Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - LGBT Travel: Resources, Trends, and the Hottest Destinations (Special Focus on Lesbian Travel)

Episode Date: September 22, 2018

LoAnn Halden, Vice President of Communications at IGLTA, the International Gay & Lesbian Travel Association, joins me to talk about the history of LGBT travel, current trends, the best resources for planning a trip, for checking the safety of a destination, the hottest places to visit right now, and more. (See photos and links at postcardacademy.co)   Later in the show, I chat with travel bloggers and Instagram influencers Roxanne Weijer and Maartje Hensen about what it’s like traveling the world full time as a lesbian couple.    By listener request, I’m putting a special emphasis on lesbian travel because that community hasn’t had nearly as much attention or travel resources dedicated to it compared to what gay travelers have access to.     I’m your host, Sarah Mikutel. Ready to travel? Sign up for my newsletter and get your free guide to cheap airfare.    Thank you so much for listening to this show. I know you’re busy and have many listening options, so it means a lot to me that you’re here. You are the best.   This podcast is brought to you by Audible. Not a member yet? Postcard Academy listeners can get a FREE audiobook and a 30-day free trial if you sign up via audibletrial.com/postcard   This podcast is also brought to you by World Nomads. Need simple and flexible travel insurance? Get a cost estimate from World Nomads using their handy calculator at postcardacademy.co/insurance  Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

Welcome to the Postcard Academy. I'm your host, Sarah Megatel, and I want to thank you so much for choosing to dedicate some of your very valuable time to listening to this podcast and to subscribing to this show. You are the best. Today, we will be talking all about LGBT travel, and by listener request, I'm putting a special emphasis on lesbian travel, because that community hasn't had nearly as much attention or travel resources dedicated to it compared to what gay travelers have access to. I'll be talking to Loanne Halden, Vice President of Communications at IGLTA, that's the International Gay and Lesbian Travel Association. And we'll be covering the history of LGBT travel, current trends, the best resources for planning a trip, for checking the safety of a destination, the hottest places to visit right now, and more. Later in the show, I will be chatting with travel bloggers and Instagram influencers Roxanne and Marcia from Once Upon a Journey. And we'll be talking about what it's like traveling the world full-time as a lesbian couple. But first, this podcast is brought to you by Audible. Not a member yet.

Postcard Academy listeners can get a free audiobook and a 30-day free trial if you sign up via the link, audible trial.com slash postcard. Now on to my conversation with Loanne from IGLTA. Welcome to the podcast, Loanne. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Sarah. So you work for the International Gay and Lesbian Travel Association, which is IGLTA. What are you doing there?

And why did this organization get started? I am vice president of communications for IGLTA. And it actually started back in 1983, so certainly pre-Internet. And it was about a way for gay guesthouse owners and travel agents to connect their clients. with safe and welcoming vacation destinations. And it's pretty incredible that this small group of business owners started this organization in South Florida, but dubbed it international,

because now we really have followed through on that, and the organization has members in more than 80 countries that do business in more than 100, and still, of course, all very much committed to providing safe and welcoming travel experiences for LGBT people. So how would you define LGBT travel? Are we talking about gay-friendly businesses or LGBT-owned businesses or everything? For us, it's a combination of both.

If you go to the website, IGLTA.org, we actually have tags on businesses that are LGBTQ-owned. So if you're looking specifically for that, you're able to find it. But for our purposes, we're talking about all businesses that are providing LGBT-Ean. welcoming travel experiences. Okay, great. Could we talk about the history of LGBT travel? What was going on before IGLTA? Could you walk me through some milestones? Well, actually, there was quite a lot happening. I think most significantly, the Stonewall riots in 1969 in New York happened, which really gave birth to the global gay rights movement, not only pride in New York, but after that there were pride marches that popped up worldwide.

What exactly were the Stonewall riots for people who might not know? The Stonewall riots took place at the Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village in New York City. And it was basically the result of police raids on the gay community. Because, of course, you're talking about a time when it was illegal to be gay. And there were violent crackdowns on the community happening in spaces where they would gather. And so rather than being victims, the Stonewall Riots occurred when the community actually decided to fight back against the police. And it was the first large visible moment when our community stood up for itself. And from that, it really moved forward the entire gay rights movement.

How did they fight back? Well, with high heels and beer bodholes on the spot. Okay. So on the spot, like actually in the bar, then they refused to just go quietly. Is that what you're saying? They refused to go quietly. Absolutely. I mean, it was a physical pushback against the police.

