Citation Needed - Eugene V Debs

Episode Date: April 8, 2020

Eugene Victor "Gene" Debs (November 5, 1855 – October 20, 1926) was an American socialist, political activist, trade unionist, one of the founding members of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) and five times the candidate of the Socialist Party of America for President of the United States.[1] Through his presidential candidacies as well as his work with labor movements, Debs eventually became one of the best-known socialists living in the United States. Our theme song was written and performed by Anna Bosnick. If you’d like to support the show on a per episode basis, you can find our Patreon page here.  Be sure to check our website for more details.

Because you can't eat glue. We've been over this. Okay, but what if there were edible glue then you could eat? I'm not having that fight again. We had that fight last week. Probably having again though. No justice.

No peace. No justice. No peace. No, you're God. He's Eli, what are you guys? What do you guys do? No, what are you doing? We're on strike. Yeah, strike exactly are you guys? What do you guys do to get? What are you doing? We're on strike.

Yeah, strike, exactly. From what? What do you want strike from? From the show. We want better working conditions. And better pay. Yeah, me too. I'm on your side now. Ta, what the fuck? Seriously, man? Well, sorry, they had me a better pay.

You heard them say better. Hey, you could say better pay. Guys, guys, we can't go on strike. We do not have any bosses. Okay, but what about our working conditions? Heath, you record for a half an hour each week. It's, it's 45 sometimes. Again.

Cuts, plus my standing desk makes me tired. Well, then sit down, man. And let Deep Vane thrombosis win. No, thank you Cecil. Okay, but we still have to trust the better pay, Isha, better pay. Wait a minute, Tom, Tom, we get paid by the people who like the show and support us on Patreon.

We can't go on strike against our patrons unless, no, we are not putting the show behind a paywall. We had that discussion, no. We can barely get people to listen to it for free. That's not a great idea actually. Okay, okay fine, fine. But will you at least stop spraying me in Heath with hoses? Are you gonna bathe? No. No. Then no. Hello and welcome to Citation Needed podcast where we choose a subject read a single article about it on Wikipedia and pretend We're experts because this is the internet and that's how it works now. I'm Heath and the proletariat shall rise up and join

For the revolution that will be Podcasted are three men who ignored the peace and land and went straight for the bread, Cecil, Tom, and Eli. Harb load, and all the Democrats, socialists in the house say, hello, hello. Oh, that's fantastic. You had me a bread and a circus. That's really fantastic.

And circus women, you had me a circus women. I was, okay, noted. And I would like to apologize for fucking up the whole every man to his means thing. Again, again, nobody was counting on me when they said that. And also joining us, we have the specter of communism. Noah is here. He's not, nope, that's right.

That's right. He's haunting Europe. He'll be back. Yes. Some amazing communism references in there. The manifesto. Just so everybody. Yeah. We got it. We got it. We tried to make one. He got all the people who were wrong. It's, you know, from each recording to his ability. And it's not even from the manifesto. It's from the critique of the Gotha program. It's fine though, but it's okay, it's Mark's, I'm already fighting you on Twitter just so you know, we're already, you're already making a big hit.

You're all freaking line, buddy. Jesus Christ. All right, let's get right into it. Eli, tell us what person place thing, concept, phenomenon, or event? Are we gonna be talking about today? Well, thanks to Fantastic Patron, Andrew Andrew suggested no fewer than three times we cover

Eugene V. Debs. Excellent. Great pick. My aunt is actually named after Eugene V. Debs. Debra. Debra. Debra. Yeah.

Yeah. Pretty cool. And Cecil, you're obviously a ninth level secret agent of the corporate overlords. Are you ready to tell us about an amazing socialist icon, but with subliminal shades of sabotage throughout? Look, I'm just saying with all the claimant of other people shit this guy's name

should have been Eugene Dibs. That's a big deal. Okay. All right. So what is the origin story of Bernie Sanders go? It happens 10 years before Bernie Sanders is born. It's really close. I know. The beginning of time. I just want to announce right at the beginning. I love Bernie Sanders. Yeah. Actually, I think we all need to get that out just so people don't fuck this up. He's been sent a mail. Bernie Sanders is fucking fantastic.

