Citation Needed - The Mountain Meadows Massacre

Episode Date: June 26, 2019

The Mountain Meadows massacre was a series of attacks on the Baker–Fancher emigrant wagon train at Mountain Meadows in southern Utah. The attacks began on September 7 and culminated on September 11, 1857, resulting in the mass slaughter of most in the emigrant party by members of the Utah Territorial Militia from the Iron County district, together with some Southern Paiute Native Americans.   Our theme song was written and performed by Anna Bosnick. If you’d like to support the show on a per episode basis, you can find our Patreon page here.  Be sure to check our website for more details.

I think they were doing it. No, no, she just changed into Rose in the moment like you'd stay for her No, no because the Pearl says says they used to hang out all the time remember Halt Right right it's Monday. Damn it. I nailed the furniture down exactly for this reason Yeah, well, it's called a crowbar pilgrim ever heard of it pilgrim really. Who is it brother Heath? Well, it's called a crowbar, pilgrim. Have you heard of it? Pilgrim, really? Who is it, brother Heath? Well, it appears to be a Spanish conquistador and an old Indian medicine man, sir.

I get that a lot, actually. Yeah, me too. Show them away. You heard him. Out, Tom, stop it! What are you doing? Okay, so Eli found these golden plates, right? No, no, no, no, tell him about the angel first.

No, no, wait, no, wait, no, wait, Tell him about the time God turned everyone red as punishment Guys, guys, Eli does not have golden plates. Eli didn't talk to an angel. He's just stealing this stuff from this week's episode. Son of a... Yeah, I gotta admit, I'm kind of surprised to see how smith ends up um

hypothetically how does joseph smith end up well you know how we dial out you like all fish noodles Hello and welcome to Citation Needin! The podcast where we choose a subject, read a single article about it on Wikipedia and pretend we're experts because this is the internet. That's how it works now.

I'm Eli Bosnick and I'll be your Nephi but I'll need some murmuring brothers. First up, two guys who did not get those jokes because they aren't stupid sadists, Tom and Cecil. Okay, I like to think of myself as an above average sadist. Thank you. Every time someone hands me a holy book, my answer is always the same. Reject the premise. I just reject the premise.

And also joining us tonight. Two men who know just how great the price of that pearl is. Heath and Noah. Yeah, the pearl of great price is definitely the sand-chafing your clam of books. Oh, my goodness. Well, and as to the price, the LDS was estimated to be worth about $67 billion. That's way more than the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. So yeah, it's pretty fucking high price.

Oh, shit. Before we begin tonight, we want to take a moment to thank our patrons. Without you, Cecil and Tom would have to split the West with their feuding. Noah would have written a new testament for God, and Heath would still be trying to fuck people two decades younger than him. No, we'd like to learn how to join their ranks. Be sure to stick around to the end of the show. And with that out of the way, tell us, Cecil, what person, place, thing, concept, phenomenon, or event. Well, we'll be talking about today. Today, we We're gonna be talking about the Audrey Meadows Massacre

And no honeymoon rat. I said honey moose rap Oh my god Those old folks in the audience said deep coats someone's in a home right now There's one guy's like to the moon now listen. He's like I love that job. Hey, no, no zoom nailed it Let me let me look this for my Jamaican nurse so she can hear this. What was my life? BEEP! So tell us Noah, what was the mountain meadows massacre?

Well, if I just answer that question, it wouldn't exactly be a Noah essay, would it? So, let's start with a little primer on Mormon history. Jesus fucking Christ, if the first Mormon was in a Truskin or there's a geological Bowen out I'm bowing out. Okay. Well, I'm gonna warn you there are rocks But before we get to the rocks we have to overcome people's prejudices So like when I say Mormon the first adjective that pops into your head probably isn't warlike but I would submit to you that if you take the history of Mormonism as a whole that's a very apt descriptor all right so if you're

looking for people who spent more time plotting to violently overthrow the existing power structure you're pretty much limited to Che Guevara or pinky in the brain yeah Yeah, I throw ISIS in there, but I don't think it counts if it's just modifying the existing. Exactly, though. Right. Not the rules. I'd say Joe Smith, like you could describe him as one is a genius, the other's insane. That's a good, all right. So I'm gonna power through a lot of the stuff leading up to the massacre But I want to tell you that the history of Mormonism is a goddamn fractal of insanity Okay, I don't have time to go into a whole lot of detail

