Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - Montevideo, Uruguay: South American Style with a European Flair

Episode Date: October 29, 2021

Ever thought about visiting Uruguay? This small nation between Argentina and Brazil isn’t well known to people outside the region, and Karen Higgs is trying to change that.Home to the world’s longest carnival — it lasts 40 days each year — Uruguay is a laid back country with a European flair. You’ll walk around plenty of colonial and art deco buildings as candombe music drums in the streets. You’ll also find beaches, wineries, and a burgeoning culinary scene in Uruguay, one of the most progressive countries in the world.And, if you can work remotely or are retired or have your own money, you don’t even need a visa to live and work there. So why aren’t we there already??In today’s episode, Karen is going to tell us how to become an expat in Uruguay, as well as give us her best tips on what to eat, drink, and do in her adopted hometown of Montevideo, a place, she says, that has become quite vegan-friendly.  Karen, originally from Wales, has lived in Uruguay since 2000 and is the unofficial tourism ambassador for the country. In fact, her website is a mashup of the words guru and Uruguay: Guru'Guay and is a great resource for anyone thinking of traveling or moving to the country. She also wrote The Guru’Guay Guide to Uruguay and The Guru’Guay Guide to Montevideo.Show notes at sarahmikutel.comEnjoy!❤️Hello! I'm your host, Sarah Mikutel. But the real question is, who are you? Where are you now and where do you want to be? Can I help you get there?Visit sarahmikutel.com to learn how we can work together to help you achieve more peace, happiness, and positive transformation in your life.Book your Enneagram typing session by going to sarahmikutel.com/typingsessionDo you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

Welcome to Live Without Borders, a travel and wellness show for expats, the expat curious, and globally minded citizens of the world. We are the travelers, the culturally curious, the experiences and not things kind of people. And we know that freedom is about more than getting on a plane. It's about becoming the most heroic versions of ourselves, which is why on this podcast you will hear insider travel secrets, inspiring expat stories, and advice on how to live abroad. but you will also hear episodes that will help give you the clarity, focus, and skills you need to create a life that will set your soul on fire. I am your host, Sarah Micatel, a certified clarity coach trained in the Enneagram, and I first moved abroad on my own at age 18, and I have been permanently enjoying life in Europe since 2010. If you are ready to make some big moves in your life

and want my help moving from someday to seize the day, visit live without borderspodcast.com. Have you ever thought about visiting Uruguay? This small nation between Argentina and Brazil isn't that well known to people outside the region, and Karen Higgs is trying to change that. Home to the world's longest carnival, it lasts 40 days each year. Uruguay is a laid-back country with a European flair. You will find plenty of colonial and art deco buildings, and hear condombe music in the streets. You will also find beaches, wineries, a burgeoning culinary scene. And Uruguay is one of the most progressive countries in the world. Karen named some highlights saying that Uruguay is the only nation in the world where all children have a laptop as part of national policy

and free primary school has been compulsory for almost 150 years. The university system is free. Uruguay is a green energy world leader. It has the world's cleanest air. Uruguay is the most gay-friendly country in Latin America and it passed marriage equality quite a while ago. And women there had the right to vote before the United States and many European countries. And you can also get really good affordable health care on demand. And if you work remotely or are retired or have your own money, you don't even need a visa to live and work there. So why aren't we there already? In today's episode, Karen is going to tell us how to become an expat in Uruguay, as well as give us her best tips on what to eat and experience in her adopted hometown of Montevideo, a place she says, that has become quite vegan friendly.

Karen is originally from Wales and she has lived in Uruguay since 2000 and she's kind of the unofficial tourism ambassador for the country. In fact, her website is a mashup of the words guru and Uruguay, Guruguay. And that site is a great resource for anyone thinking of traveling or moving to the country. Karen also wrote the Guru Guai Guide to Uruguay and the Guru Guay Guide to Montevideo. Okay, enjoy the episode. Welcome, Kieran. Thank you so much for joining me today. Where are you from and how did you end up in Uruguay? Okay, well, I'm actually British.

I was born and bred in the South Wales valleys. But I left there when I was 18 to go to university. And the short story is that after I graduated, I decided to go backpacking in Latin American and learn how to speak Spanish. ended up meeting my husband in Costa Rica, who is Argentinian. He had been backpacking up and I was backpacking down. And then we did lots of traveling together. And we were actually living in Washington, D.C., and we had our son, who was five at the time, when we felt really strongly that we wanted to get back to South America. And so we started casting around. And Uruguay came on the map. I was offered a job here. and we thought, hey, that sounds really interesting. And I came down to check it out in August, which is our winter here, and it was absolutely freezing. But all the same, I just fell in love with it.

And I went back to D.C. And I said to SIRG, it's exactly what we're looking for for us. And, you know, let's go. And so, you know, we landed here at the turn of the millennium, January 2000. I would like to ask you a question about, how you found your job in Uruguay. Oh, sure. So, yeah, so how did you go about finding a job in Uruguay?

Okay, well, I was working in web development at that point, and so I was on a list serve called the DC Webgirls. And there were all sorts of interesting opportunities that would arise for jobs. And the job that took me here was actually advertised on that mailing list. Okay, amazing. When I read the description, they were looking for a web developer that was bilingual English and Spanish and that would be prepared to be based and they listed the countries and there was Uruguay and there was Argentina there. You know, I just basically, when I read it, I said, oh my God, unless there's an insider, I'm going to get that job. I love it. So your blog is called, tell us what it's called. It's called Uruguay, because the joke is I'm the guru. of Uruguay for my English-speaking readers about Uruguay. And how did you go from doing web stuff to becoming the guru of Uruguay?

