Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - Lucca, Pisa, and Other Towns in Tuscany You Must Visit

Episode Date: November 30, 2018

Enough with Florence and Siena already. You should be walking the medieval walls of Lucca; eating aperitivo in Pisa; sipping Chianti at Castello di Brolio; or lounging by the sea in San Vicenzo.    On this episode, Toni Mazzaglia, founder of the food tour company Taste Florence, and I recap our recent road trip through Tuscany. After interviewing Toni for the Florence episode of this podcast, we became fast friends (which you’ll hear on this podcast because we’re gigging our heads off).    Find travel guides containing names, links, and photos of the places we visited at  postcardacademy.co    I’m your host, Sarah Mikutel. Ready to travel? Sign up for my newsletter and get your free guide to cheap airfare.    Thank you so much for listening to this show. I know you’re busy and have many listening options, so it means a lot to me that you’re here. You are the best.   This podcast is brought to you by Audible. Not a member yet? Postcard Academy listeners can get a FREE audiobook and a 30-day free trial if you sign up via audibletrial.com/postcard   This podcast is also brought to you by World Nomads. Need simple and flexible travel insurance? Get a cost estimate from World Nomads using their handy calculator at postcardacademy.co/insuranceDo you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

Welcome to the Postcard Academy, your weekly travel and culture podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Megatel, and I have spent the last few weeks traveling around Tuscany. A few months ago, I interviewed the founder of the food tour company, Taste Florence. I think I mentioned that before meeting Tony Matsalia and going on her food tour, I was not a massive fan of Florence. I'm more on the side of team Rome, and felt like Florence was just too congested with tourists. Yeah, there's tourism in Rome, but it's just a much bigger city. But thanks to Tony, I really came to enjoy eating my way around those little quarantine streets.

So when she invited me on a road trip through Tuscany with her, I of course said yes. Actually, I think Tony was just making an offhanded comment about maybe doing a trip like this, but I ran with it. So I went and I stayed with Tony and her lovely dog, Teddy, and we went to some of Tony's favorite Tuscan towns I had not been to yet. On this episode, you'll learn all about Luca and Pisa, both places that I fell in love with and would actually stay in over Florence. And we talk about a few other Tuscan gems. As we're recording this, a week has passed since our trip. Tony is in Florence. I'm in Luca, or I returned on my own to spend a little more time there. And so we called each other to catch up and reminisce on all the things we did.

It's late at night, and by late, I mean like 10 or 10.30. And so we're a little bit giggly at some points, probably a little delirious. Regardless, we recorded our conversation to help you plan your Tuscan trip. And if you visit Postcardacademy.co, you will find names, links, and photos of the places that we visited. Before we get to our conversation, real quick, this episode is sponsored by World Nomads. Are you traveling abroad soon? travel insurance is a very smart idea. You can get a free cost estimate using the handy world nomads insurance calculator by visiting postcardacademy.co slash insurance. And while you're

planning for your trip, don't forget your reading and listening material. If you sign up for audible using the link audible trial.com slash postcard, you can get a free audiobook and a 30-day free trial. Now into my conversation with Tony. So thank you so much, Tony, for showing me around Tuscany a week or so ago. And also for letting me sleep in Teddy's bedroom. By the way, I just wanted to point out, and I'm saying this also to plug you to the people that know in the future that host you, that you're a very good houseguests. Oh, thanks. Thank you.

Because, like, you get out of the car, the whole train thing happened kind of fast. And then after you left, I was like, my sunglasses, I forgot to ask for them. And then I looked down, and there they were. very discreetly who had already put them you put everything backward came from I had a house guest for one night on Saturday he took off with a whole tube of toothpaste How is that even possible?

In Italy it's not like he's like hard up for toothpaste Like a travel world you know So we explored a few places that you told me about When you came on the podcast the first time and my favorite spot was the dinner we had at Coquineadius, where I got to meet Nico, one of the lovely owners. And I really loved that place. The atmosphere was awesome. The acoustics were good.

I could actually hear what you were saying. Exactly. The lighting. The lighting was wonderful and horrible for Instagram. So, well, we all have to take the obligatory photos of our food. It wasn't like the type of place that was overrun with like Instagram crazy people. It was just a place with delicious food. So we ordered a bunch of Christina.

I appreciate you going vegetarian that night. Oh, yeah. That was no problem at all because that place has a lot of good vegetarian stuff. And then while you were getting your tires changed, I went to the Santa Rosa Bistro. I forgot about the tires. The one day I remembered to journal, I wrote. I wrote about you getting your tires changed. I'm in journaling.

And so, yes, I went, because I wrote this down, I remember I went to the Santa Rosa Bistro, and they were not as warm and friendly as the Coquinarious guys. But you were right, that is a very good place to go and get work done. And they're like very chill and don't care if you stay there all day. Yeah, you either get chill and I don't care or woman friendly. It's hard to find the combination. Especially in, I mean, yeah, in Florence, you know, like little warm fuzzy bears, hard to find. You know, also that's a trendy area right now.

They're too cool for school. Okay. Not necessarily just that restaurant. I'm not saying that about them in particular. I'm just saying they don't really need business. over there because it's just booming. You know what I mean? That drives me crazy, though, when restaurants are like, I don't need you.

Yeah. Yeah. Leave with love. Treat your customers kindly. And the trendy places or like anywhere where there's somebody with suspenders and beards making coffee, you're not going to get any love. You're just going to get attitude and higher prices. And since you are talking about like the warm and fuzzies, I also went back to

you for No Bruski, which you took me on the tour. Actually, now that I'm like retracing my steps, I went there and got the kokuli with mozzarella and tomato, which was delicious. And then I also went and got some contucci as well. Oh, yeah. So, yes. So we didn't spend a ton of time in Florence, but I hid all the hot spots. And then we spent most of our time doing day trips.