But I assure you that if you zoom in on any one point you're just gonna find insanity built upon insanity built upon more insanity So as crazy as all this shit is gonna sound I promise the full history is way fucking crazier shit is gonna sound I promise the full history is way fucking crazier cool so you're saying the massacre they carried out that you're about to describe that's one of the flattering stories about the Mormons no no just one of the least crazy is all cool all right so the story of Mormonism starts with a story of Joseph Smith a criminal charlatan who claimed to have superpowers in a magical rock Seriously in his early years

He made his living by going to people's farms telling them that he had magical visions that an ancient treasure was buried by Ancient white people from America on their property and then offering to dig it up for them in exchange for rumored board during the excavation and And people are stupid, so this works sometimes. Well, I mean, admittedly, that's way more work than most kids do around the house. So I guess that's Roman board. So I'm just like clarify that his scam, like if everything went perfect in his scam, he got to couch surf at your place for a little bit. He got to couch surf at your place for a little bit. That was his ocean's 11 moments. He needs a phase three.

He's not thinking it through. Well, here's the thing that will occasionally fuck your daughter too. But the key here is that Joseph Smith is incredibly fucking lazy. Okay, like, if this has fuck all to do with the story, but I have to tell you this anyway, he didn't actually do any of the digging right he had a kind of like him right now

Yeah, he had a team of laborers that did the digging and in his job during the digging was to consult with his magic rock and make sure They were still digging in the right place because and this is real Joseph would tell them and that if they angered God God would move the treasure to a different subterranean spot. Jesus. A side note, in the stream of consciousness of boring, that is the Book of Mormon, he would repeat this lie literally just so he could go back to all the people he never found treasure for, all of them,

and be like, see Moses agrees with me. He knows this. Quick question, were you guys loving the Jewish people while we were digging? Because God moves a shit around if you don't love Jewish people in upstate New York. I don't know what to tell you. Alright, so this scam worked out as well as it could for a while, I guess, but eventually word got around and it got harder and harder for Joseph to sell this scam after failing to find treasure at every other place. But luckily, at just about the same time, God and Jesus were looking for a good earthly

representative. And they figured, you know, who would be more trustworthy than a person that already has a criminal record for con artistry. So they sent down an angel named Maroni to tell Joseph that he'd been chosen to restore Christ's church to its intended glory Okay, like Moroni that's like moron with an eye at the end is precisely Like the name their angel and Italian moron Did he come down with his chair print idiot

Come down with his chair, friend, idiotot, Tim. Is that what happened? It's just ridiculous that God would choose some random nobody with no power, no connections, no access to a broader social audience, tell only that one guy, his most super importantist message to, you wouldn't think he'd do that again. Yeah, we should be, every single time. We've all felt like crazy. We've been all friends. It feels like Chris is going to get awkward.

Yeah. All right. So of course, nobody would believe a story like this without some physical evidence. So Marona told Joseph Smith about some golden plates that he could go dig up to prove that he was sent by God, provided that he promised not to let anyone ever see or touch those golden plates. Now if you think nobody would be convinced by physical evidence, they weren't allowed to see or touch, I submit to you Salt Lake City. Also the Vatican, also Mecca. I have more examples, but I can leave it there.

Mueller report. Mueller report. For fuck's sake, if I didn't believe in things I couldn't see or touch, I would have spent all of high school not believing in booze Yeah, right. Why didn't God just make it a clitoris? Now you're just talking crazy Now you're bringing out the fantasy. All right, so anyway, so Joey uses these Unverifiable golden plates that nobody got to see to write the book of more men

a tone more densely packed with an acrid isms the the town of fucking bedrock and using nothing but that his gumption and the amazingly low educational standards of america surca eighteen thirty he started his very own religion that's a good formula uh... kind of like the republican party surca right now yeah that was your function yes uh... kind of like the republican party circle right now well

uh... so joseph smith butting religion was saddled by a couple of problems early on uh... the first a simple bigotry right any group of people describing to an unfamiliar religion in nineteen century america was going to face persecution even if they slapped jesus christ on the name of their church here and there the second was that joseph smith was a con artist with that criminal record of his and

a penchant for dishonest business dealings that didn't stop when he started working for Jesus. The third is that as soon as Joseph Smith realized people were actually going to listen to what he said God said He got a bunch more revelations from God about how he should be fucking everybody's daughter He got a bunch more revelations from God about how he should be fucking everybody's daughter So yeah needless to say the blossoming new faith had a hard time getting along with the neighbors Hey, uh real quick. What did the tablet say? Oh, it says You think I'm down and low on your knees show the daughters of Ah you be in supplication and he says more, but you the drift. It says it says me personally the can I see those? No. All right sounds plausible have at it. Go Susan Lans.

