Citation Needed - Lizzie Borden [True Crime Special]

Episode Date: February 26, 2020

Lizzie Andrew Borden (July 19, 1860 – June 1, 1927) was an American woman who was the main suspect in the August 4, 1892 axe murders of her father and stepmother in Fall River, Massachusetts. Borden was tried and acquitted of the murders. --- Our theme song was written and performed by Anna Bosnick. If you’d like to support the show on a per episode basis, you can find our Patreon page here.  Be sure to check our website for more details.

I guess she's in like a, I don't know, like a fugue state. That can't be what the show's about. I can't be. It just can't be. Well, if it's not, they're just remaking I love Lucy with Wanda and Vision. I mean, I, I would watch that. We all watch that. Oh, yeah, I mean, okay.

Good evening, gentlemen. Mother. Oh, God, it's the smell. She's not a ghost, no. That's right, gentlemen. And the spirit of tonight's mystery, it's the smell. Jesus, dude. That's right, gentlemen. And the spirit of tonight's mystery it appears that someone took a dump in the center of our studio.

The question is, who? It was you. Yeah, very obviously it was you, Eli. No mystery, how's this a mystery? It's always, or was it clue number one? Eli, you are literally the only person in the studio. It's true. Yeah. And the other clues are, you texted me a picture of you 15 minutes ago

with the message, hey, Bestie, taking a shit in the middle of the studio, just letting you know in case you did a hint for my fun mystery. So that's the other incriminating. Or did I? You did, you text, I can fucking show it to you. No, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, I get it. He's using the shit in the middle of the room

as a misdirection to cover up like a super cool murder mystery. I mean, look at all that blood, right? I mean, that has to be what I think I gotta figure it out. No, no, Tom, that's just, that's just how we like shit. Fuck, for real? Yeah. Oh, do go to the doctor. I'll drive.

No. Hello and welcome to Citation Needed. The podcast where we choose a subject, we have a single article about it on Wikipedia and pretend we're experts because this is the internet and that's how it works now. I'm Noah and I'll be asking the questions tonight but I'll need some accomplices. First up, the man who puts the clever and cleaver, a seesaw! Being one of the sharpest people on citation news is like getting the award for most outstanding tumor. It's just... All right, great.

Right, no, they give that one to the tumor that sticks out the furthest. Yeah, also joining us is the man who puts the bligh in the sling blade. You know what, are these paters frowning the same oil as animal products? No, no, no. And last but certainly not least, the man who puts the lush back in French flush cup saw tau.

Lush, because they don't shave down there? That's all. Oh, man. It's a thick, no, it's cause of my drinking. More than, oh, and I don't shave down there. All right. I prefer verdant. And before we get to the juicy bits, I want to thank our patrons for making this show possible. They're fucking awesome.

If you'd like to learn how to be fucking awesome to stick around to the end of the show And with that out of the way, tell us Eli what person plays think concept phenomenon or event what would be talking about today? Well, thanks to patrons Suzanne and D We'll be talking about Lizzy Borden all right Cecil you read the article are you ready to feign a little expertise well with this level of patronage the Expertise required is partly reading a what-capiti article.

So yeah. I mean, all right. Okay, all right. So where does the story of Lizzie Gordon begin? Let's start by talking about Lizzie's day. Oh, Jesus, are you my fucking therapist? I told you, everybody has that dream. That's a normal dream.

Tell us about your dreams, Tom. Lizzie's father was Andrew, and his family was pretty wealthy, but he was not awarded any kind of head start fund. He did eventually, after some hardships as a young man, become quite affluent. He made most of his fortune in property development, textile mills and banks after getting a start in furniture making and casket construction, I was going to write in here interesting, but then I realized that everyone who makes money off of the funeral industry eventually dies. Okay, I hate to be the Noah. I mean, I really do hate to be the Noah, but

everyone who makes money, not just off the funeral industry, they all die. That's true. So eventually Lizzie's dad was low. Yeah, dad's in my right. And at the time of his death, he was the equivalent of a multi millionaire, but he didn't live like it. His house was not in the most fashionable neighborhood. Most of the rich people built in the hill section of Fall River, Massachusetts. The board and house was still in a good area, but just not the best. Is it just me or a Cecil consciously trying not to piss off a listener who lives in that neighborhood right now? I'm not gonna say.