I don't like the Joe Biden, it's fine. Go ahead. I don't like Bernie's Jewish. Good. Worker teeth. Okay. All right, guys, I want you guys to sit back for a second.

Imagine if you can, a time when the United States was plagued by incredible wealth inequality, where workers had few rights, where people were exploited on a daily basis. Where the working class felt as if they had no voice, where people quickly fell into debt and then into poverty, I know, this sounds like science fiction. Well, I'm here to tell you that there was a time just like this in American history as wacky as that sounds.

That time happened only once and we got a lot better since then. We've not had any problem since. So we're good. You know, it probably fixed. It was a youth led revolution of 11% of the available electorate. That's fucking crushed it. Yeah. Tom also loves Bernie Sanders to be clear in the first hand.

That is how you get done. 11% of the young people, 11% loves Bernie Sanders. Yeah, that is how you get done. 11% of the young people, 11% really love him. People came out in higher numbers. It's what he's youth led revolution. He's not going to win. 89% of the youth did not lead. It's real sad. No, real in and in guys.

Here we go. In all seriousness, the labor laws and workers rights of the turn of the 20th century were fucking abysmal. This is before 40 hour work weeks. This is before weekends off, paid time off, child labor laws, and really so many other things that we take for granted in today's workplace. It was during that time that the unions and labor strikes and the socialists helped pave the way.

And this week's show is about one very famous socialist that ran for president four times and never once had to get into a fist fight at a brokered convention. Well, I think what Cecil's saying is, we're all very much hoping to watch Telsi Gabbard get punched in the face by a Dalmatian at the convention. That's what he asked for.

Yeah, watch the verse. Ah! Hey, Cecil, what I'm here to say is, um, two down, two to go. Yeah. Right. Wouldn't be great if Tulsi Gabbard comes out on stage and she had cut Hillary's Clinton's face off and she's wearing it like the ambulance. Like a skim from science of the lambs.

Yeah. You had me. You had me if she had cut Hillary Clinton's face off. So yeah, remember? Okay, our story starts in Terahode, Indiana in 1855, Jean Daniel and Marguerite Debs emigrate from the El Saunce region of France and have five children. One of them is named after their favorite authors, Eugene Sue

and Victor Hugo. It's name Eugene Victor Dex. No, I'm picturing the confrontation from Les Mis, but it's Bernie and Biden. That's all I can see right now. And once again, asking for your financial support. You must thank me, man. Unten you know. I know you're you.

So at the end, keep going. You got the whole thing. You're not going to keep going. If you think I want to do all of Glee, miss, we're not going to do all that I miss. We're not doing it. No. Bernie.

I just thought. No. I just thought. I just thought. You know. No. No. No. I know you're Eugene V. Yeah, I quit the show.

I quit. I quit. At the age of 14, Debs drops out of school and becomes a painter for the railroad, painting and scraping paint from railroad cars. An interesting story is that he used his first two days of wages to buy a paint scraper. And he kept that paint scraper. I know. And he kept that paint scraper as a prize possession until he died, which says a lot about both

workplace equipment availability and prize possessions around 1870. Wait, it's gonna be opted for one that wasn't like diamond plated. He would have been able to get that. Like three months wages is for a fucking engagement ring, not a paint scraper. You gene, you gene by the one that's seen on TV. Don't go for this big one. After a few years working as a painter, he climbs the corporate ladder. One of the other employees on the railroad, a locomotive fireman misses work because he's drunk. So Deb steps up and starts doing that work, which consisted of shoveling coal into a raging furnace on a steam-powered locomotive that ran between Tara Hote and

Indianapolis. Clearly, one of the circles a hell. Indian, I mean, is where the circle is. You guys really hate Indian. So much. He did. Hey, say what you will about the 1870s, but Colin Dibbs is a pretty cool way to get a new job, right? That's very true. I'm not here today.