Susan's perfect for last. All right so they get run out of several towns early on uh... now you listen to the mormon version of this history they tell you all about problem one and they're curiously silent on points to and three there but to be clear the religious persecution real is it might have been was also informed by the fact that the morons were literally trying to overthrow the american government and establish a theocracy with joseph sm Smith as the nation's God King. Yeah, and cream pie everyone's daughter. That's the fear.

Okay, but I mean all women are someone's daughter. We've got a cream pie. So far. Yes, fair. It's a compliment. It's so pretty. And look, I know that my descriptions probably sound hyperbolic to most people but but by the time that the mormons were settled in naavu illinois which was the

largest city of the state at the time that an army a special forces a secret for service and they were printing their own money more money uh... more money more money joseph smith is just waving his arms around who's coming with me ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha wars against state militias and then when a printer in a nearby Illinois town tried to alert people of the kind of crazy shit the Mormons were doing Joseph Smith sent in his army to burn that guy's shop to the fucking ground. Cool. What's that old saying?

Don't pick fights with people who buy arson gasoline by the barrel? Is that even if you buy ink by the barrel don't do with the arts and guys. No, so Joseph Smith was no stranger to being arrested, but in 1844 after burning down said printing press, looting and burning a bunch of settlements and declaring open war on the state, he was arrested for the last time. He was shot and killed in a Missouri jail on June 27th of 1844 and there are a lot of different stories about who killed him and why uh... so the official mormon position is that it was killed by a lynch mob motivated through peer religious bigotry on the other side of the spectrum

some people postulate that he was killed by a contingent of the mormon army that was working under the service is just a reaction of future mormon leader brigham young but one way the other he was shot to death right but most importantly literally everyone agrees He tried to stop the bullet that killed him with magic Magic shield gesture that failed he got shot and then he died that is more men can and history

We're one of the few times those two things overlap. Yeah i bounce the back at you you have to fall down you fall down and i'm dead i'm dead in the life uh... all right so normally this is where these kind of stories that right like the charismatic leader of the cult dies to cult disperses but more monism was lucky enough to inherit a second charismatic leader at just that moment

or at least the faction of the ensuing schism that sided with brigham young did the other three or four offshoots withered on the vine pretty quickly so brigham young takes the demoralized remaining warm and swaston to unsettled lands looking for the paradise that dead Joseph Smith promised them and what they found instead was salt lake city you talk now you're right so quick reminder on the joggy geography of the time this this is the 1840s. At this point, the actual states ended the Mississippi River. There's a big blob to the west that shows up on maps as just unorganized territories. Utah was to the west of that. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha there in 1847, technically that was still part of Mexico until the war wrapped up a year later.

Oh shit. I love the like of all the fucking places you choose to settle. They pick next to a massive, undrinkable water supply. Yes. You sell that to everybody. It's like, okay, well we're here and we are in great luck if you have a sore throat but also hope you never get the first uh... what the fact

it'll be easy the good news is it'll be easy to do brining so yeah obviously the u-s government didn't look super highly on this group of polygamist larceness murderous war like seditious idolaters that had declared open war on them multiple times but they did have kind of history it's fine yeah but they did have one advantage when it came to dealing with the fets they were white see at that time you taught wasn't so much unsettled as it was fully populated but with brownish people and the federal government yet right right obviously they didn't want that so despite their reservations literally took over that land despite

the uh... that was kind of a gamble uh... uh... uh... so it's a uh...

but then okay so where i was going to was compromise of eighteen fifty uh... president miller film or officially creates the utah territory and selects brigham young as the territories first governor so uh... mister young we're having trouble with these mexican people anything in your holy book about mexican people we just had a whole war with are those skulls that

that where he had where do you have those my name is millard uh... alright so now the morons are legit and they're there's a number government that has been generously described as a

the odomocracy uh... so we have no they have elections technically but it doesn't matter because they all vote is a block anyway and after the elections all the church leaders will just get these quasi political appointments that

happened to correspond to their ecclesiastical roles that's convenient right so like if you're a judge according the church you're appointed as a probate judge that kind of shit and since the territorial legislature was virtually entirely comprised of more men's all of those appointments are hastily ratified oh my god what's in a while is title is title cares what is fucking title is just there not to be brown we can't call them director in charge of being white

