Citation Needed - Ghost Ships

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

A ghost ship, also known as a phantom ship, is a vessel with no living crew aboard; it may be a fictional ghostly vessel, such as the Flying Dutchman, or a physical derelict found adrift with its crew missing or dead, like the Mary Celeste.[1][2] The term is sometimes used for ships that have been decommissioned but not yet scrapped, as well as drifting boats that have been found after breaking loose of their ropes and being carried away by the wind or the waves.

Hello and welcome to Citation Nated, the podcast where we choose a subject, read a single article about it on Wikipedia, and pretend we're experts because this is the internet and that's how it works now. I'm Noah and I'm going to be desperately trying to come up with a boat analogy for this intro that I haven't used before. And offering no help at all are these four motherfuckers right here, starting with two men who put the naughty and nautical, Eli and Cecil. If I was a kraken, I'd spit the semen into my hands and rub them all over my chest.

Hi, new listener. Hi. And I'm more of a hot stealing cookies kind of naughty than anything else. Yeah, I do really should put you guys together. Maybe put me first next time. Those are the humor we'll be serving you. Yeah. Citation needed. Person trying a new podcast for the first time.

It's edutainment. No, yup, exactly. That's what it says on the thing. And also joining us tonight, two men who don't know about ships but know all about ghosting, heath and Tom. Red dot dot dot. That's what this is.

Dot dot dot. Blocked and deleted. And before we get going, I want to thank a group of people we would never ghost except Heath. And that's our patrons. They're the reason that we keep doing this show every week. And that's the reason that you get to keep listening to it every week. If you'd like to learn how to join their ranks, be sure to stick around to the end of the show. And with that out of the way, tell us, Tom, what person plays think concept,

phenomenon or event? What would we be talking about today? You have to say it like that. And Cecil, you read the article and or were haunted by a ship. Are you ready to tell us all about it? I think y'all get my drift because there's nobody driving it and there's no motor. Is that why you did the F-ring? I feel like that's why you did the whole thing. Right.

So what is a ghost ship? Well, it's not a show on Discovery America with Zach Baggins yelling commands to a dark cargo room on a tanker. It's, yeah. Isn't that yet, as of today. Yeah, yeah, we are open to Dude we would fucking rock a ghost ship come on Show with us just roast them the mentally ill people who let us into their home

All right, this is what I almost have we do. We were interviewed for it at one point. Yeah. God damn it. They didn't like us. They didn't make the show. They didn't make the show. Not exactly must see TV. Yeah, amazing.

All right. Ghost ships. You should go to a doctor. Ghost ships are derelict vessels that float aimlessly in the ocean, either because they were abandoned or their crew died. I guess that's a different kind of abandonment, but you still They float around until we discover them again. There are two classes of ghost of ghost ship The first is folklore and legendary ghost ships

Which means they probably didn't exist or they were based on some real ship and humans made a story much more interesting Or the other here is a class of historical actual ships that were found and documented. We'll be covering several stories from both of these categories, but I want to mention that a lot of them sound like a ghost story, and they are unsubstantiated, and I'll try to use that kind of language when I talk about them. Yeah.

And he'll talk like this. Well, he either does that or he horns in on your territory, Ulysses. Thank you. Yeah, exactly. You say supposedly a lot this episode. All right, let's start with a boat that was traveling from Honduras to Newport, Rhode Island, the Sea Bird. This was a merchant ship that was found grounded on the shore in Newport just a day before

it was supposed to arrive. The ship was left with coffee boiling on the stove in the galley and apparently in sight of land. The longboat was missing, but on board the only crew was a dog and a cat. One theory is that they were worried they were too close to shore and the waves were dangerously breaking so they abandoned ship in the longboat and then it sank. Okay it sounds like the dog and cat did a mute. That's rough. I kind of hope that actually the entire crew was originally just the dog and cat and everybody

just overlooked them. You know, like looking around everywhere for the captain of dogs like I'm right. I'm right here. Look at me. I am the cat. And Dawson got an adorable little bandana with a skull and crossbones on it. So cute. Yeah, he does.