Side of China. Okay. The house also lacked some accommodations, like indoor plumbing or electricity, but that even the middle-class people had as commonplace items in their home. So Andrew was known as a frugal penny-pinchertite. And no indoor plumbing, that's not the only thing he was pinching, Jesus. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Well, you know what they say about real estate? Location is everything. But I think they usually say this assuming you already have a toilet. Yeah, right. Because like, on the way, like toilets are the first ever thing. That's everything first.

It really is. I like how he was only known as a frugal penny-pitcher, Like, toilets are the first ever. That's everything. That's everything first. It really is. I like how it was only known as a frugal penny pitcher, but, you know, when someone asks you if you no longer want to have your house filled with buckets of shit and your answer is to ask the price, you are a frugal penny. That's a good label. Andrew was married to Sarah and they had three children, Emma, Alice, and Lizzie. There were 10 years between their youngest and their oldest.

Their middle child, Alice died at two years old. And five years later, when Lizzie is two, her mother dies. Now Lizzie was close to her older sister Emma. And Emma was something of a mother figure to young Lizzie. Really let the weight of the axe do the work for you, Lizzie. There you go. You got it. I love you included the dead middle sister that doesn't play into the story at all.

In case this story wasn't sad enough. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm sad. I'm both ends with the sadness. Sorry.

When Lizzie is five, her dad remarries a woman named Abby Gray. Abby was 30 at the time and came from a family that was not doing as well as the boardens. It is suspected that Abby married Andrew for the money. Lizzie and her new stepmom were not on the best terms, and young Lizzie referred to her stepmother as Ms. Borden. Okay, sure, that doesn't sound very warm, but this was like the late 1800s.

Children were basically like small meat tokens that you feed into industrial machines at this point. So it's true. God, I was born in the wrong era. That's so many meat tokens. Oh. Now during her young life, Lizzie is very jealous of her rich relatives.

They are living the life, which at the time was running a bath from a tap instead of heating the water on a stove. Lizzie actually start shoplifting in her early years and it becomes such a normal occurrence that the local store warns the workers just to let her go and bill her dad later. Conversely, Lizzie is also a churchgoer throughout her life.

She eventually winds up teaching Sunday school. All right. I know she's bitching about not being like running water rich, but like she is still stuff and bill me for it later rich. So she's doing okay. Yeah, she is. And I'm just over here trying to figure out how in graduating kids with the Christian religion is conversed to be in a thief. Lizzie know, Lizzie also gets into it where there's stepmom over money too.

At one point, her father up and gives his wife a house. Wait, like a different house than the one he already was looking at. He has, he has several properties. None of them with toilet. The wife then lets her sisters stay there. The two kids, Lizzie and Emma confront the father about it, realizing that the best thing you can do in that situation is buy your way out of trouble. Andrew basically gives his kids a property for a dollar.

Then they sell the property back to the dad for $5,000. And I know you're what you're probably thinking here. Why not just move out and go into the new digs? Oh, actually, I was thinking why not just give the kids $5,000? We have this charade of real estate transaction. I suspect it's probably for Texas. Anyway, why not just move out to the new digs? Well, it's in 1892 and women didn't live alone until their parents died back then. But they were allowed to turn over real estate investment

with the monopoly money. They're dad gave them. I'm confused. I'm confused. They made some money on that and that was nice, but the real fortune came when they sold the how-a-made 500,000% profit selling real estate for. That's what real bucks were. Before we get into the gruesome deaths

of Paa Borden and his lovely bride, I just wanna talk about some dead birds. Everything okay at home, Cecil? Yeah. Okay. Link twice. And. I just want to talk about some dead birds. Everything okay at home, Cecil? Right. Okay. Link twice. And in May of 1892, before the whole property takes these backsees thing, her dad killed a bunch of pigeons

in the barn with a hatchet. And I guess pigeons back then were flightless and legless or this guy was just fucking money with a small ass I don't know it's one or the other In any case, Lizzie had just recently built a roost for pigeons And this is one of those things And my mind is just throwing them like John Wick I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know fucking pigeon with, I know you killed one pigeon. Just a mad stick out of a bunch of them. Yeah, I'm just swinging a line up on a string for you.

He just shows up to one of those fucking stupid, axe throwing places that are popping up. Everybody's like, I got this. I got, you guys won't believe this shit. Jesus. It's unbelievable. Anyway, he murders a bunch of pigeons, but Lizzie had just recently built a roost for pigeons.

