Citizens of the World: A Stoic Podcast for Curious Travelers - Why Do You Travel? The World Wanderers Interview Me

Episode Date: June 7, 2019

A few episodes ago, I interviewed the World Wanderers Amanda and Ryan — my favorite podcasting nomad couple  — on the amazing experiences you should have in Mexico City. They had previously interviewed me on their podcast — World Wanderers — and they are kindly letting me share that with you today.    We talk about how I became an expat and found my first job abroad; the beauty and stresses of life as a foreigner; how these challenges change us for the better; and other travel-related topics, including why we travel — a question people ask us all the time. I think it’s just in our blood :)   I’m your host, Sarah Mikutel. Did you know I host another show called Podcasting Step by Step? Check it out if you’ve been wanting to start a podcast. Every week, I break down ‘how to podcast’ with a little loving motivation to give you the skills and confidence you need to finally launch that show of your dreams.   Ready to travel? Sign up for my newsletter and get your free guide to cheap airfare.    Thank you so much for listening to this show. I know you’re busy and have many listening options, so it means a lot to me that you’re here. You are the best.   This podcast is brought to you by Audible. Not a member yet? Postcard Academy listeners can get a FREE audiobook and a 30-day free trial if you sign up via audibletrial.com/postcard   This podcast is also brought to you by World Nomads. Need simple and flexible travel insurance? Get a cost estimate from World Nomads using their handy calculator at postcardacademy.co/insuranceDo you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

Welcome to the Postcard Academy. I'm your host, Sarah Micatel. Thank you so much for being here. I know you have many podcast options, around 700,000 at this point, I think. So it means a lot to me that you are here. A special thanks to listener Liz, who wrote me the following review on Apple Podcasts. A perfect mix of history, travel information, tips, and people's stories. I love that Sarah consults expats. or transplants to the cities, so you can get recommendations from a local wrapped up in their own stories, insights experiences. I always check to see if she's done an episode to get ideas for my destination, or just listen for ideas of where I want to go next. Thank you and keep up the good work. Thank you very much, Liz. You have made my day. And if there is a particular city that you would like me to cover, email me at sarah at postcardacademy.com. Two episodes ago, you heard me interview the world wanderers Amanda and Ryan on their time living in Mexico City. They had interviewed me before on my life and in that interview we also

got into other travel-related topics including why we travel, which is a question that people ask us all the time. I love the location independent life that Amanda and Ryan are living and how they share that life on their podcast World Wanderers. So definitely check them out. This episode first aired over there, and they are letting me replay it here. So let's jump right into our conversation. Enjoy the show. Hello and welcome back to another edition of the podcast.

This week, we are excited to be joined by Sarah Micatel from the Postcard Academy podcast. Sarah is from the States, but has spent the last. eight years living in the UK. And so we talked to her on this week's show about the process of getting interested in travel, learning that because of her Italian heritage, she had the opportunity to get an Italian citizenship and Italian passport and then how that kind of opened the door to her to live and work in Europe. And what that process has been like adjusting to living abroad and lots of good stuff as well. Like I mentioned, Sarah is the host of the Postcard Academy podcast and the podcasting step-by-step podcast. So make sure to go check those out. Lots of great episodes on the Postcard

Academy podcast about travel with lots of nitty-gritty great travel tips that I know you guys like to hear. So without further ado, here is the interview with Sarah. Sarah, welcome to the podcast today. We're super excited to be chatting with you about your travels. I am so excited to be chatting with you guys. for having me on. Yeah, absolutely. And you're joining us from the UK. Is that right? Yes. Right now, I am on the coast in a town called Fokston right on the water. I love it. That's amazing. And so do you base yourself there like the entire year or just like part of the year or how long are you there for? Well, I moved to London in 2011 and had pretty much been in London the entire time, but my sister had a baby a little over a year ago. And so I went home for a little bit to spend some time with my family.

