Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - Coronavirus Ruined Your Travel Plans. Here’s What to Do Next

Episode Date: March 20, 2020

The COVID-19 coronavirus has upended most travel plans, at least in the short term. So what should you do?   On this episode, I’m bringing back Phil Sylvester from World Nomads, where I always buy my travel insurance, to talk about how to recoup your travel costs, why ‘cancel for any reason’ insurance might not be worth it, and other travel insurance queries.    And, I speak with my friend Toni Mazzaglia, whom you heard on my Florence episode and several others, about what it’s like living in lock down in Italy right now.   I'm your host, Sarah Mikutel. Thanks for listening!  Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

Shoulder season is about to begin. That's that magical time from April to mid-June and also September and October, where you can go on holiday and usually enjoy nice weather, lower prices, and smaller crowds. Unfortunately, because of the coronavirus or COVID-19, most of our travel plans have been upended. So what should we do? Well, on this episode, I'm bringing back Phil Sylvester from World Nomads, my favorite place to buy travel insurance, to talk to us about how to recoup your travel costs and what? what we should be doing next in terms of our travel planning. And I'm going to speak with my friend Tony Montsalia, who you've heard on my Florence episode and a few other episodes on what it's like to be in lockdown in Italy right now. Welcome to the Postcard Academy, a show about travel, living abroad, and location independence for people seeking a more meaningful freedom-fueled life. I'm your host, Sarah Micahettel, an American who first moved abroad on our own at age 18 and who has been permanently enjoying life in Europe since 2010. I am so glad you're here. My guests and I will share

with you how we made our travel living abroad and location independent dreams come true and how you can too, because you will never have this day again. Make it matter. This month, I was very excited to be hosting people for three weekends in a row here in Fokston and my new flat. Like, half the reason I decided to actually get a flat on my own so I could host other people. So, I was going to have my friend Michelle here, who I just went to Athens with, and you'll hear about her or from her in another episode. A German friend of mine was supposed to be coming and my mom, who I love hosting. But because of all the border restrictions due to the coronavirus, they're all staying at home. Of course, this makes me so sad, especially when I learned my mom wouldn't be visiting me. She does so much for everyone. And I really love treating her when she visits me. So I'm super. bummed that she will not be coming this month, but it is what it is. We will just have to settle for planning bigger and better trips at a later date. And maybe you're in the same boat and are wondering, how do I cancel my trip? When should I pick a new one? So that's what I really want to

dig into today. So before we talk to Phil, just really quick, in case you don't know what the coronavirus is, I'm guessing you do. But I just to get it. get us all on the same page. When I say coronavirus in this episode, what I'm really talking about is COVID-19. Coronavirus is kind of like an umbrella term for a family of viruses, like the way tequila is to Metzcal, right? So the common cold is a coronavirus. So was SARS. So COVID-19 is a type of coronavirus. And it's contagious. It's a respiratory virus that kind of has flu-like, There's not a vaccine for it yet. Most people who catch it are not going to get seriously ill. But elderly people and people with weak immune systems, they are at risk of serious complications, possibly death. This is why people are taking extra care. In many parts of the world, people aren't really going outside. The disease started in China and then has since spread out. So you've probably heard about what's been happening in Italy. They have a very old. population and this has meant a lot of people who have contracted the virus have gotten pretty sick

and they haven't had enough beds and respirators in the hospitals to treat people. So panic has really broken out across the world and many countries have temporarily closed their borders. So what does this mean for your travel plans? Well, you're probably going to have to postpone them if you've got travel plans within the next two months. Over here in Europe, The EU has closed their borders that happened this week, which is March 2020. So to any outsiders to the EU for the next 30 days, the EU is closed. And of course, the U.S. has done the same to Europe. Some countries, including Italy, France and Spain, have instituted curfews, which means museums, parks, restaurants.

