Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - Walking Spain's Camino de Santiago

Episode Date: April 8, 2022

Have you ever felt like you’ve hit a brick wall in life? Burned out. Not sure what to do next. This happened to our guest today and she’s here to share how walking the Camino de Santiago, a 500-mile trek across Spain, helped her rediscover her spark. I’m talking to Christine Job, a business strategist and host of “Flourish in the Foreign,” a podcast that celebrates and elevates the voices Black women who are thriving abroad. Christine’s an American who’s been living in Spain for the last five years. I really loved what she has to say about how the Camino de Santiago transformed her life and what made it such a powerful experience. She also gives us advice on how to make this Spanish pilgrimage ourselves. We started chatting like old friends as soon as we got on the mics, so I don’t do a formal ‘welcome to the show…’ We just jump right into a conversation about Valencia, where Christine recently moved. Enjoy!Hello! I'm your host, Sarah Mikutel. But the real question is, who are you? Where are you now and where do you want to be? Can I help you get there?Visit sarahmikutel.com to learn how we can work together to help you achieve more peace, happiness, and positive transformation in your life.Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

Welcome to Live Without Borders, a travel and wellness show for expats, the expat curious, and globally minded citizens of the world. We are the travelers, the culturally curious, the experiences and not things kind of people. And we know that freedom is about more than getting on a plane. It's about becoming the most heroic versions of ourselves, which is why on this podcast you will hear insider travel secrets, inspiring expat stories, and advice on how to live abroad. but you will also hear episodes that will help give you the clarity, focus, and skills you need to create a life that will set your soul on fire. I am your host, Sarah Micatel, a certified clarity coach trained in the Enneagram, and I first moved abroad on my own at age 18, and I have been permanently enjoying life in Europe since 2010. If you are ready to make some big moves in your life

and want my help moving from someday to seize the day, visit live without borderspodcast.com. Have you ever felt like you have hit a brick wall in life? You're burned out. You're not sure what to do next. This happened to our guest who is here today to talk about how walking the Camino de Santiago, which is a 500-mile trek across Spain, helped her rediscover who she is and what she wants out of life. I'm talking to Christine Job. She is a business strategist and host of the flourish in the foreign podcast, which celebrates and elevates the voices of black women who are thriving abroad. Christine is an American who has been living in Spain for the last. five years and I really loved what she had to say about how the Camino de Santiago transformed her life and what made it such a powerful experience. She's also here to give us some advice on how we can make this Spanish pilgrimage ourselves. Christine and I started chatting like old friends as soon as we got on the mics so I don't do a formal welcome to the show. We just sort of jump right into the conversation where I'm asking Christine about Valencia, her new Spanish city where she just moved. What's your new apartment like?

Lovely. It is in the middle of Old Town, Valencia. And the last time I lived in like an Old Town city center was definitely when I was living in La Rioja. And I wasn't really in the old town like cobblestone part. I was like two streets away. But I really enjoy it. I thought I was going to hate it. Like I liked the apartment.

But then I was like, I don't know. It's going to be so weird tourists. It's going to be whatever. And last week was Fias, which is a huge festival of fireworks and merriment. and there were fireworks at 7 a.m. and marching bands down the street at 8 and then street parties until 6 a.m. But after that, it's actually been quite lovely. It has so much charm, you know. I love historical centers. So, yeah, I think I would love where you're living. But really quick, what's Fias? Fias is like the spring festival here. It's really beautiful. They build these intricate sculptures.

and they take like a whole year to do. And sometimes they have like a political meaning. So it's kind of interesting. Like the sculptures become kind of like our New Year's wrap up. You know, when they do at the end of the year, like this is what the things that happen this year. It's kind of like that. They also have some that are just kind of like traditional and nice and they have like

some kid ones. But they spend all this time like building it and they're in all of these plazas all around the city. And so it becomes like a walking like art gallery. And you get to see and it's so beautiful. You take all the pictures. And then there's the fireworks, which are supposed to kind of like dust off, I guess, like the winter blues trying to like get you reinvigorated, get you ready. And then at the very end of Faya celebration is the crema, which they burn down all of these beautiful sculptures.

And only one is saved for the museum. So it's kind of like not only you're releasing last year, but also you're learning how to let go, right? So it's really cool. Yeah. It really speaks to my heart of, yeah, just setting it free, setting it free. It reminds me of Burning Man. I'm guessing this festival came first. Yes.