Well, actually, I was thinking, like, the reason that I was so excited to come on your podcast, you appeal to people that are looking to make major changes in their lives. And I always loved people that had multiple careers that did multiple things that made major changes in their lives. And so I've done a lot. I've made a lot of changes. When I was in my 20s, I was in English as a foreign language teacher because it allowed me to travel, but to have a decent wage at the time. And then I moved into web development in my 30s. And then I moved into tourism in my 40s, now based in Uruguay.

And then, well, now I work primarily in content as a kind of unofficial ambassador for Uruguay, I guess. You're an ambassador for us today. So tell us exactly where you're based. Okay, so I'm based in Montevideo, which is the capital of Uruguay. Uruguay is a small, well, it's actually geographically, size-wise, it's not a small country. It's actually slightly larger than England and Wales put together, or it's larger than Florida in the States. But because it just has three million people and it's tucked between two South American giants, we've got Argentina to the west and Brazil to the east. So even Uruguayans, some Uruguayans refer to the country as El Paisito, the little country.

But the reality is not that small, especially compared to European countries. What does the postcard look like? Is there anything that we would recognize or that is famous from that area? From Uruguay. No, I don't, there's not a, there should be, you know. there should be and everybody should know that we have a promenade. It's actually that goes in Montevideo itself. It stretches 25 kilometers unbroken. And it's actually the longest sidewalk in the world. But not by far.

And not only is it the longest sidewalk, it's actually next to the river or what the Uruguayans refer to as the sea. because at this point the river plate is so wide, it's like 140 kilometers to get to the other side. So it really does, many days, the water looks just like the sea. And that's a record breaker. But because Uruguayans are very, they characterize themselves as low profile and I'm assuming. And so it's never actually, they've never actually promoted that. And they don't, they really don't promote it. They really should because it's an absolutely beautiful

promenade. Let's imagine that I'm going to come and visit you for a week and you're going to take me all around. What are we going to see? And let me get my spelling or my pronunciation, right, Montevideo. What are we going to be doing? What are like some must have experiences? Well, Montevideo is where half of the population of Uruguay lives. So it's a capital city. And so you'll actually, I'll meet you at the airport. The airport is just 30 to 40 minutes away from the center of the city. And it's a lovely little airport. It's never busy.

So it's just great. You just jump off the plane and we'll jump in the car. And then we'll drive. And most of that drive will be along the wonderful rambler next to the river plate. I always think that it's one of the most lovely. drives in from an airport into a major city of any in the world, really. And so you drive along the Rambler, which is curving and you've got the river plate to the left of you. So just this enormous river which changes colour. Sometimes it looks just like a brown river with lots of

sediment because it's been travelling thousands of miles through South America. And sometimes, because it's an estuary at this point, it looks just like the sea. I mean, I took videos in the summertime and there were currents that came through. We're like, this must have come from Brazil. It's so beautiful. It was absolutely gorgeously bluey green. It was lovely. So you've got that and you drive along. There are a lot of buildings which are Art Deco. In fact, one Art Deco expert told me that he thinks that beyond New York, it's the city with the most art deco anywhere in the world. But besides that, what's interesting, he pointed out to me, is that the art deco is spread all over the city. It's not like you just go to one neighborhood and there's all the art deco.

No, anywhere you walk, any neighborhood, you're going to see vestiges of this lovely period. Can we go into any of these art deco buildings? Well, that's the cool thing because I think one thing that everybody comments about that makes the difference compared to other countries is that in Uruguay, it's really kind of like, and in Montevideo as well, you're in a capital, but there's a feeling that it's like being in a small town. And so you get that small town treatment as well. So what a lot of travelers that come here tell me is they are. outside a building, you know, they're looking and they're going, oh my God, look at this. They're admiring the wrought iron entryway. And suddenly, the door person will come out and say, do you want to go and have a look inside? You know, and often like, well, obviously, you know, it might be in Spanish and the person doesn't understand Spanish, but, you know, the gestures are enough. And they'll go and they'll zip inside and have a look. So there's that kind of treatment. It's

wonderful. But also the museums here in Montevideo itself, there are a lot of museums, and many of them are in old colonial buildings from the founding of Montevideo, which is in the 1820s. And so a lot of those buildings have beautiful courtyards. And because most of the museums are owned by the local government, they're free to go in. So you can actually go in, have a walk around, especially if it's hot, you might want to sit down on a bench, and then just soak in the atmosphere and then head out again. So which museum specifically should we see? I think the Romantic Museum is lovely, and also the decorative arts museum is lovely. Both of those are in the old city. Most of the museums are in the old city, and so they are both in

colonial buildings, the old residences of wealthy merchants that would have been part of the founding of Montevideo, because Montevideo was founded initially as a, it was a fort and a defense, and it was not exactly the battlegrounds, but the factions of the Spanish and the Portuguese and the British during the Napoleonic Wars. All of them were trying to. to take control of Montevideo at different points because that was where you controlled the mouth to the entry of the river plate. So a lot of these museums are in these lovely old buildings that are from that era. And because I think there's, you know, so little is changed in so, in, people say to me all the time, you know, the one thing that I love about, about Uruguay

is that it feels that change happens very slowly and it really does. So, there's quite a nostalgic air. It's almost like being stepping back in time somewhat, especially when you go into the interior. So some of these museums, it's like I said, they don't have great signage. Often they might not have any signage at all, let alone in English. You know, they don't even have signage in Spanish. So what you're doing is you're going in and you're looking around and you're just kind of like getting transported back briefly into a different period of time. It's really interesting. Tell me more about some must-have experience, like the specific experiences that we should have if we're in your area.