So we planned to go on an olive oil harvest. That did not work out as expected. No, it did not. But we did a lot of other cool things. I guess the climate was just climate change has ruined yet another thing. And they had to harvest earlier than they thought, is that what happened? Yeah. I mean, the places that I had, you know, been plotting and thinking of for months, you know,

when I called them, like, back in, I don't know, September or whenever we were. we decided you were coming in late October. They were like, oh, yeah, there's plenty of time. And, you know, we start in late October and we go all the way until the end of November. And then, you know, you booked your ticket and you wrote me. And so I started calling them again. They're like, oh, we've already finished picking. And I'm like, what do you mean?

You've already finished. I told you I was bringing somebody. So we didn't get to go to the places I wanted to bring me to on the coast. So I guess that's a note for people. If you want to go to any sort of olive oil harvest, then. Hit more end of October, because you never know. Yeah. Yeah.

So Costello di Brolio was so cool. I'm really glad that we went there. Me too. Do you want to talk about that at all? I knew about it, but I hadn't been. And so I enjoyed it because it was new for both of us. And I thought that Jamie just did such a nice job showing us around. and I'm going to sound like a total brat, but I've seen a lot of castles.

I've seen many a castle in my time in Italy. And so after a while, you're like, oh, yeah, whatever, I'm going to a castle. And this was probably one of the most beautiful ones I've seen. Hands down, it was just amazing. Yeah, what was your take on it? Well, I just thought it was the history of it was amazing. So it's the second oldest winery in the world. and it's also where Keanti was invented.

And you were telling me that for a few decades, Kianti was sort of looked down upon, which I thought was interesting. I didn't know that. It went through a little rough patch, kind of when we switched over from being, you know, under a kingdom and having a feudal system and all those things to switching into a republic.

And so like after World War II, when we got into an economic boom and the farmers that knew how to make wine weren't really making it anymore. And they just started making like a whole bunch of bad Kianti. It just, things got a little out of control. So why weren't they making it anymore? We're like the former wine workers like in factories now and they just didn't have.

A lot of them were going to work in car factories and like Piaggio, which is in Ponte Dera, which isn't far from Pisa and Luca. They were going to work in these factories and because they didn't have to work on the farm anymore. So the younger generations were finally going and working for money. And they could actually afford wine. And the irony was is that there wasn't much good wine being made at that time. So there was more of a demand for wine, but there wasn't as much know-how. And that just was kind of like a little, you know, growing pains that happened.

And then eventually they came through with the DOCG and kind of controlling how it was made and improved again. So at the Castello di Brollio, they were one of the vineyards that did not stray, and they kept it pure for 900 years now. So we were visiting your friend Jamie up there, and she took us on a little tour of the castle. But you can't go inside because the family still owns it. You can only go on the outside. And I guess there's a little museum that we didn't get a chance to sit. Yeah, we didn't see everything because she squeezed us in to do and see a lot of things and have lunch, have a tour, have a wine tasting, go to the frontoyo to see the olive oil. So she kind of squeezed a bunch of things into one or like almost half a day.

Yeah, I would definitely recommend that people check it out, though, if you want to visit some sort of like place in the Keanti region. I always like to recommend a place that you can get to by public transport. I'm not sure that you can't get here by public transport. But it's definitely worth it. And you can book tours of the vineyard. I think they have a few different tour options. But you can do a tasting of wine or oil. And yeah, and the lunch that we had at, I think the place was Il Carlino Doro.

Was so good. Everyone in town was there. It was very good. I got the duck because I have for years in trying to replace. the duck confi that I didn't get to eat in Corsica. It's something that haunts me. The duck was good. It was okay.

Jamie got the Osobuca, which was incredible. What did you get? You got ribolita, and then you also got a pasta, right? Yep. So I had like a hearty Tuscan soup and then pasta with porcini. I've been eating a lot of porcini. It's been great. Yeah, every I see porcini, I think of you.

And so, but outside the cast, So when we were just looking overlooking the vineyards and stuff, it was gorgeous. One of the most beautiful views of Tuscany, I think, that I've seen. It was really perfect. It was magical. The lighting was perfect. Did Jamie say that the Medici thought that this was like a very strategic place, even though I felt like we were in the middle of nowhere. And so they invested a lot of money to refurbish the castle.

Yeah, I remember her mentioning something about the Medici thinking it was strategic because it was, near Siena, you're a better listener than me, if you're probably correct. I don't know about the refurbishing thing, but I know just like the fact that they wanted to kind of give resources to the family, to the Rihazuli. They recognize that they should have an alliance with them. That was what I got out of it. That was my takeaway. Sounds good. Okay. Consider it a wine tasting, I'm very proud of us. Another place that we went to was Sen and Miniatto. And one of the other reasons in addition to olive oil that I specifically came to visit you around in November was to do some truffle activity. How long did it take us to get there from

Florence? San Miniatto from Florence. I want to say it's like 45 minutes, maybe 50. It's perfectly located in between Florence and Pisa. And it's a great little hill town. There's San Miniatto and And there's also San Mniato Basso, which we didn't bother with. That's the kind of boring, more modern part. But San Mniato is up on the hill, and I like it because it's not your classic hilltown. Hilltowns usually have two formations. Either, you know, there's a wall around the whole thing, and you can't park inside, and you have to schlep up a hill to get there, and there's maybe one main piazza.

Or you have kind of the spiral fortified, like Lardi, which is really cute. where the walls go in almost like a spiral formation. And so you kind of loop around the town when you go in there. What I like about San Mniato is there's all these different piazza and they're all kind of just jotting out. It doesn't really have any rhyme or reason. It kind of feels like they just kept building onto it. But it's a great surprise when you go there

because every time you turn a corner and you think you've seen everything, you see a whole other piazza, a whole other square that has a church or a tower or just something quaint about it. And it's just, it's not like a very popular site for tourism, but it's definitely worth visiting. Yeah, I thought it was really cute. We were there at nighttime, so I'm really not sure what it has going on in terms of like shops and restaurants and stuff. But it definitely had like a smaller town feel if you want to get away from like, what are, what are some of the other ones that people are always going to? San DiManano.