Skulls chewing the bones. He's got two wooden legs. I mean. In 1738, a ship left Rotterdam to sail to America. The ship was filled with German immigrants looking to start a new life in Philadelphia. The ship, the Augusta, had a contaminated water supply and the passengers became ill,

killing 200 of the 240 of them, along with half the crew, including the captain. So far still better than Philly. LAUGHS The first mate, Andrew Brook, then took over command of the ship. The Augusta then had to deal with terrible storms that pushed the boat north and off course.

The survivors had three more months at sea with food depleting. According to some of the crew that were questioned after the fact, the now captain made the passengers pay for food rations. Okay. I mean, you gotta have an orderly system for starvation, I guess.

Capitalism is tried and true, so there you go. There it is. I'm sorry, but like, you're down 83% of your original passenger list and you're rationing food. Oh, okay guys. Uh, no more treating the place like a Brazilian steakhouse. Okay. After thirds, turn your little coaster thing over.

Save some time for tomorrow. All right. The ship ran aground on block Island, just east of Long Island, New York. Went aground during a snowstorm. The captain and the crew rode to shore, leaving the passengers in the grounded ship. Supposedly the Block Islanders convinced the captain to let the passengers off the ship.

While some of the passengers died, the ones that were left, they made it to the mainland and not much else is known about them. The boat was allegedly set on fire and scuttled. The ones that were left, they made it to the mainland and not much else is known about them. The boat was allegedly sat on fire and scuttled. A legend says that a woman was so overcome with grief and driven mad by her loss that she went down with the ship. I guess to this day people report seeing a boat on fire sailing past where that ship

went down. Man, nobody becomes a flaming ghost ship anymore. Nowadays they just write a shitty yelp review. The most famous ghost ship is the Flying Dutchman, which is likely to have originated with ships owned by the Dutch East India Company. Okay, as friend of the show Michael Marshall has pointed out, it is impossible to insert the word Dutch into anything without making it sound like a sex act. The Flying Dutchman sounds like a Dutch oven. That's true, man. 100%. Yeah. Dutch rudder. Yep.

That way, wait. The legend tells of a Dutch captain who swore- She's just working it. We're live. Who swore he would round the cape of good hope, no matter the cost. That doesn't sound as sexual, no matter the cost. That doesn't sound as sexual, I guess, maybe. Even if it meant defying God himself. The story goes, his hubris angered the heavens, and his ship was cursed to wander the oceans forever, unable to dock.

Sailors throughout history have reported sightings of the Phantom Ship, glowing eerily in the distance during storms or rough seas. An omen of doom for those who encounter it. According to legend, if another ship hailed the Flying Dutchman, its ghostly crew might attempt to pass messages to the living or even those long dead. Sightings reported in the 19th and 20th centuries describe the ship as glowing with an eerie supernatural light. In maritime lore, the appearance of this phantom vessel is said to be an ominous sign for telling

disaster for those who encounter it. Okay, I like the part about God making it unable to dock. Like I'm picturing a boat trying to pull up like a like a PS2 character trying to walk through an object. Every time you get close, the camera spins around 180 and you're further away. It keeps spinning. Next one is a story of a flying canoe.

A New Year's Eve, a group of heavy drinking voyagers got homesick and wanted to visit their significant others over a hundred leagues away. The only way that these canoes could make it that far and back by the time work started the next day was to make a pact with the devil. The devil gives him the power to paddle a canoe through the air, but if they mention God's name or touch a cross of any of the church steeples, they lose their souls. They pile in the canoe and they make good time back to

the town where the New Year's Eve party is in full swing. No one questions why or how they made it back. But after several hours of partying, they decide to climb in the canoe and paddle their way through the air back to the logging camp before their shift starts. Okay, if you're selling your soul to the devil, maybe hold out for something faster than a boat that's mostly used by mimes Right halfway home everyone gets damned because Noah has to point out that Thursday is actually named after I feel like it was such a rough day at the office Like this is this one devil just feeding shit to everybody the next day It's like everybody said my flying canoe idea was stupid and it wouldn't fetch any souls

What's out there? You got fucking guitar skills Why don't you go fuck off to a cross street in the desert somewhere make way for my fucking flying canoe He was out of tune How did you lose a violin contest where you were the judge? How did you lose a violin contest where you were the judge? The way back, the guy steering the canoe narrowly misses a church steeple because he's had too many to drink. He swerves too hard and the flying canoe plows into a tree and the person steering starts cussing and he takes the Lord's name in vain.