I would say that really it's advisable. If you're coming for holiday to Uruguay, then I would say that you want to spend at least two or three weeks. For a really long time Montevideo and Uruguay have been seen as the kind of, you know, a one or two-night start. on a holiday to Argentina or Brazil, and it's really worth so much more than that. The thing is it's not easy to get a handle on and there's not been that much written about it, especially not. I mean, I'm the first author selling books internationally

who actually lives here, you know, and so that's something that I've really been, and it's not an easy city and country to get a handle on as well, because there's not been that much written about it. And so much is about the culture and the society, which is super interesting. So I really go into a lot of those details in the books. So I would say that what you want to do, say if you came for two weeks,

then you'd want to spend at least three nights in Montevideo. And what you want to do is really slow down. You want to have time to go to the eclectic historic cafes. You want to have time to go to the old antique bookshops and the antique stores. the old city itself is, you know, if you don't stay there, which I think is a great place to stay, because you can walk absolutely everywhere there. Then there are a lovely romantic plasas from the colonial period where you just sit and watch people go by. And then there's really some great gastronomy now.

It's interesting because the first edition of the Montevideo guide I brought out in 2006. And at the time, I said, you know, the ingredients here are fabulous. There's a big focus on beef, massive, like Argentina in that way. And, you know, I would say, you know, Uruguayans, they like a good piece of beef and a side salad and that's it, you know, they're happy with that. And there's not a great deal of adventurous cuisine. And the great thing is, is that in the last, well, since I wrote that book, so the last six to seven years, things have really changed. There's a whole new bunch of people in their mid-20s, mid-30s. They've traveled a lot. They've lived abroad and they've come back and they realize how good the ingredients are here.

And also what they're doing is they're looking at the cuisine here and they're saying, okay, you know, like let's put twists on that. Or let's really, you know, we'll make a chivito, which is the famous. steak sandwich here is this massive gigantic steak sandwich with piled with ham and cheese and lettuce and tomato and olives and fried egg and things. So they're like, let's do that, but, and then they'll add a twist to it. So there are lots of interesting options now, gastronomy-wise in Montevideo that in my second edition of the Montevideo guide, it was like, wow, I had to totally rewrite this whole chapter now. because there's so much more on offer.

What can vegetarians eat? That's a great question. And what is really cool is that in a lot of the places that are not the traditional places necessarily, but in a lot of the places that I recommend, there's always going to be at least one vegetarian dish. There are going to be vegan dishes as well. There's quite a vegan movement going on here. You know, vegan ice cream and things are pretty readily available now in Monteveralien.

video itself. Are there like traditional vegetarian dishes that we can get there? Like, what would that be? One that I normally recommend, like if you go to a parisiana, which is the name for a place that does mainly grilled dishes, which is the traditional thing here. That's what, that's how the gauchers used to cook in the countryside, you know, over, over wooden coals with a grill. And so those parisada restaurants, something there that you can ask for, which is super tasty. is a sweet pepper, which has been they're large. They slice them open and they stuff them with cheese and olives, for example. That's really delicious. So it sounds like Uruguay and also it's capital city are like pretty chill places. Are we just sort of like hanging out and

eating and checking out some galleries? What else? A lot of it, yeah, is that you do need to slow right down because that's how Uruguans live. And I've got to like make sure that you realize, that this is not a tropical country. Now, we are in a temperate zone, so we have the four seasons, and it gets quite cold in the wintertime, and it gets quite hot in the summertime. And people don't sleep a siesta in the city. But the reality is that when you come here to hang out, yeah, sure, I mean, you're going to want to get up, go have breakfast.

And then you've got the Rambler. Montevillans live the Rambler. They absolutely live it. And also there are beaches here too. I didn't mention that. That we have 10 beaches strung out all the way along. Now, I wouldn't recommend coming to Montevideo for a beach holiday as such, because we have amazing beaches, just an hour's drive away, and we can talk about those more separately. But definitely, especially if you come in spring or summer, you're going to want to head to the beach as well. But the Rambler that I was telling about, this promenade, Uruguayans totally live that day and night. It's a place to go and hang out in the evening as well. And there's a lot of skating and biking there. So that's something that's really fantastic.

Then lunch and then after that, I would definitely recommend a see. because you're going to, you're going to want to go out in the evening to check out the amazing live music scene that is here. What kind of music will we be enjoying? There's all sorts of music here. I think that what's interesting in Uruguay is that there are, there's everything from folklore. So that's, you know, a very folkloric guitar-based music from the countryside, right to Uruguayan. rock as well. But the one type of music that is native to Uruguay is a type of music referred to as candombie, or it's actually, it's music and dance as well. So Montevideo was, unfortunately, a slave trade port in its past before the independence, with the first enslaved Africans arriving around

1750. They were trafficked there by the British and by the Spanish. And there was so much traffic that at one point over a third of Montevideo's population was actually of African descent. And they were all crowded into two neighborhoods, one called Barrio Sur and the other called Palermo. Now, the drumming rights that these Africans brought with them was initially referred to as tangos or tambos. And then the term morphed into the word candombie. And they're the first register of that word around 1830. Well, that you can still hear today

when you are out and about on the streets in the evenings as well. You will hear the sound of the drums and you'll have a group of drummers going along the street accompanied by dancers who dance certain steps as well. And in those groups are called comparsas. They're like troops of drummers and dancers. And in Montevideo, it's really interesting because they're made up of people nowadays of any background, race or age or social class. And Camember has actually become so. ingrained into society that, you know, you've got pop songs that or rock songs that incorporate