Yeah, San Gennano, Siena. Pienza. I love Pianza though. Pianza is really cute. It's not as well-known, not as famous, and it's also in a different direction. So in this case, you're going towards the sea. So it's a perfect kind of stop halfway between Florence and Pisa. Yeah, truffles grow all around there.

They grow around Sanmeniato, Ponte deira. There's a couple of bigger, I don't want to say producers because you don't produce them, you find them. But the biggest one I know of from that area is Savini. and they have a shop in the central market in Florence. They've got a restaurant in Florence, but they find most of their truffles kind of in that area. I always like to say in between Florence and Pisa and the countryside, they're outside of some in the afto.

So it's an area that a lot of truffles grow in, black truffles, white truffles, and it might not be as famous as Alba, you know, up in Piamonte, but it's equally important. There's tons of truffles growing there. I was really surprised to learn when we were there that fresh truffles only last one week. Yeah. That's what I mean, it makes them even more expensive because it's such a fleeting delicacy. You can't, you can't buy it and save it and keep it forever.

And that's why there's all these different things like the truffle butter and triple oil and triple salt, triple honey. Because otherwise, the truffles just, it only lasts a couple weeks. And if you don't, if you're not there for it. it and you miss out on it. Did you, I didn't get to show you the one in the Mercato Centrali. There's like a plaster model of the biggest one that was found outside of San Manyato. Wait, I want to say 1.3 kilos. They made a plaster of this?

Yeah, they made like a little tribute to it. It sold for $200,000 in an auction. It was worth of $30,000, but it sold for $200,000 at an auction. and the people told me, the ones that found the truffle, said that the guy that bought it, bought it over the telephone and auction, and then he put it in his refrigerator, and then he left town for, I think, two months. Oh, my God. So by the time he got home, that giant truffle, I mean, I would say, I'm looking at my hands right now, probably like the size of the head of a cabbage patch kid. Oh, geez. Everyone knows what the size of the head of a cabbage patch kid looks like, right?

Like this size of the cabbage? Yeah. Yeah, that's probably what they call them cabbage. For more modern reference, I know what you're talking about. And if you're too young to know what we're talking about, then you shouldn't be listening. You don't deserve a podcast. And I don't want to ostracize all the young people. No, Cabbage kids were creepy little things that we...

They weren't creepy. I loved mine. Oh, man, they were creepy. My parents, our parents had to stand in line to get them at Christmas and play for them. I had two. Rosalie was one, and then I had a preemie named Noel, who I think I got at Christmas. Yeah. Well, Noel, yeah, definitely. Actually, you know, I think they're creepy because I didn't get a real one. I got one that my stepmother made. What? Like a homemade cabbage match kid. It was so creepy.

Oh, gosh. Okay, so basically, sorry. This is what happens when we stay up late. So basically, he left it in his refrigerator for quite some time. And when he came home, it was like a little teeny tiny nugget. And that refrigerator to this day smells like truffle. That's what they said in the article. That wasn't an article that was all hearsay. But I believe everyone.

It's the talk of the town. Well, that's pretty incredible that you would just like burn 200 grand. And I'm glad that I asked about this because I don't have any money to burn right now. And I was all ready to like invest in a little truffle shaver and a truffle thinking that it would last me for like a month. And they're like a no, like one week. And then the other but on a bright note, that butter that I bought, oh, that butter. What did you make with it? I made an like a spinach omelet and I used that, you had left that provolone, the smoked proflone.

So I made it spinach and smoked provolone and onion. onion. And then in the pan I put the truffle butter. Sarah. And then I made toast and I just coated the toast and truffle butter because now I'm on a mission. I have this jar of truffle butter. I have to finish it by December 3rd. So I'm just putting it on everything. Oh, I've been using my truffle salsa for everything. It's actually, I was thinking, first of all, vegan shops are popping up everywhere. But I was thinking, you know, it's actually quite easy to be vegan here, I think, because I have that truffle salsa, which is just truffle and oil, I think, and maybe some other mushrooms. That on toast is great.

That garlic bread that you made for me with just rubbing the garlic on the toast and then drizzling the fresh oil on it. Yeah, there's a lot of things that you can eat as a vegan here. And if you don't point out that they're vegan, they're things that most of the locals eat. And, you know, they consider them to be traditional and they're very proud of them. So, yeah, especially in the summer, there's so many vegan options. Let's talk about Luca. So you have expressed interest in possibly living here someday? I have.

I lived there. The first time I ever came to Italy in 1997, the very first place I had a house was in Luca. And I lived in the main street, which is Via Thilungo. And I loved it. and then I went back home and then I came back years later and I lived in Florence, which I also loved. But Luca has always been really dear to me and I just find it to be more user-friendly for someone who likes nature. You know, the walls are amazing with the trees and you can go bicycling if you do that kind of thing. Yeah.

Or jing if you do that kind of thing. Or for a nice lot of walk like I would do. So let's talk about that. So Luca, so I have been living here for the last week. And it was originally a Roman colony, or it might, I mean, it was a Roman colony. I think the Etruscans were here before then. And then it was independent for a while. And they had success with the silk trade.

In the 1300s, it fell to Pisa for a short time. But it was independent for like hundreds of years until Napoleon showed up and put his sister in charge for a decade. And Luca always seems to come out on top. It didn't, wasn't damaged. in World War II, the walls that you mentioned are perfectly intact. I think they were built in like the 1400s and 1500s. That sounds about right to me.

