Citation Needed - Starvation Heights

Episode Date: August 4, 2021

Linda Laura Hazzard (née Burfield; December 18, 1867 – June 24, 1938), nicknamed the "Starvation Doctor"[1] was an American quack, fraud, swindler and serial killer noted for her promotion of fasting as a treatment. She was imprisoned by the state of Washington for a number of deaths at a sanitarium she operated there in the early 20th century. Her treatments were responsible for at least 15 deaths. Born 1867 in Carver County, Minnesota, she died during a fast in 1938. Our theme song was written and performed by Anna Bosnick. If you’d like to support the show on a per episode basis, you can find our Patreon page here.  Be sure to check our website for more details.

Invincible was good. He's not here so that like talking about a pop culture reference before we opened the door thing wouldn't really work, but Invincible totally worth a watch. If you get past all the violence and shit, also Maravise town, very good, definitely worth a ton. And then, Tom, that is enough! Cecil, it's just a story, right?

You promise it's just a story? Guys, what the hell is going on? Tom is selling us the scariest story. Yeah. His essay this week is about not eating. Cecil quiet or she'll appear behind you and make you not eat. So no, she won't. You're just saying that to scare me, Eli. She will. Now she won't. Tom is supposed to be one hell of a story. How far are you into it? I what I'm asked so far. We start with once upon a time.

And then yeah, I guess that tracks, but it's gonna be a time without food Noah. Yeah, whose food will he finish Noah? Hello, and welcome! The citation needed. The podcast where we choose a subject, read a single article about it on Wikipedia, and pretend we're experts, because this is the internet. That's how it works now. I'm Eli Bosnick and I'll be taking very careful care of you tonight. But I'll need some fellow inmates. First up, two men for whom a starvation diet means missing second brick

list, Cecil and- Hey, I can't help. My bulk cycle is in a geologic time frame. What the fuck? Hey, it's not a cycle. It's a lifestyle. Exactly. And also joining us tonight alternative medicines alternative no illusions. At this point, I have a hard time not just being pissed off at people named her. Before we begin tonight, we'd like to take a moment to thank our patrons. Patrons without you, like the subject of today's essay, we starved to death in the not on purpose

way, which I think we can all agree is worse. We're not on purpose way. If you'd like to learn how to join the ranks of people preventing us from not eating, be sure to stick around to the end of the show. And with that, and other way, tell us, Cecil, what person, place, thing, concept, phenomenon, or event, we'll be talking about today. Today we're gonna be talking about starvation heights. All right, and Tom, you were trying to prove to a waiter that they were committing a crime

by not letting you and Heath into a freezer with a fork and a lit porch. I'm gonna tell you what you learned. I am, I'm hungry to tell you this story. Oh, okay. There you go. But, Tom, what was starvation heights? All right, so this story is one of those stories

that I thought and thought about before I decided to tell it. This is a fucked up story to be sure, and it's tragic, but not tragic in the sort of bumbling, oops, I unplugged the lake sense that stories here often contain. It's our brain buttering up. That's the up to that. Is that radio mute out there?

Me too. I bet this would be a great hand lotion. Rub it on my butt hole. Much of the tragedy in this episode is intentional. And I don't mean to glamorize the cruelty by telling the story, but the story also contains really timely warnings about alternative medicine, and even touches on the dangers of abuse within a legal guardianship. Both topics, which are very much part of the national conversation right now, as much as they were a hundred years ago.

This is the story of starvation heights, the fasting-based sanitarium and murder factory operated by Linda Hazard in the early 1900s. Okay. I just want to say at the outset, anyone who thinks not feeding you makes you more sane has never met my wife. I also want to emphasize that the show that did the wacky comedy over the history of the typing rebellion, now has a, we're not sure about this one intro. So I So I like the as nervous as the other day. So Linda Hazard was born in 1867 in Carver County, Minnesota. She was one of eight children. As a child, Linda complained of a number of ailments of the stomach and it being the late 1800s.