I'm the fire guy now. Colin Dibbs. A true story Indiana still smells like that trainfire to this day. Hasn't changed. That and methane, absolutely. God. After a few years on the horrific job, he decides to change professions and starts working at a grocery warehouse. That was available before he took the shovel and coal into a raging. I'm not sure. I don't know exactly what was on

monster.com back then. But it might have been glass door was literally just a glass door to your boss's office. You yelled at him, but you made through it. And then he killed you. But in 1875, Debs joined the brotherhood of locomotive firemen and became active in the organization. In the next few years, he's editing their monthly magazine, serving as their delegate for his chapter at the National Convention. He wasn't even working as a fireman at this time.

He just liked the people, I guess. And these brotherhoods were not like the unions of today. They were more like social clubs anyway. Oh, okay. So like a teachers union. Yeah. It was constant teachers union. Brotherhoods focused on building community among the workers rather than leveraging their

collective bargaining. They viewed labor and capital as friends. So labor striking was at this point looked down upon by the brotherhood and by Debs himself, and you could hardly blame him. Strikes back then could turn deadly when strikers clashed with malicious. Many strikes ended with rioting and mass destruction. A quote from Wikipedia here, quote, the brotherhood had never authorized a strike from its founding in 1873 to 1887,

a record which Debs was proud of. And quote, right. And I totally get it. Joe Biden voted several times during that stretch to murder the striking unions with militias. He did that that isn't as well. But he's still better than Trump. That's so very important. And he doesn't even remember it. I don't know why you guys are mad about it. Okay. Don't do that. No striking record is like a weird thing to be proud of. It's like, we haven't used a nuclear option in 14 years, Mike. Okay, that's not. Not even a long stretch of time. It's all I'm saying. At this point, Deb's wonders if this is really the right way to affect change in the world

and decides briefly to instead pursue a job in the government as a politician. In late 1870, he served as city clerk and then in 1884, he began, he became the state representative for Indiana's general assembly. But after one term, he decided not to run again. Debs joined the legislator, all bright eyed and bushy tailed with plans to help labor and push for women's rights, but was appalled by the vote trading and dealing that went on. It sounds like it ruined his idea how the government works, so he gave it up and went back to organizing labor. I mean, it taught him about how the government worked. Yeah.

During the next several years, labor clashed with business all over the United States. The Haymarket bombing took place in 1886 when the police attacked a peaceful rally and a worker responded by throwing dynamite at the police. Okay, so not entirely peaceful. They brought dynamite. Okay.

I guess I wrote that sentence badly. I think it happened at two separate days. So it was peaceful until the police came. Oh, yeah, no, the police came over beat the shit out of a bunch of them in the next day. Somebody's like eat some dynamite motherfucker. It's a true first. Yeah. Yeah. At least Han shot first, Han shot first. that's all I'm saying. No, it's true they did. So anyway, that could probably be its own episode. And in 1886, there was the Bayview massacre when the National Guard fired on 14,000 striking

workers. And it should probably be its own episode too. And in 1892, there was the Homestead massacre in Pennsylvania where the Pinkerton's killed steel workers on strike. And that should probably be, you guys know, you know what I'm gonna say. Okay, yeah, but if we did all those, then how could we fit in all the essays about internet rumors and like vegetables we can fuck? Like the priority, yeah, forgot sex, Trump.

So Debs is involved in the Burlington Railroad Strike of 1888. Interesting. The railroad workers demanded higher wages, mayor of Burlington. Yes, seniority rights and grievance procedures. The workers did strike, but the railroad brought in the Pinkerton's and hired scabs and broke the strike in a month. In the wake of this, Debs leaves the brotherhood and starts one of the first industrial unions in the United States, the American Railway Union. And it's first year in 1894, they successfully got demands met for the workers during the great Northern Railway Strike. I love that one of the demands was grievance procedures. So like one of their big complaints

was they had no good way to complain. All right. I just got to fix that. Yeah, they got a suggestion box out of it. It was amazing. In 1894, Debs became involved with the Pullman Strike. Pullman train cars were plush sleeper train cars. They were made in a factory town just south of Chicago. And when I say factory town, I mean the factory own the town. Like Chris Walkins mining town in the rundown, the greatest action movie of all time.