Yeah, 1400s, 1500s. And yeah, you can go walking, you can go jogging. We had a nice coffee up there. What are those things that you can rent that you wanted to try? Do you know what the names of those are? It looks like a little Flintstone Mobile. It's like a bicycle meets a golf cart. It's a golf cart, but it has several wheels.

It's like four or six wheels. And it's like I don't know what it's called. But, you know, like four or five people are pedaling. And every time I see, I mean, it's totally not an authentic local thing. It's totally for tourists, but I really want to do it. And I feel like I would thoroughly enjoy it. I feel like I've seen locals on these as well, just like for a laugh. And I walked by a place where you can rent them today.

called P-O-L-I. How much for? I didn't look at prices. I was actually on the wall, and I looked down, and I saw this shop with all the Flintstone mobiles and the bikes outside. Yeah, I went around the whole wall today. I did a little jog. How long it would you take to jog around it?

I can't really say, because I admit so that I walked a lot of it. I need to get back into shape. but I did go around the little thing and there were other people out there and yeah it's just a great way to spend the day especially when it's nice and sunny outside but um when did I think I got here on Friday and so I took a little stroll around town on Friday night and it was pretty quiet and um quite a switch from Pisa where I had just been which I'll talk about in a little bit but uh so I thought oh Lucas you know pretty subdued but then on Saturday I was you know pretty subdued but then on Saturday night, everybody was out doing their little passegata. And I actually asked a girl in one of the shops,

because they were open kind of like, oh, is there some sort of festival happening? And she said, no, it's just Saturday night. And I thought, oh, this is pretty cool. Sunday too, right? Like Sunday afternoon, after lunch, they're all out there and via filungo. Everybody. Really nice. Yeah. Everybody. Yeah. And it was a really nice day. There's so many piazzas here. And so I walked through one piazza gilio, and they had a theater there, but then an antiques market that spilled out into several other piazzas. So San Giovanni, which in that church, you can go in, and there's like a little museum where you can check out archaeological excavations and they have music in the evenings. And And then the antiques market also spills into San Martino, that piazza.

So you can find the big cathedral there that was built in like the 12th and 13th century, I think. And but yeah, everybody was just out and about and strolling around. And it's just such a nice community to live in, I think. Yeah, I really like it. So when we visited here, you took me around to a few places, a few. sites. We went and had the Torto di Chechi or Chechina at Felice, which is one of my favorites. So we went there for that and we went to, I always get the name wrong, Yorti di Elisa or something Elisa and Orto, which is one of my favorite little restaurants, even though I can't remember the name. And we had,

I got, you got polenta with Porcini and I got polenta with, I think, think chingiali. Yeah. The food was very good. The people are very nice. And why? Yeah, we just got the house red. I actually took a picture of it because I was such a big fan. It was really good. We didn't get dessert, did we? I don't think we had room for it. Yeah. Oh, we went to the chocolate place and we got that pistachio thing that was so sweet. It hurt our teeth. Yes. It literally my gums. We didn't even finish it. I think we just took a little nibble. Yeah, it was really too sweet. The coffee we had up on the wall was was wonderful. I think they might be closed for the summer. I've been up there a few times. I haven't seen it. Oh, no. But a place that does have good coffee, I had one Sunday morning, sat outside in the piazza,

was Café Santa Zita. So that's in the piazza that you said. It was nice to have a coffee, like a little bit more quiet. It's in the San Fridiano Piazza. And that's, um, so San Fridiano is an old church outside. You can see, um, a 13th century gold leaf Byzantine mosaic. And on the inside is this crazy, uh, you can see the full body of a saint, Saint Zeta, who died in like the 1200s, was it? I haven't seen that saint's body since I came here the first time in 1997. Because I just remember being like, oaky-dokey.

It's a shock. I mean, it's her real body, a real body. And she's not embalmed. She's like naturally preserved somehow, which I can't remember if that's why she's a saint or not. But it's definitely a sight to see. Yeah, absolutely. I still remember it's ingrained in my mind from 1997. I mean, it's not gross.

She looks like wood. She just looks like a wooden. Yeah. Manikin, I guess. Bad mannequin. Yeah, Santa Zita, the place you were saying for copy. That was the one I wanted to take you to, but we went through the amphitheatro. And so I missed that corner, you know?

Is it the one that's really cute inside? And it has a little window with the cakes that go around in circle, like the old school, Howard Johnson window. It was gorgeous inside. I don't remember if the cake spun, but I sat outside because the weather was nice and had a cappuccino and it was very good. And I had an apple pastry, which was also good. I think they used a stick of butter in that one pastry. Yeah. Okay, now I'm thinking about Luca. And so a place that we did not go in was the opera composer's house Puccini, so he's from Luca. I don't know if that's worth going in.

Have you ever been in there? I went in there back in 1997, yeah. There's a lot of places I haven't revisited, and it was just something we couldn't squeeze into because we were only there for maybe half a day. Yeah. Squeeze it in. Yeah, because I had to go back to Florence because I had a dinner that night. I mean, I think Luca is worth staying in.

In fact, yeah, it's worth more than a day trip. In fact, I would stay in Florence, like, I don't know, two nights and then base myself in Luca or Pisa, to be honest. I agree. I've recommended that to a lot of people. My dad's friends, when they came last year, I told them to stay in Luca and Pianza. Because they wanted to see Tuscany, and they're two different kind of corners of Tuscany.

And get a really good idea of, you know, the differences, too. And they're both good places to take day trips from. One of my favorite piazzas here is Piazza Napoleone. I can usually speak Italian. I don't know why I'm freezing at the mic that I'm not going to be able to pronounce. But I feel like I'm saying everything really bad. So Piazza Napoleone. And it's very big.

