Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - Sarajevo: Ultimate Travel Guide to Bosnia’s Cosmopolitan Capital

Episode Date: December 20, 2019

If you’re a long-time listener, you’ve heard me mention Sarajevo before and how it completely transfixed me. I had the same feeling as when I saw the Roman forum for the first time. There was just something about the vibe of this place that transported me.    I became obsessed with Sarajevo and its history and felt so embarrassed that I knew so little about the war in the ‘90s before I traveled to Bosnia. I had a flicker of a memory of seeing an article about it when I was a kid and being outraged no one was helping the Bosnian people…but then that memory faded. Replaced by other atrocities in the world.   The main reason I put off doing a Sarajevo episode for so long is that there’s so much I wanted to get right, so many stories to tell. I wanted to share the whole history of the ‘90s. And someday when I have more time and resources, I’d love to do that. But for now, I can share the BBC documentary Death of Yugoslavia.    Today, I’ll be focusing more on the wonderful things you can see and do in present-day Sarajevo. My friend, Cat Norman Tahirović, a photographer who has made Bosnia her home, shares all her best travel recommendations.   Enjoy the show! *** I’m your host, Sarah Mikutel. Did you know I host another show called Podcasting Step by Step? Check it out if you’ve been wanting to start a podcast. Every week, I break down ‘how to podcast’ with a little loving motivation to give you the skills and confidence you need to finally launch that show of your dreams.   Ready to travel? Get your free guide to cheap airfare.   Thank you so much for listening to this show. I know you’re busy and have many listening options, so it means a lot to me that you’re here. You are the best.   This podcast is brought to you by Audible. Not a member yet? Postcard Academy listeners can get a FREE audiobook and a 30-day free trial if you sign up via audibletrial.com/postcard   This podcast is also brought to you by World Nomads. Need simple and flexible travel insurance? Get a cost estimate from World Nomads using their handy calculator at postcardacademy.co/insurance    Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

Welcome to the Postcard Academy. I'm your host, Sarah Micatel, and today I am finally talking about Sarajevo. This will not be the last time, I'm sure, but people have been asking me for an episode on this place for a while. So I decided to do the first one with my friend, Kat Norman, who is a photographer who has made Bosnia her home. In case you didn't know, Bosnia was part of the socialist federal republic of Yugoslavia, and that was made of Serbia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Croatia, Slovenia, Montenegro, and Macedonia. And this all started to unravel after the death of its leader, Tito, in 1980. And the individual republic started to declare their independence in the early 90s. If you are a longtime listener of this show, you've heard me mention Seriala before and how it completely transfixed me.

I had the same feeling when I saw the Roman Forum for the first time. And this place just, there was something about the vibe that completely transported me. And I became obsessed with the city and its history and felt really embarrassed that I knew so little about the war in the 90s before I went. I had a flicker of a memory of seeing an article about it when I was a kid being outraged that the world wasn't helping the Bosnian people, but that memory faded. And so I think you would have a greater appreciation for Bosnia and its people if you knew a little bit about the history before you went.

And that's one of the main reasons why I haven't put out a Bosnia or a Serrabo episode yet because I wanted to get the history perfect because it was so important to me. And I don't have the time and resources to do that justice now. But there is a fantastic resource that I realize, oh, I can just share this with you. And that is the BBC documentary deaths of Yugoslavia. It's a masterpiece. And I don't think I've ever used that word to describe anything in my entire life. I've never seen anything like it. It's six hours on the fall of Yugoslavia and the wars that came after.

But it was filmed as this was as this was happening. So they were interviewing warlords and presidents and the victims. It's incredible. Obviously horrible and tragic, but also, like, gripping. Like, you just can't stop watching it. So it's better than any film, I think. that's out there. It's won a Peabody a BAFTA award. But more importantly, the interviews from this documentary were used as evidence in war crimes prosecution. So pretty incredible. If you are a

history lover, go binge on death of Yugoslavia. I will put a link in the show notes where you can find that. Now, please enjoy my conversation with cats, which will be much lighter and include all of the cool things that you can do in Syriavo today when you go. Welcome, Kat. Thank you so much for joining me today. Yeah, I'm glad to be here. So you live in Sarajevo now, but I know you grew up as a third culture kid. Could you describe what that is and where you grew up? Yes, I have been very fortunate to travel most of my life, actually, but I did start out with my childhood in Nigeria. I have my parents who were doctors there. So right from the bat, I had a unique third world experience, of course, being an American and living and growing up in Nigeria. And so how did you end up in Sarajevo? I think you were living a pretty nomadic life before you settled there. So what was it about Sarajevo where you're like, yes, this is home? I have gotten that question so many times. And I've always given sort of similar answers in the fact that when I showed up, it felt like home.

I've kind of tried to break that down for myself in recent years. And I truly think it was just some perfect thing where I had traveled so much in my life and lived in so many places. And I was a little bit ready to settle. And when I came to Sarajevo, it sort of had it all as far as what I was looking for. I know what you mean because people ask me, well, why London? Why do you feel so at home at London? And sometimes it's just a feeling that you get. And it's hard to put into words. But I feel that way about folks in where I'm living now at the beach in the UK. So as an American, how are you able to stay and live and work in Bosnia? So as with any foreign country, of course, I have to get a work permit or have some other reason to be there. As nice as it is to get to travel to so many places so easily to actually live somewhere, it does take some paperwork in some doing. When I first showed up, I had this great idea to run a little hostel, which I successfully did. And you actually have been a guest of ours. That's how we got to know each other. Yes, I loved it there.

Yeah, a little hostel on the hill. That was my business for the first five years that I was here. I lost the building that we were renting to put that in. And it was a perfect segue for me to try some other things in life. I now have a partner here. I'm living with my husband, who's Bosnian. My ability to stay in the country is no longer linked to having a job that makes sense on paper. So I've had an opportunity to pursue some of my own arts and crafts, which kind of fulfills the soul a little bit more for me. Yes, I love that. You're making scarves now, I think.

Yes, I'm doing lots of natural dye things, including scarves, gift cards, quilts. It's an activity and a hobby that's grown out of passion, and it's actually now turning into a business. So Bosnia is one of those places where when I arrived, it just, like, intoxicated me. I was like, how have I not been here before? And I actually thought about trying to move there myself for a little bit.

but just logistically, so I'm an EU citizen, but that would only let me live and work in the EU, which Bosnia is not part of the EU. So your visa situation, was it like really complicated? Did you have like a long-term residency visa? I'm just trying to figure out how that works so I can copy you. Yes. You should follow quickly in my footsteps. It's a wonderful place to be here. The visa situation is a lot of paperwork and it takes a lot of time. But in my experience, and living in other countries, including in the EU, that's the same for everywhere, especially, you know, having an American passport. You have to prove that you have a reason to be here. You have to apply for all the right papers. But it's just a matter of getting the list and slowly working through it in spite of the frustrations and the annoying little papers that you have to

get filled out in these remote, random little places. So was your reason to be there to start a hostel? Yeah, the business was the reason to be here. And then after that, of course, when I married a local, that my reason to be here was through marriage. You'll have to find a husband for me. I know. It is a lot easier when you're married in. But the business is possible. So you're living in Sarajevo. Could you give us a visual snapshot of the city? What does the postcard look like? Okay. So the postcard, as everybody knows it, is this terrible war-torn country, backwards, doesn't have a chance of entering the EU because they're too crazy, all these terrible things that you hear about us. None of it is even noticed when you're here. It is so marvellously laid back,

beautiful, the people are so warm and friendly. The food is all comfort food. It's just straight out of Grandma's kitchen. And when you come here, it is not limited to me. It feels like home. It is a truly magical place. There is actually a road where East meets West. I think, help me with the pronunciation. Is it Ferhadia? That's right. Yeah, you're close enough. And if you stroll down it, you can see the history of Bosnia through the architecture. So the buildings go from Islamic because the Ottomans were there for hundreds of years. And then Viennese because the Austro-Hungarian Empire. And then you'll see Yugoslav buildings.