And when I left, I gave up my apartment in London. And when I came back, I was looking for another apartment in London. And it's my favorite city. I love London. But I was thinking, you know what, this is an opportunity to explore something. else in England. So I love the beach and so I just googled, you know, cute seaside towns in England and Fokston has this really, a big coming art scene, lots of really cool boutiques. I feel like it's kind of under the radar. A lot of people know about Brighton, but Fokston's

going to be the next big thing. So that's your little insider world wanderers tip. Nice. Awesome. That's amazing. And so I feel like listeners are probably trying to piece together the fact that you don't have a British accent with the fact that you live in the UK. But I think that that's probably like a bigger story. So maybe let's like back up and kind of talk about like your whole travel story, like how you got into travel and and what kind of led you to to where you are today. Sure. So I didn't grow up doing a bunch of international travel. I went to Canada like once when I was a kid for as part of my dad's job. But when I was 18, I had an English boyfriend. And so that summer, we went to England,

also with a friend of ours. And I spent a summer working as a waitress slash chambermaid in England's Lake District, which to this day, I think, is one of the most beautiful, maybe even the most gorgeous place I've ever been. And so I was scrubbing bathtubs, doing like the hardest labor I've ever done in my life. It was not, it was just not the easiest job, but despite how hard it was, I fell in love with England. I spent all of my free time just wandering around in the countryside, did side trips up to Scotland. I went to London for the very first time then, and I just knew, okay, this is my place. I want to be in Europe. I want to spend a lot more time in England. And so I did. I came back and did a, I studied abroad for one semester in London. And then after that, I could not figure out a way as an American where I could live in work full time. You know, as a student, it's quite easy to do these things. But so just moved back to the States and lived there for many years. And when I was living in New York, I was doing a random Google search. I still don't even really remember how this came about.

but I realized, oh, I think I might be eligible for dual citizenship with Italy. Yeah, so something that we're, I mean, I think that that's like such an interesting kind of thing to happen is like, you're like on the internet. And it's funny how we can get in these like internet wormholes where like you hit the back bar for like 10 minutes. So you really don't know like how you've ended up somewhere, but you've like found that like little. It's kind of like finding like, I don't know, the needle in the haystack. like there's some sort of like gold within all of this random Googling that you've been doing. But can you talk about like, so you've like figured out that potentially there's a chance that you can get Italian citizenship?

And then what does that process actually look like from there? Because I would imagine that it's like not easy to actually, you know, get that second pass for it. Yeah. So I, you know, I think I had heard like, oh, you know, if your grandfather was Italian or something, maybe it was a possibility. So it's not anything that I seriously looked into because it was my great-grandparents that had come over to the United States. And yeah, so by chance, I found that this was a thing that some other people were doing.

And I started digging deeper. And I realized, oh, actually, if you have Italian blood, you can go back as far as you want. It doesn't really matter. There's just one sort of arbitrary quirk where my grandparents, they did not naturalize in the U.S. until after their kids were born. And that made everyone down the line eligible for Italian citizenship. Had they become U.S. citizens before my grandfather was born, I would not be eligible. I wouldn't have been eligible for citizenship. So I just got really, really lucky.

And then I started the process of applying for citizenship. So I was living in New York. And it's really complicated if you apply in the States. So you have to gather all of your documents from your family going back to your, you know, for me, my great-grandparents. So birth certificates, death certificates, marriage certificates, nobody's name was spelled the same on any document. When people came in through Ellis Island, nobody cared about spelling back then. And so you have to go, we had to go to, you know, get, you know, official court documents saying, you know, this Giovanni is the same. Is this Giovanni?

Even though the name is spelled different, you had to get pastilles. And then, so my mom was helping me with this process. You have to get all of the Italian documents translated. Sorry, you have to get all of the English documents translated into Italian. And then I found out it would still take like eight months to. a year to apply. And the woman who was translating my document said, oh, you know, if you just move to Italy, the process will be much, much faster. And I had never heard about this about Italy in my life, you know, like it's famous for its bureaucracy. And, but she had done the same. She went to this

small town called Reggio Amelia and she said, you know what? I got my passport in two months or like a month. So, you know, if you want to go there, this town's really efficient. And so I said, oh, okay, I think I'm going to go. So I didn't know this lady at all, but I took her advice and packed up my life in New York and flew to Italy on a one-way ticket and made my home there. And I applied for citizenship and I got my passport in like two months. Wow. So what were you doing for work at the time? And did you have to kind of like quit that and start anew when you got to Italy? You know, that's a funny, that's a funny question. So two years earlier before any of the citizenship happened, I spent two months in Rome.

And before that, I was working at a publishing company in New York. And I told them about my Italy plans. And they said, you know, we think that. That's great, but we don't want you to go. Like, we think you have a lot of potential. Because I was talking about quitting my job. And they said, you know, we don't believe in sabbaticals. So we really think that you should stay here.

