Citation Needed - The Murder of John Lennon

Episode Date: December 8, 2021

On the evening of 8 December 1980, English musician John Lennon, formerly of the Beatles, was shot and fatally wounded in the archway of The Dakota, his residence in New York City. His killer was��Mark David Chapman, an American Beatles fan who was incensed by Lennon's lavish lifestyle and his 1966 comment that the Beatles were "more popular than Jesus". Chapman said he was inspired by the fictional character Holden Caulfield from J. D. Salinger's novel The Catcher in the Rye, a "phony-killer" who despises hypocrisy.

Well, I just I think it's tokenizing. Okay, we don't need a she-hulk if you're gonna make a lady-hulk bind but don't call her she-hulk. But that cast though, man. Oh yeah, no, the cast looks awesome. Hey, Cecil. Oh, hey, Eli. You, um... forgot our lunch plans again.

Eli, for the last time you texting me, it's burrito o'clock is not lunch plans. I told you you I was eating with my wife anyway. Well, if I can't have you, nobody can. Oh, dude. Fuck. Hey, what's up? I heard a gunshot. Yeah, hey, did one of us die again? Well, that was a lot. A little help. Oh, I get it. You get what? This, this week's episode, it's about the murder of John Lennon. So Eli shot Cecil as pre-show shenanigans. Got it.

Got it. That is nice. That's the matter. Somebody calling him. You know, Eli, I got to admit, when you first proposed the idea of starting the show with the Maddick shenanigans, I thought it's going to get tired eventually. Maybe, I mean, give me your phone. 911. Honestly, it stayed fresh and it adds. Maybe, give me your phone. 911.

Honestly, it stayed fresh and it adds a little zing. Every show. Well, you know what? Thank you, Noah. That means a lot. Mm-hmm. Oh, it's fine. I got it.

I'll just Uber, I think. All right, you guys ready to record? Yeah, let's do it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm on. So much blood. Hello and welcome to Citation Needed, the podcast where we choose a subject read a single article about it on Wikipedia and pretend we're experts because this is the internet and that's how it works now.

It was so much funnier before Trump was elected. Now it's not funny anymore. I don't know. No illusions. I'll put to get by. I'm going to need a little help from my friends. Nice. First up two men who can't twist without shouting.

Tom and he. Okay, actually I cannot twist at all. My body is just slightly more than a he-man toy dipped in super glue. Just a little. I twist on the inside, I have a rubber sole. Okay. Nice.

Oh, you don't. You don't stop. And also joining us tonight, a guy who's very existence screams love me, dude. And a guy wishing he would let it be Eli and Steve. Nice. I wanna hold your hand. Sorry, no, you were doing something.

Frequently, I'm saying help. There you go. I'm like, come together all of us. No, no, no. We did. We did. Yeah. All right, so before we get started,

I wanted to take a second to thank our patrons, but unfortunately, it's gonna take eight seconds. So I'll take eight seconds instead., I wanted to take a second to thank our patrons, but unfortunately it's gonna take eight seconds, so I'll take eight seconds instead. If you'd like to learn how to join their ranks, be sure to stick around to the end of the show and with that out of the way, tell us Tom, what person placed in concept phenomenon or event? What would be talking about today?

We're gonna kick off the Christmas season with the story of the murder of John Lennon. All right. So Cecil, you chose the topic, which means it's probably not going to be the story of how Hillary Clinton shot him from the grassy hole. Are you worried that? Tell us how far apart happiness and a wonderful movie. Can we just take a minute and appreciate your very clever wordplay in the beginning

here? Maybe Eli could take some notes. I don't know. Just. All right. No. All right. No. All right. So who went where and how was the good John? All right. In order to tell this story, we have to first do a little backstory.

So we understand the players. Mark David Chapman, the Beatles, John Lennon and Catcher in the Rye. Now let's start with the victim, John Lennon. People who have read Catcher in the Rye. John Lennon, he probably doesn't need much of an introduction. He was a famous musician, one of the founding members of the Beatles, and probably one of the best known rock bands in modern history. I'm sure John Lennon would make an amazingly weird episode of Citation Needed, so I don't want to get too deep in the weeds on his history, but John budding heads with religion and his role as one of the lead vocalist for the Beatles is an important note.

