Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - The Best of Lisbon: Exploring Portugal's Capital City as an Expat

Episode Date: April 9, 2021

Today we are traveling to Lisbon, Portugal, and Becky Gillespie is our guide. I’ve known of Becky for awhile now. She’s known in expat circles as Tokyo Becky and we’ll get to why that is in this episode. But now, after years of living in Asia and digitally nomad-ing around the world, Becky's creating a base for herself in Lisbon.  And you might want to, as well, if you love the sun and sea and are looking for a beautiful, relatively affordable place in Europe to call home.In this episode, Becky is sharing everything we should eat, drink, and see in Lisbon, Portugal. Plus the side trips to cities and beaches we should explore.Becky has traveled to more than 70 countries and when she’s not doing that, you’ll find her playing her ukulele or singing karaoke. And she has a podcast, as well, called The School of Travels.Enjoy the show!Hello! I'm your host, Sarah Mikutel. But the real question is, who are you? Where are you now and where do you want to be? Can I help you get there?Visit sarahmikutel.com to learn how we can work together to help you achieve more peace, happiness, and positive transformation in your life.Book your Enneagram typing session by going to sarahmikutel.com/typingsessionWant to connect on Insta? Find me hereDo you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

Welcome to Live Without Borders, a travel and wellness show for expats, the expat curious, and globally minded citizens of the world. We are the travelers, the culturally curious, the experiences and not things kind of people. And we know that freedom is about more than getting on a plane. It's about becoming the most heroic versions of ourselves, which is why on this podcast you will hear insider travel secrets, inspiring expat stories, and advice on how to live abroad. but you will also hear episodes that will help give you the clarity, focus, and skills you need to create a life that will set your soul on fire. I am your host, Sarah Micatel, a certified clarity coach trained in the Enneagram, and I first moved abroad on my own at age 18, and I have been permanently enjoying life in Europe since 2010. If you are ready to make some big moves in your life

and want my help moving from someday to seize the day, visit live without borderspodcast.com. Today we are traveling to Lisbon, Portugal, and Becky Gillespie is our guide. I have known of Becky for a while now. She's known in expat circles as Tokyo, Becky, and we will get into why that is in this episode. But now, after years of living in Asia and digitally nomading it around the world, Becky is making her home base in Lisbon. And you might want to as well if you love the sun and sea and are looking for a beautiful, relatively affordable place to call home. in Europe. In this episode, Becky is sharing everything that we should eat, drink and see in Lisbon, Portugal. Plus, we are going to talk about the side trips to cities and beaches that you

should definitely explore. And Becky does, has done a ton of exploration herself. She's been to more than 70 countries. And when she's not doing that, you can find her playing her ukulele or singing karaoke. And she is a podcaster as well. She's got a show called the School of Travel. So definitely check that out. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Becky, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you very much for having me, Sarah. I'm excited to be on your podcast. You have been known for a long time as Tokyo, Becky. Where did this name come from? So I actually moved to Tokyo when I was 22, just after college, and I lived there for 12 years, got my permanent residency, and spent the time teaching English, working in tax, and teaching professionals English as well.

Wow. So that is a huge span of time. So how did you even get it in your head to move to Japan after school? I actually saw the movie Lost in Translation about six months before I got this idea in my head. And I thought, Tokyo, like those characters look kind of lonely, but Tokyo looks really cool. So what kept you there for 12 years? I actually, so the first year flew by, and I was just getting into it, learning the language, learning what I liked, what I didn't like food-wise, because that's a big thing in Tokyo is getting acquainted with their food. And then I realized that it was a wonderful base for me where all the embassies you need to go anywhere are in Tokyo itself. And I just used it as a place and started exploring the world. And it just was, it became very addictive. And I stayed. Yeah. So you moved over and

learned, well, you were learning Japanese, but teaching English. So that's how you started in Japan, is that, did you stay teaching English? Did your job evolve? And like, what did that look like? And how did you get permanent residency? Yeah. So first I went over. Actually, the company I worked for came to my college. They'd never been to my college before, but it was your typical career fair. And they were saying, come for a year of adventure in Japan. And I thought, I could just do a year, see some of the world and come back and then start my real career in Ohio. where I had gone to school. But I went over for the year.

I did the interview in Chicago. And then three months later, moved over to Japan. They met me at the airport. They gave me an apartment when I first got there. It was a really easy onboarding process to this very different country. I knew no one there.

It was all going to be through the company that I had like this soft landing. And then after about two and a half years, I actually went back to my hometown, back to my parents' place for about six to ten months. I really wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but I found myself really missing Japan. And so I went back, did exactly the same thing except at that time I started teaching in elementary schools. So really getting that teacher sense because at first I was in a language institute, just teaching up to four people at a time.

And then I had met a friend who was working for Pricewaterhouse Cupers, an international accounting firm. And I had a finance degree. So through him and through interviewing, I actually shifted from teaching. in an elementary school on a Friday to working at PWC on a Monday. And I started doing expat taxes for Americans. And also we did their Japanese individual tax returns. I did that for four years. I thought this was going to be my job forever. But after four years in corporate life, and I have to add corporate life in Japan, which they have such an intense work culture, I decided that I would kind of want a hybrid of the two. So eventually, I got my master's in education.

and I started teaching lawyers in their law firm English. So I was using that business background and the teaching background I had before. And I did that for another four years. And then it came to another crossroads. I think a big thing, honestly, was that I hadn't found a partner to share my life with in Tokyo yet. And so at that point, I decided it was time to probably leave Japan for a while. But before I did that, I did apply for permanent residency.

