Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - Tallinn, Estonia: Old Fashioned Charm in the Most Digital Nation on Earth

Episode Date: February 22, 2019

Wired magazine has called Estonia “the most advanced digital society in the world.” The President of Estonia (a woman — yay!)  just published an article about how “Estonia is running its country like a tech company” and that “governments must learn to provide public services as efficiently as Amazon sells books: no physical presence, no cost of application, no opening hours.”   Sounds pretty great to me. And to Julia Barrett, an American who was so excited by what’s going on in Estonia that she moved there to help develop e-Residency 2.0. E-Residency is a government program that bestows e-Residency to non-Estonians around the world. Julia also represents e-Residency in its partnership with the United Nations.   In this episode, Julia talks about what’s like to live in the world’s most digital society. And how despite all the tech, Estonians still cherish nature and traditions like jam making and baking black bread. Find links to the places we discuss on postcardacademy.co   I’m your host, Sarah Mikutel. Ready to travel? Sign up for my newsletter and get your free guide to cheap airfare.    Thank you so much for listening to this show. I know you’re busy and have many listening options, so it means a lot to me that you’re here. You are the best.   This podcast is brought to you by Audible. Not a member yet? Postcard Academy listeners can get a FREE audiobook and a 30-day free trial if you sign up via audibletrial.com/postcardDo you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

Welcome to the Postcard Academy. I'm your host, Sarah Micatel, and I would like to thank you so much for being here, and a special thank you to Chris, who wrote me the following iTunes review. I have to say, since stumbling onto this podcast, I've been addicted. The topics and information are tremendous. Absolutely love listening and anticipate the upcoming episodes. Thank you so much for the juice sanguineous information. All the best, Chris. Thank you so much for writing that, Chris. He had reached out to me about applying for citizenship by Italian ancestry, so I will have to do an episode on that at some point. But today is all about Estonia, a country that Wired Magazine has called the most advanced digital society in the world. They even offer e-residency to non-Austonians around the world. Julia Barrett is an American who was so excited about what's going on in Estonia that she moved there to help develop E-Residency 2.0.

also represents irresidency in its partnership with United Nations. In today's episode, Julia talks about what it's like to live in the world's most digital society. She also shares her favorite things to see, do, and eat in Tallinn, Estonia's capital. And we talk a lot about the cultural differences between Americans and Estonians. Julia and I are definitely not as comfortable getting naked with our colleagues. I had so much fun talking to Julia. You can find links to all the places we mention on Postcard Academy. Now into my conversation with Julia.

Welcome, Julia. Thank you so much for joining me here today. Thank you for having me. So you're an American expat, I believe, living in Estonia. Your boyfriend is Colombian. You met him in Colombia. How did you end up in Colombia? So I had set a goal for myself a couple years ago to improve my Spanish so much so that I would be comfortable

speaking at conferences in Spanish. And so I promptly signed up for a three-week intensive Spanish course in Madagin, thinking that, you know, Madagin, I'll be able to concentrate, I'll just go down there and focus in my all-day class. And then I met him, I think, on day three. So that kind of threw that off a little bit. And how long did you spend in Colombia? I ended up, I was working remotely for the company that I worked for at the time. And so I was able to spend quite a lot of time. I think altogether I probably spent about a year between Medellin and the coast.

So he fell for you and decided to follow you to Europe. How did you end up in Estonia? It was funny. For a little while, I had left my corporate job. And I was, you know, bouncing between Columbia and traveling and, you know, more or less what you might consider a digital nomad. And, you know, I was looking for something interesting. Like for me at this point, my career, I was really looking for something where I would be able to leverage all of the skill set that I had developed over the years. And one of the things that I had enjoyed at my past company was working closely with our government relations team.

So, sorry, what were you doing at your other job? What was your career? I worked for many years for a company called Salesforce. And my last position there, I was the global director of our startup programs. So I worked really closely. with our government relations team and many teams across the globe, which was really interesting to me, working with entrepreneurs from all over the world.

And so I kind of randomly happened upon an article about e-residency, which is a program that the Estonian government launched a few years ago to help entrepreneurs from all of the world create EU-based businesses online. And I thought, wow, this is a perfect blend of everything that I have done and that I would like to do more of. So I kind of looked into it deeper, and there happened to be an open role. So one thing led to another, a couple months later, I was living in Tall and Estonia. So how are you able to live and work there as an American?

What is your visa situation? So, I mean, I'm lucky because I do work for the government. So it was a pretty seamless process. I think within one month I had submitted my, my temporary resident application and been approved. And I mean, I think I even moved here before it was formally approved. So for me, I have a temporary visa, which will be valid for the entire time that I'm employed. Great.

And so is your boyfriend on like a partner visa or something? No. So he, he's kind of lucky because he actually did live in Spain for 10 years. So as an EU citizen, he can stay in a store. legally for, you know, however long he would like. And I think that he could actually claim Estonian residency if he stays in Estonia and is like a permanent resident for more than 183 days in a given year. Got to love that EU citizenship.

