Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - Skopje, Macedonia: What to See and Where to Eat in the Land of Coffee & Kitsch

Episode Date: July 3, 2018

Hi, from Macedonia! Today I’m chatting with my Airbnb host, Sofia Grozdanova, who’s become my Macedonian sister. I’m sharing her apartment in Skopje’s bohemian district and I feel so at home in her place and in this neighborhood. And her room is $12 a night. What?! If you’re new to Airbnb, take advantage of my friends and family discount.   Sofia is from Skopje but she lived in New York for a few years, going to school and working. When she decided to come back to the Balkans, she was able to keep her job in NYC and now works remotely. So, she could work from anywhere but she chooses Skopje and in this episode we will discuss why, including all of her favorite places to eat and drink in Macedonia’s capital city, plus day trips such as the UNESCO town Ohrid. We’ll also talk about the crazy and corrupt Skopje 2014 redevelopment project, which has turned downtown into Vegas on steroids, and explain Macedonia’s (very controversial) potential name change. Check out postcardacademy.co for links and photos.    I’m your host, Sarah Mikutel. If you so desire, you can sign up for my newsletter here. And thank you so much for listening to this show. I know you’re busy and have many listening options, so it means a lot to me that you’re here. You are the best.   This podcast is brought to you by Audible. Not a member yet? Postcard Academy listeners can get a FREE audiobook and a 30-day free trial if you sign up via audibletrial.com/postcard   Airbnb will be matching donations to the International Refugee Assistance Project up to a total of $150,000 through September 30, 2018. If you’d like to donate, you can do so here.Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

Welcome to the Postcard Academy, your weekly travel and culture podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Megatel, and I'm talking to you from Macedonia. I'm on the road for the next few weeks without a proper microphone, so apologies for any rubbish sound quality. I had planned to publish my interview with Tony from Taze Florence today, but technology conspired against me, and so Tony and I will be re-recording another interview very soon. She is a saint, and I love her, and you will be very happy with our. interview once we do it again, I promise. Instead, today I am going to chat with my Airbnb host, Sophia. This week, I am sharing her apartment in Skopia's Bohemian District, and I feel so at home in her place

and in her neighborhood. Sophia is from Skopia, but she lived in New York for a few years, going to school and working. And when she decided to come home, she was actually able to keep her job, and so now she worked remotely and could really make her office anywhere. But she chooses Scopia, and in this episode we will discuss why, including all of her favorite places to eat and drink around here. I will include all the details on postcardacademy.co, so don't worry about writing anything down. You may have heard that Macedonia could be changing its name. I will be talking about the history of that, but first, this podcast is brought to you by Audible. Not a member yet. Postcard Academy listeners can get a free audiobook and a 30-day free trial if you sign up via

at audible trial.com slash postcard. Now into my conversation with Sophia. Well, hello, Sophia. Thank you for inviting me into your house. Hello, Sarah. Welcome to my home in Skopje. So you are from Scopia, but I believe that you lived and went to school

in New York for a few years. Yeah, I was back in Fort Scopia, New York, all the time, sometimes Germany, because my family is so over the globe. What made you decide to come back home? I actually came for my brother's wedding, and then I stayed for no reason, because actually there is a reason.

I like Macedonian way of life, Macedonian style. I like that we have more freedom, our cultural habits, so I kind of miss that in New York. I came and I stayed. Talk to me a bit more about that freedom and the cultural habits. What do you mean by that? I mean, in New York, I have my job, home, job, home. And in Macedonia, time is like more 8, 8, 8 hours you work, 8 hours you sleep,

and 8 hours you have time for cultural and social life. So, for example, you work in the mornings or you work afternoons. And then before that you have time to explore more of the town, going in a restaurant, do some activities. That's what I missed in New York. To get from one place to another takes me a lot of time. That's what I miss, and that's what I found in Skopje again. I think you kept the job you had in New York.

The job I had in New York, I was supposed to come back and start working again. Then I asked my boss if I can do it from this place where I am or whatever I go into earth. And he agreed and actually I'm very happy. Yes, because I think in Macedonia the average salary is like $500 a month or something. I'm not going to ask what you earn, but I imagine since you're working for a company back in the States that you get to earn more. but then live life at a Macedonian price.

But your hours are a bit difficult. Yeah, I work for a U.S. company. I work a regular New York time from 9 to 5 or 9 to much more than 5. And in Macedonia, speaking about the salary, if you work in Macedonian company and if you live here, the salary is like $300 to 400, the regular salary. A month, you mean? Yeah, for Macedonia citizens in Macedonia, I'm not talking about me, but I say in general.

For people who don't know where Macedonia is and where Scopeia is, could you just sort of like paint us a picture of where Macedonia geographically and then we'll get to what Scopeia looks like? Imagine yourself the map of the world, then imagine Europe and then imagine East Europe. There you have a little, very small country, that's Macedonia. We are located southeast centrally. Our neighbors are Greece. Most of you have heard about Greece and Serbia. And then we have Bulgaria and Albania on the other side. So we have like central position.