Camdome. And then you've got the more traditional art form that's now become part of our carnival culture here. And carnival happens in from the end of January to the beginning of March. I'll talk about that in a minute because it's the longest carnival in the world, apparently. but you will hear these candombe groups or comparsas as they're called going out to practice in different neighborhoods any night of the week. Where can we make sure we can definitely hear them? Is there like a specific place that we can go for this music? Well, the interesting thing is that in any neighborhood that you're in, especially if you go

to the old city, these two neighborhoods that I mentioned to you, Palermo, and. and Barrio Sur. There's another neighbourhood as well called Parque Rodo, which is a lovely place to watch the sun go down, actually, with the beach there. There are definitely comparsas out, you know, each and every night. But I would say that a nice one is that there's an all-woman comparsa called La Melasa. And they go out, as it's called, as they refer to them going out of the evening. they go out to rehearse every Sunday evening in Parque, Role. They meet at about 5 o'clock in the evening on a Sunday. On the corners of the streets, they're called Laura Mueller,

is the name of the street. And, oh my goodness, what's the cross street? Pablo de Maria is the other cross street. We can write this down after for your listeners. And I have this on the website as well. But there's so you go. and it's a super interesting ritual that you'll see because these drums have leather tops

and they need to get tense so that they sound really good when they're hit. So the comparso will light a fire on the street and then the drums will be laid down with the leather tops towards the fire so that it tenses the leather. and then when the leather is tense and ready to go, then at that point everybody, in the meantime, everybody's milling around,

people will go to a corner store, they'll buy a litre bottle of beer to drink or some wine, there'll be some people smoking because marijuana is legal here in Uruguay. And then once the leather's tensed, people put on the drums and then they start off. And what happens is the drummers process down the street accompanied by the dancers and everybody else accompanying just like walks to the side and behind. There's a bit of an etiquette around that. So it's important to watch and observe.

In my Montevideo book, actually, I go into detail in the etiquette so that, you know, you don't commit to faux par or anything. And then they accompany the drummers and they will drum and dance for, you know, maybe 45 minutes and then they'll stop. Take a break. Are you talking about, are you talking about carnival or any time they're practicing? This is actually the rehearsal. This is a rehearsal. And so this happens every, in the case of the la melasse, this is every Saturday of the week, of the month. So yeah, so it's super cool. So you don't actually need to be here for carnival to be able to experience. It sounds like it's the town entertainment hanging out with these guys in the weekends. You know, some people love it and some people not so much, especially when they live on the root.

But it's definitely, I mean, I know. You'll see any Uruguayan when they hear the sound of Kandomi, the beat is da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Da, da, da. And like, as soon as a Uruguayan hears that, they like perk up, you know, and you can see them there. It's something. It's something else. So you mentioned that they're kind of reserved there. What else should we know about the culture and maybe any customs that are interesting or that we should know about before we visit? I think most people feel that it's very, that it's very familiar on one hand, because Uruguay is quite a developed country.

You know, we've got really lots of really modern facilities here. And so I think that, you know, you'll feel quite at home. Maybe one thing I would say is that friendship here is very important. So just, you know, keeping in contact with people once you've met them, finding out how they're doing, making sure that you say thanks after getting together. Those kinds of things, I think, are really appreciated here. How does one make friends when they move down there? And like, let's say you're an English speaker. You don't know Spanish yet. Number one, are there like Spanish schools where we can go and learn? And also like, do people speak English down there?

That's a great question. Because I think that Uruguay is a great place to come and live and learn Spanish as well. Because people are so friendly and accommodating. There are language schools. A language school that's in the old city that does a really good job is called Academia Uruguay. so Uruguay Academy, and they're right on the colonial square. They offer classes, you know, like a full schedule kind of all morning, five days a week, and they have excursions and cultural activities for their students.

So they would take you to see, you know, one of these condombe comparses, for example, they would take you to the local tango bar. But I would say that a lot of people now, you know, they're worried, if they come, oh, and I don't speak Spanish, how will I get by? I would say that 10 years ago, it would have been more difficult, but nowadays, the generation that are in their mid-20s, for example, they grew up watching Friends on TV. Friends has taught the Globe English.

I swear that everybody, I met me who's not a native English speaker. They learned through runs. Exactly. And so they didn't want to wait for the version with subtitles. titles to come, they would just download it and watch it in English. And also, they were also a generation that wanted to read Harry Potter when it first came out and not wait for that humongous volume to get translated. And so there's really, there are really a lot of people around now that, you know, do speak English. But I think that what's so nice here is that even because people are

so tolerant of travellers, especially English-speaking English-speak. speaking travellers. And the reason that they are in part so tolerant may be compared to other countries where there are a lot more travellers from Europe or from the US is because here, I think these numbers are quite staggering. Just in 2019, so the last year of figures before the pandemic, the number of people that came to visit Uruguay from Europe and the states were a quarter of a million people, that's all. So one in ten of visitors that came to Uruguay. So you're still quite a novelty. That's a nice feeling. It's definitely a nice feeling. So who is Uruguay great for? And maybe who is it not great for? Now, are you talking about for traveling or for living?

I guess let's talk about living because anyone can, well, yeah, let's living. Okay. I think that, and one thing that I wanted to talk to you about specifically is I know that a lot of people now, and especially a lot of your listeners, are looking at countries that are offering digital nomad visas, right? Well, they won't find Uruguay on the list. But the reason that you won't find Uruguay on the list is that you don't actually need a visa to be able to come here and work. When you enter the country, you come in on a 90-day visa, and then if you actually are working as a digital nomad, so your source of income comes from outside of Uruguay, then there is absolutely no reason to actually have to obtain any permission in Uruguay to be able to work. In fact, anybody that works in Uruguay that earns income abroad where there's benefits of the services are consumed outside of Uruguay, you don't pay tax on that. So that's actually ideal for people from the US, for example, who I know do need to pay taxes. Here they wouldn't have an additional burden at all.