And there's also Palazzo Du Calais there, which I think there's a lot of government offices. but there's also a museum. So I plan on checking that out tomorrow. I think it's actually free on Tuesdays. Piazza Napoleone, when I lived there in 1997, was actually still a parking lot. Like they would actually let people come in and park there. So another thing that's great about Luca that we haven't really mentioned

is that traffic isn't allowed. So there aren't that many cars. Only locals, very few locals can take their cars in. And so you don't have all the traffic and smog and everything. But back when I first lived there, they could go in that far. Because, you know, it's not that far into the wall. It's like right away. Yeah, I think they changed that in 1998.

And I think that happened in quite a few places in Italy. By some miracle, they were able to change this because I've been to a few places where the locals have told me that, oh, this used to be a parking lot. Yeah. If you watch old movies in Florence, it's really funny. In front of Santa Croce, there used to be a gas station, like 10 feet in front of Santa Church. It's so weird. So, yeah, it's really funny to see how much it's changed over the last decades.

And even Luke, so if it changed in 1998, then basically the year after I was there, it changed. That's crazy. Years ago, I saw James Taylor play concert there. So I know they used to do concerts right there in that square. They'd fix it up like the whole summer. It's kind of tricked out for concerts. Yeah, I think it's the same. My favorite thing about Luca, I think, is just other than the fact that it's my first

memories in Italy, so those are those magical memories where you don't speak the language and it's like your first cappuccino and your first, you know, I mean, I did not speak a word of Italian. So for me, Luca has that nostalgia that I don't have in other parts of Italy. And then Luca itself. I love the walls. I just think it's the coolest thing ever that you can go up and take a walk.

Something that could be a symbol of being closed in and dark and medieval, it was made into something really beautiful. And it was made into their park. So I just absolutely think it's the coolest thing ever. Yeah, it is such a beautiful city and just clean, well preserved. You feel safe walking around.

People are quite friendly. But I love Pisa. as well. I think it's fantastic, but they're just such different cities. For example, in Luca, I think they would consider a lot of the people in Pisa to be sort of left-wing anarchists. And in Pisa, they consider the people in Luca to be right-wing fascists. And I've heard both of this. Yeah, they don't like each other at all. And it's, you know, a little bit of a truth in both. Luca definitely seems a little bit more conservative and but enough. And it's, you know, a little bit of a conservative and button up. And Bisa is a giant university city. And so, you know, there's like

lots of parties and lots of protests. And what was the phrase that you said about people from Pisa? So in Italian, it's, Maliona Morte in Casa, than a Pisano at the port. Which means better at death in your house than a Pizan at your door. And that's because they were tax collectors. Yeah, well, they were, they, they, all the goods were coming in through the port of Pisa. And so they were coming to your house to collect taxes because they were the ones that had all the stuff. So, like, especially salt. And so, like, if someone, if a Pizan was knocking at your door, you knew they wanted money from you. I think they were kind of the movers and shakers of the situation.

Yeah. So I know that hundreds of years ago, Pisa was like a real maritime powerhouse, just like in Venice. And I think they reached their peak in like the 12th and 13th centuries. And then Florence took over. And in the 1400s, the Medici's were in Pisa as well, encouraging the Renaissance and reestablishing the university there. And so I think they were famous for scholarship and for taxes. I read that 40% of Pisa's old town was destroyed during World War II, which is so sad. you wouldn't know it now. Of course, the city is most famous for its leaning tower. And I remember

when I was 19, my friends and I hopped off of our train. We took a quick photo of the tower and then we left. But I think everybody should spend more time in Pisa because it is such a great city. I agree. There's some cool stuff. Did you see Santa Maria de Las Pina, that little teeny tiny church on the river? No, I don't think I did. So think of like the Cathedral of Milan with all, you know, this very Gothic and all those little, it almost looks like a little sandcastle, you know, the little drippy towers on it. There's like almost like a miniature version of that on the river and Pisa. It's insane. And apparently it was bombarded or they just like tore it down or something and then it was eventually found at the bottom of the river and they reconstructed it.

It's called Santa Maria de la Spina. Wow. They found it in the water and then. must have used a picture or something to reconstruct it. So this is more hearsay. Because I don't know, I think I told you that I was engaged to a guy from Pisa. Yes. He was an engineer.

So he, when I moved there, he tried desperately to get me to fall in love with Pisa as much as I was in love with Florence. So he took me around and showed me everything and told me all the, you know, the folklore and everything. And I was very proud of that church. I have to say it is really cool. and from what I recall of him telling me it had been you know I think because you know not just bombarding during wars and stuff but you know like they would different um populations would go through and kind of build over each other's

stuff you know so like the present day Florence is totally different than Roman Florence like they kept building layer upon layer on these cities right so in Pisa I don't know if someone purposely uh got rid of the little church and you know and it went and they just got kind of discarded in the river, which is where they used to throw everything, or if it was bombarded at some point, but they found it eventually at the bottom of the river, and they reconstructed it. And this is, according to my ex, who was an engineer, who was a native Pisan, but we can definitely Google it and find out the better explanation. But you were talking

about the Medici and Pisa. He worked at, and when I tell people in Florence, they giggle, because they're like, that can't really be a thing. He worked at an office. is called Lufichio di Fiumi Fosci di Pisa. So the office of rivers and streams. He was a hydraulic engineer, and he loved anything that had to do with water. All of our first dates, my mom pointed out, she's like, everything you've done has been designed around a body of water. He took me to a lake.

He took me to a pond. He took me to a waterfall. He took me to the sea. He always took me to see water, and it didn't even dawn on me. But the Wufi Chufioumi Fosi, if you go back to Pueh-Méi Fonzi, if you go back to Puechliuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. It has beautiful frescoes, like going up into the office. It has this amazing courtyard. I mean, it's just a really gorgeous piece of property.