And I think there's about two million people here in Macedonia. It was one of the republics of former Yugoslavia. I think this is actually my last country in former Yugoslavia. I've been to all of them now. So it's been fun hanging out. out here this week. As far as what Scopia looks like, can we talk a little bit about scopia 2014? Scopje 2014 was the project of the government. Usually, somebody that lives in Skopje will say that Scopi has two sides. One is the very old with the tradition that we

inherited from our grandparents. You can see there the influence of the Ottoman culture, our Macedonian, everything that will resemble to the old Skopje, and there is the other part, the new part, that they tried to make its copy at 2014. They put a lot of statues. They changed architecture to something that Skopje is, that's not the real picture of scopje. We have so many monuments that they put, some of the people are important for Macedonian history, but some of them, they're totally unrelated. So that may have been a part from the old government to just collect money from the budget with no real historical importance for our country. I'm going to jump in here with some historical context of this region, because it's kind of

complicated what history isn't. A lot of people outside of Macedonia have never heard of this country, but it has been in the news a lot lately because it might actually change its name. Why? Because Greece has been pushing them to do this for years. Most of the world recognizes Macedonia by the name Republic of Macedonia. Greece definitely does not, and pretty much says that they own the rights to the name Macedonia. And they have a region in the north with that same name. Once upon a time, there was a kingdom of Macedonia, which started in present-day Greece. You've probably heard about Alexander the Great, the warrior who conquered the Persian Empire. His father was Philip, King of Macedon, and Alexander inherited the throne from him, after being raised a prince who

was actually taught by Aristotle. Alexander expanded the ancient kingdom of Macedonia well beyond Greece, all the way to India and fact. Historically, the area where I am now has been known as Macedonia for quite a while, but it's different than the ancient kingdom of Macedonia from Alexander the Great's time. When the Romans arrived, they called a large region of land here Macedonia, and this included both today's Greece and Macedonia. The Romans ruled for a few hundred years, and so today's Macedonians, mostly descendants of Slavic people, say, this has been the name since Roman times, so why won't Greece back off? And Greece claims that this is a territorial threat and that Macedonia wants to expand.

For most of its history, the Republic of Macedonia was occupied by other kingdoms, including the Ottomans for 500 years, which is why you will see such a Turkish influence around here. But as the Ottoman's power waned and other countries in the area like Serbia gained their independence, they banded together to kick the Ottomans out for good, and they did that in 1912. So after this, Bulgaria, Greece, and Serbia split up the rest of the Ottoman land. That included present-day Macedonia. Fast forward to the formation of Yugoslavia after World War II, and a specific area called Macedonia is carved out as one of its six-reports.

It's during this time that Macedonia is encouraged to have its own identity. After communism fell and Macedonia declared its independence in 1991, most countries recognized its new name, Republic of Macedonia. Greece does not want this name recognized, and they've pushed the UN to acknowledge a country only as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Greece has blocked Macedonia's applications to NATO and the EU, and in the 90s imposed sanctions that really hurt Macedonia's economy. This name argument has been going on for 27 years, but leaders of Greece and Macedonia

recently came to an agreement on a potential new name for Macedonia, the Republic of North Macedonia. I'm not really sure the logic of this, because that name still includes the hotly contested word Macedonia. There have been protests in both Greece and Macedonia about this, and this name change requires a vote by the people, and I highly doubt that they will agree to this. Macedonians have told me that another nation has no business telling them what they can call themselves. And they don't really care if that means they can't join the EU. If the EU doesn't want them, then fine. And Russia would love it if Macedony doesn't join NATO, and there's

evidence that they are provoking fights about this. So the Facebook wars continue on a global scale. A few years ago, Macedonia's top politicians, now facing corruption charges, launched a redevelopment plan for Macedonia's capital city, Skopia. The plan called Skopia 2014, which is still ongoing, was supposedly a job creator and a way to boost national pride and identity, as well as remote the city. If you meet a local here, they will likely tell you that this was a criminal waste of money that turned their downtown into a Vegas on steroids. You'll find fake pirate ships, a triumphal arch, other towering monuments and statues and new buildings, plus buses that resemble London's double-deckers and copies of other city's icons. Existing buildings have new facades to make them seem more historical,

but that really give them the look of suburban shopping malls trying to be fancy. To be fair, it's not like they were knocking down ancient buildings because most of Skopje was destroyed during a 1963 earthquake. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on Skopjean 2014, and with 30% unemployment, residents say this is ridiculous. What's more controversial is the 72-put statue of Alexander the Great, plus those of his father and mother. The statues don't have their names. Alexander's statue is officially known as Warrior on a horse,

but everyone knows who that is supposed to represent, a tie to the past that some say is legitimate and that others say is not. Macedonians were so ticked off at the price tag of all this that they protested and through the corrupt government out of office. The country is now stuck in an identity crisis since foreign policy magazine. Authorities would prefer to emphasize Macedonia's role in Western antiquity, which they see as a key component in its rivalry with Greece. race. While many Macedonians say they see their heritage in the Slavic Byzantine history of the

9th century, which produce saints like Cyril and Methodius, not world-conquering men on horseback, end quote. Also, Macedonia is made up of a quarter-ethnic Albanians who say they're not represented at all in these redevelopments. And so that's just another reminder that we are not our governments. And when we talk about what Greece wants or what Macedonia wants, we're often talking about what leadership wants and not the men and women on the ground. There is another part of Skopje that it's hours, ours, like Macedonia. This is the De Barmalo neighborhood. Most of the people that usually lived here in the past were people that belong to nice

families, intellectuals, with their special way of life, there's habits. They respected the 888 rules. We are kidding all the time about that 8-8-8-8 rules, eight hours of sleep, eight hours of social life, and eight hours of work. Is that this neighborhood where we are right now? Yeah, this is this neighborhood. If you walk around, you will see we have still small houses with our architecture. There are plenty of restaurants that will serve national food.