Yeah, but it's quite lovely. I mean, as an outsider, I studied here 15 years ago, which is like horrible to say. I'm like, 15 years ago, but it's true. 15 years ago. And, you know, living here is so different. and then really being amongst everyone during this festival, like you start to understand people more. And it's weird.

We're not weird. It's just like it's the essence. It's the things are not spoken, right? It's how people are excited. It's how people join in in street celebrations. There was a huge street celebration on my street, which was convenient because I could just like peep out and be like, okay, yeah. But it was a mixture of like young college students and like, you know,

hippies and then some of the older residents who kind of got caught in and they're like, okay, let's party. You know? They're just going with it. Yeah. So you start learning kind of like what is the spirit of a city of a culture of a society. And I feel like here in Spain, you have like definitely a Spanishness. But really, it's it's very regional.

Like they're very, it's community, it's, you know, region, it's province, it's Pueblo. And you really start understanding people that way. Where is Valencia in Spain geography? It is south of Catalonia where Barcelona is. So Barcelona is more north. And then Valencia is along the coast as well to south. It's also it's between Barcelona and Malaga. So Malaga being even further south.

Closer to Africa, closer to like, I think it's not Fez, like Tangier in Morocco. So you mentioned that you lived in Valencia 15 years ago. So how did you decide on that place for your, is that study abroad, I'm guessing? Yeah, 15 years ago, I decided to study abroad here in Valencia. And honestly, it was part of my major. I studied in, I studied business. In here, I studied international business in Spanish, literature, Latin American literature, professional Spanish. But truly, I was one of those. young, 20-year-olds that came into college and was like, look, I'm going to study abroad. I'm leaving this place. I'm not going to be on campus the entire time. And my advisor was like, oh, well, let's think about it. And I was like, no, I'm definitely going to leave.

And so I went to like all the study abroad fairs that they had. And, you know, back then it wasn't so eco-friendly. So they had like these beautiful, like glossy, high-color definition, you know, brochures. And they just gave them out everywhere. And I collected every single one of them. And was like, this is amazing. I want to go everywhere. Tanzania, yeah, Costa Rica, yeah. And that's when my advisor did come in and was like, okay, but you know, you are a business major. So do we want to make that work or do you have, you know, so many funds, you know, disposable funds where you can just do

study abroad without, you know, credits that actually go to your major? And that was not the case. I was, I had to work throughout college. So I had some sense and decided on Valencia. And not really for anything other than I want to study abroad and this fits my major. Like, that was basically it. I had been to Spain before, but not Valencia. And I was just up for the adventure. So did you grow up traveling with your parents then? What was your first Spanish trip?

Yeah, I grew up kind of like a military brat, but not in the way most people think of it. My parents divorced really early on. So my mom would get stationed away. She got stationed in the Philippines for a time. Korea, my dad would get stationed. So I was the military brat that got ping pong between family members in California and in Texas. And so I started to fly as an unaccompanied minor when I was like three or four because back in those days, you could do that. I don't know about now, but they would be like, yeah, put this little kid on, you know, hold the flight attendant's hand.

You'll be fine. And so that kind of started it. And then my dad, when I was about 10, actually got stationed in Germany with the Air Force. And so I started to internationally, like, travel to go visit him. And he would take me to Austria and France. But then also, you know, my mom got out of the military and she continued traveling. You know, her girlfriends were mostly from her time in the military. So they were all, like, travelers.

So they would go to Mexico. And they, my mom actually came to. Spain before I did. They would go on girls' trips. So I think like that kind of atmosphere just made it just welcoming. It wasn't strange to travel and I wanted to. So by the time I graduated from high school, there was an opportunity for a high, like a graduation gift to go on a tour of Spain. And my parents were very gracious enough to gift that to me. And that was really lovely. You know, I remember a lot of other students were like really nervous and they were like crying, their parents were crying.

And it was like a two week trip. It wasn't like very long. And I was like, okay, bye, see you in two weeks. You know, I'm like, let's go. Let's do it. That sounds so exciting. And wow, well, yeah, it sounds like you were raised traveling. So it kind of comes naturally to you.

And now you're not just traveling. You're actually living abroad. So tell me how you went from like. frequent traveler to expat. Yeah, I always knew I wanted to live abroad. I think I have to attribute it to, one, and my grandparents on my dad's side, and I guess my dad included, are immigrants.

They immigrated from Trinidad. So that concept of getting up and moving is not new. But I knew, and I think it's from my time visiting my dad in Germany, where I was like, hey, I'm in a, I'm on a different continent. I'm in a different country. I don't really speak German, but, you know, at the time I could speak, actually, I can speak proficient bakery German, which meant I can be sent by myself to go to the bakery and get my favorite little, little, like, sweets. And that was about it.