And if you have a working visa for 10 years, you can easily apply, but it's not an easy process to do it. You just have to get all these documents in place, get all the right things from the tax office. You actually need a guarantor who doesn't have to be a Japanese person, but you need someone with permanent residency there or a Japanese citizen who can vouch for you and say, like, I guarantee this person is good and viable to be a permanent resident here. And I just did that all myself. You can hire like a legal team to help you or an immigration team, but it's also possible to completely do it yourself. So yeah. Wow. Well, I am so inspired by that. Wow. Yeah. So in English school, would you mind sharing like the school you started out with? Are they still open? Sure. So it's kind of a thing. It's an infamous company now. When I went over there in 2004, just going to tell you a little bit more about my age, they were, they had 900 schools in the country. They were, they were called. called Nova. And just before I left in 2007, I think it was from that company, things were starting to change a lot with Nova, and I sensed something was off. And actually, three months after I left, they went bankrupt. And most of those Nova branches shut down, but they were eventually bought out

by another company. So Nova still does exist. The problem was they got sued for not giving refunds to students that wanted to, like, leave the school and go somewhere else. And so, for six months, they were not allowed to take on new students. And that pretty much killed the ability to cover all their expenses. That's a shame. But your experience was a good one? It was. I even was able to call them in this whole process and get like documents I needed and they were still functioning. And as I said, they still functioned, but they learned a hard lesson in 2007. So yeah. So I think that's like a really helpful start for people is like teaching English in a place. When it comes to like work fees and stuff like that, how did you take that next step to

teaching in schools and going to PWC? Were you sponsored by those specific institutions? Yeah. So it's actually really easy if you are a native English speaker and you have a four-year bachelor's degree. It doesn't matter what that degree is in. It's really easy if you've got both of those things. If you don't have either of those things, it's much harder to work and live in Japan.

So I get a lot of questions. actually, even cold messages on Instagram asking, if I don't have that degree, can I still go over? And the answer is it's very difficult because Japan does have quite a strict immigration process. But not if you've got those two things. So I did have those things. I applied to the companies in America. I went to interviews in the U.S. And then they gave me all the information I needed to move over, including, as I said, the apartment and someone meeting you at the airport.

I think I did have to pay for my flight. But that depends on the company. Yeah. Wow. The royal treatment, every time I've moved to different countries, I've been on my own. And so I'm like, how do I figure this out? I mean, it's very confusing the first time if you've never. It's better now, definitely better now than in 2004.

But with the Olympics, we know what's happened. With the Olympics, they've added a lot more English signage in the major Japanese city, so it's easier now. But yeah, it's nice. somebody meeting you at the airport. Yeah, yeah. So for the Olympics, you meaning COVID is. Yeah. It's a, yeah, they've announced that tourists will not be allowed to attend the games, which is just killing all these financial dreams they had to profit off of these games. Yeah, well, and travelers' dreams as well. I mean, so many people wanted to go to, like, I had, I had plans to

go to Japan last year as well. Yes. And cherry blossom season right around the corner right now. So many people would be there. Well, Becky, so you, after being there for like 12 or so years, have decided to move to Portugal. So how did that idea come about? Well, actually, I became a digital nomad after in 2017 when I left Japan. And I met a couple, a Portuguese couple in 2018, just about six months into that journey on a hiking trip in Colombia, of all places. And like they were so cool. I really like I loved their sense of humor and I'd never been to Portugal. And so I thought it would be so much better if I went the first time knowing people who I could meet up with. And so it actually ended up having two friends from Japan fly over and meet me in Portugal. And then we met them again and I reunited. And I went to Portugal three more summers seeing them, including 2020, which is a different story. But I really started to build my knowledge. of the country and visited different places before the pandemic. And I thought that really one of the

key things was it was a beautiful country. It was in Europe. But most importantly, that's still easy for Americans with all the right paperwork to get visas to live there. That's different from most other European countries. Yeah. Well, I love the story of your whole life just turned a direction because you went on a hike in Columbia and met these people and we're like, Portugal sounds cool. Let's go check it out. You're a girl after my own heart. Yes, yes. I mean, Japan taught me that you can literally just go to a country and know no one and make it work.

Yeah. So you went to Lisbon and now you're setting up a base there for yourself. So tell me a little bit about that process. How as an American are you able to live and work in Portugal? So there's something called the D7 visa. There's actually two options. D7 is one of them, which is if you're a freelancer making money from outside of Portugal and it's above a certain amount, I don't actually know that amount. I'm going to say like $2,500 a month or something.

And it needs to be consistent to make it easy for you. That money should be coming in every month over that amount. It's you basically just apply. You need to apply from your home country. and for me it took about a month to get all of the approval from the Portuguese embassy in the U.S. And you basically need to have a meeting in Portugal with immigration authorities. It's usually about three months after you arrive. They give you first a temporary visa, which is what I have now.

It's a four-month visa, and I will have my meeting with immigration. And hopefully that converts to a two-year residence card for the EU. and you can actually apply for a passport after five years, but I've heard it takes about six years to actually get it. Okay. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. It is really amazing.

The other thing I need to say about the D7, though, is it requires you to be resident in Portugal for six months a year. Okay. I'm not sure on the gray area of that. Maybe that includes the Schengen. I mean, there's not proof that you're not in Portugal, but you do need to spend most of that time in Portugal. Yeah, so it's good if you want to set up an expat life.

Yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned two ways. You mentioned the D7. Was there another way you wanted to mention about moving to Portugal? Yes. So the other way is the golden visa. And Portugal has been doing this since I believe 2013, 2012.