Nothing like the news copy. If you see, and if you have picture from this part of Skopje and if you have from Skopje 2014, you will never say it's the same town. So I think Skopi has that ability to surprise you. Yes, so we're in, you also called it like the Bohemian neighborhood, which for me, I feel so lucky that I ended up here because this definitely seems like it's the best neighborhood in Skopje so far. So I'd say if you want to have a small tour in Skopje, just walk through the new part.

Or Scopje 2014ies, then go in the old bazaar, and then just come back to the Bar Mala, to this Bohemian quarter. So going back to the Ottomans, so they were here for like 500 years, I think. They were here for 500 years, and they definitely, you can tell that by the influence. They left on the architecture, way of lives, habits, many, many things you can imagine that will affect everyday life. So can you talk more about those habits and culture that they've influenced? We prepared the coffee the same way.

We celebrate the same when somebody gets born, when somebody dies. We have carpets all over our place. That's not the case with my apartment. But the most important is that relations we have with our family, You're going to see and meet a lot of people in Macedonia that are so close with the families and the family pride. That may be funny for somebody that lives in the U.S., but here and in Turkey we have a special accent on the family pride. Everybody takes care of what they do in order not to hurt the family pride.

So even though the adamant were here for so long, most people here are not Muslim. In Bosnia, they are Christians, Orthodox Christians. Yeah. Okay. And... Just like Greece. It's just like Greece. I mean, we have the same religion.

Same truth. Sometimes we have the same habits which is logical, of course. We are both loud nationalities, loud people, loud nationalities by the way we talk, by the way we behave. And there are also Macedonians that live. still in the I again part, including my boyfriend's family. What I wanted to say is that in Thessalonique, you have University of Macedonia, university, I think, of Philippe of Macedon. So, yeah, it's obvious.

Everybody wants to call themselves Macedonia, and neither of the sides is ready to say, hey, okay, we're both Macedon. We cannot acknowledge this. We want to call ourselves Macedonia. They want to call themselves. It's like a conflict that it's not so easy to solve. So we're in the old town. The Adaman said, what are some places there that we should be checking out?

Yeah, you're usually going to find it under the name Charcia. We call it, hey, let's meet in Charcia, which is like everybody knows where Charcia is. First, you're going to see the old architecture. And then everybody, so every place is old architecture. Then there is an interesting street. We call Gold Street. there is a habit when new person, usually a woman, when there is a wedding, we buy gold. It's either gold coins or gold jewelry.

So usually the mother of law will take the bride and maybe we'll take the son and some mother of the family and they will pick up gold for the new shiny bride. And also everybody in the family that is invited on the wedding will buy her gold. So there are weddings that she wears like a scarf, a long scarf. And everybody brings gold. And she's covered with gold from her shoulders to her toes. That's the tradition. Sounds very expensive to get married here.

It's nice for the bride, though. I think they're so lucky. What do you recommend to your Airbnb guests that they do when they're here? First, when they come, I recommend to see the Museum of Mother Teresa. As many of the people that come in Skopje, in general in Macedonia, I don't know that Mother Teresa was born in this town. Her name is actually Gonja Boiagio. Gonja Boiagio, she was born in Albanian family in Macedonia

before she started her mission in India and other countries. And then I would recommend them, since they're on that part of the river, I would recommend them to see the old railway station museum. That was destroyed 63 by the huge earthquake that happened in Skopje. That's a beautiful old building. there are many interesting facts that you can see about the earthquake. It completely destroyed the town. Many of the families, they went to live in other cities, other countries,

and some of them actually stayed and rebuilt the new town. So after we see that, then we're going to be wandering through some of the massive new monuments that have been put up like the Triumphal Arch and the Warrior on the Horse. The warrior on the horse is actually Alexander the Great. The statue of Alexander and then the other one of his dad, they're like massive, massive and they're new. But they're not called Alexander the Great because they didn't want to like totally take off Greece who they claim that Alexander is only there. What does Alexander mean to the people of Macedonia? The people that live in Mastania, including me.

We call ourselves sons of Alexander the Great. That is kind of our pride. We're proud to call ourselves sons and daughters of Alexander the Great and Philip of Macedon. So Alexander the Great, he made Macedonia a huge territory. Okay, I want to buy something to remember Skopje by. What should I buy? Skopje or in general, Macedonia. I think...