And I said, you know, I really like this job. I really like you guys. But I'm ready to try something new. So I went over to Rome just for two months, was doing like a language class and hanging out. And then I went back to New York. and that same job hired me back and promoted me, which is something that never would have happened had I stayed when they wanted me to stay. And so I stayed there for another two years.

And then when I decided I was going to pursue the citizenship, I left that job again. And so, yeah, so I had to leave that job. And when I was applying for citizenship in Italy, I wasn't working. I was just living, making friends. practicing my Italian. It was a nice life. Nice. Yeah. And what was it, was it just the fact that like the weight times were less or were there actually different things about the process when you were living in Italy? And I'm actually curious because, so my grandfather is Italian. And so that when kind of we were reading about it, it was like, oh, this is interesting because this is something I've thought about

doing myself. Yeah. For me, yeah, it was a few things. So the New York consulate has a reputation for being really, really difficult and rejecting a lot of people and doing a lot of back and forth, like, you know, oh, these two documents didn't match up because this person's name has an extra A in it, just like a lot of sticklers about just the spellings of things. But then also I've heard like sort of arbitrary rejections. I just heard it could be really difficult there. And I didn't want a chance. And I was just ready to live in Europe. I was ready to go for it. And so I didn't want to stay and take my chances and wait a year when I could just go there. And, you know, for me, I had no reservations at all about going. So I got my citizenship in

Italy. But my mom actually did it through New York like a few years later. She decided to just go for it. And she ended up getting it through New York. Yeah. I mean, it kind of makes sense at that point. I don't know if they take this into account, but it's like, okay, well, like, my daughter has an Italian passport. So, like, clearly I can have that type thing. You would think, but I'm not sure how joined up these things are. You would have thought that it would have been. I'm sure they're giant holes in the process. Totally.

A friend who's American, but has Mexican heritage. And we met in Mexico, and he was, like, going through this process of trying to get a Mexican passport. And it seemed like there was just all sorts of weird workarounds. And he was kind of on a quest to try to make it happen. Yeah. And I didn't need as much. Sorry, go on.

I was just going to say. And his dad was like born in Mexico too. Yeah. I don't think I needed as much paperwork in Italy as the New York consulate wanted in America. In Italy, they really didn't want much at all. They just wanted the naturalization certificate. and like proof that my grandfather was born later. I don't remember needing anything else.

But yeah, that's interesting what you say about your friend in Mexico because I lived with a flatmate at one point and his mother was Italian, but she had given up her citizenship. And so he was ineligible. And it just doesn't seem fair, you know? Yeah, we were looking.

So on the other side of my family, my dad was actually born in Scotland. And so we were looking at like both of those. processes. And the one in the UK, there's some weird stuff about marriage. Like if your, like, parents weren't married at the time you were born or if it was like, it's different if your father was from the UK or your mom was from the UK. It's, it's kind of funny to like look at these roles and be like, oh, it's still like this. Like, I hate saying it, but it's like, it's 2019 and there's like different rules based off if it was like your father or your mother or if they were married

to not marry. But these things are just like so old and like so slow to change and adapt that it and so arbitrary. It just doesn't make sense. It's just the luck of the draw. But I heard in Italy actually they were making some changes because there was something where it's easier to get it through your paternal line. Your maternal line like the your grandmother or great grandmother or whoever it has to be a certain year for the woman, whereas for the guy, it doesn't. And so I'm not explaining this very well. But I know that there's like some slow progress in to the, at least the equality of that, to that part of it.

That's like a little hopeful, I think. Yeah. And so you had moved over to Italy. We're pretty confident that you were going to get the passport. What was kind of going on in your plans, like kind of in your mind? What were you thinking at that town? I'm like, all right, I'm going to just be in Italy for the rest of my life? Or what were you thinking?

I wouldn't say that I was confident that I was going to get the passport. Like, I was confident in my move there and, like, happy in my decision to just leave everything behind. I was surprised that it happened so fast. I was actually planning on, you know, spending a bit of time and having this weight in Italy. And then I got my passport. And I was like, oh. what should I do now? I have all of this freedom. I could really go anywhere in Europe. But I had made such good friends there and Reggio Emile just started to feel like home for me. I decided to