That gets the job done. Exactly. But, you know, when I was older, like right before I actually went to college, I kind of just knew I wanted to. leave. You know, I'm from Atlanta, and the southern part of the United States is still quite traditional and conservative, no matter really where it is. So when I'm talking with my friends about, yeah, I'm going to go to college, we're going to do all this stuff. A lot of it was we're going to go to college. We're going to meet someone. We're going to get married. And then we're going to, like, you know, settle in Atlanta or somewhere else in the south or something like that. And I was like,

I don't know about that. I want to see. see the world. I knew I wanted to see the world. And my friends thought that was like strange. They thought maybe it was like a passing fancy. And it really wasn't. So after I graduated from college, I really wanted to figure out how could I live abroad? And I had no idea. And also, this was 2009, which was a horrible time to graduate from university. It was like economic crisis. You went to college. You did all the things you're supposed to do. And now you can't get a job. And so, So I was, like, struggling to be honest because it had a bit of an identity crisis, right? I did everything that was supposed to do.

And I couldn't get a job. I was like a horrible waitress that like made no tips because I was a horrible waitress. And then I worked at like the gap, which I was actually very good at. And I think has definitely kind of started the sparks of entrepreneurship for me. But it was just like, this is not what was promised. And then on top of that, I was like, I. like, I want to leave and I don't know how to do it. And I would talk to my mom about it and I'd be like, do you know anyone that works abroad? And she still had like a Rolodex at this time. And she was like,

I don't know. Let me look. And I was cold calling people in 2009 being like, hey, I don't know if you remember Adrian, my mother, but I'm her daughter, Christine. I just graduated from college. And I heard that you like work abroad or you travel for work or something. Can we talk? Can I get a job. Like, it was that kind of grasping at straws. Like, it just was, it was fruitless. Like, nothing really panned out. So what did pan out? How did you end up moving forward? I decided to go to law school, which I can't say is a great idea to do to pass the time. But I did. I went to law school. I decided while I was in law school, I didn't really want to be a lawyer and ended up working for an incubator, a startup incubator, after graduation. And I was a

And that was actually really pivotal because right after I graduated from law school, we went on a business trade mission to Namibia and South Africa. And that changed everything for me, truly. Because one, I hadn't been to the continent before. So I was like, oh, my goodness, this is fantastic and so stimulating. I feel like it was like incredible. But I remember a specific moment. I was in Namibia and we were being hosted by the then U.S. ambassador to Namibia. and she was a black woman.

And she greeted us. You know, her staff opened the doors and led us into her compound. And she had a whole thing set up. And I was like, oh, my goodness. I knew that black women could be ambassadors, but I've never met one. And it's like this context of seeing her in Namibia, being a professional, doing what she wants to do. And I was like, I have to make it happen.

So from that, that experience, I was like, I have to figure it out. What ended up happening was that I left that startup. I floundered a little bit. I ended up landing a job with another startup in Kuala Lumpur. It fell through at the last minute after I'd already like packed up my stuff, my apartment, stuff like that. And that led me to, on a very much whim, decide to walk the community of Santiago in 2014. And that changed everything, like everything in the entire world.

for me. Can you just explain what that walk is for people who might not be familiar? Yeah, the Camino Santiago is a religious pilgrimage, but you don't have to be Catholic or Christian and things like that, but it is a pilgrimage across Spain. There's many different routes. The most popular is the Camino-Francest, and it starts in San Jean-Puy de Port and on the French side of the Pyrenees. And then you can go over on the first stage to the...

Spanish side of the Pyrides. And it ends in Santiago de Compostela in Galicia, Spain. And then you can go on to Finisterra, which is on the Atlantic coast of Spain. And it's about a 800-kilometer walk, which I think is about 500 miles. And it is, yeah, it's a walk. You have everything on your back. You stay in hostels that are special for the pilgrims that are called Alberges, which, can be super nice and super not. Some of them feel like, oh, this is modern. Some of them feel like this is medieval. This is what they were doing back then.