I there, both. I think if you want to remember Macedonia, You should buy, we have wonderful filigre that either jewelry or a painting, but they will do it with a wire that's either silver or gold. Or it's very popular to buy filigre as jewelry, since that's a very beautiful technique learned in Macedonia. And so, yeah, you can make it either a filigre, either jewelry or a painting. And also more Macedonian will be if you buy a filigre with ruby. There is a special stone called Macedonian ruby, and it's not like the ruby you are buying all over the world.

It's found in pre-lap, and only three companies in Macedonia have right to use that stone. So I would recommend to buy jewelry with Macedonian ruby, or also I would recommend you to buy Macedonians handmade and hand-wven rocks that's so colorful. Usually that's tradition from our great-grandmothers. When somebody goes in new family, the bride, when somebody gets married, she makes from her 16-year or maybe before rocks and she takes in her new family. Wow.

So a girl had to spend like years and years weaving these rugs to go to her new family? Not only that. she had usually the wedding dress many years ago were not the white and spectacular dress that you're going to see they were they were made from hair of the ship specially made they were so heavy to have them on and depending on the area in macedonia for example scopje we call it narodna nocia something that folks will wear and she had to spend many years as well decorating her wedding dress and every area in Macedonia has special way of decorating scopia has one way ochrit has one way and the one fan funny fact there is also one area in macedonia gallichnik that's also a very

important event that we have galichnik wedding swatbatana galichnik it usually takes two days in july and they are married as they were married before with that special way of dressing with those special costumes and everything. So it sounds like the women really deserved getting all of that gold once she finally got married. Absolutely she did. But nowadays a younger generation seems like doesn't want to expand that tradition. So they will just cut those in traditions. We usually, many years ago, they usually had weddings with all the relatives you can imagine. Like that would be 400, 300, many, many relatives, and now they're switching to more modern approach to that situation. Like, 50 people, that's enough by everyone. I guess people have other expenses now,

because they're not just going to live with their in-laws. They probably have, like, their own house and have other things they need to spend money on besides a big wedding. I don't know, what do you think? Yeah, yeah. In many years ago, they used to leave many managers, generations in a family and living the family would mean like disaster what are you ruining the family but now nobody wants to live with their mother and father-in-law so young people are moving and maybe that's why that's the main reason why they cut all those traditions and mark is unnecessary so they're still close to their families here but they just don't necessarily want to live in the same house in general macedonians are very close to their families and

You're not going to see many people that will celebrate Easter alone or some other holiday alone. We used to say, we say actually all the time in good and in bed and in every situation together with the family. What are some traditional Macedonian foods? Because I know it's influenced by like so many different cultures that have been here over the centuries. In general, Macedonian is meat iteration. But I think you should eat definitely. It's Macedonian taftche grafche. It's like an interesting meal with beans, prepared on special ways, peppers, sausage, and many variations.

Probably the way they are made makes them so delicious in old clay pots, small pots. And then you can add the topping or dressing to make them more interesting, but that's the original, like baked beans. That's the original. It's called tafche grafje. Then we have ivar. It's like a nut and topping that you can put it either on the pepper or on the bread or you just can eat it like that with cheese. Wait, so tell me more about the ivar red pepper spread because you told me that everyone makes it in September. September is probably the hardest month for the households.

Not many people in Macedonia are used to buy food. to buy food, we usually want to make our own, even if that's growing veggies in our garden. And in September, usually in October, begin of the October, Macedonian woman will go on the bazaar and pick the most beautiful red peppers they have. Sometimes they're going to buy tomatoes to mix for the Iver or spiced peppers, and then there is a process. We have to make sure we extract what's inside. So then we use a huge pot. You haven't seen such a thing. It's so huge.

It's like half of the fridge, half of the normal fridge you have in your household. Usually around 50 to 100 kilograms. That's for the family. We also put there all the peppers. We add salt. We add some spices if we want to either to be more spiced. I mentioned oil and then we, how do you say? Yeah, all the time.

all the time that that will do for a few hours or maybe a day and then our grandmothers usually your mother's taste we will collect it in jars and we will have iver for every season that will come we usually eat iver from october till till the end of the year till october till we make it again i had some in the old town area it was really tasty oh i forgot we have also one popular thing in Macedonia we call it Gjomleza. So it's like many, it's prepared also on special way. Not many Macedonians food you will find are prepared in oven or microwaves. Almost none of them.

We have special ways we prepare. There are specially prepared pancakes. One layer over another, over another. And then you have like six layers. It may take up to six hours to prepare this dish, but it's huge and it's super delicious. And then... Is it savory or sweet? No, it's savory. You can make it sweet, but nobody will eat it. We usually eat it with yogurt, and then they cut it. They have special pattern of cutting. Everybody will know that's Giamles. You just cannot cut it in Mickey Mouse or flower shape. You just have to cut it like your grandmother did.

