Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - Food of the Italian Islands: Sicily, Sardinia, and Beyond

Episode Date: March 3, 2023

Get ready to be transported to the sun-soaked beaches, charming coastal villages, and rolling hillsides of Sicily, Sardinia, and beyond. Katie Parla is back and just published her third book: Food of the Italian Islands. Katie’s an American who has been living in Rome for about 20 years as a food and beverage writer, culinary guide, and cookbook author.We will be diving deep into the cultural and historical significance of the island’s regional cuisine, and tell you where to find Katie’s favorite food. Get ready to be inspired and hungry!Katie's other cookbooks:Tasting Rome: Fresh Flavors and Forgotten Recipes from an Ancient City: A CookbookFood of the Italian South: Recipes for Classic, Disappearing, and Lost Dishes: A Cookbooksarahmikutel.comDo you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

Welcome to Live Without Borders, a podcast about how to live the good life through stoicism, personal development, and cultural exploration. I'm your host, Sarah Megatel, an American in England who's here to help fellow citizens of the world like you make the most of the brief time you have here on Earth. It is time to make every moment matter. Get ready to be transported to the sun-soaked beaches, charming coastal villages, and rolling hillsides of Sicily, Sardinia, and beyond. Katie Parla is back third-time guest on this podcast, and she just published her third book, Food of the Italian Islands. I am so excited to you. We dive deep into this with her. Katie is an American who has been living in Rome for about 20 years as a food and beverage writer, and she's also a culinary guide, a cookbook author. So as I said, we will be diving deep into the cultural and historical significance of Italy's island regional cuisines. And Katie will tell you all about her favorite places to find certain. dishes, which you can also find in her new cookbook. Katie published her first two cookbooks through traditional publishers, and I think it's really cool that this time she decided that she wanted to set up her own shop. This latest one is coming out through Parla Publishing. The official

launch is in a few days, but if you pre-order, you'll be eligible for a free virtual cooking class with Katie. So sign up now. I'll include the link in the episode notes for this show. So consider this episode your taster of Katie's favorite things to eat. drink and do on the beautiful and diverse Italian islands, and then get your hands on her book, and you can try making all of these recipes yourself and learning about the islands even more. All right, on to the episode. Welcome, Katie. So nice to see you again.

Yeah, I'm excited to see you. It's been a minute. So I'm loving your new book, and it's all about the Italian islands. And when I think of Italian islands, I often think Sicily and Sardinia. So what are we talking about when we talk about the Italian islands? both of those, of course, they're gigantic. You can't and you should not avoid them, but there are many other islands. Some are just sort of like hanging out on their own. I'm thinking Pontilaria, which is technically part of Sicily, but much closer to Tunisia. There are island chains like the Neapolitan archipelago or the Pontine islands. Of course, you have all the little islands that sometimes are just lumps of sand in the Venetian lagoon. there are a lot of Italian islands. Even the islands have islands. So, like, Sicily's got a bunch of its own, Sardinia's got a bunch of its own. The country's literally teaming with them. I think one of the first islands that you visited, according to your latest book, was Capri, which is not Capri. And I was schooled in that the first time I went there as well, probably around the same age as you. Tell me about that experience.

It was part of my very first trip to Italy. I came to visit. it with my Latin class when I was a sophomore in high school, almost 100% of the trip was spent on a bus or in a gift shop. The guide was awful and didn't know anything, but it was still a very exciting moment. And we had like one kind of free day because we were supposed to all go to Copry launching from Sorrento, but it was terrible weather because it was off season. So most of my classmates stayed in the hotel to avoid seasickness. And I hopped on a boat with some of their classmates and we went to Capri. We took a little hike up to Anna Capri. And this was in March of 1996. It was empty. It was magical. And it was the last time I saw Capri that mellow. Yeah. I,

so I went when I was a teenager as well. And we stayed in Anna Capri because we were poor students. And it was just such another world for me. Like the women looked so. glamorous and we went into one shop and we were like we cannot afford anything here and they were smoking these very long cigarettes like in the shop next to all the clothes and we were like where are we what is this place a caprezi love us love a slim sig that's yeah so if we are there what would you suggest that we do and what food should be eating although i like copri i would suggest that you would get on a boat and go to iskia the neighboring island instead I love, don't get me wrong, I love all my Italian destinations, but some have been developed

specifically with Anglophone tourists in mind and Copry is one of those places. So I love Iskia because it's got real live Iskatani that lived there year round. It's big. It's agricultural. And it's like so many places, a volcano. I'm really into that. And authenticity is a pretty loaded word. But I think if you visit Copry,

and then contrast it with Iskia, there's a clear differentiation between the way that the places feel. Like people in Iskia are actually living and doing business and having their things in a way that is much more, you know, rooted year-round, not seasonal. And that's not to disparage the hardworking people of Capri by any stretch of imagination. It's just that I think the places are real different and you should probably consider Iski instead. That's a great suggestion. So thanks for bringing that up. All right, so we're in Iskia now. We're in Iskia, which is really cool.