And that is, it gives you the same thing, like between five to six years to get a passport. The major differences, it costs a lot more. You need to bring in, depending on where you are, a minimum of two. 280,000 euros from outside of Portugal. So you cannot use a mortgage from a Portuguese bank to count for that money, which is what I thought I might be able to do if I bought a house here. But no, they said that has to come from outside sources. There's another thing where you can give 350,000 euro into a financial investment in Portugal, and that counts as well. I think in Lisbon or Porto, if you want to buy a place, that number is higher for buying a

property. It's like 400,000 euro. I should also say the 280,000 euro is for buying a property with money from the outside in a rural area. So that's why that number is lower. And I was like, I could probably use that money 400,000 euro if I even had it in a better way over five years, because I would need to hold that property for at least the five or six years I was using to wait for that passport. So, but the major difference with the Golden Visa is, you only have to be in Portugal for seven days a year, the first year, and then from then on, it's 14 days. So that's a big difference in how your life is going to look. So Becky, then, I assume that you are a freelancer who, did I, are you an editor? Did I read?

Yeah, so I'm a proofreader. And I actually have been working on a lot of COVID research this year. a lot of professors from around the world are writing journals for their research studies. And I get this research in English and I have to fix it and make it beautiful and publishable. So I have a few clients. That's my main client. And I've luckily been working with them for at least five years. So it's like that looks really good when I'm applying for a visa here. It's very stable and very, yeah, they like that too. So just like really quick, I'm interested in like how you became a freelancer in that way. For anyone who's interested in maybe setting up their own business so that they could get a visa like this. How did you go about like even finding clients for proofreading?

So in, in, in, for my main client, I actually got it through a friend in Japan. He, he, it's a strange story, but he found out that his father was working for them. And as a researcher, not as a proofreader and then he started working for them and then he reached out to his friends and acquaintances and said well we need more people try to take this editing test and see how you do and that's how it started so one thing I always tell people especially when you're living abroad is like reach out like join groups um you know network I've always had more luck with all of these things through networking versus doing the the cold you know the cold old school applying method yeah yeah so relationship building. Relationship building is really important, especially as an expat to feel

like calm and at peace with yourself in countries where you're starting with nothing and you need to make new friends. Yeah. Well, moving on to Portugal. So I would love to hear about why you liked Lisbon so much that you were like, yep, this is going to be like the next phase. This is where I want to set up shop. So I lived in a capital city of Tokyo for 12 years. And I, I actually, I still love to travel. Like, although I'm going to be based here in Lisbon, my plan is still to be traveling for six months a year because I'm still a location independent freelancer.

So I love that, you know, Lisbon is one of those capital cities that still has the airport right in the center of the city. It's less than a 20-minute drive to get there from central Lisbon. And I thought that's a good base. Like there is an airport in Porto, but there are a lot less flights. Also, you have, again, the embassies here in Lisbon if you need to go to different countries that might require things like that. And yes, like there's so many expats and so many people from so many places living in Lisbon that that really speaks to my traveling soul. Yes. Well, let's talk about Lisbon. Like what, give us like a little snapshot of what it looks like. What does the postcard look like?

So if you're from the U.S., it looks like San Francisco. It has its own Golden Gate Bridge, which is not. called the Conan Gate Bridge, but looks almost exactly like it, except the differences. You can't walk across the one here in Lisbon. But it also has Christ the Redeemer statue, the same you would see in Rio de Janeiro. And it's called the city of seven hills, because it has seven hills with different viewpoints around the city. It is a very hilly place. Just get ready for that before you come here. Lots of cobblestone. So one thing that is challenging is if you're in the center of Lisbon, and it rains, that cobblestone gets slippery and you're walking up a hill. So just, you know, be prepared for things like that. But it's just a breathtaking place. I don't spend a lot of,

I don't go to a lot of cities. Tokyo was certainly not one of them where you walk down a street and there's a crowd of people waiting for sunset at a viewpoint because it's just so beautiful. So that is, that's something really special about Lisbon. Yeah, I've only been once, and this was back in 2012, and it was a gorgeous city. And I learned that there was an earthquake in, I think it was 1755, where like 80% of the city was destroyed. And so now a lot of what you see is from the 1700s. That's right.

And that's a unique thing about it as well. There's a statue to this guy, Markash to Pombal, who was kind of in charge of rebuilding the whole city. And I have to say, like, that does play in the back of my mind. Also, I lived in Tokyo, which has lots of. earthquakes. And so I'm like, I want to live a little higher up the hill. But my Portuguese friends laughed at me when I said that. They said, it's been a really long time since that happened. Yes. Well, it was a crazy, like, so I went on a free walking tour. I can't remember what

was called, but it was awesome. And they were telling us that, yeah, so the whole city crumbled practically. And then there were all of these fires. And then there was a tsunami that wiped the town. And I was in Tokyo in 2011 when you had this triple, triple like threat. And so, yeah, it's not that long ago that I know what that's like. So yeah, but it's such a beautiful city because as you said, they rebuilt it from that time. And they were trying to plan it again the best way they knew how. And it's breathtaking. So I think I was there in 2012. And it was, Portugal was still very much going through like. the financial crisis. And it seemed like so much was closed. All the young people were like moving to other countries in Europe to find work. And it was really sad. I was like, God, the city is so beautiful, but it's so closed down right now. And then I heard, I mean, this is a weird year now because of COVID. But I heard that like Portugal was definitely like starting to thrive before everything shut down because of the pandemic. What was your impression since you've been there since then?