And then you'll see modern malls. So could we like take a imaginary walk through Bosnian history, like pretending we're walking down the street? Like what are we going to be seeing if we're starting in the Ottoman side of the town? So of course, most people know Bosnia because of the war. But the history here actually goes back even further, or even what you can see in the town all the way to Roman times. There's medieval settlements.

You can start even further than Bishcharcia, where the Ottomans set up to the original foundations of a fortress on the hillside, the yellow fortress and the white fortress, and get a view into town and you see kind of why this was a strategic area throughout all of history, including the Roman roads, because you can see kind of in both directions down this valley and the roads leading into it. From there, of course, the Ottomans came in and greatly developed the city.

They more than goodness, I don't know the exact number, but five times expanded the downtown area, but Charcia is what they called it. They added in tradesmen's and trades routes, and the city just flourished underneath the Ottoman Empire. And today you can still see that Islamic market. Oh, yes. The whole old town is actually a protected heritage site,

so they have to keep the buildings to that look, though it is very much authentically still that look. It's not so much new and redone. It's like a little Istanbul, kind of. Yes, and it's beautiful. And even people come from Turkey and say that this is more, Turkey than what they have at home because Istanbul modernized where here not a lot of things did, especially in that section of town. So the buildings truly are the same as they would have been

way back when with some added plumbing. And can you just repeat the name of that section of town? That section of town is Campos, Charcia. And most tourists will spend most of their time there. Most locals spend at least part of their week there. And most of us expats definitely aim towards it for our nightlife lunch times. It's the place you meet up with people. It is still the active city center. I love that it's such a mix. Yeah, it's not just like a tourist place, but that's where the locals are hanging out as well. Yeah. And that's part of what gives it its vibe. You can go to so many beautiful cities, pick them to Brov and split or something. And the old town is really kind of now specifically for tourists because the locals can't afford to be there anymore. And that is not sure

of Sarajevo. It's the old town is for locals and the tourists are also welcome there. And what is that main fountain where everybody is meeting at? The main fountain is called Sebel or it's better known as Pigeons Square for those who don't follow the Bosnian language on that. And it's a very well-known fountain around the world. There's even a few copies and a few other places expressing their love for Bosnians that are able through replicas of that fountain. Yeah. So if you have to meet somebody there, it's a very helpful marker. Like, I'll just meet you at the Pigeon fountain. Yes, everybody meets there. As you radiate out from that center hub, you can actually get into these other developed parts of town. So the Austro-Hungarians came in after the Ottomans. And they brought in that Viennese architecture.

You can, you know, the straight roads, the tall buildings, the courtyards in between. And it's so magical to go just strolling from this old Turkish, Ottoman style. And then the next thing you know, you do these like grand building areas with this beautiful national theater, things like that. We do have a street that says east meets west. And you can literally see the change between these two, just left and right, a complete and total turnaround in the architectural shift. As you radiate out from that, you get into the Yugoslavian architecture for the 1984. for Olympics. They did a lot of building and replanning of the city

edges at the time that was closer to the edges. And it feels very much you have brutalist architecture, which is quite popular at that time. You have Russian influences. You have the 80s, which honestly was not a great period in architecture, but at the same time is very distinctive.

And it just kind of grows bigger and more communist blocky and everything from that as you push further and further out of town as the town grows as far as it can through the valley. here. I love the architecture. I think it's beautiful. You can still see bullet holes in shrapnel left over from the Bosnian War. I think they're good reminders, I guess. So it stays in people's minds. And actually, the Bosnian War is actually a pretty big part of the tourism in

Sarajevo, because it's something that we should remember, but it's something that a lot of people, especially in the West, in the U.S., don't really know that much about. Could we talk about, what happened in the 90s. And I guess we'll have to back up and talk about what Yugoslavia was. Yeah, let's start with Yugoslavia. So it was the Ottomans, it was the Austrians. And then Yugoslavia came along. There was some brief periods of independence here and there was just Bosnia. But the next major center in Sarabas, it was like for it being a part of Yugoslavia. It was known as this perfect center of harmony throughout all of Yugoslavia was prized. And that's why it was picked as the city to host the 1984 Olympics, because here you had

this perfect picture of everybody living in harmony. The Muslims, the Orthodox, the Catholics, the Jews, everybody was here. And the communist too, here, happy together. Oddly and sadly, it was only some years after, less than 10 years after, that it all fell apart. Neighbors turned their backs on each other. Political forces changed the feelings in the town. And Sarajevo became the longest siege in modern history, where the citizens were genuinely under fire for some three and a half years, where they were being bombed from the hillsides, this valley, which is so beautiful, became a trap. It was somewhere that they couldn't get out of. And I think many people around the world have seen pictures from that war,

some of the horrible images of the bombings, and heard the tales of what people had to survive, the bad food, the bad conditions, the bad medicine and everything. Come the end of the war, though, in 95-96, they signed the Dayton Peace Accords in the United States, and they established some variety of peace. It's been more than 20 years. The country's still recovering mainly in the areas of government and economics.

It's still present. Like you said, you see. the bullet holes. You hear it in conversations with people. You feel it when you're walking around. But it is no longer, I think, the only reason that people are visiting this area. I guess one of the things that I found so disturbing when I went there, like, I remember as a kid reading what was going on in Bosnia in the paper and just thinking, I can't believe the world isn't helping these people, like what's going on? And then, you know, X number of years go by and it sort of faded from my memory because so many bad things happen in this world.

And then when I got to Sarajevo, I just felt so ignorant and dumb and just embarrassed that I didn't know more because some of the questions I was asking people who had actually fought in the war. Later on I was like, oh my God, I can't believe I was asking such a basic question. I just felt like the propaganda on the Serb side was,

I'm just seeing echoes of it today, you know, where you pick a scapegoat to get, at what you want and to manipulate people. And yeah, it's so much to go into. Yeah, it is a highly complex issue. And to be honest, the longer I'm here, the less I really understand it. There's really just so many sides. Nothing is black and white.

It's easy to have a good guy and a bad guy and it's really not that simple. The breakup of Yugoslavia was incredibly complex. And it sort of makes sense to me that the world didn't quite understand what was going on. Okay, I can't help myself. I'm popping in here to give a little bit of history about Sarajevo and Bosnia. The history of this area is complex, and so I would definitely recommend taking some tours to wrap your mind around this and to enrich your trip. I love funky tours.