Both diagnoses and treatments were very generous, clumsy. Linda was taken to a local doctor and she was prescribed mercury. Of course, with the benefit of hindsight, it's fairly easy to see how this went poorly. Lindsay. Linda was taken to a local doctor and she was prescribed mercury. Of course, with the benefit of hindsight, it's fairly easy to see how this went poorly. Mercury is, of course, toxic as all hell, but in the late 1800s, it was a fairly common therapy for a distressingly large number of complaints. There was a general feeling at the time of better out than in, which, if you bought into, would make mercury make a hell of a lot of sense, actually. Mercury ingestion has a host of a lot of sense, actually. Mercury ingestion has a host of horrifying effects, depending on the dosage and formulation,

but chief among these effects is that it made you violently discharge anything you might have anywhere, even remotely in the neighborhood of your stomach. Yeah. For centuries, actually, promoting explosive diarrhea in patients was considered not a distressing symptom, but a sign that things were looking up. After all, the more you emptied yourself, the more of the supposed toxins and poisons you were ejecting from your system. So what you're saying, Tom, is I was the healthiest person anyone knew in 18th century.

Whenever I shoot silly string out of my asshole, I'm never thinking, man, I'm glad that happened. Wow. Well, clearly you don't hate making small talk as much as I do. She's so bad. So for years, Linda was given Calamel. It's a very common mercury-based medicinal remedy. And for years, she was catastrophically violently ill. And I bring this up because I think it actually provides

some valuable context for this story, both for Linda and for her patients. If your medical worldview is based on the idea that there are toxins accumulating in your body and that the elimination of those toxins would bring the body back to right, then it actually makes all the sense in the world to induce elimination. And from there, extended fasting is really only a hot skip and a leap to conclusions away. It's very likely, too, that Linda herself associated the feeling of emptiness,

where she had nothing left to purge with her feelings of health. While that is speculative, what is known for sure is that Linda began to fall for a very trendy alternative medical practice, which is popular among progressive circles promoting the health effects of fasting. This obsession with fasting tight neatly in with the toxic elimination idea and would come to define Linda's life and end many others. Okay, guys. Origin Story Title idea, the pukes of hazard. What do you think? Some, I feel like there's a starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry starry at two children, though she discovered that her ambition and desire to spread the gospel of fasting far outweighed her desire for family life.

In 1898, Linda left her husband or two kids and headed off to Minneapolis to open a practice promoting her fasting cure. This was extraordinary for a couple of reasons. First, it was practically unheard of for women in the late 1800s to leave their husbands and children to move away and start a career. Second, Linda wasn't a licensed... Anything. Yeah, no licenses. But it was 1898, so that wasn't the barrier to entry

into the medical field that you might imagine it would be. Supposedly, Linda did have some training as an osteopathic nurse, but she hung out her shingle claiming to be a doctor. And since doctors were not at this time, strictly regulated, this didn't even raise an eyebrow. The late 1800s was pretty much the heyday for sanitariums and patent medicines, and anyone who wanted to could pretty much offer medical services

without much in the way of practical or legal barriers. Yeah, now you have to go to the trouble of making a meme in Photoshop. It's much harder to say. No, I'm sorry. I challenged anybody to look at Gwyneth Paltrow's net worth and tell me some other age was to hate a patent medicine. All right. Linda began her fasting treatments right off and right off the consequences were predictably awful. Now, like Linda, I am not a medical doctor, but I can tell you that if you don't eat food

for a long enough period of time, you fucking die from starvation. Yep. You do. That's true. You know, two Linda's divorce finalized as did the last days of her first patient to succumb to the inevitable effects of not eating food for a very long time. Now, that'll get you every day. The corner was able to determine that the patient died of starvation likely from the gaunt starved look that starved people tend to have any

or prosecutors to have Linda arrested. However, and this is bonkers since Linda wasn't actually licensed to practice medicine, she couldn't be arrested for doing a bad job practicing medicine. Fucking what? Airgo she had not broken the law. She's out of the game. She's in her hand. Also, we'll see this time and again in her story, convicting someone of making you not eat food

when food is available to you was really difficult for prosecutors to get behind at this time. Everyone knew that Linda was responsible. They just didn't couldn't figure out how she was legally culpable. Oh, and then also Linda stole the dead ladies jewelry. She's such a nice. There it went. What they needed was some sort of FDA that could officially not do anything

to stop. They walk in. She's got a fishing pole with a string and a banana on it. She's pulling a river. They come in. She quickly hides it behind her back like nothing's happening. Around this time, Linda met and married the love of her life. A West Point graduate named Samuel Christman Hazard. There were only a few minor problems. Okay. Which one of them that his name was a strange Lovian level after him. For this reason. No, first Samuel had ruined his military career by stealing money from the army, which got him hicked right the fuck out of the army. He was also notorious latch and habitual drunkard.