Yeah, so in 2018 and 2019 when I went, I mean, it was, it was vibrant. It was, you know, everybody was outside. All the bars were open in the center of town to like 2 a.m. Like it was, you know, they have a lot of festivals here in Portugal. And like there's one in June where people just party for a week and just all this music and everything. And that was one thing I was very excited about experiencing as I came to Lisbon. But right now, of course, around the world. lots of, we're in lockdown still here, but there's lots of things closed. Right now, there's also a lot of things for sale, lots of apartments and things, but it was really starting to boom. And I think this, like all the travel influencers as well, like Liz's been so beautiful on Instagram. Like, yeah, to learn people here. Also, the cost of living here compared to a lot of other European cities, especially for a capital city, is, is quite low. It's quite reasonable. At least in terms of food and everyday things, I find that the cost of living for your accommodation in Lisbon is actually higher than I expected.

Really? Okay. Yes, those prices haven't, the rental prices and the pandemic have come down, like buying property has not, but I would expect that the rentals are going to go up again pretty quickly once things open up. Yeah, so get over there now if you can. I wonder how easy it is even for people to become an expat. during these times. Yeah.

So if you go through the process in your home country, as I was saying, and you get that temporary visa in your passport, which they'll mail to you, you can actually enter Portugal because that is a legal right to enter the country. Right now, of course, a lot of flights don't even exist. But if you can get in, that's how I was able to come in actually at the end of December from the U.S. But it's, yeah, I think really soon that we're going to open back up. I hope April and May, you're going to start to see a lot more.

movement on that. Well, I would love to visit you in Lisbon. I would love to visit you in the UK, Sarah. I love the UK as well. And now I'm close. Yeah. Tokyo, it was quite a, quite a journey. Yes. Well, we've got like a festival happening from mid-July until November, this big art triennial where all these different public artists are going to be coming in and like doing their work. And so it's going to be a blast. So come on over. Amazing. All right. I missed visiting. last year. All right, let's pretend that the world doesn't have a pandemic. I would love to hear from you, like, if we're visiting Lisbon, what are some, like, must have experiences? Yeah, so I think that one of the first places you should go is the Torre de Belime, which is the,

kind of, you might say, Belm Tower. It was actually built in the 16th century, and it was the, it was like the embarkation and disembarkation point for travelers and explorers going out of Portugal. And it's just this beautiful tower. It's just a little bit outside of central Lisbon. But over there as well in Baleem, you also have Pashtes de Baleem, which is one of the most famous things. It's like a Portuguese egg tart is how it's often translated. And there's Pachtes de Nata, which is a different type of this egg tart. But Pest de Baleem is really famous.

But one thing you should know about this is when you're over there, you'll see a long line outside of the like the cafe restaurant. And you actually don't need to stand in that line. That's for people like just taking away. You can, the place is huge. Just walk in. Skip that line. That's not your line if you're planning to eat there. So it's a huge.

That is a great tip. Yes. Yes. And just those. I mean, I think a lot of people might even want to have a Portuguese actard is like the first thing they do. I think I did. that yeah, there you go. I think if you go to that area, you'll get to do both. And as my local Portuguese friends say, never have just one of those pastas de bala, mornatas,

always have a minimum of two because they're so small. You can really enjoy the taste that way. That sounds good. Yeah. Well, outside of Portugal, I think it's common to call them, yeah, Portuguese tarts. But if you go there, that's not what they're calling them. Yeah, that's one thing. And also just, I would say, like a lot of cities, I wouldn't say this, but have a walk around the center of Lisbon and just like Alfama, Baisha, these different neighborhoods, just walk because Portugal actually, Lisbon is a very safe city. Like they often say like it's the third safest city in the world or in Europe. And it is safe.

I've not felt, I've not felt scared. Even when I'd walk past somebody, I was a little like, it's dark. What's going to happen? Nothing has ever happened. So it's a safe city for. walking as well. So you mentioned that Portugal is quite, or Lisbon is quite safe and you feel safe like walking around at night. What do you, what do you get up to at night? What do you like to do? So as I was saying before, like a lot of the bars used to be open until two in the morning.

There's an area near timeout market, another place I would recommend you go, lots of different types of food in this market. It's called Kaish Dos Sotre. And it's also a station, a train station with a lot of different like boats are going out of there. It's a train line to the beach, all this stuff. But there's an area there called Pink Street, which is like a street of bars behind the near the timeout market. And that's a really fun place. Also, the area of Santos has a lot of bigger clubs if you want to do the club scene when you come. What if you just want something like a quiet drink outside? What's your go-to place? So one place I really like is called Cafe Got a which I think means garage.

But it's up the hill a little bit by the castle. And it's just a beautiful view. It has such a gorgeous view of Lisbon. And it's quite quiet. Not a lot of people know about it. And you can have a little cake and a coffee and just hang there for a long time. More private than just sitting out on the street. But another place for that might be the miradoru or the viewpoint of grasa.

There's like an outdoor cafe there. I love that viewpoint. Yeah, so seven hills in Lisbon. So lots of good views everywhere, I guess. You mentioned that there's like a few different neighborhoods. So what are the ones that we should check out? So I think that if you're looking for that classic, like this is Lisbon, the cobblestone streets and the old buildings, Alphama and Bysha are really popular for that. There's an area called Roscio.