It's full of delicious places to eat. Like so many islands, the signature dishes are not fish-based at all. It's a really vegetal and rabbit. Robert is not a word rabbit-forward cuisine. And there are a lot of legumes in the diet. It's absolutely spectacular. And, you know, there are a few places that most travelers go in Italy where I is generally like Rome, Florence, Venice, where you can actually just like go hike around.

You just go hike. You can hike up a literal dead or dying volcano, not officially dead because a lot of spas have been built around the like sulfur and hot mud. I don't know what they're called secretions. Is that an word to call it? Basically, the island's leaking and it makes really cool spas as a result. So it's got this kind of like well-being vibe to it, too, which I think is really, is really fun. Is there any particular spa or restaurant that you would recommend?

I mean, I love going to Nagombo, the spa. That's the very first one I ever went to. The Poseidon is really cool. I remember like back in the early aughts, I actually had to travel all over Iskia to update the rough guide. And half of the rough guide were like, the spas were geared towards German medical. tourism because the German government would hook up people with like arthritis with visits to ischia. And so they weren't glamorous places. They were very functional. But I was like, this is the weirdest thing that's ever happened in my, that point in my journeys. Very clinical

spas in the inland. But the coastal ones are amazing. And I love eating at Stalino. The easiest way to get there is to take a little commuter boat because if you're trying to drive in, you might not be able to drive out. It's at the base of a very, very steep ravine. And Stalino is epic and delicious. And that's where I love to go for impepa di Colce, which is basically like sauteed muscles, like barely cooked with a lot of black pepper. I love their rabbit, which has been braised until super tender. Their vegetable dishes are great. That's one of my death row meal spots for sure. It sounds like another island that you prefer over Capri is Prochita. See, Prochita is great. Oh my God. Have you been there?

No, and to be honest, I don't think I've ever heard of it until I read it in your book. So tell us more about that. Oh, cool. Okay, so it's, it feels like a gritty part of Naples has broken off of the mainland and drifted into the sea. It's filled with backfiring scooters and like screaming grannies. And it's got so much. much energy. And it's where most Neapolitans go to the beach, right? Some do dip in the Bay of Naples just off Lungomare, but it's easy enough and it's cheaper for residents. You get like a big discount at the ticket office and you get on this boat and you're in Prochida and you could walk to the beach, walk to many beaches, have a delicious meal and then be home well before dark. So it's got all of this energy. It's also volcanic. It's much smaller than Iskia. And you

can certainly get around on foot. There are tons of cool places to stay, lots of awesome places to eat. I just, I love that. And, you know, coming from Rome, it's actually quicker for me to get to Prochita, which is in the Bay of Naples, in Campania, a different region than it is for me to get to Ponza, which is in this region. It's just like you hop on a train and an hour you're there, you get to the port, and then you get a fast boat and you're at the beach in no time.

It's pretty cool. So you take the train to Naples and then take the boat. Mm-hmm. Okay. Exactly. As soon as you said it was like the island of like version of Naples, I was like sold like on there. I will always have a fondess in my heart going back to that time when I was in Capri when I was in school. I was traveling on Italy with a friend of mine and we kept buying like train and bus tickets everywhere we went. And finally when we got to Naples, we couldn't find like to the place to buy the ticket. And we were like, you know what? We're not going to do this. Nobody else is buying tickets. It's just us. So we get on the bus. And of course, this is the one. one time, the controllory, is that how you say? I forget how you say. Come on the bus and to check people's tickets. And we looked like kids. We looked very young. And we were like obviously panicked. And the little old people from Naples could see that we were in trouble. And they formed a