And so how did the Stonewall Rights in 1969 lead to pride-themed tourism? Well, there was certainly a process there. It wasn't that one happened overnight. And then there was a tourism movement. What happened in the beginning was that because this was born from an activist movement and a human rights movement, you saw marches taking place around the world where people were standing up for visibility for our community. And then over time, they evolved to become more celebrations and as equality increased and acceptance for the LGBT community grew, then you started seeing more parades and festivals. And then with time, that became a tourism point of interest

because then people started traveling around the world to attend different pride parades because it's a great way to experience a destination and at the same time be completely immersed in the community there. What are some other LGBT travel milestones? Well, in the early 70s, Hans Evanston started a travel. company that did gay group tours for men. And he's sort of considered the father of gay travel because these were organized group trips. And of course now there's a number of tour operators

around the world that do LGBT exclusive group travel. And he's no longer with us, but the company is still in operation. And now have they expanded to include lesbian travel as well? They do have lesbian travel offerings, but there are now also a number of companies that focus on lesbian travel specifically. But it wasn't until 1990 that Olivia Travel was founded. And of course, they're best known for their cruises, but they've evolved over time to include land-based offerings for women as well. Yeah, historically, travel companies have definitely catered more to gay men than to lesbians. Why do you think that is? Well, I think the movement in the beginning was focused so much more on the gay male community. I think that women traditionally

have flown under the radar. Even if you look at anti-gay laws around the world, there's more that are specific to male-on-male relationships than to lesbian relationships. It's almost as if we're just non-existent as women, which you certainly see in other cultures. Right. Since there aren't as many resources out there for lesbian solar travelers and couples, I would love to talk some more about how lesbians can plan their holidays better. So could you talk to me maybe about some trip planning strategies, either for a single person or a couple that wants to research possible destinations? Well, it would be impossible for me to start without doing a shameless plug for IGLTA.

Because if you do go to IGLTA.org and one of the tabs at the top is a plan your trip feature. And so you can go through and pick destinations where you want to go and then see the businesses there that are LGBT welcoming. And that's a way to find some of our lesbian-owned businesses. We have some great companies that are doing everything from safaris in Africa to New Zealand travel to weddings in Iceland. So it's a great resource there. I'm also a big advocate of lesbian travel blogs. I think that's a good way to get on the ground information from a current perspective. What are some of your favorites?

Well, I love dokes on the road. I'm a big fan of Meg Kale who runs that blog with her wife, Lindsay. And she's been really active in the travel space and is on the road all the time. They're based in Mexico now. And I also really like Globetrotter Girls. Actually, it's now one Globetrotter Girl instead of two because they were a couple originally. Oh, no. I know.

But it's still under the name Globetrotter Girls. And Danny is also talking about global travel experiences. Okay, fantastic. So on the IGLTA website, are you also talking about safety around the world? Well, we're actually in the process of developing a new website that should launch before the end of the year. And with it will come country guides that will feature some discussions about that. In the interim, there are a couple of resources. that are really good for checking out safety.

One is ILGA, which is often confused with IGLTA, but it's ILGA.org. And that organization specifically looks at the laws around the world, and they have detailed maps that show country by country, the situation for LGBT people. They're very detailed, and so they can be a little cumbersome to digest. Another resource was actually developed more recently by P-Flagg in Canada, and it's called Destination Pride, and I think that's actually a good resource. And then for the U.S. as well, the State Department actually has LGBT resources for citizens online.

And as IGLTA, one of the things that we try to be careful about is how we actually define safe and telling people, you know, where to go or where not to go. We as an organization don't ever condone boycotts. And what I will say about that is travel is an incredibly personal experience. So for some people, they would look at these resources and say, okay, the laws of this country are terrible for gay people. So I'm absolutely not going to travel there. And then you might have someone else say, you know what? I'm not going to let my sexual orientation stop me from going anywhere, and I really want to see, say, for example, the pyramids in Egypt, so I'm going to go.

So what we just say is it's really important to do your homework and be aware of the laws and the cultures of the countries that you're visiting in advance. What are some concerns that lesbian travelers might have, and what could they do to enhance their safety wherever they go? Well, I think the thing that is confusing for a lot of people about lesbian travel is that so often lesbians identify as women first. And so I think the concerns for lesbian travelers are often really the same as concerns for women travelers, particularly solo travelers. You know, it's really just about, am I going to be safe moving through the space? And then beyond that, I think you get into issues of, okay, if I'm making a reservation and with my partner and I want to, you know, I want a room with one bed, how is that going to be perceived in the destination that I'm visiting? Right. And I've had some interesting conversations with hotel staff about that because they think they're doing the right thing by giving me a room with two beds when they clearly were not. But I've actually found that by being open about the situation, they've actually been more apologetic than confrontational.

Right. Because ultimately, they're in the hospitality industry. So they really do want to do the right thing. And it's about education more than anything. It just depends on how much the individual person wants to take that on. Not everyone wants to go out there and be an advocate for LGBT travel. They might just want to go on vacation. Right, right.