There's also a salad that's really popular in this region. Is it? Shopska salad, yeah. It's very popular. We eat it almost every day. It has a cute. cucumbers, tomatoes, onions, and cheese. It's simple, but it's so popular. Is that similar to what Greeks would say is the Greek salad? Is this another warring thing? Greeks call, I think Greeks put pepper as well and the Greeks will cut the cheese like squares and will just put random around. What about the wine? I think you said that you guys make your own wine as well. the people that live in smaller towns, not in Skopje's copia is too urbanized, but the people that live in old smaller towns like Kavadarci, Ohrid, or whatever, usually every household has a vineyard,

and when it's time to collect the grape, it's time to make the wine. The first time, yeah, that's my point. Almost every family in smaller towns produces wine and rakea. Vino and rakea, they're popular Macedonian drinks. What's rachia for people who don't know? Rakea is colorless. It's colorless liquid that's made from grapes after the process of making wine. Actually, not only from the grape, depending on the fruit you're going to use, that's called rakea.

For example, you have grozdova. It's made from the grape. It basically says grape rakea. Plum rakeia, depends, peach rakea. You have many types. It depends on the creativity. And what type of rakea you want to have? Generally, in my family, my mother and my granddad, they make the wine from the grape.

They make a few types of wine. And then after them, my grandmother will collect all the leftovers and she will make rakea. Does she make any kind of flavor? Is it just plain? she she makes usually the grape rakea and then there is another type she makes she needs a lot of time to collect the walnuts and then from the how do you say from the outside part of the walnut from the core the shell she makes a special special rakea it's it has usually rakea will have colorless will look colorless

like colorless liquid and this one has black color because of the walnut shelves and also we are kidding all the time in Macedonia whatever that's Rakea is universal you can use it to clean your windows

you can use it if you feel bad you can use it if you are hurt but that's true actually and this one the black rakea she makes from the walnuts and grape it's so good for your respiratory system them. You don't use medicine. So you can use it for medicinal purposes. So is she teaching you how to make

all of this stuff? She said she will. Probably she will. They came recently like five years ago from Germany and she's fully dedicated to her new job. A full alchemist. We call her alchemist in my home. Alchemist. Yes. Yeah. So every family. in Macedonia makes the wine. Could you talk more about kaffana? What is kaffana? Kaffana is kind of, when somebody enters says it's kind of restaurant. That's not like a normal restaurant. You will go and the waitress will ask you and serve you all the time. It's like more casual place to be.

Usually people go after work or for no reason. They will just gather themselves with the friends and go. There is a place with traditional food. It usually doesn't have fancy decor. It has Macedonian traditional woven racks. You will eat in maybe in clay pots, more connected to the tradition. You're not going to see fancy wine from $55 or champagne because you will drink Iraqi and wine. That's Macedonian. And is there music at these places?

Usually you have old, yeah, usually you have music, Macedonian music, old Macedonian music. Macedonia was agricultural country many years ago. So while they were working, started to sing songs to make their job easier for the day because they're working with the clay, with the plants, with everything. So they usually start a song and sing it all day to make their work to seem more easy and the day to pass faster. Do you want to sing a song?

Let me think. Wow, you have any beautiful Wow, you have a song was that, what was the significance of that? The song is the Macedonian girl. It says, you have a beautiful voice. You should be in the kafanas walking around. What song was that? What was the significance of that?

The significance is the call the names of the song, It says, Macedon's Godoichikasharena. Macedonian girl flower bouquettes with many flowers diverse, very colorful, and then there is a song, there is a voice in the song asking if there is better girl, more prettier, more wonderful girl than Macedonia. And then other voice says, no, there is no, and they will never be born. So we're hanging out in the kaffana in the evening. That sounds like a really fun place to be.

Where else do you like to go out in the city? Probably somewhere in the old town I would have some Turkish food some traditional food I will mix with some Turkish drink I will have Rakhia you want to know the place where I want to go Yeah sure

Okay so depending on the day or if it's not a weekend There is a K-8 Key 8 is my favorite place to be in the old town It's like a small intimate coffee place There is a part at the front where you can sit and have lunch, but there is also the part of the behind.

And not many people will go there because not many people know that it's like a hidden gem. It's just so quiet and not many people will get there. So you can have your coffee and ice cream and have peace of mind that it's impossible to find another place in Skopje. Okay. So before we get to day trips from Skopje, what are some other,

either hidden gems or museums or anything else that we should see in the city. As I mentioned, the old railway museum, Museum of the National History, National Fighting Macedonia. What else? Yeah, yeah, definitely you should see. We call Skopskokale. It's like the fortress. The fortress, when you see from downtown,

looks like the crown of Skopje. It's on the hill. It's so beautiful. So I think that was started by the Romans, but then the Ottomans really built it up, but then it sort of crashed in the 1963 earthquake. But the Yugoslav army before then was using it to house weapons. And there's a cross and a cable car,

like a giant cross that's bigger than the Jesus and Brazil, because all of the monuments here have to be bigger than the other monuments. It's like on the top of the hill, top of Vodno. I think everybody likes the cross. How do we get there? Catch. No, that's the other bus. It says it goes to Millennium Cross.

From Skopje to Millennium Cross. The mountain in Vodno is like a very popular place in Skopje, together with the Barmala. You have to catch a bus and then you have to make sure to get up to the begin of the cable car, and then take a ticket, if you want to get there so fast, or know there are paths that we can lead you go through the trees up. It has spectacular view on Holoscopje. It's pretty easy to get there.