circle around us so that the officers couldn't get to us. And then they pushed open the bus door so we could get out. And then two of them walked us to the train station where we needed to go. And we were like, ever since then, I was like, thank you people of Naples. You're so kind. They're the nicest. I love that city. It's the best. All right. So Naples and then Prochita. And then Sicily, obviously, is a huge island. And you actually dedicated your book to your Sicilian ancestors and actually visited your ancestral home. Tell me a little bit more about that. So half of my family is Sicilian. And I've been visiting one of the cities, Palermo, for a really long. long time, going back almost 25 years now. And that's a place where I just, it's 45 minutes flight from Rome. It's so easy to get to. And you can just like, you know, drop in for 36 hours. It's like Naples has a lot of energy, a lot of grit. It's filled with fried food. Like, honestly,

what's not to like? The other ancestral village is called Villa Rosa, which is in the geographical center of town, of the island, a bit remote. but not far from N, though, which is a big hub, but really desolate. I mean, I don't think that there are many people left in the old town. Now they're like 1960s developments around the old city, but it's a place where you can imagine why my great-grandmother never talked about it. Very economically depressed, not a lot of agricultural development around the place. Certainly a spot where you can envision 130 years ago,

people were itching to get out. And they did. Yeah. And what about your Palermo side? Have you explored a lot of that area? Yeah. So I know the neighborhood where my great grandfather was born and where he would have set sail for America in 1890. Well, he was born in 1890. He left in 1906. It's called La Cala. And it's this horseshoe-shaped natural harbor that has been the Palermo Harbor for three millennia. It's definitely a different place than my great-grandfather would have known because of the Second World War bombings. But when you walk in the back streets, you get this very dense, claustrophobic feel that really must have been what it felt like in the turn of the 20th century, although with many, many more people. Like back in the day, you would have a dozen people living in a small apartment. Now you've got Airbnbs and hotels and maybe two people living in like a four-bedroom.

So it's a changed place for sure. But the exposed stone walls and the sort of urban fabric, that dense urban fabric, has been retained in parts. And what are some foods that they would have been eating back then that are still around that are popular? There's so many street foods in Palermo that have developed to feed people on the fly cheaply. So let's start with the most extreme first. Stigiole. Stigiole is like little bits of butchery trimmings that have been simmered in lard until as tender as you can get cartilage, and then chopped up and carried through the markets in a basket. And then today you'll find a loaf of bread will be cut open and then a fistful of the stigiole.

Sorry, I'm talking about a totally different dish stigiole is intestines. It's also extreme. And so the fritularo is this dude that goes around with the back. basket, puts his fist in, frequently not gloved, but that's fine. We don't necessarily need to enforce hygiene laws everywhere. We'll put a fistful of the fritola, the chopped up cartilogy bits, and a little spritzal lemon, a little salt, and then you'll eat that. And it's very, very, very, very much part of this, like, oful, poor cut tradition in Naples, in Palermo. So Stigula is intestines that have been sort of braided or sometimes they're just like zigzagged on a skewer and then grilled,

they pop and it's a little chewy, it's a little tender, it's chopped up and you can just serve it on a board with a little bit of lemon and salt. So like they're not getting too creative with the condiment and it's great. What I find is kind of like the gateway ophal in the Palermo category is Panico Mayo saw, which is lung and spleen because it looks like a cheese steak kind of. Like it truly could pass for a cheese steak unless you like really give a deep inhale and you're like, that's probably not just steak. And it's it's got like a kind of chewy steakums quality to it. And there's such a huge demand for spleen in Palermo that it is challenging to find spleen in other parts of Italy. A lot of it get shipped down in the same way

that we get a lot of the intestines in Rome. But if let's say you're like, I don't do that. Let's say you are a gluten-free vegan person, then there are panellet for you. And those are chickpea fritters. Basically, really simple chickpeed dough is cooked, allowed to set, and then cut into squares or rectangles and deep fried. And that's an amazing Palermo treat. It's called panella.

And if you're really going hard in the paint for the carbs, you have to be a lot of, you have, it with potato croquettes on a bun, which for sure pushes it out of the gluten-free category, but it's still vegan. Triple carb. Well, I love that yearbook is all about carb positivity. That's true. I'm trying to make it a thing, but the hashtag hasn't taken off yet. I'll start sharing it for you.

