Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - Feel More at Ease When All Eyes are on You

Episode Date: November 22, 2025

My guest today, Sunalie, is a warm and gifted journalist – and also a former client of mine.During our time together, she had so many meaningful wins. Hearing about the specific shifts she made will help you strengthen your own confidence and communication skills – including how to feel more at ease when all eyes are on you. Sunalie has been with her partner for over 20 years, but they never got married. Not because she didn’t want to, but because the thought of standing in front of a room with all eyes on her felt overwhelming.That tension – wanting a moment, but not wanting to be seen – is something many of us can relate to.We shrink to protect ourselves. It’s a pattern we learn early. But at some point, most of us start questioning how we’re living, who we want to be, and whether we’re satisfied with how we’re showing up. We start wondering what else might be possible.What you’re about to hear is a conversation about what can shift when you stop bracing for disappointment and start letting yourself be seen.Sunalie didn't just learn to speak up more. She learned to share more. She learned to feel comfortable being herself. And that changed the trajectory of her work, her relationships, and her confidence.If you’re at a similar crossroads – you’re successful, but you can feel that you’re still putting up walls or playing small – this episode will resonate. Enjoy!❤️If you’re listening and realizing you’re ready to begin your own transformation story, book a free consultation with me today. This is the work I love doing most – helping you get out of your head and start looking and feeling more confident in your communication.Book your free communication coaching consultationwww.sarahmikutel.comDo you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

Today I am speaking with Sunali Silva, a warm and gifted journalist and also a former client of mine. During our time together, Sunali had so many meaningful wins, and I know that hearing about the specific shifts that she made is going to help you strengthen your own confidence and communication skills. So I was thrilled when she agreed to come on the podcast and share so openly. Sunali has been with her partner for over 20 years, but they never got married, not because she didn't want to, but because the thought of standing in front of everyone with all eyes on her felt really overwhelming. And that tension of wanting something really badly, but also not wanting to be seen, this is something that so many of us can relate to. We shrink

to protect ourselves, and this is a pattern that we learn early. But at a certain point, most of start questioning how we are living, who we want to be, and whether we are satisfied with how we are showing up, we start wondering what else might be possible. What you're about to hear is a conversation about what can happen when you stop racing for disappointment and you start letting yourself be seen. Enjoy. Welcome Soonali. Thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure to be here. I think the last time we caught up was probably about two weeks ago, our last session, so it's nice to see your face again. Before we jump into everything that's been going on for you recently, let us know who you are, where you're living, what you do for a living.

Oh, sure. So I'm a medical journalist. I write for doctors. A day for me could be writing for oncologists, general practitioners, hematologists, all sorts of doctors. I live with my partner of 21 years and my son Henry who's 10 years old here in Sydney in Australia. I've been in my profession for about the last 20 years and yeah, that's me. One of my favorite stories and when you told me this story, I was like, oh, I hope Sunelli wants to share this because I think it would be so helpful to people. It's the story about going to the concert with your husband. Yes, yes, right. So yeah, we weren't just talking about work with my communication issues. You know, obviously it bleeds into all my relationships.

And I said to you that, oh, that's right. We had to shift one of our sessions because I said, oh, I'd booked these tickets last year for this concert that I know it's a band that my husband and I used to listen to like 20 years ago and they're doing this reunion concert. And so I booked it way back when and I had said, I have a, I know my husband's going to, on the day, say, I'm too busy. I'm just, I'm too tired. And I had this kind of feeling in the, in the back of my mind that that's how it would go, because that's how it often goes. So I said to you, and if he doesn't want to go, that's fine. I'll take a friend. I'll take my

mum. And you said, well, what if you were just honest and said, I'm really looking forward to this. And I'd be so sad if we didn't get to go together, because I really want to say it with you. and I said, oh, that kind of filled me with, well, I had this pit in my stomach because, again, it was being a little bit vulnerable. I said, look, I'm going to try it. I'll try it. And I think we even talked about how do you even start that conversation you asked, how would I start that?

And I said, well, often I'll say on the morning of, just before he's going to work, I'll say, don't forget you have this thing with me tonight. And we talked about maybe even reframing that. so it's not a thing to check off or another thing to add to your list. How about, oh, I'm really excited about this concert tonight. I've booked us this great place for dinner. Can't wait to go after work. And so I tried that.