They're all closed. No one's going up the Eiffel Tower or eating pizza in the street. So even if you were able to travel, you weren't afraid you were just. is going to try to go for it. The things that you travel to see might not be open. And right now, you're probably not even going to get into the country that you want to visit. And if you did, you might be quarantined going in or coming out. So those are all things that you need to think about before traveling. So how can travel insurance help you in this situation? Well, as I mentioned, Phil Sylvester from World Nomads is here to talk about what we should be doing. Phil and I

I spoke about a week ago and news about the virus and border closings and all that type of stuff seems to be changing daily. But Phil's advice is still accurate and relevant when it comes to our trips and travel insurance and what we need to do and what it covers. So I think you'll find it very helpful. Welcome, Phil. It's so nice to chat to you again. I know. It's fantastic. It's been too long, though, Sarah. So I want to talk to you about travel, of course, but right now more specifically about travel and the coronavirus. So what's the situation down under where you are? Are people in a panic?

Oh, yes. It's ridiculous. For some reason, people are stripping the supermarket shelves of toilet paper. You cannot buy toilet paper. Even if you, there are people who are genuinely running low at home and you can't because as soon as they put it on the shelves, it gets stripped off. And there have been people fighting over packs of toilet paper. It's ridiculous.

And nobody can really work out why, because Australia, 60% of the toilet paper is made in Australia. So it's not like a country or something like that. And the toilet paper manufacturers have been on television. And they're going, you know, we're making hundreds of thousands of roles a day. But you can't buy any. And the other. And it's like, if you're. you're going to be a prepper. Surely you'd need food, not toilet paper.

Yes. So are people going crazy and buying everything off the shelf as well and just preparing for end of days? Well, some people are, yes. So it's very hard to buy rice, pasta, and toilet paper in Australia. And the other thing that they've done as well, like hand sanitizer, if you go into a drugstore into a pharmacy, it's now behind the counter and you have to answer it like you're asking for methadone. Oh, God. I know. It's like, I'll come on, relax people. Like, you know, get some white vinegar and a bit of bi-carb.

You'll be okay. So you work for world nomads. What have customers and potential customers been asking you about coronavirus? Number one question is, is COVID-19 covered by World Nomance Travel Insurance? and that's a type of question that makes travel insurance people's heads explode. Yeah. Because it's like, well, it depends. There are so many factors that go into it.

Now, I'm not going to speak, I can get into specifics of world nomads coverage, but we run into a bit of a problem because the world nomads travel insurance plan is not the same all over the world. We actually have like six different policy underwriters, ultimate underwriters, depending on your country of residence. So if you're, you know, from the United Kingdom, you get a slightly different policy and policy wording than you do in the United States than you do in Australia or in Brazil, etc. So it's really complicated.

And it looks like we're evading when we go, check your policy wording. But it's because it's really, really specific to where you're from and which policy you will. But let me just talk about a couple of general principles about travel insurance that applies across the board, so not just to us, but across the board. You can't insure your car after you crashed it. You can't insure your house after it's burned down. And in the same way, you can't take out coverage for travel insurance when an event has already happened, something that may cause you to make a claim on your travel insurance has already happened, you can't then buy the insurance for it. That's a general principle for all insurance.

So what that means is, you know, let's go to another example. So, you know, there's a volcano goes off. As soon as the volcano goes bang, it's now a known event and you can't, you know, get travel insurance to cover that event. You can still be covered for absolutely everything else that travel insurance are. So, you know, if you have a traffic accident that's not related, it to the volcano, if you get robbed that's not related to the volcano, your travel insurance still works for all of those things, but not just that event. Now, what happened with the coronavirus? At first, it was obvious it was, you know, a very, very serious problem in China.

So around about January 20, 23, around about there, we started saying, okay, now this is a known event in China. So if you want to go to China, you can get travel insurance, but it won't cover anything to do with this disease outbreak. And of course, that's the main thing that people were worried about. Then on late on January 30th, their local time, so January, so say London time, which was January 31st Australian time, so, you know, work it out from that. The World Health Organization declared a PHEC, a public health emergency of international

concern. And they said, this is going to spread everywhere. We are not there yet, but eventually this will be a pandemic. Now, what most insurers are doing is to say, okay, now this is a known event. Is there anybody in the world that didn't read that news? Probably not. It is now a known event. And that means for whatever country you go to, if you then, you know, have to make a claim that's related to coronavirus, you need to have bought your policy before January 30, 31. If you buy it afterwards, it's a known event. So don't expect to get coverage for it. Now, what, if you bought your policy before that date, as I did for my trip to Italy,

later this year. Then, you know, what, so what's happening now? I'm taking the family. We're not going until late June, so we're still waiting to see what happens before we decide that we can't go. But two things, even though we've got that coverage, something has to happen that triggers the cancellation. So they have to put up a do not travel to Italy ban, or they have to say, there has to be some government or organization advice that says you can't go. like the airline has to stop flying. And in which case, then I'll be able to trigger the cancellation policy.