Oh, he was also married to two other women. Oh, probably. Definitely though at least one other one. This did not dissuade Sam or Linda from tying the knot, however, and Samuel even introduced Linda to his most recent kind of former wife as his wife. This introduction of Linda as Samuel's new and current third wife did not sit well with Samuel's second also current recent wife,

who was also the daughter of a prominent local lawmaker. They had Samuel arrested for bigamy and he was thrown in jail for two years. None of this did anything to dampen the flames between Linda and Samuel and they stayed together throughout his prison term after which the pair left Minnesota and moved to Washington. All right. Well, I'd say there's nothing to love story between two con men, but Ed and Lorraine Warren just got their third fucking conjuring movie. So, will I put together a pitch deck?

Let's pause for a little ditty I like to call apropos of nothing. Doctor, thank you so much for coming. Of course, I'm very sorry to hear about your mother. Yes, the doctor tried everything she could. Sorry, the doctor? Oh yes, Dr. Linda, have you met her? No, I don't think I have. Holy fucking shit, do not fucking go in there. Woo-hoo-hoo!

Let me tell you that fucking mercury ran through me like... Like the finished line of the 2013 Boston Mirrorathon! Oh, too soon. Um, you must be Dr. Linda. Yeah, you could fucking call me that. Okay, you are a doctor, though, right? Oh, you could call me doctor Linda That's what all the fucking questions, huh? Dr. Linda about mother's condition. Oh, yeah, she had a real fucking bad case and eaten too much fucking fooditis

I'm sorry eating too much fucking fooditis. Yeah, it's a new fucking disease. You probably ain't heard of it. I did my best, but she must have fucking snuck some fucking crackers or something, and then she fucking died, you know. Mother did love her crackers. Yeah, well anyway, I better, I better fucking start taking off her jewelry, you know. Gotta get back to the lab and measure them for... fucking crack at a positive or whatever.

Oh, okay, excuse me. I'm sorry, but enough is enough. Oh, what do you mean, Doctor? Yeah, what do you fucking mean? I mean, we're splitting that jewelry 50-50 or I came here for nothing. Fine, fine. Can I have some too? No. Nah.

And we're back. When we left off, Linda and Samuel were sitting in a tree. Tell us Tom. What happened next? Well, Linda and Samuel settled in a town nearby Seattle called Ola-la. Linda's intention was to start her own sanitarium on a 48-gar parcel of land she had purchased. But first, she was gonna need to start her health on food business, a new. Like if for her, the idea of fasting your way to better health

was not a hard sell. Local free thinkers and theosophists embraced Linda's notions and she quickly gained both notoriety and patience. Here Linda's fasting cure claimed its first Washington victim, a woman named Daisy Maud Hugglin. Daisy entered Linda's care and began her treatment which included a near total fast that lasted 50 days.

Daisy died of starvation at the age of 38. Interestingly, she left behind a three-year-old son named Ivar had one who would go on to significant success with his restaurant chain Ivar's, a chain which has in a full circle moment, Fed millions. Yeah. You know, in the in an out burgers, there's John 316 on the wrapper. Ivar's has fucked you Linda Hazard on there. 16 on the wrapper, Iverse has fuck you Linda hazard on there. I noticed that still in business, more and more patients continue to come to Linda for treatment and more and more of them surprisingly fail to get better by denying their bodies of the essential nutrients it requires to perform necessary biological and chemical

functions. The pattern was pretty much the same. Paying for the privilege, Linda Wood, intake a patient, diagnosed them with some nonsense, which only her administrations could cure, and then she would starve them. Sheesh, even Catholic residential schools would give you the occasional cracker. Oh, no, no. And it's not like people in the area weren't aware that this was happening. After her treatment

killed a local civil engineer, the Seattle Daily Times ran a headline which read quote, woman MD and MD is in quotes, kills another patient, another. Look, she might be a quack, literally torturing people to death, but she's a lady and that's what I won't stand for. Yeah.