What? Two. How? Stereo, are you fucking kidding me, Roadhouse? Or like, what? Bloodsport. No, wait, what? Mm-mm.

He doesn't use guns and then he uses guns. He doesn't use his guns. He's hard to matrix. Ha ha ha ha. Anything with Gary Bucy? Are you serious? Gary Bucy. Sleep.

The Pullman town was supposed to be some kind of capitalist sweat dream. People lived in the town and shopped at the stores and worked at the factory there. But the company rented the homes, sold the food and paid the workers. After a recession hits, the company slashes wages, but they don't slash the cost of rumenboard. It's crazy. Now we call that the economy. We all want strike. Well, we'll find out. Now you

can argue that the deal sucked hardcore prior to the wage cut. Pullman rents were high, the wages were low, and the hours were abundant. But after the recession, he cut wages 40% and this in addition to not lowering costs, caused the strike. So these workers joined Debs' new union and they tried to convince the owner to make some changes. They eventually walk off the job in May. He's like, all right, all right, you guys can have $40 raise. Side note unrelated rents going up 40 bucks this month.

I don't know what you're doing. So this strike actually had a huge ripple effect on the economy all across the nation. See, this was an industrial union, meaning all the people in the industry that were part of the union were involved in the strike. All the workers boycotted all the railroads that used Pullman car. So trains all over the country, ground to a halt. A few weeks later, though, Grover Cleveland, that was the president of the time, called in the National Guard. They

clashed with the strikers all across the nation. A bunch of trains are derailed, properties damaged. Many people are injured and 30 people die. The papers, of course, blame all this on the workers and specifically on Eugene Debs. Okay. I love unions striking so much, you know, for all the obvious reasons. But I think my favorite is how it's the peak of passive aggressive. Like, I mean, like the literal meaning

of those words each separately, like super passive, but super aggressive. And then the National Guard, the guys come in, they try to break it up and they have to be like, stop. Nothing, gang. What do we do? Was it like little baby Ronald Reagan just taking notes at this point?

No, it was grown up, Ronald Reagan. I'm going to be in a movie with a monkey. The US government eventually steps in and stops the strike, claiming that it's obstructing US mail and it's good news and bad news for Debs. The good news is that there's a period of major unrest in the United States because of the Pullman strike. So they make a new national holiday, Labor Day. Bad news is Debs and Seven Others are brought up on charges of conspiracy for their participation.

Debs was defended at that trial by Clarence Darrow, who was just as successful as he was during the Scopes Monkey trial. Debs gets six months in jail. He just leans over, hey, Clarence, not trying to tell you how to do your job, but the part where you asked my boss if the Bible was true didn't feel super. No, and it was trial. Not great. Deb spends a time in jail.

Jail sounds actually really, really nice. He's in a nice jail in Woodstock, Illinois, which is a cute small town in Northern Illinois as a comfy bed. He gets to share his family for dinner, gets visitors, has plenty of time for reading and reflection. Nice. Okay, when you read that and I'm thinking like,

man, Jail sounds like a significant lifestyle. Okay, we've maybe done society wrong. I'm just, you know, I'm just, I'm just, I don't know like my life, except, you know, a little bit north of here. So while in jail, he meets Nelly Bly, who interviews him and he realizes that maybe capitalism isn't super great and quote,

it was said that a friend left a copy of DOS Kapital and prisoner Debs read it slowly, eagerly, ravenously. End quote. Okay. That part sounds like a pen house letter. That does not sound like how you read DOS Kapital. It can be both. Well, like a pen house letter, it's probably a lie, Tom. So, yeah. Deb's emerged from jail at the end of his sentence, a change man.