And it immediately lifted the vibe between us straight away. And that set the tone, really, for the rest of the day and that evening. Just being honest about how excited I was about this thing, even knowing that there was very likely a chance, it'll say, you know what, I'm kind of tired. I can't make it. But then knowing that I'd be okay with that too, with at least it's out there. And we ended up going out.

We had a great time. We had a great dinner. And we came home and he said, you know what? I was really tired and I wasn't looking forward to it, to be honest. But you seem so happy. And so I went along and he said I actually had the best time. I forgot how much I liked them. And it inspired him again to pick up his guitar and start playing.

So it was just a tiny little shift in the way I expressed myself. But it had a big flow and effect throughout that day. Yeah, it had a huge ripple effect. It sounds like your normal habit was like, all right, I'm going to tell him last minute that he has to do this thing. Yeah, because I felt like, I felt like if I make it last minute, then it won't, because I know I'm going to be disappointed. So I'd rather be disappointed right at the end than spending months knowing that I'm disappointed because he'll say I'm really into that. And yeah, so I was going to wait until the last minute. But that strategy sort of makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy because, of course, if you tell someone

drop something at the last minute that it's not going to go smoothly. But that was the pattern that we evolved with each other. And it was vulnerable for you to be honest about, I'm really excited. And it's you who I want to go with. And it sounds like using that language really opened him up. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the other things that we talked about when we first started doing our sessions was that I wanted to be more of an authentic communicator. And I know that word gets thrown around a lot and what does it mean? But I suppose being able to access that vulnerability in communicating with loved ones especially. And so that was something that I was trying to access to. So that was a perfect moment to experiment with that and try that out. And, you know,

it wasn't a huge high stakes thing, which is why it was a good time to test that out. And yeah, it was turned out to be a fabulous night for both of us. So we had talked a bit about the two different paths you can follow of just being comfortable and following that path, the way you always communicate, or you can take the sort of other road that's a little bit uncomfortable but could lead you to something else. So I do always think about that now. The Hercules choice, yes, the Hercules choice. You can follow your habitual patterns or you can choose the highest self-rout. And that's what I chose that night. What made you decide at this point in your life that you wanted to work on in your communication?

I think for me, I was just noticing that, you know, I was coming to this great point in my career, I got this, my dream job, essentially. And I was feeling the pressure of existing in that space of the dream job. And that was making me put some big, big walls up in the way I communicate with people because I was wanting to be perfect, I guess, and present ideas in a perfect way, pitch really great ideas that appeal to everyone in the room and it kind of, that kind of

thinking sort of paralyzed the way I communicated with people. And it kind of shrunk who I was in those spaces. And so I knew it was something I had to work on. I couldn't do it on my own, I guess. I know one of your values is connection. And it sounds like your fear of not being perfect was actually a huge barrier to the connection that you wanted to build. Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point because it just meant that I didn't speak up in team meetings. It meant that I didn't share my ideas because I had, which I'm sure lots of people have these voices in their heads that say, well, why would my idea be any good to listen to or why would I take up all these people's time with this particular idea? I'm sure the person sitting next to me or everyone else in this room has got a better idea than I do. So let's give them the floor.

and what that meant was that no one ever really got to properly connect with me because they didn't know what I valued and what I stood for in those meetings. I think that was what was wearing me down, the fact that I knew that I wasn't connecting my values to the way I communicate in that space. What did you try experimenting with? At the time before you and I started working together, I just tried anticipating everything that everyone was going to say and then researching and researching everything I possibly could to come up with answers.