Hey, based on this show's record, the fact that you didn't give us a history of bullets as a win. Oh, man. Okay, Eli, fun fact. The first bullet was actually hand-carved by an atrocity in a process that still cannot be replicated to this desk. Not funny, son. The Beatles in 1966 were such a popular band.

It's hard to find a modern analog. I could go back to, like, maybe 1980 1980s Michael Jackson, but I'm hard pressed to tell you anyone after that. The Beatles would be mobbed everywhere they went. Their live appearances would be drowned out by the shrieks of their audiences. They packed every house, sold millions and millions of albums toward the world and became very wealthy. John's net worth was about 3.31 million at the time and that's 25 million in today's money. He was 26. That's 197 it today. And with all that wealth and fame, of course, came newspaper and magazine interviews. And one of these was something of a turning point for

the Beatles and their popularity. Okay. Just a little context. Joe Rogan has 11 million listeners a week and is worth $100 million. God, that much. Just in case you were warning, if there was anything still redeemable about modern culture, just one minute. Okay, thanks for it. Thank you. I can't really money.

Boo. In March of that year, Maureen Cleve interviewed John for the London Evening Standard. John at the time was weeping through a lot of religion and philosophy books, pretending that he read them. And he had some dope interior design choices, such as quote, a full-size crucifix, a gorilla costume, and a medieval suit of armor." Well, waxing. No, which one doesn't belong. They could all be in the same space, actually.

They're all appropriately random. What have they done to you, mongo? To see now that's supposed to be a problem like that. But while waxing philosophical about how great he was, he uttered this line, which didn't register too much with British audiences. Quote, Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that.

I'm right, and I'll be proved right. What's more, we're more popular than Jesus now. I don't know which will go first. Rock and roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right, but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It's them twisting it. They're runes it for me. End quote. And American Christianity was like, too real. We are thick and ordinary. Probably gonna murder you. British Christianity I appreciate it. I appreciate it. It was cool. We were.

That's hilarious. Guys, we had gotten so killed in the six years. I'd probably get the most killed for we'd all get killed. Well, Eli would probably get the most. I think I would get the funniest killed if it helps. Like I said, the Brits didn't make much of the line. At first, then the states, it didn't elicit much of a reaction either. Even when the whole interview was published in Newsweek, but later someone decided a headline,

part of that line, put it on the front cover of magazine, and America lost its shit. Tons of radio stations stopped playing the Beatles songs. Most of these were in the South, but a few in New York and Boston also joined in. They also destroyed Beatles records on the radio, which I mean could have been any record. And we never heard from the Beatles. The American tour was also protested by groups like the Ku Kuk's clan and other religious organizations. John did apologize in press conference, but the American right saw its chance to keep the heat on the band and whooping other characteristics

they didn't care for, like the bands on hair and how they promoted black artists. So actually, it's probably a lot of the latter. In any case, this shit storm was all over the news and how did the band for years. It really didn't dull their popularity too much, but it would play a role later on in the story. Yeah, it's important to remember that whatever religion doesn't ruin isn't for a lack of trying. John would go on to create several more records with the band and then he'd start his own solo career, which for the record was a good reason to shoot. Not like this. It's a good. Mm-hmm. He would not stop pissing off the religious fundamentalists.

And a song from his solar days called God let him listen all the things he did not believe in. Here is that list in order. Quote. Leo Pisces, Cancer Cures, Detonks, Reflexes. Right. No. Right.

What? Here's a list in order. Magic, Iching, the Bible, Tarot, Hitler, Jesus, Kennedy, Buddha, mantra, Gita, yoga, kings, Elvis, Zimmerman, and the Beasts. John, John, real quick, I get what you're going for there, but maybe skip the Holocaust tonight.. I'm a list. Yeah. Be great.

John would also record the song Imagine, which in the lyrics, music is about a world without religion. All three of these slights against God and religion would come up later as the reason for his murder. Yeah. Maybe if we'd been more respectful of the I Ching,

a crazy person wouldn't have read instructions to murder him in everyone's least favorite book from high school. That's Cecil's official position. Go on, Cecil. Let's take a minute to chat about the murderer, Mark David Chapman. Mark came from an abusive home in Texas, where, according to him, his father, a former staff sergeant in the Air Force, would abuse his mother.