And it's just a wonderful experience of deep, active meditation, I believe, of connection. There's a saying that the Camino provides. So it's very much like the universe provides. Things will end up where it needs to be. There's a lot of letting go on the Camino because you can't resist like walking. 500 miles. Like, it's something that you have to allow. You have to allow your body to adapt. It's not going to be as fast as you want it or your body may be injured or what have you. You know, you know, you learn so much about your body. You learn so much about the stored emotions within

your body as they come bubbling up to the surface. You learn so much about truly, and this is going to be cheesy, you know, the journey of life and not the destinations of life. And, and, and how you have maybe previously been managing that and how the Camino, it kind of makes you surrender to a easier path, if that makes sense, right? 500 miles doesn't sound like the easiest, easiest, most restful kind of surrendering kind of pace, but it really does because you recognize that resistance is futile in most of life, but definitely on the Camino. So that is the Camino. Yeah, I mean, when we started speaking, you were talking about the festival in Valencia now and how people, you know, build everything up all year and then set fire to these monuments. And it's about like letting go. And it sounds like this is something similar, sort of like burning what was the past, you know, any baggage that may have been there and moving forward to what's next and something lighter and I guess more true. Definitely. There's actually.

a tradition that some people do, which is you can carry a stone on your person and your backpack. Some people put it in their shoe. I'm not that type of pilgrim. And they walk all the way to Cruz de Faro, which is a place where on a kind of mountain top where there's a cross and you lay down your burdens. It's a big symbol for that. And it could be a rock. It could be a note and things like that. Some people have gotten a little bit too much.

They're like, please, just keep it small and biodegradable. gradeable, please. You know, it's like nature. But it's really powerful, you know, just to sit there. Because most people go to Crucifaro, if they're not walking through, like if they are in the next town before it, we get up really early to watch the sunrise, to lay down their burdens, to reflect upon the journey that they have, they've already have experienced with that burden, right? And really that journey of how am I going to let it. go. Because honestly, a lot of times it's, if we could let it go, we would, right? If it was a say, I let it go. But it's mostly thinking about how will I let it go? How will I release this?

What part of me is attached to this burden in some kind of capacity. And who may I become once I release it? Who may I have to become if I release it? And so you you lay that burden down. To me, this sounds very much like connecting more to the essence of who you are, you know, day to day, we get caught up in our like everyday patterns and habits. And this sounds like a refreshing way to connect to what is underneath all of that. I'm curious, how did this change you? Yeah. So I have to be honest, Sarah, I didn't want to walk the community of Santiago, which is very strange, right? So I was supposed to, I had a job offer in July of 24. It fell through at the very beginning.

And I was angry and distraught. You know, I had given up my cute apartment in the city and I was in the suburbs with my mom. And I was like, no, I don't want to do this. And I just didn't know what I was supposed to do. And so when I was in Atlanta, where my mom used to live, there was a mountain park. And so I would go hiking very angrily up the park, trying to like release anger and all these things. And then finally, one day, like, I think. it was like two days into my angry walking. A thought came to me and it said, walk the community of

Santiago. And it was very strange because I had only heard about the community of Santiago one time before. I tried to push it aside. It kept on coming to me in a way that still to this day, I can't really explain. It was quite dogged. And I was just like, no, give me something else. This is weird. And it wouldn't leave me for about two more days. So finally, I went to the computer and was like, what is this Camino Santiago? And I saw it's like, 500 miles. I was like, nope, can't do this. And I just was in a lot of prayer and meditation.

I was just like, why? Like, why is this being given to me? Why is this the next step? And I couldn't deny that it was. I couldn't explain it. And that's what happened. And then I start the Camino on the first. day, which was actually quite lovely. It was beautiful, right? It was, you know, you're walking up

these green hills that turn into like the French Pyrenees. There's like these beautiful farm cows that are like at the fence and they're, it's so picturesque. It's kind of crazy. So beautiful. But then like the last five, three to five kilometers, it's like very downhill coming into Spain. And it was so mentally tough. It was rocks. I thought I was going to, fall and break something. I was tired. I was like, why am I not there yet? Why is everyone passing me? I'm coming into Ronces Valles, the very first stop, in tears. Like, I have to go home. I cannot do this. Cannot do this. But something really crazy happened. And I found a church in the town. And I was like, oh, yeah, I need some blessings. Someone bless, someone throws something

at me. Like, I don't know, a rosary. I don't know. Because I'm not Catholic. So I was like, just bless me. Some essence come on to me. And the priest in the church saw me in the very, very back and like asked me to come to the front and ask me like what my nationality was. And he was like, okay, great. The service starts. He starts bringing all these people who are saying next to me up to the front. And I'm like, oh, oh no, I think he might call in me too. He does. And he's like, and from the United States, our friend Christine. And I was like, oh, no, because again, I'm not Catholic. I don't know any of the rules.

