Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - What’s an Expat? My Travel Story

Episode Date: December 7, 2018

What is an expat, anyway? On this episode, we define what an expat is and how to become one. I hand over the mic to  Gemma Thompson, who interviews me on my travel journey to moving abroad. This interview first aired on Gemma’s podcast: A Girl’s Guide to Travelling Alone.    I featured Gemma on the Postcard Academy’s Solo Travel episode. She is absolutely lovely and I had a great time chatting with her again here.    If you are interested in living abroad, you can find resources on  postcardacademy.co including:  Live Abroad: Where and How to Live a Better Life at Half the Price of the U.S.   How to House-Sit Around the World and Live Rent-Free While Traveling   Working Abroad: 6 Countries that are Great for Freelancers   Workaway: 9 Tips to Live Like a Local and Travel the World Through Work Exchanges     I’m your host, Sarah Mikutel. Ready to travel? Sign up for my newsletter and get your free guide to cheap airfare.    Thank you so much for listening to this show. I know you’re busy and have many listening options, so it means a lot to me that you’re here. You are the best.   This podcast is brought to you by Audible. Not a member yet? Postcard Academy listeners can get a FREE audiobook and a 30-day free trial if you sign up via audibletrial.com/postcard   This podcast is also brought to you by World Nomads. Need simple and flexible travel insurance? Get a cost estimate from World Nomads using their handy calculator at postcardacademy.co/insuranceDo you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

Welcome to the Postcard Academy, your weekly travel and culture podcast. Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing wherever you are in the world. I really appreciate you being here. I was in London for a hot minute, primarily to go to a Christmas party with some friends. But now I am back in Berlin for another friend reunion. And I arrived just in time on the night of December 5th, which I learned is the night before St. Nicholas arrived. and if you polish your boots and leave them out for him, he will actually leave you some little treats. So I was very excited to learn about this and to be able to sneak some little gifts into my

friend's shoes for her to discover in the morning. But St. Nicholas is not actually Santa Claus. That is a different guy who comes to deliver presents on Christmas Eve. But they look the same. And so I'm really excited to be back in Germany at this time of year. If you listen to the Berlin travel guide episode, you heard Chloe tell us all about how lovely the Christmas markets are here. So I'm going out to explore those, and I will share some photos on postcardacademy.com. As for today's episode, I'm switching up the format a little bit. On the solo travel episode, I interviewed Gemma Thompson from A Girl's Guide to Traveling Alone, and then she interviewed me on her podcast and is kindly letting me share it here. So today, you are going to

to hear Gemma interviewing me about my travel story and what it means to be an expat today. And you can hear more of Gemma's interviews on her podcast, A Girl's Guide to Traveling Alone. This episode is sponsored by World Nomads. Are you traveling abroad soon? Travel insurance is a very smart idea. You can get a free cost estimate using the handy World Nomads Insurance calculator by visiting postcardacademy.co slash insurance. And while you're planning for that trip, don't forget your reading and listening material. If you sign up to Audible using the link Audibletrial.com slash postcard, you can get a free audiobook and a 30-day free trial.

Now into my conversation with Gemma. So I'm thrilled to speak to you. Hi, Sarah. Hi, Gemma. It is so nice to be here and talking to you. Yeah, yeah. Me and Sarah, podcast buddies now, I'd see. Yes, you came on my podcast.

and that was so much fun, so I'm really glad to be talking to you again. Yeah, thank you. And so for anyone listening, could you just explain to me what exactly is an expat? Good question. So I think that in the past, when people thought of expat, they thought of someone being transferred to a new country by their company. So a big corporation probably offered a really good package deal to go. and today I think expats are more diverse. And I think I would say that in expat today is somebody who voluntarily moves abroad, maybe forever, maybe for a year.

They don't really know exactly. But you don't have to just go with a big company. People become expats for many different reasons. So some people do go with global companies and they probably have the easiest time financially anyway, because they'll get an overseas assignment. They have relocation costs taken care of for them, likely help with housing. Then you have the families of these employees, so they become expats themselves. But people also go to other countries to retire or to do freelance work. Then you have people like me who moved abroad with no job, but just figured it out when I got there.

Yeah, I guess maybe, right, yeah, like you said, so maybe rather than in the past an expat would be maybe, yeah, like someone who's been moved with their job for a specific reason. Now it could be possibly more like a lifestyle choice, do you think? I think definitely. And I looked at a website once where a company, you know, they were talking about different global employees, but it was almost like apologetic. Like, well, you know, it's only temporary and we'll give you this and that. And I'm like, this sounds like the greatest opportunity ever.