And this is one of those pasky, disputed facts of the case. So it might not be real. I suspect that if it did happen, they probably got into a squabble over it. Squabble. Squab, touched it. It's a pigeon. Anyway, I just love the visual.

No, no, I get it. Anna and I had the same fight when she joined Habitat for Humanities. So yeah, they can be. Yeah. Really, really want to be about it. Yeah. So it's a really wanting to be about it. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a couple of days before the murder.

Lizzie at this point is a 32 year old spinster and still living in her family home. They have a modified two flat where Lizzie lives upstairs in the front of the house and dad and his wife live in the upstairs in the back of the house. They don't take meals together because Lizzie and her stepmom

Abby kind of hate each other, so the whole house is always on a brink of a shriek match. Well, you tell Lizzie, I am not speaking to her. Well, you tell Abby, she's a fat cow. Well, you tell Lizzie that no one wants her, she'll die alone. You first. Wait, what? Nothing. You tell me nothing. So everyone in the house gets mysteriously ill. Okay. Or in 1800's terms, ill. Yeah. That's true. It's you don't know how that works.

Yeah. It's the step on immediately thinks that the household's poisoned as our husband wasn't the most likable dude, but other people suspect food poisoning from the lamb that they left on the stove and ate over a period of days. Oh, yummer. But it has some good stove lamb. So does the lamb. He got so full. Oh, Jesus.

But anyway, it's bad enough for the stepmom, and she calls the doctor from across the street, and he comes over, and he does nothing, because it's the wrong moonsign, or whatever doctors did there. And we're like, doing nothing is actually the safest thing at this point in history for a doctor to do. Yeah, he comes over, he's like, lady, you got a case of it's 1892. You're fucking legs work.

You should be happy about it. Well, second night's sec, you still have to entertain your relatives when they come by on a Wednesday night. So when John Morris, Lizzie's blood uncle comes by, the boarden's just put him up for the night. Everyone gets up Thursday morning, August 4th, 1892 and has breakfast. Well, not everyone. Lizzie doesn't go down for breakfast

because she hates her stepmother. So then the uncle leaves to go buy a pair of oxen. That's the wickedness. This is awesome. The Wikipedia says this happened around the oddly specific time of 8.48 AM. Oh, what? And Andrew leaves for work at 9 AM.

All right, honey, I love you. Don't get murdered. I know I always say that, but double extra don't get murdered today. Okay, bye. So that leaves Abby, Lizzie, and the maid Maggie Sullivan. I haven't so much trouble reconciling the maid with no running water.

That's right. Well, she the maid with no running water. Right. Well, she runs to go get the water. It's water. It's mine. Abby sends the maid out to wash the windows and then goes upstairs to make the gas bed. Abby, according to forensics, was looking at whoever killed her and the first blow with the weapon was enough to do just that. The hatchet hit her in the side of the head by the ear and then she fell and the killer hit her with the ax like a random

prime number of times 17. I don't know. I don't know what. So like what I'm eventually ax murdered as I'm sure I will be I hope it's doing something awesome and not doing chores the mage should have been. Yeah. Also, why are you making the bed? You have a maid. A mug up on the wrong piece. He married her because she's made version 2.0. That's what I also I've done. At 10.30, Andrew comes back from his bank job

and he finds the house is locked. That's 10.30 AM by the way, he left for work at nine. I know. He's working out though. He didn't get it. Yeah.m. By the way, he left for work at nine. He's working out. Get it. Yeah. Yeah. So he starts going with commute. Horribly no less, you know,

the bank checker just shows up. Yep. Still a bank. All right, everybody. He's a doctor for families who just been poisoned. I'm sorry, it was a doctor for families who just been poisoned. So he starts going to each door outside and it's latched from the inside so he can't get it and the maid goes over and unlocks the door and she hears Lizzie laughing from the upstairs and this would be odd because the stepmother's body at this point is in full view of anyone upstairs. The maid is super tired after letting in the dad in

and washing the windows for an hour and a half. So she goes upstairs to take a nap. Well, she's got a great job too, man. 18 pounds too, was the shit. What the maid like goes upstairs, sees the body. She's like, I don't deal with that shit after a snooze. This bitch is all black. I'm taking my 15 though.