I, like, deeply bowed to him. And he was like, what are you doing? I was like, I just don't want to offend anyone. And people are, you know, smiling at me. And there's like this camaraderie. And I'm looking at this priest and I'm just like, why did you choose me? And it was so hilarious and so quirky. And it just made me say, I wonder what.

could happen tomorrow, right? Like, I wonder what would happen if I discontinued. And that is how it really changed my life, right? Like, all of a sudden, I had shifted from being extremely achievement-oriented, very much high achiever, very much, let's tick all the boxes, let's get all the stuff, not to enjoy it, but just to say, I have it, look at all the things that I have. And to this person that was curious, Even when it was sucky. I'm curious as to what could happen next. I'm curious as to how life may unfold if it could get better or if I could have a funny story to tell someone one day. And that's how it kind of moved me and shifted me and changed me.

And then throughout the Camino really relying on one community. And that's something I hadn't done before. I was very much like an individual, I'll get it done. I don't trust anyone. I don't depend on anyone, but having community and allowing community to embrace you, to surrender into that, to trust, to also provide support to other people. You start understanding yourself at a deeper level. And it's like you allow yourself to be who you are.

I don't know if that sounds strange because I feel like, especially me being American, and there's very much a certain costume that we need to put on. Like, you, I went to law school and I do this and I do startups and I do this and take me seriously or I take myself seriously or these are my goals and I want to do this because that's what's expected of me. And it's very interesting as to the person that's revealed to you as you, one, are taken out of that entire, you know, scenario. But when you're alone with your thoughts, when you're put in positions in which you are stressed, and you have to actually cope with that stress, you know, you actually have to deal with you have to sit with the feelings.

When the thoughts bubble up, the things that you have compartmentalize, it's amazing what happens. Yeah, I love all of that, especially what you said about, like, I wonder what could happen tomorrow and just being open for that adventure. sure. And I agree with what you said about, you know, in the U.S., it's like the culture is quite individualistic and, you know, achievement. A very Enneagram three-time society, which I mean, yeah, there's often a facade of like, look at all of these great, shiny things. But then what's underneath that? And sometimes it can take an experience, like, walking that much on your own to, like, actually get a deeper reflection of what you actually want. Yeah, after I finished the Camino, I was like, I can do anything in the world. But instead of it being like super American, like, I'm going to take over the world, like, you know, maniacal laughter. It was just like, I can do what I want with my life. That was the feeling. Like, I can do it. And it may be tough. It may be uncomfortable, quote unquote, foreign. But I can do it. Like, I could, I can do it. If I just did this, I could definitely do it. And so I travel.

a little bit around Europe, which was not the best because I think by, I don't know, I think my body still had a lot of adrenaline. And as I finished up my little bit of a romp around Europe after the Camino, my body was like, yeah, we're tired. Like, this is, this is tiring. And you have tendinitis. And you didn't know because we were trying to pump you up. And so by the time I came home, which was probably maybe two weeks after the Camino, two and a half weeks after the Camino, I was like limping to, like limping off the plane. People were like, are you okay? Do you need like a wheelchair?

And I was like, probably, but I'm going to keep on limping. And I'm going to collapse when I get to my house. And that's what happened. And I actually had to nurse severe tendonitis in my feet for several months, which was not fun. But after that, after the Camino, I knew that I wanted to live in Spain. And I was like, I have a law degree and I do business. And I want to come on a, you know, highly skilled visa. which you can, but you need to get sponsored.

And then, you know, the Spanish salary is not the same as American salary. So I found myself spinning my wheels for a couple of years until I decided to really bet on myself. And I said, look, if I go to Spain and I decide to teach English or do a program that's called Auxiliary de Conversation, I know that if I'm boots on the ground, I can figure this out for myself. I know I can do it. And also at the time, you know, I'd already had this amazing experience in Spain, but I was still working in a very kind of like toxic grind of entrepreneurship in Atlanta. And I was just burnt out, even though I didn't have the language for it at the time. I just thought that I was being weak. I was just like, come on, get together. You know, because that's what law school does for you. It's like, what are you talking about? There's no sleep. It's no, we don't feel pain. Keep coming. Yeah. Right. It's very horrible. Now that I think of it, I'm like, oh, that is the worst. You know, chugging lots of Red Bull and five-hour energies and just bad foods and things.

You're just like, you needed a smoothie and a nap. That's what you needed. So I was at this point where I knew that physically and emotionally I didn't feel good. I didn't have the language of anxiety, depression, burnout. I just knew that I was tired and I needed a break. And I decided to go to Spain with the program and to say, look, I'm going to go and I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to figure out how I can stay doing what I want to do. And that's what I did in 2017.