In one version of the story, they tie the guy up who's swearing and gag him but at the end of the story The end of the story is that they're now cursed to fly through the air in this canoe Sometimes chased by horses and wolves because why not what ghost mime goes by on your lap Man, I bet that's an awkward eternity, huh? Watch the tree. Yep, yep. No, I see it. I see it. Oh, hey guys, you know what just occurred to me? What's that? Motherfucker! Have any of you guys ever heard the word motherfucker?

I said I was sorry! Not this again. Come on. Motherfucker all we wanted. Okay. The legend of the Octavius is up next. This ship was allegedly found in October of 1775. The ship had left England for what was called the Orient in 1761. It had made it to its destination safely and on the return voyage, the captain decided to take the Northwest Passage.

The ship would then become trapped in sea ice around Alaska. The last entry in the ship log of its location was north of what is essentially the northernmost tip of Alaska. The ship was found on the other side of the continent near Greenland. Oh, hey guys. The Northwest Passage has not yet been navigated. Won't actually be navigated for almost a hundred years. So maybe we take a different route,

to avoid certain death and becoming a ghost ship. Guys. Sounds like the ship made it. On your left. Inside the vessel they supposedly found the entire crew was below deck, frozen and preserved. They went to the captain's cabin and he was still at his writing table with his pen in his hand. Jesus Christ.

In the captain's cabin was a woman and a small boy and a sailor with a tinderbox. The ship blew away in the night and was never recovered. But if you listen close in the night air, you can still hear that captain being flash frozen while writing something. His final words? Hey, what's a cool pose for dying? I'm going to write down a little. A similar story to the Octavius took place on the Genny, except it played out in the

southern hemisphere, according to legend. The Jenny became frozen in the ice in the Drake Passage in 1823, and it was discovered 17 years later by a whaling ship. The legend says that the bodies of the passengers were preserved by the Antarctic cold, frozen in place in the crew's ship compartment.

Their last words? Okay, guys, now a silly one. I don't know how I'm going to pronounce it. The Calooshay or Caloosh is a boat that might be. I like Calooshay. The Caloosh is a boat that might be based off the historic Dutch ship called the Caloosh. I don't might be based off the historic Dutch ship called the college. I don't know whatever it's Dutch, but the Sean Connery is saying the word college.

College. Here's the thing. This is where the real link to anything in reality ends. The boat has a crew that's made up of witches and demons and I'm not sure what the ratio is Between the two. Okay, that's the real part The ship suddenly appears at night intensely illuminated and robs people and kidnaps young women boats are often entranced by the siren song of orchestral music and people fall into a trance when they encounter the ship I Can't make sense of this line from Wikipedia, so I'm just gonna quote it quote, or anyone fallen victim even in a slight way turns mad with his face always

turning backwards end quote. That's confusing so like maybe it like a dog chasing its tail. The body's always turning, the face is a little bit behind. Yeah, don't get me wrong, the first time you do the exorcist head spin, it's gonna freak people out, but if it's a constant, it really loses its effect. Well, so I was picturing just the face, like inverted looking back into the skull. That's what I was thinking! That's how I thought it! The ship can transform itself into a cypress tree trunk when it doesn't want to be spotted. Oh hey, is that a totally normal cypress tree in the middle of the ocean?

I expect that to be here. Or it can also just turn into a rock. The sailors on the boat can also cast polymorph spell and turn into seals, sea lions, birds, or dolphins. The ship itself can sail at, you guessed it, supernatural speeds. And if you see the ship and you don't want to be noticed by the crew, you have to cover your mouth because they can smell your breath and track you that way. Okay, that's a fun, scary story, but can we all admit that the can turn into a rock or a tree thing

totally comes from a guy who said he saw the ship. He called everybody on to dad and they got closer and he was like, they, they can turn into a rock. Turn into a rock. Another interesting tidbit quote, many believe the sailors of this ship have a leg attached to their spine and quote, I guess they have really thin hips. I don't know. The sailors are snappy dressers and they're supposedly handsome. Although if you shake hands with them, they are cold to the touch. All right. Well, clearly everybody needs a minute to reconcile handsome with legs on their spine. So for um, for a time, make break for some apropos of nothing.