And then, so that classic thing, it would be, you know, for prepared and then just having a headfall of ideas. And then it just been a big jumble and not being able to be really clear on any one thing. So it was this kind of vicious cycle. So then you and I started to work together. And the biggest thing, I think, was to clarify my values, to really understand. you know, what my core values were. And it did come down to connection and giving people,

I think one of my biggest one was to give people that sense of safety in being able to talk to me and express themselves. But that required, realizing that required me to show some vulnerability too because it's hard for people to feel safe around you if you're not willing to be vulnerable back. So that was the biggest thing. And then the second thing was then shifting my goals, learning to shift my goal from thinking that a win in these conversations were presenting

the best pitch, that everyone in the room agreed with what I put forward, and shifting that to the goal being I spoke up and that helped foster some kind of connection with those people in the room. And then that led to us discussing ideas, workshopping, some of the ideas that I put forward, some of them got through and some of them didn't, but it was believing that I would be okay with that, learning to reframe the idea in my head that it's not a loss or a failure if an idea doesn't get through, that it's okay if someone doesn't accept what I say or wants to go back and forth a bit, learning to be okay with that. What I loved about working with you and there were many things was you were willing to experiment and to try things and to explore

and really implement the things that we talked about. So when you started to embrace that way of looking at goals and values, how did that change how you showed up at work and your interactions in meetings? Oh, it was such a huge revelation when I started looking at things that way. It allowed me to experiment a bit more. It sort of gave me permission to mess things up as well, you know, and to, in my mind, say this is all a little bit of me experimenting and collecting evidence to say that you are the sort of person that's okay with not being right about everything,

about having everyone completely understand what you put out there in the first go. And so it was kind of, it was kind of fun because all of a sudden I had this permission to start doing these tiny little experiments, which I'm sure no one really realized I was doing it. It was big for me inside. The thing was having our weekly catch-ups, it just allowed me to keep going because, well, I was accountable for these, you know, these little experiments and one foot in front of the other just kept going with them. And a lot of the times they worked and sometimes they didn't, but because it was framed under I'm the sort of person that's okay with that, then it allowed me to keep going.

Just that little shift in mindset really opened up a lot of doors for me in the way I communicate. Yeah, and would you say you feel more comfortable talking in meetings and engaging with people? Yeah, definitely. I think I remember, you know, we'd jump online to have a chat and you'd say, so what's been going on this week? And I would invariably say, nothing much. You know, it's been a pretty slow week. And then I'd say, well, I've pitched this idea at this meeting and you'd stop and say,

well, hang on a minute. That's kind of a big thing because that was a scary thing for you before. And so you kind of don't realize it at the time. I didn't realize at the time, but when you look back on the week, or the two weeks and gradually over a month, you can see that these are big shifts. And I have become a more vocal voice in the room. Yeah, you even got promoted. I did. Even dreamier dream job. It's so true. It's so true. Yeah. It's so funny because just the way that I was able to communicate more, people got a sense of the kind of stories I valued in these,

meetings, the kind of stories I wanted to tell as a journalist. And that really allowed them to see that I might be a good fit for another role that was coming up. And I think perhaps if I, if I wasn't so vocal, as vocal as I had been in the last few weeks, that might not have happened. So cool. Celebrating that win again. Yes. We've talked about small moments that mean a lot to us that other people might not notice. And I think that's common for. everyone. As we are sharing stories or concerns out loud, a lot of it is like, oh, well, I guess it's not that big of a deal. But internally, it's a huge deal. And I think it's so important to work on these smaller things because they do have ripple effects. And they mean a lot more in the

larger context, especially when it comes to trying to improve our relationships with people we know. and then also having more pleasant interactions with people we don't know. And one of the stories you shared with me was getting a book signed. You went to a book signing. Can you share that story? Yeah. So a journalist that I follow here, I've been following her work for a while, she had published a book and I had booked a couple of tickets for a friend and I to go and see her.

Now, this friend couldn't make it in the end. and so I said, okay, I was happy enough to go alone. And I remember thinking, I'm the kind of person that are book signings. I'm happy to listen to the talk, but in my head, but when at times a book comes to the book being signed, I think, do you know what? They're probably really busy. They've probably got loads to do. They probably have a big party planned after this with their actual friends.