So I'll get what I can get back from the airline and any outstanding money I'll be able to claim on my insurance. So if that happens, that's about a thousand Australian dollars for us that would be able to, that we could lose. Now, the other complication, go on. Okay. I want to follow with it. I want to follow with your complication when you're done, but just really quick. So if you were right now, at least the U.S., and I'm guessing Australia, there is a travel ban to Italy. I don't even think Italy is letting people in.

So if you and your family had planned on going like this week, say, then you would have been eligible based on your circumstance, it sounds like, to get a refund. Yeah. Okay. Two complications. Okay. One of them's good, though. So now what's happening, most of the world's major airlines are going, okay, this is, a big deal. This is, we understand. So we're not going to keep your money. Lots of them are giving

you 100% refund. Most of them are saying, okay, you can reschedule to another time at no cost. So that's a possibility for us. We can probably just delay the trip for a year and go next year instead of this year. You don't get the holiday this year, but you're not out of pocket. And because you're not out of pocket, there's no reason to claim on your travel insurance. The thing to remember is the travel insurance company doesn't have your money. The airline and the whole hotel or the cruise line or the tour provider has your money. That's a great point. You know, so that non-refundable 10% deposit that they would normally keep,

why are they allowed to keep that during these very unusual circumstances? So, you know, ask them for the money back. Most of them are doing the right thing and they, you know, no charge rebooking and all that sort of stuff is great. But if you've got one that's trying to hang on to your 10%, call them out. because, you know, come on, guys, you've got to help everybody out here. This is, this is not a normal circumstance. This is a global health emergency.

That's true. Although I will add that I would say maybe instead of just asking for a refund, do what you said and postpone and let them keep your deposit right now, because I'm talking to a lot of small business owners and their mom and pops, you know, like they do not have the pockets of Virgin Atlantic or British Airway. And if everyone cancels within the next six months, they could just be out of business forever. So if you can do it, I would postpone your trip and, like, continue to support these small businesses, especially in Italy where they're just suffering so much right now.

Yeah. Yeah. Was I reading, I think they've suspended having to pay mortgage payments or pay bills in Italy at the moment. So, you know, that's a government measure there. They're really trying to help people out. And I know my government has just. announced a $10 billion assistance package for businesses as well.

So, you know, this is a big thing. Yeah. Yeah. So sorry, Phil, I interrupted you before you had a second point. Yeah. I don't know. You remember what it was. Yeah, okay.

And this is, this is the quite ugly bit, all right? Lots of insurance plans will have what's called, a general exclusion for disease epidemic, pandemic. And regardless of who you're insured by or who you're considering getting insurance for, go and read the policy wording and have a look at what their general exclusions are. Now, lots of plans have a general exclusion for disease, which means regardless of everything else that we've just said in the policy wording, we're not covering it.

And lots of policies have that. Luckily for World Nomads U.S. customers, we don't have that in that plan. It's an awesome policy, an awesome plan that we offer in the United States, and I wish we could do it everywhere. It's just the best. So there is no general exclusion there. So then because it's not in the general exclusion, then you have to go and see what else it is in the policy wording,

in the plan that benefits are available to you. And so go and read it, and there are certain things. And I can get into that specifically, if you want, for the US policy. But that applies across the whole world or travel insurance. Now, I know what we're trying to do at the moment as well, because we work for a company that has a couple of other Australian brands for travel insurance as well, not related to world domains. And we are trying to get the policy wording changed

or make some change so that we can extend cover. rich. Everybody's working very, very hard because, you know, not only is it the right thing to do by customers in these extraordinary circumstances, but as you pointed out about the small business operators, you know, we've got to be able to do something like try and cover your medical expenses apart, you know, the general exclusion says we won't cover your medical expenses if you get coronavirus. So we're trying to change that.