Thank you. So pasta alla norma, is that Sicilian as well? Yeah. It's something that comes from the eastern part of the island. And it's probably the Sicilian podcast. pasta export that's had the most reach beyond the island. You can find it in lots of like Italian restaurants in the U.S. and in other parts of Europe where Italian regional cuisine tends to be flattened

into a single Italian cuisine. And it's fried eggplant that's been tossed in a tomato sauce with some ricotta salata and pasta. And it's a great summer dish. It's really, really nice. The tomato keeps it light and tangy in spite of the. presence of those very sponge-like cubes of eggplant. So, so good. Can you talk a little bit about how Italy and Sicily's occupation affected the foods and the food culture of the island? Yeah, I mean, this is true of every part of Italy, every part of the world.

The traces of either migration or conquest that have passed through places are visible in, the culture, the language, the architecture, and of course, the food. And so in, this is, this is always something that now 20 years in Italy still, like, surprises me. People often associate themselves not with their, even just exclusively their region. They'll be like, oh, I'm a Samnite. And you're like, oh, you're a pre-Roman tribal member? Or I'm, you know, like, I'm, I'm from the Greek side of the island. And I'm like, the Greeks were here 27 centuries ago, but okay, there's this identity that goes along with people who have been there in established civilization. So when you're in Sicily or Sardinia for that matter, you see the presence of Greeks and Romans in the grape and olive varieties. You see the very significant Arabic cultural influence in the way that people grow things, the style of irrigation that allows things that the Arabian.

Arabic cultures introduced, lots of almonds and pistachios. This is also the moment, of course, when eggplant and many, many types of produce are introduced to Italy in a major way for the first time. And then fast forward to the 16th century after the Spaniards start to do their exploration to use a euphemism in the Americas. They import botanical species, and a lot of those are used in ornamental ways like tomatoes and then later transition into food. Others are used only in part like prickly pears. The cactus pads are generally totally ignored in favor of the prickly pair. And then this is also when different types of beans join the already present legumes, potatoes, peppers, all sorts of squash. And now we're in the 21st century. And so we have also influence from other parts of Italy.

And you can find like Roman-style pizzerias and like places that specialize in Calabrian food, which I think still kind of feels in a way a bit international, exotic, if you will, because it really is so distinct from the local regional cuisines of Sicily. Yeah, I didn't realize or I had forgotten that in Venice in that area, Palenta was much more popular than pasta. Oh, yeah. I mean, polenta was part. of the Veneto, so the entire region of the Veneto, some parts of Le Marque, Lombardy, cuisine in such an

aggressive, monoculturistic way, it dominated the diets of peasants and caused extreme nutritional imbalance. One of the features of the Spanish exploitation of the Americas was an arrogance about how to treat foods and indigenous practices. And so when the Spanish start importing corn to southern Italy, and then it gets absorbed in the north where it thrives, they're like, ah, these indigenous people can't know anything about food. So they ignored the very important process of extamilization, which transforms the corn into something that your body can absorb nutrients from.

In the absence of a nextamilization process, the corn consumption actually depletes B vitamins, causing at first leprosy-like symptoms, then listless wandering, dementia. And the number of people who suffered from essentially a polenta overdose in the Veneto was so considerable. And it was a custom that went on for hundreds of years before being identified in the early 20th century. And then not really fully eradicated into. the mid-20th century. Wow, that's shocking.

And I did hear you talk about this on your podcast, Gola, which everybody should be listening to. Yeah, we do a whole Pelagra-themed podcast. Pelagra is the illness caused by excessive polenta consumption. But when you go to Venice today, there are lots of places that are actually diverging from tradition because they're serving their chiquetti, these little kind of bar snacks, on pieces of bread instead of on little sliver. of polenta. Polenta would have been the standard. Wheat flour wasn't that common here.

There was some bread production, but very little. And generally flame-based industries were a bit terrifying to Venetians, one of the reasons that they sort of excommunicated the glassmakers to an island off the north, a set of islands really called Murano. So when you're in the Veneta or Venice, look for the Chiquetti places that are working with the polenta and they're doing the old school methods. What's your favorite? I mean, I really, really actually like a, my favorite's Alarko, which does Crostini. But I also really like Sepa, which is near the Rialto Bridge. They just do like super old school stuff. No frills. It's just like you're clearly eating a little baby cuddly fish that has been spiked with a toothpick sitting on a bed of polenta. They do really nice, like, marinated

shrimp dishes and sardine dishes. So it's a little bit of. It's a bit of. It's a bit of. It's just like, It's like super cheap and just, it's in the middle of a huge tourist district, but it's completely hidden. It's really cute. Do you still live in Rome? I still live in Rome, yes. But it sounds like you're spending a lot more time in the Venice area. Yeah, I'm in Venice most weekends. My boyfriend is a master glass blower.