stick around. So I spent, you know, I think 10 months there. But my money was running out. I wasn't working. And you know, it's very different living in a country where, you don't really know the language. So I was, you know, doing my best to learn it and doing conversation exchanges and things like that. But it was a very interesting experience, having that immigrant experience where, you know, just even little things like going grocery shopping and getting nervous when the lady at the cash register asks you something. And there's a big line behind you and you don't know what she says. And you're just standing. there like, I don't know what's going on. Just like that whole process of assimilation, I think,

has made me very, very empathetic to immigrants around the world. And it just stretches you out of your comfort zone. I think I'm, you know, a different person now, a better person having had those experiences. So I really enjoyed living in Italy, but eventually I needed to start making money again. And so I moved to England in 2011. And England has always felt like home to me. And so yeah, so I made my life here. Yeah, that's amazing. And to your point about, you know, those like, it's like those little things in life that we take for granted when we're at home where you're like, oh, this is like so easy. Like every time we come back to Canada, I'm like, oh, grocery shopping. Like, it's so easy here. Like I know how the grocery store is laid out. I can read. And I can read.

everything. I understand the pricing system. I can like have a conversation with the cashier and it's like not awkward because I'm not like fumbling in the language or just not speaking at all. And I find even something like the post office like I really dread having to like deal with any type of male situation in like any foreign country. And it's kind of funny because we lived in the US for a short period of time in like the southern US. And even there I remember going to send something and the woman's like you did this wrong. And I was like, how do I not know how to send postage in America? She was like looking at me like I was like the stupidest human ever and I was like, I'm not from here.

Like can you just walk me through how to do this? Because it's like actually quite different for whatever I was trying to do. And she was like, okay. And like walked me through everything. And I was like, man, it's like it is like those little things where you're consistently like being a little bit challenged, which can feel sometimes frustrating. But I think also definitely gives you like a very strong positive viewpoint. Yeah, I mean, everything can feel like a struggle at first because you're right.

Like all the little things are different. At the grocery store, you're in a lot of places you are supposed to bag your own groceries. So you're standing there in the U.S. You don't bag your own groceries. And so, you know, little things like that where, yeah, people don't know that you don't know these things. And you just have to figure it out. And it makes you more comfortable feeling dumb, I guess. You know, you just get used to being the person who doesn't know.

what's going on. Yeah, and there's like the weighing of the fruit. Yeah, that's what I was just going to say. Like some places, yeah, like the first time we encountered that where we were supposed to have gone and weighed our produce and we're like at the tail and they're trying to explain this to us in whatever language it was and we're like, oh, I have no idea what's going on. I think we're in Spain and our Spanish was very poor at the time. And they're like trying to tell us what to do and they're just like pointing and I'm like, no, but I want to buy this thing. Yeah, we're like thinking they're asking us about something. I'm like, I don't want more bananas. I remember in Italy I needed to find matches once because our stove was a gas stove. And I needed to light it with matches. And I couldn't find them anywhere.

I was like, they're not at the grocery store. Who on our, where are these matches? And eventually I found them at like the tobaccaria where people can buy like cigarettes and stuff. But yeah, there was not not a guidebook for that one. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's so random. Like those things that you're like, I don't use these in daily life and like I have a good idea of where I'd find this at home, but just have no idea how to do this. But yeah, I could see Italy definitely being different for sure. Yeah, and then it's like letting go of those comforts, right?

Like a lot of your favorite foods and different things like that that you have at home are not going to be in that new place that you're going to. And so what was the process like getting to England and looking for a job? Did you find it like pretty straightforward and easier? Were there some like challenges there with even though you had the European passport, but like being American and trying to get the job? It was more challenging that I thought it was going to be. So I had worked in New York City for a number of years. You know, I had a bunch of different jobs.

I worked for the New York City Council and their press office. I worked for the Mogherty Hill companies in their corporate communications department. And so I had some pretty good jobs. And I didn't think it would be difficult moving into something similar when I got to London. So I got there. I applied for, you know, my national insurance number. The back end of things, the paperwork was pretty smooth. But I met with a bunch of different recruiters.

And they all said, you know, you have never worked here in the UK. You are probably going to have to find like a contracting, like temporary type job to get your foot in the door. And I was thinking, I came from New York City. You know, like, if I can make it there, I can make it anywhere. But they. Did Alicia Keys lie to me? Yeah, exactly. They didn't care.