Yeah, so he's lucky. He's been enjoying Estonia. And for him, he's an architect, so he's able to also work remotely. How long have you guys been there so far? And what would you say the biggest differences between Americans and Estonians? And I guess Colombians as well. We can throw that into the mix. So I moved here mid June of 2018. And he only joined me in November. So he came right in time for winter. Oh, poor thing. Interesting choice. Yeah, so it's funny because I think on a scale of like, on the cultural scale, I'd say that

Colombians are on one end and Estonians are on the complete other end. And Americans, maybe we fall somewhere in the middle. So it's been interesting because I think my boyfriend comes from a culture where, you know, family, like, loud party. everybody's like happy and you know it's just a very like open and noisy community you know in the US depending on where you're from like you know you fall somewhere in the middle because as we move towards Estonia it's it's like silence I think it's one of the things that a few people warned me about or you know that I'd read online or you know there are YouTube videos about what it's like

to live in Estonia, and everyone's like, Estonians don't want you talking. If you're talking to them, they're very upset about it. And it's kind of true. It's also kind of part of the charm, because once you do get to know an Estonian, as in like many, you know, quiet or more reserved cultures, yeah, they're very friendly and very warm and welcoming. But it is difficult to kind of crack that exterior. They need to get to know you.

Yeah. So they're more reserved when it comes to talking to strangers, yet they are more open to being naked, I know, with their whole like sauna culture. Can you talk to me a little bit about that? It's very confusing. I mean, you just can't keep up with what's going on here. So, yeah, it's been interesting. Like even, you know, my coworkers, like we have had some team outings where sauna is involved. And though I don't think nudity has been involved.

It's still sitting in a sauna and you're like bikini with your boss. So I think the Americans, we all have a, we all scratch our heads and like opt out. And everyone just laughs at us. But it's okay. I think the sauna culture, a few years ago, I kind of ran into the same problem, if you want to call it that, in Finland, where I had some Finnish co-workers who I had invited to my cabin where I had a sauna, not really thinking anything of it. and a couple days later they kind of backed out and while we were all at dinner uh they mentioned you know we just realized that maybe you didn't know that if we all go to the sauna we're going to be nude and we thought you might be uncomfortable with that i was like yeah that's that's accurate

that was very thoughtful of them i was like i love you guys thanks um so it's just kind of it's funny um i think that sauna culture here is very interesting um One of my colleagues actually has a website called Estonian Saunas, and he talks a lot about the sauna culture. And I think it's a really nice way that, like, families and friends and colleagues all kind of bond and, like, kind of let down that that hard exterior that is, you know, difficult to crack. And it's a time where they can spend together and, like, relax and, you know, be comfortable with one another. I think, yeah. Me, it's like the extreme. I think the concept is beautiful, but like you, growing up as a woman in America, it's just

something I can't wrap my mind around. And I had a not similar experience, but when I was in Finland just as like a visitor, I did like a little walking tour. And the woman giving the tour was telling us about, yeah, colleagues having like nude meetings in the sauna. I was thinking like, I could never have a job here. Like I can't, I can't go to a meeting naked. I mean, look, I'll tell you what, a couple years ago in Silicon Valley, I walked into a meeting and was asked to sit down in a massage chair.

And that was like outside my boundaries. So like, this is like, what, what? But I, it's cool. But it really made me think about the way we grow up in different cultures. And in America, I just didn't realize how toxic it was until I heard like the comfort level of people. people in Finland because it's obviously not a sexual thing. People are raised to be more comfortable with their bodies. And I think that's an amazing, healthy thing. And I wish that it was similar in the U.S. Yeah, I completely agree. And I've kind of like tried to rationalize that

with my, it's just difficult. When you grow up one way, like that is one thing that it's like, it's okay if everyone else does it. I'll just stay out here with my Kindle or whatever. And what are they doing in there? So saunas are like steam rooms, right? Or is it fancier over there? Well, and I'm not going to, I'm not going to get this quite right. But a sauna could be many different things. So sometimes here, like a hot tub is referred to as a sauna.

A steam room can be referred to as a sauna. But I think that what is most common here are like the dry sauna. and what people really like are the smoke sauna, which, you know, it's all black inside. And it's actually a very nice smell. Like, I like the idea of a sauna. Like, if I could just sit in there with my clothes, though, that would be great. But there are many different, there's a wide variety of saunas choose from.

And in fact, I think over the summer, they launched a boat sauna. So it's like this floating raft with a sauna on it that people can go to. I would love to hear more about your other experiences in Estonia. So could you just give us a visual snapshot of where it is geographically? What does the postcard of Estonia look like? So geographically, Estonia sits in northern Europe. We're at the top of the Baltics. So below us is Latvia, and then below that, Lithuania, Poland.