How do you like to spend a day off? I know you work a lot, but... Usually Sundays and Saturdays. Saturday is my favorite. I get up around maybe 10 or 11 o'clock. then Saturday's Treat myself Day of course I don't cook

I will go usually in the old town and I have as a breakfast I will have lachmajun and yogurt what's the lachmajun is like a Turkish recipe it's a pancake with meat and then with

carrots lettuce or whatever they put depends every restaurant has different recipe and then I will have yogurt and maybe coffee afterwards, I will take my personal belongings and go to Kapanan. Kapanan, as I mentioned before, it's my place where it mixes all architecture with the new spirit.

It's nothing special, but it's a very inspirative place for me to be. All those black huge windows, all Turkish architecture located in the heart of the old bazaar. Okay, this is the cafe that you like. K8, K8 is the cafe. it I like. Okay. Depends on the day on the crowd, I will choose different places to try this Lachmanjun. Okay.

And then after I'm done with eating, I will go to this cap anon. I usually have my coffee there since it's not crowded. And it's like a place located in the central of the old bazaar. When you see it from outside, it has square shape, huge square shape. There are only two entrances from the other side, from one side, from the old bazaar. opera and from the bottom and you enter there you can have your coffee smoke nargile do many things somebody uses there as a place to write songs to write in their diaries to meet some people but i usually go there and myself to recharge my batteries and then after there um i may have trip to matka

take the bus number 60 from whatever i am in the scopia uh it it takes It takes me 45 minutes to get to Matka. Then I will just walk a little bit around the place that I walkable. Be careful if you go in the summer. There are many snakes. I usually dance on those pads when I'm walking. And last time I was dancing with my friend from Washington. She came to visit.

We were jumping and dancing and then we saw two snakes. So open your eyes. So you were dancing just for fun. I thought you were saying you were dancing to scare away the snakes. No, we were dancing for fun. And then I was usually going, and I was going to step on the snake. That's terrifying. And I actually almost went up there today.

And now I'm glad that it was raining all day and that I did not go because my phobia of snakes is preventing me from doing a lot of things. My phobia from snakes is preventing me as well to swim in the lake and do many things. But in Matka, I realize how friendly they are. Oh, no. Okay, so if we go up there, we can hike, we can take a boat. We can kayak. That's what I usually do. I leave my important personal belongings in my home, and then I will just have comfortable

clothes and go kayaking there. It's wonderful. In Scopee, if the temperature is 30, 50, 40 degrees, in Matka is 10 degrees less. So it's wonderful. Yes. So, and Macedonia is in a landlocked area. And so it's these lakes that people go to to relax and cool off a bit. And could you talk a little bit more about Ohrid?

And because that's a UNESCO site. That's a few hours bus ride, I think, from Skopje. What can people find there if they do a day trip or a weekend there? Ohrid is so important. It has been inhabited more than four years before century before Chris till now. All the time. It's the center of civilization, architecture and many, many other things. It's cultural center basically for Eastern Europe. As you said, that's true. It's protected by UNESCO. It's one of the world's most. important towns and cultural places. I have so many things to say about Dohery that I don't know where to start. There is also a fortress as the one in Skopje. We call it Kale. It comes from the

Turkish word Kale, which means fortress as well. Usually the fortress are made on the top of the hill and it makes sense because from the top of the hill it's visible every enemy that may want to hurt the king or the people that live on that area. And When Tsar Samuel, that's our king, Tsar, is kind of title for king. So when he was searching for a place, for a highest point to build their fortress, he was going on a hike.

And a hill in Macedonia is Ryd. That's the name for Macedonia word. Rit. And he was hiking, hiking, and he was so tired when he got on some point. He said, oh, Ushedden Rit, oh, Rit. And he said, oh, another hill. Oh, Rit. So that's the history of Macedani of the fortress.

So that's how the town got its name, because he was complaining. He was tired. Kind of, yeah, but we have so many legends how the name was made. That's like the funniest we want to tell everybody. So what churches or palaces or maybe castles should we visit there? Oh, it has 365 churches for every day of the week, not just of the year. I'm so sorry. not only the city itself, but there are surroundings, the villages, the other neighborhoods.

Ohrid as well has two parts of the town. One is the new town. We don't have that many monuments, and one is the other town, the old town. We like to call it Varos. It means like old place, old village. You should definitely, O'Hrit is walk a ball area anyways. You don't need to catch a bus to go from one place to another. We don't have subway. It's pretty simple to get around. I would recommend to go from Upper Gate. That's like gate as well from the fortress. Do some sighting, a round trip in the fortress. And then they will go down to the St. Pentelemon Church.

Pantelemon Church, we call it. It doesn't have any actual translation in English. Panteleimon or St. Clement. That's the place where the old university, I think 9th century, when they were archaeological research, they found there and old Christian basilica from the 5th century. It's very popular. It has amazing view on the lake and it's very peaceful, very beautiful energy.

From St. Pentelemon Church, you can walk all the way down. Actually, it's all like a small circle. You're going to walk down and you're going to see Kaneo Church. Kaneo is the name of old fisherman's village. It's on a huge rock and there is also a swala church. Then from down you can continue in the old town. You're going to see the bridge of the wishes. We call it Mostot Nashelbite.