Like, why wouldn't people jump at this? But yeah, I think a lifestyle choice, most of my friends in London, where I live now, we're all expats. And some people come for work, find jobs here because as far as Europe goes, London is a great place to work, at least for now. But I came to London just because it's my favorite city in the world. I studied abroad here for a semester back when I was in university and I always wanted to move back here and so I made it happen. Oh, that's so nice to hear actually because I'm not a born and bred Londoner, but I do live in London and when someone says that this is the best city in the world,

you say, yeah, it's a pretty cool city. It is a pretty cool city. And can you tell me about your first expat experience when you're, first moved to a different country? Yes. So I don't know if you can count this as an expat experience, but this started me on my journey. So when I was 18, I actually spent the summer in England's Lake District. Oh, nice. I was a waitress slash chambermaid at a hotel, and I lived in an old stable with my friend and my boyfriend at the time. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm I'm going to have to stop. You lived in a stable. Yeah.

I mean, it was a converted stable, but pretty much a stable. We had like, yeah, the very bare bones bedrooms. And then the bathroom, it was just a tub with taps. And at first I was like, how does this even work? How are we supposed to, you know, wash our hair? Like one tap cold, one tap hot. And that is something that still baffles me about England, why there's not just one. But anyway, that really is a character-building experience.

And which part of the Lake District were you in just out of interest? Windermere. Oh, beautiful. Oh, wow, that's so lovely. And how long were you there? All summer long. So, and I have to say, so my friend and my boyfriend worked in. in the pub. So all they did was pour beer a few hours a day. They didn't even have to make any

like cocktails or anything. Oh no, not in the lake district. You just need beer for hungry walkers, I guess. That's what you need to be doing. Yeah. Yeah. So I got a job at a cafe like on a different side of town but then I wanted to like stay with them. So I ended up getting a job. One of the only jobs left was the waitress chambermaid job. So we got up so early and had to make the breakfast and then like break it down and then you know clean all of the rooms and it was the most physically demanding job I've ever had in my life but despite all that like I felt madly in love with England and I knew that I wanted to live abroad um from that point on so I went back to the states to finish my school yeah but um I knew that I always wanted to live abroad

since that time oh that's such a nice um experience for an 18th year old. I mean, I wish I'd done something like that when I was 18. I don't think it would have entered my head. But that's such a great kind of, um, not just experience, but like kind of, you know, getting out into the world and picking up new life skills. I mean, can you still do like a hospital corner when you're doing your bed sheets at home? Probably not. I probably was rubbish then. Oh, no. Oh, good for you though, kind of getting out there into the world. And what a beautiful place to start your adventures as well. It was magical. I mean, and I can't believe this, but I don't think I've been back there since. I should make a trip up because I've, since then, I've gone to, you know, Scotland and, you know, I've been up in northern England, but yeah, I should go back and see, because I remember it being the most beautiful place on Earth. Yeah. And so in my mind, it still is. So I should go back. Oh, yeah. It's special, isn't it? I mean, as kids, we used to go to the Lake District quite a lot because I grew up on the opposite side of England. So I grew up on the

northeast and we used to drive across to the northwest for holidays really so places like windermere and glen ridding and ambleside and it's such a beautiful peaceful kind of part of the world isn't it and hikers are such friendly people and you never get a grumpy hiker so and can tell me so that was your first experience and um with your next experiences of moving around country Is this something which inspired you to set up the Postcard Academy? It is, yeah. So I guess I'll tell you how I ended up in London. I didn't think, so I'm from the United States and it's quite difficult for an American to work abroad.

Just visa-wise, it's really difficult unless you go with another, with a company. But then at some point I figured out that I was eligible for Italian citizenship through my ancestry. And so I just did a lot of research online. I met someone who was translating documents for me for this project because I was going to apply while I was still in the U.S. And she said, actually, you know, I, she was in the same boat. And she said, I went to Italy and just applied there. And I had my passport in like two months. And so you should just move to this town called Reggio Amelia and try it out.

And so, and I didn't even really know, I didn't know this person. She was just somebody I met online. I took her advice and I flew to Reggio Amelia and she was right. I had my passport in like two months. They were a super efficient community. And so I guess that's where I would say my first like real expat experience began because I was properly living there for like, and I didn't know how long I would be staying. I ended up staying for like about a year

just because I loved it so much and I made so many great friends and you know I wanted to improve my Italian language skills Oh wonderful Can you tell me exactly what can you remind me What part of Italy was it again sorry So it's Reju Emilia and it's in the area called Amelia Romagna

And I guess the more popular towns over there Are Parma, Bologna Modena has become very popular now, I think, just because like this world famous restaurant is there now that's really hard to get into. But it was such a great experience. And then, but, you know, ultimately, I definitely wanted to be living in London. And that's where I could find like a proper job as an EU citizen. You know, my background's marketing and communications.