To our east is Russia. and across the river is Finland. You can actually take a ferry in two and a half hours from Tallinn to Helsinki. I've actually done that. So I've been to Estonia just for the afternoon. Just strolled around and then went back to France. As many do. Actually, it's really, really popular.

A lot of cruise ships dock and Tallinn. A lot of people visiting Helsinki come over for the day because actually Talon has the best preserved. medieval town in all of Europe. And it's quite charming. It's very nice area to walk around and very easy to get to from the ferry docks. Is there like a certain historical or cultural fact that you share with people? A lot of them. Well, first and foremost, like once we get past like where Estonia actually is, most people, one, ask if it's in the EU, like yes, indeed it is. And two, you know, how big is it? And I think generally people really mean like how many people. And

what's surprising is that little Estonia really is only 1.3 million people. And why I think that's kind of amazing is that all Estonia has accomplished in terms of technology and footprint across the globe, you know, building its reputation across the globe as a technology leader. I think it's pretty impressive for a country of 1.3 million people. Yeah, Estonia is definitely punching above its weight for sure. Yeah, but other like weird facts that I like to throw out people are the fact that, one, we have ice roads in the winter and the fact with the ice roads. So like you can drive from the mainland to an island. But there's this weird fact like you have to drive either under 25 kilometers per hour or over 40 kilometers per hour. And you're not allowed to wear a seatbelt.

So it's like, yeah, yeah, it's like it's basically like against all like safety rules. Like ever. So it's not a real road. It's just ice that you're driving slower fast over? Yeah. And it's like a kind of a clear path. Like they kind of mark it and certainly there are other cars, you know, driving this path. But yeah, basically the thought is that like if you drive under 25 kilometers per hour, you're slow enough. You're like easing it across the ice that it won't crack. Or if you're going over 40 kilometers per hour, you're going fast enough that it won't have time to crack. So apparently somewhere in the middle. there, there's a danger zone where like potentially the ice might crack, which is why you're not allowed to wear a seatbelt. So it's like, have you done it? No. I have not done it yet. Other weird facts, like, and Finland also has this law, but I love that people here have to wear reflectors in the winter. Because we only have really like three or four hours of light during the majority of winter, you must wear a reflector at all times in the evening.

Like a vest or? Well, sure, if you want to wear a vest. But what's really popular are these like dangling little reflectors. Like people just like dangle them from the zippers of their coats. And it looks ridiculous. Like if you're not familiar, you're just like, why are all these people dangling things off their coats? But like that's like you're weird if you don't have one.

But why? Is it so a car or like a bicycle doesn't hit you? Yeah, yeah. So just cars can see you. And it's actually become quite like a fashion statement. I think an entrepreneur, a couple different entrepreneurs have patented like reflective fabrics. And so you can have like reflective like really nice pins or like they'll cut out like pins in the shape of wolves or birds. And you know, people get really creative with their reflectors.

Oh my gosh. That's fascinating. So yeah, if I were in Estonian, I wanted to buy a gift to remember it by that for sure is something I would get like reflector. sign. But you know what? The thing is that I actually tried to like follow the rules for a little bit. And I had one that was like dangling off my coat. But they just, they get ripped off constantly. Like you see them on the ground. Like you see reflectors everywhere. But the reality is that if you're caught without one, you will be fine. There is a ticket involved. Oh, they're serious over there. So what's the best way to get around the city? Is it just walking around? For me, I love walking.

It's a hobby of mine. So I definitely walk everywhere. But there's a really great tram system that really takes you anywhere that you would want to go. And it's two euros. However, like a month past is, I think, something like 21 euros. So it's pretty reasonable. Where do we get a trim ticket? Well, it's digital.

You have to, you buy a card. I think Circle Ks or like any of the kind of little convenience stores. And online, you just add credit to it or set it up. It's pretty easy. As a resident, as long as you're a resident of Tallinn, actually, once you register your permanent address, the tram is actually free. So it's nice for us, those of us who live here. But otherwise, like we have Uber, we have Taxify, which is actually a startup that was

founded here. But getting around is really cheap and really easy, basically. Okay. So Taxify, so that's just an Uber alternative ride chair? It is. It is. Yeah, it's very popular here. Have you done any walking tours that you would recommend?