He would spend the final three decades of his life proselytizing for the socialist cause. Now, the cause of the inspiration might not be accurate, and some people attribute his socialism to other authors, but he definitely was a socialist when he walked out of the jail. All right. Well, C-Sos we're really putting together a folk song on his guitar and harmonica rig. So we're gonna we're gonna take a quick break for some Alright everyone, please rise for the 1870 presidential elections. Most of us don't know about germs, so this is very, very silly. We recognize the speaker from Missouri.

Good evening ladies and gentlemen, I represent the Scoot Scoot party. Scoot, you know, all those things you used to play on in gym class, like a like a roller skate that you sat on. You remember the old the parachute game anyway, vote for me. Missouri. All right. Good. Excellent speech. Excellent. And now the candidate from the new territory of Minotoba at Creole. Thank you, good evening everyone. Sorry, Mexico just took us back over, never mind, I'm out. Alright, alright, enjoy Mexico, fantastic, next. Hello, I'm the Republican.

We are the good guys now, but we're gonna do a weird switch roofing in the 50s, so be a look after that. Should be lots and lots of fun. Oh, all right. Well, gentlemen and gentlemen, because that's who can vote. You have your candidates. Go ahead and vote. If you know how to write, and we'll meet up here in four years, and we'll do this again. Sound good, everyone? I made my mark.

Order. made my mark order. And we're back. When we left off, Eugene V. Debs was leaving jail, throwing a match behind him and walking away in slow motion with a giant explosion behind him in the background. So what happens next? It reminds me of the rundown, like where the explosion is walking in slow motion. Really great movie anyway. The pulmon strike with guys, that's amazing.

The pulmon strike actually gets him some great publicity. So much so that when he leaves jail six months later, a hundred thousand people come to see him at the Chicago train station to hearurom's Peak and welcome him back into society. After this, he realizes that he needs to start a political party. And this, my friends, is why TikTok will be a political party by 2024. Oh, yeah. Debs traveled across the country and spoke to crowds hungry for some equality. There were actually a lot of socialist groups back then and Debs was suggested as the

presidential nominee for the 1900 presidential election. He of course would only agree if the disparate socialist parties joined together under one banner. They did and he got 0.6% of the popular vote that year. We're talking big structural change, big structural change. I just want to know how we got all the socialist groups together under one banner. So, okay, someone's yelling at me on Facebook right now.

I will read it to you. People's front of Medicare for all, not Medicare for all. People's front, you fucking Republican. We're all going to lose. We're all gonna lose. We're all gonna lose. We're gonna lose. We're gonna figure out which banner is the good team and which banner is the bad. I hate us so much.

So there's only two banners. I don't like it, but that's what's happening right now. But if the banner is imperfect, you could pretend that there are no banners. That's actually, okay, that's right. I like Tom's thing. No, but you don't, you don't. So what we're, Debs crazy socialist policies. Well, chances are we wouldn't recognize them as socialist. Just like a person from Sweden doesn't think their health care is from a Marxist utopia. He's pushing for the 40 hour work week. He wants to enact child labor

laws. Lazy, lazy, get to work, kids. He wanted people to have some kind of recourse when they were injured on the job. He wanted the right to a union. It was a socialist hell he was pushing for, a socialist hell. Oh, okay. So he wanted people to be allowed to compete freely in the labor market. That's weird because that sounds super capitalist to me.

Yes. With a capitalist. I mean, to be fair, Cecil, the last two, we're still not real solid on those. That's not a lot of what I'm saying. No. No. When he ran, he wasn't trying to win. He knew like Andrew Yang that he had no fucking chance of winning.

Instead, he just wanted to bring attention to inequality and their horrific clash struggle in the US. I'll point out that before Yang ran, we laughed about universal basic income too. Right. Now we laugh at it and we associate it with the time of Fortnite streamer ran for president. So yeah. You remember when W fixed the economy by giving everyone $300? It would have Republican does it, it's a stimulus. It's still right. It's still right. I still have that check framed on the wall. This could be a dig.