now we can't do that so so president that that doodly do was in twenty sixteen all right so this kind of shit plus the open practice of polygamy made a lot of people in the federal government nervous. So in 1857, then President James Buchanan sent a contingent of the US Army to Utah and what was called the Utah expedition. The stated goal was all about exploration and surveying and stuff, but the real goal was

to make sure that there was a presence of federal troops to keep the Mormons from losing their shit. Okay, Mormons told the losing their shit. Just one Mormon Terran is magical t-shirt off like Hulk Holtons. Well, yeah, it is a response to the expedition the Mormons promptly lost their shit. I don't know about the t-shirt thing, but probably. And probably said the N word on tape. It works. probably said the n-word on tape it works with and so

Daniel h-wells the lieutenant governor of the navu lesion issued the following instruction to his army quote on the ascertaining the locality or out of their troops preceded once to annoy them in every possible way by knocking on their door at nine a.m. on saturday morning and tell them what you got. Leave crumbs in their butter. Squeeze their toothpaste from the center. Don't break down their recycling boxes. I like crumbs in the butter. Whatever. The other two examples. Alright, the quote continues. Use every exertion to stampede their animals and set fire to their trains. Burn the whole country before them.

Burn the whole country before them. And on their flanks, keep them from sleeping by night surprises. Blockade the road by filling trees or destroying the river forts where you can. Watch for opportunities to set fire to the grass on their winwards so as if possible to envelop their trains. Leave no grass before them that can be burned. Jesus, man. And quote, yeah, so with that order, a conflict began that later historians would dub the Utah war.

All right, so looks like we are rapidly speeding towards the only time in history that Mormons were interesting, so I'm going to need a break for a marshmallow square and a little something we call apropos of nothing. Hey, 1840s, he? Hello! 1840s he? Hello 1840s Eli. So did you change your mind about joining my religion? No, no I have not. It's just not my thing.

I don't want to. Come on it's amazing. You get a bunch of wives. Okay I see what you're doing. I see what you're doing. Don't. Oh alright fine touchy subject. Let's just say some of us have lots of wives All right, look that sounds good, but uh, just doesn't seem like it's for me

Getting a wife. No, no, no the the religion is not for me. Oh, oh, okay Well, if that doesn't convince you you also get to knock on people's doors before noon on a Saturday Sorry, um before when? Noon. Noon? When's noon? Is that like during the light time hours? It's in the first half of the day.

Well, that sounds horrible. Yeah, maybe tough on you busy schedule. Yeah, I can't. What am I gonna... I don't really think I can think of anything I can do to convince you now to join our... Yeah, it just doesn't sound like it's my thing. Anyway. Yeah, I mean, honestly, you're probably right.

I mean, early in the book, it says that all dark skinned people are evil, so I can imagine it would be pretty... I'm in... tentatively. F-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f I believe in equality and I am not a racist. Thank you He this this isn't a sketch. Yes, it is. This is a skit. We're two characters. That's a sketch We'd sketch it go keep going. There's no joke. It's just unigating the joke from the previous It's a great sketch. It stays in the show Go continue sketch. We are still in the sketch You're right, Heath. You have too many positive qualities to number.

I do, it would be so hard to pick one, right? You do. Great sketch. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha- And we're back. When last we left the Mormons, they declared a thumb war on America. Tell us. A thumb war? Was what happened next awesome for the Mormons or super awesome? It was.

Well, of all the people, it was more awesome for the Mormons than some so it's important to emphasize that the conflict was only called the u-tall war in retrospect uh... at the time it was literally just the u-s-r-me trying to go to part of the u-s while a bunch of zealots shot at them from the bush is in set fire to their goats it is not like the citizen re of the day would have gotten more updates from cnn if it had been a declared war but as it stood there was virtually no way for

anyone outside of you taught or washington dc to even knows something was happening there right lately lately the elites in major cities might have read about it the newspaper but the average person had probably never even heard of you taught this time oh uh... kind of like portareco right now i would be entirely fair i've heard about you taught and i still don't care about

right now if there was a war you wouldn't okay so now that brings us to the baker fancher wagon trail uh... so we have years group of pioneers mostly from arcan saw that hadn't obviously heard anything about the Utah war But had heard something about there being golden them are hills California gold rush has been in full bloom for years by now and well It was trailing off in 1857 California would still beat the ever-loving fuck out of Arkansas

So somewhere between 120 and 140 of them gathered together loaded up their wagons and headed west via a route that was going to take them right through Southern Utah Southern Utah It's going to be difficult men There'll be deprivation and despair Dissentary murderous natives, privation, starvation They'll be endless tedious labor only broken by moments of heart-rending terror There will be endless tedious labor only broken by moments of heart-rending terror. Many of your loved ones will assuredly perish.