I have not. But one of our e-residents here, she actually founded a company called walks in Europe, and she does a lot of walking tours in Tallinn. so I think not with any sort of experience behind it I would definitely recommend checking that but it's a really small city and I think that I think that it's a nice city to just wander especially in old town and then there are certain there are a couple other neighborhoods like Cadriorg which is where the palace palaces and a lot of really beautiful old wood houses I like that neighborhood a lot myself and then there's some

other neighborhood called Kalamaya, where it's a little bit more artsy. And there's a, there's actually like a complex called Telisivi, which has a lot of cool boutiques and great restaurants, cafes, and it's all indoors. So you can kind of hide in there. And the neighborhood itself, Kalamaya, is really cute. It's also very unique, old wooden like fisherman houses. So between, I think, Palamaya and Cadre York, those are like, those are probably my two favorite neighborhoods. Those are in Tallinn. Yes, yes. And easily connected by the tram, I think probably 20-minute ride between the two of them. So what are some must-sees in this medieval village that we should go to? Well, I think in the medieval town, there are a few, there are a couple

different famous churches. And there's a lot of Russian architecture and alongside medieval architecture. Some really interesting historic stories around some of the buildings.

There's a very well-preserved wall around the city and with towers. So I think just wandering around and just kind of getting a feel for it, there isn't any one destination I would actually point to in old

because I think that's part of the fun of just like wandering the cobblestone streets. But outside of Old Town, just like a 10-minute walk from Old Town, there's a really great area that kind of, I guess, I'd say it's equidistant between Old Town and Teleski, which I mentioned. And it's called Baltiam Turg, which is Baltic Station Market. And in Balti-Amturg, it's really beautiful. It's a big food market. But there's also like a whole like handicrafts floor and antique shops and all sorts of really interesting things. Like to me, that's like between the old town and Balti-Aunturg and Teliskevi. It's a pretty awesome day or two of exploring.

Well, I love a good food market. And so there you mentioned handicrafts. So that's like local artists. selling their stuff? Yeah, like all the wool slippers and honey and, I mean, possibly reflectors, but also I think one of the other kind of silly things that I think are actually worth, you know, seeing.

Kalev is like the big famous Stonian chocolate here. And Kalev has a shop in Old Town where they also produce Marzapan. And I think that they actually give a class where you can paint the marzipan yourself because that's yeah and of course they claim to have you know invented marzipan i'm sure i've heard that story in many different cities but you know i like the fact that you can go into the shop and maybe paint your own marzapan so i've only just started to get into marzipan i i like it now it has to be mixed in with other things yes yes well and

in col of chocolate i mean estonians love it and you know i'm i'm i'm i'm frowned upon when I wrinkle my nose towards it. But it's really like as an American, it's basically their Hershey's, which, you know, I don't necessarily think Hershey's is the greatest chocolate ever either. But it's really funny because whenever I say anything

about Kala, they're like, oh, well, it's much better than it was during Soviet times. I was like, what does that even mean? What was it before? Yeah, because Estonia was actually occupied by the

Soviets until the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. Yes, yes. It's a sad part of history, but I think also key in Estonia's, you know, development and the technological infrastructure that it has built. So I think they were in a really unique situation because in 1991, Estonia was essentially bankrupt. You know, the fall of the Soviet Union, they're. all of a sudden on their own, they haven't been on their own since, you know, frankly, like

1920. And, you know, there were some periods where, like, maybe you could consider them independent, but, you know, it's a long time of occupation, whether by Germans or Russians or whoever. And so there were very few resources. There was really poor infrastructure. Everything in the country had to be rebuilt from scratch. And to increase that, challenge and to make it even greater they had a you know very small population spread out across large distances very difficult for the government to set up services for them offline and reach you know the most rural of the towns so this this you know their their independence in 1991 was it was lucky to coincide with

you know what you might call the digital revolution because I think the very for servers for the World Wide Web were switched on in August, 1991. So it was really clear that for the country to kind of rebuild itself and start over, it needed to build a new kind of nation, you know, a more digital nation. And today, like, when your baby is born, like, everything is instantly, like, put online, like your baby has a digital identity. And from that point forward, all of their health records, all of their everything is associated with their digital identity.

So it's been a really interesting transition, I think, for the country. And in a relatively short period of time, the Estonian government has put a lot of time and thought into helping people understand how they can, like, you know, visit or move here, you know, and create a life here. Yeah, I love how helpful they are. They had actually, so actually, they had a, they launched, I think midfall. They launched a program called Culture Step, which also has. helped the expats already living here kind of explore because as an expat living here,

it is sometimes difficult to, you know, figure things out. You know, you just don't really, like, as an outsider, you don't know if you're welcome there. So they created this program called Culture Step that provides like a whole like series of cultural events and experiences to kind of help you get more comfortable and like learn more about Estonia and kind of get out there. And they've even done things like a tour of a black bread factory, which is kind of cool. That is so fun. So have you taken advantage of this? I have. Actually, I would say like the opening night, it was actually the premiere of a nature documentary on Estonia, which was really, really beautiful, kind of took you through all four seasons and, you know, the moose and the birds and all the

other wild things that live in Estonia. So that was a very cool kind of like intro to the program. And did you meet any cool people? Did you learn anything that helped you understand the culture? Well, I went with one of my colleagues and he and I both were shocked at this opening night, at least, because it was a real wide variety of people. I mean, people from all countries, of all demographics and all age groups, families, old people, young people, us. So it was really interesting. And I think here even the expats, I don't know how it is in other countries. But I don't think that the expats here grouped together necessarily by origin, which I think

in a lot of other cities, you see that happen at times. But here I think it's pretty, you know, like expats are expats and like we'll all help each other. So that's nice. Do you have a big group of each group or are you guys just like a hodgepodge of like a few Americans, a few French, whatever? You have to stick. You have to all hang out because there's not enough of here. I mean, kind of. But there is like, like it's, well, if you live here, if you're an expat and talon, you're probably very familiar with the like expat Facebook group, which is always good for a laugh.