This is, I think, the name of the train station, but Rosio and Martimonis, that those areas are really where a lot of tourists are walking around and looking up at all the beautiful buildings and things like that. I also like this area. I don't think it's as touristy, but it's called Alcantara. And it's close. It's a nice launch point to go to the beach. And you have a train that'll take you to the beach in less than like 30 minutes, sometimes 10. minutes you're, you know, to a beach that has sand and you can bring your umbrella, all that stuff. There's also even surf lessons in Lisbon at some of these beaches. But it's also close to

the biggest park in Lisbon, which is called Monsanto. It's a massive park. But this area has, like, it's also close to this place called the LX factory, which is another like street of bars and artsy shops and things like that. So I love that area because it has a lot of different things altogether. But it's not your classic Lisbon look. It's more along the river. Cool. Well, we want to mix. We want to mix things around when we're visiting Lisbon. So you mentioned, like, you can take the train to the beach. Is there a particular beach that you like? So on that train line, I like to go to Carcovelos, which is like probably from that Kaish to Sotteret station I mentioned. It's probably 15 to 20 minutes. And yeah, you just walk out and like five more minutes after you reach the. the beach are just like surrounded by people. You feel like you could be, you know, in Spain or any of these beaches and you're just looking out. I will say, one thing people may not know is that the water isn't warm.

It's cold. You could go in for like a really quick dip and refresh yourself, but it's not really a swimming temperature. Well, I mean, I've lived in England for nearly 10 years and have never gone in the ocean. And I used to be like such a water baby, but at some point I just, I don't know. I didn't want to go in cold water. But now I have friends who are doing like the cold water plunges and I'm really into stoicism right now. And so I plan on doing that as well. And so I think I am going to take a dip in Portugal. I think I'm going to brave it. It's fantastic in the summer because you do get so hot sitting on that beach. And they even have like you can go scuba diving in another part just outside of Lisbon with the proper suit, you know, and to stay warm. But yeah, there's, I love all the water sports.

I grew up in Ohio not like far from the beach. So this is still a novelty for me. And Tokyo also had, you know, it was on the ocean, but there wasn't a lot, you know, weren't a lot of places to really sit and enjoy yourself like in central Tokyo on the beach. Yeah. Didn't have the beach vibe city. So what does like a perfect weekend look like for you in Lisbon? I would say a little bit of getting out to on like a day trip, for example,

Centra is really famous as a day trip coming out of Lisbon. It's only like an hour from Lisbon on a train, sometimes even 45 minutes. And there's palaces and mysterious like wells that have spiral staircases down into the ground. Like it's such an amazing place. And I would spend probably if I'd never been to Lisbon one day over there because it's so magical checking it out. And just spending time at a cafe drinking. vinou verde or green wine, which is actually white wine, but it's very fresh, new grapes. And so it tastes very sweet. Or maybe port wine as well, which comes from Porto in the north. And I would just

honestly, I love walking. So I would just walk around those streets and maybe pop into a couple of bookstores. And yeah, have a nice dinner somewhere. There's so much alfresco dining, like so much outside. I would do that too. I feel like we're going to be best friends, Becky, because those are my favorite activities as well, just walking around and sitting at cafes and getting either coffee or wine, my favorite thing in the world. All at a good price, too, Sarah. I think that's, yeah, that's another thing is you don't have to feel so guilty here. Oh, I'll give you a quick food tip, though.

So when you go to these cafes, especially if you're going to eat food, it's custom in the restaurants to have the waiters bring you all of these like little entrees or appetizers. and they'll just set them down. And it's like bread, like maybe a cup of olives and on these things. And if you start eating them, you're paying for them. But if you don't want them, you just say, I'm not going to have them and they'll take them away. But I made that mistake the first time I had all of them, you know, and started eating them. And you're like, well, that was a more expensive meal than I expected. So. Yeah.

Well, while we're on the topic, what is the tipping culture like there? It's around 10%. Like people will either just leave. of extra coins or I've been going with 10%. As an American, I want to do 20, but my European friends said, what are you crazy? That's not what we do here. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's the thing. Like, you might want to do what's in your culture, but then it can hurt people in other cultures because I'm sure, like, people who are from Portugal who want to go out and have a nice meal. Like, if their culture gets upended because other people are like throwing too much money around,

that might mean they can't go out anymore. And so. Yeah. might actually increase the prices all around. So you mentioned Porto or like how easy the trains were. I really loved Porto so much. It was such a gorgeous city with all of these buildings with these beautiful tiles. And I think like I don't know what the Harry Potter connection was. Like I think J.K. Rowling had been there and then had like one of the bookstores kind of like inspired her. Do you know any of that stuff?

Oh, yeah. So I love Harry Potter. And so J.K. Rowling actually taught English and had a Portuguese ex-husband. Her first husband was Portuguese. So I don't know how much time she spent in Portugal, but not only the bookstore in Porto was, I guess, inspired her, but also if you visit the city of Coimbra, which is between Lisbon and Porto, if you walk around there, it's got a very large student population and the students wear robes. And you're like, this looks familiar. And also some of the, I was on a tour in Coimbra, and they were talking about the dictator who was, who ruled Portugal for like 40 years. And his name is Salazar. Does that sound familiar to anyone? So, yes, it was, I was like, this is a direct connection, Salazar Slytherin, you know. So, yeah, it's really interesting. And I definitely also want to recommend Coimbra to people if you haven't been.