So we say, well, if you get coronavirus, we'll still cover your medical expenses despite like what the general exclusion said. Because we're trying to, you know, keep the travel industry alive. People, you know, we believe in travel. We know it's a great force for positive change. And there are lots and lots of, I mean, what is it something like the workforce in the world?

It's like four out of 10 or something. I forget what it is now. But there's a massive number of people work in the travel and tourism industry. And, you know, we're trying to help sustain it. Yeah, I love that. I love that about you guys. Do you have... I know you do more than any other insurer I've ever met.

I know. Do you... Does World Nomads have a cancel for any reason, policy? No. No, okay. And watch out for those as well, because, I mean, they kind of... Yeah, I was trying to something about this the other day. They're kind of good if you've got, you know, like elderly parents,

parents and because they were already elderly and perhaps frail, then that's a known event. So you can't suddenly say, oh, my parents suddenly got really old, you know, unexpectedly got old and sick. So I cancel for any reasons. Policy is really good where they suddenly become ill and you have to cancel it because you've got to stay home to look after them or worse. But it doesn't really work very well in these circumstances because, as I said, you may not be actually out of pocket because the air. airlines and the hotels and what have you, allowing you to rebook without any fees. So what you've done is you've paid an really extremely high premium for a council for any reason policy that you don't actually need because you're not out of pocket.

So I'd be really careful about that. And I mean, and there's some quite strict rules around it. They will, you will be charged a premium, which is a percentage of the total value of your trip. So it's only stuff you've pre-booked. And then you'll only get like 75% of your losses back. So it's not a massive panacea. It's quite complicated and it's very expensive. Suit some people in some circumstances,

but be really careful about that. Because as I say, if you end up rebooking everything for free, then you're not out of pocket and you've paid a lot of money for an insurance policy that hasn't done anything. Yeah. Okay, good point. Can I throw some hypotheticals out at you? Okay, I may or may not be, I'm sounding like an insurer.

It depends. I may or may not be able to answer them. Shoot. Feel free to pass. Feel free to pass. But let's say, let's say that I'm an American and I fly to Sweden. Like, I have plans to go to Sweden, which is not like crazy affected by the coronavirus as far as I know. Let's say I go there and I contract a coronavirus.

What could I do? It sounds like maybe you kind of answered this one before where I'm sick. And so I can get like hospital bill coverage maybe. Yep. This is for world nomads and this is for US country of residence. So it doesn't apply to UK, Australia, world nomads policyholders. But if you have got an American policy and you get sick from coronavirus or a traveling companion gets sick, then you can. All right. Here's some travel insurance language,

all right? If you get sick, then you can lodge a claim against the benefits of your policy. You notice, I didn't say, you are covered because I'm not allowed to say that. Okay. There are laws that prevent me from saying that because that's, because there are so many other factors that I'm not, I am prohibited by law from misrepresenting. the advantages of our coverage. So let me say, in the policy wording, if you get sick, it says you can lodge a claim and it will be assessed. Okay.

All right. Sorry. That's fair. That's fair. I know how regulated you guys are and how carefully you need to be. So the most affected countries right now, I think are China, Italy, South Korea, Iran, Was there another? And it depends on what your home government is saying.

But as I understand it, well, definitely the Australian government. And I think the UK and the US governments are saying, do not travel to China, do not travel to Iran, do not travel to parts of South Korea. And my government has stopped short of saying, do not travel, but at the next level down, they're saying reconsider. your need to travel to all of Italy.

And the UK government is saying they are advising against all but essential travel to Italy. And the wording there is important because for American and Australian customers, as soon as your government says, do not go, then there is no coverage for travel insurance at all. It becomes a restricted country. And as a matter of fact, we won't even sell you a policy to go there. The UK's, the trigger in the United Kingdom is one level down at that advice against all but essential travel. So that's why it's important to go and read what your government's, you know, your foreign department's advice is for travel to a particular destination because that has an

impact on whether you can have travel insurance coverage or not. That's so interesting. Now, let's go beyond viruses because I hadn't really thought about this before. If a country says, you know, we don't want you going to this country because it's too dangerous. Yep. If my country of residency says that, say, for, like, war or something, then it's the same deal, I guess. Yes.