They were like, nope, you are. brand new here, you're a foreigner, you need to prove yourself. And that ended up being like such a blessing because I ended up doing these contract jobs. So I do like marketing communications work. And I don't even know how it works in the States because I've never done this kind of work over there. But here you get paid more money if you are doing contract work because the jobs are short, shorter term between like three months and two years and so you don't have that stability um sometimes you know I guess often you don't have benefits but you get paid more which is great and so in between jobs I would just take off you know a few months at a time and go traveling and so for me it's worked

out perfectly um I don't think I would have done it differently yeah that sounds like you've got a or that you had like at that time a really good balance kind of between this like okay i can set up my life in london get some work experience working in the uk but then also explore because i think and tell me if i'm wrong but probably one of the challenges is like okay you like worked really hard to get this passport and now you've got access to all of europe and it must have felt so good to like not have that like oh it's like coming up on 90 days like i need to leave or like my student visas running out. It's like you just don't have to leave because you're a citizen now. But then you're also like creating a life in London. So it's the balance of exploring but also settling a little bit.

Yeah. For me, I've really enjoyed being an expat and having, yeah, kind of like the best of both worlds. So having this solid base and making friends here and making a life here, you know, I do feel really at home like this is this is my home and um yeah i've not had to worry about the 90 days thing although i would have to say for a few years having my italian passport whenever i would go through porter control i would get so nervous that they would say hey you don't deserve this we're taking this back you know like irrational paranoia but um yeah but it has worked out yeah yeah that's that's great i feel like it would be like I don't have a second passport so I feel like I would probably experience that too

because it's like I don't know passports are so weird because you're just kind of born with being like okay I'm a citizen of ex country and I identify as this but then getting like a second one that opens up like all these doors for you I feel like there definitely would be that sort of like fear of what if one day they're just like oh this isn't real enough for us or like you're not Italian enough to come in type thing which obviously is not going to happen but I actually did run into like a border problem right before I had my Italian passport. So I had been living in Italy for a month or so and came over to England to visit a friend. And the lady at the border agents said, why are you here? Like she accused me of overstaying my time in Italy and coming to England just to try to I don't know, do some sort of like border hopping trick.

And I was doing couch surfing and she had never heard of that. And she was like, that's insane. Why would you be staying with a stranger? And then she called the guy. I didn't know him. And so I was shaking. But eventually they let me go but put like a big stamp in my passport saying I had to like be out with. within a week and I wasn't eligible for benefits. And so, yeah, they can be really scary at the border.

Yeah, it's kind of crazy how much power they can have over those types of things. And yeah, thankfully, knock on wood, we haven't had anything like that. But that is like really intimidating because it's like, oh, you've like spent money to like go on this trip and you want to go obviously. And then they're like, okay, no, just like go on back to where you came from. It's also super awkward that they call the coach surfer that you're staying with. I feel like we've hosted coach surfers and I feel like just thinking about the other end of that feels so awkward. And yeah, I think they don't even know what the rules are. You know, I had like a visa for Italy. So they just, yeah, I think that they can just be tough. I think that's so unfortunate when they're supposed to be

kind of the welcome to a new country. Yeah, I feel exactly the same. I feel exactly the same. way, like, there's such an opportunity because it's like, it's like being in like a business where like all of your competition are just gigantic dicks. Like if here in Canada, we were like, hey, our border roads are going to be like nice and friendly and welcoming. That would make like a serious impact on like, you know, millions of tourists coming into this country every year. You would talk about it all over the place. But instead, they're just like, I don't know. I feel like the philosophy or the idea must be that, hey, if you are super skeptical and, like, come across as, like, really intense and domineering, that's going to make, like, bad people nervous and they're going to, like, out themselves more easily. Like, that must be why they are all such dicks.

Like, I can't imagine why else they treat you so mean. I can't imagine that that philosophy, like, that strategy actually works, you know? Yeah. It's like, oh, sorry, I lied. I just need to go back home. Let me back on that plane. I feel like it works the opposite. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Like, it's like... Especially like, I always hate it too. And I don't know if it's just an unnecessary diversion in the middle of this. But getting back to Canada, like we've been, we travel a lot. We go a lot of places, which I think is a bit weird. Like, you know, being in Mexico for half the year. But then coming home and you're like, I'm coming home. And they're like, where have you been?

why have you been there so long? Where'd you get your money from? Blah, blah, blah. We can't, okay, but actually in all fairness, we've had, like, basically no issues with Canada over the last couple of years. Like, the last time we entered, which was just like about a month and a half ago, we got asked no questions. That's true. Like the guy's like, how's it going? And I'm like, good. And he's like, okay, great, like, Carousel 12 for your luggage. And I'm like, okay, sweet.