So here is an extremely simplified version of Bosnian history, as I understood it when I was there. Sarajevo is made up of three main ethnic groups, Bosniaks, who are Muslims, Serbs, who are Orthodox Christian, and Croats. or Croats, who are Catholic. And when the Roman Empire split in the 300s, yes, we're going back to the Roman Empire. And this region, like the history goes way before that to the Illyrians and even before them. But we'll start with Roman history. So the Roman Empire split in the 300s, and the west side of the Balkans went Catholic and the east side went Orthodox Christian. Then the Ottomans came and brought Islam in the 1300s. And so they added,

met to the mix. And in Sarajevo, these groups got along for centuries, and you can find places of worship here for Muslims, Jews, Christians. The Ottomans ruled the Balkans for centuries. But eventually, Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina, that's the full name of Bosnia, they became part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. But Serbia became independence. But there were nationalists who had dreams of a greater Serbia. that didn't involve the Habsburgs. So early in the 1900s, Bosnian-Serb nationalists plotted to end the Austro-Hungarian rule, and they assassinated the heir, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, when he visited Sterebo, and that started World War I. So Serbia fought with the allies during this war, while the other southern Slavic countries

had to fight with the Austro-Hungarian Empire because they were occupied by them. They lost the empire fell, and the southern Slavic countries united as Yugoslavia with the Croatian side, feeling a little bit like they were second-class citizens. Then comes World War II and the Nazi invasion of the Balkans. And they installed a puppet regime in Croatia that set up death camps to murder Serbians in addition to Jews and other people that the Nazis deemed undesirable. So during World War II, two local groups fought for control of the Yugoslav area. The Chetniks, who were pretty much terrorists, and Chetnik is now a dirty word in that region,

and the partisans who fought the Nazis and they won, and they created an independent and communist Yugoslavia under Yosef Brose. I'm not sure if I said that right, but he's better known as Tito. And he created peace in this region, and most people that I spoke with said that this was the golden era for the Balkans. Tito did lay down the law. He punished his enemies, including the Chetniks, the Nazi-backed puppet regime in Croatia. He didn't put up with anyone's BS, but this also included any dissidents as well. So that region, Yugoslavia was called, considered communist light. So industry was run by the state, but people could still own small businesses.

They could travel freely. And so everyone who I spoke with who was like 40 plus and remembers those times said, yes, this was the best time of our era. Like we just felt taken care of. We knew our neighbors. Da-da. You know, of course, when we look back on history, a lot of things can seem rose-tinted.

But I got the feeling that they really had great memories from this time. But everything fell apart after Tito died in 1980. Slobodan Milosevic, who would become Serbia's president, annexed Kosovo, territory that Serbia considered its own. And he started to excite his base about a greater Serbado. Serbia again. And other Yugoslav countries were like, no thanks, we do not want to be part of this. We want out. And they started to declare their independence in the early 90s. But the leaders of Serbia and Croatia had this grandiose idea to expand their territory by taking over Bosnia. And the easiest way

to do this was to turn Bosnians into the enemy. And so they manipulated Kroten Serbs with this false sense of history and media manipulation. In his memoir to end a war, Richard Holbrook, the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs and Special Envoy to Bosnia, said, Yugoslavia's tragedy was not foreordained. It was a product of bad, even criminal political leaders who encouraged ethnic confrontation for personal, political, and financial gain. So Slobodan Milosevic used televised propaganda to turn neighbors against. each other in Bosnia. Ethnic Bosnian Serbs who'd been friends with Bosniaks, those are Bosnian Muslims, suddenly saw them as the enemy. And Milosovic reminded people of the World War II death camps

that the Serbs went to that had nothing to do with Bosnians. And he used this as an excuse to commit genocide himself. And even Western politicians bought into this idea of these ancient hatreds and use this as an excuse not to help the Bosnian people. And they just, the attitude was, let them fight it out amongst themselves. This just goes way back. But there were some American heroes like Richard Holbrook, Nataliene Albright, who was the U.S. ambassador to the UN, Senator Bob Dole, and others who wanted to do the right thing. And when Senator Dole, who was also a war veteran, was asked, why the U.S. should get involved in Bosnian? He said, I think that's a very easy answer because we happen to be the leader of the world.

And he went on to chair the International Commission on Missing Persons. So in 1992, Bosnia just started to fall apart. Ethnic Bosnian Serbs started their own army called the army of the Republic Serbska. And I'm probably not pronouncing that right either, but we're going to say Serbska. and they committed horrific acts of violence and humiliation against Bosnian Muslims. I will spare you the details now, but it was equal to what I've seen in museums on the Nazis. And where did these Bosnian Serbs get their weapons? Well, when Yugoslavia was a federation of republics, the army had been based in Serbia,

and Slobod-Milovic controlled the Yugoslav army. And that was a very heavily armed force. So they gave the Bosnian Serb forces all the weapons that they needed. But the Bosnians who did not want to be part of this greater Serbia, so that's the Muslims, but then also Bosnian Serbs who did not want to be part of this conflict and thought it was horrible what was happening. They didn't have any weapons because they were all in Serbia. So they formed a rag tag army anyway and called themselves the Republic of, Bosnia and Herzegovina. So they were left to defend themselves with what they could find and what

they could get smuggled across the border. From 1992 to 1995, the army of the Republic Serbska murdered, tortured, and raped to push non-Serbs out of their area of Bosnia. And they used sniper and mortar attacks that killed Bosnian Serbs as well. And about two million people had to flee their homes. NATO finally acted in 1995 after those leading the Republic of Zyribska took over the safe zones that were supposedly protected by the UN and they blocked aid from getting into these safe zones and then they entered one of them, Srebrenica, where they killed 8,000 Muslim men and boys in less than two weeks. There was also a market bombing in Sarajevo, escalating deaths. Melosovic continued to refuse to work with the UN.

And so NATO bombed the army of the Republic, Serbska, into retreat. It's just stunning to me that they sat on their hands for years. And then all of a sudden, it was so easy to bomb them into retreat. It just breaks my heart that 100,000 people had to die. That we know of, a lot more missing unaccounted for. The siege of Sarajevo was officially declared over in February 1996. And so Sarajevo was kind of like in the... this valley and they were just getting shot it for years. The date and peace accord sealed the deal for

peace, but it tied Bosnia into this complicated political structure that split the country into two entities, the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Republic of Serbska, which I don't understand at all. They actually got the majority of territory, the people that committed these horrible acts. I understand they had to get a peace accord signed. but that seems like such a heavy price to pay. And this plan wasn't meant to be forever, but it has stood. And now, because of these accords, Bosnia has three presidents, all with their own laws, administrations, and agendas,

resulting in this really complex and very, very expensive structure that's preventing a lot of innovation and reform. Understandably, unemployment is high. Politicians in Republic, Syrpska continue to call for secession. Salaries are low. I mean, these guys have had it rough. Before the war, Bosnia's districts were ethnically mixed and now they're mostly homogenous. All this sounds bleak. But, at least in its capital, Serievo still feels very resilient and promising. And miraculously, the country's economy has actually seen positive growth over the last two decades. And Bosnia has applied to join the European Union,

so let's wish them well. There was a war. It was terrible. It is honestly why so many people are coming because they want to get come to terms with that war and with how they heard about something but didn't understand it. People do come here to process. And you'll see a lot of our tourism geared towards war tours, war experiences, where childhood museums, things like that. It's important to interact with because it is relevant to what's happening in the world today, very relevant. However, it's not the only reason people should be coming here. Nobody should be afraid that this is just some terrible war-torn country where things are backwards. This is a very modern European city. And it's a wonderful place to visit,

even if you want to hear nothing about war. So, Kat, if I'm coming to visit Sarajevo, are there any tours that you would recommend? I did funky tours, unfortunate name, but I thought they were a fantastic tour company. What do you recommend? Yeah, Fonkey Tours are great. I really like them, and they're like Neno's free walking tour. Neno was the first guy offering a free walking tour here, and he kind of puts all of the information into one tour,

tips-based, where there's a lot of other free walking tours in town that just don't offer as much because they want to sell you on their other tours. Neno does a great job and really fills out that tour big. And how do you spell his name? N-E-N-O, N-N-O-O-R-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-E-W-W-E-W-E-W-E-W-E. Excellent. So what experiences should we have when we visit Sarajevo? I think it is obligatory to do something in the nature. People don't think of Bosnia as a nature place. They should. We have the most phenomenal stuff and it's all very close to the city, if not even within the city. I think I mentioned that the roots of the city you can find in these fortresses on the hillside. Getting up just to the edges of the hillsides here doesn't have to be a long walk. Can't even be done with a taxi if somebody's not into hiking uphill. Getting this view into Sarajevo as the valley city is just breathtaking. It's a great way to get an understanding. It's a great way to get an understanding. of everything that happened here and why it's just so beautiful and varied. Yeah, so Sarajevo is in this valley.