And we actually have a glassware collection collab for the food of the Italian islands launch, which has been really fun. He just looked at the colors of the book. We like mixed a bunch of glass frit, which is just like, mashed up glass pieces. And he and his team blew a bunch of glasses and bowls for the, for the launch of the book. That is so cool. Can people visit his studio? Yeah, the place is called Wave. And it's a super young studio. It's one that also don't get used to this because you won't find it elsewhere. Also engages women in the glass production. And so he has a young team that makes glass to order for different designers. They do custom pieces.

for all sorts of businesses. They do the classic Gatto-style cups, which is what the glass collection is. They run experiences. So, like, you can spend a morning blowing your own glass piece. You design it at the beginning of the class and then blow it, and then it cools overnight, and they send it to you. And they're also tours.

It's all able to be booked on the Wave Morano glass site. But, yeah, it's super fun. I did blow glass once, and it didn't turn out great. So I was like, you know what? I'm going to stick to writing. Yeah, that sounds great. And you have a boat. that you named Laura. I'm curious about that name. And also, where are you riding around in that area?

It is bad luck to change a boat's name. So I inherited Laura. My friend, Alley, had a boat named after his mom, who I often see in her gigantic boat in the lagoon. And so I wave at human Laura from my little boat, Lauer. So, you know, I really deeply feel that one of the best ways to get into a culture is to understand, like, the vehicle culture. So like if you're in Rome and you haven't done the scooter thing, you're not really, you can't get in the Roman mindset without that. In the same way, you can't be in the Venetian culture without having a boat be part of it. So I bought the cheapest, dumbest boat in the whole lagoon. And I keep it down, down the canal from my boyfriend's apart. I pay a guy 100 euros cash a year to keep it. It feels like the best deal on the planet. And

I take it all over the place. In the summer, we'll take it to the edge of the Adriatic and go swimming. In the fall, we'll go head out to Santa Rosmo, the farm island, and hang out there. Year round, we'll go into Venice because the, you know, Murano is just 10 minutes boat ride, 8 if I'm driving Laura from Venice and the canals are really, really narrow. So there's some canals that you just can't get into unless you have a tiny, tiny boat. Did you boat before you got Laura? So I've been going to Ponza, which is off the coast of Lazio for a long time. And there aren't that many beaches there. So as long as I've been going to Ponza, which is like almost 20 years now, I've been renting boats and you don't need a license. You just need like either cash or a credit card. It's actually

shocking how much you're allowed to do with no training whatsoever. So I'm not the most adept like skipper per se or captain. I don't even know the terminology as you can see, but but it's pretty it's pretty easy so far. It's a it's a like low skill level. Yeah. Well, you're expanding my mind because I like the concept of transport as getting to know a culture. And I'm like, wow, this sounds so brave. How would I think? out how to ride to drive a boat. But now I want to do that. Baby steps. But yeah, when I lived in Italy and I've lived in Italy on and off, you know, over time, I always took a bus because I didn't have a car there and I never drove a scooter. And I definitely noticed that the people on the bus were

either immigrants such as myself or like children going to school or elderly people who no longer wanted to drive. And I was like, hmm, yeah, if I were going to live in Italy long term, I guess it would be helpful, depending on where I lived, to figure out how to drive. Totally. Totally. Some places, it's absolutely a necessity. In the summer in Venice, you know, if I'm here on a weekend and I need to do anything, I can't depend on public transport because the boats are too full to let any people on.

And I don't have five hours to kill. What do you? What do you and your boyfriend do you have on an average weekend if you're not working up there? We do a lot of cooking. He obviously loves fire or he wouldn't be in the glass business. So we've got a barbecue. I have an uni pizza oven. And so we grill. We grill and we bake and watch lots of movies. I'm like kind of on a Gerard Butler kick for some reason. I just need, you know, it's really busy to put a book out, right? And I'm doing it myself. So I just need like candy. Yeah. And so yeah. So I would say maybe the Gerard Butler kick. has been going longer than the book's been going. But in any event, we watch lots of, like, mediocre action movies. That's the whole vibe. Between meals. Yeah, I read that you embraced the multi-course Italian daily lifestyle. What does that look like for you? It depends on where I am, right? Because in Venice, everyone wants to do a parativo first. So you have, like, drinks and snacks,

but like multiple drinks because they drink a lot in Venice. And then you got your primo, which could be polenta or risotto or pasta. And then you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, main, it could be fish or meat, and then vegetables. And dessert tends to be kind of less of a thing for me personally. I'm more of like a fruit for dessert type of person. But if I was having someone over for a meal, like you got to serve something more than just like a big bowl of citrus. Yeah. Or you assign them to bring the pastry. Yeah. So you said in your book that the first place you would recommend people head to is Sardinia or Sardania as the Italian. and say, why should that be number one on people's list?