Great points. You mentioned Olivia Cruises before. That's probably the most well-known lesbian tour operator. What exactly are they offering? Well, they primarily offer cruises, but they also offer land-based tours for women all over the world now. Interestingly enough, it was actually started in 1970. as a record label. And they released a lot of world music.

And then over time, they filled a void in the women's travel market by launching this company that has gone on to be the most successful lesbian travel company in the world. I hear a lot that it's a great sense of community. I mean, a lot of women like to travel in a women-only space. And there are many, many fans of Olivia Cruises who go back year after. year because it's a reunion with friends as much as a travel experience. What are some resources that women have for lesbian-friendly travel companies in addition to Olivia? Where would you point them to? Well, I think, again, this goes back to the plan

your trip feature. It depends on where they want to go. But I can say that we have some great lesbian tour operators working in New Zealand. New Zealand awaits is a good company. And New Zealand would be a great destination. Well, for any traveler, I love New Zealand. We have Brazil Eco Journeys, which is based in Florianopros, Brazil, and they do LGBT surf camps. So that's a really fun twist on a gay group trip, mixed men and women. We also have done a lot of work with Pink Iceland, which is a lesbian-run company in Reykjavik, and Iceland is another great destination for lesbians.

It's safe and really gorgeous and easy to travel. And then for African safaris, Wild Rainbow African safaris, Jody Cole is an amazing tour guide. Those are all fantastic tips. And I think that I read on your site that Provincetown, Massachusetts, was actually the first town to market itself to LGBT travelers. Would you be able to tell me any more about that? They were one of the pioneers. And Key West also started marking

to LGBT travelers about the same time. And interestingly, those are both destinations that have established Women's Weeks, Provincetown and Key West. Are those usually at a certain time of year? I just read that Provincetown has moved theirs from summer to October. Okay.

And Key West was traditionally September. And this was in the 70s when they started to market themselves? Oh, yeah, 77. Was this just because, you know, it's a big artistic community that already had LGBT residents? Yes. I mean, Provincetown and Key West are both, you know, resort communities that are somewhat isolated, that both developed into safe enclaves for LGBT people. So I don't think it's a surprise that there are places where LGBT events developed.

So geography plays a role in it, like Provincetown, is the farthest out on the Cape that you can get. And it was kind of a safe haven, would you say? I think so. I mean, a lot of artists were congregating there as well. And the same thing with Key West, you know, the southernmost point in the continental United States. There were a lot of artists. I mean, you had Tennessee Williams writing in Key West. Are you seeing any trends in LGBT travel?

One of the biggest trends that we're seeing is how much it's expanded beyond those enclaves, whereas LGBT travel used to be spoken about in the context of San Francisco, New York, Key West. Now we're talking about it in terms of the entire world. And even in places where you see gay travel happening around the main urban centers, it's really spreading out into smaller communities. What are like five great places for LGBT travel right now? Looking specifically in the context of lesbian travel, I would say that Portland is great. New York is always good for women. I would say that Sweden is spectacular for lesbians, and it's not just Stockholm. It's really traveling outside of the city.

It would be great for women. The same thing for Iceland. There are really good events happening in Reykjavik. It's very lesbian friendly, and it's also great for exploration around the entire country. And also, Argentina has really done a good job of. of expanding its outreach beyond Buenos Aires and also being inclusive of women in its promotion of LGBT tourism.

And Puerto Madrin in particular in Argentina, in Patagonia is a really amazing destination that a lot of people probably aren't familiar with, but it's got incredible wildlife. Whales and seal colonies, and really interesting otherworldly landscape. Fantastic recommendations. What's been your favorite trip?

I am incredibly passionate about travel in Africa. I could go on safari every day of my life. I love watching wildlife in its natural environment. And South Africa is historically the most LGBT-friendly country on the continent. So I'm a big fan. And then the most surprising favorite, I would say, in recent years, was actually Laos. I had always wanted to see Angkor Wat in Cambodia. And then I added on Laos on the recommendation of a friend as an extension of the trip and found it stunningly beautiful, incredibly easy to navigate as a woman.

and really less spoiled by tourism in many ways than Cambodia or Vietnam. Yeah, I think that's what a lot of us are looking for, just not being bombarded by tourists and really getting to know a place and the people there. The complete opposite of that, which cities would you say have the best pride events? Ah, pride. Well, so when you're ready to be surrounded by thousands and thousands of people, I think New York pride is hard to beat. I'm a big fan of New York. And I would also give a shout out to Toronto.