And so since I was not a native speaker of Italian, that was kind of a hard job to do in that country. So then I went to London. I'm going so sidetracked. I will get to how I started the podcast. But yeah, so I had, I ended up going to different recruitment agencies and finding work through that and worked for some really great companies. So I worked for Barclays. I worked for Apple for two years. And they were all good experiences.

And then at some point I ended up at a tech startup. And that was as crazy-paced as you might imagine. And as an American expat, I wanted to still make the most of my time in Europe and travel because I love traveling. But because I was working such crazy hours, I really just did not have any time at all to plan my trips. So I just wanted to get onto a plane and sit back and just listen to a podcast and have that tell me, okay, what do I need to see when I touch down and where can I? like what are the hidden gems and where can I eat? And I couldn't find that kind of podcast. And so I decided to create the Postcard Academy for that reason to help people out.

And for the people that I focused on, I really wanted to feature expats who are living in a new place, in a place because they wanted to be there. You know, they're not from there, but they just, something about it. Like, they just love living there. And they know the best places. because they really take advantage of their adopted city. And another thing like you, Gemma, and I know you've spoken about this before,

but I think it's often hard to find female travelers or female expats who are writing books and doing cool things. Or, like, in films, the women who travel, like they're going through some major crisis or they're just going through divorce. And they really wanted to feature women who, they just love to travel, they love exploring the world, and just to highlight them and so to inspire other people, men and women,

like this is something that any person can do. That's, yeah, that's such a good point. You know, we don't need to travel or move country just because we're going through some kind of heartbreak or life crisis. Yeah, you can just move because you want to try it out. That's such a good point. Yeah, yeah.

And how did you go about kind of finding your people that you wanted to interview? How did you source your expats? Hmm, well, listening to other podcasts is a good way. For a time, I was really into Instagram and seeing where people were traveling and getting inspired by that. I've since kind of like, I don't really like social media anymore. I just feel like I want to spend my time being outside or doing something cultural or even just working on my own podcast because I think it's somewhat. fun. But I did actually find some people that way who've actually become really good friends

and we've gone on to travel together and stuff like that. But also people who write books. So Katie Parlo was one of my first guests and she has some really fantastic cookbooks out on Rome. And she does a private tour, like the coolest tours you will ever do in Rome. And so she agreed to come on the podcast. And similarly for my Paris episode, I interviewed somebody who wrote a book that's pretty much all in like

the new Paris. That's actually the name of the book. Oh, cool. All of like how, just how dynamic Paris has come. Like her whole, you know, the theme of her book is that for quite a while, Paris sort of just was resting on its laurels and got a bit stuffy and didn't really try

because everyone goes to Paris. and so why bother you even trying because they're going to come anyway. But there's like this new creative class that is just creating really, you know, cool cocktail bars and great restaurants and, you know, different boutique shops. And so she wrote a book on that.

And so that was really fun to talk to her about that. And of course, get her insider tips. That's it. Yeah, it's good to get these little local gems, isn't it, as well? Yeah. I mean, I imagine Paris, and I've never lived in Paris but

when I've been so many times and I've always tried out my really poor French and I find it quite a daunting I don't know if intimidating is the right word but I find it quite a challenging country to practice my language skills I would call it daunting for sure I don't even speak French

I have to say that my comfort level has gone up like the more that I go to France. But yeah, Paris especially, can be so intimidating. Yeah. It can, yeah, because it's like that French aloofness,

which I know is a massive stereotype. But any time I've tried, they've kind of rolled their eyes and spoke back at me in English. And I'm like, I'm trying. But then, you know, if you have one successful language exchange in Paris, you know you're doing something right.

Yeah. And I think even if you're, if you're embarrassed, you know, still try to at least say hello. Yeah. Thank you. Because that's actually really important to them. And they will not look at you unless you acknowledge them.

When you walk into a store, you have to say hello. And then they will, you know, interact. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, speaking of, you know, challenges moving to a different country, what would you say are the biggest challenges when you move to a new country? I would say, and, you know, it can be similar to solo. You know, I think probably not knowing anyone is the biggest challenge.

It's quite scary for almost anyone. Yeah. But if you're moving abroad on your own as opposed to a couple, it's actually a lot easier to meet people because, you know, just like solo travel, you don't have that crutch. Yeah. You're more open, I guess, to speaking to people. Yeah, definitely.