Until these coronavirus countries got added to the Do Not Travel List, there were 13, 14 countries that had Do Not Travel Advice against them. And for obvious reasons, Syria, Afghanistan. South Sudan, okay, there's hot wars going on there. So you would, A, be completely nuts to go there, and B, you wouldn't be covered. And then there is a couple of countries as well, they're not, do not travel companies, but they're on a restricted travel list. And that's because, and that's because Cuba is a great example, okay,

because Americans are more or less prevented from going there, but other nationalities can go. But it becomes very difficult for us to fulfill our promise that we've made to you because we've promised that if you get sick, we'll pay your hospital bills, but we can't get currency into the country. We've promised that if, you know, it's a really bad emergency, we'll arrange for a company to get you out of there,

but we can't pay those bills. North Korea is a great example. Like if you, we weren't, we don't even know what hospital you're in. Right. You know, like it's such a black hole that we can't provide the service that we've promised to provide to you. So we won't sell you a policy to go there because we can't, we just can't make it. Because an insurance policy, it's a contract. It says, you promise to, you know, not do anything stupid and we promised to look after you.

But we can't look after you in places like North Korea. So we won't sell you a policy to go there. Right, right. Are there any other burning questions that you've been seeing a lot? Yeah, well, look, it's variations of that. It's like, you know, when it's like that cutoff date thing for the known event and, you know, what if I've got a doctor's advice that says I shouldn't travel and all those sorts of things?

And they're all variations of that. But it breaks down to those, you know, is there a covered reason that triggers your cancellation coverage. And in some cases, and again, it varies from policy to policy. But a medical, a doctor's certificate, a medical certificate saying you are unfit to travel, it's reason to trigger the cancellation. But the doctor, but a doctor saying you're unfit to travel because you might get coronavirus whilst you're away is not unfit to travel.

Right. So fear and worry is not a valid reason to. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Look, there's a couple other things. I'm letting out all the travel insurance secrets today. Here we go. We don't cover lots of enjoyment.

So, you know, we actually only cover money that's not coming back into your pocket. So if you, there was a case a few years ago, a very popular resort in Thailand, I think it was, so a little island just off the coast of Thailand, like really off, just off the coast, a few hundred metres. And all of the fuel and oil for the island to, you know, run the hotels and whatever, was provided by a pipeline that came from the mainland.

It ruptured and spilled oil all over these beautiful pristine beaches. So people were going, well, can I cancel? And we go, sorry, but no, the planes are flying, the hotels open. Sorry about the beach, but there's no monetary loss for you there, and we don't cover loss of enjoyment. So, yeah, so it gets around those things. And the other thing is, I'm afraid to go, well, that's actually counted as just

changing your mind. Yep. And if there's no, and it's harsh. And, you know, but that's why World Nomads has all that really, I mean, we're not just an insurance company. We have all that great content there. And of course, our travel safety advice is incredibly popular because what we're doing there is trying to arm people with the knowledge

that they need to be able to stay out of trouble so that you aren't afraid to go to somewhere. So, I mean, you'll know this. I mean, it's funny. I was on a radio program with some journalists the other day and talking about places we should go in 2020. this was all pre-coranavirus. And I was mentioning, and I said,

Colombia is really hot. And it is. It's really booming. It's just a fantastic destination as well. But the reaction is normal from people, and I was waiting for it, and they've gone, oh, you know, what about, you know,

the drug problem? And it's gone, people, Pablo Escobar was shot dead by the police in 1996. Stop streaming narcos on Netflix and get over there. The place is awesome. 100%. Yeah. So, you know, people have perceptions that are places dangerous, which you can solve with knowledge, which is what world nomads is about trying to get rid of that fear so that people can explore their boundaries and go and learn about the world. Yes, I think the most dangerous thing that we can do is just stay at home forever and not go anywhere ever again. And people just like are watching the news and the TV and seeing all the awful things. And it's like, oh,