I'm still taking my 15. I do want to point out that the Mades quarters were away from the body. So she had no opportunity to see the body. I did want to say that. So weirdly, their house had two stairways that went upstairs. There's a bedroom for Lizzy on the front, the dad in the brighter and back. And there's a door that connects the two,

but it's nailed shut. Wait, wait, wait. So yeah, it's really crazy. This is like a fucking house of horrors. And then the guest bedroom was in the front by Lizzy. So that's where she went up. You couldn't actually get to the back of the house. So I didn't want to say that she didn't just walk up,

see the dead body, be like, fuck it, I'm passing the entrance. She didn't see the dead body, be like, fuck it, I'll pass it. I'm just interested in some of the dead bodies. She didn't see the dead bodies. Oh, well, Tucker. Yeah. Look at, I don't care. Washing windows is hard. Now Lizzie's version of the events is a bit different.

She greeted her dad in the sitting room and told him that her stepmom Abbie was off visiting a sick friend. And she took her dad's boots off and he laid down for a nap at 10 30 a.m. Hatch it in that for later. Anyway, she then says she went out to the barn to look for sinkers for a phishing trip. She was planning. Okay, is there anyone else here hung up on just like the weird image of Lizzie popping off dad's boots and then putting them to bat? Was he a toddler?

Was that was your dad a toddler? He was because he only worked for an hour. Yeah. He needed now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck. Hellstakes should map a 10th or yeah. Yeah. It's a hard day. We're own shoes. He did it. He walks all the way to the bank and then back again. Maggie wakes up to Lizzie screaming. And this is a quote, Maggie, come quick, father's dead. Someone came in and killed him, end quote. She runs downstairs, Maggie runs downstairs and sees that dad with his boots still on, sort of half sitting, half lying, all dead on the couch. He was hitting the face and it cut his eye in half.

And then he was, that just killed him instantly. And then he was hit nine or ten more times with a quote from the Wikipedia article Hatch it like weapon and quote so Hatch it are there hatchet like weapons that aren't I guess I'm pretty sure we can tell which version of this story is true based on Whether the corpse had boots on or not.

Like that's just a weird detail to hang your lie. But I know. The police were called and they showed up properly. They determined that the murder upstairs happened between 9.30 and 10 a.m. from the blood congealing. Okay. Yeah. I'm not going to go ahead and put a lot of stock here in the forensic science with time

period when like doctor and barber are the same word. I know. So no. Yeah. And then they had about a 20 minute window for Andrews murder. So between 1050 and 1110 because when they arrived, he was actually still bleeding. So they round up some suspects. The first suspects of the day did not include Lizzie,

but that would soon change. All right, well, all the dead already happened, so what could possibly be interesting enough to carry the last half of this episode? Find out the answer on the other side of apropos. Oh, of nothing. I think that's presumptuous that she thought I carried the first half. Crazy story, huh?

Yeah, for sure. Wait till you hear about the trial, man. So, so do you think she did it? Lizzy? Yeah, Lizzy. Well, I don't know. I'm not sure. There's conflicting evidence, you know. Maybe she did it. She had a lot to gain from it, but it's really hard to just sort of look at this, but she said she didn't do it, Cecil. Right, but most murderers say that they didn't do it. So I... Oh, yeah, so you're saying you don't believe women, okay? I got it.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying maybe she didn't do it, too. I just... Oh, so you're saying that a woman is too weak to do it then? Like, she's some kind of delicate flower, and she wouldn't be capable of it. No. No. No. No. No. I mean Maybe she did do it, but it's pretty tough for a woman to are you gonna try to mansplain what a woman is capable of I'm not gonna make any assumptions about it All I know is that they were killed by some kind of deranged murder who really hated these people that is for sure

Oh, I see so whoever did it was probably super emotional, like women get ice fizzy where we're going. Oh, okay, I am just done talking about this. It's well, you should be. So, uh, Lizzy, how was your day? Oh, it was awesome. Let me think, uh, I sat around this house doing nothing all day. Oh, and then I sat around doing nothing some more. Well, um, does sound rather relaxing?

Oh, yeah, everybody loves to be a literal prison of hate. Fucking sandals, Jamaica right up here in Massachusetts. Why don't you try some sewing? Oh, fuck. Yes, sewing I forgot all about the joys and fun of Sewing because every so-tall is sewing asshole. I have literally done all the medial tasks available to me Uh Abby Hello darling Lizzie here. I think she's looking for something to sew?

Probably. You're pretty if you did something with your life instead of sitting around like the brick of shit you are. Fuck you. I'm gonna kill you with that. Hatch it like weapon. Well, do you mean a hatchet then? Yes.