Their pain and anguish taunting your days while terror stalks you at night. But, but we're leaving Arkansas though. Yes, you had me at distance. It's you. You should've been bankers from Boston instead of farmers from Arkansas. I'm still with my money. You don't get me worse though. and that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that A lot of Mormons were under the impression that the feds were sending in an army to exterminate them And of course this was all exacerbated by Mormon teachings Which encouraged Mormons of their church to not only distrust outsiders, but said it was okay to just steal their shit

Yeah, like their virginity Come on premonocta is a compliment again You guys would be in weird about it all right so the baker fancier party makes it to you to the summer of 1857 where they're promptly refused entrance to Salt Lake City or I mean they're allowed in but nobody will trade with them south to them boredom or buy from them so they push off and head south along the old

Spanish trail this is when the Mormons decide that they should probably kill all of them now the story that the mormon historians will tell you relies on the dubious notion that a bunch of southern settlers not being directed by brigham young mistakenly thought this was a group of soldiers disguised as pioneers that had come to like sabotage the mormon war efforts from behind enemy lines, I guess. Yeah, but this relies on us believing that those settlers thought that some of the soldiers were

disguised as toddlers. So perfect ruse. Yeah, I feel like in reality, it's a lot more likely the Mormons were so xenophobic by them than they had no qualms about murdering children if they came from elsewhere. Another possible explanation for this is that the Baker Fancher Party was fucking loaded and had a lot of shit worth stealing. Marion age is murdering age. That's on your magic plate somewhere. I guarantee it.

Oh, yeah. Somewhere in there. I just shootin' little kids and dressin dressing them up in tiny little soldier onesies. Like, no, no, it's fine. Okay, you never know Heath. I mean, maybe one of them had a bomb in their sippy cup. Anyway, I'm very brave, but I feared for my life, clean shoes. No good.

Okay. Alright, so one way or the other, the Mormons at least have the sense not to just write up and say, hey, where the Mormons were here to kill you. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha so they decided to attack the pioneers in red face uh... hello white people that i am not we are gonna kill you now uh... indian lee we'll

that checks out but wouldn't you have a native american accent of some yet on the red face massacre you can uh... so now to be fair to them they actually did manage to conscript a couple of genuine native americans to join their party and you know maybe write a little closer up towards the white people so they won't see that we just have construction paper feathers in her hair but uh...

they actually traveled out there to trade with the native americans it was the original tp p ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha as mountain meadow. It's got fresh water, plenty of good grazing. It's a real popular stop along the Old Spanish Trail. Now, their plan. If Ari sounds better than Salt Lake City. Absolutely, yeah, no kidding. It turned out not to be somehow. So their plan was to stop there and recuperate

for a few days before heading out of the Utah Territories for the next big leg of their trip. But on the evening of the seventh, the Mormons launched their attack. And for 6 straight hours, they asked them if they had read their Jesus fan fiction. What if I came back another time? Could I come back later to see if I- Man, being on mission has really changed over the years. I can mellowed out. man being on mission is really changed over the years

i can bellowed out i mean not in south america but everywhere else yeah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha another sixteen are wounded but ultimately they repel the first wave and settle in for a siege okay i know this is the focus right now guys but i could swear those are white guys in red paint is that it's not the time steve come on the time sorry sorry it's just it's just bothering me i'm just ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha That's the whole troll of appropriations, right? Yeah, that's the whole troll of appropriations, right? All right, so the Mormons still disguised as Native Americans, kept them pinned down for five days. Through the whole time, the wagon train is steadily depleting

at store of ammunition, food, and fresh water, but for their part, the Mormons are also losing patience. They weren't expecting a protracted siege. The longer they kept this up, the more likely it was that the US Army was just going to be on this road anyway and fuck them silly over it so local Mormon leadership starts to break down it becomes fractured with some people wanting to call off the attack and others wanting to escalate it and this is that weird moment where the sunk cost fallacy and murder kind of combined