You know, maybe if you're under quarantine or like, you know, or forced isolation for a little while, like, fine. But then, you know, we've got to open our doors and be human again. Like I was in a, these last few weeks, like I was in Athens with a friend of mine. And then I had to fly to Florida for a podcast conference. And it was really interesting seeing the dynamics between people. They had at the conference like badges, like stickers you could put on like whether you were open to receiving hugs or handshakes, which is fine. which is fine, but a lot of us were like, we still want to hug and shake hands. Like, we haven't lost our humanity. And you can just take precautions, like watching your hands for 20 seconds, which is what is everyone's telling you to do and what you'll see in all of the airports. So I think just like being a bit sane and, you know, about all of this. And in Australia sneaking into the drugstore and whispering, Can I have some hand sanitizer, please?

All right, let's check in with my friend Tony of Taste Florence and see how she is doing. Tony, welcome back to the Postcard Academy. I'm so glad to be talking to you again. I'm glad to be back. So you are the founder of my favorite food tour company in the world, Taste Florence in Italy, which unfortunately is on coronavirus lockdown right now. What is the scene like in Florence? Does everyone just hold up in their apartments? For the most part, to the best of my knowledge, because I'm actually kind of in the countryside. I'm in Florence, but I'm in an area called Belos Guardo, so since we're not supposed to leave the house, and I haven't in the last 24 hours now, I don't know firsthand, but I actually got some messages from Carolina, my British friend who lives down the street, and she was out and said that last night the streets were empty and it was almost scary. So are the restaurants closed?

Are the museums closed? The museums are definitely closed. The restaurants are closing slowly but surely. I have yet to verify how many. I'm just going to start calling them today because since I can't leave the house, I can't go and look. But the thing is we get all these messages.

You know, everyone is on WhatsApp, sending messages and videos and audio. And I got an audio recording forwarded from a friend. It doesn't specify who it is, but it sounds like it's an officer of some sort. just saying basically, you know, if you guys haven't figured it out by now, you're on lockdown. Think of it like a coprifo, which is kind of like a curfew, you know, at night. You know, the only people that should be going out are people that have serious medical issues like someone getting chemotherapy.

You can go to get groceries. So what I can tell you from friends who've been out is that the grocery stores are letting in only 10 people total at a time. And so that means you're only letting two in the. door at a time and then like as they come out so that it keeps it an even flow. So people are lining up kind of, you know, almost like they're camping out for a concert, but to get groceries. It sounds like a nightmare scenario. So is there grocery delivery there? There is. And fortunately, and well, I don't want to jinx myself. I made an order about a week ago. But I mean, even in a week ago, it was already, normally when you get online, it will deliver within two days.

you can choose further out, but you don't have to. The soonest possible option was a week. And so I'm supposed to get my groceries on Saturday. But, I mean, that's if all goes well because they're really backed up. Oh, man, this is awful. And I had plans to come visit you for your birthday. And it sounds like I'm not going to be let in, but that's okay. We'll celebrate in April.

And hopefully, like, because you're Italy's on lockdown until at least April 3rd. So this must have taken a huge hit on your business. I'm so sorry. What's that been like? It's been pretty bad. You know, up until Saturday, we were still hopeful and thought that, you know, as long as we kept the meter distance that was being required by the government and, you know, made sure that everything was on the up and up that we would possibly be able to do tours for the next few weeks.

And then, of course, everything just kind of escalated. in the last few days, obviously, things have changed. So tours have been canceled this week. I'm still dealing with cancellation or, what is the other word? Sorry, I'm so tired. I've been doing emails for a week now. Postponement or something? Yes, that's it.