Really? Why? What have you seen on there? I do not want to get into it. Amazing, amazing debates. Tell us one weird thing. Yeah, everything that you would expect of a Facebook group. I think the best one that I'm still like waiting for it to be topped was a debate that ended up in like a string of like 200 some comments about, you know, like some, a woman had hung her like sheets out on our balcony to dry. and her Estonian neighbor had, you know, a fit. And apparently it's also, it's illegal to do this.

And, like, one, the expat shouldn't have been doing this. Like, it's the rule for your building. You shouldn't be hanging your laundry out over the balcony rail. But she posted something along the lines of, like, has anyone else, like, run into this problem? Like, what should I do? Like, you know, and she kind of, who's, I don't agree with her position. She definitely wanted to be combative towards this.

neighbor and like, you know, show this neighbor what she was going to do. Yeah. But the comments that were, I mean, it was just amazing. Like, people explaining like their rationale as to why, which was completely like, I mean, essentially racist. Like other people telling her, you know, go home. Wait, how can hanging sheets outside of a window be racist? Oh, no.

It led to conversations of like, listen, like, that's something Babushkas do. People here see themselves as Nordic. They're not Babushche. because like, I mean, it was ridiculous. That's so interesting because I think of it is something very Mediterranean. And my favorite photos of all time are of hanging laundry. That's all I take photos of. Yeah, that's beautiful, right?

And then the woman, the poor woman, it's just where places it didn't need to go. Yeah, Facebook can be helpful once in a while depending on the group and theme. And then other times it just goes off the rails. And people's like intent is totally twisted out of it. horrible but the best part of the whole thing at least for me was coming into the office in the morning and we were all the expats were all like did you see the post like we're all just like laughing and we still tease each other about like don't hang laundry up the room i guess that's why you need culture class so that you know don't hang your sheets outside i mean you know these are

just building rules like just rules like yeah you're in another country like you have to show some respect. Like, it's a little unusual. Yeah. But that being said, I will say, I'm also part of a Spanish Facebook group here, and they're very, very well-behaved. So how do you spend a leisurely afternoon in Estonia? And you can pick either a wintry day or a summer day. You might want to pick a summer day. I was just going to say, like, that's a very difficult question the answer. I think I'll tell you that like honestly in winter people like coziness is an art. So people here like to be cozy, which is maybe where sano's come into play. So in the winter, I definitely stay cozy. I'm not going to lie, I do puzzles at my house sometimes. And yeah,

that's what's going on over here during winter. That said, there are also like a lot of very great outdoor activities. And, you know, once you live here, once you kind of get the right equipment, like boots, gloves, good socks. It's actually quite fun to go out. You know, like my boyfriend and I go on a lot of little like weekend excursions. The bogs aren't quite as beautiful in winter.

They're definitely just covered in snow, but, you know, that has its own charms. In summer, however, I think people here embrace it. You know, they've made it through, like the dark winter, they've made it through the cold. And now, you know, it's time to rejoice and celebrate the midnight sun. And so people here, like, love it. They love their summer.

They have summer houses and they're out in the woods. I think 50% of Estonia is actually covered in forest, you know, or bog. And then a lot of farmland mixed in between. And so it's a lot of nature. And that's what people here like to do. So they are out there picking berries all summer, picking mushrooms in the fall. And like everybody. Like I've walked to and from work in the summer and see like people carrying buckets of berries.

And I'm like, where are you going at 7 a.m.? Like, is this for real? And actually like even when I first moved here, you know, the lovely woman who helped me like, I'd used a relocation agency called Who's My Talent. And a lovely woman here who helped me get all settled, I ran into her at the grocery store, and we'd had like a random conversation about making jam at some point. And I ran into her at the grocery store,

and she's like, oh, you know, I'm so glad I saw you because I keep meaning to go to my grandmother's house to pick berries. Do you want to go tonight? And I was like, okay. And so I ended up at this woman's grandmother's house out in the countryside, picking like cherries and red currants That sounds like the best night ever. It was amazing.