And it's a lively student town in normal times and beautiful library there. And I think also in Harry Potter inspired architecture. Yeah. Is there any, so you mentioned like the 40-year dictatorship. Is there anything else like historically or like culturally we should be aware of before we go to Portugal? They have this concept in Portugal called Salda-a-de-i. And I'm not going to be saying that right. But it's this, it's this culture of when they were going out on their ships.

you know, back in the 1500s, and the wives and the women were staying, or the friends were staying in Portugal and saying goodbye, it's this like longing. It's this missing people that would go away. And that plays into a lot of their music here as well. There's an instrument called Fadu, and there's a music. The music is also called Fadu. And it's all of these songs of longing coming from that time. And it's another great thing about the culture to see a Fadu performance. You're not going to dance to it at a club, but it's a really, like, I always get into kind of as this, you know, you're talking about stoicism, like this meditative state when I listen to it. And it's almost more magical when you don't understand what they're saying. But I'm sure that it's, it's got a lot of meaning and poignance when you do. Yeah, I haven't had the chance to see a show like that yet, but I definitely want to. Is that something that is mostly geared toward the tourists, or is it still part of the culture for people who live there? I feel more and more. It's something that is for the tourists, but I saw the Fadu in Coimbra, and yes, it was for tourists, but it's also got a huge history amongst the university students. They go out and play Fadu, and there would be, I think, clubs or Fadu clubs where they would be playing. But Lisbon has the most Fadu places. I feel like when it's stuff like this, it kind of ebbs and flows. Like you've got your historical, like your history, and then, you it becomes more of like a touristy thing, but then at a certain point, the young people are like, wait a minute, I want to reconnect to my culture and my heritage, and then it becomes popular again. Yes, yes. And I think it's really lovely to hold on to as much of that culture as we can and, you know, take it back and keep it within the places where they originated. I've seen that a lot with Japan as well, a country that really holds on to its culture. And I like that about Portugal as well,

that you can feel a lot of those things, especially when you get outside of Lisbon. Well, we talked about some towns. I heard Porto, like, it was mostly like English, like, I don't know, winemakers, liquor makers, who created a lot of those institutions. Do you know anything about that? I want to say that that sounds right,

but I don't know for sure. I do know that the Doro Valley is, like, outside of Porto is where a lot of this wine is made. And I do think there were local, there were a lot of local people as well. But yeah, I want to look more into that because I definitely want to go back to Porto. I've been twice now, but I want to have some more port and go to the Dura Valley. That's another beautiful part of Portugal that I myself haven't been to either. Hello, hello, just popping in here to say really quick that I went back to find my notes from when I went to Porto.

And that was actually in 2013. And when I'm on walking tours, I really like to take notes on what I'm learning because I don't remember everything. And I think the history is really interesting. So here's what I wrote down about Porto. In the 1400s, the king started sending ships out on these global expeditions making Portugal very rich. And the people were so excited about this exploration that they gave their best meat to the sailors and then they ate tripe, which is guts. Now it's a vegetarian. I think that is so gross, but that's what they did, and you can still eat tripe in Porto, and it goes back centuries. Port wine came about when England was fighting with France and

needed another country to get wine from, so regular wine doesn't travel that well, and so port was created with a different fermentation process to preserve the flavor, so they actually added brandy to stop the fermentation process, which portifies the wine. And a few sudden, earlier in 1386, England and Portugal signed the Treaty of Windsor, and that's the oldest diplomatic and commercial alliance in the world. By the time we get to the 17th and 18th centuries, the Portuguese were managing the wine-growing side of things. So they were owning the land, and that was their side of the business. And then England, or the English, were dealing with the export side of wine. But in the 1800s, this invasive insect that came from the Americas

made its way through some ship to the wine region, unfortunately. In the insecticide, they used to kill it, ruined the vineyards for a decade. And many landowners just didn't have the money to hang on for that long. And so they sold their estates to the British. And that is why you see a lot of property that's British owned in that region today. The grapes that you make port with come from the Dwarro Valley, and the Romans were producing wine here 2,000 years ago, so it goes way back the wine production. Some other fun facts about Porto,

and sorry if I'm in, I feel like I'm enunciating this very hard, but that's just what's coming out of my mouth. Porto. So Porto used to be called Porto Calais, And that is where the name Portugal comes from. And at some point in this episode, Becky mentioned a big party in Portugal that happens in June. And that's June 23rd for the St. John's celebration. And that's, they say the best party in Porto is in the old town for this.

So anyway, that's what I wrote down quite a few years ago at this point. I don't know if that still holds true. But anyway, Porto is stunning, especially on a sunny day. I'm absolutely in love with that city and definitely want to go back. and highly recommend it to you. Now back to my conversation with Becky. Becky, you mentioned the Portuguese tarts. I'm not even going to try to pronounce what their real name is.

What are some other like foods or drinks we should try when we're in Portugal? So as I also mentioned the green wine, the vino verde, the port. People may not know that port is from portu, like porto. And by the way, whenever you see an O at the end of a word in Portugal, it's actually U, so porto. So also baccalao, baccalao, I'm going to say it wrong. It means codfish, and it is on basically every menu in a Portuguese restaurant, and it can be served in 50 different ways. So like codfish with spinach, codfish baked, codfish fried, like all these different things.

That's probably the most famous food, but after the Portuguese egg tart. I remember also trying a cherry, like liquor. Uh-huh. Ah, Jinja. I'm saying that wrong as well. It's, yes, it's a, it's a cherry liquor and it also is served in lots of different places, especially now in central Lisbon, but it's on the menu as well. It's, it reminded me of like cherry cough syrup when I was growing up, but I liked it. I can't even remember what it tastes like. I just remember somebody saying, you have to try this when you're in Lisbon, because they have their only little bars selling this. Yeah. So I can't remember what my impression was, but I did try it. Yeah, try it. Try it, guys, when you come. It's really nice. And again, that local culture, anything that came from Portugal, give it a try. It's really cool. So, Becky, do we have time to do a little bit of a lightning round? We do, but I wanted to say one other thing before I forget. A lot of people don't realize that Portugal also has islands. And so you have Madeira Island and a lot of people that call them. the Azores, which is a nine island chain. And it's an hour and a half flight to Madeira, two and a