Thank you. Postponent. We're grateful for anyone who is willing to take a voucher because it isn't that we want to keep people's money. It's just that I can see the bank account getting empty and I mean empty and I still have to pay staff and overhead and things like that. It's not a pretty picture and I'm not alone. I mean, restaurants, hotels, other tour guides. I know a girl that's a tour guide who had to cancel her wedding in May because she can't afford to do it

and because no one wants to commit to buying a ticket when they're not sure. Right. And like you said, even if you wanted to do the tours, so a few weeks ago it was only Northern Italy affected, but now it's the whole country. And so even if tourists are in Italy right now, and I'm so sorry if they are because it sounds like you can't do too much, you wouldn't be able to take them around anyway, which is awful. No, up until Saturday we could. And we were still being cautious. We gave them an option to, at that point, I think Saturday was the first time we gave our guests an option to opt out just because we were starting to see that things were getting a little more serious. not as serious as they are and have come to be now, but we were kind of seeing that things were changing rapidly. And this is so sad because in other sort of, I guess, natural disasters, it can kind of bring people together, like there's a blackout or a hurricane and people sort of like meet communally and we'll have like dinner by candlelight or something. And this, everyone's told to like not be with anyone. Do you think this is an overreaction?

I don't think it's an overreaction. I hate to say it. I only wish that we had figured this out earlier because I think the main problem was that even though it's really funny, you know, Italians are famous for breaking the rules. They don't even like to stand in line. But the government, and I don't very often plug governments, the government I feel like did really the best they could. They tried to contain it. you know, take care of patients that had it and figure out who was getting it as efficiently as possible and without getting it more people contaminated. The problem is that while they were doing that, they left everyone else to, they trusted everyone else to make wise choices. But we were making choices based on very little knowledge at the time. And I think that we just as human beings are hopeful and naive and just trying to be positive. And so I think we all didn't want to want to believe how quickly this virus could spread. And that's why people went on with their daily lives, even if they did it maybe more responsibly than normal. And now it's, as a result,

it's starting to spread faster than it should have. So I think a lot of it was, you know, people on business trips and things that are taking the fast trains back and forth. They were coming in and out of Milan. I don't want to blame it on Milan or Lombardia. I'm just saying they were. Those are the northern regions where it first broke out. Yeah, they were coming in and out of there for business trips and things. I think that's what allowed it to spread to. It's a small country. We have a really good public transit system and then our trains.

And in this case, it actually was to our detriment. Yeah. Well, and just to bring it back into like what the coronavirus is, and it's primarily affecting elderly and people who are already sick. and Italy does have a lot of elderly people. Most people are not going to really be that harmed by this virus, but certain people will. So we just need to be mindful of who could be spreading it around, which could be anyone, and who would be most affected.

So if you are around, like, older people or people who are sick, you know, it's our responsibility to do what we can to, you know, wash our hands and make sure that we don't spread around. Because we might personally not get that ill, but other people could. Exactly. And then a big thing is what the difference is this is a new virus. It's only been around for a few months, whereas the flu has been around for, you know, thousands of years, I think about 2,000 years. So, I mean, I'm not a virologist or anything like that, but just things have been reading from reputable sources. So that's what worries me is that we as a human race does not have immunity to this. And we haven't built up any immunity. We don't have. have it in our DNA anywhere. I mean, I don't want to sound drastic, but it has a 14-day incubation period. So that means that I could have it right now, and I won't know until next week or the week after. And in the meantime, if I had, you know, two weeks ago, I would have been walking around minding my own business and could have given it to somebody accidentally. So that's what I,

I just think that we're not focusing on that part enough. Well, and you feel very passionate about so passionate that you started to do your own coronavirus podcast. So tell us where we can listen to that and also, I guess, what you're talking about on this show. So, yeah, it's a very new podcast. I brought out the first episode yesterday because yesterday was my first day in quarantine. And I was thinking, you know, those of us that are in countries that have already been affected have, you know, certain, knowledge and experience that, you know, the rest of us are about to learn that lesson themselves. But I just was hoping that we could spread some information so that people can be a little more

realistic and how they cope with it and how they prepare for it. Because if we had prepared a little better, I think it would have made a big difference. And what's the name of this show? It is called Corona Podcast. Well, I will link to that in the show notes so you can get easy access to Tony's show. Well, thank you very much for chatting with me, Tony. Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate it.

And again, I in no way I want to be alarmist. I just want to, you know, share my thoughts being in this current situation and hopefully help someone. Very unique perspective. Thank you very much. Thank you, Sarah. All right. So that conversation that I had with Tony was also about a week ago around the same time I talked to Phil. And things have gotten even more serious in Italy as far as the lockdowns go.