Three hundred dollars. Don't stimulate anything. Fuck me. As a socialist, he was for racial equality, which for a lot of people back then was a bitter hill to swallow. And it's also still like that. He felt like the only thing that really separated

people was economic class and the rest of the things we focused on were all made up to help do the separating. Deb said this about the employer class. Quote, I am opposing a social order in which it is possible for one man who does absolutely nothing that is useful to a mass of fortune of hundreds of millions of dollars. Streamination. Well, millions of men and women who work all the days of their lives secure barely enough for a wretched existence. End quote.

Yeah. Okay. So just be clear, I love Eugene V. Debs, but I've also read some slightly different accounts about the racial stuff. Some authors are saying, well, you know, this white guy from the 1800s might actually be a little bit racist. Deb's ended up supporting workers rights for everyone, but according to some of these theories, that was only because having the black workers in a lower status would make it easier for management to exploit the white workers specifically. So he landed

on an equality via white power, which isn't great. Oh, neat, like that Nazi last week at Bernie's, Raleigh. Jesus. He's, I'm a little confused, but like, does that mean that management was having a hard time exploiting workers before this? I mean, like they need it.

There is such a thing as too much lube, right? I mean, at some point that's just a lot. It's just strong. Now you're making a mess is what I'm saying. In 1905, he took part in the founding of the IWW, which is the international workers of the world. This is another labor union that combined people that worked in the same trades, as well

as people who worked in the same industry. Debs ran again for president in 1904, got 3% of the popular vote, which was over 400,000 votes. And in 1908, he did it again, again, 400,000 votes, 3% of the overall popular vote. Oh yeah, pulling in those sweet, tell us the gathered numbers now. Here comes the debt strain. Never voting. Okay. Way more than the sweet, mostly gathered members actually.

I love that they got exactly four times as many people as showed up physically to greet him when he left. But nobody broke. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't matter what time I get. Never know outside of a guy. Man, it was a dystopia back then too. Right.

In 1912, the inclusion of the socialist party in the presidential race really started to pay off some of the other people that were running were Teddy Roosevelt and Lidra Wilson. They started adopting some of the socialist policies to lure voters to their side. Many of the labor issues of the day were being addressed around this time. Oh, fine. Okay. We'll go down to an 80 hour work week. And if your kid gets stuck in the gears of the machine,

so we'll slow it down so you can recover the body. She's fucking funny. He's snowflake. God. Why don't you just put a string on your kid? That way you can just pull him out when he goes, oh, what the fuck? Oh, I want all the pieces, whatever.

You're a fair backpack on him. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. This is a really good year for the socialist locally the socialist select a thousand representatives from around the country and over 300 socialist mayors. Debs gets almost six percent of the popular vote almost a million people. That's good stuff. The incumbent William Taft only received three point five million votes. Also just to let you know that election, the Democrats secured 41%

of the vote. The Republicans got 23% and the progressive party, not the socialist party, received 27% of the vote and more electoral states than the Republican make America great again. Ranked choice voting that election. Here we go. Kuma Tay. Sorry. I was just trying. Here we go. Kumite. Sorry, I thought we were the same.

I was just trying. Kumite. Sorry, I thought we were just saying good ideas that'll never happen. Go ahead and do your thing. You do yours. But seriously, Rank Choice voting. Like we have the two party system goes away overnight pretty much. And we have like just a bunch of good candidates and we get the rank and pick the best one.

What the fuck? Yeah, we're doing awesome with the pick your favorite guy system, so we should complicate it. I agree. It uncomplicated. Sorry, you don't need primaries with rank choice voting. Okay, but what we should do is just introduce legislation that the two existing parties have to vote on

in order to, okay, it's not gonna happen. You heard it? You heard it, yeah. I felt it. I got it. Yeah. In 1914, the First World War breaks out and the socialists who were fucking balleret organizing have their own press, a bunch of equality-minded leaders.