yes more often than you you think way more often and for a penny yet just described religion right there and are and a and for a pound of flesh and all right so but obviously after five days of this shit

you know the pioneers had peace together the fact that they were not being attacked by genuine indians like by then the fact that they were not being attacked by genuine indians like by then the fact that they were going like hey y'all they seem to be running out of bullets was probably obvious the Mormons had been openly hostile for to them from the second that they entered Utah and by now the red paint's gotta be fading and scraping off Mormons switch up their plan they're walking up to the wagons to attack just like we are indians dressed as morons

should they are not in here shot yet i sure hope this was them okay shut up again and close alright so the morons decide that they have no choice but to kill everyone in the party that was old enough to form long-term memories grandpa totally safe. Grandpa?

No, totally safe. I'm sorry. Okay, because I wasn't there. So, how was Grandpa and Noah different? I'm just... Grandpa doesn't do as many drugs. Your grandpa? All right, so it's Friday, September 11th. Never forget. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha to go first. This is a brave fellow by the name of John D. Lee. So Lee says, hey guys, look,

we were gonna kill ya, but you turn out to be harder to kill than we thought you were gonna be. So I tell you what I'm gonna do for you. You promised to turn all over all your weapons to me. The guy that's been trying to kill you for the last five days. And I will escort you to the edge of the Utah territory. if anything needs to be shot I'll shoot it while I still have your guns. I'll come back when we get there and That same negotiator later wrote the prequel to the art of the deal Book of Mormon all right So as shitty as this deal is the pioneers don't have any choice but to take it their settlers They're not soldiers. They're running out of bullets their children are starving so they take the deal and hope for the best

They leave the safety of their encampment the Mormon separate the men from the women a signal is given and they shoot all the men dead As for the women and children Well, they were also shut dead but by a different militia that have been hiding Behind the bushes. They needed to ambush the women and children you still some guy just got mad clearly is that you guys never let me do an ambush i want to do it and but i mean we learned that you need to ambush women and children from the way

co-op episodes now okay so to their credit the morons did leave a few very young children alive. The kids who were too young to tell anybody what happened, were just taken on a first-come, first-served basis among the locals who needed more farm labor, I guess. Oh, that's more meaning. At least they didn't get put in cages. I guess that's the only thing.

So for a little god dammit i want old timey field hand kids right uh... timey minecraft i'm not saying things were better back then i'm just saying that back then things were better. All right, so as long as you're not the ones getting shot, yeah, nobody says about today's kids, that'd be useful.

That's true. It's got a point. All right, so the militia then sets about hastily burying the bodies and concocting a story that would blame this all on the Native Americans. But the fact that the Morms openly auctioned off all the parties belongings at a local church made that a really hard sell at the upside is that it killed others people they baptized their spirits

and told god to let them all live on their own plan well that's basically no that's basically takes these back right now that's basically no that's basically takes these back and i was at the these people have been bitching ever since are you a favorite saving all that extra walking you guys don't have a long way to go alright so the exact death toll here isn't actually known but is generally

accepted to be between a hundred and twenty and a hundred and forty men women and children and children is young as seven by the way uh... eventually seventeen of the kids were recovered by the u.s. government returned to relatives in arken saw the civil war happened between those two events though and there's no way of knowing if that's all the children they stole it that's just a little bit of identify in all the people who died in the mountain met o'massacre represents something like eighty percent of the

casualties of the Utah war yeah so you know like all but one american war it was mostly people killing civilians then then somehow losing and then calling it a war they started off calling the war on drugs a war but other than that yeah now because of the ongoing war the federal government couldn't uh... they started off calling the war on drugs or what other than that because of the ongoing war the federal government could investigate the massacres so the first people to report on it were just the more minutes will ultimately concluded that there were very fine people on both sides thank you but about seven months later

uh... the u.s. rap the war up with a series of concessions to the more minutes that makes it really hard to say the morons didn't win this war that's the wood you don't get concessions if you don't win they won right yes but yes absolutely all the lost a war to the morons the united of america lost a war to the okay uh... she's like that they'll say that ultimately they won but no like that that the the fucking u.s. got nothing out of it the morons got all the shit they wanted ultimately the only person held up a uh... accountable for this massacre even was john d. le

it was apparently acting on his own no matter what reality had to say about it uh... and he was was not sentenced uh... and executed until march of eighteen seventy seven we killed the messenger. We literally killed her. Yes! Yes, buddy, it was there. It was just like, hey, a giant. So, you know, you remember that awesome, like Halloween party. We were all like, let's be Native Americans, a paper respectful ombuds to the indigenous cultures that make our land diverse.