Rather than just speaking to each other. Yeah. I get that. But I think, so that's the fear, but I think it's actually easier to make new friends in a new country than a new city in your own country because expats seek each other out. And today it's very easy to find events online where you can meet other people. So that could be an expat group on Facebook or something on meetup.com. I haven't done that in a while. but when I first got here, I did meet-up events all the time.

And there's something for everyone. So, you know, I'm a vegetarian, so I would go to some vegetarian events. And there's lots of language learning events. And so I've met some really good friends doing that type of stuff. I guess that's a great way to kind of meet like-minded people as well. You know, people who are into the same thing, people who maybe come from a similar background as you. You know, they're an expert as well. You're all kind of in the same boat.

People who you've already got a lot in common with. I guess that's a good way of meeting those people. Yeah, and feedup.com is not just for expats. It's for like a bunch of different people. And usually people go on their own. And so you don't have to worry about like walking into this group where everybody is like best friends already. Yeah. And I met one of my close friends on a walking tour and London.

So there's just so many. different opportunities and it's such a good way to grow personally just because I used to be very shy but because I've moved to several places on my own I just have been forced to ask strangers for help or to walk into an event alone. You do make new friends and it definitely stretches you out of your comfort zone and increases your confidence so I was so I was going to ask you that I mean how is your self-confidence change from pre-expat to being an expat? Would you say it's a had a big positive effect. Massive. Yeah, massive.

Yeah. Yeah, because everything's a challenge. Everything is brand new when you first walk into a place. And, you know, finding a job can be a challenge, especially if you arrive without one, as I did. So just figuring out all of that type of stuff. And then culture shock can be a big thing as well. I on my podcast interviewed a really lovely woman named Debbie So she is in Romania And we were just laughing the whole time during this episode

Because she is this sweetheart English rose Telling me about how blunt the Romanians are Oh, that's not a good match with a polite English woman So she's just telling me like She'll be outwalking with her colleagues And they're like one woman We'll start to tell the story and the others will be like, oh my God, that story's so boring.

Can you just stop talking? And she's like, I would die if you said that to me. And they're like, we know we would never say that to you. It's straight into the point, I guess, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And she was telling me that she was out at dinner with her partner, but this was like when they were first getting together. And he was Romanian and was just saying, like, the waiter was standing right there.

And he was like, so how much would chit this guy? You know. Oh, no. And she's like, what? he's standing right there. Like, we can't have this. And he was like, what? He's here.

How much should we tip him? And so, yeah, so, you know, cultures can be very different in Europe. But that's the fascinating thing about it. I love it. That is the real beauty, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, that's one of the most charming things, isn't it, about travel? Each country's little nuances.

Yeah, I mean, that's a massive reason why I love living. And it happens in mind, I guess, doesn't it? it to people just behave different ways and people do different things in different countries and we all need to kind of just, you know, get along and accept each other for what we are and our differences are and what makes us interesting, I think, as well. Yeah, I agree. And I love the politeness of Hibreda. I love it. Do you feel like, I mean, this is such a random question that I'm going to shove in here, but would you say that a real kind of mark of a successful expat is if you get mistaken for a local

by tourists? What do you think? By tourists? Yeah. I think the real mark would be if you were mistaken for a local by a local. Right. Because tourists, you know, could ask you for directions all the time. But, you know, I would have to say that one of my highest compliments that I guess could be, you know, for an expat was people have said to me, you know, I can't remember like of a specific conversation, but people have said to be more than once,

oh, I forgot that you were American. And I'm like, where did you think I was from? They're like, I never really thought about it. You just seem like you're from everywhere. And I was like, that sounds great, you know? And part of me does feel like I'm from everywhere. Yeah, that's a great compliment. Yeah, citizen of the world, I guess.

Yeah, yeah. And then so we've chatted about some of the kind of tough times. or the challenges of moving to a new country. But what are the best things about moving to a new country? What are some of your, can you share some of your best experiences you've had as an expat? I would say 100% it's the people that you meet. And, you know, when I was living in New York still, a German girl subletted from my apartment when my flatmate went to Mongolia.