And then, of course, I got home with like piles and piles of berries and was like, what am I going to do? And so I spent like the next week pitting cherries and all sorts of nonsense with the other berries and making more jam than I mean, I've yet to eat all jam. Have you ever had you ever made jam before that? Oh, heck no. So this was like all, like, all new. And very, like, common here. Like, everyone's just looking at me like, yeah, of course. Like, I just pickled, you know, 800 pounds of mushrooms this weekend.

Oh, okay. You know, sorry. So, yeah, like, they love it, which is really cool. That's something really interesting. And it's very much part of the culture here. So I think that's really, honestly, what people do here in the summer. Jam and pickle. Yeah, they really do.

So aside from that, just like, you know, taking hikes in a bogs and, you know, picnics and enjoying family, you know, bonfires under the midnight sun. And a big celebration here in, towards the end of June is, of course, midsummer night were what they call Yanipaea here. And I actually arrived here like the week before. So unfortunately, it was a little bit too soon for me. kind of just like, yeah, I need to get like my apartment settled, but thanks for the invites. So what I missed out on were big bonfires and, you know, basically a celebration of nature. And I don't know, there's some story about the devil that I'm not going to get right. So I'm not going to try to share it.

But there are some very interesting traditions around Yanipiv. Okay. We've actually joked here at Eresidency. about we joked about putting together instructions on how to conduct

a Yanipa party but what is it I mean like you've got a bonfire and then what else I mean the easiest thing like you know

I'll take advantage again that you're an American it's the closest thing I can liken it to is like 4th of July like you're a barque and you're lighting things

on fire and like basically just having your great time so it's It's very, like, people get really excited and, like, they can't wait for that, that day. And then the rest of the summer is just the quieter, like, getting ready to start picking berries. Barry season comes and goes. Mushroom season arrives.

Soon enough, you're putting your boots back on. Yeah, why are they calling it midsummer at the beginning of summer? Well, it's, it's, I mean, it's traditional. And, you know, this part of the globe, especially to celebrate this. but it's the summer solstice. Okay. Yeah. Making a note, visit Juliet at mid-June.

Go to a bonfire. I guess it kind of goes back to the fact that like Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania were once pagan. I don't know for a fact, to be honest, but I think that Finland as well, at least, and maybe many other surrounding countries. I guess everybody was pagan at one point, right? Yeah. Yeah, we like to, like, we are very pagan here. And so I think that, you know, it goes back to that and really just celebrating, celebrating nature. And, you know, it's, it's, that's just the way it is here.

It's a big day. So what are they eating at their barbecues? What are, yeah, what are some foods that we should try in Estonia? Baries and mushrooms. Like, I'm not just saying that. It's, it's closer to religion than anything else. hair, to be honest with you. Sour cream is a favorite ingredient.

Herring black bread is probably, I would, I might, you know, again, somebody, I'd be open to debate this with anyone, but I think that they're, probably their, like, you know, national food is black bread. What is that? It's, well, I actually read up on this this weekend. Okay. In my exploration of Pumpernickel, it led me to black bread again. And it's basically rye-based bread.

And it's something that I learned this weekend, actually, is that rye is so popular here, and thus black bread, because rye actually will grow in winter. So there's winter rye and, you know, summer rye, I suppose. And so it was actually a grain that could be grown in colder climates year-round. And so they could always have black bread. They could always make their rye bread with this rye seed. It's a pretty healthy bread.

It's not soft. There's very little gluten. And so it's generally like a crumbly bread. But it's kind of like the kind of like health nut bread that you imagine or have like open face sandwiches and places like Germany and Denmark. Like they also have their own versions. But here we have many, many different kinds of black breads. Actually, one of my like big food mistakes here was, you know, like sometimes just get lazy. You just don't want to translate labels.

I was in a really nice bakery and I saw like a loaf of black bread that looked really pretty. I thought, you know, I'll have that one, please. So get at home and I get out, I actually had like herring and I got really excited. But I had like a certain taste in mind when I did into this like little open face tearing sandwich I made myself. And when I did in, it was not the taste that I had imagined. It was not a nice taste at all. and I finally, I was like, what am I eating? And I translated it and it was like blood bread.

So that I googled that and I find out that yeah, like that's a common thing or relatively common thing, that there's a black bread that's made with, you know, blood. So that was kind of a disappointing loaf of black bread. But in general, black bread is really, really nice. Sometimes it contains like raisins or beets or whatever else, other sweeteners, which are also really nice. They also need a lot of pork here, a lot of beets, cabbage, you know, sourcrow. The kinds of things that you would, you know, expect from a Baltic country. And if you have a garden, you generally have like a huge patch of dough. So that's a beloved herb.

So as a vegetarian, I think I would be enjoying the. berries and the mushrooms. Yeah. And bread, I guess. Minus blood. And dill. Yeah, you like almost all of the black bread, except for one kind. So, and a dill is actually a taste that, you know, I was never a big fan of dill, but now, you know, I quite like it.