Yeah. In the early 1900s, was there like a group of scientists deep in a lab spizzy inventing linking cause and effect? Yeah, I got around it. Oh, Berlin, my class. Oh, the cause. Still, patients kept signing up for Linda's treatments and many of them died. Though now Linda was also figuring out that her starving patients were prime targets

for financial abuse as well. Once trust and control was deeply established, Linda often also took control of her patients finances, asking them for more and more money, and indeed, even getting some of them to sign over control of their bank accounts to her. Wow. You imagine being bankrupted by your medical care? She's just a person who's so barbaric. Oh, no.

Oh, no. Oh, no. You know, the, the, in the picture, the after picture and the advertisements for Linda's business, they just had a snake laced through the eye holes of the skull. That's what it was. That's what it was. The only death, which deviated from the starvation pattern was that of 29-year-old aristocrat Eugene Stanley Wakeland. Eugene was the son of a British lord. He met a quicker end than Linda's other victims. Eugene's body was found on the hazard property with a bullet wound to the head. The original thought was that Eugene had committed suicide, but later investigators believed that he was killed by the hazards

when they discovered that despite being aristocracy, he was also broke. What the hell, guys? your thing already kills people. You couldn't wait. Right. You're not gonna die of the murdering him right now. Yeah, but not for free. I mean, yes, that were the expense of not feeding him anything for a while. Okay.

Health authorities were powerless to stop this murderous charlatan while Linda was unlicensed and therefore safe from prosecution when in Minnesota. This is fucking bonkers. Washington was different. In Washington, Linda was actually licensed. There was a good, which allowed her to be licensed absence, any meaningful credentials as an alternative medicine doctor specializing in fasting. Wow, Not good. Since she was a licensed fasting specialist, and since her patients were willing participants in their own starvation, authorities were helpless to intervene. When former legislator, Lewis Raider, began wasting away on the direction of Linda, health inspectors at the hotel she was using, tried to convince him to leave before it was too

late. Lewis, a firm believer in Linda's starvation treatment, weakly refused to leave before it was too late. Lewis affirmed believer in Linda's starvation treatment, weekly refused to leave. And then Linda spirited Lewis away in the middle of the night to a new location. So authorities couldn't take him. Wow. Lewis died a few days later weighing less than a hundred pounds. I'm sorry, Mr. Sentient pork chop. I just need a few more days of treatment. Yeah, she spirited them away. And like, it's like the underground railroad, except that like the destination is the underground.

Yeah. And being railroaded. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And in February of 1911, two very wealthy sisters Dorothea and Claire Williamson met with Linda in her office in Seattle. This meeting was start the chain of events

which were an end in tragedy and ultimately end also in Linda's arrest. The two Williams and sisters were well-known hypochondriacs and they were also big believers in alternative medicine. No, the two don't seem to go hand in hand at all. They had traveled extensively and had land holdings across the US, Canada and the UK, but they were also shielded by their extreme wealth for many of the harsher realities of the world. When they heard about Linda and her beautiful sanitarium she intended to build, the sisters eagerly sought her out dreaming of a sundapled Pacific Northwest retreat and all the care and attention they need.

Okay, so I get that somebody has to start them, but I'm pretty leery of anybody who dreams of having their own sanitarium. Okay. That's fucked up. Linda was all too happy to take on the care of the Williams and sisters, though she didn't yet have her sanitarium up and running. Instead, she began treating them in a hotel in Seattle, supervised by one of Linda's nurses.

Here, the sisters endured the full brunt of Linda's treatments. See, Linda's protocol wasn't confined only to intense fasting. Linda also prescribed and herself performed daily massages. Now, I like a massage probably as much or more than the next guy, but these massages were really something else. Linda would humble her patients, not just on the back, but on the stomach and on the forehead. That doesn't sound like a massage. Patients were left deeply bruised and battered, which in their week and state for meeting

nothing but two cups of thin tomato broth they after day left her patients more and more vulnerable. Linda also forced her patients to have daily animals, which sometimes lasted for hours. That does sound good. It could involve as much as 12 parts of fluid. Wow. Jesus. Yeah, these animals were also terrifically painful and taxing on the body.