I think Toronto has an incredible LGBT community, and they do a really wonderful pride. And then, interestingly, Fort Lauderdale is going to. launch Pride of the Americas in 2020. What does that mean? And kind of on the same concept as Europride, but focused on the Americas, North and South America, but really drawing from the Caribbean and Central and South America, where it's certainly not so easy to be out and creating an event. So it'll be really interesting to see how that plays out. And I also want to, I also want to, to mention Fort Lauderdale in particular, not just because it's where IGLTA is headquartered, but because it's the only destination that's really done extensive outreach to the transgender

travel community and really made an effort to promote education and awareness within the businesses in Fort Lauderdale. And it's now also host to Southern Comfort, which is the largest transgender conference in the United States. You mentioned Euro Pride, a moment. moment ago. What is that exactly? You know, kind of like world pride, which cities bid and it's held in a different location globally. And then Europride is a large pride event that's pan-Europe. Okay. Because yeah, I mean, pride is just massive everywhere. Rome and Amsterdam, Berlin. Actually, I thought when I asked that first question about the best pride periods, I thought I would hear more European destinations. Well, actually, you know, Madrid pride is a really big one. I mean,

they hosted World Pride recently, but that's also the biggest pride event in Europe. So certainly Madrid is worth mentioning. And then interestingly, I was talking to Meg from Dokes on the road about this, and she said that for Lesbians, Cologne Germany was really women-centric at their Pride event. Okay. That's good to know. And so I think when we think of pride, people often think of June, but really it seems to stretch all summer long. But pride is also become, rather than just being tied to June, we're seeing it scheduled all over the calendar now. So there's really pride events year round. And in fact, IGLTA now has a global pride calendar online.

So if you go on our website and click on the events tab, you can see the Pride. calendar and there are, you know, close to 200 listings around the world of Pride events and we're adding them all the time. So as I was researching this episode, I came across a question saying, are we entering a post-gay world where LGBT travel is converging into the mainstream? What do you think about that? I think the answer is absolutely and not at all. expand please so what i would say is that in western europe in in the u.s and Canada i think that you're definitely seeing that trend we see a lot more destination marketing companies that incorporate LGBT imagery into their mainstream campaigns there have been a number of bar closings we see a lot more

particularly millennial travelers moving into spaces that are just queer or friendly to everyone rather than being exclusively LGBT. However, I think the danger is that when you look at that concept, you're coming from a place where LGBT visibility has moved forward so much, and you're forgetting about the fact that there are still more than 70 countries in the world where same-sex relationships, are criminalized, and there's still a number of those that impose the death penalty. So we're a long way from post-gay travel in the Middle East. We're a long way from post-gay travel in most of Africa in big parts of Asia.

So I think it's really important to look in the context of the world when we're talking about that. Great answer. Thank you so much, Loanne, for taking the time to talk to me. today. You mentioned it before, but can you tell us one more time where people can find out more about IGLTA? I am always happy to plug IGLTA. And you can check out IGLTA.org to find out tours, gay welcoming businesses around the world, events, specials. And you can also sign up for our consumer newsletter, which will drop into your inbox a couple of times a month and highlight some of

those things. Okay, perfect. Is there anything else you wanted to add? It doesn't really matter where you travel, just get out there and travel. Because I think the best way to erase borders and create better understanding between people is to experience the world. Yes, I completely agree. Thank you so much, Loanne. Thanks so much, Sarah. Take care. Before we get to my conversation with Roxanne and Marcia, just a quick mention that this podcast is also brought to you by World Nomads. If you are on the hunt for simple and flexible travel insurance, check out what world nomads has to offer. This is where I go to buy my travel insurance, and one reason that I really like them is that you can be completely last minute. You can even buy your insurance after you take off for your

trip if you've forgotten. And they have a very helpful calculator to get a cost estimate, which you can use if you go to postcardacademy.co slash insurance. Now into my conversation with Roxanne and Marcia. Welcome, Roxanne and Marcia. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having us. So could we just take a second? Could each of you please introduce yourselves? Yeah, so shall I start? I'm Roxanne.

I'm 25 years old. And I'm from the Netherlands, from a very small town that even Dutch people don't know about. It's a bit like a farmer place in the Netherlands. My biggest hobby is like travel. I like to play sports, but I don't play sports at the moment. So, yeah, that is, and like photography and writing. Yeah, and I'm Marcia. I'm 23 years old. I'm also from the Netherlands, but more from the north. We met the cinema five years ago, and one and a half year ago we decided to travel together,

and I was always a bit more the creative one, I guess, and I always loved writing and taking pictures. So that's mostly my hobby, and I wanted to make it into something, and then I dragged Roxanne. That's my hobby as well. Okay, I would love to hear more about this. So you guys have a blog called Once Upon a Journey. And on your site it says, you're two girls in love with each other, the world writing and photographing.