And this was 10 years ago. And I guess I'm talking a little bit about her expat experience, but then it blends into mine. So since then, you know, we've stayed friends. We've traveled to so many different countries together. She was living in London for a while when I was here. And so at the beginning of December, like I'll go to December. At the beginning of December, I'll be going to Berlin to visit her with some of our other expat friends. Oh, that's nice.

to see some of the Christmas markets. And so I think just it's definitely meeting cool people, traveling with them. I've seen so much of Europe since I've been over here and have been exposed to many different things that, you know, in the States, when you think about traveling in Europe, you think France, Italy, England, maybe Germany, all cool places. but nobody ever really talks about the Balkans or like I've since been to like everywhere in former Yugoslavia just as I've met really cool people while I've been here who and then you talk to them about where I should go or you learn where they're from and so definitely the people and then just having the ability to travel all over Europe since I've been here. Yeah yeah you're right I mean the countries which are not the most

obvious ones on the hit list like you mentioned. I guess those are the ones that can bring up the lovely surprises, really. I mean, Albania is quite high up on my list. I don't know anyone who's been to Albania, but just from things I've seen online or I know a couple of Albanian people, but that's really high up there. And I just think, why do I not know anyone who's been there?

But it's such a good idea to go to the less obvious place. isn't it? Yeah, and you have less tourists. It's easier to meet the locals because they're so curious and interested in why somebody is visiting their town. It's usually a lot cheaper. Albania is super cheap. I have some friends who just finished up a workaway. If you want to travel but are looking for a way to save some money or you just want to have a more cultural experience, you can do a work away. And in exchange for 25 hours a week, you will get free room and board at a place. But the idea is you're not just doing like labor and getting some food. It's also, you're supposed to like get to know your host and they'll introduce you more

into the culture of wherever you are. So my friends just did a work away in Albania at a hostel over there and yeah they had a great time and said the food is fantastic yeah that's a great idea actually in a great way to kind of make travel a bit more accessible as well you know so you don't have to fund 100% of your travels but you're also getting a more immersive experience as well yeah exactly yeah and um on your podcast you've interviewed um a whole array of um amazing people who've kind of took the plunge and moved to a new country. Can you think of any stories which stand out for you? Sorry, I've put you in the spot, haven't I?

It's okay. Gosh, I really think that they're all interesting. Yeah. I mean, I guess the ones that I really like are the ones when, I would say it's women moving to new countries on their own with no real job or, you know, guaranteed future. Because, you know, I have interviewed some people who've gone like with partners and different things like that. And that's great. But I guess I like

when people just sort of bootstrap it. And so like Katie Parla, the one I mentioned who wrote the several cookbooks on Rome, did that. Debbie, the one from Romania, moved to Bucharest to just because she thought it sounded like a cool opportunity. And she didn't even, had never even heard of it. I mean, this was, you know, quite a few years ago. But when she, like, saw the posting for the job, she was like, do they mean Budapest? But she ended up in Bucharest. And I think I would say, like, another cool thing about being an expat is if you go to a place that's on a smaller scale, like Slovenia or Romania, that can do such fantastic things for your career. because, you know, Debbie became a journalist and got to do a lot more writing than if she had stayed in London.

And just because you're kind of like a bigger fish in a smaller pond and people need English language skills and things like that. So just I would encourage people to like consider like, I guess the smaller more off the beaten path cities and countries if you want to try something new. Yeah, that's so great. I love that thing about just, you know, upping sticks without real plan. That's kind of what you did, isn't it, really, when you just turned up and didn't really have a job or anything. I know where I wanted to be. I just had to figure out the plan to be able to stay. Yeah, and you work it out, doing you, like anything, you work it out. I think sometimes we can overplan. I mean, I want to talk about my planning, but, you know, sometimes the nicest experiences are completely ad hoc. and you can't plan them. So, yeah, it's, it's, so long as you can get yourself there and, you know, find something to do to keep you going, and then, and then you can just kind of, you know, immerse yourself into the culture and work it out as you go along, I guess.

Yeah, I mean, I would say definitely keep an open mind. And I'm pretty easygoing, and I think that is a key trait as well. So just you have to go with an open mind, as I said, because when I first moved to London, I came in 2011 and I found my flat when I was still in Italy because I didn't have a ton of money. I didn't want to spend any time in hotels. So I just went to Sparroom.com and found a place in Lewisham. I had never heard of it, but I found this guy who didn't require me to wire money over the internet. I could just pay when I showed up. Oh, wow.

Yeah. For like two years, I was living in this tiny room, like literally a closet with a boiler over my head. And you know what? It was great. Yeah. My flatmates were awesome. Yeah. I ended up finding a job that was easily accessible by the DLR, which is like the train that goes from Lewersham to Tower Hill.

and was able to save up a ton of money because of the tiny place that I was living in and that enabled me to do tons of travel and so... Yeah, without too much planning, I guess, yeah. And I just wanted to bring this up as well at some point in our conversation. I remember when I was 22, 23

and I was living and working in Newcastle in the north-east of England and I was kind of desperate for a change of scenery really, and I applied for jobs around the world. Any job for a designer, I would apply for it. And it could be Edinburgh, London, Dubai, Italy, New York. I would apply for all of them. And I eventually ended up in London.