Yeah, these sisters are just flying around the room like someone let go of a sculpting door and a little standing in the center going, yes, hell, I'm a good doctor. Whether it was the goal or not, certainly one of the effects of these treatments was to render the patient helpless and confused. As the patient's mental and physical health deteriorated, they were isolated and Linda made sure she was the only person in position to offer them care and sucker. Helpless, the Williamson's were both dependent on and also deeply bonded to Linda. And so when she began making inquiries into their real estate holdings, the sisters were

in no position to protect themselves. Quickly Linda secured signed documents from the starving, deteriorating sisters, eating over land and assets to Linda upon their death. Yeah, well, so let's be clear that their mental health was deteriorating from a, I guess, your beaten a shit out of me for medical reasons, huh, level, right? That was the starting point at some point. And it's not clear exactly how it was likely through a sympathetic nurse. One of the Williamson sisters sent a brief and cryptic telegraph to Margaret Conway, the

sister's childhood nanny. Though she was all the way in Sydney, Australia, when she received the telegraph, Margaret immediately set sail to Washington, hoping to save the sisters from whatever had been following them. I'll be there as soon as I can, girls. See you in three and a half months. Yeah. Shit. It actually took, it took almost exactly a month to the day. And a last for Claire Williamson help had come too late, weighing just 50 pounds when Jesus finally succumbed to the beating, the starvation, and the animals. And Dorothea was not much better off. In fact,

when Margaret was taken to see the body of Claire, Claire was so wasted that it wasn't until Margaret saw the still living Dorothea that she understood who they were and what exactly she was seeing. Dorothea's mental health had deteriorated badly at this point as well, and she was far too unwell to speak up for herself, make decisions, or understand the gravity of her situation. At this point, Margaret tried to take Dorothy from Linda, but Linda refused. While in her care and helpless to do otherwise, the Williamson sisters signed over their rights to Linda as guardian. Then as now, once a guardianship is established, a person essentially loses all of their

normally inviolable civil rights and the guardian has complete autonomy over all aspects of their lives. Hashtag free-britied. Exactly. Margaret stayed with Dorothea and tried to slip additional food stuff into the thin tomato broth that Dorothea received every day. While she was at the hotel to other skeletal patients begged Margaret

to save them claiming they were prisoners. And she was like, I'm really just here for her. I came all the way from my sleep. I'm so, so. Isn't this on your former nanny though? I feel like you're not. It's not my problem.

Margaret unable to secure Dorothy as freedom on her own, snuck off the property and traveled as quickly as possible to Portland, Oregon. Dorothy as Uncle lived. Margaret, with Uncle now in tow, again demanded the release of Dorothy. And again, the hazards refused. Now claiming that Dorothy was not free to go until she had settled her $2,000 bill. $2,000 back in the day money. Jesus.

Mac and the fucking 1911. Wow. The uncle paid the ransom and Dorothy was freed, weighing only 60 pounds when she was rescued. Jeez. Well, I'm just saying though, I've seen people pay a lot more for a weightless effective weight loss. I even after Dorothy has escaped, local authorities did not initially agree to arrest and prosecute Linda, citing a lack of funds for a trial and prosecution of the scale. Dorothy, uh, having begun

to regain her wits as well as her health offered a foot the bill for the trial. And in August of 1911, Linda was arrested. The original version of Lady Justice just a statue of her shrugging with her pockets turned out. It's not my problem. I need $2,000. Yeah. 1911. Yeah.

Actually. All right. Now stop me if this sounds at all familiar. When she was arrested, Linda claimed that she was being arrested not because she was a murderer and thief, but because the traditional medical establishment was afraid that she had uncovered a treatment which rendered their methods, medicines and expertise all worthless. This was, as she told it, not a story of murder, but a story of powerful medical institutions crushing under foot the healing power of alternative medicine.