And the last time I was there, you could actually take a cable car up into like the hillside and then go for a little walk up there, go see like the remains of the 1984, like bobsled Olympics. Exactly, right. The cable car up into Mount Trebovich is amazing. It's easily accessible and you can get into the old 1980s. 84 Olympic sites, which are kind of cool and eerie up there in the mountains, a taste of the nature, a taste of the views. I also really like going to the opposite hillside from that where they have the yellow fortress and the white fortress, which are just viewpoints into the city at this point.

They have cafes there. During Ramadan, they do a fireworks to mark the end of the day's fasting. It's a romantic place to sit and just watch the sunset over the city. Yeah, and that's a lot of people take their picnics up to, is it the yellow fort? Is that the one where people go and? Yeah, gorgeous sunset. I loved doing that. What other experiences should we have in Sarajevo? I do think people need to process the war a little bit. So take a war tour or one of the free tours where you get some information on it. So you're not totally lost and clueless on that. I think the nightlife is worth being appreciated, especially if you can kind of avoid some of the Western style nightlife and focus on old Bosnian style nightlife with Tamborashi bands that go table to table singing local songs. It's a lot of fun. Oh, yes. When I stayed at your hostel, we did a big night out at what was the name of that place? That would have been Kino, Bosna. It's my favorite place to take anybody.

Is that every Monday night? Every Monday night. It's an old theater. It's actually an old porn theater if you want to add that fun fact. I didn't know that. Whoa. It is. The place has, of course, tons of legends, half of them true, half of them not. It doesn't matter which ones or which. That one is apparently meant to be true, though. But the place is an old theater. been converted into a bar and it's truly a unique experience. And they have a local band that goes table to table on Monday nights. It's crazy. It's wild. It's old. It's young. It's cheap beer. It's truly unique. And it must do even to organize your trip to be here on a Monday night is worthwhile.

Yeah. I mean, it was incredible. I felt like I had gone back in time like 40 years and like everyone's smoking and it did have like a very 80s vibe. But I loved it in the best way like you said. that you can get like rockia for really cheap, which is their fruit-flavored brandy. Yep. And good music. Yeah, food-shine people dancing around. You, yeah, everyone, you have to go. You have to go to keynote.

It is a most time experience. You know, a lot of people come here looking for what style of nightlife they like at home, like techno or something like that. To be honest, it's hardly in existence here. You're seeing more of it all the time, but it's really on a very low level. I think travelers here should just embrace the local nightlife, which is honestly just to have drinks with friends, good conversation, and just reveling in life, talking, not dancing, not going crazy with music, just enjoy.

Yeah, and going back to what you said about tourists and locals doing similar things like, you know, Basma, it's a mix of locals and tourists. Again, it's not just like this show put on for tourists. Oh, no, for sure not. If you come in the winter, there won't be any tourists there, and places just as packed, if not more. They don't need tourists. They're not trying to attract tourists. Tourists are welcome, but if you want a table, you better be a local.

What other nightlife spots do you like? I remember we went to one bar and the owner learned how to brew beer in Pakistan because there was no beer when he was there, so I had to teach himself. And then he came back home and opened a pub. True story. There's a guy at the Simmysburg Brewery has a little pub up in the neighborhood. It's a bit hard to find for children. It's not really on the main drug, but they have phenomenal beer.

He's actually started even brewing his own whiskey, and it's great. And it's a cool way to support a local, get a neighborhood vibe, and have some craft beers, which are honestly something new to the scene in Sarajevo. Could you tell us the name of that place again? Semyzburg Pivnizza. And then you and I had dinner at a very good place up on a hillside. It was kind of known as, I think, one of Therierierreier restaurants. You have to book ahead.

but it was good food. And also, and Sarajevo is a very affordable place compared to other cities like Paris and London. Oh, good. You can get a stake here for the price of a sandwich in Paris, I think. Even when this restaurant. What was the name of that restaurant that we went to? That was called Kibah Mahala, or just Keebe is perhaps the easiest to look it up. K-I-B-E.

And again, speaking of places you can get views, it's perfect. You get the whole perspective on the city. it's just great. Other places, you know, we talked about having a picnic up on that sunset fortress. There's a pizza place halfway up the hill as you go to that sunset fortress, the yellow fortress. Grabbing a pizza from there and going up for a snack while you're watching the sunset is for me the most perfect dinner you can have in town. And for vegetarians, the Balkans is not the easiest place. It's starting to get easier, but you'll be eating a lot of breads. Yeah, to be honest, it's harder for the gluten-free than for the vegetarians, but it is

challenging for both, especially due to one of these small language issues. Locally, if you say meat, it is specifically implying red meat. So they don't really consider chicken or fish to be on the meat list. So a lot of times you'll get offered chicken if you come as a vegetarian saying that you don't eat meat. It just doesn't translate the right way. But as the world moves on, it's getting more and more popular here as well. And there are restaurants that are catering to it or at least places that are willing to slightly adapt them and you to pull the big pieces of meat out.

Yeah, there's actually a lunchtime canteen where the workers go called ASDZ. I think at least that's what it says outside. And they have a really delicious, very affordable lunch where you can get either a vegetarian meal or a meat eater's plate and fresh bread. I think my veg meal cost six marks or something. Yeah. Yeah. So like maybe three euro or something like that. So that style of restaurant you just mentioned is called an Ashtonica, and it's actually from an old Turkish canteen setting.

And it is essentially the Southern American version of a meat in three. You show up, it's cafeteria style. You pick what you want. You can have a little bit of this meat, these potatoes, these side vegetables, rice, whatever. Pick a dessert to go with it. And in general, the price is going to be between five and ten marks. It's really affordable. It's great fresh food.

They make it in the morning. They serve it throughout the afternoon. And it gets better and better as it sits. I love these kind of places. Yes, me too. What are the foods that we should be trying when we're in Bosnia? The classics, of course, are the pita, which is nothing like a Middle Eastern pita bread. This is actually a phylo dough pastry stuffed with meat, spinach, cheese.

The meat version is called buruk. Every other version has its own special name. But if you start with buruk, you'll be in a very good place. It's a meat pie. It's fantastic. For the vegetarians, the spinach or the cheese, they do have egg in them, but they don't have anything. They don't have any variety of meat in them. So there's vegetarian options for those as well.

After that, Chavapi, of course, is one of the most famous foods. It is more of a lunchtime food. It's grilled little meat fingers is one of the translations for them, but they've got a lot of garlic in them. Their sausages? Yeah, but without pork. Ground meat sausages. Okay. They're great.