They don't want to talk to me. They don't want to have to listen to me, you know, talk about how much I admire them. So I'll just buy the copy of the book and I'll walk out quietly. But I remember thinking, I really do want her to know that I appreciate everything she's doing and I know how hard it is. And I remember thinking, oh, in that line, what am I going to say? I've got nothing really super profound to say. But I said to myself, I'm, you know, I'm okay with not being, you know, saying something

super profound. I just want her to know that what she's doing is amazing. And I essentially said that when I got up there. I wish I had something bigger to say, but I've been following you for a long time and I think you're amazing and I think you're really brave. And I really, I really appreciate what you're doing. And she signed the book and we had a little really nice interaction. And then I left, but I remember feeling so great, not because of how it made me feel, but I was just pleased. that I was able to convey and show my appreciation and gratitude towards her. And I remember we spoke about it afterwards. And I think the thing about that was the shift there was moving away from, oh, I feel so

embarrassed or what if I say something silly or what if I'm wasting her time and shift into, I'd really like to let her know how great she is for what she's doing, really took the burden of and the anxiety of performing that perfectly away and it made it more about her rather than me. So that that was a big shift that I didn't necessarily see at the time. It was only after we were talking about it that I noticed that. Yeah, I think that's such a relatable example. And I've been there myself where I've gone to see an author. And yeah, I've had the same the same conversation in my mind, like, hmm, what can I say that's so profound or that will be so into?

Yes. And I think you, I think the approach that you took was so much more meaningful. We don't need to sell ourselves as the worthy audience. It's more about showing appreciation and that just that completely changes things. So, yeah, I love that it was focusing on, oh, what's a gift? I can give them rather than trying to impress and trying to impress this person. Yeah, and I just, it's, you know, when I think about those interactions, you know, the work interactions and the book signing and you think there's part of you trying to

protect your ego perhaps, and that's where the vulnerability comes in. And when you shift the perspective and the lens that you view it from inward to outward, it really, it really helps to, like I said before, relieve that anxiety of performing a certain type of communication and it becomes more authentic, I feel. I wanted to tell you about how the actual speech went for my husband's birthday. Yes, I'm dying to know. Well, it, so I had it all written out,

and it was so good that you and I had that chat beforehand because when I centered it around just the qualities and attributes that it just, it just flowed, it just came so easily. And you're right, I just whipped it up in an hour and it felt so much more heartfelt. So on the night of the party, it started at five and it was going around to all my friends and family going, I've got to do this speech. I'm super nervous. And so they were all just pumping me up and I'm like, you'll just have to forgive me if

my voice goes wobbly or I get a bit emotional. Like, just, you know, just go. You know, we're all happy for you. and they knew already that the nerves were there. So we got up and I introduced Henry and he started off with a great little icebreaker. He was like, my dad's so special. I wish I could have been around for all his ups and downs.

But in the last 10 years, there's only been up. So which got everyone laughing and broke the ice and everyone just loved that he got up there and said anything really. And so they were all cheering him on because that sort of eased my nerves. because I was just listening to him, I was able to get up. It was so funny because we had a slide show of all the photos of our families and friends going on, and it was going on behind us. But weirdly, every time I mentioned someone, their photo would come up

if I mentioned Gary's parents or like brothers and stuff that the photos would come up. So it was like we had timed it. And so everyone was busy looking at the pictures and not necessarily like hearing my words, but not eyeballs on me, which I found to be really helpful. so I was able to get through it all and it just almost like I was in this kind of like flow state where you're not really observing yourself so much and lots of friends were video videoing me and had sent me the footage but one friend had just videoed Gary during the speeches and she's she's like he's so trying not to cry during this whole thing like just

keep it together but I got through it and it was great I mean I don't know if I delivered it perfectly polished, but I said the things that I wanted to say, and that was the goal for me. So I was super proud of myself, yeah. The goal was to say something meaningful to your husband. And if I'm remembering correct when we first met, and we did a sort of confidence ladder exercise, what's something very small towards the beginning of the scale, what's your level 100 most scary, terrifying thing? You list that birthday speech as your most terrifying thing.