["The Flying Dutchman Theme"] Greetings, Captain. Wife, you're the crew of the Flying Dutchman. Indeed we are. And I have a message for ye to carry back for me. What is it? Tell Elizabeth my heart is still hers. Oh that's nice. Will you tell her? Yeah yeah uh sorry I actually don't know a lot of history. What year did the ship go down? 1604 What's whoo, oh it's um 2025 right now whoa

So no Elizabeth that probably not no I could look up her like great great great great grandkids on Facebook if you want what's a Facebook? Well, it doesn't matter. Um, do you have any sort of like a large-scale wisdom? Want to pass on to future generations on We can tell them that. Yeah, like something for the future. What about a poultice for smallpox? I had a very good one. Oh yeah, that'll be good. Isn't smallpox gone? Dude, wait, great, smallpox is gone?

Yeah, sorry. No, no, I'm glad to hear it. Right, yeah. Science! Sure, yeah. Sayon. Sure, yeah. So I think we're gonna head out. Yeah, we should get in. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, it being a ghost bad bad sure thanks and we're back when we left off Cecil was totally narking about me and the witch's sweet magical log boat.

So the street boat. Anything else you want to ruin? Plenty. All right, here we go. This next one is the Eliza battle. This is one of the greatest maritime disasters in the Tom Bigby River. The ship set out from Columbus, Mississippi, and was heading to multiple stops on the river

as it was heading to the Gulf of Mexico. It was late February, and the ship was full of bales of cotton. The steamboat was laden with passengers. It was a cold night, and the temperature dropped 40 degrees from the previous daytime high. Some of the bales caught fire as the ship was traveling down the river and due to the winds the fire quickly became an inferno. The lifeboat was cut off from

the passengers so many just dressed for the cold and waited to see if they could the boat could hit shore but the fire moved too quickly and the passengers had to escape into the icy waters. Some people used cotton bales as makeshift boats, but many were not lucky. And 33 people died from drowning or exposure in the cold. Okay, Jack could have easily fit on that cotton bale. Okay? This is not a love story. It's a murder. Why are we clapping? The ship itself sank in the water and the hull is still in the riverbed 30 feet underwater but on cold nights and along some river in Mississippi a ship that looks like Ghost Riders head

Floats down the river in the exact same location of the original set the original ship sank The sightings are a harbinger of ill omens and are said to foretell impending disaster. Okay, well the bad omens thing is cheating when you're in Mississippi. Something bad is always happening in Mississippi. Look, when a ghostly flaming skull comes traipsing down the river, that's not a bad omen. That's just a bad. It's already like, it's famine and shit. It's nothing. There's a fucking ghost fucking ghost rider's head. The HMS Resolute was a 19th century British vessel that was sent to the Arctic waters

to search for a lost expedition there. It was dispatched with other boats to find Sir John Franklin, an explorer who had not returned from the far north of Canada and Greenland. Tom, relax. Are you taking notes? While there, the boat itself got stuck in the ice away from the rest of the boats on the expedition and the sailors had to abandon it in an ice floe

and march across pack ice to reach the ships not stuck for the winter. Hey guys. Hey, anyone notice there's nothing up here? I mean, we keep dying trying to see what's up here but it's always just, you know, it's nothing up here? I mean, we keep dying trying to see what's up here, but it's always just I see, you know, it's nothing. It's just increasingly worse versions of nothing Okay, not to go down the ultimate rabbit hole Tom