You can also get them with sausages, actual sausages on the side if you want, too. It's served in a soul moon bread, which is more similar to that Middle Eastern pizza. and you can even get it with Kaimak, which is a version of cream cheese. It's actually somewhere between cream cheese and butter. So it's really rich, really wonderful, and just smothers together with this perfectly roast meat and greasy bread all at the same time. It's fantastic. It has served with chopped onion and a must try for any meat eaters that visit.

So what would you say the food culture is like? Are there any food markets or food halls that we could try? To get the best overview of the food, the Ashtonitzes are great. Because you can walk in and see kind of everything from the local soup, stews, stuffed peppers. Like, the mama's cooking, you know, the real food that people eat at home. There's whole streets, this chivopi that I mentioned, is a grill food. So there's like grill streets. You don't just cook chivopi anywhere because it is, it needs, you know, the smoke and the smell and everything.

So there's a whole street that's just pretty much chivoppy restaurants and Burak Janitsis that served this Borek I was talking about. And it's a fantastic way to just kind of peruse the food scene. But it's an area, not a really. really a market. There was a dessert that I really liked. It was sort of a poached apple, I think. Do you know what I'm talking about with the walnut? Yes. There was like walnuts inside and a little bit of whipped cream on top. Oh my gosh, so good. Yeah. Deserts here are sweet. There's no joke about it. They put a lot of sugar, baklava's, things that come out of that tradition. But one of the regional ones that is fantastic is that

poached apple, cooked in syrup, stuffed with walnuts, topped with whipped cream. It is phenomenal. It's called tufahia, and you can get it in sweet shops in town, or even some of those ashtonites that ASDZ is one place that you can get it on the menu as well. Do you have a favorite place to get it? So in Bosnia's sweet shop is called Celestatana. There's one in Bischarcia. I honestly don't know the name.

It's down there on the left side as you're walking to Sebel. If you see it in the window, you know it's going to be good. That's my recommendation. keep your eyes open. When you see them in the window, go inside and sit down and get yourself one. We talked a little bit about the going out culture. It's more people hanging out and like chatting and getting to know each other. And I had mentioned Rakhia, which is the brandy.

Is there anything else you wanted to mention about the going out drinking culture? A lot of people coming to town will see a lot of hookah bars as well. They're kind of tooted as something from here. they're not really. They've been imported. There's something that's fairly recent. It is a nice experience to sit in the courtyard, especially in the Ottoman district and share a hookah with the group. But that will also fall into that same thing where nightlife is generally focused around having a good time with a small group of friends. And friends are very easy to make here. There is some live music for people who really like live music, great local bands, cover bands,

things like that. One of the really nice hubs for that is the spark called Jasbina, locally Yasbina. It's in Bish Charcia, they have a lineup of live musicians all the time, and the covers are rarely expensive from nothing to 20 marks, and you get really great live music, good atmosphere. So if I were on holiday in Sarajevo and I wanted to buy a souvenir to remember my trip, what's a typical product you would recommend? Okay, so you know this is a shameless plug because I'm also selling handmade crafts here, but I have chosen to sell my stuff at this place called Bazurjan. I think even you have met Zana, one of the owners there. Yes, I love Anna. Fantastic place. Fantastic shop to go and get souvenirs because everything that they have is handmade in Bosnia.

I think I'm the only even semi-foreign that has something there, but all of my stuff is locally sourced. They have a really strict idea of what they put there and the stuff that they curate and list there is fantastic. So that's one option. I would also recommend walking around on the Copper Street. Or honestly, if you can have the time, you're here on a Sunday, going to the Sunday flea market. It's on the other side of town. That's a great place to get really unique souvenirs. You'll find some antiques from Yugoslavia,

some varieties of home trash that are just flea market perfect. And you can really make some unique and fantastic souvenirs from the region if you go there on Sundays. Could talk more about the Copper Street? Yeah, the Copper Street is also down in Bistrochia very near to that Pigeon Square. And it is a protected area. During the Ottoman Empire, every street had their own. specific craft that it had. That one was for copper craft, and copper craft is very ancient here. It is one of the few surviving streets that still maintains that. So everybody on that street is a

copper worker, and the craft goes so far back that you can see just genuinely intricate stuff, and it's very good prices. The most famous thing to buy there is a Bosnian coffee set for Bosnian coffee. One of the things that separates the difference between Bosnian coffee and Turkish coffee is that it's brewed in a copper pot traditionally. And you can buy your own self a copper pot for your home Bosnian coffee making in that copper street, handmade, beautifully decorated. Yes, that is a great souvenir in addition to the scarves that you sell. And there are plenty of great people there. Yeah. Yeah, Zana, who owns Bazurdan, and I'm going to just spell it out because I'm sure my presentation is garbage. V-A-Z-E-R-D-Z with a little U on the top of it,

A.N. It's a concept store featuring fashion and jewelry and other Hindi craft. And I loved it in there and actually got to know Azana. And she has such an interesting story. So she grew up in Sarajevo, was a kid during the war. And she was telling me that, you know, she watched her city burn and she promised herself, I'm never going to leave. Like, I'm going to stay here. I'm going to do something for my country. And she actually got a degree. in engineering and for a while worked at the UN, but then thought, you know what, I think I can help my city more if I open a shop, which she did. And so now she works closely with designers to help them develop and grow and market their products. And I actually went with her

to meet two of the designers. So this mom and daughter team who are making slippers and other items with Bosnian wool. And that was just such an incredible experience because I went and I met them and we actually drove there on July 11th, which is a day of morning in Bosnia. And that's when they're remembering when more than 8,000 victims of Shribanitsa genocide, you know, were murdered. So they're remembering them. And I'm sitting around this table with this mom and daughter.

And the mom starts crying, just thinking. you know, heartbroken for all the people who didn't survive the war, but like so happy and proud that the women at the table were making something of themselves. And they were so proud to be entrepreneurs and to be just sharing this part of Bosnian's history, like not wanting charity. And I think you had mentioned that to me too, Kat. Like the women in Bosnia are really rolling up their sleeves and taking charge when it comes to opening businesses. That is very true. Women here are very strong. A lot of men have great ideas too, but the scene of the growth of entrepreneurs and design, craft, fashion, it's phenomenal to see people taking it, making it theirs, making it modern and bringing it into the future. It's really exciting to be here now. And I would definitely recommend anybody who gets a chance to buy a souvenir to focus on making sure it's something that's locally made. There's a lot of imported Turkish goods and things from China that you can buy because they're cheaper. But if you're If you can support somebody who's trying to give back to their country, like the girls at Basrajan and everything, it's a phenomenal thing to contribute to and to invest in.