And we're back when we last left off all the characters in the story, but one we're dead. And I feel like she's going for a who done it from here on out. So this should be interesting. Oh really. So the first suspects were the main Maggie Sullivan, the uncle John Morris and some or just some rando. But after questioning Lizzie, they added her to Lizzie offered a story that was not consistent.

When they first questioned her, she said that she either heard a groan or a scraping noise or a distress call when she came into the house. Yeah, one of, yeah, right. I know there's one of this sounds that Eli makes when he takes a shit. I just don't remember when she was a girl or a straight noise or a distress call. There's one of those things. She's sitting here, weeping, that's weird. But later, loon, it sounds like a loon.

Anyone else here, a loon? Eli's one of those things. You pull the string and it shits and then it makes the sound. That's crazy. Yeah. Or those chickens, there's rubber chickens. But later that day, she said she didn't hear anything at all. She said that she took her dad's boots off, but he died with his boots on.

The police also didn't like her demeanor. She was calm, even toned, and didn't faint when she saw the body. They also failed to check her for blood stains or really look around Lizzie's room for any clues. It's just like, all right, we're the police before Fingerprint's forensic, so did you do it? Maybe. All right, you're free to go. I'm telling you, Johnson, we're never gonna solve this one.

This is fucking myth, this is a real head scratcher here. It's so shit. The police find a fucking arsenal of hatchets and axes in the basement. Like, proper level of axes here, two hatchets, two axes, a hatchet had in a broken handle. One of these, the broken hatchet, looked like the murder weapon. The break was fresh and it was sprinkled with ash to make it look like it was dusty and it hadn't been used in a long time. So, well, yeah, that's the one advantage. The pre-finger prints and DNA cops had was the fact that criminals have always been

nobody will guess the ash was applied afterwards levels of shit. Three people spent the night at the Borden murder house the day of the killing. John Morse stayed in the attic guest room, not the guest room he stayed in the previous night. Lizzie's friend Alice stayed with Lizzie as well. An officer was placed outside the residence that night and said, quote, he had seen Borden enter the cellar with Alice carrying a carousine lamp and a sloped pale. He stated he saw both women exit the cellar after which boredom returned alone, though he was unable to see what she was doing. He stated that it appeared she was bent over a sink and quote, and his appearance like,

well, why didn't stop her? See what she was doing? Uh, because I was placed on watch, uh, watching placed on do. Thank you. The next morning, Alice came into the board and kitchen and Lizzie was there tearing up a dress. When Alice asked what she's doing, Lizzie replied that the dress had pain on it

and she was gonna burn it, which seems like a perfectly non-murdery way to dispose of the dress. What? I can see why this is a mystery that's caught the imagination of so many for so long It's fucking 2020 if I get paint on my own clothes I don't go outside and shred and burn them and I can find you close

Like I just use them next time I paint in 18 whatever the fuck when you don't have flushing toilets I'm not saying she's 100% guilty. I'm saying she's fucking 100% guilty. Okay, Lizzie at this point is the prime suspect and is summoned to an inquest four days after the murders. They dose her up with some morphine to calmer down and refuse her the chance to have an attorney present. Because fuck that noise.

That's right. Yeah. They start asking her questions and she can't get anything straight in the inquest. She tells three different versions of what happened that day when dad came home and she's constantly contradicting herself. Three days later, she has served the warrant and jailed a grand jury. Here's the evidence in early November and she's indicted on December 2nd, 1892. Well, that's it. We tried getting her irredeemably high on morphine and she's indicted on December 2nd, 1892. Well, that's it. We tried getting her irredeemably high on morphine. And she's still not making any sense.

Yeah. That's for never. We're never going to straight answer out of this one. Meanwhile, cut to the kid from making a murderer. He's going like, what? She got morphine. This is not fucking fair. Trial takes place in June and it's fucking weird, but we will get to that. Borden spares no expense in the defense attorneys.

There's a team of three and the most notable was George D. Robinson. He happened to be the previous governor of Massachusetts and he appointed the judge hearing this trial. Oh, wow. Mostly, the trial is described as a bunch of circumstantial evidence and several eyewitnesses and no real threat of what actually occurred. Some people placed Lizzie in the house, others placed her outside during the time of the murder.