Why did you create this blog? An idea at first was to tell travels or fairy tales and folktales from all around the world. So that's why our name is Once Upon a Journey. and we had this whole big idea, and then it was very difficult, and it took a lot of work, and then we were already making beautiful stories ourselves while traveling. Then we started to share those. Yeah, so tell me more about the type of content that you're creating on your blog. So at first, it was just like travel journaling, mostly for our friends and family,

just sharing what we did, and then we noticed some people asked for advice, so we wanted to share more tips on our blog. We started out as budget travelers, so we did a lot of budget stuff. And then we found out, well, what makes us a bit special is that we're a girl's couple, and we never thought of ourselves as the girls' couple that's traveling or something, but then we noticed other girls' couples asked us questions, like what is it like, what is it like, travel together. and then we noticed, well, maybe this is something we should write more about. You guys touched on how you met at a cinema.

Could you talk a little bit more about that? Yeah, that's pretty funny because Michael was already, like we were working at the cinema as a job on the site while studying. And Matthew was already working there and I came to work there as well. And Michael was still in a relationship with a boy and we became friends and she broke up with the boy, not for me. But then she had like a pretty wild time going out and stuff. So yeah, we went out a lot together. And then I discovered that I might be into girls also. And then Roxanne was like, whoa, maybe me too.

And then at first I thought, oh, I hope she doesn't fall in love with me. But then, of course, I fell in love with her. And then everything happened all at once. I started living with her and we worked at the same place. We were the same student association. Luckily, we weren't studying the same thing, but then we did everything together, basically. Well, I guess that's good prep for spending 15 months traveling together through Asia and North America, because you guys were together pretty much 24-7.

What inspired this epic trip? Well, I think, so when we got together after five months, I went studying abroad in the States for five months. And I had already traveled before in Europe and I've been to Africa a couple of times. And I think that's where the travel bug for me came from. And then after I studied in the States for a semester, I knew like I wanted to see even more. more of the world. Yeah, and luckily I wanted to do that too. Yeah, Roxanne had already traveled six months before that, also to Asia.

So luckily she was up for it to do it again. So you guys were traveling for 15 months. Before this big trip, had you traveled together before? Only small trips. I went to the States for one week to visit Marjja. We did some weekend trips because it's very easy in Europe to travel. So our first weekend or trip was to have. Rome. But we also went to Dublin, Paris, Berlin. And these little taster trips were like nice and fun

and you were like, let's do something much bigger. Yeah, that's our next step. Like some people buy a house and we just got travel. I'm still there. How did you plan for this trip? We were working crazy hours to make as much money and save as much money as possible. I think. But we sold all our stuff. Yeah, we sold all of our stuff. We sold all of our stuff. We sold all of our stuff, we gave up our apartment. Yeah, so it was quite the process. It took like one and a half year of saving and working and everything and planning. I finished in July and we left in March.

So I have like seven months. Yeah, I finished studying a year earlier than Rocks did. So for me, the weight was a bit longer. So how much money did you have at the start of the trip? Were you budgeting a certain amount? No, we were just saving up as much as possible. We had this idea of at least, like, what was it? 16,000 euros.

And then we got there and we were like, let's just go on. And like, the more money we have, the better, because it was a trip for an indefinite period of time. So you can never have enough money for indefinite. Right. So, yeah. So you were saving, saving, saving. And then when did you decide, okay, we need to just go on this trip.

We wanted to start in Russia with the Trans-Siberian train. And we left the Netherlands in March, but if we went earlier, it was too cold in Russia. So we also waited a bit to spring. Tell me more about the Trans-Siberian Railroad. What was that like? It was very interesting.

Yeah. It's funny because we talk to a lot of people and they all say like, it's on my bucket list. I want to do it. And it's funny because we never really heard about it. And then we just decided we had to start somewhere. And then there was this train and we were like, oh, that sounds cool.

So in March it was still very cold. Well, they say it's spring, but there's still a lot of snow. And for us, that's winter. We decided to get on and off the trains and not do it in one go. Because if you do it in one go, it's like an entire week. of being in the train and we did maximum I think 28 hours or something yeah so we did sleep on the train and they they all have births like the sleeping places and there aren't even seats in the trains no we expected the third class to have seats but then we tried

the third class and it was just like a really big hostile room or something with like 50 beds or something like bunk beds yeah so every right really depended on like the people in our cupé do you say a cabin or cabin yeah so a lot of the time we did like the second class and then you have a cabin with uh they have like four beds so then you're with the four two other people at the most so we had big russian guys who brought us croissants, but we also had a Russian guy, I was very drunk at night, but we also had like moms with a baby. Yeah, it was like different all the time.