Well, kind of betraying my Sicilian roots, I think Sardinia is the coolest place on earth. It's super wild. And because it's treated by most visitors, including or maybe especially mainland Italy dwellers, as like a beach destination, you can find a lot of information about the certain resort areas. But in terms of like the other amazing and vast parts of the island, There's not a lot published. So it's a place you can actually have an adventure.

You don't have to follow the like guidebook recommendations. It's a super safe place to travel unless you're a lamb, in which case someone will eat you. That's very dangerous. Biggest risk. The, yeah, like the rural, wild feel of that island, I think is just so unique and special. And I do, of course, love the other islands. I love Sicily deeply. if you've got a week and you just want to like explore and be surrounded by people who are doing

their crafts and making their food and going to work and just having this like beautiful island life. I think Sardinia is a special place for that. Let's say we didn't have a week. What crafts should we try to see? Like what areas would you recommend? What food specifically should we try? Oh my God. I mean, first of all, you're, you got to clear some space in your tummy if you're just there for a week and want to try it all.

I like to land in Kal Yeti and get settled. The great fish market is there, so I love to just buy like a bunch of raw fish in the morning and to kind of eat through the market. You should definitely stay overnight in Kaliadi because it's a really cute, awesome town. And then head out to Assamini where Volta Ussai makes ceramic, generally bowls. He got started or the family got started making bowls, either bowls for mixing dough for bread, which has a certain shape or it's called a shivaida or the friguera is for making fragula, which is the kind of pearl cuss-cous like pasta. And he makes everything by hand.

It's super cool. He's now got like more modern pieces, but I love going and purchasing those any ships internationally. Then I'd head up to the Pizzolist copper, family copper. It's not a factory. It's a small room where like father and son make copper pots. I would buy lots of copper there. They can do custom things. They have the kind of like traditional Sardinian, very shallow, almost bowl-like copper pots that you put one on top of the other.

Those are awesome. And then literally anywhere you go, you can find someone in every village makes knives. But like patada or Santa Lu Sourju, like these are places that have their own knife tradition, their own knife shape. So I would definitely do like the knife tour. And there's a section in the book. I think it's got a silly title like, like I'm a knife lady or something because I truly am obsessed with sardinian knives.

And then I'd head over to the east and explore the coast all the way up to the barbages subregion and Nooro, Oliena, these like incredible places, stopping along the way at whatever like costume or food or bread museum I could find.

A lot of these villages have museums dedicated needed to like the textiles of that village or the basket weaving of that village. Villages were pretty highly specialized in specific crafts, which allowed them to trade and have communication with the surroundings. All the while, I would be eating as much pasta as possible. I'd be looking for cooler Jonas, which are little potato and cheese parcels that have been pinched together. So the closure looks like an ear of grain. I would go to the barbaja for Sufilindeo, which is like hand-poles. noodles and strata that's broken into a mutton broth with cheese. I would eat Loredigitas,

which are these twisty pastas made with a rooster ragu. All of the shapes that I've just mentioned, by the way, are in food of the Italian islands with QR codes to videos that show how to do them, because they look super crazy and hard when you see them. Sufilindeu is legit hard and like people need to train for years in order to perfect it. I'm not exaggerating, but the other ones you can do with just a tiny bit of practice and a video. Okay. Well, yeah, it sounds like there's tons of stuff for us to do the entire time we're there. And you had mentioned before how most regions of Italy, yeah, they are like, they go back in their history.