I don't really like dill except for pickles. My grandmother, one of my grandmothers used to make her own pickles with dill. And, yeah, those are a great. I almost forgot. Like, don't forget about potatoes. And also, we actually have something in Estonia that we call the Onion Trail, which is a whole area kind of, I would say, like, parallel to the Russian border alongside a lake, like, Pipsy, in the East. And it's called the Onion Trail because guess what?

There are onions there. And it's one of like the tourist attractions across Estonia. like people, Estonians will go on road trips there in the summer and they're festivals. I think very close by. There's the Varna fish fair, which happens annually where there are smoked fish and everybody enjoys their onions and smoked fish. And also what's really interesting in that area is a different cultural group called the Saito or the old believers. and it's a little bit different culture, and it kind of bleeds over the Russian border

into a large portion of Russia. So it's just another kind of interesting area. The old believers. Who are they? And I won't get this right either. But it's a religious sect, I guess, or at some point it was. But they do have their own culture

and their own, like costume and they kind of keep to themselves and they actually have their own dialects too. But it's an interesting area to explore. So this like Agend Trail kind of cuts right through Saitoma, which is where, you know, this region. So that's cool. And I think actually for anybody who visits Estonia, if you can't make it there, it's really easy to get to a town called Tartu, which is in the south. And in Tartu, there's the Estonian National Museum, which is really, really cool. It's really, really well done.

Interesting architecture, like beautiful building inside, but also really great exhibits. They actually have a whole area that digs into the Stozo people. And then also another area that shows all the different costumes from the different regions of Estonia. So it's a really great museum here. That's fun. Can we get there by train to that town? Yes, yeah, actually. You can, it's really easy to take the bus.

I think actually when my boyfriend and I took the bus down and I had the plan to take the train back, but we just jumped on a bus instead. But the bus was like, I think we bought our tickets in advance for like three euros each. I mean, it was really cool. Yeah, it was like two and a half hour drive. No big deal. And it's a very nice town. It's a university town.

It's a little bit more hilly. Tallinn is relatively flat. I say relatively, but it really only, has two hills. Okay. And small hills. So very flat. It's hard to, however, has very nice, like pretty rolling hills and the National Museum, as well

as, I think, adjacent the National Museum, there's this ridiculous upside down house that you can tour. Upside down. Yeah. It's just this silly house that's flipped upside down. It's actually very disorienting. Like you walk in and, you know, I thought it was silly. I was like, oh, this is like, let's go see this.

It'll be silly. I walked in. I was almost, it's still like dizzy, which I did not expect because you're literally walking on the ceiling of the house. And they have all the furniture set up like it should be, you know, on the floor. So all of the furniture is like dangling above your head. And the house is a little, it's sat a little bit cockyed. So, you know, you have to kind of work at it to walk across the room.

But it's really funny. It's a very good experience. Julia, before we go, I would love for you to tell me about some of your favorite places to eat in Tallinn. So I think my very most favorite place is a little cafe called Nope, which is in Cadrejord, which is a really, really beautiful area of Tallinn, you know, old houses, like beautiful wooden houses. And they are great. They have a bakery. They have a coffee shop.

You can sit back with your laptop if you need to. Great food, organic food, lots of vegetarian options. And it's just really relaxing. And what I also really like about it is that it has an adjoining little organic market. So if you're feeling like really doing it up and buying some like macha powder or cool honey or whatever it is, I really like that place. So that's probably my most favorite of all. I did forget to mention that there are some other weird beverages here, like fermented cabbage juices and things,

like stuff that like I do not want to drink. But they're worth a try. Also, one of the things that I was really excited about when I came here because I watched a documentary on rural Russia at some point in the last year. And I got like all hyped up on birch juice. I was like, what is birch juice? Like birch trees. Oh my gosh, what?

And so I got really excited when I headed to Estoniax. I'm like, oh, they have birch trees. I bet they have birch juice. And so, yep, they do. And I was really excited about this birch juice. I thought this was going to be like my drink here. And it honestly, it tastes like vile. I was going to say root beer because I'm thinking, oh, birch beer.

I've heard of that. I love birch beer. Like, that's delicious. No, like birch juice, I actually imagined it being kind of like coconut water, only like, you know, minus the coconut taste. And I suppose that's accurate. Like that's what it tastes like and it's not nice. So that's something to like worth a try. It's called Casemal. And that's just we're trying. I think we cannot with that description. And also hold on. We have to go back to the cabbage juice for a second. When and where would you be drinking this? Um, so Vass is like this fermented cabbage drink, which I think people just, I mean, it's good for you. Like things that are fermented are good for you. It's the same. Like everybody, oh, I love kombucha.

Like, oh, you should try less. I guess. I think that there is, again, like kombucha, I think that there's alcohol content. But it's, to me, it's just, it's not a taste that I enjoy. But I do enjoy the labels. Like, I love going to markets in any country. And I'm just delighted when I pick up. up a bottle of soda and see like basically sauerkraut on the label.