Yeah. And this is especially important in Bosnia, I think, because employment is sky high and it's difficult to innovate, but not impossible as the women who are opening businesses there are showing. But I was shocked to learn that because of the date in agreement that ended the war, it divided the country along ethnic line. And so Bosnia has three presidents, and they all have their own administrations, and they have veto power over each other. So it's really an absolute miracle that anything gets done. And so I just give these people so much credit. Yeah. But it is not easy, and they're choosing the harder road, but they're choosing it wisely. Well, I think and I hope I agree with them that if we invest in here, then it'll be a place for all of us.

if you just take the easier road, which is honestly for a lot of people just to try to get up into the European Union and move away. Yeah. At the end of the day, nobody's to benefit, especially not here. This is a place worth investing in. Yes. Kat, before we get to the lightning round, are there any day trips that you want to mention or any other places in Bosnia where we should be spending our time? Oh, yes. So anybody thinking about spending two or three days in Bosnia should just go ahead and plan two or three weeks.

there's so much to do around here. The nature is phenomenal. Just within reach of the city, 45 minutes drive, you can be up into those Olympic mountains. It's amazing. The food is grown underneath your feet, but you eat it. It's phenomenal to be in the nature,

to see the mountains. It's just gorgeous. Further than that, you can get to Molestar. You can go down to Trebonnier. There's wine region. There's green region. I mean, there's just so much variety within the country, so many places to visit.

Travnik to the north, Fisoko to the north, Banyaluka, if you can get the time to go up even further. Be hatch is interesting. I could go on for hours. You can go on a little bit. We're specifically, name some more specific places where we should go. And also, what's Bosnia's public transportation like?

If we, do we need a car or is there a way, another way to get to these places? So if you're doing city hopping, public transit will be fine. It's actually even somewhat more efficient because parking can be challenging within the cities. However, there's a lot to see between the cities and you will need a private car to get to those places. They're not all well linked with public transit systems. So I'd recommend somebody, if you can, rent a car for a couple days and especially explore the region between Saraba and Mostar. There's a lot of small cities that are just challenging to connect without a private car or a tour. You can't pay for a tour if you don't want to rent a car.

But these places that I've mentioned would be like the city of Konyitz. There's Tito's bunker there. It's really a fascinating. Tito had a bunker that was set here just in case of some World War, three that would emerge out of the Cold War, and it's kind of been preserved for a museum. Now it's an interesting spot to see. Further from that down, you've got Yablanitsa, the most amazing lamb dishes from there. You have beautiful lakes in between there, so you can stop off and camp at a lake or go for us when. Most are one of the second, but it is the second city. It's probably even more famous than Sarajevo-Fords Bridge. Great town to visit. Lots to see and do there as well. And within reach of that, you have even more like the Krovicea waterfalls,

Blagai, where there's a dervish house, the source of this river, just a cool and relaxing place to be in that region. And for Catholics, there's actually a really famous Catholic pilgrimage site in that region called Medjugary as well. That's just a few hours drive in one direction. Imagine if you get a car and start driving in every direction, that possibilities are absolutely endless. Yeah, I would love to spend more time going to the littler places. I didn't have a car when I was there, but I did funky tours again. They took me from, yeah, they took me from Sarajevo, and then we went down to Mostar, and then I actually continued on to Dubrovnik.

And so if somebody is doing a sort of Yugoslav, former Yugoslav road trip, you could just hop from tour to tour group to get you where you need to go. It's honestly not a bad way to go. You get the fun of being with other people and they're not terribly expensive those tours. So it's a great alternative if you don't want to rent a car

or just want to use them as a way to get to and from to and see a lot of amazing stuff on the way. Yeah, exactly. All right, Kat, I would love to do a lightning round with you of your favorite places in Sarajevo and you can have more than one answer and we can go slow if you want. So what is your favorite bakery?

I'm very partial to the one in the old neighborhood where the hostel was. Pecara student. It's in the Bielevae neighborhood. Not many people will wander up into the hillside for it. Second to it, Pecara, Eden. It's right on the tip of town by Sebel. Great bakery, local, great stuff. Can't go wrong with it.

What do you like to order? I'm partial to the Borek. I am a meat eater. But I do like the cheese-filled pastries as well. well and the sweets are fine. You've got some things filled with Nutella and neuro cream like that. I'm partial to the salty though. Oh, yes.

I like savory as well. And that's something interesting, I guess, because to an American ear, people, when they hear a bakery, I think they'll think very sweet. But in Bosnia, it's more savory, I think. Yeah, a lot more savory and basic breads. They do have a few sweets. But in general, if you really want cakes and donuts and things like that, you do need to go to a sweets shop, not a bakery.

What is your favorite coffee shop? Ministry of Chaf. Oh, I love that place. Speaking of people that have come here to do amazing things, this is a guy that he's originally from Bosnia, but actually grew up in Australia and learned a lot about coffee there. He came back home to his country, even though he had an opportunity to stay abroad and decided to invest here.

And that again is that story that we keep coming back to. I'm in love with the people that are investing here. And Ministry of Chaff supports local artist. They roast their coffee. they make it to the highest standards. And they're right in Bistcharcia with this cute little location as you walk up the hill, not very far up the hill. They're great. I recommend anybody to make sure to stop off to have a coffee there.

Yeah, their street actually has a lot of cool shops. I think it's one of my favorite streets. Do you know what's the name of that street? It's on Kovachi, but I'm not sure if that little side street is also called Kovachi. It connects to. Yeah, it will be in the show notes, everybody. Yeah. For anybody who's looking for it, you know that.

that pigeon square, that fountain that everybody meets at, start there, turn your back to it, walk up the hill, and you'll bump right into it. It's not hard to find. Yeah, and there is a tea house right next door, and the guy who owns that is like such a trip. I've never met such a character. His English isn't the best, but he speaks like five other languages, and so I was able to chat to him in Italian. That's a cool place. The name of that place is called Chajanitsa Jirillo, and he is a local legend, also has phenomenal. tea and you can even get salop which is an Ottoman Empire drink, an orchid root tea. It tastes more like pudding. Liquity, wonderful, warm pudding. It's phenomenal. Definitely worth off a stop too and to meet him. He's he's a character in a good way. Yeah, you have to. Yes, definitely in a good way. And we had mentioned those copper pots and there was a shop there by this woman named Nermina,

think she was like one of the very few female coppersmiths and she inherited her shop from her family. I think it's a 200 year old workshop. It's one of Saria Bo's oldest. And I will have the name of her shop in the show notes as well. But yeah, that's like a great little collection of shop owners. I love And it's actually, if you go around before sunset, you can just keep going up that hill. And that's where you get to the yellow fort, where you can watch the sunset. Yeah, it is a hot track beyond it during your visit here. It is amazing that street, up it, down it, all around it, make it a must do. Where do you like to go for lunch?

We've already talked a little bit about Ashtonitzis, and I would definitely say hands down, every chance I get to eat lunch out. I head straight to Ashtonica, Hajibaitch. It's on the same street as ASDZ, just a little bit closer to Sebel. I like them a little bit better because of the cozy atmosphere. It will honestly be just you and probably about 10 old men ordering the food from the day. It's great. It's much smaller, much cozier, great food, everything fresh.

Also run by women. Oh, that's great. There was just one more thing I wanted to mention about the coffee. So in Sarajevo, the coffee culture is, at least for the young people's turning more international and I think espresso and like what you're going to get at Ministry of Chaf. It's going to be like what locals are drinking now, but you can still get an old-fashioned Turkish coffee if you want. You can get Bosnian or Turkish coffee there.

You can get it also at Chajanacit Zadrillo. It's not hard to find in town, but you can also have some choice for more modern-style drinks if you've already had a few Bosnian coffees and don't want to stick with them the whole stay. Yes, Bosnian coffee. I think is that the same thing as Turkish coffee? It's just called Bosnian coffee? The variations are very, very minor. Okay.

It's basically Turkish coffee. Locally, there were some differences in how they made it. Realistically, to these days, there's not really that many differences left. There's probably a few experts that would argue the point. They're pretty similar. And then it's like tradition, I think, if you're having a Turkish coffee to have a Bosnian delight, which I think is the same thing as Turkish delight. It is.