And then you, just you, you were all like great idea but then let's slaughter everyone that doesn't have a wristband. You're not going to love this next part. Alright so I should note that one of the biggest lingering questions about this massacre is what involvement if any did Brigham young leader of the morons at the time have well that's impossible to pin down but given the historical evidence it's way more likely that he ordered and directed it

than it is that he didn't and some of that evidence is like what eyewitnesses and participants said thirty years later when they couldn't get in trouble anymore so for their part though the morons did eventually get around to admitting that they had some culpability for the eighteen fifty seven massacres were very sorry about it twelve years ago right

into that's it that's when they admit it that yes that they had done some of this yet i'm sure that made everybody dead feel better. Yeah, well right, right, exactly. They're like, you know, after 150 years, we're starting to think maybe. There was. My vision.

There was. Give it some time. And Noah, if you had to summarize what you learned in one sentence, what would it be? Think twice before you slam the door on those motherfuckers first-eat-the-thought-going-into-this so are you ready for the mormon quiz if they've got the guts to bicycle their little asses out here i've got a

fucking powerpoint waiting by the door for i'm in from the panel yeah no i'm ready for that all we're in Georgia I was just dying for them to show up and deal with Noah. I was the every day rooting for that so hard it never happened. All right Noah. Mormonism is a totally real and legitimate thing and all religious ideas deserve our respect. Except, A, nope. No.

Tom, order your jacket. Be. You think this would be obvious. Or C, this is literally why everyone being as well armed as the actual military is a terrible idea. So. All right. OK, so it can't be B, because that suggests

that I assume that there are facts so basic as to be obvious to the average person See will get me more pissy email than a I'm gonna go with a the fuck off one Sure about the hell I know Marmon origins are best depicted in which feature film a it happened one layman knife Jacob's Latter-day Saints Lee high school musical Nephite club I'm trying to even be talking about this

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha the remake and it was boring and insane as our Mormon origin so I'm gonna go with C. Correct. All right, last question. True or false. Following the death of Joseph Smith in 1844, Brigham Young added an oath of vengeance to the Mormon initiation ritual that said, we will pray for God to guide us in avenging the blood of the prophets on the nation of the United States. And that vengeance oath was not removed until about 30 years later. A true B false. Okay, the only way that could sound more like Brigham Young is if you said he was skinning a live horse well he said it so I'm gonna go with A true actually it's B false they didn't remove that until 80 years later what that's all right well the 1940s the 20s yeah in some some one in the 20s there were like oh wait, years ago when we like professed avenged the blood on

entire United States of America are we still feeling that? I feel like we've done that. I feel like we got it. We can erase that now, check. Should we check it off the list? Yeah, we'll check it off the list. They were movies.

All right. Well, heath is the most Mormon, so he wins. Excellent. And next week I would like to get an essay from Tom. Ooh! Alright, well, for Tom, Cecil, Noah and Eve. I'm Eli. Thank you for hanging out with us today.

We'll be back next week and by then Tom will be an expert on something else. Between now and then you can listen to No End Cecil on their podcast, Grumpen, Sundays at 8 a.m. You can watch the Tom and you can shoot each other. I don't make that so hard. No, I would fucking make that part. It's a fucking amazing. Jesus.

You should check out Tom and he eats YouTube channel. What, what we eat as soon as those copyright strikes come down. And you can listen to my blog if you'd like to watch me slowly come a part of the seams. And if you'd like to help keep the show going, you can make a per episode donation at patreon.com slash citation pod or leave us a five star review everywhere you can. That actually really, really matters. So do that.

Please, it's right there on your phone. Do it. 5 star review everywhere you can. That actually really, really matters. So do that. Please, it's right there on your phone. Do it. And if you'd like to get in touch with us, check out past episodes, connect with us on social media, or check the show notes. Be sure to check out citationpod.com. I already told you I'm going to keep the second one

in the show. Yeah, no, I know you said that. I just want to watch you do it. I'm gonna watch right now. Okay, hold on, hold on. There. See? Right there. Yeah, okay. Well, now hit Publish. You didn't hit Publish yet. Okay, alright. There. Good, good jokes. Okay. Okay. You're gonna re-upload it without the second sketch? You patch your ass, I am. Stab you.

Ha ha!