At a young age, Chapman recalls dreaming up a society of little people that lived in his walls and he would fantasize about having God-like power over them. Okay. School. Mark claims he was bullied by the other children because he was on athletic. He ran away, maybe he walked quickly away from home, he was on athletic. But anyway, he ran away from home and he was for a team, but he returned after two weeks in Atlanta.

Can I love that after two weeks in Atlanta, he was like, you know, that abusive home doesn't sound so bad. She's going back. He was also using a lot of drugs at this point in his life too. And at that point where he was dreaming of a society, I mean, society. I don't want to be on the side of the bullies here, but that is exactly the sentence I'm about to say. Would go on to murder one of the greatest living musicians, which is, I think we can all

agree, one of the top 10 asshole moves in history. So have we considered, maybe his classmates were just ahead of their time? Absolutely. So there's something I want to take issue with there. It's greatest living music. That's only true in the sense that all musicians are on that list. Everybody is. Every musician is somewhere on the list of greatest living musicians. Mark eventually found religion at 16 and became a born again Presbyterian. My case goes stronger. Spent much of his time associating with the church and he met his first girlfriend. I guess they went out handing out religious tracks to people as a date.

Anyway, he became a camp counselor for the Bible summer camp sponsored by the YMCA and was wildly popular with the kids. Everyone that worked with him thought he did an amazing job working with children, hidden that for later when we talk about catcher in the right. Okay, you know, there's a bunch of people that text just bragging about this right now. They're like, yeah, I found God as a kid.

Thanks to Mark, David, John. Oh, right. I found God. Mark graduated high school and then started working with Vietnamese refugees in Arkansas. And he would go to Lebanon as an aid worker. The wiki points out that at a government meeting as an aid worker, Chapman shook hands with Gerald Ford prompting a small group of gullible people to say, interesting.

He went on to college, but had an affair, got depressed, and dropped out. The woman he had an affair with? Geraldine Ford, interesting. Chapman was also obsessed with the novel, The Catcher in a Rye. After a friend recommended to him right after high school. I don't want to get too off the path here because I don't want to steal a book. I never read but really hate from Keith, but this book was very instrumental in Chapman's life and in London's death. Okay.

Catcher in the Rye is one of those asshole litmus test books, right? If someone tells you catcher in the Rye is their favorite book, just get the check and block them from your social media All right, so I just want to point out that when he writes a fucking blog about how JD Salinger killed John Lennon that's gonna be fucking Cecil's I actually like that book in high school too, but I haven't read it since high school. So I don't know if that's a problem. I thought I'm looking high school.

Like I need to read, catch her in the rye three times in your life. When you're a teenager, so you can be on hold inside. When you're 20 something, so you can fucking hate holding. And then again, as a grown-up, so that you can realize the hold in is a child. And all the stuff you hated in foreign realize the holding is a child and all the stuff you hated in foreign your 20s is way more reflective of the adults around him than it is the child who you hated. Or you could read Ketcher in the Rye once like most people, dismiss it as another bland

masturbatory white male centered coming of age story of a disaffected privileged asshole and then reread something that treats your time as valuable like the back of a fucking cereal box. Oh shit, Jesus Christ. You're choice. I'm going to go do a vulgar research here and then this one too. Audience, if you're unfamiliar, the broad strokes of Catcher and Arie are a young runaways first person perspective of realizing that he's not a child anymore. There's several themes in the book, but the most important is the concept of phonies.

The protagonist, Holden Caulfield, is obsessed with pointing out hypocrisy and calling everyone a phony. He's also constantly getting the shit kicked out of him for like the entire month. But basically a depressed kid going through some weird existential shit and taking it out on pretty much anyone that cares for him. He's also obsessed with running away from the world, but his powerless to do so. He's all talk and will basically comply after 15 minutes of complaining. The book itself is also on the ban book list because it uses PG-13 language and sexual

themes. The story of an over-privileged homophobic in-sell and how society is wrong, it's not him, it's society. That's what that is about. The Ben Shapiro was a book in 19... Chapman identified really strongly with the protagonist of this book. His life up to this point follows the script pretty well. Holden loves kids and his child like himself, so is Chapman.