And so in Russia, what was your favorite place to get off on the train? Like, what was the most interesting thing that you saw? Oh, definitely Lake by Call. Yes, for sure. We went to Lake by Cal, which is this very, I think it's the largest, like, freshwater lake in the world, maybe. Or the deepest or something. Oh, yeah.

Something that big is or largest. biggest with volume or something. Yeah. And it was a frozen so we could drive with it by car over the ice. We went in this Russian fan and we were just going over the ice with like 120 kilometers per hour. I'm not sure in miles, but it was very fast. And the ice is really cool because it has all these like tears in it or something like

stripes, like because the water is moving underneath, so it cracks. Okay. And it has this very cool. Well, you have to see pictures. It's really cool. What was your final destination on this railroad? So we started Russia, then went into Mongolia, into China. So we ended the trans-Mongolian in Beijing.

We originally wanted to do the entire traditional Trans-Siberian until Vladivostok. But then we weren't so interested in that place, so we decided to go in Mongolia and China. Yeah. Okay. Did you feel safe as a lesbian couple traveling in these countries? Nobody knew we were a couple. Yeah. I think we did not show in Russia because, yeah, also, like, my parents are very scared.

We're going to start in Russia. So we were very, how do you say it? Yeah, we just hid it. And we didn't, yeah, we didn't show any PDA or something. And we look pretty feminine, so people don't expect us to. I mean, when they see us, they just see two friends. And I know that you decided not to boycott countries with anti-gay laws. Can you tell me more about that?

And are there any countries that you would not travel to? Yeah, I think I don't want to boycott. countries because they have anti-LGBT laws, because every country has this LGBT community, and we're not necessarily searching for those everywhere we go, also because of safety. But I think we have beautiful experiences everywhere, and we wouldn't have those experience if we would boycott a country. On your blog, you have an article offering tips on traveling as a lesbian couple. So could you share some of those tips?

It is very important that you research anti-gay laws before you go into a country, also because you need to know what the rules are. And of course it's a different thing, how they are enforced. They aren't always enforced, but it's really important to know them. Because something might, if you're clueless about the rules, rules in a country and you just go there and do whatever. Like you're in Amsterdam. Like in general, in every country, every country you visit, you have to adapt to the culture. You have to know to look what other people are doing and not just bring

your own culture and your own values to that place because you're a visitor in a place. So you have to adapt. For example, in Korea and in Taiwan, we saw a lot of, especially in Taiwan, gay couples or lesbian couples walking hand in hand so we're like oh we can do that we can do that too yeah it's it's also really funny because you have this expectation of a place or you research the anti-gay laws or something but then you're in a country and you experience something very different and you can see how different people are about it like the public opinion is always something different than a law in a country that's also in the Netherlands like by law everyone's equal but still there's discrimination so yeah that's very important to keep

your eyes out and see what's possible like in a lot of countries girls walk hand in hand so we can just do that and they won't even think we're a couple but just because we're girls we can do it or sometimes they do think you're a couple and sometimes that's okay and especially in Taiwan we were so surprised like we saw even same-sex couples kiss on the streets and we were like wow we did not expect this what was your favorite city oh maybe soul yeah i think so yeah we stayed two weeks in soul in korea and that was really awesome because we didn't know much about korea before we got there but then i made a friend when i was studying abroad in the states and she was korea and she was like you have to come here so i said yes i'm going to come to you and like two

years. And then I was there after two years. And it's a really great city because it's like it has a lot of modern things, but it also has a lot of traditional things and palaces and traditional clothing and everything. Where did you stay when you were there? So we went to this island. It's called J-Ju and we went to Seoul for two weeks. We were planning on traveling around Korea a bit more, but then we like Seoul that much. So we stayed there for two weeks. And what was the cheapest place that you visited. Well, it's funny because I think Japan was actually our cheapest country. That is so surprising.

Yeah. That's because we were couch surfing and hitchhiking and we really made it a goal to make our cheapest country. We ate at the 7-Eleven and everything. Just because everyone warned us like, oh, Japan is going to be crazy expensive and we're like, no, we can do this. Yeah. And compared to European prices, I think it's really okay.

But I think besides Japan, I think Vietnam or Malaysia is what's like the cheapest. Yeah, Malaysia is also very cheap. For people who aren't familiar with couch surfing, what is that exactly? Yeah, so you have like, it's like a website and you can make a profile. And then if you go to a place, you can look up if there are people where you can stay. Yeah, that are hosting. It's a little bit like Airbnb. be, but then it's for free.

So, well, not really for free, because in return, of course, you're going to do, spend time together and learn from each other and have conversations about all kinds of things, often traveling, because they are often, hosts are often travelers themselves. And then you can stay with locals all over the world. Tell me more about Japan and how you saved money. I'm curious to hear more about your. house-sitting experiences and also hitchhiking because, you know, at least in the States, we're always warned against how that's the most dangerous thing.