But I recently learned from Heath that they thought there was a giant entrance to the hollow earth Jesus The next year the resolute was found by a whaling ship and brought to New London, Connecticut. Senator James Mason of Virginia introduced a bill in the U.S. Congress to pay for the restoration of the Resolute and give it back to the British as a show of national courtesy. After the ship was repaired and sent back to Britain, where it served in local waters until it was decommissioned and then it was salvaged for timbers. Wood from that ship would go on to make the resolute desk,

which was gifted to Rutherford B. Hayes as a gesture of thanks and that desk still sits and is used in the White House today. They get the old chip back they're like okay this is just like just in the way now. You can't throw it out. You might visit. It's like a Christmas card. You have to keep an upfront. Make a desk and give it back to them again. Well, but I feel like England is looking at it now going like, look, if we knew

you were going to let that asshole use it, we'd have kept the fucking boat. A ship financed by a group of Quakers in Philadelphia called the 21 Friends was returning home with a load of lumber and then it was rammed by another ship. The ship was damaged off the coast of North Carolina and the ship was abandoned by the crew leaving it and its cargo to the mercy of the sea. After the collision the ship was sighted on both sides of the Atlantic over the next few years and the ship finally washed ashore in Ireland They salvaged both the cargo and the boat and it became a fishing vessel for the next 15 years

Yeah, still had a note from the other ship under the wiper In 1884 Royal Navy vessel the HMS Mallard Spotted a ship acting erratically, moving unpredictably, and was not answering any hails. They boarded the SV Resolvin, which was a merchant vessel. The ship's log indicated that the last entry was just hours before. There was a bit of damage to the ship.

One of the parts of the mast had been damaged, but it was mostly superficial. The lifeboat was missing, but there wasn't any reason why the ship was abandoned. The galley fire was still lit and the lamps were all burning too. One theory is that the passengers and the crew were not used to sailing in water with icebergs, and when the ship received minor damage from an iceberg, the crew decided to abandon the vessel. No bodies were ever found, and the ship was towed to shore and refitted with a new crew. Three years later, the Resolvin would wreck

off the coast in Nova Scotia with a load of lumber. I love that that news comes across in the original crew is like, see, we told you, just like we were early. It's gonna crack. Early, but fuck. We talked about a shipwreck in an episode where Noah talked about the history

of a graveyard in Washington. The ship was the SS Valencia and its crash and the rescue was just a comedy of errors with several fatalities, mainly because they used a scorpion harpoon rope gun. One fact about the wreck is that one of the lifeboats was found 27 years after the disaster floating around in the area where the ship went down. And the article notes that the paint was in still good condition and the boat was in good shape.

Okay, I hope the painter guy was still around at that point and started making more money. Yeah, a bunch of people died, but like that paint job nailed it. The ship, the governor par was carrying a load of lumber to Buenos Aires from Nova Scotia During a bad storm it lost its mizzen and spanker Mizzen and spanker this episode of ghost ships brought to you by boner pills America That's a mast and a sail Long time since I was that disappointed by a clarification I was like, oh, I see why you saved this one for towards the end.

A sailor and a captain died, but the rest of the crew were rescued by another boat. The damage was so significant that they decided to let the ship sink, but it didn't. Instead, the boat floated around the Atlantic for many years, quote, she remained a derelict and had menaced to navigation drifting as far as the Canary Islands." At several points other ships tried to sink it or tow it to shore but neither worked. The boat is listed as Ultimate Fate Unknown. I think it sank.

It probably sank. You're probably right. The SS Baychimo. I don't know if I'm saying that correctly, but that's how I'm saying it. A trading vessel that became trapped in pack ice while it was loaded with furs. Stop sailing up there wherever there's pack ice. Do a little farm to table for your fur jackets. I don't know. Stop going there. The crew briefly abandoned the ship and went to a nearby town to spend a couple days. The ship eventually broke free of the ice and then it was caught back up again in more ice. The crew was stuck on the

boat and had to be rescued with an aircraft and the ship was just left there. About a month and a half later, a blizzard hit the area and the ship disappeared. It was spotted a few days after this by a local Inuit seal hunter and several crew members found the ship and liberated the best furs from the hold. The ship was abandoned in November of 1931. And then it would have a very eventful few decades. So I included this little bulleted point sort of diary of the ship from Wikipedia. A few days after it disappeared, the ship was found 45 miles south of where she was lost, but again it was ice-packed. After several months, she

was spotted again about 300 miles to the east. In January, the following year, she was seen floating peacefully nearshore by a man traveling to Nome with his dog sled team. A few months after that- What would aggressive floating be? I wonder. It's got the Jaws music behind her. Man. A few months after that,

she was seen by a company of prospectors. In March of 1933, she was found by a group of first peoples who boarded her and were trapped aboard for 10 days by a freak storm. Okay. It feels like the people who were waiting outside when they found it just like bailed as a prank.