Holden basically fucks up a lot of his relationship and runs away depressed. Here's a chicken and egg thing going on here. I'm not sure if Chapman modeled his life after the book or if he just read the book and saw the similarities, but the dude is obsessed with the novel to a pretty unhealthy level. Well, yeah, you know who else likes kids? Santa. Notice how the guy didn't start dressing in a red suit and riding around on a button slate.

Chapman's life after college is a series of career jumps and subsequent failures. He tries to go back to doing aid work and has an argument. He took a short course to become a security guard and then went to Hawaii to get a job in that field and then quit again. While there, he drove to a secluded area, put a hose in his tailpipe, ran it into the window of his car and tried to kill himself with the exhaust. The attempt was interrupted by a fisherman that saved his life. He was admitted to the hospital with depression after the attempt on his own life eventually released and became a security guard for that same hospital. So I guess what we're saying is be careful who you save people.

You might cost the world another whiteout. Okay. So okay, so when Eli writes a blog about how that fisherman did it, he's actually a boss who says, no, no need to worry. Eli is actually just going to write a post about how he's going to write a blog about it. He'll never actually write the blog. Oh, hurtful. Too far. Too far. I love you. Silent treatment for the rest of the podcast.

Too real. Chapman eventually got married, had job troubles as well as substance abuse problems. He eventually would confide in one of his friends in a letter, quote, I'm going nuts. And quote, he signed this letter, the catcher in the rye. Alright, well people who've read the book probably need a minute to process the irony of the book catcher in the rye pushing some kid over the edge, so we're going to pause for a quick break for a little app, or a whole lot of nothing. All right, gentlemen welcome to the PR bureau that must exist somewhere every time a white guy kills people.

What do we got? All right, first up we got a mass shooter who screamed, I'm a white supremacist and I'm killing people because of that. He said that while he was shooting everybody. Uh, lone wolf. See if he played any video games, then get back to me. Um, we have a bomber in Oklahoma, uh, who is literally a member of the KKK. Yeah, he had another lone wolf. Do we know anybody who can say he was crazy? I mean, anybody at all that'll say it. Well, I mean killing people is pretty crazy, but it's obvious

that the reason lone wolf is alone. Wolf is alone. He's alone. Wolf, who is crazy? Wolf alone. Leave it. What's next? A white angry loser shot John Lennon. Was he alone? No, married actually a job job just to, there's a shitty Christian guy who wanted to shoot someone famous pretty much anyone. Did he like any books? Probably everybody likes a book. Book makes guys shoot someone, put it in the presses.

Sir? Yes, Johnson. Do you ever worry that by supporting the narrative that makes these people into like famous, weird, crazy monsters we're just kind of making the problem worse? Worse, yeah. How so? Well, it's just that white entitlement has reached

such a psychotic peak unrelated to reality that it strikes me that a lot of young men at the slightest sign of their own normality will harm other people just to have any kind of importance and and that this tendency could be magnified to a truly horrifying extent by the invention of like a social internet and the isolation that came with it. Or is it video games? Yeah, probably video games. Those are super violent.

It's definitely that. Okay. And we're back when we last left off John Lennon was alive and Jesus was sad so Cecil, how are those problems right in the box? Oh no, two birds, one stone. In December of 1980, Chapman went to New York with the attention of killing someone famous. Apparently Chapman chose John Lennon to kill because he was easy. He reportedly had a whole slew of famous people he was willing to kill. They just needed to be famous. He was prepared to kill any of these people. This is from the Wiki article. Quote,

Paul McCartney, talk show host John Carson, actress Elizabeth Taylor, actor George C Scott, former first lady Jacqueline Kennedy O'Nassus just elected US president Ronald Reagan and Hawaii governor George Arioshi. And, no, it wasn't all bad. No, it really wasn't. No. David Bowie said that he was also on the list. Bowie was in a Broadway play at the time, the elephant man, and Lenin and his wife, Yoko