You're not exactly right. Even a lot of times of Bosnian coffee, you get a Turkish delight. They come together hand in hand. Nice experience. And if you even lucky enough, a grandma nearby will reach your fortune out of the coffee grounds. Oh, yeah. All right. I'm coming back to Sarba.

Just for that. But there was a place in the old town called Boutique Bottom, which had good Bosnian delight. That was pretty tasty. And a lot of other really great sweets and roast nuts, things like that. They're a great stop. Where do you like to go for dinner? I'm really partial to that pizza on the road.

But if I am going to sit down and have a nice dinner, I like to go to DeVary downtown. It's a cute little atmosphere, wood furniture, real cozy home feeling. And they have just good local dishes, a couple of international ones on the menu. But they have a limited menu that they focus on just the best. It's not a problem per se. There's a lot of places that just have a general menu and they're not that good. What was the name of that pizza place that you like so much? Mahir's bakery.

It's actually not a pizza place. There's nowhere to sit. They don't have any tables. It's literally just a bakery and that's pretty much all they make. They have a few breads on the side, but they're best known for their pizza. They do it Bosnian style. So it's a normalish kind of pizza, but then they put the Bosnian dried beef on it and that Kaimak that I mentioned with the cream cheese.

They put it all together on the pizza, so it does have a Bosnian flare to it. And that is the pizza. It's not a place where you get to choose what you put on your pizza. It's the pizza or it's no pizza. Okay. It's my ears of it. Another picnic option, like if you wanted to pick up some stuff, is at Sarajevo City Market, which I would have just walked right by.

It just looks like a beautiful yellow building on the outside. But if you go inside, you can buy cheeses, you can buy needs, and then just go to a pecaro, which is their word for bakery. and bring all of your little supplies up to the... It's very easy to get a roving pastry. It's very easy to get a roving lunch. Stopping for the meat market. You've got the open-door, open-air,

vegetable market called Mar-Calat. You have the pet carters everywhere. You can even get your snacks and sweets from Boutique Badam. You will eat well just from the roving on the street. I think you told me that in Ottoman times, there was a rule that said, Ottoman cities had the principle that every man should be within walking distance of a mosque, a water source, and a bakery.

Yes, that is true. That's how the Ottomans built their cities. And because of that, you as a guest here in the city, if you're in the old part of town, are always within a walking distance of a mosque, a bakery, and a water source. An amazing thing in Saraje, but the water that we have in the city is quite fresh, great to drink. So you can also just go to the mosque. They always have fountains there and fill up a water bottle. No need to buy tons of things.

You can just get one water bottle, fill it up on the rest of the time. It's amazing fresh water. In front of the Gazi Herssev Beg Mosque, if you drink the water there, legend has it that she'll always return to the city. Oh, I wonder if I drink water there. I'm sure you do. For people who are unfamiliar with mosques, and they want to visit, what etiquette do you have? Let's say me as a female, I want to go and visit. mask, one of the mosques. So in general, of course, you should be covered if possible. The main

mosque in the area was not very specific. If you want to enter the mosque itself into the women's section, you do need to cover. But if you just go into the courtyard, you can get a lot of photos and have a tour as long as you're not in something too skimpy. They're quite open. You don't have to have your head covered. Most of the other small mosques around the city should be a little bit more respectful. They're not aiming towards being friendly to tourists. And it is very appropriate to cover your head and your shoulders, not going with shorts, but have longer pants. As a woman, and as a man, they kind of discourage shorts, but as a man, you can probably get away with anything you're wearing. So just to note on that one, do not intermosters during prayer time.

It's not very respectful. And even straight forbidden in most places. But if it's a prayer time, there are ways to kind of look into the mosque through the windows. You can get an impression of what that is like without disturbing the people who are actually praying. Okay. Thank you. What's your favorite place to hang out at night? Kino-Pasna. We talked about it, but it's still true. It is specifically a Monday night place. A few other nights that we can go and have a beer. Mostly for Monday nights. If I'm out and about in town on other nights, I generally aim towards smaller bars. Nothing that's special, just a place where I've got some friends to me. Do you have any specific bar? Minian. I spent a lot of time there, but it's not particularly special in anything except that it's near my neighborhood where I currently live and beer prices are quite good. Should anybody try to? find it at the Sarajevskop. It is on the main tram street across from Hastanah Park, and the beer is 1.8 marks.

It's a good price. There's some other place that's kind of popular, I want to say that fish is in the name. Oh, Dwaribara. It's not one that I often find myself in, to be honest. It's not made for tourists. It's a nice place. It's a very small place.

Everything is gilded in gold, antiques decorating the whole room. It's beautiful. definitely worth a stop in. For me, I don't go there as much because it's a little bit crowded, and I always feel like I need to be proper somehow. You know, it's not, it's not a really, the ravelly sort of place. It's the first drink of the night, not the last. Okay. And so for designer shop, we've already mentioned that Zana's shop is our absolute fave. Yeah, but, well, you know what's cool? It's the fave, but in the last two years, maybe three, there's now five or six designer shops in town. It's not just limited to Baza Jamb,

There's Basurjan, there's Kucha. There's this new place called Galleria Uli Puli Beha. It's a mouthful, but they have really nice stuff. So if you come, look down the little streets on the different sides, and you're going to see a lot of design shops that popped up. Yeah, and as we mentioned before, it's really great when you can support the local people because, you know, you'll see some shops like I went to one shop,

and I think they were like exclusively making brushes, like by hand, which I just thought was a really cool family, a business. Yeah, you know, it's coming, but we're not a Walmart country. There's no Walmart. There's no IKEA. So people don't do one-stop shopping. If you want something specific, you go to the store that sells the specific thing. It's slower, but it's so much richer because you actually get to interact with the guy that makes a thing

instead of just getting a bunch of cheap stuff from China. Yeah, the shop that I mentioned, or, yeah, that brush shop, it's on the street. called, Be Prepared for the Butcher to Name. This is Medsilock Street. It's where all the shoemakers worked like 400 years ago. I'm not exactly sure to pronounce that one either, but you didn't get it quite right. I'm sure.

It will be in the show notes. Do you have a favorite museum? I really like the War Childhood Museum. I know we've talked about wanting to focus on things that aren't just war-related. But again, that kind of desire of mind to support the locals who are doing a fantastic job. Yasminko, who started that museum, has got such a phenomenal idea. It's getting such great attention from around the world. And the surprising thing about the museum, war childhood sounds terrible and depressing and horrible.

And you think you just come out of their crying. It's really uplifting. You see the spirit of children just can't be killed that easily. The stories that you get are very intimate and they're hard to find anywhere else. So definitely war childhood museum is. is a must visit museum-wise. Yeah, I think that's a museum where there's 50 objects, and then there's like a little story next to each one.

And they're all local submissions. They curated the exhibition, but they didn't make up the stories or something. They're all given by residents as gifts to the museum. And then there's a few other museums dedicated to the war. There's the Museum of Crimes Against Humanity and Genocide, and then also something called Gallery 11-7-95. but I think they're all worth a visit.

It's something that you have to note locally. We don't have one big museum that kind of covers all topics. There's a lot of small displays, very topical-specific, just like the shops. No one stops shopping for museums. Take some time to browse as many as you can, as many as you have the energy for. But the life of the city is,

it's not a museum city per se. We have some really great ones. The best ways to get out there and try to meet some locals, have a seat at a bar, people are friendly. Yeah, yeah. Would you say that a lot of people speak English? Yes, it's very easy to get around with English. Even German.