Japanese people are the most friendly people ever. So, yeah, it's also, like we are two girls, so that's maybe a bit more easier than like a guy and a girl and two guys to hitchhike. But like the long as we waited is once like one hour or something, they were so happy to pick us up. And like Japanese people don't hitchhike or not that much. so they were pretty surprised to see us. I think they're also worried about safety

and then they just want to take you with them because maybe they're going to be like, it's going to be unsafe. And we never felt unsafe in Japan. It's like one of the safest countries in the world. And we did couch surfing a lot in Japan. And yeah, it was like a good way to really connect with Japanese people. You mentioned that other lesbian couples have written

into you guys asking questions about travel. What are some of the things that they're asking you? I think especially about safety. Sometimes we get questions about gendered bathrooms. We recently got a question like, how is that in Europe? That's something we cannot really answer ourselves because we do look feminine. I did grow my hair out because of the trip. I wanted to look more feminine and fit in this whole image of what a girl looks like or something.

and because of safety and now I've decided to cut my hair short again and I'm really curious to see if that's going to make a difference while traveling. That's something I'm a little bit nervous about but I think it's also really important to experience and this is just how I feel most myself. So I'm really, yeah, I'm curious to see

if people are going to see it the same way or it's going to be different. I know that certain travelers like to meet similar people. So do you have any advice for lesbians who want to meet other lesbians while traveling, whether that's for friendship or dating? Yeah, there are a lot of Facebook groups. Like what is the other, like, girls love, travel, but pride? Yeah, I think so.

That is one. But there are multiple, which you can join and just ask where, like, people are right now in the world or, like, if you can meet up. And I think couch surfing is. It's also like a great way to meet people. And if you really say that you're like a lesbian girl or something like that and you want to meet. There are also groups on couch surfing. Yeah.

So you can join those groups and then you can ask if someone wants to meet up. We recently found out about an app. It's called her. We haven't used it, but it's also a way. It's also for dating, but it's also for just socializing. And then it's a little bit like Tinder. they see who's in your area. And then you can also meet up or date.

Okay, great. So the Netherlands, where you guys are from, was the first country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage back in 2001. This seems like quite a gay-friendly country. What would you say are the top five LGBT-friendly destinations? Yeah, so like we talked about Taiwan, like Taiwan is our favorite LGBT destination. and we really like Thailand also because it's like more open and more free

only went to the northern part but we really like Bangkok and Chiang Mai and when we fly to Asia later on we will fly to Pouquet so we will explore more of the southern parts of Thailand but yeah we really love Bangkok and in Europe

I think it's Amsterdam and Berlin but like we want to go together to place like Madrid and Barcelona as well because apparently those are very big gay cities in Europe. What did you like so much about Bangkok? It's funny because a lot of people say you either hate it or love it. We did have a really nice house sit there for three weeks. So we could really feel at home.

I mean, it's a big city. There's so much to see and to do. You can do everything. And we really like to go to the cinema. And the cinema isn't that expensive. So that's really good. And I think the vibes and the atmosphere, so it's very busy, but I like that. Yeah.

Yeah. You like a bit of chaos? Yeah. Yeah. Not all the time, but like for a while. So I know that Thailand, I think, has a special place in your hearts because you got engaged there this year. And, Marcia, you said that it was the most awkward proposal ever. Do you want to share that story?

Yeah, so I was so nervous. That was mostly why it became super awkward, and I kept it all to myself. And I know how much family means to Roxanne, and then her dad and stepmom were visiting, and we went to the beautiful Yipeng Lantern Festival in Chiang Mai. And I knew this was going to be that magical moment, and I had to do it.

But then we were there, Of course, when thousands of lanterns float into the sky, there are also like more than thousand people on the ground. And it was so crowded and it wasn't as, well, it was very magical, but it was also really, really, really crowded and stressful. And I also wanted to have nice pictures and nice videos, but I also wanted to propose at the right time. And then of course, I wanted this proposal where like everything

fades away and you're just with the two of you but then there were so many people like that was not going to happen so yeah then I was so nervous and Roxanne was like don't be so nervous all the time like you already got good pictures and good video you can stop being nervous now then of course I couldn't and then at some point she got angry with me she's like you have to stop this whole nervous thing now because I don't like it and then we got this whole tension and then I I started crying. I was like, no. She was like, what is it?