I came to Spain and I was placed in La Rioja, which was amazing because the Camino San Diego goes through La Rioja and actually goes through La Jornia, which is the capital of La Rioja, which is where I was placed. And so it was very much like a homecoming in a way and lovely. It was a lovely, lovely, lovely experience. It was a little bit crazy, though, I have to be honest, because, you know, when you think of like, oh, I'm going to teach English. I'm not really teaching English. I'm like an assistant to the English teacher. And they say, yeah, you're going to be in primary school.

And I'm like, okay, yeah, kids, sure. And then you walk into an elementary school. and I haven't, I hadn't been around children. Like at that time, none of my friends had had kids. So it was this interesting, I don't know, like strange time where I walk into the school. Everyone is like three, like three feet tall. And I'm like, oh, primary school, right? Like, oh, this is what this is.

And also, you know, I'm placed in in, in, in, in, in, in, And I get two schools. One is in a Pueblo called Aberite. And so when I walked in, they were like, who is this black woman? What is? And they're like, you speak perfect English? How? Like, what? What is this? And so that was hilarious. But they were also quite lovely and interesting. And then I was also placed at another school inside the city of LaGronio. And when I would tell people, oh, yeah, I teach at this school, or I'm going to teach it this. school, people would say, oh, that's the immigrant school. Oh, the immigrant school. And I didn't know what that meant. I was like, what does that mean? And why is that bad? And basically, it's the black and brown

school. That's what it is. It is the school where you have first, second, maybe third generations of, I mean, Moroccans, people from Malif, people from Pakistan, people from even Romania. It was just, you know, the United Nations, which I thought was lovely. But again, I had the reaction of they were like, what is this black woman doing teaching? She's a teacher? What? Because we had never had a person of color of any color as their teacher at all and maybe never will. And they were like, wait, you're American, you speak English, you were a lawyer and you're here teaching us English.

Like mind blown. And that was really special for me. me because, you know, I came to Spain. I was like, okay, I'm going to do this so I can figure it out and do what I want to do. But really understanding the impact of representation and being fully present, you know, some of these kids, they're striving to fit in, you know, so badly. Spain is homogenous. Like, that's what it is. So they're trying to fit in. And as they're trying to fit in, they're discounting all of their beauty and richness of heritage and also skills. I was like, you speak three languages and you're learning English. I'm like, you have the tools to do

whatever you want to do. And I don't know if people had really posed it like that to them. Well, it sounds like you were a great role model for them. And I'm just thinking about when you said you saw the ambassador in Africa and we're like, whoa, this woman is like so powerful. And it sounded like that was quite like a quite a, you know, unforgettable experience for you. And it sounds like you were probably doing that for these kids as well. You know, I hadn't thought of it like that. I hadn't actually connected those dots. So thank you. Because I think it's true. It was a, it was a lovely experience. I was there for nine months. And then I said, I love Larioha. If people have not visited Larioha, I think it's a lovely vacation. Really beautiful. There's so much to see, right? There is vineyards.

There are different types of bodegas that you can go wine tasting. There are, the gastronomy is really beautiful and interesting, lots of amazing mushrooms. Just beautiful. It's a beautiful part of Spain and it's the smallest community of that. But also, because it's the smallest community of that, you know, it's, it wasn't the right fit for me for what I wanted. And so I then decided after that year to then move to Barcelona. When you moved to Barcelona, were you still teaching English? because now you're a business strategist who is helping other, I think, black women start businesses abroad.

So I had my consultancy before I went to Spain. It was mostly a consultancy working with solopreneurs and microbusiness in the holistic wellness space. I did some tech startup because I met this guy at yoga class. So it was that. It was like that thing too. But when I left Barcelona, when I left La Rioja to go to Barcelona, I hadn't kind of revitalized my business. What was interesting was that while I was in La Rioja, I had met another Auxedoer de Conversation who had a remote job in the States, and they were, you know, always having some kind of drama. And we would talk about it while we were working out at the gym. And I'd be like, oh, you should do this. You should do that. You should do this. And so that kind of connection and friendship led to me becoming a freelance writer

for the company in writing some business articles, which then kind of evolved into me actually having a full-time job with them. And so then I moved to Barcelona. I was a freelance writer, and then worked for them as a full-time employee for about a year. And so I got to go to Barcelona with that. And that was obviously a blessing to get to be able to fall into and do something that's actually in my wheelhouse. But also, it was just the nudge that I needed, right? Getting back into my wheelhouse, but also, and getting to test all the things that I had always wanted to, right?

