story for the next decade, just to be clear. What I did, did, did, did, did be fair. The branched of idiots did threaten to set themselves on fire repeatedly during the raid. So, I look at the very least, they're guilty of making it really easy for someone else to set them on fire. They put it out there. They put it out there in the ether. What were they wearing?

Well, we could also, we could also point out that they also going to walk out with their hands up in any point. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. So the FBI tanked gas and fire bombed first, but who shot first, Tom? That's what I want to know. Well, that same camera footage also disputes the testimony from the FBI that no shots were fired by the FBI during the final moment to the siege. The infrared footage actually clearly shows multiple instances of automatic fire into the compound during the final moment to the siege. The infrared footage actually clearly shows multiple instances of automatic fire into the compound during the siege, including automatic fire on several

occasions into an area of intense fire. And that footage, along with the forensic analysis of the bodies, suggested at least some of the dividends were machine gunned as they tried to exit the burning building. 79 dividians died on that final day of which 22 were children. Some appeared to have died from the gas. There's some evidence that suggests that many of the dividians may have died from self-inflicted wounds, though that evidence is far from clear. There's so many irregularities in the crime scene analysis and in the reporting that some elements of the investigation were halted because they were producing, quote, Brady material. And if you don't know what Brady material is, you can't just stop because of that.

They literally said we don't want to look further into this portion of the investigation because we're producing Brady material. Brady material is exculpatory material for the evidence or for the defense, which would be the Davidians who they are still trying to prosecute. That's fancy talk for, well don't look at that stuff. It makes us look bad, Dave. Yeah. How come on, Dave? Sprinkle some crack over there. There you go. I got some for you. Sprinkle some of my crack. How hard could those kids have jumped on those bullets? Only nine people survived the final raid on the branch, Davidian church at Mount Carmel Center.

11 Davidians were put on trial. Several had surrendered to authorities throughout the 51 day siege. All 11 were acquitted of murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Though five were found guilty of voluntary manslaughter and weapons charges. The events in Waco remain highly controversial and the stories of the survivors and the federal agents both conflict with some of the physical evidence. Wow. Okay.

And if you had to summarize what you've learned in one sentence, what would it be? Well, if you're going to have dozens of wives and guns, wear a white shirt and a thin black tie because that makes you safer. All right. And are you ready for the quiz from the panel? Absolutely. All right, Tom. Well, as we referenced a little bit, Waco was a conspiracy theory for years and it turned out to be true. Which conspiracy theory also turned out to be true? Is it a project sunshine, the time the government stole parts of dead bodies so they could test nuke some?

Just parts? Is it B? I just want to see what happens to a foot. I just want to know what the dick happened to dick. Come on, be honest, you want to know what happened to the dick. To be clear, it was just parts. B, the fruit machine, which was created by the Canadian government, to find out which federal employees were gay. Absolutely not. Oh no. See, the time our president was a Russian spy now right now is when that is or D all of the above and like a super lot more there everywhere also this year we figured out they shot down that

plane. It's been a rough year also Bernie 2020. Oh, distressingly D so distressively day. All right, Tom. That's probably correct. I was probably correct. Correct. Yeah. Tom, which song played over the loudspeaker was the one the Davidians hated the most?

A, Jump in Jack Flashbang. B, Light My Fire.bang. That's it. That's it. Be light my fire. Yeah. D, we did it. Polyga, my way. It's not worth it. For D, 24th son of a preacher man. Nice.

That's it. Well, it can't be. We did it. Polyga, my way because they. I don't know what I'm actually I'm going to go with that one. I love that one. I want to not just because he wanted it. That's the right one.

I'm getting the lyrics tattooed on he lyrics tattoo tattoo lyrics. So in step ahead. I know I don't want to go because he's was better than mine. There was a mini series about the event that was released last year, boringly titled Waco. What should they have called it instead? Oh no. Hey, ATF.

That's amazing. B. Are you 30 going on 13? Dark. See? Wide awake. Oh. That's so cool.

I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Are you 30 going on 13? Dark. Dark. Good. See, wide awake. Oh. Oh. That's good.

That's so good. That's the least. That time we treated dangerous white people like harmless black people. So there were a couple of congressional inquiries about it. That's what you remember. Oh my God. I'll never sleep again after that one. So I'm going to pick wide awake. Oh, I'm sorry. No, it was the time that we treated the white people like harmless black people.

The other one runs. Unfortunately, sorry. Oh, you almost had it. You were one letter away, but Noah, you stumped him. You are the winner. All right. Also, I had no idea what angle anything was in this essay. So I'm going go with Cecil for next I Will all right make sure to bust out my protractor just That's so sexy what do you say? a skew redly

That was that's okay. That was okay. It was up too soon No lucky lie, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well.

No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well. No, it's you as well I'm here. Thank you for hanging out with us. We'll be back next week, and by then, Cecil. We'll be an expert on something else between Noah and then. You can hear Tom and Cecil on cognitive dissonance, and you can hear Eli, Noah and myself on God-awful movies, The Skating Atheist, and The Skeptocrat. And if you agree that the FBI should not execute people,

and you wanted to support the show, head over to patreon.com slash citation pod And if you'd like to get in touch with us, listen to past episodes connect with us on social media or take a look at the show notes Be sure to check out citation pod.com I mean, I am just supposed to feel that beef taco I like extra sour cream if you know what I mean. All right, shoot out in three, two. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Okay, now. One. F***ing. Absolutely destroyed your daughter's fun box. Like, my daughter's what? Well, my fun box, what? But Jingo, whatever, you want to call it. I was reading the Bible and I said Lord

What is my purpose and I sure enough when I look down it was like God Just you know whispered in my ear. You need to you need to fill that dick glove Just fill it, you know David David. Let me stop you here. I think I know I know I was skeptical myself I thought really God like having lunch in her pie corner and the Holy Spirit it just answered so bright and so true in my heart like you are the mayo in that bacon sandwich You know, please stop. Please. So I'm here to ask you know To tell you will you bless me? Making a deal with the banker as hard as I can. Nope, nope, nope.

Banana basket. Okay, we're gonna fight now. Hahaha. Hahaha. Hahaha. Hahaha. Hahaha. Hahaha.

Hahaha. Sorry, I just need a second. Just a second. I'll be back a second. Oh fuck. It's a hard moment for my wife when she walked over and she was like, what are you doing? She saw all the nicknames for vagina listed out. Okay.

I'm working. I'm working. Alright, here we go. You guys ready? Everybody's ready? Check, check, check. Everybody didn't say ready. Check.

Check. None of us stopped doing the thing. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. Everybody's ready? Check, check, check. Everybody didn't say ready. Check. None of us stopped doing the things that made us ready. Yeah. We were all here.

You left. We were pre-ready. I would like everybody to say ready. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I would like everyone to say ready.