Physical evidence was also not consistent. One police officer said that the hatchet handle was in the house. The other said it wasn't. One thing that was never disputed was the burning and tearing of the dress. That was mentioned by the prosecution and her friend while on the stand but the defense never challenged that. Just for giggles, I really fucking hope she didn't do it

and just picked an unlucky date and Marie Kondo or wore two clothes. Did not spark joy. That's for sure. Well, we should put, to be clear here, like where was the axe handle we found before we knew it was part of the murder weapon and was your dad, dad, or not when you took his boots off our different levels of inconsistent.

Okay. Yes, everyone had wrong answers, but some of them were wrong. Okay, this is where against fucking bizarre. They removed the heads of the deceased and boiled them to get all the skin off and then brought in the skulls into court as evidence during the triumphant. Oh my god. And Eli city came up with that idea himself for the Jean-Bernet live shows on this fucking live. The police that were upset that Gordon didn't faint when she saw the bodies were probably overjoyed because she looked to faint when the prosecution appeared for act five of Hamlet or whatever with her dad's skull.

Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. They took the supposed hatchet head and then they tried to match it up with the skull damage in front of everybody because if you didn't fit, you had to a quit. Exactly right. That's what I was thinking. One of the judge to be just like, okay, so you boiled the skin off of two dead people

to prove this kind of looks like a hatchet wound. Right. Just want to make sure. Yep. Okay. That was it. Okay. You and Jail, can I at the end of this? Can we throw your ass in jail? I just want to read it the next bit right from Wikipedia because it is fucking so 1890s. Quote, evidence was excluded that Borden had sought to purchase Prusac acid. Reportedly for cleaning a seal skin clog. She tried to get it from a drugist

on the day before the murders. A judge ruled that the incident was too remote in time to have any connection, end quote. And just knowing, I just got a note here, Prusic acid is a highly poisonous substance. It's the main ingredient in cyclone B. Okay, the day before the murders, that's too remote. What timeline

would have accepted was he supposed to doordash the fucking shit to her house? Also, what the fuck was on her cloak lime deposits? That's my spillunking. This trial was also all of the newspapers. People wanted to read about the high society girl that hatched a brilliant plan to kill her parents. Okay, for the record, the brilliant plan was to hit them with a hatchet until they died. It was okay. It was 1892 brilliant. Okay, but a lot of boots had to be considered. Yeah, but it also for the record, by the way, high society didn't necessarily imply flushable toilet paper. That is true.

That is true. It's not a brilliant play in the high society. Okay, all right, fair. All right, we're taking that whole line. Got it. All right, the papers were also full of rampant speculation and conjecture and they wouldn't stop after her acquittal, which took an hour and a half of deliberation, by the way. The papers talked about it for years after and there was always an anniversary story.

Lizzie was ostracized from society, too. The week after her father died, was murdered. She went to the church and every row of pews around her was empty. She bought a new house, called it MapleCraft, started calling herself Lizbith of MapleCraft, but it didn't help. She was an outcast until she died in 1927. Yeah, it's really too bad because if this had happened today, she at least would have gotten a Netflix special that suggested an owl maybe did it.

I'll do it. At least a podcast. At least a podcast. Now, since then, the crime people have been speculating about who committed the murders and it wouldn't be an episode of Citation Needed if we didn't wildly speculate and he didn't say interesting. Here we, here are some of these theories. An author suggested that Borden may have killed her parents in a fugue state.

Okay, so that one is where she doesn't. Yeah, yeah. Another suggested that Borden killed her dad because of years of sexual abuse. Still her, you know, killing those. Yeah, she did that. She did that. Yeah, circumsand. Lizzy was caught in a compromising position

with the maid and killed the two because of that. Not exonerating Lizzy with these theories. No, not in those. She kills that one too. Not so far. This next one. John Morse killed them both. He was not someone the family was close to.

He was the brother to Andrews' dead wife, and he had an absurdly perfect and over detailed alibi for the death of Abby Borden, which included the identification numbers of the trolleys he's rode on to buy oxen. Hey, you guys want to know the license plate plates or the cars I saw when I was definitely not murdering? Uh, no. Go. Okay.

All right. Well, that sounds bad, but go ahead. You have spent, you have definitely spent the night with relatives and then thought to yourself afterwards. Holy shit, I better nail down my alibi tomorrow in case these were the fuckers kill each other, right? That's fair. Selfies everywhere. Yeah.