But after I started my job in London, I think it was maybe after about three months, my former colleague, well, my friend, Shelley, she forwarded me an email saying, I presume you don't want to follow this up. And it was an email from a design agency in Cape Town who were interested in meeting up with me. So, I mean, I was just getting settled,

so I didn't want to up sticks again. I wanted to give, you know, the London thing a try at least. But it's funny how life turns out and the opportunities that come by and the times that, you know, and how you can create your own opportunities as well. Yes, I agree 100%. So you ended up staying in London then? I did. I ended up staying.

I do sometimes think about that email. You know, and I still have never made it to Cape Town yet. So maybe I'll feel an affinity of it when I arrive. But I do think about it. I also had an invite to an interview in Dubai as well, which I'm sure would have been a whole different experience in itself. But, you know, you never know. Life may take me somewhere.

going forward. And with regards to being in a brand new country, what kind of experiences would you say are unique to an expert? Well, I think how you think about the world definitely changes when you are in a new country. A lot of us grow up thinking our country is the best. And if only other countries where more like us the world would be such a better place. Oh, yeah. Or you hear about how horrible a certain country is and you have negative thoughts about it. But then when you move abroad and become friends with people from these hated countries, and you realize that, you know, our own governments are not perfect and there are good people

in every country and that humans everywhere have the same desire for connection and wanting to give back. I mean, you really feel that when you are thrown into another culture and you realize your own country, you know, is not the best in your values might actually be more aligned to another place. Yeah, yeah, that's such a good, that's such a lovely point. I remember, I don't know if you've seen this, a Michael Moore documentary called Where to Invade Next and he was visiting different countries around the world who seemed to get it right and he was basically stealing

the things that they get right so for example in France it was the fact that children don't eat junk food and they won't eat it and they don't want it and in Norway it was how they deal with their prisoners how they've got open prison systems out there

And all of these success stories from different countries and just kind of stealing the way that they do things. Because it's like you said, you know, you think your country has got it right. But then you realize, oh my God, you know, we have this so wrong. And no country is perfect, is it? But it's interesting to see how they deal with different issues. Wouldn't it be great if we could just export the best like cultural experiences and like values? I think that would be wonderful. And I really think this world would be such a.

a more peaceful place if everyone had the opportunity to live abroad or at least to study abroad or to, yeah, even just to visit. And it said to me that that seems like such a far-fetched idea when we spent so much money on the military. But I feel like if we spend more on actual like diplomacy between average people, that this would be such a better world. Yeah. And that would lead to kind of more education, I guess,

and breaking down those barriers. Like you said, you know, you hear about a country, you wouldn't want to go there. You go there and you have the best time and the people are amazing. And it's, I mean, I totally agree with, you know, in an ideal world, if more people, if everybody could travel and spend some time in different countries, the world would be a much more peaceful place, really, wouldn't it?

Yeah, and just make friends with people who are from different religions or no religion at all or different races, you know. But the world's a big place and I wish everyone could see more of it. Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? I mean, I guess schemes like the one you mentioned, Work Away, schemes like that can make travel more accessible to people who maybe can't afford to just pay for their airline ticket and accommodation and their living expenses. So someone who needs to kind of be earning money and needs a...

kind of helpful platform to get there as well rather than doing all of the kind of homework and research finding, you know, how to find a job. A platform like that makes it a little easier. Yeah, well, work away, they don't pay you. It's just room and board. But it's still a great way to people, for people to travel and save some money and get probably a more culturally rich experience by doing that than just hitting all the major sites, I would think. Yeah. Yeah. But as for other things that experiences that are unique to expat, so I mentioned the mindset that was different between expat and tourists. You know, I think everything seems a little bit more serious when, you know, that you have to live there and have to figure out, like, how does the bus system work and all sorts of things like that. you know, I felt like I have a lot more empathy for immigrants and, you know, especially like

people who don't speak the language when they move to a country because that's how I was in Italy and, you know, it can be scary when you just feel stupid when you're trying to figure things out. I was like, when I, in the town I was in Italy, the immigrants were the only people who rode the bus besides the really old people and the really young people too young to drive. And so, and I can include myself in that immigrant population. And sometimes you can get taken advantage of when it comes to rent and things like that because you're kind of temporary and landlords don't care as much.