And so what happens is that you come in on your 90-day visa, and what's always happened before this is that you get to the end of your 90-day. and you say, okay, I need to renew, I'm sorry, not visa, but your entry permit, your stamp in your passport. So you say, okay, I need to renew. I'm coming up to my 90 days. I think I'll take a ferry across to Argentina, which is two and a quarter hours, and then I'll come back. And it could even be the same day if you wanted, but of course, what most people do is they go over. They hang out in Buenos Aires for a few days for a long weekend. And then they come back and their new 90 days starts again. I like the sound of that. It is super, super easy. Now, I talk to the investment agency that promotes imports imports and exports here in Uruguay. They're called Uruguay 21 and asked them, you know, if they had anything to add to that situation. And they said that no, but that if somebody, for example, did want to come here as a digital nomad and they didn't want to have to leave on a. a periodic basis, then they could just write an email, and I've got the email here, to fast

track at Uruguay XXI, so that's like 21 in Roman numerals, dot Gub.U.B.U.Y. And you can solicit a temporary residence for two years, and they will facilitate it for you. They're really open for people to come here and work. So if we were to go there, one, like, what's the cost of living? And also how do you go about finding a place to live? Well, you were asking me who shouldn't come here as well, or who was Uruguay a good place for, right? And I talked about digital nomads because you've got your income sorted out and your income is coming from abroad. Now, I would never recommend coming to Uruguay to look for work. And that is because the pay here is relatively low. It's certainly not to be able to, the average wage is about $700 a month. And if we put this in balance, it's very

easy to get residency here in Uruguay. You need to, on my website, I've actually got an article about it, and you can see the list of documents that you need to get together, and you need to have a clean conduct with Interpol, for example. And then beyond that, you just need to be able to show that you have a steady income. And there are, that income is not set in stone, but it's around a thousand five hundred dollars per person. And I think that that really makes sense because with a thousand five hundred dollars, you can actually, you can rent a place, you can travel a bit. People in Montevideo move around on public transport or they walk because it's really easy to get around. And to buy a car here is super expensive. And so that's

the kind of a simple lifestyle, but having a little. lots of things to do as well. Like I didn't say to you that going out in the evening here to eat, you're talking about maybe $25 for a three-course meal with wine per person. And a ticket to go and see a show costs about $10. So you really could have a very nice quality of life as a single person for that amount of money, I would say. Yeah. So it's nice to hear about the public. transport. So if I were going to come and like hang out for a few weeks, could I get around without having a car? Like let's say I want to go to the beaches. If you're staying in Montevideo, yes. And if you went to one or two beaches you could. If you wanted to travel around, I definitely

recommend a car. But one thing I wanted to mention to you, and this is related to like an expense here. Uruguay is a small, has a very small population. So it has a very small market, which means that there's not a great deal of choice here. And anything that's imported is quite expensive. That's why cars are so expensive because they slap a lot of duty on them. So for somebody that's planning to move here, at least for a time as a digital nomad, I definitely recommend that, you know, you bring all of your devices with you, you know, your phone, your laptop, etc.

And you also bring anything like quality clothing, sports equipment that you want. All those and those kind of personal items, anybody here that lives in Uruguay, we always buy that stuff when we go abroad because the choice here is really small, really limited, and it tends to be really expensive.

But you're going to find other areas like really well developed, like for example, with medicines, you know, like bring a supply with you for a couple of months, but then you're going to be able to find your equivalent here, probably not the brand, but you'll find the equivalent here, and you'll be able to sort that out. Same thing with banking, you're going to find banking really

quite, you know, quite sophisticated and ATMs here, funnily enough, dispatch both dollars and pesos. How about healthcare? What is that like? Health care is really good. I mean, again, it's a small country. So, you know, if you had something super rare, then what would, you know, then that could be problematic. But in general, it's really good. You can get healthcare with a private, company here for about $60 a month plus with $20 for dental and $10 for emergency service, which means that actually a doctor could come to your house in the middle of the night on a weekend if you wanted. I love it.

And you can actually sign up for those because some people wonder if, you know, if you've got a passport, if you can sign up, you can just go in and sign up with your credit card for those services. Very cool. All right. You mentioned beaches. I have to hear more about the beaches we need to go to. We've got to talk about that good stuff, right?

Because when I was in D.C., the one thing that I missed was the fact that it was quite difficult to get out of the city, especially to go to a lovely beach. But here in Uruguay, we have got, well, we've got beaches in the city, but then we've got lovely beaches like 40 minutes away by car, an hour away, by bus. the beaches that are closest along the coast. This is along the coast towards Brazil. So we're talking about several hundred kilometers of beach there. The beaches that are closest to Montevideo, those are the ones that are more frequented by Uruguayans. So they tend to be busier maybe on weekends and deserted during the week. But if you go then a little further along to Maldon now,

which is about two hours away, that's a very well-established area for tourism. In fact, we were saying that very few tourists that come to Uruguay are from Europe and from the North America. But Uruguay has been on the map for tourism for the last 100 years with Argentinians who absolutely love to come on holiday. And so the area around a town called Punta del Esau, has been a kind of tourism hotspot for Argentinians, and they're quite sophisticated. So it's quite, you know, it's an area with high rises and quite sophisticated offer. That's about two hours away from Montevideo. You can get there by bus.

It's quite difficult then to get around because everything is very spread out. So I would tend to go, if I go along the coast, then I might, to that area, I might get a car. Also, the hotels there tend to be more expensive, especially in the high season. Then further away, so three to five hours away by bus or by car to the east, between, I'm sorry, just before you reach the Brazilian border, then that is the Department of Rocha. And Rocha is where the wildest, most deserted beaches are. So they're the kind of place that was discovered in the 90s by Argentinian backpackers, where there were Uruguayans that used to go there before a lot of students, etc., would go there. So it's a more hippie vibe there.