Bridge of the wishes. It's by the lake. Walking out, walking from the bridge of the wishes, you're going to see the San Sofia Church. San Sofia is not in a function for church or religion. Something to do with the religion is more like nowadays. It's more like a museum. people usually go there and we have concerts or some exhibitions and then you can continue up to the old ancient theater

it's interesting that it was made I think 2,000 years ago every year is held Macedonia Ohrid Summer Festival which is a traditional event in Macedonia many years it's a music festival it's one of the most important events in Macedonia Wow, well, I can tell that you love this place. Are there any restaurants or anything there that you could recommend? I would recommend a Dalga restaurant. It's on the bay on the shore of the lake.

They have exceptional service and also I would recommend you to eat fish. Ohrid Lake is like huge. I don't know. Some people call it Ohridze. Germans usually call it O'ridze. It's like O'Hritzee. We have special fish, Belvita and Pastramka. There are two types of fish, very popular.

There is season of the year where you can hunt and eat that fish. In other seasons is prohibited. And, yeah, I would recommend to eat one of those fish, or eel, ale, but that's hard to find almost impossible. What about the town, is it Birola? Bittola? Bittola. Would you recommend that somebody go to Bittola if they're here in Macedonia for a week?

If you, yeah, I would recommend definitely. My three picks, top picks will be Skopje, O'Hrit and Bittola. There is also a museum dedicated to Kemal Mustafaata, the father of modern Turkey. And I would recommend also to check that museum and see the letter that his girlfriend wrote to him. It's so beautiful story. She saw him only once and she felt in love. But the latter has so many emotions, you all think she loved him forever. Could you tell us more about that love story?

Do you know it? She felt in love and her parents, because of the different religion, did not allow them to be together. And then I think he moved to Istanbul. And from the day she saw him, her parents closed her in the room and she never stopped loving him. She says, I think, in the letter, till the days that my eyes will dry. I will love you and kind of like that. And they never got together.

Of course. Maybe she left him so much because of that. She never actually get to meet him closer. Exactly. You always want what you can't have. What else is there to see in Bittola? We call it city of consuls. There are many consuls from different countries that used to live there.

And people that live in Bittala, they have, I would say, different style than every other people in Macedonia. I have a grandmother that live. there and she is since I know for her like since forever she's so well dressed she has always her hair done and usually people will dress so well and they will go on the um they call it corzo it's like place they walk it's like a walk runway but every regardless to the to the age to the gender they will all dress so well and go there so that's macedonia's cosmopolitan city i guess it's very cosmopolitan and open-minded. Okay.

Lightning round of favorite places in Scopia. Do you have a favorite bakery around here? I would taste Silbo because they have really good pastries. Everybody in Skopje, after going around, it works 24-7. And whatever you go this night, there is bigger chance to meet your crush in Silbo than in other place in the town. So everyone's going to buy their bread and Silbo? Not maybe bread, but only.

after a night out, everybody meets in Zilbo. Okay. What are the drunk foods that people eat in this area? What are they buying at Silbo? I think Silbo Gavrek is like the most popular. People are fighting. No, give me two. Give me three. Give me five.

It's so popular. I think my favorite thing about here is the coffee culture. And in the Spokubian area, there's just so many cafes in the tree-lined area. What are your favorite cafes here? I said K-8. that's in the old bazaar but if i have to choose in my neighborhood i will probably go to canteen or zaffir that's like a place in debarmalo bohemian neighborhood it's intimate area not so huge i would usually combine my coffee with some sweets also very funny thing in macedonia

that not in scopia maybe but in the other areas there is a tradition of drinking coffee we usually drink Macedonian or Turkish coffee, prepared on special way. It's not an instant coffee. It's made from beans, freshly roasted beans. And then you're just going to gather your neighbor. We usually drink coffee with our neighbors. You're going to say, hey, it's my turn today to make you coffee and they will call you the other day. I love that because I never know who my neighbors are ever. Neither do I. Even if I live in Macedonia, neither do. Even if I live in Macedonia, do I? I hope it's not one of those traditions that's fading because I think that's an important thing to know who your neighbor is. Yeah, in Skopje, life is more urban. They're always in a rush to go

somewhere, to be something, to meet somebody. So they don't dedicate that much time to these traditions, but in other places in Ohrid, I know exactly who my neighbors are. And that's what we usually do when I go there. We call each other for coffee. When I was, coming here, I kept hearing how cheap Macedonia was like, oh my gosh, it's such a cheap country. For food, yes. And like coffee, so it's really fun to go out and you can just splurge on your meals. It's actually cheaper, I think, than going to the grocery store and making your food. But clothes and like if you want to buy physical products, like electronics and stuff, that's actually not at all cheap here. We buy a lot of, we pay a lot of taxes, so that's why you're having brands like Zara or mango

or whatever can come up on your mind. It's so expensive. But there is also cheap alternative. We call Shutka. It's a huge open bazaar for clothes. They usually sell new clothes 100% of the time. But it's more like a bazaar. Open shops.