And that was started by the Medici because Pisa was a really silly place to build a city because it was basically swamp land. And so they decided, okay, we'll build here anyway because it's near the sea. But then they eventually figured out it hadn't been a great idea. So at the time of the Medici, the Medici decided we got to do something about this. and we've got to make it more structurally sound. So they opened the Uffizi, if you may, Fosu, which still exists. The heart of Pisa is just so beautiful, like you said.

It's full of old buildings with work of art ceilings. Pisa has like Bologna's activist energy, but without all the graffiti and like snabbery of the punkabistia and like well-to-do of Bologna. And has Florence's beauty, but without all the tourists. And it has kind of Naples sort of wild feel, but a little less wild and a little less petty crime as well, I think. So you have all of like these cool old sort of local places. But it actually is also still worth, I think, seeing the big sites. So I did go up the leaning tower of Pisa, up the almost 300 steps. And it was really cool.

You just feel like you're stepping back in time when you do that. like the stone steps are all warped from people walking up them for centuries. Yeah. I think it was built in like the 1100s. And I got a little bit dizzy when I got up to the top, but I made it. And it is, so the leaning tower, as you know, is part of the square of miracles, which is a UNESCO World Heritage site. So that includes the tower and then the cathedral and the baptistery and the

monumental cemetery. And the monumental cemetery is definitely worth seeing. Have you been inside there? Yes, it's gorgeous. So you've got these frescoes that go back to like the 1300s and then relics

supposedly from all the apostles and there's a piece of Jesus' cross, just really cool artifacts. So that's all part of like the same site, but these places were all built at different times, even though they look like perfectly in sync. And the cathedral is also really gorgeous too. Definitely worth going inside. I agree. And the baptistery is beautiful. I love the baptistery. Yeah. That's super simple,

though. I was surprised because the cathedral is so ornate. And the baptistery is just completely plain. This is where Galileo was baptized. I just like the design of it, though. It's very I don't know, it's unique. And then if you look at it from a, or if you look, I guess you can see it from below, but half of the roof is different than the other half. And it has something to do with, um, visibly it had to fit in with the rest of the skyline of Pisa. So like part of it is tiled differently to match the skyline of Pisa.

These are all little things that are coming back to me now after years of not being in pizza. I live there a year and a half. Um, and then another thing that's really, cool is March 20th. There's a couple of things about Pisa. March 25th is the Anno novo or the Ano Pizano. It's their new year. And on that very day, the sun hit something in a certain way and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the light goes through this thing that Galileo designed. I think it's an egg or something. It's in the form of an egg. And you can only

see it on March 25th, but I've never seen it. Why did they create their own new year? Well, it had to do with This is where we get into I don't know if it was I know it has to do with spring And things like that and the building of the cathedral Like the Piazza de Miracquil If you look at it from above

The tower is separate which is really unusual And it's round which is really unusual And the formation of the tower And the baptistery in the Duomo Is supposedly the formation of the constellation of Aries whereas like Notre Dame is Virgo and it usually has to do with when they started constructing. Oh, that's pretty cool.

Mm-hmm. Look into Anno Novo, Aono Pisa, I don't know, or something like that. It's March 25th, but apparently it was March 25th in Florence too. I think it has to do with an older calendar. That's so interesting. I just want to say really quick while it's on my mind that if you do want to go up the leaning tower of Pisa, which is actually a bell tower, if you were wondering what the point of that tower was.

It's the cathedral's bell tower. You have to buy a ticket for a specific time to go up and you also have to leave your bags in a locker. So we didn't know that and showed up at our time and then we had to go and leave our stuff somewhere else. So just make sure you leave your stuff in the locker room. So that was a really cool, you know, panorama being up there. But something that I thought was even cooler that my friend brought me up to, you can now walk the city walls in Pisa. at least part of it. You just pay a few euro.

I think it was like three euro or something. And so you have great views of the city. It winds around the square of miracles. And so you can take really cool photos that are not filled with other people. So yeah, top tip. It's a great thing to do when you're in Pisa. I will definitely do that next to my go. Thank you.

Yes, you are welcome. So I arrived on Monday night. And this. streets were so full of people. It was so nice to see. It definitely had like a weekend feel. We sat outside at this place called the violin and they had a good spread of food and a bottle of wine for five euro. So you can't really beat that. So that's Piazza. What was it? Piazza Dele Vetto Vallier, which I think is market. Yeah, I think that means market in Paezanne. Was it like a little

Piat, like a square that had almost like a portico at some point? Yes. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. That's where I used to like to hang out. Yeah. And this little Ford. Did you ever go there in the morning?

I did walk through once, yeah, in the morning. And yeah, there was a market there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. I like that place. Oh, and then after we were at the violin, we went to this place called SUDD. It was all after a dinner drinks that are. are popular in southern Italy.

So somebody ordered me a mandarino, which is like a limoncello, but Mandarin flavor. And when we were there, somebody said, oh, I wish I had some, we had some like contucci the biscotti to dip in. And I said,

well, hang on a second because I still had a bag. that bag in my bag. It was like a miracle. That is so cool. Yeah, they were so excited. But then we actually stayed at my friend's house in Kalchi, which is nearby pizza. And it was so nice staying with a family and having like an Italian mom take care of me.

Yeah, Italian moms are awesome. Yeah. So I didn't actually, aside from eating, having a pari-tibou, the violin. I didn't really eat out because we were eating at my friends the whole time, which was delicious. You covered the whole thing because we also went to San Gincenso, which is in the province of Livorno. And that is another town that just likes Pisa. Apparently, nobody likes Pisa except for me and the people who live there. And you like it to you now, I think. Who does me? Yeah, do you? I do like Pisa. I have a love-hate relationship with Pisa because

the time I spent there was, it was a sad time, Sarah. Your history is more complex. If you don't have an ex and Pisa, I think you would love it. Yeah, I think, you know what, I wish that I didn't have an ex and Pisa. And because when I was in Pisa, I was with a person that was 10 years older than me and all of his friends were already married, I didn't get to see much. Okay. You know what I mean?