half to the Azores. And it's like, when you come here and especially you're living here, they get access to all of this stuff. We've got Hawaii, like two and a half hours away. Not exactly the same temperature, but you know. But you've got the beauty. Yes. Yes. So are these, so I know that these are becoming more and more popular. What, what are these islands like? are they kind of resorty? Are they still more natural? So I've been to Madeira twice, but I haven't been to the Azores yet. Everyone tells me that the Azores are a lot more like rural still and not so developed, not so many hotels. I think it's more about hiking and it's more about just like taking it slow and enjoying the natural beauty. That is definitely the case for Medaira. There's not much in

the way of sandy beaches. There's like another island you can get to an hour and a half ferry from there that has a sandy beach. But yeah, Medaira is just beautiful. It has so many hiking trails. And this, the capital, uh, Funchal, the main city there is also really beautiful. So many places to see. Yeah. In such a small country. But that's another thing. It's a small country, but it really, it really has so much to offer. Are you learning the language? Yes, I am. Actually, I'm like, I'm saying the Azores but people are going to call me out. It's actually the Azoresh. And so that's been a challenge. I did study Spanish in high school. And so I'm trying to pronounce everything the Spanish way. And that is one of the things is that the spelling and the pronunciation can be a struggle to learn Portuguese.

But it's really nice to know that when I go to Brazil, I'm going to have this language to be able to use. Yes. Well, so talented, Becky. English, Japanese, Portuguese. I speak a I speak Italian and when I was in Portugal, I had no idea. I was like, this is a romance language. It sounds like Russian to me. It just sounded, I could not understand any of it. Yes. And especially in Europe, the European Portuguese, they swallow a lot of their vowels. So it does sound a lot like shush, shush, like you're listening for that distinction in the middle of a word and you're not getting it. So that's, yeah. How are you learning the language? So I have a combination of a class that I'm paying a monthly fee for online. It's called Portuguese Language Lab. Shout out. And then I have, I'm using iTalki or I Talki.com.

And I just started having one-on-one classes there, just like I'm paying by the class with someone who's, I wanted to make sure she was from Portugal, not Brazil, because they're actually quite different with pronunciation. So I'm focusing on European Portuguese. Yeah, that's smart. I, to keep up my Italian, just watch like this Italian drama, The Paradiso de la signore, but I would love to practice with a human being. And so I'm going to check out I talki. I recommend that because you can choose where your teacher is from, because especially you're thinking about Spanish, that Spanish is really different depending on Spain, Mexico, Argentina, like it's very different. So it's really nice to know where they're coming from. Yeah, yeah.

Well, good on you for being in a pandemic and still making the effort to learn. This is how I meet people these days, Sarah. This is how I meet new people is online. Well, that's how I met people, like, in person whenever I, like, I've moved to Italy, like, on and off in different places. And the first thing I would do is set up a conversation exchange with somebody in real life. One, because you have somebody to hang out with. And, two, it's, like, the best way to practice the language. Also, like, I love talking with my teacher because anything that, like, practical, it's not going to be something I can find on the website that I'm paying for. So I'm like, no, what really do they say when you're doing in this situation? Like I said, let's pretend we're in a taxi and like all these things. And I love just writing it down and getting access to that.

Yeah, yeah. And it's different when you're just like listening and like watching or reading when you have like that practice of actually speaking. What I've found with language learning is that I need the grammar kind of taught to me with the watching the videos and practicing. But then we can use that grammar in like real time in the conversation. But I don't, it's hard, I think, to stop my conversation partner and be like, no, no, can you, can you tell me about that verb conjugation? It's like, whoa. Yeah, I learned my Italian on the streets. That's awesome. That's like, yeah.

I wish that I had that way of learning, but I find myself going back to my students. student days and needing some grammar charts and things like that. All right. Are you ready to do a little lightning round of Lisbon? I am. Yes. What tour would you recommend in Lisbon? Oh, so I always say start with a walking tour in the center.

Usually they're free and you just tip what you want. Learn the history. Learn these different facts. Also on that tour, just on the side, ask the person like, where would you like to eat? Or what cafes do you recommend? And it's fantastic. Also, Airbnb experiences. There are so many. A lot of people don't even know about them. But Airbnb, besides booking your place to stay, also offers tours. And they're really distinctive and unique. Tours and then also like cooking classes and all sorts of things. Yeah, I love it. I've been on so many of them waiting for them to fully come back. Yeah. They're doing digital things as well, but I'm waiting for the real thing. Yeah. The in-person experience. Would you say, like, Lisbon's pretty big. Would you say it's a walk-up?

city or do we need to take the tram or like how do you get around usually? So the center of Lisbon is very walkable. But there's a tram called the number 28, which is the historic tram that a lot of people take as tourists. And it's also practical, get you around. But yeah, it's, you can definitely walk within the city. It's another great thing. It's not a big city. You'll be nice and fit if you're living in Lisbon going up and down all of these hills. Yes. What is your favorite cafe? Oh, I already gave it away. Cafe Garajem, as I mentioned, near the Castello de San Jorge. What is the cafe culture like in Portugal?