Ono had front-row tickets the day of Lenin's death. Chapman also had front road tickets to the same show. He just leans down, sees the three of them. Oh, forgot my gun at home. I'm so sorry. Do you mind waiting here while I run back? This is such a great free for me. I just, I'm Chapman, bummed around New York for a couple days, spending his last few

week and kind of cosplaying catcher in the rye. He went to Central Park to ask the taxi driver where the ducks went in winter, just like Holden did in the book. In catcher in the rye, Holden rented tiny, cheap hotel room and Chapman did the same thing at the YMCA. And in the book, the protagonist pays a prostitute and then decides just to talk. Chapman did the same thing. He brought a prostitute to the room

and paid her twice what she asked and then just talked to her. Okay, I feel like sex workers were getting this all the fucking time at this moment. Like, oh, you're doing the fucking catcher in the eye thing, gross. This is the word, this happens all the time. I'll fuck you for the normal price,

but I'm not touching your personality unless you pay double. So it's also important to note, Chapman is not a lonely child. Okay, if I hide in a museum like a clock start, children, it's not a whimsical adventure. It's a horror movie. Also worth noting, after that encounter, a holding coffee gets punched in the dick by her pimp either commit to the fucking bit or go home mark. The day before Chapman killed Lenin, he ran into James Taylor on the subway in New York. James Taylor is the I've seen fire. I've seen rain guy. Okay, James Taylor did not break open the doors to our hearts to be the I've seen fire. I've seen rain guys. I seriously had to look it up.

I have a hair. I'm so sorry. I was like, I don't know. I don't know. You like what are some other James Taylor songs that you know? Oh, sweet baby James. That song by the way is called Fire and Rain. Cowboys hand country road country roads.

Not the country roads, but the really good country roads. How does that one go? Opened SNL. It's fine. It's fine. I know the bit is that I don't know things, but not for chance. For Chase, I break the bin. For Chase, I don't break the bin.

Why do I open it? I literally had to Google it and then I was like, oh, it's that guy. And then I just typed the first thing that came up in Google. Literally, I've seen fire, I've seen rain video. That's what I did. I said Bob Dylan, he's like a f***ingen Radio. That's what I did. He's like a fucking, I'm staying a good, that's fine.

Anyway, here is what Taylor said about the encounter. Quote, the guy had sort of pinned me to the wall and was glistening with maniacal sweat and talking some freak speak about what he was going to do and his stuff with how John Lennon was interested and how he was gonna get in touch with John Lennon, end quote. I just wanna point out how accessible celebrities seem to be to this guy.

Later that night, he got a room at the Sheridan and specifically left several things arranged on a table. These included a picture of the Wizard of Oz, the Bible and an an eight track tape. Okay, but if, if you're in corner by a sweaty guy as a sign of pending assassination, I'm never going to another atheist conference again, yo. No!

Shit! Oh, shit! Get a feel a little bad about this though if you're James Taylor, right? I mean, like, Chapman has a list. He just wants to kill anyone so long as they're famous. He runs into James Taylor. He's like, no, I said someone famous. Are you the icy-fire and I've seen rain die?

I don't remember. They don't have Google yet. He just throws him back like a phrase. He's like, no, I don't want. Too small. Too small. Bob Dylan? Is that Bob Fah-Fah-F I've seen fire, I've seen, I never heard it. I'm sorry, never heard it.

You take out as a guitar. Come on, I'll convince you. There is a young cowboy who lives by the range. Come on, you can see what you're doing. So John Lennon lived in a co-op in New York at the time called the Dakota. Chapman waited outside of that building for him. At a certain point Chapman was distracted and John Lennon walked right by him. I have no idea what caught his attention, but he missed his opportunity in the morning.

Later that day, Lennon came out of the building and Chapman asked if he could sign his album. And this is an album that Chapman brought along with him. John obliged, and Chapman had this to say about the encounter. Quote, he was very kind to me. Ironically, very kind and very patient. The limousine was waiting. The limousine was waiting. I told you, Ronin, I can't take your time. It's not a run.

It's not a run. Yeah. It's not a run. The limous scene's waiting and he took his time with me and he got this pen going and he signed my album and he asked me if I needed anything else and I said no, no sir. And he walked away, very cordial and decent man and... Okay, I love that. Chapman clearly got foiled by John Lennon being nice when he didn't expect it.

He was like, fuck you. You should assign my, oh, you will. You will. I bet you don't even have a pen for your, oh, you do carry a pen. You're doing. But that's why this was very fun encounter. I'm sorry. I'm gonna come back here later.

I'm a lonely 16 year old boy. Nope. I am a shitty grown up. Grown up. Lenin got in the limo and went to the recording studio. Later that evening, he returned to the Dakota. He got out of the car, walked by Chapman, who was at that point standing around his place for like 12 hours. Chapman pulled out of 38, shot John Lennon in the back five times. Lennon would

be rushed to the hospital after he was shot, but he would not survive. On this day, 41 years ago, John Lennon was pronounced dead. Fuck, man, I would be a terrible assassin. 12 hours. I would give him 45 minutes to spend the rest of my afternoon at Chipotle. Are you fucking two 12 hours, right? Okay, I mean, it's sad that the music died, but hey, at least Mark Chapman's second amendment rights were in fact, am I right? Important that that guy had access to a gun all the time when everyone had one. Chapman pretty much shot him and then just stood there waiting to be caught. The dormant ran out, knocked the gun out of his hand, but it was empty.

Paul the Bulletin in that guy. Chapman was standing, reading a copy or catcher in the rye when the cops arrives a few minutes later. Chapman had written in the book, this is my statement, Holden Caulfield. The cops are just like, your statement is about how lonely it is to be a child and how we should be kinder to young people as they form your 25. Take up the hobby. And if he'd been a black guy, the official record would have said, he had been holding that book threateningly.

When questioned as to why he killed John Lennon, Chapman had this to say, quote, I would listen to this music and I would get angry at him for saying in the song, God, that he didn't believe in God and that he just believed in him and Yoko and that he didn't believe in the Beatles. This was another thing that angered me, even though this record had been done at least 10 years previously. I wanted to scream out loud, who does he think he is saying these things about God and heaven and the Beatles,

saying that it isn't believe in Jesus and things like that? At this point, my mind was going through a total blackness of anger and rage. So I brought the Lenin book home into this catcher in the rye, Mill U, where my mindset is holding coffee old and his anti-phoneiness. I'm not at all convinced that John Deere tractors and Chevy are the panacea for all of America's problems, but I am not waiting outside of Keith Urban's house with like a separate piece in an AR-15. Sorry, I just want to point out that Chapman's fucking statement basically boils down to, it's easy to be angry at pretty much anything when you suck as much as I do. I read a book once.

Yeah. Chapman was charged with second degree murder, which doesn't make a ton of sense. In fact, right before he went to New York to kill John Lennon, he mentioned to his wife that he was planning it and he showed her the gun. She didn't think he was gonna do it so she never mentioned it to anyone but that feels like first to be murdered to me. Mm, written out, sure, are you, eh?

Oh no! Oh no! Wives! Wives? If someone mentions they're gonna do a murder, please tell. Yeah, tell? Yeah, what the fuck did she think then?

Well, honey, I'm going out of town with this gun to kill a guy. Oh, you're so funny. Enjoy your weekend. And remember, if you get a hooker, just talking, okay? He was tested for mental competency by both the prosecution and the defense. I guess anyone walking around obsessing about a novel after they murder someone should be evaluated. They determined that he was delusional, yet competent. He stood trial and was convicted.

He was sentenced to 20 years to life. He's still alive and he's trying to get out of the parole. The next hearing is in August of 22. Okay, that's not going to go well for him. And I'm glad. They're going to be like, yeah, okay. Well, you're probably not a danger this society anymore your old but That book is so fucking bad

Guys guys can we all wait for him outside and shoot him right because he'd have to admit it was funny Right if we like ran over to a map who was really oh it's cuz I read where the red fern grows the red fern grows. After Lenin's death, there was a vigil outside the Dakota. There's footage of it and there are a ton of people singing, give peace of chance and crowding all around. Evidently, in that crowd was John Hinckley, Jr. Three months later, Hinckley would shoot Ronald Reagan in Washington, DC. And Hinckley's hotel room was a cassette tape where he mourned John Lennon and wanted to

make some kind of statement after his death. Next to that cassette tape was his copy of Catcher in the Rye. Okay. You know what? I'm back plus on the book again. Yeah. All right. So if you had to summarize what you've learned in one sentence, what would it be?

I am 100% willing to trade up this catcher in the rye for a pastrami on right. Yes. Yes. All right, so you ready for the quiz? It's a really good sandwich. Absolutely. All right, Cecil, which of the following fun facts about JD's challenger are true? Hey, you refuse to let anyone make a movie or TV show of Catcher in the Rye unless he

got to play Golden Puff, which gets more absurd every year. Right? It gets more absurd. B, the only interview he agreed to give when Catcher in the Rye first came out was to the local high school paper. And when the interview was published in the local grownup paper, he had a hissy fit and put up a six foot tall fence around the house. See, according to his daughter, he occasionally drank his own pee. What? What? Tractive distractor. Do you try to fuck my mom. What? Or he? He? All of the above.

Uh, I'm gonna go with all the above, because even if you're lying, it's still funny. All of the above is correct. Okay, there we go. Try to fuck my mom. She just didn't like it. Yeah, no, she was weird, gross. All right, Cecil.

When I was student teaching, I found out that I had a teach catcher in the ride the night before I had to begin teaching it. I went home and I read it that evening and I decided what? Hey, this was not a book worth reading. B, this was not a book worth teaching. C, this was not a career worth pursuing. All of the above.

I know it's D, but it's a lot of C too. Yeah. D with an emphasis on. It's really important. Our listeners understand that you were like, nah, that catcher the right was so bad you went to refrigerator sales. I was so bad you went to refrigerator sales. All right. So I have a question I want to hear for you. So John Lennon is the most overrated musician in all of human history.

Oh, what? Wow. And most yes. That's all 100% accurate. Yeppers. C. Absolutely. Or D. Oh, yeah, obviously Overrated it's not even

Exactly E E it's the it's the I seen fire I seen rain guy All right, well, you know what for that. I didn't even know his name. I read it early. I literally care Sure Bill Smith whatever. I don't know whatever. It's a common name who cares watch your parents watch my parents are both born in the 30s. They fuck to swing music get out of here. All right. No, I'm with that for that good to dunk on Eli.

I'll say you're right even though I'm obviously right. They're tied. How's that? Okay. It's obviously obviously I'm right all right. I got one more for you So Eli made an excellent point earlier. It would be Objectively funny if Chapman got killed outside his parole hearing by a guy with a book for middle school What is the funniest combination of method and Hypothetically yes hypothetically yes Kill him on a rope swing and just be like, so I read bridge to Barbithia. So I figured this is what I had to do.

Cut his head off and stick it on a pike or five. I read it. See, muskets and bayonets, red magic urge. Push him off a ledge and nobody catches him. I also read catching the right. There's a lot of ways to interpret that. Which answer do you think it is?

Ah! I'm gonna go with A, I love A. That is, it is not, you were close though. Oh! No, it was obviously D, it's obviously the catcher of the right one, but so, I think, I think he thought one and it wasn't even close. All right.

I would like a Noah. That's a next week. No you wouldn't, but that's nice to say. All right, well for seasonal Eli Heath and Tom, I'm Noah, thank you for hanging out with us today. We're gonna be back next week, and by then, I'll be an expert on something else. Between now and then you can hear more of Tom

and Cecil and Cognitive Disnatives here, more of Heath, Eli and me on the Skating Aids, Scott Alpha Moosti and D-Minus and the Skeptocrat, or you can engage in any other possible activity. I can't stop you. I ain't the boss of you. And if you'd like to help keep this show going, you can go to the purpose of donation at patreon.com slash citation pod or leave a spot to our review everywhere you can.

And if you want to get in touch with us, check out this past episodes, connect with us on social media or check the show notes. Be sure to check out citationpod.com. Okay, but what if we open the show and then did the before-show shenanigans? Little help. I think if we want to open the show with the intro, we'd have to cut the opening sketch altogether. Why do you think the sketch is off-putting for the audio? I can't reach the knob, guys.

I don't know. I'm just off-putting. I just think that I'm confused and a new listener, you know, like, that's still what the show is. They're getting into, you know? I never thought of it that way, but that's a, that's it, you guys. I hate you guys so much.

I hate you.