So I was living in Barcelona for, I think it was like a year or so. And I had the opportunity to become a digital nomad and go traveling. And I was like, oh, I have a remote job. I could do that. And my mom was in Thailand at the time. yeah, come visit me. She's like, why not? You have a remote job. I was like, because I have things. I don't know. And so I booked it. I booked it to Thailand and went country hopping with my mom. We were in Thailand. We went to Malaysia and Kuala Lumpur. We were in Indonesia.

Where else did we go? We went to Singapore. We were just all around. But that experience taught me that I'm not a digital nomad. I don't like it, actually. I don't like it. I think I'm too much of a home body and a little bit crazy. Like the thought of having to pack up all of my things and then the fear of leaving something behind is too stressful. Especially when it comes to work stuff.

I'm like, no, I can't do this. And then constantly moving is stressful. And we just kept on boppe. Maybe if we would have stayed, especially like we went to Bali, definitely should stay there for like a month. But, you know, it's just for me, it's just not, it's not what it's, it's not for me, I'll say. I know that a lot of people love it. But I was like, no, I am, I'm definitely an expat, immigrant who likes to travel. So your mom's the nomad.

It sounds like. I think so. I think so. She is, she will get up and go in a heart. heartbeat. Actually, so we did that, right? That was October of 2019, up until December of 2019. We ended up going to Latin America, too. So we went to Panama, we went to Colombia. Then I come back to Barcelona in January. She comes to Spain in January for a cooking class in Mallorca in 2020. And then at the, and she was there for January, February. At the end of February 2020,

she comes up to Barcelona to help me move into a new apartment and gets stuck with me during the pandemic for like nine months. I would love if my mom got stuck with me here in England. You know, everyone was like, how is that? How is that? One, because it was a one-bedroom apartment. And my mom just took over my room. And I was like, okay, that's fine. But actually, the layout of the apartment was actually, it was perfect for being quarantined.

And that's such a strange thing to say. but it was. And my mom is a plant-based chef, which is amazing. I want to be best friends with your mom. She's... Where is she now? Right now, she's in Atlanta, but she'll be going back to Mexico soon. Yeah, she's really cool.

She's like, I mean, but this is also something that everyone has told me since I was like a child. They're like, we love your mom. And I'm like, I know, everyone does. But yeah, we get locked down in the apartment. And how the apartment is set up is, it's quite long. And so in the back of the apartment is like the kitchen. So that's where she was all the time, like making vegan feta cheese and different types of facacha and burgers and just all in like vegan lamb and stuff. And I was like, what?

She was like, yeah, I tried. Like, try it. And I'm like, sure. She got me fed very, very well. And I appreciate that. And I'm in the front of the apartment and my office, you know, re-launching my business and launching my podcast. And it was crazy, but it was, it worked for us. And it was magical.

And when I think about it, you know, I don't think that most of us have that kind of time, quality time with our parents as an adult. That's amazing. And yes, we're never getting that time back. So that sounds like nine very special months. But I agree with you about as far as like expat versus nomad life, I'm definitely more of an expat to like. Like, I can nomad it for a month or so. And usually I would rather just, like, stay in one or two spots during that time. But, yeah, long term, I like having a beast.

Right. Like, going to your own bed. I tell people all the time they make fun of me. I like, like, I like drinking out of my own teacups. Like, I like that type of, like, comfort. I like to travel. But, like, I don't want to just, especially when you do, like, Airbnb. Like, at some point, I'm just like, I don't want to be rolling around another

people's sheets. I want my own stuff. I want to go jogging on my beach. Exactly. I think one of my biggest takeaways from this conversation is just take a small step, right? Like when you said, you decided you were going to teach English and you knew that wasn't going to be forever, but like how can I get my foot in the door? So I really like that perspective that you shared. Do you, have you always been that way? Or did that come from the Camino? No, that was definitely the Camino. I was definitely the person who was like, I should be perfect every single time because I thought about it and because I should.

I don't want to ever be seen with egg on my face. I don't want to ever be seen starting. I don't want to ever be seen strange and awkward. And the Camino wipes that away because it's like, look, I can still have the experiences that I want. I can even still achieve the things that I want even when I'm not perfect. And, you know, but I think what the community really taught, you know, with Paso a Paso is that I'm more curious about who I'm becoming and what options are revealed to me as I take a step forward. So it let, it becomes less about achieving the golden ring, even though, you know, I still love achieving the golden rings.