They're a hundred percent against involvement and they are dead set on protesting, entering the war and the draft itself. Yeah, they're just like, okay, if you think the government didn't care about your safety when you're at home, you are going to love what's going to happen next. This is. Yep. Yep. And for three years, Debs and the other socialists protested the war, but in 1917,

Congress passed the Espionage Act, which made it a crime to convey information with the intent to interfere with the operation or success of the armed forces of the United States or promote the success of its enemies. This was punishable by death or by imprisonment for not more than 30 years or both. Bam. Who knew telling people about student loan forgiveness was a war crime. Yeah. I liked it.

They'll put you to death and then keep you in jail. I know. I didn't know which one, like which one comes first. They like spin and wheel. It didn't know which one comes first. They like spin a wheel. It's like twister when you can. Lidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlidlid Next year, Debs gives an anti-war speech and direct defiance of the law. Here's part of Debs' anti-war speech, quote. And here let me emphasize the fact and it cannot be repeated too often

that the working class who fight all the battles, the working class who make all the supreme sacrifices, the working class who freely shed their blood and furnish the corpses have never had a voice in either declaring war or making peace. It is the ruling class that invariably does both. They alone declare war and they alone make peace."

Stop resisting, you're doing stop resisting. Stop it. You're under arrest. Yep. Okay, but Cecil, if the workers made the rules, then they would just be the ruling class, the whole thing would start over. I mean, it says, you may as well. Just, just, to, don't plagiarize from Ben Shapiro like that. What is wrong with you? So anyway, this land steps in jail. He's charged with 10 counts of violating the S.B.

and Aj act. He was tried and the, the defense called no witnesses Instead, Debs gave the closing argument, quote, your honor. Years ago, I recognized my kinship with all living beings. And I made up my mind then that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now that while there is a lower class, I am in it. And while there is a criminal element, I am in it. And while there is a criminal element, I am of it. And while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." And quote, boonard. Yeah, well, yeah, pretty much. Dabs is convicted of three counts of trying to obstruct the draft and sentence to 10 years. That's pretty much what happened.

Yep. Oh, damn. That's a lot of dinners with the sheriff's family. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, 's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, April of 1919. Okay, but to be fair, baby Susan Collins was both perturbed and upset by that. Really guys. I'm saying,

perturbed. Yeah. And baby Tossi Gabbard was present. She was actually, I don't know, it was like early middle-aged Susan Collins at this point. But yeah, Debs in 1920 decided to run for president from prison. The slogan was the jailhouse to the White House. We have that in Illinois.

We just reverse the phrase. So, he's been in Washington too. While Debs couldn't do the things that a normal candidate would do like traveling gives speeches. He was allowed to give a weekly press release, which I think is awesome. Amazing. And he got almost a million votes, 6% of the popular vote from a jail cell. The president that beat him in the election, Warren Jean Harding, commuted his sentence in 1921. And when Debs left prison, he left to the entire cellblock

cheering for him. I don't know. Damn. Warn G. Harding? Pardon him? Forget it. Yep. Yep.

That's not great. Like, you're meeting with him. You're like, hey, that's cool. But like, you might want to save your pardony stuff. For you. Deb's, after release, slowed down a bit as his health was compromised from the shitty prison conditions. He was nominated for the Nobel Prize in 1924 on the grounds that Debs started to work

actively for peace in World War I mainly because he considered the war to be in the interest of capitalism. He died in 1926. Now, from Wikipedia, I just want to read this quote, the current Vermont Senator, the presidential candidate Bernie Sanders, has been a long time admirer of Debs and produced a 1979 documentary about Debs, which was released as a film and also an audio LP. In the documentary, he described Debs as, quote, probably the most effective and popular leader that the American working class has ever had end quote.

Okay, but maybe we shouldn't be so excited about how effective a guy was that got at its peak six percent. Oh, yeah, no, maybe effective is not the adjective we're looking for is probably not. You're right. I hard agree. Sanders hung a portrait of Debs in city Hall in Burlington, Vermont, where he served as mayor of the city in the 1980s. And he has a plaque dedicated to Debs in his congressional office.