It's fun to see different like drinks and foods and yeah, to explore like the local grocery shops and stuff. But other kind of interesting places if you're visiting Tallinn, I think just for the experience, maybe not the food, there is something called the TB Tower, which is a little bit outside the city. And I would actually recommend taking a taxi to it, but it's this really, really tall city tower with a restaurant on the top level. And there's also like a viewing deck. And I think in the summer, you can actually like go on out onto the edge of it. I mean, you're held on by cables, but you can really walk on the edge of this thing and look out across the Baltic Sea and

downtown and over towards the forests and it's a really beautiful view. In the winter, you can, of course, enjoy that same view from inside the restaurant. Oh, my gosh, that sounds a bit scary. So you're on top of that tower? Yeah. Hanging outside? No, I mean, the restaurant's inside. But, yeah, if you would like to walk along the edge, I think that's, yeah, that's hanging

along the edge of a very tall TV tower. So that's kind of a cool spot. in Tallinn, very, like, very close to the palace, where our president actually works, is Kumu, which is our modern art museum. And within Kumu, there's also like a very nice little cafe. Like, I think it's a very nice day out to stop in there and have, have, you know, coffee and then enjoy the art museum and the surrounding gardens. You know, Kadriorke Palace, which is a thing about the palace.

It also sits within a park by the same name, which is beautiful, and have really nice little cafes scattered about. So I really like that area. I think it's beautiful. Otherwise, I definitely recommend if you don't know where to go to eat, I would just have to Teliskevi or even Balti-Yam Turk because there are tons of little like pop-up type restaurants and like food cards and. in teleskees, there are some really great, like, ethnic restaurants. Like, there's an Indian restaurant that I like in particular, but I don't remember its name. What is the tipping culture like? Do people tip at restaurants and bars and stuff? People do, but it's, I mean, I think it embarrasses. It would embarrass the person receiving the tip if it was over and turned him out.

So basically, you just round up. It's not really, it's not a heavy tipping culture. I know, taxis, like, ticket from the airport to my house, it always ends up being, like, you know, eight euros, 90 cents or whatever. And I just give them a 10. And they're like, oh, yeah, thank you. Wow. So it's not something that we have to worry about too much. No, no, no, no. And, like, I mean, if you don't tip, it's not, like, nobody's faced by that. So. Yeah. Unfortunately, I think I'm now very bad at tipping now. So we'll see how many times I'm, you know, I receive the evil eye when I head back to the U.S. And you forget, yeah.

Yeah. That definitely happens. Where do you like to go out at night? You know, we, so one of the things, like last night, this is going to sound nerdy, but like, we're kind of old. So last night we went to, there was a presidential debate. that was held in Teloskevi, actually. And there were, or not presidential debate, the elections are coming up for a new prime minister, not our president of prime minister.

And so there was a debate held in English with some of the candidates or representatives from the party. And it was all conducted in English by a pretty well-known journalist here. So it was a really, really cool event, especially for expats to kind of get a better idea of the election climate here. Oh, that's cool that was in English. Yeah. And there are a lot of events throughout, again,

even like this culture step program, like they've tried to make an effort to create a lot of events that you can go to, especially as an English speaker. So we do that, or we just take walks. You know, it's still a new city for us, so there's still a lot to explore even in winter. You know, here there's so many,

my boyfriend being an architect, there is a lot that we like to just go wander around and see. You know, there's an architecture museum that we enjoy going to. So we're just nerds. Oh, I love nerdy things. And also, walking around is my favorite thing to do. I mean, there are cool things here. There's like kind of a basically abandoned like Olympic structure here from, you know, decades ago. and then there's like an abandoned prison that you're not actually technically allowed in, but, you know.

So there are a lot of really cool things to explore here, and that's what I like to do. Okay, just get lost and... Yeah, yeah. That sounds really fun. Juliet has been so nice chatting with you. Where can we find out more about you and about e-residency? Well, about me, you can find me on Instagram. either searching for Julia Barrett or my handle is Right underscore J.B.

And for e-residency, I think it's easiest to Google us or you can go to our URL, which is e-desresident.gov.e. We're also on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook. We have actually a very active Facebook group. So you can Google E-residency or find us on Facebook. Well, thank you very much, Julia. this has been a very fun conversation. Likewise. Thank you. I am ready to book a flight back to Estonia, a summer flight.

If you're ready to book summer travel, you can download my free guide to finding the best airfare at postcardacademy.com slash airfare. Stay tuned next week to learn how you can become an e-resident of Estonia and why this can be especially helpful if you want to create a business, especially a location independent. business. That's all for now. Thanks for listening and have a beautiful week wherever you are. Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free conversation sheet sheet with simple formulas that you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you're in a meeting or just talking with friends. Download it at sarahmygatel.com slash blank no more.