You know, it's still, it's still nice. But, you know, you start getting curious about, well, if I get started, I want to. wonder what will happen. I wonder if I'll like it. I wonder if I won't like it. I wonder if there's a better way. I wonder if I'll meet someone. And that's the, that's the best thing, truly. And I think that's a, that's a super Camino, like, lesson. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. Before I let you go, do you have any logistical advice for anyone who wants to walk the Camino de Santiago and have an experience like this themselves? Yes. You should definitely train because I didn't. But I did it when I was 27, so I was a little bit more spry. So definitely train, I would say. There's so many different

Caminos. So really you have to choose how many people you want to interact with on your Camino. That'll decide on which community you take and what season of the year you go on. I think if you're afraid to maybe go alone, which is no worries, you know, that's a valid concern. I would say definitely do a Camino in the summertime. And then the Camino Frances is the most popular one. So you will never be alone on the Camino. You just will encounter stranger after stranger and it's they become friends. I would say that. I would say also just be mindful of your pack. You know, I think the rule is your pack should only be 10% of your body weight. And I think that it might even be a little heavy because you will be carrying that for 800 kilometers, maybe if you use a do the come on

Camino de Santiago, or excuse me, Camino Frances. How do you find a group and how do you figure out where to stay? There's guidebooks. And now that there's apps that people utilize to find the alberges. But usually with the Camino, there's just an arrow. It's a yellow arrow. That's like the trail marker that you just follow everywhere. It's either a yellow arrow or like a seashell that you follow.

So for the alberges, there are guidebooks in no. now there's apps. Now one of the, I think, drawbacks to doing the Camino Frances, probably in the summertime, is that now it's become wildly popular. There are lots of Facebook groups, I would say definitely join them. But because it's become wildly popular, and I guess also because of COVID, people are booking all their accommodation in advance. So sometimes people are coming into cities or towns, and everything is booked up.

I don't know if that's really the Camino spirit. personally, even though everyone says, you know, your own Camino is your own Camino, which is true. And there's not a lot to be judged upon that. But yeah, I don't know about booking all of your accommodation in advance. Be a true pilgrim. Yeah, because I mean, so many things happen. Like you may be walking through a beautiful village and be like, oh, I'm stopping here. I just want to be here. Yeah, I could walk for three more hours, but I want to, I want to be here. I want to have this experience. Or maybe your foot hurts or you don't want to. Like, you don't want to walk anymore. Right, right. And it's, it's been so powerful for me. I mean, how it's, it's

incredible. You start from the French Pyrenees and then I ended up on the Atlantic coast of Spain. I walked on a beach. That was the last stage. I ended up walking on the sand. And it's just mind blowing at what is possible when we allow that to happen. Well, Christine, I loved talking to you and learning more about you. Where can other people find out more about? you and where can we listen to your podcast? Tell us about it again. Yeah, so my podcast is called Flourish in the Foreign. It's all about celebrating, elevating, and affirming the voices and stories of black women across the diaspora who are living and thriving abroad while exploring, living abroad as a pathway to wellness. You can also check it out via my website,

flourish and the foreign.com. That's where I have the show notes, which has you know, all of the bio and pictures of all the guests and all their contact information, but also resources about people or for people who are interested in moving abroad or building a business abroad. YouTube is fun, or I'm trying to make it from, so I like to do live discussions. And I actually have a live discussion this weekend, and we're going to be talking about dating abroad, which is, I mean, that discussion is always hilarious across all expat forums, right? like especially like women-centric expat forums, like talking about dating abroad is hilarious. So we'll be doing that.

Okay. And if we miss it, we'll find it on YouTube. Yes. Well, this has been wonderful. Christine, thank you so much. Thank you. I really, really appreciate you taking the time. Just thank you so much.

And I'm so enjoying this. And I hope we can stay in contact after this. Oh, I'm coming to visit you in Valencia. Yay! You worry. Yay, please. do. Okay, I will. I love Christine's What Could Happen Next Outlook on Life. And I especially loved what she said about taking the next step. We paralyze ourselves when we think about all the options

and everything we could be doing. What is the one next step you need to make to move forward and whatever you want to do? And if you're ready to make big moves, but you feel like you are stuck spinning your wheels, visit sarahmicatel.com to see how I might be able to help you. That's all for now. and have a beautiful week wherever you are. Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free conversation sheet sheet with simple formulas that you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you're in a meeting or just talking with friends. Download it at sarahmicatel.com slash blank no more.