So that's super cheap. You can find a dress, nice dress for like $4, $5. That's nothing. Where is that around here? When you catch bus number 16, you're going to go all the way to the last station. You're going to get off to the last station. Shutka.

Everybody calls Shutka. Okay. What's your favorite place to have lunch? It's hard. I have so many favorite places. Tell us a bunch. Okay, I will tell you. First, my pick will be Denevenpreste, that's Kaffana.

When I have people I care about and I want to have just nice time, I go there. and I usually order kebapy or grafche tafece or whatever. And then my peak will be canteena. It's like more a place to go with friends. You have some sandwich, some maybe pasta or I don't know. Nargile in the old town, I will have lachmajoon. Maybe I will usually go to Skopski Merak. That's as well Kha, Kha, ate, my restaurant that I mentioned.

It's not mine. This place I usually go. than to Casa Cubana. It's like more Cuban. That's not Macedonian style, but it's fancy anyway. Is that a nightclub or a restaurant? It's a restaurant. It's not the Macedonia.

It has Cuban food, Latino, and then at the night we have Latino parties. You can go there, eat nice, and then that's all night. Where do you like to go for dinner if you're going somewhere special? I will have Pastor Malia in La Delicius. that's like a place to pick up your food that's what i mentioned to forgot to mention that's my favorite place so we'll eat there pasta amalia it's like a huge it's like a flat bread with either with pork or with chicken and then you have eggs on the top that will be like my favorite place it's like a place on a budget but the food is priceless

it's so delicious is that like a pizza type like a macedonian type pizza yeah Actually, we can try it tonight. Yeah, it doesn't have a normal shape. The shape of Pastramalia, it's like a sheep, ship shape. Okay. You mentioned the train museum. That's like the history of Macedonia. Were there any other museums that you liked?

My topic maybe will be the Museum of Macedonian National History. I don't know how they call now. It's Vomero Museum. means something in Macedonia for our fight. Vox statues. It has many inside. It's very beautiful. It has very beautiful interior.

And it has Vex statues. And usually there are people that fight it for Macedonian history. So I'm kind of personally related to that because I'm ancestors, like my great-grandparents and many generations before, they fought for Macedonian history, for Macedonian independence, so they died in that war, so I'm kind of personally connected. If we're out in restaurants and stuff, what is the tipping culture like? Do people tip here? Old Macedonians, I wouldn't say they tip, but like newer generations, it's likely that they will tip like usually 10 to 15%. So, yeah, they tip. Okay. And are cabs expensive here?

not expensive at all i prefer actually um using a cap instead of um going with a public transport if you are is cop here is copy for two or three days and if you are like two or three people i would recommend taking a cap because from one place to another it will be like one euro that's 16 macedonian dinners or 70 or 80 euro and half and if you want to use the public transport you have to buy a special special card and then recharge it and recharge it all the time. So for somebody that's a few days in Macedonia, it's not so simple to find that places, buy that card, recharge. It won't be that much interesting to do all those stuff. It's simple to catch a taxi and usually taxes will give you a discount anyways. And would you say Scopia is a good place for a foreigner to come and live

for like an expat to come and live here? I would say it's a nice place to live, yeah. If you want to relax people and warm people, if you want place that will be cheap, like it's a budget-friendly place. And plus it's a place to live nice life. You can have different activities. And Skopje, one thing is so unpredictable.

Even the weather is so unpredictable. A few hours. you're going to see super shiny outside. It's going to be super shiny. You think, oh, we'll have summer, and then it will be so cool. So I don't know. I kind of like unpredictable things. So I like the weather and it's copy, the way the people leave.

Yeah, many, many things. Well, thank you so much, Sophia, for taking the time to chat with me. Where can people find out more about you? I usually, they can find my Instagram profile. or they can type scopje Airbnb what's your Instagram profile S-S-G-R-O-Z-D-A-N I will also spell it

in the show notes and I will also link to your Airbnb I can't remember what you guys said the name of do you remember the title Charming Central Room well definitely linked to it because I've been here all week. I feel so at home like I live here. All right, I'm going to drink that Macedonian coffee that you made me. And then hopefully we can go get some dinner.

Yes, definitely we can. Vegi Macedonian dinner. Yes. All right. Thank you, Sophia. Bye. You're welcome. Bye. Thank you so much, Sophia, for letting me stay at your lovely Airbnb. I love Airbnbs. I stay in them all the time. And I really like how they are working with communities and being explicit in their values. I received an email from them the other day, saying they were disappointed with the U.S. Supreme Court decision to uphold the travel ban. They will be matching donations to the International Refugee Assistance Project through September, and I will put a link in the show notes if you want to contribute to that. I'll also include my friends and family links so you can get a discount on Airbnb if this is your first time using

them. All right, for links to the places we talked about, plus photos of scopia, visit postcard academy.com. Okay, I'm headed out to enjoy the city for one last day before heading to Istanbul for a long layover on my way to Sarajevo. Yes, I have been talking about going back to Bosnia for a while now. I cannot get Sarajevo out of my mind, and so I am so excited to be going back. I'm sure I will be telling you all about that in future episodes. That's all for now. Thanks for listening and have a beautiful week wherever you are.

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