It's very slow and relaxed. A lot of people, okay, I say that, but also a lot of people just go into a cafe, stand up, have an espresso, chat quickly with the owner and then leave. So you have both types. Yeah, that sounds very, very Italian. in. So especially like on the work day, you'll go in, bang back your espresso and then go to work. But if you're feeling more leisurely, then you're sitting down and hanging out and having like a pastry with your coffee. Yeah, we have both options. There's less of that third wave coffee here. Like there are places like that, but it's more about the quick coffees or just the American, let's say the American coffee, Americano type and just, you know, lots of people like to read a lot here. Just not just taking and slow. Yeah, that sounds so good to me. What's your favorite restaurant? Oh, so I have to say,

I don't have a lot of experience with this because of being here in the pandemic, but there was a Italian pizza place that I really loved, which the name is actually escaping me, but it's, like, they actually have a lot of good pizza places here. But yeah, I haven't, I haven't been out to too many restaurants yet. I will say to give you an exact name, there's a chain of, well, it's not a chain, but there's like this trend here called like illegal Chinese. And it's basically people who have opened Chinese or like restaurants in their apartments. So they're not legally operating. But if you're looking for more like traditional Chinese food, it's interesting to go up there and like going into the apartment, are you open? Like that was fun. That was a lot of fun. Look that up. I, I,

love this. And I'm seeing it kind of around here as well, I'm not going to give names because I don't want to get anyone into trouble if they're not. But like on Facebook, because of the pandemic, I've seen people, yeah, open up different like vegan like food services and they've got the menu up and they'll deliver themselves twice a week. And yeah, people have gotten very inventive in this time. Yeah, it's really interesting. I love like going behind the scenes like that, you know. So I do love a nice, meal at a nice restaurant sometimes. But to me, that's almost like a more authentic laid-back experience. Yeah. Knocking on doors. Do you have any food tonight? Yes, exactly. Is there a market culture in that's been like food market or designer market? There is. So especially with food,

I like the markets in Adoish. It's like A-R-R-O-I-S. There's a nice. There's a nice. market there and also in a neighborhood called Campo de Arek. But also, as I mentioned, the timeout market, there's a market that has vegetables and fruit behind the main building, which has all these different restaurants, including like Thai restaurants, Indian restaurants. There's a nice sampling of different cultures from around the world there and some very nice gelato as well, Sarah. Very nice. Italian gelato here. Sounds good to me. Where do you like to go when you're in the mood for some culture. This could be theater. This can be dance. You mentioned, I would have pronounced it Fado, but you're saying Fadush. Fadu. Fadu. I have to say Fadu because I haven't experienced

enough of it yet. I haven't even been to one in Lisbon since the pandemic. So I want to explore more of that and find like, again, I love finding the underside or the hidden part of the culture that feels more natural. And that comes about when you are, of course, living in a place longer. But yeah, then I like to share that with any friends who come to visit me. So I'm going to check out the Fadu scene as soon as I can. Are there any like other hidden gems you want to tell us about? Oh yeah. So there is a viewpoint in the middle of Monsanto Park. And I think if you look on Google Maps, it's called like panoramic who or panoramic restaurant. The restaurant closed down like years and years ago. But it's like this decaying two-story building.

that you're allowed to go into. I don't know really why you're allowed to go in, but it's almost like this abandoned complex that people will go in and you can climb up to the second floor and get this beautiful view of the bridge and Christ the Redeemer statue. It's really beautiful. And it feels like you're discovering it yourself because it's in the middle of the park. That's so cool. Can you imagine that in the States? No way. You want to climb into an abandoned building? I don't think so. No, no, but that was, I mean, my local friend took me there. And I think it is known by some people, but it was really, it was really cool. Yeah. Oh, that is neat. What neighborhood should we stay in if we're visiting Lisbon? I would say somewhere near Rosio or even Grasa or Bysha. It would be good, just down by the close to the water, but also that first time like seeing all those cobblestones. and beautiful buildings right outside of your door. Yes, I agree. You have to do that. I'm currently in South Nanya, which is a little bit up the hill, and it's more like almost like the business district,

but not a lot of skyscrapers or anything, but it's just you're like, it's flatter up at the top, but it's, you know, not as culturally interesting every day, I would say. Yeah, I guess you're a local at this point. Yeah, I stopped climbing the hills as much, at least for a few months.

I'll move again soon, I'm sure, check out a new part of the city. What museum would you recommend? So my first time in Lisbon, I went to the Tile Museum. And Lisbon is also known for having these gorgeous tiles on its buildings, on the floors, everywhere. And it was cool. It was a small museum, but it was a very nice place to go. Also, if you're coming here with kids, the Oceanarium, here is very impressive. I haven't been myself, but I keep hearing so much about it that as soon as it opens again, I want to go.

Well, Becky, is there anything else that you wanted to add? Oh, I've just say, come to Lisbon, bring your walking shoes, ladies. Not a lot of reason to bring high heels here, I have to say. Bring comfortable shoes and bring your curiosity and you're really going to enjoy Lisbon. It's a city a lot of people tell me that they fall in love with very quickly. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for spending some time with me today. Where can we find out more about you? Yes. So I have a podcast myself called The School of Travels. So if you go to the School of Travels.com, you can find my episodes there, which I do talk about what people have learned from their travels. And yeah, check it out there. And if you want to check more about my posts from, you know, Japan a few years ago, I also have a blog called Tokyobecky.com. And that's also.

on Instagram. So, Tokyo, Becky. All right. Thank you, Becky. Thank you, Sarah. That's all for now. Go ahead and follow the show or hit subscribe so you can hear more episodes like this. And if you would like my help taking bold action on your own dreams, like living abroad, changing careers and other life transitions, visit live without borderspodcast.com. Thanks for listening and have a beautiful week wherever you are. Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free conversation sheet sheet with simple formulas that you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you're in a meeting or just talking with friends. Download it at sarah micotel.com slash blank no more.