But, you know, but, but it's still like, for me, the benefits outweigh. any sort of negative. And as I mentioned, you discover different parts of yourself. I'm fairly introverted like you. I need a lot of alone time. I love spending time with my friends, but I definitely need my own space. And so for an American, I think I'm probably a little more on the reserve side.

However, when I'm in England, I definitely feel like the American coming out of me and I'm more bubbly and like, we can do it. Come on, guys. Yeah, the American positivity. I love that. I love that American kind of optimism. I do love it.

And the service and, you know, have a great day. You just, you know, people in England. If anyone, you know, starts to tell you their problems, you're like, all right, we can fix this. Yeah. And you immediately want to start fixing their problems. Yeah. I have to sort of like check yourself in that,

and their respect sometimes too. Oh, yeah. They don't want us to solve everything. Oh. But that's one of the, you know, that's one of the lovely things about the American, you know, I mean, talk about stereotypes, but, you know, in general, that's one of the lovely things I find about Americans that kind of can do attitude. And I would say reverse culture shock can also be women, like when you go back to your hometown and you haven't been there for a while, like, you can feel like an alien masquerading as a local. Like you look the same, but you feel so different. Oh, God. Yeah, definitely. In fact, um, you can feel like, you can feel like an alien masquerading as a local. Like, you look the same, but you feel so different. Oh, God. yeah definitely in fact um i mean not that there's an expat kind of situation but i was in south

america for six months and before i flew home from brazil i was a little bit nervous um about how i would fit back into a normal life and um um i definitely felt apprehensive about um you know have i changed do i want to do this and do i want to just go back to what i was doing before and I had all of these thoughts and worries and I think that's kind of why I moved away from my hometown as well because I went travelling and came back and nothing changes but everything changes.

You know, friends move on and do their own thing and you feel, I don't know about you, but I felt a bit like I was in the wrong place almost and I love going home but I just felt like desperate to explore more really and like this is not it you know there's more to life yeah

yeah and uh and that's another thing where um not another huge thing the obvious thing is you're not near your friends and family and you know I definitely feel more European I always have even when I was a little kid

I love living over here and being in the UK However, you know, I do miss my friends and my family who are back home. My sister had a baby this year. And so I'm an aunt and my nephews, I guess I'm about 11 months old now. And I, when I was home this year, just I loved spending time with them. And I actually had a dream last night that he mistook me for someone on TV. Because he had like, because I worry sometimes, like, is he going to confuse me for someone

because he sees me on FaceTime a lot like is he just going to confuse me for a video and not his aunt but um but yeah so I'm trying to these days I actually try to spend more time in the state so I can see them more yeah but you know you're going to be the cool aunt

who they want to come and see when they're a bit older I can't wait to take him around yeah and just finally what advice would you give to somebody who is kind of flirting with the idea of moving away to a new country, what kind of advice would you give to them just to get started and to put their, maybe their nerves at rest?

Well, if they are actually making the move, I would say, you know, when your plane touches down, you are probably going to think, like, what am I doing? I don't even know anyone here. I made a mistake. Turn this plane around. And just know that that's completely normal to feel that way, to like completely panic. But after the first few days, I think you would probably, you know, start to really feel at home.

I would say one of the first things that you should do is go on a walking tour to get your bearings and learn about more about your city. Go out and meet people. As I said, I think language exchanges are a great thing. Meetup.com offers a lot of different great events. Of course, Facebook has a bunch of events now. And let's see, if you don't have a place to live before you go, I would suggest joining an expat group for wherever you're going. Ask them about housing.

What are the best resources? Maybe somebody has a room. And then maybe book a hostel or an Airbnb for your first few days. So when you go, you can actually check out apartments when you get there. That's a good idea actually rather than just plunge headlong and book something that turns out to not look like it did on the pictures. Yeah and maybe give yourself like a week or two to find a place so you're not stressing out too much and if you are only flirting with the idea and you haven't made like maybe try doing something as we said like one of

those workaways or try doing volunteering abroad for a little while or even just going there and like living there for a month. You know, I guess Americans listening to this will not have that kind of luxury. But, you know, if you're in between jobs or if you have some savings, you know, and just remember, nothing is permanent. Yeah. If you go somewhere and you decide this is the worst, give yourself like a three-month check-in, right?