A storm happens that fast and they just run? On August 11th of 1933, she was sighted 12 miles off the settlement of Wainwright, Alaska. She was boarded by local inhabitants, as well as the crew of the MS Trader. A whale boat and some furniture and some other items were salvaged. Can't believe somebody was going to throw out this couch. In August of 1933, the Hudson Bay Company heard she was still afloat, but too far a sea to salvage.

And in July of 1934, she was boarded by a group of explorers on a schooner. August of 1935, she started an off-Broadway run of No No Nanette. In September of 1935, she was spotted off the Alaskan coast. Why is that one so much more vague than the others? Right? She's somewhere in Alaska. This is the part of her career she doesn't like to talk about or something? This is the year she was a podcaster.

Yeah. Yeah, right. That's why we don't hear from her for another four years, I guess, in this list, right? In November of 1939, she was boarded by Captain Hugh Polson in an attempt to salvage her, but creeping ice flows intervened and Polson was forced to abandon her. She was spotted numerous times over the following years, but always eluded capture. Just a dog and a cat on the radio. Leave us alone.

We're ocean gods. Stop it. Mutiny. In March, now this is where it skips, in March of 1962. Shut the fuck up. She was seen drifting along the Buford Sea coast by a group of Inuit.

She was found frozen in pack ice in 1969, 38 years after she was abandoned. This is the last sighting of the ship. And in 2006, the Alaskan government began work on a project to solve the mystery of the ghost ship of the Arctic and located whether she is still a floater on the ocean floor, has she's not been found yet. So, all right. So if you had to summarize what you've learned in one sentence, what would it be? A ghost ship is always in the last place you leave it. Always. The water.

Are you ready for the quiz? What about the flying ones? Okay, that's fair. I am ready for the quiz. All right, Cecil. A lot of people seem to abandon ship way before these ships sink. They do, man. They really do.

I bet they feel, A, stupid, B, foolish, or C, nothing. They're all dead. Oh, I'm using that for a bunch of our essays now. Bro, MBD all of the above. All of the above. All of the above. Alright, Cecil, aside from obviously mutiny on the bounty, what's the best movie about a cat taking over a boat? A. The Perfect Storm. B. The Hunt for Shed October.

Or C. Puss in Doss Boots. Oh, that's so good! Fantastic. Oh, that's good. October or see puts in dust booths I'm gonna go with it's gotta be a the perfect storm well done correct all right see so what's the worst part of brewing a gross ship a the lack of spirit in the crew be having to count you that was the good one so fucking in be having to count your cargo in skeleton it's a good I like that one actually solid I like that way see your treasure is always crimped oh current now say I was mine the hardest thing I've got it the hardest line I'll ever deliver right here. Eli won somehow.

Actually the script says that you are proud of me? You're proud of me? All right, well I want an essay from Tom next week. All right. All right, well then that you shall have. For Cecil, Eli and Tom, I'm Noah thanking you for hanging out with us today. We're going to be back next week. By then Tom will be an expert on something else.

Between now and then you should check out Cecil's new show, the NoRogan Experience, KNOW Rogan. All other show checking can wait. And if you'd like to help keep this show going, you can make a per episode donation at patreon.com slash CitationPod or leave a five star review everywhere you can. And if you'd like to get in touch with us, check out past episodes, connect with us on social media or check the show notes. Be sure to check out citation pod.com. But just, you know, that day without TikTok really

woke me up to like, oh, like this is dopamine addiction. You know, like I felt it in myself. Sure. Sure. My daughter died of scarlet fever. Oh, okay, you feel how that's you being a storytopper, right? Like that's... Right, right, sorry. Sorry. It has nothing to do with what I said.