And I'm like, oh, yes, I'm from the Greeks who were here in 2000. And it sounds like the people in Sardinia are like that above all. Totally. There's a deep pride. But more than that, there's also an activism. against occupation. And when you travel through the island, you'll see graffiti from like the,

it's not quite as active now, but there was a big anti-military base movement. It's still present, but it was really, really at its peak decades ago. And now there's still the graffiti that's basically like, get out of here, military bases. You'll see, you'll see graffiti,

like against the Italian state existing or like conquering. And there's definitely, because of the Narajic culture, the Narrage buildings are these stone buildings that you see all over the island, but the pre-Roman, pre-Greek, pre-Carthaginian, neuradic culture is really, is really strong, I think, in people's DNA. And people associate that with like the sort of original Sardinian, which has now been conquered most recently by the Italians to many people's dismay. Interesting. Yeah, I remember when I first went, well, I've only been gone there. there once. And it sounds like this is kind of common for the islands, but I just would have assumed they were eating seafood the entire time. And I think you mentioned no people went more

inland because of all the conquests. So they were eating. They weren't eating that much seafood until more recently. Yeah, I mean, even coastal people had a pretty limited supply of seafood. Fishing is super dangerous. The sea around Sardinia is very dangerous. The things that were easy to catch or farm like black mullet, sorry, gray mullet or eels. There are a lot of lagoons in Sardinia, but like tuna fishing, which might be super, super focused and concentrated in the southwestern part of the island is it was a luxury good to have tuna. And it was a very dangerous hunt. And so it's only today with more modern fishing techniques and above all, trawlers and all sorts of fish that's, fishing methods that exploit the sea, that we have this huge availability.

Also something that we didn't have in Italy until the 50s in a major way, refrigeration and a lot of ice. So refrigeration was limited with the post-war industrial boom. People started to get fridges. This coincides with a greater wealth and fish trade all over the Mediterranean. And now when you go to the San Benedetto fish market, you see fish from the seas around Sardinia, and then beyond, far beyond.

There are things from France and Africa and even the U.S. Yeah. So the world is becoming more global, but I think there are still some traditions hanging on in the islands, whether it's making pasta for certain holidays. What are some that stand out to you or that you really like? I mean, Sufilindeu is the one that stands out to me the most because it is so challenging to make.

And imagine pulling Durham wheat into really, fine strands over a round basket and then doing that for two more layers, drying it all to just break it into a soup. Like that type of meditative, devotional practice, which would have been done to celebrate the holidays around San Francisco is just, it's so emblematic, even though it's unique to just a small area around Lula and Nooro, it's so emblematic of the reverence that Sardinians have traditionally had for grain-based products. Bread and pasta dough would be like contorted into the most improbable shapes.

And what's so striking about it, if you've ever, you know, worked with Durham wheat pasta dough, especially in the mainland or even Sicily, you're told, like, it doesn't stretch. It just like, you make little nubs. You make orichete and cavitalia and like, that's all it can do. But if you like overwork it, you stress the gluten, it starts to, it starts to, it starts to pull and stretch and have like an extensibility that we're always told in the baking and pasta world like it can't have. So there's so much magic to that. I mean, it's not actually magic. It is, it's gluten. It's a really great example of like the labor and devotion to grain-based things

that you find as a theme throughout the Sardinian island. It's really exceptional. And there's this myth that like two people make it and you can only get it one day of the year, that hasn't been true for a long time. There are a lot of Sardinians all over the island who are championing these lost and disappearing dishes. And so you can find people all over who are even teaching lessons because they want the, they want the Sufilandayu and other intricate pasta shapes to survive. And you can only have them survive through teaching other people and sharing that. Can we do a little lightning round of a few recipes of like where you have had these out that you would recommend? See.

Okay. And I guess some of this might be a street vendor, but Ponelle, the chickpea fritters. Oh, you got to go to the Ballaro market and there's a big piazza where dudes are like fanning flames for their Stigula intestine roasting. And right there, there are a bunch of Pinellae vendors. but you might recognize the Pinelli vendor in the middle of the square from the photo in the book. Okay. He also does fried, whole fried eggplants. And this is Palermo.

Yeah. Pasta a la Norma. I mean, this is something I wrote about as having been served to me by my stepmom's former boss. This isn't something I usually order when I go out, but I order it. I order it. I eat it at friends' houses. Okay. But let me think, oh, there is one place.

I've had a really nice version of it. And that's at Cave Ocks on the northern slopes of Mount Etna. Okay. Parmigiana di Melanzani. Oh, my God. Every place in the summer. My friend Tomazzo's mom, Raphaelina, makes a really good one. She's also the inspiration for Nopolis la Parmigana, the cactus pad Parmigana in the book.