So I'm very glad that Tony is off in the countryside. I just saw that she got a case of wine has arrived, which was going to be for her birthday party. So I said we can hold a little virtual global party for her on her birthday. So that should be fun. So we just have to make the best of things, right? Some other silver linings. You might find some airfare deals right now, although not as many as you would expect, because the airlines are canceling a lot of flights.

But I saw that a lot of airlines are also instituting a policy that if you buy a ticket now, they'll waive the change fee later if you decide that you need to change the flight within the next few months. Some of them give you up to 12 months to change your flight. So I feel like that takes away a lot of the risks. So why not book some flights now, like a few months out. I mean, I can't tell you what kind of a risk to take. I know I'm a risk taker. So I'm going to plan to actually book some of the summer holidays that I wanted to do. I'm an optimist. I hope things go well and that we just need to keep a level head about all of these things. Right. Most people aren't going to get sick. The real damage that comes with these pandemics is when everyone freaks out. It's the fear and the anxiety. And not to minimize the people who do get sick. I don't mean. to say that this isn't a serious disease. It is a serious disease. We need to take it seriously. But things will get back to normal. Humans have a tendency to feel like everything is permanent,

that the unease that they feel will go on forever. And this is why we have such a hard time making decisions. We fear that we're going to make the wrong decision and it's going to ruin our lives forever, but nothing is permanent. That pendulum is going to swing back. You have been through hard times before. I have been through hard times before and we've risen to the challenge. Most people have gone through a breakup. A lot of people, including me, have lost jobs. You know, it's scary when these things are forced upon you and you just want somebody to say it's going to be okay, right? You want the reassurance that you're going to get another job that, you know, that things are going to be all right. And they will be all right, right? Because you've been through this kind of stuff before.

for. We just have to stay calm and look forward to those days because fear isn't going to solve anything. We can't worry ourselves into making things right. Anxiety is only going to make you sick. So if you feel like you have a lot of extra energy right now, channel it into something positive for yourself or for somebody else. Maybe you've been thinking about starting an online business or learning photography or French. Now is the time to do those things. We can think about what we don't have right now or we can be grateful for what we do have. And if you have your health and a roof over your head, then you are more blessed than millions of people out there. I mean, I wish my mom were here right now. I wish I could go home. We're like stranded on different continents.

But it is what it is. So we're making the best of things. We're FaceTiming. You know, you can still have connection with others, even if it's remotely. I love quoting Brendan Mushard. So I'm going to share something that he sent out to his audience recently about the coronavirus. You can be a role model and how you deal with this. You can keep a positive attitude and remain calm, thoughtful, productive, compassionate, disciplined in your healthy habits, and faithful and energized in your march toward your dreams. Or you can prop 20 bottles of wine, stop seeking your goals, complain, watch every episode of every TV show ever, dive deeper into distraction, wade into the pool of pessimism, and check out from your day, your goals, your family, your team, and your purpose. I know which option I'm choosing

because there is a choice. We can choose meaning or we can choose misery. And I definitely want the former for you. Because what if we all did die tomorrow? I mean, we're not all going to die tomorrow, but what if we did? How would you want to spend that last day, right? Like what attitude would you want to have? I'm guessing you would want to enjoy that last day. What would you say to the people that you care about if you had that one last day. You can say those things now. You can live that life right now. You can live in that mindset right now. So chin up, my friend. Let's use this gift of time to work on ourselves, our businesses, our desires. We can use this time to plan our dream trips, which we will make happen and to create the lives that we want. We can waste away these days

in worry or we can create something great. And I know that you are going to create something great and that everything is going to be okay. That's all for me this week. If you want to support the Postcard Academy podcast, one way that you can do that is to buy your World Nomads Travel Insurance via my website, postcardacademy.co slash insurance. They've also got some great travel safety articles that I will link to in the show notes. And once again, you can check out Tony's podcast, Corona Podcast, and your podcast player of choice. That's all for now. Thank you so much for listening and have a beautiful week wherever you are. Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot?

I created a free conversation sheet sheet with simple formulas that you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you're in a meeting or just talking with friends. Download it at sarahmicatel.com slash blank no more.