But it's definitely becoming, there are definitely more, there's more infrastructure nowadays in those places. And it's a wonderful place to go for somebody that just wants to really kind of kick back. and enjoy nature. I was going to say get offline. But the reality is that Uruguay has really, really excellent internet infrastructure. And actually has, we didn't talk about this, but as a country, Uruguay has been very progressive for the last 150 years, which has meant that there's been free, compulsory, obligatory, primary school education for the last 150 years.

University is still free nowadays. Women had the vote before countries in Europe and divorce was legalized in 1907. There's a complete separation of church and state in Uruguay and that happened in 1917. And all this was thanks to a very progressive president who was known as Bajé. and Bajet was quite an advanced thinker for his day. So he was somebody that pushed through a lot of this legislation. So even nowadays, I would say that Uruguay still has a lot of the reliability and the stability of Uruguay,

which is in a continent that has a lot of conflict, you know, that's the reputation often. And, you know, Uruguay is quite an oasis there. The economist has run a democracy index since 2006, I think. And Uruguay's always been very well ranked in that as a full democracy. And last year, it ranked as the – it was the best ranked in Latin America. The same thing. You know, we've also – here, Uruguay is the only country in the world that has adopted fully the one laptop purchase. Child initiative and we have internet infrastructure all around the country. So when you're at the

beach, you can still get a good internet connection. That was a long way of saying that. Wow. No, I mean, it's cool to hear all of this. Why do you think Uruguay is such a hidden gem? You mean how people haven't heard about it before? Well, yeah, it sounds like, especially for like nomads and expats, it sounds like it's a pretty cool place to spend some time. Well, you know what? It's because so little has been written about it. I mean, I know that when I was backpacking myself several decades ago, none of the guidebooks really talked about Uruguay. And because so much of what Uruguay has to offer, you need to spend time here and learn about it. Like I said at the beginning, it's about the culture, it's about the society, it's about the people. Then in that case, it's not easy. If you're,

if you're a book author and you're, you know, you're whipping through, you're not really going to get much of a sense of that, which is why I felt that when I wrote my book, somebody needed to start to write about this and about what, you know, what's been happening here. I think during the, like around 2010, Uruguay did get on the map at that point because of the progressive legislation that there had been. There were a bunch of like, there was marriage equality was on the books, came on the books in 2013 and there are very progressive trans laws that were put into place in the late 2000s. Also, you know, marijuana was legalized. So I remember I received, you know, a journalist from the Wall Street Times and from other places coming and checking the country out. And they were like, you know,

wow, this is, this is really something that we had no idea about. So there was this brief glimmer, but it's really, it's something, it's a country that I think. It's a country that I think. think that some people that follow these kinds of progressive legislation, you know, they might say, hey, you know, they're aware of the country, but it's not broadly known, that's for sure. Yeah, I subscribe to Scott's cheap flights and had him on the podcast. Oh, I listened to it. That was amazing, amazing tips. Yeah, but I'm thinking, like, I don't know if I've ever seen Uruguay on there. So is it easy to get a flight there from, let's say, the U.S. That's where a lot of listeners are from. Well, it's going to let's see. At the moment, it's difficult to know, right,

because we are just coming out of the pandemic. And so a lot of flights were canceled, but we'll be coming back now. Airlines that come direct from the States, there's American Airlines. They'll be starting up again at the end of the year. And they fly from Miami. And also at the moment, there's an old airline that's resurfaced, like during the pandemic called Eastern Airlines is coming from the States as well. But what a lot of expats tend to use are the Latin American airlines that, for example, Copa, which goes through Panama or Avianca, which goes through Bogota. And they, they tend to be really, really good services. Oh, Latam, you know, going through Chile or through Brazil.

And then from Europe, you've also got Iberia and Air Europe as well. Those come direct from Spain, from Madrid to Montevideo. So in general, if we're coming from the States, I would definitely recommend looking at a Latin American airline because they may have a stopover, but it's all very efficient. and the additional time may be just an hour longer. And the service is really good and much more frequent than American Airlines, for example. Before I get to our lightning round of your adopted home city, I wanted to ask, is there like a wine region that we should check out?

There is, there is. And the great thing is that if you're just in Montevideo, then 80% of the wineries are in a 30-mile radius of Montevideo. That's handy. That's very handy. There's also a great region, which is on the west coast, very close to Argentina. That's called Carmel. And Carmelo has a bunch of little wineries there.

That's a nice way to come actually from, if you were coming from Buenos Aires, there's a little ferry that comes across from a port called El Tigre, and you take this lovely little, it takes several hours and it will drop you off in Carmelo. And then you can take a bus, for example, that's like a three-hour bus ride to get to Montevideo after that. But Carmel is super sweet to drive around. But I do, I mean, I love the wineries in Uruguay because they are, well, they're just like Uruguayans are. They usually, they tend to be run by the owner, so you'll meet the owner. The wine tastings are very generous.

The pores are very generous. And whereas in other countries, you know, you might zip through a bunch in one day, I tend to say, just do one a day because they are so leisurely. Again, we're going back to that, right? It's kind of like you need to take things leisurely here. Just kind of let the atmosphere soak into you. One thing I would say is anybody that's heard about Uruguayan wines tends to have heard about Tanat, which is the big grape here.