Yep. Yep. All we need is a boat and Andrew Wakefield and the cycle is complete. Despite many ardent supporters, the jury didn't buy that shit. Linda was convicted of manslaughter. Incredibly, while awaiting her sentencing, Linda continued her starvation treatment therapy and two more patients died in her car. Linda was sentenced to and served

two years for manslaughter, despite at least 12 people having been starved to death while under her treatment. And after serving the same term that her husband had received for bigum, right, the two high-tailed it to New Zealand. I was wondering where those hobbits looked so emaciated when we left. That's okay. He was arrested for big amish. He was arrested for too little of me. There you go. That's such a good joke. Oh, we need a statue. At once in New Zealand, Linda again set up shop as a physician. Here she wrote a book on the fasting cure, which despite her notoriety and the publicity of her trial was wildly successful.

What? In fact, guys, it is so successful that you can still buy this book. What? You can buy this book right now on Amazon and also unironically in many natural healing book stores. This book is still available for sale. After making a ton of money selling her book, Linda moved in 1920 back to Olaula, Washington and now fully financed, opened her long awaited sanitarium at wilderness heights. There, Hazard continued to starve people to death at her sanitarium and locals darkly referred to wilderness heights as starvation heights after several patients were found

amaciated and wandering out of the facility begging for help. Oh, yeah, that lady up on the Hill tortures people to death. But don't worry, we got together as a town and we gave her business a mean nickname. That's not even a good one, right? Come on, guys, get creative. Sturvation, I keep f***ing brand. Incredibly, Linda Sanitarium operated until 1935. I'm going to burn down.

Not long after, Linda herself began to feel unwell. Taking her own medicine, Linda followed her advice and began a fast herself. And that fast ultimately claimed her life. Now I know this story is just gruesome as all hell, but I didn't tell it because it's titillating. I tell it because here we sit nearly a hundred years later and we are still talking about these exact QLPs. We are still supporting and enabling systems which allow the same quackery and fraud to permeate society and pray on those who are ill. And we are still stripping wealthy young women of their civil rights under the guise of

guardianship in order to financially abuse them. I'm telling a story not because it's old, but because it's not. And the civil rights we learned in one sentence, Tom, what would it be? Again, I'm hungry. I think that's where we go. Back, back at her. Are you ready for the quiz? Let's do it.

All right, speaking of hungry, given the popularity of Linda Hester's starvation diets in the Ola la area, a number of restaurants eventually opened up to cater to her patients, which was the most popular. A, what's a bird? B, Eric. Eric. Eric. Eric. Eric.

Eric. This is very nice. C, hardly. Or D, starf bucks. Starf bucks. That's so good. That's so good. That's so good.

I like that one. Anyone that knows me knows the answer is clearly starf. I think that's the best. I think that one's so good. That's a good one. That's good. I like that one. Anyone that knows me knows the answer is clearly starbucks. That was that one was loosened to us by the way. And yes, D.

Very good. Very good. That's good. That's very, very good. All right, Tom, what was the best dessert starvation heights served in the sanitarium cafeteria? Hey, death by not chocolate. That's all you're working a steak at home.

There you go. There you go. There you go. There you go. Wait, A, yeah, I did it. Oh, fucking nailed it. Nailed it. All right, Tom, one more for you.

Yeah, Linda Hazard's horrible starvation clinic movie is called a diet hard B skin and bone collector. See American slender D slim fan or the fast and the spurious. All right. the fast and the spurious. Oh, no. That's gross. Even though it's not Christmas, I'm going with diet heart. I don't know. Who won? I'm going to let Eli figure it out.

Those were all very excellent, but Heath wasn't here to do his puns. So he wins in absentia. And he wants to know the right amount writing. He's talking in his heart. All right. Well, for Tom Cecil and Noah, I'm Eli Bosnick. Thank you for hanging out with us today. We'll be back next week. By then Noah will be an expert on something else. Between now and then, you can listen to our podcast and all the podcast places. And if you'd like to help keep the show going, you can make a per episode donation at patreon.com slash citation pod and when you do, we'll like you more.

Or maybe it's a five star review everywhere you can. And if you'd like to get in touch with us, check out past episodes, connect with us on social media or check the show notes, be sure to check out citation pod.com. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUT [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING you