Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - Athens City Guide: A Weekend in Greece’s Vegan Paradise

Episode Date: April 5, 2020

When you think of Ancient Greece, what do you think of?   Maybe philosophers wandering around ruins. But they weren’t ruins in 450 BC — nearly 2,500 years ago.   The temples were marble masterpieces painted vibrant colors. But the rest of the city was small, and even squalid.    Athens was never the richest or the strongest city, and yet it is the birthplace of theatre and philosophy and democracy. Schools and science. Imagine a world without these things.   We think of the ancient Greeks ruling for centuries, but really the golden age lasted for a few decades, a quiet period between wars.   Today it’s less quiet 4 million people live in Athens — about 40% of Greece’s population.    My friend Michelle and I recently took a trip to Athens to explore the new and the ancient, and in this episode, we’re sharing our favorite Athenian places and experiences.   This is one of the last trips I took before the COVID-19 coronavirus put us all in lock down. Michelle and I recorded this conversation right after our trip about a month ago, when we were still free to travel.Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

If you didn't engage in the political process, there were real ramifications for that in society. You were kind of ostracized. It speaks to how important it is to all of us to own this democracy. The only way democracy is going to continue is if we all take ownership of it. Welcome to the Postcard Academy, a show about travel, living abroad, and location independence for people seeking a more meaningful, freedom-puelled life. I'm your host, Sarah Mike Citell, an American who first moved abroad on her own at age eight. and who has been permanently enjoying life in Europe since 2010. I am so glad you're here. My guests and I will share with you how we made our travel,

living abroad, and location independent dreams come true, and how you can too, because you will never have this day again. Make it matter. When you think of ancient Greece, what do you think of? Maybe philosophers wandering around ruins, but they weren't ruins back in 450 v.C.

That was nearly 2,500 years ago. The temples were marble masterpieces, fainted vibrant colors, but the rest of the city was actually pretty small and even squalid. Athens was never the richest or the strongest city, and yet it is the birthplace of theater and philosophy and democracy, science and schools. Imagine a world without these things. We think of the ancient Greeks as ruling for centuries, but really the golden age lasted only a few decades, and this was a quiet period between wars. Today, Athens is less quiet. There are 4 million people there, and that is 40% of Greece's population. My friend Michelle and I recently took a trip to Athens to explore the new and the ancient, and in this episode, we are sharing our favorite Athenian places and experiences.

This is one of the last trips that I took before the COVID-19 coronavirus put us all in lockdown, and Michelle and I recorded this conversation right after our trip, so that was about a month ago, when we were still free to travel. We ain't really well on this trip, and you can visit postcardacademy.co for photos and links to the places we discuss. And now into my conversation with Michelle. Welcome, Michelle. Thank you so much for joining me today. Hey, Sarah. Thank you for having me. I was just so sad to leave you in Athens. We were traveling there for a few days.

And I went because you invited me. You were a Postcard Academy listener, and I've always threatened to join people's vacations. I'll actually take people up on it when they invite me. So tell me a little bit more about why you wanted to go to Athens in the first place. Well, I'm on this six-week trip to Europe. And Athens is one of those places that I feel like no matter where you're from or what your background is, that you have to be kind of interested in it because it's the birthplace of Western civilization, really. And there's just so much history, so much culture. And it's just something that I've always envisioned myself.

myself experiencing, I always wanted to go to the Acropolis and just kind of see all of these places in person that I've heard about my whole life. Yeah, it's like the ancient pyramids and all of that. It's just stuff that you have to see at least once, I think. Definitely. I got there a day before you and we stayed in the exarchia, or I think the Greeks say it more like ex archa. I can't, my Greek accent is rubbish. But I thought that neighborhood, was so cool. Why did you pick it? I tend to find myself attracted to areas that are a little bit more eccentric or bohemian maybe and just kind of, I really wanted to stay outside of the immediate tourist district. I like to be, I don't know, I'm a photographer, so I'm the type of person who

likes to observe. So being in an area that's sort of saturated with tourists is a little overwhelming for me sometimes. So kind of stepping back and observing something, stepping into it when I want to, but also having a place to retreat a little bit. That's just something that always intrigues me. Yeah. So the neighborhood that we were in, like a lot of guidebooks will say, a lot of tourists are afraid to stay here. There's a lot of graffiti. It's kind of like the anarchist neighborhood. I even read somewhere like police are afraid to go here. Maybe that was a number of years ago. I felt quite safe there. How about you? I definitely did. I grew up in Detroit. I'm really comfortable in an urban environment. You know, I have a a good sense of my surroundings. I'm always paying attention. I read people, you know, so I'm kind of always checking out what's going on around me. And I think I look confident enough to sort of just own my situation wherever I am. So, yeah. Well, and it had like a great cafe

culture, lots of restaurants going on, like happening all over the place. And one of the, like, when I first got there, the Greek woman who was letting me into our place, she just started giving me like a rundown of places to go and stuff. And I asked her, you know, what do you like to do? What's your favorite thing? And this is something like typical that I think every Greek said, has said to me since then that we love to go to a cafe, then we walk around, then all the cafes turn into like bars, and then we'll get some food. So it just sounds like, I just love that easy going, have a little drink, have a little food, walk around. And I think that was a kind of difficult of our experience as well.

Absolutely. I think that's what I really love about the Greeks that I encountered on this trip. I mean, we met so many chill and laid back people. In fact, when we went on the one tour, we had added an extra person and I was trying to, you know, pay him right away. And he's like, hey, it's all right. Relax. You know, you're in Greece, chill out. Yeah.

So let's, I would love to, like, walk through, like, what we did when we were there because we got up to some pretty fun things. But first, let's talk about the postcard of Athens. What were your impressions when you got there? Oh, gosh. I mean, it really, I think there are tourist experiences you have in your life that don't necessarily live up to your expectations, you know, but Athens is absolutely not one of those places. It's impossible not to be impressed when you come into a town and there's just this amazing structure that just, you know, you're in the shadow of the Acropolis, just about everywhere you go.

So, and then once you finally make the hike up there, it's, It's just everything that I envisioned it to be, I mean, even more really. But I found myself so incredibly attracted to different aspects of it than what I thought I would initially. For example, obviously, the Parthenon is such a huge part of it. That is the thing that you see, the most imposing structure from everywhere, almost everywhere in the city. But when I get up there, you know, what I was most impressed with and what I was most drawn to really was the erection and just how beautiful that was. In fact, I think you had made a post about that recently and how you found yourself drawn to that as well. And that's exactly how I felt about it.

Well, it was, I didn't really know that much about that temple. But it was, it's right next to the Parthenon, but it's so much more delicate and feminine. You have the statues of the women. And you just have like more intricate design. And whereas the Parthenon next door is very masculine. You know, it was a treasury. They had a 40 foot golden ivory. statue of Athena. So I feel like the Parthenon, well, it's still marvelous and like cool and worth

seeing, obviously. Yeah, I just like the subtlety of the temple next door, Moer. I agree. Definitely. And when I was up there, I just found myself, you know, and even just all the things that you remember sort of kind in history, you know, the Doric style versus the Ionic style versus the Corinthian style, all those things, you know, you're actually seeing that in real time. And it's like, wow, this is really, it's right here. It's living history. And it's just such a cool thing to experience. One thing that struck me as we were walking around is just humanity is so awful and so beautiful. At the same time, like, I was marveling at these ruins that were, like, the original structures came up, like, during the golden classical age 2,500 years ago, which I think most of us can't fathom.

And so just thinking of like the mines that created these buildings, but then also the humans who tried to destroy them because these were rock solid buildings that could have lasted, you know, thousands of more years. But they are knocked down by war. I think the biggest damage that came to the Parthenon was in the 1600s, like Venetians bombed it because the Ottomans were keeping gunpowder in there. And so I just think of like all this damage that. happened because of humankind and also going back to the Ereca, how do you pronounce I? Carole. Yes, yes. The biggest damage from that was climate change and pollution that was manmade and those statues are actually now in the Acropolis Museum, the originals, and they have replicas out just because over time it was the pollution that was starting to mel their features. Yeah, and the sad thing about that is that's really only been in the last, what, 50 to 60 years that that that's, damage has been happening. So it's pretty amazing to think that just modern times, I think you had mentioned this as well, but, you know, they withstood 2,500 years of all kinds of, you know, assaults and attacks and yet somehow, you know, current modern climate change has done more damage than anything else. Going back to the postcard of Athens for a sec, so Athens was actually

much smaller than what I was expecting. I was expecting like this massive metropolis with some ancient history mixed in, but actually it's quite small. And, you know, Greece has gone through like lots of financial crisis over, you know, the last decade plus. But I think what I didn't realize was Greece has suffered from poverty and like financial hard times for for most of its history. And in fact, Athens was not even meant to be the modern capital. I was so interested in this. Like I went home and read more about it later, that after they won their independence from the Edmunds, Athens only had a few thousand people at that point. It was not really considered important, and they wanted their capital to be somewhere else. But Western powers who helped them win their

independence financially, and they were like still in love with ancient Athens. And so they're like, no, we think that your capital should be in Athens. So they helped get them set up there. They had a bunch of neoclassical mansions, and they helped build the city in that way in the 1800s. But because of financial problems that kept coming, so they had a bunch of Greek refugees returned from Turkey. And then in World War II, the Nazis pretty much decimated all of their, you know, business.

And so people were really suffering from hard times. And it was just like one thing after another. there. And so there was something called anti-paroki. I'm saying this in the Italian way. But that was like in the 1900s, I think like 1940s, 50s, everyone was living in poverty. The people who did live in the more expensive housing couldn't afford to stay there. And so these developers came with these deals saying like, all right, if we can knock down your house, we can build apartment buildings and we'll give you a few of them. So I guess they, so then they could rent them out and make some money that way. And then other people could get housing. And so that's why you see kind of like the modern landscape of Athens

today, lots of different apartment buildings. And that actually, and it was like not sanctioned by the government. It's just something that people started doing. But that helped to accelerate the economy, because now people were getting construction jobs. And there was housing for people to live. So they weren't like living in slum. So I just thought that was fascinating as to that's, that's why Athens looks the way it does. Absolutely. And one of the things that really struck me about Athens that was so surprising, much like you said, there's so much history packed in such a compact area. I really did expect it to be larger. I think because it just sort of lives large in history. So you've kind of expected to be a big place. But it's really compact and easy to get around. And you can see a lot

of things in a really short amount of time. But going back to what you were saying before, One of the things that I found super interesting about Athens is that, you know, it's, it's kind of classless in a way. You know, there's the mixing of people with wealth and people who don't have money as well. And they're right next to each other. There's buildings that are preserved, sort of what we would consider more impeccably in a way. And then there's right next to it or right on the bottom along. There's houses that are painted with a lot of graffiti. And there's, I think there was even one that we passed that they invited the, you know, the graffiti artist, the street artist to come around to actually.

to actually, you know, sort of create their own palette on that house because that was just something. I think it was one of the first Airbnbs or something in the neighborhood that we walked through. But yeah, it's just when in America a lot of times we think of people like somebody lives in a certain type of neighborhood, you know, whether that's wealthy or not. But it's all mixed together in this amazing kind of palette in Athens. And I find that super fascinating. Yeah. I think most countries are segregated by haves and haves. nots. And I think in Greece, a lot of it all goes back to that inti, paroki, you know, building these

buildings. And then that's how it became kind of like a mix of different people, which is really nice, as you said. And we did see a lot of great street art. I think, especially in the silk mill neighborhood, I'm not even going to attempt the Greek name of this. I'll keep put it in the show notes, but the silk mill, that was like another area that had, you know, it was like working class, had workshops back in the day, fell in hard times, and now it's starting to revitalize a bit with shops and then like artists workshops are starting to go in there and things like that. Yeah, I really love that area. I thought that was such a cool thing. And I think, you know, I'm always interested in checking out areas that are a little bit off the beaten path. And that definitely,

I mean, I know it was close. It was adjacent to the more touristy area. You know, I think we met our tour guide in Monasteraki. But it still felt a little. a little bit more authentic of what the real life day-to-day Athenian experience would be. Yeah, yeah. I'm glad we got off the beaten path in that way. But Athens is so walkable. So we pretty much walked everywhere. We took the metro into Athens, but then we walked everywhere. I guess we did take a few caps, which was very easy. And there was a taxi app. What was that called? It's called taxi beat, I believe, but it's really easy. And taxis are so inexpensive in Greece. In fact, really everything is inexpensive in Greece. I was really amazed.

at how much less expensive I had just come from Italy. And, you know, Italy, I don't consider it to be outrageously expensive. But it was probably, I don't know, I would say about a half as much as you would expect to pay for a cab, you know, easily. Wherever we were going, it was kind of like four euro, I think, in the cab. And Uber must have an agreement with the taxi companies because I did call Uber once and like a taxi arrive. So they must have some sort of, yeah, they've worked something out. but you can see the Acropolis pretty much from everywhere, including our apartment where we were saying. So that was a great find.

Yeah, I loved it. That was my priority when we were booking something. I really wanted to find something with a view of the city. I want to feel, you know, I want to observe, but I also want to feel a part of it as well. So that was really important to me. In fact, after you left, I was very sad. But we stayed an extra day. My daughter and I and decided to just most of the day, you know, we did end up doing a good walk around town.

but I just kind of sat out there and took it all in because it was such a beautiful spot and I was really thankful that we were able to be there. So the very first thing that we did, and this is what I love doing when I first get to a city, is we went on a walking tour, which I enjoyed because that helps give you some history and just helps you find your footing in a new place. So we did the Athens Free Walking Tour. I would not recommend the similarly named Athens Free Tour because I tried to go on that before you guys arrived and the tour guide didn't show up. And so there was just a group of us

hanging out. One guy was trying to call them, he emailed them, and no one turned up. So we like the Athens free walking tour. We went with a guy named George or Yorgos. I'm not exactly just. That was the pronunciation. I think so. But he was like part-time tour guide and then part-time archaeologist when they have funding. I think one of the most special things we did on our whole trip was toward the beginning. We went up to the democracy hill area, which is called, do you know how to pronounce it? P-N-Y-X. I'm going to let you go ahead and take that one. Kinnex. Anyway, the P-N-Y-X. What did you think about that area, Michelle? I loved it. He took us through this area where we had this incredible view as well. But being able to stand,

it's basically the area where they would come and make proclamations and speak to other Athenians, It was such a cool spot. It just, it rang with so much history. Between that and the view of the city, it was just, it was such a beautiful spot. We saw the stones where the Athenian men would go and talk about whatever they thought should be voted on. And they could have their like little debates, but like anyone who could vote. So we're excluding women and slaves. But the men who were able to vote and there were.

several thousand of them would gather. And you could be a shoemaker. You could be like somebody of very high status. And you all were allowed to have your say. And then everyone would vote. And he said, our tour guide was saying that people would debate an issue. That day they would vote. And then that same day they would go down to the Agora sort of like marketplace town center

and announce the new law to everybody in town. So in one day, whereas nowadays, we're like, it takes forever. Nothing happens ever. Yep. They made it happen. So I thought that was quite cool. It was definitely cool. And, you know, it was funny because when we were talking about doing this breakdown of our trip, I was thinking about the things that had the most impact on me during the trip.

And, of course, I was trying to think of something profound and amazing, you know, but really one of the things that spoke to me so much was on that tour. and it's amazing to me how many of the same problems that we struggle with today were very much a part of that culture as well of ancient Greece. And one of the things that really struck me so much, and it just spoke to me on such a level even for today was, this is funny, but it's the Greek origin of the word idiot. And the thing about it is, you know, when we are talking about people who don't believe how we believe a lot of times, unfortunately, in political discourse, will pull this word out. And I'm just as guilty of it. I'm not judging anybody else for that. But one of the things that really spoke to me about this is that the word idiot really does not mean espousing a specific ideology. That's not what makes you an idiot in Greek society.

What makes you an idiot is disengaging from the political process, claiming yourself to be like a private citizen, like your own island, to only look after your own concerns and beliefs in the world and not be a part of the larger discourse, the larger process. the larger process, the democratic process. I mean, we're talking about Athens. This is the birth of democracy. So it really speaks to me on such a special level, especially with all the things that we're going through now politically, especially in America in the year 2020, which is an election year. So it's very interesting to me how we can take this word and look at it as, I mean, think about the amount of people who actually vote anybody into office, the percentage of people who actually vote. Back then, that was not allowed. You were an idiot if you did not engage in the political process. And if you didn't engage in the political process, there were real ramifications

for that in society. You were kind of ostracized. And it speaks to how important it is to all of us to own this democracy. The only way democracy is going to continue is if we all take ownership of it. And so it was just such an incredible experience to be there, especially during this time in our own history to see the ancient history and realize that these folks have the same problems in a lot of ways that we did, much like I said before. That was one of the things that just struck me so much. It's often, when I go to a new place, rarely am I shocked by the differences. It's almost always I'm shocked by the similarities, the things that we still have in common, either with an ancient culture or even with modern society, with people who are just wanting the same things that we all

want in life, right? Yeah. So democracy, they were saying like the absolute fundamentals are, as you said, participation and education. So it's not enough to know what politicians' viewpoints are or to like spout off your own ideas. If you're not participating in any way, democracy is not going to function the way that it should be functioning. And you mentioned the word ostracized, which is something that also goes back to ancient Greece. And this was something that I found so interesting. And it also connects to what you say about how times don't change. So our tour guide was saying how they invented something called ostracism.

So if they felt like somebody was becoming too much of a demagogue was getting too big for their britches, they would kick them out for five years. And people would vote on who had to be ostracized. and people would write down in clay tablets, like who they want to be ostracized. And he told this story of Aristides. And a poor man who couldn't read or write came up to Aristides and said, you know, I want to ostracize somebody, but I don't know how to spell his name. Can you spell it for me?

And Aristides said, yes, like, who do you want to, who do you want me to write? And he said, Aristides. And then Aristides said, well, what has this man done to you? why do you want him ostracized? And the guy just said, well, I'm just sick of hearing about how great he is. They call him Aristides the Just and I'm just sick of it. And that just rang so true to me now in our like ratings culture where you have to rate people on this and that. How was this book? How was this podcast? Even rating cities, you know, or raiding the Acropolis, you know, and people are like, oh, it was raining one star, didn't like it, you know. And I'm just thinking.

It's the trip advisor of ancient Greece. Yeah, like who are we to be raided? Like everyone's a critic for the silliest things. Like, you just don't like how people talk nicely about this guys. You're going to vote him off the island. So according to the story, Aristides went ahead and wrote his name down on that clay tablet and then he was sent away and ostracized. But then when war broke out, they called all the ostracized men back and did away with the system. And they realized, you know, people were also playing politics with that. trying to get rid of political enemies. So that was something that sort of faded out and didn't work. But yeah, I just thought, yeah, you're right, Michelle. Some things just never change. That's true. And one of the things, too, I had to laugh. Artur guide had taken a piece of clay off the ground, like a clay pot. There was a fragment on there. And he started writing on it.

And he said, people thought that the Greeks couldn't write well or thought that that was a sign of low intelligence. But you try writing on this piece of clay. Exactly. He's like, it's not easy. And so that's why a lot of the letters are more square versus round and all of that. It just made me laugh. Yeah, yeah, a bit jagged. So another thing that we did, and he pointed out on our tour, but we did this a different day, was we went up the hill of Aris, which is something that I wanted to do because my mom is like Catholic and I just thought she would appreciate that I would go up the hill where St. Paul gave, like, apparently he was being persecuted around the world for speaking about Jesus and Jesus' message, and nobody wanted to hear this,

but the Greek, or the Athenians, I should say, because I think the Athenians were a special grade of grace, invited him and said, you know, we're curious about your new ideas, so come and speak to us on this hill. And so he did. And so we went up there, and I think he went back there and saw a plaque, right? I did. Yeah, I found that the other day, the day after you, the day after you went home. There's a plaque at the base of this hill that actually has a text. Obviously, it's in Greek of his whole speech. And that was fascinating. I had read about it after we walked up there.

And I was bummed that I had missed it because what a cool thing. And when I went walking back, I found it. I was really happy. So yeah. Another thing that we did was go to the Agora. So that was the shop. Like maybe if you've been to Italy, you've heard of the Roman Forum, which is like where. the shopping, like the marketplaces, taverns, music, but that's where people were debating and preaching.

And that's where, like, you would have seen Socrates and Aristotle and Plato walking around. Another thing that I thought was fascinating was there's like a replica of a Stoa, which was like the pillared, covered, like, malls of the time. And George was telling us that the Stoics, we call now Stoics, they would hang out at these malls where people were. shopping and doing materialistic things. And the philosophers would sort of challenge them and say, like, with questions that were like super deep for somebody shopping, like, what is justice? What is the meaning of life? People got kind of annoyed with them. And because they were hanging out in the Stoa, the mall gave them the nickname Stoics, which is a philosophy that I'm definitely interested in learning more about. And the Stoics just took the name and ran with it because they're not going to

get bothered by anything. Really, that's their whole philosophy. Yeah. So I thought that was really interesting. And so, I mean, the agor now is in ruins because of a lot of manmade disasters. Sacking. The barbarians came in like 267. The Harulians, I believe, a Germanic tribe and pretty much just tore everything up. But they're still, and I've heard from other people like, it's a miracle and they don't really understand why they didn't tear down this temple, but in Lagora, you can see the best preserved Greek temple in Athens. And, yeah, it's still an incredible condition. When we went in there, it's just, it's really beautiful. Unfortunately, we only had a few minutes in there because the whistleblowers started. So when the time, we got there a bit late. Yeah, exactly. When the time towards the end, they just start blowing whistles and they just, they're really enthusiastic. Let's just put it that way. So, but it was an absolute. beautiful temple. And it's really cool to be up on the Acropolis looking down on it, too.

Because there's so much green space around there that it really just sort of pops out from the landscape. It's so beautiful. And not only was it the barbarians, but like similar to Rome. You know, Rome fell. And then the forum was just kind of farmland for a long time in Italy. And people would just go in there and take the stone, take the marble, you know, half of St. Peter's cathedral. the Vatican was taken from the forum and just other Roman ruins and was the same with the agora. People would just go in there and pillage for stone for their own houses over the centuries because people weren't thinking of these as ancient ruins. They were just thinking of them as abandoned places where they could just quarry for stone. Yeah, I know. It's amazing to me how much has been taken, but also how much is still there. I can only imagine how much, you know,

when you think about it, it's pretty incredible how they were chipping things off the Parthenon, just chipping them off, you know? And yet still the main structure is still there. Yeah, it's amazing. Well, and the biggest controversy is the Elgin, or Elgin marbles. And you saw, like, the Greek side of things everywhere in Greece, because Lord Elgin and the 1800s was like the British ambassador. to the Ottomans, who was from a rich family. And he, I think, brought over artists to sort of like write down or like draw sketches of art that he wanted recreated. But then at a certain point, he just started taking things. And the British side of things is the Greeks were just, and it was under Ottoman occupation at the time, that they were just kind of like letting

things fall to ruin. People were stealing things. And so he was like, protecting these marbles by taking them back to England. But he didn't actually bring them to a museum. He brought them to his own private residence for quite a long time. And then he sold them to the British Museum. So now you can see a lot of what was in the Parthenon is actually in the British museum. And the Greek people are very upset about this still. And it's actually in the news this week because because of Brexit, there's EU negotiations and people are wondering, are the Elgin Marbles going to be a part of this? Are the, you know, are people from the UK going to have to give this back to Greece as part of like trade agreements of things? That's really interesting.

I hadn't thought about that. But yeah, I can imagine now that now they're not going to be part of the EU, Greece, I'm sure they want their stuff back. It's interesting because I'm headed to London here in about 10 days or so. And I definitely want to get to the British Museum and see it. I've only been to London one other time, and I didn't have the time to get to the British Museum. But I'm excited to go now because now that we've been to Athens, I'm really excited to go now and see these things.

One of the museums that we loved, and it was right next to our apartment, was the, what was it called? The National Archaeological Museum. That was, I loved that one. I thought that was fantastic. It was truly one of my favorite museums I think I've ever been in. I was so drawn to the sculptures, especially.

I do love museums and I love art museums, but there was something really special about this one, sort of an intangible. I think it was, for me, I know it's so easy when you look at ancient people to sort of strip them in a way of their humanity because we don't have any real connection to people that old. One of the things that really struck me so much was actually the funerary sculptures.

I was amazed by those because it would kind of take a scene in that person's life and have that sculpted on these sculptures that were, you know, well, it's a funerary sculpture, so it was related to their burial. There was one in particular that really stuck with me. It was a mother who had died in childbirth. And the woman is sitting there, the woman who died, but the servant is holding the baby and the baby sort of reaching out. And it's just, it gave me so much sense of, you know, these were real people.

Obviously, we know that, but it's just the emotion behind it, seeing that carved into a sculpture that's so, so ancient. It just really stuck with me. I thought that was really beautiful and sad, of course. But, yeah, that just really touched me in a way that I wasn't expecting. And, of course, there's so many things there were, so many works of art that were found in different shipwrecks that were there, these bronze. sculptures that were there, so many things. And when we went, it was the first Sunday of the month. And so all of the museums and all of the ruins are open for free. And we were a little bit worried that it would be a total zoo. But it actually wasn't so bad. I think end of February, early March is the perfect time to go to Athens. The weather was great. We were walking around without coats. Wasn't overrun by tourists. So I think it was a perfect time. But back to the museum, I agree with you. It was a great

collection and to your point you get like a sense of the people but then also they invented this kind of sculpture it's crazy to me to think like the Athenians invented theater they invented this kind of sculpture where you can walk through the different rooms and see how like sculpture evolved and how it like they had the idolized body for a while and then at a certain point it became more realistic and to incorporate people's flaws. And yeah, it was, yeah, definitely go there. But another thing we loved doing, Michelle, was eating our way around Athens. So much food. It was delicious. And I really loved, I'm not a vegetarian, although I've certainly flirted with it at various times in my life, but you, of course, are. And so when I was doing some research for the trip and I knew you

were able to come, I wanted to check into a vegan food tour and just kind of get a sense of what the city had to offer. And I was really amazed because when I think about Athens, I think about suvlaki and yeros and all these things that are very meat-based. And of course, there's things like, you know, Spanacopita, the spinach pie and things like that. So there's a lot of cheese. That's not vegan, but if you, you know, if you're a vegetarian, I know you're more vegetarian than vegan specifically. It's so funny because we went to a lot of different places, but the one place we went to called vegan beet, they had the suvlaki that was actually mushrooms. And I'm not a huge mushroom person. I'm not very picky eater, but that's one in particular. I just don't really

like mushrooms. And I loved it. It was so good. I ended up eating the whole thing. Yeah, I was just so impressed with the vegan food scene there. There was so many incredible things that we had that I wasn't expecting. Yeah, and thank you for being a sport. Like, what a nice friend to actually look up vegan and vegetarian tours. It was so nice of you. Of course. So vegan meat, that was one of my favorite places. It's a little hard to find. It's kind of like down this little arcade covered arcade and upstairs and there's only a few tables. But yes, we tried the mushroom souvlaki slash Euro. So some people say gyro, G-Y-R-O. I was a little confused about what the difference was about this because in vegan meat, where we were, they use the names interchangeably. And so can you

explain what like a non-vegan soup-lucky slash gyro would be? Yeah. So basically, in my mind, And suvlaki is kind of like a shish kebab. You know, you have it on a stick. So meat on a stick, basically. And they'll put that into a pita if you want it that way. Or you can make it into a platter. And it's usually served with, you know, I don't know, probably hummus. I don't know.

I'm not an expert on that part. But the meat aspect of it is more like a shish kebab in my mind. Whereas a yiro is shaved off of a cone. So the meat kind of goes in a circle and they shave it off and they put it in a pita and put satsiki sauce or, you know, whatever other sauce on it. So that's traditionally what I think. of. And so when they were using those terms interchangeably, it was really interesting how they just kind of went back and forth. But I guess Suvlaki really can be more of a Euro in like a Pita situation.

It was really good. And there were so many, even at, you know, the vegan desserts, there were so many things. The tour we went on, what was the first place we stopped at where it was on, there was some like avocado and the bread? That was actually a Lebanese place called Ferruz, F-E-Y-R-O-U-Z. And that I went and looked it up. It's called an acrobatic pie. I'm fairly certain I'm not making that. I had beat in it, broccoli, cauliflower, and then it was baked with sunried tomato and had like avocado hummus on top of it. It was quite tasty. It was delicious. I really loved that. Yeah, I was just super impressed. And now I have a friend who's going to Greece pretty soon, actually, and she's vegan. So I'm excited because now I can tell her about all these

awesome vegan places. We went to veganaki as well. We were there. Gosh, we were there like three times, I think, right? At least. That was my favorite place. And we tried a bunch of different things. They had a delicious Greek salad, which was vegan. So all of these different vegan places have a vegan version of cheese, which I remember trying this back in the day. And vegan cheese, like a number of years ago, was awful. It just tasted like plastic, gross. But I don't know what they have done. They have made a lot of advances in vegan cheese technology because it was delicious. And I just think that's great. because now vegans don't have to miss out trying the traditional dishes.

And we also had Musaka at Veganaki. And by the way, this restaurant is right near the Acropolis. So what could be better? Go to the Acropolis and then go have a meal at veganaki. But tell us what Musaka is for people who don't know. Well, it's usually involves eggplant. And I don't proclaim to be an expert on this, but it's layered. It's almost like a lasagna, you know, a Greek lasagna in a way.

There's usually eggplant. traditional musaka has meat in it. And then there's kind of this layer of like a bechamel sauce that's baked along the top. It's delicious. And yeah, I was really impressed with the one at Veganaki. We had tried another one, but I didn't like quite as much. Yeah, we didn't like that one. Yeah, the first night.

It was okay, but Veganaki really got it right. It was super good. I also had Pistitio. And I admit, I don't know the huge difference between Pistitio and Musaka. They were similar. It was really delicious. Actually, I do know. there was a layer of noodles along the bottom of the pistachio.

And it was lentils. Instead of meat, they used, I'm pretty sure they used lentils at veganaki. And it was great. I cannot sing their praises enough. Definitely. And I appreciate a place that goes ahead and does something like lentils versus just trying to do a meat substitute. I mean, meat substitutes are good, but if you're going to have vegan food, just go for

it. Just be vegan food, you know? Yeah, yeah, be vegetables, be beans. Those things are delicious. I think fake meats, I don't know. I've never been into that. So, yeah, I'm glad that they were being more innovative. I just really appreciate the fact that we had this whole new palette of things opened up to us

that we probably wouldn't have sought out on our own if it was just the two of us, my daughter and I. So I really was excited that we got to do all those different things. So thank you. So sadly, I'm not with you anymore, but you decided to take a trip outside of Athens. And I think maybe it would be like a one or two day trip if people were trying to do this. But tell me where you are now and what does it look like. What have you seen? Oh, gosh. So we decided to, well, I decided to run a car from Athens. And it's super easy to drive. In fact, it's really inexpensive to run a car. I was amazed. It was only about 35 euros for three days of a car rental. Of course, you can add supplemental stuff, but just the basic car rental was very inexpensive. So I rented the car yesterday and we drove to the Peloponnese Peninsula, which is absolutely amazing. You kind of passed through the Strait of Corinth over. into the Peloponnese. And tonight, or last night, rather, we stayed in a town called Napalian. It says Napoli on a lot of maps, but I was also hearing Napoleon. So this is a

town really where the Athenians come kind of as their own weekend getaway. It's absolutely beautiful. There's a lot of Venetian fortification here. So there's this huge fortress on the top of the hill. As you're driving into the town, at first I looked up at it and I was like, it almost reminds me of the Great Wall of China. And it's called the Fort of the Palomedi. And it's Venetian, initially, and I don't propose to know all the history about it, but it's incredibly impressive. There's also another fortification right in the harbor that, and the town, it's just, it's this incredible mix of old and new. There's a lot of shops, of course, it's very much a resort town in a lot of ways. There's, when you go into the main square of town, which is also called

Syntagma Square. There's a Syntagma Square in Athens, of course, which means, Constitution Square, but there's one here as well. And the really cool thing about it is there's these old mosques that are right adjacent to the square. One of them, I think, is like the city building, the parliament building, perhaps. I'm not exactly sure of the name of it, but I do know it has something to do with the government. And then there's another local, I think it's more of like a tourist office, but these are old mosques and they're incredibly beautiful. So there's just this amazing history around here. And we're going to stay an extra night because we loved it so much. But it's It's a perfect getaway. It feels really peaceful and calm here. There's not a lot of people here at this time of year because we're in early March, but it's just gorgeous. And right along the harbor, there's all these fish restaurants. We went and had this incredible meal last night for a really reasonable price for what we got. And yeah, I absolutely love it here. And I'm really glad we ended up adding extra days in Greece because we're currently going through the coronavirus situation. Right. So you were in Italy before Greece.

then had plans to go back to Italy. Yep. And you were nervous that you might get quarantined there if you went back, right? Exactly. I'm not terribly worried about catching the virus personally, but I was definitely concerned about getting stuck in a situation where there was sort of not knowing when we would get home. A couple days where we were supposed to leave Greece, they raised the level from two to a three, which meant avoid non-essential travel through the State Department. And so we just decided, you know, if they were to raise it again and we get stuck there. I mean, of course, I would love to get stuck in Italy, right? That's the dream, but not under a quarantine situation.

So we decided instead to extend our time in Greece and we'll return to Italy later in the year because this trip was supposed to be. My dad was supposed to meet us there and all that. So, yeah, but we ended up just sticking here in Greece and I'm so glad we did. My only regret really is just that I wanted to, whenever I go somewhere, I like to do a lot of research on it. And so I hadn't really researched the Peloponnese Peninsula like I normally would have had I plan this trip, but I'm definitely learning as I go, and it's been great. I have only been here since yesterday, but I love it. I'm already, like, mentally planning my next Greek trip, take a long road trip. There's all these places now that I want to see. And so, you know, maybe Sarah,

we can plan a Greek road trip, maybe next year. 100%. And I think you're going to go check out some islands. So I will definitely do some island hopping with you. I love it. Yeah, I just love the fact that we met through your podcast. I mean, it just, it spoke to me in such a way. and I'm just so glad that we connected exactly how I imagine that we would. And thank you so much for coming with me. It was just so much fun. And I'm really sad you're not with us still in Greece. More adventures to come.

So, Michelle, while I still have you here, is there anything else that you wanted to mention about Greece? Favorite things or words of warning? Oh, gosh, everything was my favorite thing. I was just so happy to be everywhere that we were, to be honest. One thing that I would like to let people know, I won't get too much into my own background. But basically, I have autoimmune. I have rheumatoid arthritis. So I was a little bit intimidated at the idea of climbing some of these really big structures like the Acropolis, which looks incredibly imposing from the ground when you're kind of walking around the main part of the town.

And one of the things that I found super pleasantly surprising is especially if you start from the Acropolis metro station part, there's two entrances primarily to the Acropolis. And one is more from Monasteraki, which is the full climb up. And then there's a little bit, you start a little bit higher if you go to the Acropolis Metro Station, which is where we started the first time we went up. And it's really doable. You've got plenty of opportunity to slow down if you need to. It's one of those things that I always like to let people know that maybe have some differing abilities. If you're able to walk comfortably, you know, you just kind of need a break. This is perfect. It's not too overwhelming. It just takes a little bit of time and you can stop when you need to. So don't let the height flu you. Don't let it

intimidate you, don't let it stop you, because it was truly one of my favorite travel experiences, and I'm really glad that I pushed through and did it. Yes, you did great. And one thing that I would mention is it's slippery rocks everywhere. Oh my gosh, so slippery. And marble everywhere. Yes. That is true. If you can, wear some shoes that have a little grip on them and also stand close to something that you can grab on in case you start to slip. That's really true, especially on the hill of R.S. That is incredibly slippery. I will say that. Thank you for mentioning that because I don't want people to get the impression that this is like a super easy walk. It's just that you can take it very gradually. Yeah, that was actually really, really slippery. So be careful. And if it's rainy,

I personally, if you have any differing abilities, I might avoid that area on those days, for sure. Well, thanks so much for chatting with me, Michelle. Where can people find out more about you? Well, I am on social media to a limited extent. I need to be on it more, honestly. But my Instagram is Michelle Martin photo. And I am a photographer, full-time photographer. My website is michelmartinphotography.com. So yeah, that's where you can find me. And your photos are great. You kindly took photos of me around the city. And I can't wait until they're ready and I can put them up on my website. So it was so fun. Yeah, I love them. Thank you so much. I love them. Yeah, I'm so glad. Thank you so much for just really letting me just kind of do my thing. And I loved, we just kind of would stop and do things on the fly. One of my favorite photos we ended up taking was the nighttime shot of you by the books. And I'm sure you'll share that with your listeners when I get those images to you. But it was so funny because you're standing there. It was dark. The books were lit up, but where you were, the light wasn't good. So I just had my daughter hold like an iPhone light on your face. We're just running and gunning. We were just figuring it out. Yeah, we should do a podcast episode on like photography tricks for when you're traveling. Absolutely. I would love to do that. That would be really fun. All right. Well, now I'm going to let you get back to your day in Grace because I know you're a few hours ahead of me and I'm sure your daughter wants to get going. So thanks again, Michelle. And I'll see you soon. Hopefully in the UK. Awesome. Yeah, I can't wait to see you. We'll talk soon. Thank you so much, Sarah.

All right, so do you want me to crush your holiday? I'm in. Just tell me where to meet you. And then we can do a podcast about it. Once again, for highlights of my trip to Athens with Michelle, visit postcardacademy.com. And sadly, COVID-19 has us all grounded for now. But we can still reminisce about travels past and share photos and talk about where we're dreaming of going next. So if you want to chat with me, you can find me on Instagram. I'm at Sarah Mikital. That's all for now. Thank you so much for listening. And have a beautiful week wherever you are. Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot?

I created a free conversation sheet sheet with simple formulas that you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you're in a meeting or just talking with friends. Download it at sarah micotel.com slash blank no more.