This can be your due over. Yeah, I'm living vicariously through you But I do remember that Piazza And I totally love it Whatever the one you said that serves the V I can't remember the names of anything anymore But when you mentioned it Vetovalier

When you told me I'm in a really cool piazza having an a frittivo I imagined you in that piazza That's where I was Love it So before you dropped me off To head to Pisa we spent a night in San Vincenzo, a little beach town.

Why did you want to go there? I discovered San Vincenso. Back when I lived in Pisa, I went there, and I always liked it because it has long sandy beaches like I grew up with in North Carolina. So if I want to go to the beach and relax and actually go take walks on the beach, I like to go to San Vincenzo. And I found a great little apartment there on the beach. isn't too expensive. So whenever I have a chance I go there and kind of just get some Zen time. And I thought it would be nice.

I just, I don't know. I always assume since I like the beach that everybody else does. So I thought it would be nice for you to have a night at the beach too. I love the beach. Yeah, yeah. So basically I figured, oh, crap, that's not good. Sorry. I just knocked over a wine glass.

Uh-oh. It was, yeah, anyway. So I thought that it would just be a nice way to relax. after a lot of traveling because I was trying to squeeze a lot of stuff in that I wanted you to see. And I knew I was rushing you around and I hate rushing people. So I thought it would be a nice way to kind of unwind at the end of the trip, you know? Yeah, I really liked it. It reminded me of my hometown beach.

I say hometown. We go to a beach in Rhode Island. But it's not that far from where my family lives. But yeah, it's just like a nice Italian beach in the north. it's not like turquoise water that you would get more in the south just to set some expectations but it is a great a great place to chill yeah yeah exactly it's not um you know like the amalfi coast or anything like that but it's just a nice place it's i mean there are beautiful natural parks nearby there's barrahti there's archaeological sites there's all kinds of stuff to see if you do go

and stay for a few days or for a week. But when I go there and I have the house on the beach, I don't go anywhere because I just want to enjoy the fact that I'm on the beach, you know? Yeah. What I think about it is that it has the port. So it has like all this different, it has different areas. It has the shopping and dining area at the port and then it has another kind of downtown area. And then even walking toward those things, there's restaurants and shops.

And it isn't any kind of, it's not the kind of town that has boutique shops and things like that. It's by new means a chic beach town, but I feel like it's just an authentic town that people actually still live in in the winter too. And then our last stop was bulgary. Which was also out of season. We just like went there, did one loop around the town and then left. Because I was like, I don't know if an hour parking is going to be enough. That's what I'm thinking. I'm like, I can't believe I got parking.

Because usually when you go there, you have to walk all the way down the line of Cypress trees, you know. And I saw people walking. I remember there are people walking along the Cypress Street, so I figured it was, you know, another hop-in-day at Boghany. And then we got that parking spot, and I was all proud of myself. And I think, oh, I better set a timer so we don't stay longer than an hour. And then next thing you know, we go in there and it's like a ghost town. I think there was one place open, right? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Beautiful, charming little town. This is one that you'd probably better off waiting for things to be in season. Definitely. Oh, the other reason I chose San Bincenzo is because my original diabolical plan was to take you to the different olive oil farms on the coast. And those are the ones that were like, yeah, come on bye. We'll be here all November. And then, you know, by mid-October, when I called again, they said, oh, what are you talking about?

We've already picked everything. And so I already had in my mind that I was taking you to the... beach so I just took you anyway. Ah. So sounds like October would be a good place to go then. Yeah, because by mid-October, I would say the second week of October at the latest now, because after what happened this year, would be good because by then the prices are low on the apartments and things and there's still signs of life.

Because, yeah, I had an organic farm I wanted to bring you to that has like a whole garden that's in this, it's really cool. And they have really good olive oil that's won awards. And then there's another place that also has really good olive oil that won awards and has a vegetarian restaurant that I wanted to take you to. Do you know the names of any of these things? We can just throw them out for people for future reference. Not at the top of my head.

I can send them to you. All right. Go to postcardacademy.com, everyone. And I will put them there. And I will get my act together and remember things in future interviews. Yes, so San Pincenzo was cool. And, yeah, Italy in October, I think, is one of my favorite times of year. The weather is great.

And as you said, it can be cheaper for people to travel. It's just a wonderful time to come. I totally agree. And then there's one place that you have mentioned a few times that we didn't go to. Is it Piachenza? Ah, Pienza. Oh, Pienza. Pienza.

I also like Piacenza. Pianza is adorable. If you're going down to see Montalcino, Montepulchano, go to the wineries down there, then definitely make a stop in Pianza. And I recommend staying in Pianza or right outside of Pianza and doing day trips to all those other places. Because you could go to Siena, you could go to Montepulchano, Montalcino, Banu Vignoni, all these great hill towns. and things that you might want to see are not far from Pianza.

And Pianza is more livable. It's a hill town, but it's flat. So once you get up the hill, you don't have to do any more schlepping. Yeah. So it's very charming. Is there anything specific that you like about it? They make a whole bunch of pecorino cheese. It's one of the more famous places for pecorino in Tuscany.

And if you get lucky, when you're walking down, the main street, it smells like Pecorino. And there are some good restaurants there. There's a cool little cocktail bar that opened. Of course, the name I do not recall. I have it in a box somewhere because I saw it before I moved. Okay. Got that card somewhere.

But there's a really cool little cocktail bar that has a great view of the sunset and looks like it's a hardcore, like serious cocktail bar. Young guys from some other town that moved there. And there are two Scottish guys that opened a restaurant of which I do not remember the name, but they're in town. So if you Google PN's the Scottish guys, something will pop up. Let's go. This sounds fun. Yeah.