Hopefully Sanders gets more than 6% of the popular vote everybody. We'll see. Hopefully he gets 0% of the popular vote because he's not going to be the nominee. I want him to be. I'm not going to be. Okay. And he's going to get more than 0% of the popular vote because he's not going to be the nominee. I want him to be. I'm not going to be. Okay. And he's going to get more than 0% of the popular vote and it might fuck everything up. I'm just saying, pay attention.

Wow. Okay. All right. Yes, the summarize, what you've learned in one sentence. Bernie Sanders is awesome. That's not the point of what I just said. What would it be, Cecil? Well, you know, socialist party, you know, maybe a strong third party candidate might

actually be able to do something. I don't know, you know, just break so you learn nothing. Are you ready for the fucking quiz? Great. Third party candidate, Jill Stein, forever. Anyway, go ahead. All right, I'm the first. I'm in a great day.

So Eugene V. Debs came back to life today. And let's say Joe Biden wins the Democratic nomination, not that I want him to, but let's say that's what happens. Who will Eugene V. Debs, the father of American socialism, be voting for in November? Hey, Joe Biden, you fucking idiot. I can't believe it's even in his fashion. Going back to being dead.

It was just, there was no other options. It was a, I think it's secret answer B, he'd vote for Joe Biden. Correct. All right, Cecil, capitalism is the answer. You bet it. However, was the question, okay? Why don't you shut up, you fucking baby.

Oh, are you crying? Do you want something to cry about? See, you look hungry. Are you hungry? Or do these Luba T tons make my feet look fat? Well, secret answer, E, these are all chapters in Charlie Kirk's new book. So there you go.

You got it. Capitalism, rub some dirt in it. You're not a problem. All right, Cecil. We've had a lot of fun today with he's blood pressure, but what are the real problems with socialism? A, when people imagine themselves to be billionaires under socialism, they have to imagine themselves with a smaller percentage of imaginary money they'll never have. Okay, I want that shirt.

I want that shirt. I want that shirt. I want that shirt. I want that shirt. I want that shirt. I want that shirt. Literally every single one. Holy Republican voter except for the billionaires. I want that shirt. Literally every single one. Holy shit, is that perfect? That is absolutely perfect.

Yeah. B, if the United States became socialist, how are we supposed to invade ourselves? Or C, if there weren't any poor people, who could I feel superior to? Wow. Well, it's definitely not B because I am feeling Trump's gonna invade sanctuary cities eventually. So I love A so much. It's gotta be A, right? Correct.

Yes. Oh, wow. Eli, two real buddy, two real, but you also win for the reality, and this, the real, real, real. All right. But you also win for the reality in this the real real real All right, then I choose Tom as next week's SS Someone who loves money per change all right well For Tom Noah will be back next week Cecil and Eli I'm heath Thank you for hanging out with us today. We'll be back next week and by then Tom whether he likes it or not

I hope he's an expert on something else. Between now and then, you can hear Tom and Cecil on cognitive dissonance, and you can hear Eli know on myself on God off the movies, Escaping Atheist and the Skeptocrat, and D&D Minus, it's out, it's official, we're playing D&D. On a podcast, we should have called it to D&D.

And everybody vetoed my shit. And that's like, to D&D's whatever. Hot sounds like a great. Thank you Tom amazing. That sounds like a fucking amazing porn title Such a good everything title. Thank you We're also it won a a plaza meter with our crowd in Los Angeles, but I still got you know Anyway, if you'd like to support our Yes, fun. Anyway, if you'd like to support our podcast for all plan that we have, podcast for all, you can make a per episode donation at patreon.com slash

citation pod. And if you'd like to get in touch with us, listen to past episodes, connect with us on social media or take a look at the show notes. Sure to check out citation pod.com. 11, 12, 13, votes for a McEnri? Ugh! Nevermind, account of two slowly died, so Iowa caucus, everybody, it's Iowa caucus time. Again?

I hate it when we Iowa caucus. So many times. Worse. You will Iowa caucus, and you will like it! Again, I hate it when we Iowa caucus. So many times. Worse. You will Iowa caucus and you will like it.