Yeah. Or a six-month check-in. But that's one big thing. I think not just for moving to new countries. but for so many of our decisions in life we put so much weight on it like this is the be-all and end-all and it's like no it's not you can change your mind at any point yeah you can go home and you know and it's not a big deal it's not a big deal yeah don't put too much don't put too much pressure on yourself and um you know going back to your first point there i totally like 100% have had that

feeling um from long-term traveling you know work up in Guatemala or I think Dubai and just been like, oh God, what have I done? Like genuine kind of regret in that moment thinking I've given up my job, I've rented my room out, I've put things and what have I done in this place? But then, you know, the second day is always that bit better and your kind of nerves start to have to calm down a little bit. Yeah, and so, and it's just normal and I just want everyone to remember that those nerves are normal. And it's part of the excitement. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, do you find that, do you recognize that is just part of the journey now? The pre-jurne, the pre-moved nerves, yeah. Yeah, and I know you still get jitters and I still get jitters, but it's okay. I think it's fun and exciting. And you're a much better planner than I am, I think. And so, but that's another way to help deal with those nerves is just, you know, have your itineraries printed and your plane tickets and know which bus you're going to take and

when and then realize you know what if you miss that bus it's okay another one's coming yeah that's right that's so right i mean you know when i was living in new york um i think one of the nicest experiences i had was completely unplanned um i went to stay with a friend in queen's um because of the hurricane basically and of course we can't ever plan a hurricane but those few days living with her I felt more of a local than I had when I was in downtown Manhattan because I was really kind of

ingrained into that community and it was a bit of a weird time because everything was still kind of on shutdown really and there was no subways really running and stuff but I felt just more kind of I was staying with friends and I was, you know, we were cooking dinner for each other. And that was a really lovely, completely spontaneous time of, as well, spontaneous little kind of experience as a next part that I had. And I think it's one of the standout memories.

And, you know, we ended up, it was around Halloween time. We ended up going drinking in this, like, German beer hall and stuff and had such a lovely time. And you could have never ever planned that. So I'm thinking now talking to you that I need to do. you know, maybe embrace the whole like, um, fly by the seat of your pants, um, kind of, um, journey planning or not planning, as it were. Do it, do it. Maybe I can do a switch.

Maybe I'll try to plan more. Oh, yeah. Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Have anything printed out and lined up? Have all your Google Maps saved and all your pins dropped? Oh, yeah, honestly. We have to do a trip at some point, Gemma.

I think you would be such a fun travel buddy. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I need to kind of calm down with my, uh, you know, inly retentive planning or or maybe just embrace your kind of let's see what happens. Yeah, you're right. We should definitely do that, yeah. We can

see how it works out. I'm going to come up with some ideas. Definitely. Oh, yeah, that'll be some watch the space for a new podcast episode on the road. Yeah. Well, it's been so nice to chat to you again. And thank you for so many, you know, little tips and insights that I could have,

I would have never had a clue about and little kind of ways to become an ex-patter, how to kind of ease yourself into that journey. I think that's really lovely. And I love the way thing you said about, don't worry about thinking you've made the wrong decision. And I love the tips that you've shared about how to meet people as well and how to really get into being a local really as soon as you can. And we don't always get it right and we'll have challenges, but that's like anything in life, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Real, thank you. Thank you so much, Sarah. Well, it's my pleasure. I had such a good time talking to you, Gemma. And I hope to have a real-life coffee with me sometime soon. Yes, we are near.

As soon as you get back from your Italian adventure, let me know, and we will definitely hook up and have a little wine or something like that. Sounds good. Yeah, a little winter wine. Thank you, Sarah. If you are interested in moving abroad, you can visit postcardacademy.co and check out a few articles there that can hopefully help you out, including where and how to live a better life at half the price of the US. And speaking of travel jitters, so last night I landed in Berlin's Tegel Airport, which I've been to several times before. But of course my heart starts beating as we touch the ground because now I have to figure out how to get to my friend's house using public transportation. at night and why can't all transportation just be as easy as it is in London?

But then I take a breath, I go to the information and double check that my route makes sense, it does. I then buy a bus metro ticket from the machine outside and that takes contactless payments and has information in English. And then inside the bus, everything was easy. They had like a sign telling you where you were going. So if I am planned out this trip the way Gemma does, it would have been even easier, but I made it to my friends house, no problem. And now I am just so happy that I'm here. It's pouring, unfortunately, so I'm going to go hang out in a museum for a little while before hitting up those Christmas markets that I mentioned. I hope you enjoyed listening to this episode. If you like what you heard, please

subscribe and share this episode with a friend. That is the best way to grow and support this show. That's all for now. Thanks for listening and have a beautiful week wherever you are. Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free conversation sheet sheet with simple formulas that you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you're in a meeting or just talking with friends. Download it at sarah micotel.com slash blank no more.