This is traveling with Tony. Here's the keywords, Google it. You'll figure it out. Are you in the right frame of mind where? If I said, all right, how would you spend a week or two, like if we had to put these towns that we mentioned in order? Yeah, I can do that. If we had a week or two, depending on the time of year, right? So let's say it's warm enough to go to the beach, and we're going to include the beach in Bulgutty.

I would begin in early October with PNs. Montepulciano, Montalcino, Siena, Manu Vignoni. Work my way up, maybe stop in Arezzo. I've got enough time. I worked my way up over to Florence. And then meander over to San Miniatto, to Luca, to Pisa, down to San Vincenzo,

but really because you're going to see Bodgari, which is the winemaking area. Yeah, I think in about 10 to 14 days you could see all those places. That is a lot of places, Tony. I know. Too many, maybe. We did half of those in four days, maybe. I guess, I guess.

So, okay, that's so many towns. But where should we stay then? So the first part of the trip, I would stay in Pienza. I would stay in Pianza. three nights. I would stay in Florence, two nights. And then Luca,

three nights, and down on the coast, two nights. So what is that? Two, three, two three? Five, five, it's ten nights, right? I'm not a math person. I know, I'm just throwing this all out there. I think I just give a ten-day trip. All right.

That's doable. Well, and the Truffle Festival is in November, I think the last three weeks of November. So you have to choose. Do you want to go to olive oil harvest, wine harvest, truffle? You can't do everything unless you stayed for three months like Tony and I. Yeah. Or just move here without any conflict at all. Like I did.

I had no plan when I got here. I would say if I had to skip, I hate to say the truffel. festival. I think it's getting more and more commercial every year. So you could skip that. I mean, you could still see the town. You don't have to go just for the truffle festival. But there are tons of other food festivals to go to. So if you don't get to go to that one, there's plenty of other opportunities. But final thoughts on that truffle festival. Yeah. I can't remember at this point if we talked about the wine tasting that they had there, but that was a great surprise. Yeah.

I actually, the wine that I just knocked over is the one that I bought from that guy. Is that a common thing at Sagras, these little fairs, where you can just pay 10 euro for a glass and just taste all you want? Honestly, this is like kind of a, this is almost like a hybrid between a sagra and a fiera. So like your normal sagra is usually not this well organized and not this How can I see it? There isn't this much variety This is more like a fair with a saga You know what I mean? Yeah

So like your average saga like there's a truffle My God the wine glass I should just move it It's empty I don't know why it's still in the room Okay There's another truffle festival Juffle Saga in September and that one is not far from Florence

you can take a bus there you can take the 14 bus it's a Gironi and that one is full on Saga you're under a tent you're eating at tables there's a number on the table you know there are I don't think there's any real plates there might be it's mostly you know paper tablecloths and everything and you get seated with random people and it's all very quick and

easy, but the food is really good. And usually a sagra is like that. And then when you get lucky, you'll get one like the one in San Mnayato, where there's also places to buy things and, you know, all kinds of stuff going on. But I think that's also because it's such a seasonal, seasonal product. You know what I mean? Yeah. So when you say Fiera, you mean like food fair, where it's like stores. Yeah. And then there's one more that I discovered this summer. They do twice. They do it. I want to say I was there in June. I'd have to look at my Instagram, but I think they'd do it once in June or July and then again in August.

And it's the Sagra del Torrello, which Tortellie are usually potato-filled ravioli. And they do the tortellie with butter and sage. And they are truly handmade. Usually when you go to these places and they say it's a Sagre de Tortello, you get there and you can tell they went to Sam's Club or whatever, the Costco

But here it's called Metro and they're pre-made and you're like, why did I bother? This place really makes them by hand and they're incredible. They're probably three inches by three inches. So you only get maybe three or four on a plate. And they have them with different sauces. You can get them with ragu, but the butter and sage is just perfect. And the feeling's perfect and delicate. And the thing I love is there's a pre-sagra situation going on because it's under like a pineta.

This is not far from where we were in San Vincenzo, it's in Donor-O-Ratico. And they have all these different stands set up that do fried dough and like prosceco. And so you can walk around while you're waiting for the actual saga to start and already kind of gnaw on things and have a prosceco. Tell me again when and where. Let me look at my Instagram. I know one is in 17th of June.

So yeah, mid-June and mid-August. Donoratico, and it is by far the best. I think if I have to give an overall vote on a point system for ambience, food, organizational skills, seating arrangement, and just the whole package, this one wins the prize. All right. So people have food options, food and drink options, no matter what time they come to Italy. These are all sprinkled around.

Yeah. And I mean, usually these food festivals and fairs are. when weather is good. So I would say from probably from March until November at the most. Yeah, those are the best times to come. All right, Tony, I think it's bedtime.

Yeah. We are just two swinging single ladies. Getting ready to go paint the town red. They're already in my pajamas. Yeah, I have to take Teddy out for another walk. All right, well, thanks again for chatting. Yeah, it was great. Bye, Tony.

See you Thursday. Ciao. Ciao. I think the biggest takeaway here is that Tony said I'm a good house guest. Would you like me to come live with you? Maybe we can go on a road trip. Email me at sarah at postcardacademy.com and let me know. Thank you for listening to this episode.

If you like what you heard, please subscribe and share this episode with a friend. That is the best way to support and grow this show. Once again, you can find more information on this show at postcardacademy.com. That's all for now. Thanks for listening and have a beautiful week wherever you are. Also, could you hear my neighbors a minute ago? No. Oh my gosh.

It was like 40 Marlon Brando's throwing a party over there. It was so loud. Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free conversation sheet sheet with. simple formulas that you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you're in a meeting or just talking with friends. Download it at sarahmicatel.com slash blank no more.