German is just as easy. I think even you saw your Italian was useful. People are very educated here. Speak tons of languages. It's no trouble to communicate regardless of whether you speak the language or not. And you actually met your husband on your first day in Bosnia, I believe, right? Or in Sarajevo. Yep, first day in Sarajevo.

Where did you mean? A keynote, Bosnia. Everything is, the love is connected. It's a small place. Oh my gosh. That sounds so fun. And so I'm not saying it couldn't happen to you. It has happened to many other people.

Is there anything else that you wanted to mention when it comes to culture, theater, music, dance, anything like that? Because it is a small city, we don't have something going on every night of the week. But what does go on is quite interesting. There's a lot of theater at the same. National Theater, different types of programs. There's a war theater that doesn't have specifically war events. It was created then. Take a look at what's going on when you come. Go to Bay Cote, B, K, C, and look at the options. If you can get a chance to do something, theater, dance, whatever, while you're here in town, you're lucky, it's going to be great. If you can plan your time,

there's a cerebral film festival, and during that time in August every year, the city just goes mad with culture. I mean, there's literally films being shown in parks. There's live music, events, everything is full and busy at that time. So if you have the chance to come in August, please do so that you can see a lot more of the culture and a lot shorter period of time. Oh, yeah. That's definitely on my bucket list of things to do, is to get to the Cereo Film Festival. Did you go this year? I did. Yeah, that was great. I mean, every year they always get a good selection. There's so many different types of movies that you can pick what suits your taste. The open air is amazing. It's fun. It's hectic. It's crazy. Honestly, I would

recommend to visit the country in fall or spring when you can kind of have a more local experience and a little less hectic. But if you like hectic, if you like culture, that's the time to be here. Are there any culture tips that we should know about Bosnia before we go? In general, I would say, no, people are incredibly friendly. The lifestyle is very European, and so that, you know, there's some crazy things that go on, but that makes it the Balkans. That's what's fun about being here. People who show up to the city should be a little bit sensitive about the war.

I mean, whoever you're meeting undoubtedly remember something from it. So come with curiosity, not with opinions. Ask questions. Don't come and tell what your opinions are about the war. Because like I said, it's incredibly complex, and everybody's opinions and feelings are involved. So if you want to process what's happening with war, do that privately.

come here and ask questions and listen, don't talk. Great tips. And when it comes to tipping at restaurants or bars or like taxi, are there any rules around that? So it's not a tipping culture per se. You're meant to just kind of round up, don't be fussy or send you with the change. If it's 280, give three and don't expect to get 20 cents back. However, you're not expected to tip 20%. If you do, it will be welcome and well received, but it is not expected. Generally, I try to leave somewhere around 10%. But again, just to not be stingy with the change is the main code of law.

And there's not Uber or anything like that, right? You know, we're getting a lot more options for that. So honestly, by the time this hits anybody's ears, we probably will have Uber or some variety of it. A lot of the local taxi companies have apps now that you can order on apps. There's even Next bike, which has opened up in the last few months, that you can do easy bike rental around town. Plenty of great ways to get around. Taxis are cheap and affordable,

so it's not something that you have to be afraid that you're going to lose all your money to take a taxi. There's public transit. And my biggest recommendation, just walk. You learn the most and you see the most if you walk. If you limit yourself to the old town area, you're going to have everything with a walking distance to go a little bit further, jump in a taxi or a tram.

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time. I can't. where can we learn more about you? It is always a pleasure, first off. And if anybody's curious to see some of the stuff I'm making with the nature here, I'm doing specifically natural dye, the scarves. I'm online Instagram at KETI handmade, K-E-T-I-Hand-Made,

or check it out at Basurjan when you come in person. You can have a look at my stuff as well as the very worthy crowd of people that I am here aspiring to be like. Thank you so much, Kat. Yeah, no problem. It was nice to talk to you and I hope we will see you in Sarajevo soon. See you soon. Ciao.

All right. I'm sure this will not be the last time that I share something about Sarajevo and Bosnia with you. I truly love this city and I think you should definitely experience it for yourself. I have so much more that I want to say about the people I've met there, including Zana, the owner of the concept shop Basurjan. I actually recorded an interview with her when I was in. Bosnia, but I will save that for a time when I have more resources to do something bigger and more special with it. I admire the Bosnian people so much for their resilience, especially the roll-up your sleeve spirit of the women I met there who have rebuilt their lives after the Bosnian war.

And they pretty much had to do it all on their own. After World War II, the U.S. spent billions, more than 110 billion in today's money to get Western Europe back on its feet. with the Marshall Plan. Bosnia, on the other hand, was forced into an impossible political situation thanks to the Dayton Accords, which, as I mentioned, divided the country along ethnic lines, giving the majority of the territory to the Serbs and creating a government ruled by three presidents, all with separate administrations. I mean, we have enough problems in most countries with one administration, so imagine that. And another thing that happened after World War II was that Germany was forced to reckon with its past. Not so in Serbia and Bosnia. Instead, Bosnia

was split into those ethnic enclaves that I mentioned and convicted war criminals who ordered the death, torture, and humiliation of thousands are seen as war heroes in some of these places. In Serbia and the maturity serve areas of Bosnia, kids are actually raised to believe that genocide never happened, that it was actually the Serbs who were the victims of Muslims, and I don't want to end this episode on a sad note or to scare you off from visiting Sarajevo because it's one of the most intoxicating beautiful places you'll ever meet. But I feel compelled to mention the echoes of the past showing up in our world today. Like in cable news, networks that are fueling hate and fear 24-7 because it's just such an easy way to make a buck, because they know,

that fear hooks their audience. And then we've got politicians around the world who are uniting people against invented enemies, neighbors turning against each other, fake news, and people denying what's unfolding in front of their very eyes. I find myself asking, how can people believe in conspiracy theories that are so obviously wrong and go against rooms full of evidence? And so I looked up what researchers were saying about this, and they say, that conspiracy theories give people a sense of order in a chaotic world, a sense of community with those who share their beliefs, and it also satisfies narcissistic tendencies. So conspiracy theorists believe I'm privy to information that you don't have, and they are not swayed by facts and

evidence, and they dig in their heels when they are challenged. And what do we do about this? So it seems like such a scary, impossible problem to solve. It's like talking to a brick wall. So what can we do about this? All I can think of now is to question everything. If you hear a rumor, don't assume that it's true. Like, let's make sure we're not buying into these conspiracy theories. Question the source.

If someone forward to something conspiratorial or posted on Facebook and leads with, I don't know if this is true, but call them out on it. Like, why are you spreading these conspiracy theories? And finally, I've said this before, but I truly believe that travel is the greatest form of diplomacy. When we actually meet people who are not like us, we tend to be a lot more open-minded to challenge our beliefs, to realize that the way people are depicted on television is not always accurate, to fear less and love more. And I wish that every child and adult could experience this travel magic. So that is my great hope for the world.

All right, that was a long time. verbal essay from me in sum. Go to Bosnia. Get yourself to Sarajevo. You will not regret it. That's all for now. Thank you so much for listening and have a beautiful week wherever you are. Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free conversation sheet sheet with simple formulas that you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you're in a meeting or just talking with friends. Download it at sarahmicatel.com slash blank no more.