It's a big red, fruity grape. and it's true that one out of every three bottles of wine in Uruguay is a tanat. But there are some amazing new varieties as well coming through that you may not have tried elsewhere and they are really, really delicious here in Uruguay. There's one called Marcellan, which I totally love, which is a cross between Cabernet Sauvignon and Garnacha. And also Alberino, which is another, it's a white from the,

the grapes are from the north of Spain, Galicia, the same area. Wow, really, they'll knock your socks off. I think a lot of people say, oh, you know, Tanat and it's amazing. But wine, the wine experts are saying, yeah, the Tanat is great, but you've got to look at these other new varieties that Uruguayan winemakers are going for, which are really quite adventurous. Oh, well, give us one or two vineyards that we have to go to. Okay. Well, I would say that one would be, again, a woman. run woman-owned winery called Artisaner, which means craftswoman, artisaner. And another one that I like is called Los Nadius, and that's actually in Montevideo itself. So you can get there, you know, by cab or Uber or something. Very nice, yeah, because I don't want to drink and drive

on my little wine tastings. Is there any other region of Uruguay that you want to touch on? Yeah, I would like to mention what Uruguayans refer to as Uruguay Profundo or Deep Uruguay. And that's basically the interior of the country. And it's 95% of Uruguay. It's, you know, it's the interior. It's away from the coast. And it's just, it's agricultural lands crisscrossed by railway lines. the British built, actually, in the 1880s to take cattle and other goods to Montevideo to the port and export to Europe.

And it's just, the roads are deserted. You know, if you pass somebody by on the road as you're driving, it's going to be a gaucho on horseback. And it's possible to day trip into the interior, of course. And there are wonderful, there are festivals that you can go to. In my books, I include a list of festivals to go and check out, like, gaucho festivals. They are for the gauchos. They're not for visitors. And so it's a really, really remarkable experience.

Tell us what a gaucho is for people who don't know. It's a South American cowboy, basically. And so they are people that work on, you know, with the cattle in the interior here. The most interesting experience is to go and, stay at an instantia, which are the kind of, you know, the dude ranches of Uruguay. And you have the chance to go. There are estancias for all pocketbooks. They go from luxurious kind of almost like country hotels, but they'll still have cattle

and horses and you go out to ride with the gauchos. Or they will be, you know, humble ones that are actually where you'll be staying in the house of the gaucho. And it's just a really, really magical experience. You know, you get the opportunity to just really soak in a very, very underpopulated, unspoiled part of the world where, you know, the skies are just, there's no pollution, there's no light pollution. And it's just, I think that I've heard of people, I've heard of people from the UK

for example, like flying to Uruguay, getting on a bus, taking a bus to the interior, to the interior, getting picked up by the Estancia owner, getting taken to the Estancia and then just staying there for 10 days and just reading and relaxing and eating country food, which is really simple and they could get to milk, milk cows if they wanted or get involved in the life on the ranch or just kick back and just just it's just like living an alternative reality. I remember one one time I went and I was just offered the chance to milk a cow and so I was sitting there and there was tango on the there was a transistor radio and there was tango. Tango is also in Uruguay tango on the radio and I was milking this cow and there was this little sheepdog puppy

gambling around at my feet and I was looking out. over the horizon that just seemed to stretch forever. And I just thought, my God, I just feel like I'm in a parallel universe. I never imagined that I would have the chance to experience this lifestyle. And, you know, and so I know people that have done that, they've come there, and then they get driven back to the bus station, they get back to the airport, and they go back to their country again. And it's just the opportunity, I think, to really, really, to switch off.

What's the name of the one that you went to you? I'll just check it for you. It's in my book. I'm just going to check it quickly. It's called Ivitu Itati. See how difficult it is? No, that takes a while to get there. But there's also, there are other instances, for example,

Estancia El Sable, which is just an hour away from, you know, from the airport. But you still have a similar experience. So you don't even need to travel that far to get there. Can we do a lightning round of your favorite things in Montevideo? Yeah, great pronunciation. I wrote it down as you were talking. How about favorite tour? Is there a walking tour, something that we can do to get our bearings once we get there?

Sure. There is a walking tour that goes from the Plaza Independencia twice a day. I think it's 11 a.m. and 2 p.m. And that's a free tour and you can tip for that. And you just show up. You just show up. How about cafe? I really love a historic cafe which is called Bar Montevideo Al-Sour.

It's in Barrio Sur, we talked about that neighbourhood earlier, and it's just, it has all of the old fittings from 100 years ago. It has a marble counter and these beautiful tiles on the floor. But it's just, it has lovely outdoor seating, it has a reading, room and live music and the food that they serve is very good price. They serve a lot of what Uruguayans refer to as tartas or like they're kind of like kish with a fresh salad for example. And it's just a really, it's a really relaxing place to go any time of day. And in the evening, they will be starting to have live music again now.

That sounds like such an enjoyable place. It's so lovely. You know, and often the owner, Joaquin takes his dog. She makes a really great Instagram photo, this little terrier, on these matching tiles. Tell me more about the cafe culture. I would say that there were lots of cafes traditionally that men would go to particularly, but a lot of those closed down in the last economic crisis that there was around 2002,

a lot of the old traditional ones. So the cafe culture now, you've got a few places like Bar, Montevideo, Al-Sur that, you know, young people have gone and taken them over and kept the surroundings but modernized the offer. And in my book, actually, I've got a list of some of the old ones that do still exist that are quite amazing. But more and more now, you know, there's a much more modern cafe culture. With the Wi-Fi and all that. Well, Wi-Fi is everywhere here and it's free. even the airport has free Wi-Fi, which is amazing. But yeah, you know, much more kind of like, you know, choosing your different styles of coffee and things like that. What is your favorite restaurant?