There's another where the maid killed them because she was super pissed that on such a hot day she had to go outside and wash windows. She comes again. I told you, motherfuckers, I don't do windows. I need a nap, bitches. All right, another author claimed that Lizzie's sister Emma, who was in another city at a house party, came back to the house and killed her parents, only to go back to that house party and wait for word that had happened.

Yeah, Emma, you were, you were in the bathroom for like an hour just now. Oh, yes, just a drop of juice like you do But you weren't covered in blood like that when you went in my head old Chipotle. Oh Chipotle Chipotle Three weeks it's been on the stove. The maid, after everything was over, left the family and started working for another. She eventually married a man while working as a maid

and moved to Montana. Supposedly on our deathbed, she confessed to her sister, quote, that she had changed her testimony on the stand in order to protect Borden, end quote. What the world, she protect Borden for? Did she need a reference? So what?

I know. The stakes are very high right here. No one was ever convicted of the murders, meaning it's a complete mystery, just like Nicole Simpson and who actually did extort you crane to manufacture dirt on Biden or never. No, never know. Right before the trial started

there was a copycat murder that took place, but the person they convicted of the crime was not in fall river at the time of the board murders. It's impossible to know who was the killer, but many people suspect Lizzie. The investigation and the trial seemed like an absolute cock up. And who knows what would have happened to forensic science at the time was more sophisticated

than a large magnifying glass in a divining rod. Lizzie still lives on in a fucking scary goddamn nursery rhyme, which I'm going to read for you. Lizzie Borden took an axe and gave her mother 40 wax. When she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41. Andrew Borden now is dead. Lizzie hit him on the head. Up in heaven, he will sing on the gallows she will swing. God damn that nursery rhyme is fucked up. You don't want kids to think they have that kind of power. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But honestly, it's only more fucked up than Peter, Peter, pumpkin, eater in its specificity, I think. That is true. I guess. All right, so,

yeah, see, usually if you had to summarize what you've learned in what sentence, what would it be? It's probably a murder suicide, I'm thinking. That's it. Yeah. I'm gonna do a suicide. Yeah. Hashtag Lizzie didn't do it.

All right. And are you ready for the quiz? Ask me anything you like. Oh, there's the shit tits right there at the end. All right. All right. Cecil, clearly Lizzie born did not get a fair shake in the media. Why not? Hey, the news story was a hatchet job.

Hey, the editor had an axe to grind. Yeah. That's possible. See, I can only think of two puns. I miss Heath. I really miss. Well, it's definitely not D. No, it's Heath. Let's go with the C you could only think of two puns. I tried really hard to get a third one there. All right.

Correct. Go on, Eli. Yeah, whatever. All right. This story is obviously begging for a podcast slash Netflix documentary. What should we call it? A, my least favorite mother. B, the minks.

C, killer spin side. Or D, serial season four. That's just rude. Serial season four. Answer D, correct. Okay's just rude. Serial season four. That's a deal. Correct. Okay. All right. So in addition to the nursery rhyme, this story has also been commemorated in a number of popular songs, which is the most beloved. And by the way, you guys, you will legitimately miss Heath by the end of this, which is the most beloved? Hey, don't ask me no questions by Leonard Skitter.

I already miss him. Be, give him what they accent for by rustic crimes. See anything you ask for by Thomas A. Hawk, D, if you had to ask by the good one, yeah, red hatchity peppers. There's a lot of that's just like hatchity. That's the

I think it's secret answer. E anything by Axel Rose. Oh, I'm sure the secret answer was a slash they're both in the same band. They're in the same band. Slash your Axel Rose. Oh, I'm sure that was close to the

correct answer was secret answer, F. Tom actually does miss Heath. But I think it's clear after hearing what happened when we tried to do puns that the real winner here is Heath, so we're going to let him pick the essay as next time we talk to. Not it. Not it. I guess it's me that, okay.

Well, for Cecil E. Leitt, Tom, and usually Heath, I'm no thank you for hanging out with us today. We'll be back next week and by that I'll be an expert on something else between now and then you can hear more from Tom and seasonal on cognitive dissonance and more from Eli and myself on the skating aides, God off of movies and the Skeptocrat. And if you'd like to help keep this show going, you can make a per episode donation with patreon.com, so that's citation pod or leave us a five star review everywhere you can. And if you want to get in touch with us, check out past episodes, connect with us on social media or check the show notes. Be sure to check out citationpod.com.