Just tell me. And I'm like, I can. And then she was joking, like, but you aren't going to propose, right? And then I was crying, yes, I want. And then that's how it got out. And then we were just, I was laughing and crying at the same time. And she was mostly laughing and also like, uh, why did you make it? so hard for yourself and uh so did you pull out a ring then later that night later that night we were

still with all other people so then later we were on this bridge together and we had this one lantern who got who got destroyed yeah got a fire yeah caught fire yeah oh no yeah but yeah then i had the ring and you said yes so in the end i guess that's all that really matters right yeah yeah what city would you say has the best pride festival that you've been to? Amsterdam. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we love pride in Amsterdam. And like the last pride we went on a boat and like the Kennel Parade is like fantastic. Also to watch but also to be on a boat. It's like it's crazy. So many people come to Amsterdam to just. Yeah, it's a crazy party. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a canal parade. What else is going on? Yeah, the entire week there are, we have a Pride week, not an entire month, but Pride Week in Amsterdam.

And there are all these kind of activities, parties. There's a Pride walk, which is more like a March. Like all around the city, they're like, especially the last weekend, like people perform, but there are also DJs, like on every square, like there's a party. A lot of street parties also. Yeah. And then the canal parade is like the biggest event of awe, and it's on the last Saturday. There are like 80 boats or something, and they go through the canals of Amsterdam, and then

everybody on the side can watch. And they're like small boats on the side of people watching. So it's like very narrow to go through with your big boat. It's super crowded. It was just like beginning of August. I'm not sure what kind of nightlife you guys are into, but is there any city that you think is particularly good for lesbian nightlife and clubs and things like that? It's funny because we always say like, okay, in this city we're going to try to find like a nice

lesbian bar or a gay bar, but then we end up couch surfing and when you're couch surfing, you have to adapt also and you want to adapt. So of course you go do fun stuff with your host, but then you can come home late at four or something. So then we end up not going to any clubs. But I think Berlin is a great place Yeah, that's true Yeah We had a lot of fun there Like the weekend before Pride in Amsterdam

Was Pride in Berlin And we also went there And it was like Also fantastic Berlin has this whole vibe of like I'm just gonna be who I am And nobody's gonna care And that's really awesome

Were there any particular places That you would recommend Like you have to go here In Berlin we went to the Shwitz Shwut or Shmuts Shwitz. And it's like a pretty big club.

Yeah, it's a really famous gay club. Yeah. And it has different rooms, different kind of music. Yeah, that was cool. Yeah, yeah, we liked that. Have you ever stayed at an LGBT resort or a cruise or done something specifically for lesbian and gay travelers? Not a cruise or resort yet, but when we book hotels or when we try to

collaborate with hotels. We're always looking for LGBT-friendly hotels. So for example, in Berlin, you have this pink pillow collective. For us, it's really important to stay in places who are welcoming of LGBT travelers. So you guys are together all day and all night. How do you make that work? Because a lot of people would find that quite intense. What advice do you have for other traveling couples. Especially in the beginning it was also a bit difficult because of course also when you're traveling there are a lot of extra stress factors that are playing parts. For example like when I get hungry I get very angry and then of course you have to at some point you have to realize okay maybe I need some food now and maybe we can have some coffee somewhere and then we can be

nice again. So I think it's a lot um about figuring out how to... The right balance. Yeah, the right balance. I think it's also very important to communicate, be a little nicer to the other one than you want to be maybe, but then, yeah, also be a bit nicer to yourself. I think for us, it also really helps when we spend more time together.

Like, you're forced to talk things out. Like, you're stuck together. So if you're angry, like, you have to solve the problem. problem because otherwise you can't be angry the whole time and you have you still have to do stuff together so I think for us that helps to have this little extra push like you need to fix it now because otherwise like you're stuck anyway so better make it nice so open communication if something's bothering you talk about it right then and there instead of like holding it in for later yes yeah totally thank you so much for coming on it has been so nice chatting with you

and I look forward to continuing to follow your adventures. Where can people find out more about you? I think mostly on our blog about our coming out story and our love story, but everyone can send us like an email or a message on Instagram and like we will respond. Yeah, so we have the blog Once Upon a Journey.com and Journey without the vowels. And on Instagram, we're also once upon a journey and on and then Journey without the vowels. Yeah, that's how people can find us. Yes, thank you very much for having us.

Thanks so much, guys. Okay. Yeah, thank you. Bye, bye, guys. That Once Upon a Journey website spelling is a little tricky. It's spelled once upon the words, and then the letters a jr-n-y.com. I will link to this in the show notes. Plus, I will share some of the gorgeous photos that Roxanne and March have taken around the world.

And I will include all the great resources that Loanne mentioned. All of this can be fantastic. at postcardacademy.co. And if you so desire, when you're there, you can also sign up for the Postcard Academy newsletter, in which I will share travel essays, guides, and other useful info. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe if you haven't already and tell a friend about it. This is the best way to grow the show. That's all for now. Thanks for listening, and have a beautiful week wherever you are. Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free conversation sheet sheet with simple,

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