I would say that I really like a restaurant called El Mingus, Mingus being like Charles Mingus, you know, the jazz player. El Mingus in Spanish. And it's in Palermo. What I really like about it, Again, it's one of these kind of old cafes, and they serve Uruguayan, classic, traditional Uruguayan food, but they do a modern twist on it. So they've got, instead of it being very heavily meat-based, then there are lots of vegetables, and they'll add some spicy things to it, which I didn't mention earlier, but the cuisine in Uruguay has traditionally been, well, we mentioned it was kind of meat, meat-based. but there's not a heavy use of certainly not hot.

The food here is not hot or spicy. But in El Mingos they will give you some spice. They'll give you some really interesting takes on the Uruguayan classics. And hopefully they'll be starting, once music can start up again, they'll be going back to having their Tuesday night, candombe jazz sessions with some of the best young musicians in Uruguay, and that's something. Very fun. I love a good market when I'm traveling like food markets but also like artisan markets. Are there any markets that we should check out?

I would say that there are a lot of new markets now, but they're more based on food. The market that really you cannot miss in Montevideo is the port market. And the port market is down by the port, naturally. And it's full of stands with grills where you go to eat vast quantities of beef. Not my scene. Oh, I'm so sorry. But it's definitely, it's not like, you know, you're not seeing dead animals hanging anywhere. You know, it's the meat is cooking and there are flames everywhere and smoke.

It's quite a dramatic scene. And the market itself is all, it's from, it's over 100 years old. And it was constructed with materials that were brought from. the UK. So it looks like an old train station inside with a big grandfather clock. It's really, really atmospheric. So it's definitely worth going to check out. Where do you like to hang out at night? I love to go out and listen to live music. That's like the main thing that I like to do. And I think that Montevideo, from that point of view, is amazing because every night there are two, three, four, five live music shows going on. That's not counting. Theater. And so it's really,

it's really something. There's always something going on and they'll be in big venues and small venues. There are really so many amazing musicians. And you will have the chance to be in a tiny cafe right up next to them, watching them presenting you their art, you know. for like $10. I mean, it's just, it's remarkable. What I tend to do is I look at the listings and I'll select something and I'll go out and see a show because people don't buy, you don't tend, especially in the smaller shows, to be able to buy tickets in advance.

What you can often do is reserve and people tend to reserve either using Instagram or Facebook. That's actually a good tip for you. is that, you know, maybe you might not use Facebook generally, but I would suggest having a Facebook account when you come to Uruguay for two reasons. One is because you can make reservations, for example, if you're interested in live music through Facebook, through Messenger. But also, I run, and I'd love to invite your listeners if they'd be interested in joining,

I run a Facebook group called Discover Uruguay. and so if you had listeners that fancied going to see live music, I would be very happy if they wanted to let me know via Facebook Messenger that they're going to be in town in a couple of days' time and what do I recommend for them to go and see, I would be very happy to post recommendations for them on Discover Uruguay because, you know, if you look at, I can give you the name of the listings, but if you don't read Spanish and also if you don't know,

what any of them are about, how do you decide which one to go and see, right? I'd be very happy to help people decide where to go. That's very helpful. Thank you. Can you give us the name of like one theatre that you would recommend? Well, there's the Solis Theatre, which is Uruguay's oldest theatre, and it's really beautiful. That's in the old city. I wanted to ask you about tipping culture. So like when it comes to restaurants and taxis, well, I guess you said there's Uber. So what's the tipping culture there. Restaurants, you could, I mean, if you tip 10%, people will absolutely love you. I mean, you, I would say that, you know, I do that unless if you were unhappy with your meal,

then, yeah, you could consider not, not, but hopefully you're going to have a great experience. So, but yeah, no, I mean, 10% is, is fine and very appreciated at a restaurant. And in taxis, funnily enough, people don't tend to tip. I think that you'll see why when you use a taxi, because they tend to not be helpful at all. Okay. They won't help you with your bags or anything. What neighborhood would you recommend? And I think on your website, guruwai.com, I think you actually help people find places to at least rent, or for

sale? If you're coming to visit, then I think the old city is a great place to stay because you've got everything, you know, all of the major sites are in and around the old city. And like I said, you can get everywhere on foot. If you'd like to be closer to more of a, maybe there are lots of bars and cafes now kind of more of a hipster neighborhood scene going on in Palermo and Parke Rodo, those neighborhoods. If you want something more, let's how to describe it, less maybe something, if you're coming from the States and you want something more familiar, then a neighborhood like Positos or Punta Caritas is going to feel more familiar to you.

It's going to be more built up, and it's going to have high rises and things. It's going to be more, what's the word, like kind of international, I guess, is the word. Come on, stay in Palermo. That sounds like that. Yeah. That sounds like that.

And regarding, you know, if you were coming here to live, I think that I would recommend that you try out a few different neighborhoods first before you decided. Wise advice. Yeah, I think that's a nice way to see which one suits you better. Karen, thank you so much for joining me today. Where can people find out more about you? Well, I would love to catch up with people on guruwai.com, the website.

We also have a newsletter that I put out twice a month, and so you can sign up there in the footer on the website to be in contact directly. Yeah. And also, like I said, we have the Discover Uruguay group on Facebook. And also on Instagram, you'll find us as well. Well, thank you again. This has been so interesting. And now I definitely want to check out Uruguay. One thing that I didn't mention is that we are just one hour, what's the word, later than Eastern Standard time. So for people that are working in the States, we're on the great time zone there for you. Perfect. All right. Thank you again, Karen. Thanks, Sarah. That's all for now. Go ahead and follow the show or hit subscribe so you can hear more episodes like this. And if you would like my help taking bold action on your own dreams, like living abroad, changing careers and other life transitions, visit live without borderspodcast.com. Thanks for listening and have a beautiful week wherever you are. Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free conversation sheet sheet with simple formulas that you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you're in a meeting

or just talking with friends. Download it at sarahmicatel.com slash blank no more.