Okay. Yeah. My friend Alessandra makes, her mom makes a great one who lives in Rome. So I'm like, where can people like buy this? But can you talk a little bit about how eggplant parm in Italy is so different from in America? Yeah. So eggplant parm in Italy tends to be very thinly sliced eggplant that's been salted to draw out the water and then fried, sometimes floured, sometimes not floured, but rarely breaded with any thick breading. I grew up in New Jersey eating thick slices of eggplant parm with thick layers.

of breading around that. And that's not a thing that you find in, in Italy, really. So it also tends to be like not a hundred inches thick. It's like a few layers, a little bit of tomato sauce and cheese, basil, and that's it. And yeah, what's cool is that you can get eggplant parm at every single roasty churia in every single town in the summer. So whether you're in like chef-a-loo, Maramo, God forbid, Tarmina, Syracusa, like all the places people go, the little roasted chidia takeaway joints are going to have aluminum containers of eggplant parm that you can try. You just mentioned Syracusa, and there's a salad that my mom and I had there that I still think about a lot.

And it's not something, I don't know how we even ordered this because it's not something that, like, looking at it, I thought, would think was good. It was blood orange, tomatoes, some fennel. I saw you had a recipe that had a lot of citrus in it, but it wasn't quite that. I'm like, what was this? Where were we? Like, I have not been able to recreate it myself to like how I remember it. The classic Sicilian salad is blood orange and fennel.

My version in the book is blood orange, different types of citrus, mixed citrus with pistachios. But, I mean, I would just say, like, keep. Keep trying. Try a lot of different citrus mixed together. Use lemon juice and olive oil. Find some cool heirloom tomatoes that have like a structure that can stand up to the acid. Keep at it. Yeah. Maybe I didn't try it in the right season. Where, I can't remember where you said in the book was the caramelized onion-filled puff pastry. Where is that? Katanya. Okay. Oh my God. I mean, Katanya's pastry shop. are filled with them. Walking down like the main artery towards the Duomo Square, you'll

encounter many, many, many spots for the, just look for the ones that are still steaming when they're coming out of the oven. Okay. And then you mentioned in Sardinia, the potato dumplings. Yeah, Kuro Jonas. I mean, it's a, it's something that used to be super, super regional. Now you can find it all over the place. So one of my favorites is actually a little bit non-traditional. It's at Ovile Bertorelli, which is above tortulli in the mountains. And they do a very cheesy one. Most of them are like a lot of potato, some cheese, some garlic. The Ovele Bertarelli version is like a lot of cheese tomato, a little bit of garlic. That sounds amazing. So it's really good. The recipe for that version is in the book. And the ones in Noirte are nice because they're just very simple

potato filling with the garlic and the herbs and cheese, tossed with butter and a little bit of orange zest. So it's a little bit of a more modern approach to it, but the chef there is internationally trained and is, you know, not pushing things into a molecular space with that, but is kind of pushing tradition by serving it with the sauce that you wouldn't find in super traditional trattoria. Do you have a preference either way, whether somebody is trying to be more modern or you prefer traditional dishes or do you like it all? I mean, I like it all. What's important to me is that the ingredients are really good and the execution is proper.

So you can be in the most traditional place on the planet. But if you're pinching the cordogonis and the seam is like basically raw when the rest of it is cooked, like, if you've been making them for 80 years, that shouldn't be happening. Like, no offense. So your book has a ton of great recipes. And I think are you, did you publish this one through your own publishing house? Yeah, I founded Parla Publishing in 2022 and then printed the book in Italy. It was bound in Italy and then just recently landed on American Shores where it will be distributed from a warehouse in New York. The book is excellent. It's so funny and clever and great recipes.

So where can people buy it and find out more about you? It's available at shop.kateeparla.com. You can visit my website, katieparla.com. for general info. And the book is available in independent bookshops like now serving LA, booklarder in Seattle, Bold Fork in D.C., Kitchen Arts and Letters in New York, Omnivore in San Francisco, and many, many more. Awesome. Well, thank you very much, Katie. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Ciao. That's all for now. Go ahead and follow the show or hit subscribe so you can hear more

episodes like this. And if you would like my help taking bold action on your own dream, like living abroad, changing careers, and other life transitions, visit Live Without Borders Podcast.com. Thanks for listening and have a beautiful week wherever you are. Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free conversation sheet sheet with simple formulas that you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you're in a meeting or just talking with friends. Download it at sarahigatel.com slash blank no more.