Yeah. So you did it. You conquered your level 100 fear. It is like just another little piece of evidence to say that it's like working a muscle. Like it's one little rep that I've done that I could then, you know, build on that for the next time. Again, the win is that you got up there and did it because I didn't know today if you were going to tell me, you know, Sarah, I chickened out. I'm so sorry. I just wasn't feeling good or, well, there were other. people who wanted to speak so I didn't I didn't really need to do it but you actually did it you followed through it's true yes I'm so proud of you thank you so much and I think it was quite overwhelming for him as well and then my up then his brother just got up and did an impromptu speech

and his sister did one then my dad did one so it was a really beautiful series of moments that I think Henry and I started when we got up there and triggered a few memories in people and stuff so and we talked early on about one of my values in communicating with people is to bring people together in that sort of connection. And I'm pleased that that achieved that as well by bringing other people up there. That sounds so special. And how clever of your friend to be filming Carrie. Yes, his reactions. I know. I was so, I was so pleased because that I can watch a thousand times over. So yeah, it was it was good. And, you know, the thing is I knew I'd put the work in in terms of prepping myself and expecting the emotions and the anxiety to come up and not feeling

like, oh, you've done the work, you shouldn't feel anxious now, but understanding that that's still going to be there no matter what. Yeah. Yeah. Being mindful of reality. Nerves are a natural part of things that are going to come up and that's okay and we can coexist with them. Exactly.

Exactly. We can coexist with them. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love that story. Thank you for sharing that. And it's interesting that you forgot that that was even an issue. for you. So again, like I've said, I like to remind people of their wins because they're like,

oh yeah, I forgot that that even was on my radar. Yeah, I mean, you're right. You have taken you back to our first session where I had said that's something I want to do by the end of our time together to have the, not necessarily to deliver a polished speech, but to have the courage to at least get up there and try it. And yeah, it was my number one fear, which is the number one for you for most people, I suppose. But interesting that by the end of our time together, I'd forgotten that it was my number one for you. Yeah. I saw a huge transformation in you over the time that we worked together. What feels most different for you now from where you are to where you started? I think that really the biggest shift for me is don't view interactions as

It's my responsibility to control the way a conversation might go and what another person's perceptions of me is because of that conversation. Sort of handing over a lot more credibility to the people I'm communicating with to make it a two-way street, that they're interested in me just as much as I am in them. And I've learnt over the last few weeks that for me, the biggest part of communicating with someone is allowing them to learn a little bit more about me and connecting in a meaningful way. And to do that, I'm prepared to leave space for things to come out imperfectly because that creates a space for someone to ask a few more questions or dropping the need to have an idea

of what a perfect conversation is. Sunai, it has been great connecting with you again. and where can people find out more about you? I believe you have a substack idea percolating that will be coming out eventually. Tell me more about that. Look, it would be one of my dreams to start my own substack. I am a medical journalist and I have this idea to have a space where I can talk about and write about some of the studies and the interesting people I get to talk to,

but in a more sort of looser format, a bit more fun, a bit more space to really delve into some of the ideas that I wanted to in those stories but couldn't. So you write for doctors and you're thinking about writing something more for the general audience that we could understand. Yeah, exactly. And I think I want it to be a space where, I mean, because I have, I feel like I've got this great job and I'm so privileged to talk to so many great, interesting people who are doing amazing things in medicine and science.

and I'd love a space to bring that to everyone else and a bit less formal space where we can talk about some of those great ideas, those great minds and health and well-being. So I'm hoping to, well, I will do that next year. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you want to share or talk about? No, I think we covered a lot of the things that I felt were big wins and improvements for me. We talked a lot about, you know, things that were happening at work. We talked about things that were happening in my relationship, in my friendship group as well. You know, there were so many parts of my life that these little changes that I was making

that were going to affect. It's been fun and it's been really eye-opening and it's changed a lot of my relationships since working together. And I'm so glad that I did do it and I would say to myself a year ago, just be prepared to be a little bit uncomfortable and it's not going to be as hard as you think it's going to be. But the benefits that come from it, from whatever it is you want to work on yourself about, are a lot wider than, and broader than you think that they're going to be. Thank you again to Sunali. What an incredible woman. We had such a great time working together.

And if you are listening to this and realizing that you are ready to begin your own transformation story, book a free consultation with me today. This is the work I love doing most, helping you get out of your head and to start looking and feeling more confident in your communication. You don't need to overthink it. Just take the first step. The link to book a call is in the show notes. Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free conversation sheet sheet with simple formulas that you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you're in a meeting or just talking with friends. Download it at Sarah micotel.com slash blank no more.