Yeah, that was better. The last couple of times, I feel like it has gotten better. but there has been in the past times where you are right. It's like, okay, well, like, it's my birthright to enter this country. So, like, can you just, like, let me off through? It's like, you come home after, like, a night of drinking. And your parents are like, where have you been? Were you with Steve?

I know that kid's bad news. Well, one of the great things about traveling with the European passport over here in Europe is you can usually avoid these days, these human interactions. because the passports have microchips and so you can just scan it at an electric turnstile and just get world right in. Yeah, that's amazing. We need that here in Canada. Yeah, what was the process of like obviously you'd been to the UK before you really liked

it there and we talked a little bit about the work side of it. But what was it like kind of adjusting to life there? And was your mindset at the time like, hey, I'm going to be here for, you know, five years or forever? What were you thinking? I think that I've heard that the difference between an expat and an immigrant is an expat doesn't really know how long they're going to be in a place. They want to be there, but they don't really know how long. And so I knew I really wanted to be in England. And I guess I wouldn't say the tradition. A lot of people say, oh, a year, to I really had no idea. I just knew that I wanted to be there. And so yeah, I don't, so you're

asking what my, what my first experiences were. Yeah, sorry. So it was kind of like a three questions that I just lumped into one and throughout you. But yeah, kind of, so what was, what was your thought process at the time? And then what was it like kind of getting used to that? because I know, like for us, for example, when we went to Mexico City, we were never thinking, it was an idea, like, kind of in the side of our heads, we're like, hey, if we like it here, we might stay for a while, but we weren't really planning on staying for seven months. And it's kind of, yeah, it was just like getting into the rhythm of this city, really enjoying it, and then like, okay, we're going to get an apartment.

So kind of for you, like, yeah, that mindset and then what was that experience like of kind of adjusting to this reality of it's like no I'm not on vacation anymore I'm not on a temporary thing like I'm living in the UK now yeah I was just really really excited for every new experience and I before I left Italy I found this website called spare room and I was able to find an apartment before I even got to England so I felt really lucky about that I Skyped with the guy before leaving Italy. He seemed normal. We both took a chance on each other. Like, I didn't wire him any money. So he had faith that I would show up. I had faith that, you know, things would work out. And so I had my apartment lined up. And I didn't have a job when I first moved there.

So I mentioned to you guys, you know, I had to go on a bunch of interviews and meet with a bunch of different recruiters. And so I had some spare time, you know, while I was, waiting for a job to come through to explore the city. I think that my Italian actually got better in England than it did in Italy because London is like half Italian. I swear there's so many Italians working there. And so there were lots of people to do conversation exchanges with. And there's a website called conversation exchange.com, which I think is a great way for people,

no matter where you're living or traveling around the world, it's a really nice way to meet new people. And especially for English speakers, you know, there's people all around the world who want to practice their English. So it's a really good way to meet a local person. So I did a bunch of conversation exchanges, met some people that way. There's a company called London Walks over here. So I think getting your bearings in a new place,

Doing walking tours is a great way to do that. And I met a new friend doing that walking tour. So I don't know if you guys feel this, but I feel when you move to a new place, especially a new country, it's easier to make new friends and to meet new people than it would be if you stayed in your hometown. Because you put yourself out there more and it just feels a bit more natural to approach people and say, hey, I just got into town. Do you want to hang out? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's like, you know, I guess I experienced this kind of the first time in like a non-travel way because I think

there's kind of like those friendships you make while you're traveling. So maybe it's like on a tour or in a hostel or like at a co-working space or something like that. And I think that those can obviously lead to great friendships as well. But I think it's a little bit different than if you're like trying to dive into a city and meet people who are maybe already locals there. And I found that when we moved to Atlanta, I knew nobody but Ryan. And Ryan was working full time. He was on a work visa. I wasn't.

And so I was like doing all sorts of things to try to like meet people that were like minded and had interests the same as myself. And it was I felt like I was like kind of dating a little bit. Like it's like I would go and I would scope out the situation and I'd be like, okay, who looks interesting? And then I had to make that like call to action at the end like, hey, can I add you on Facebook or can I get your number? Like maybe we can hang out sometime. And it was this thing that I'd kind of never experienced before because I'd always had like school or my group of friends from home. And like you're

saying, no real incentive to go out and find new friends. Like I would definitely make new friends through friends of friends or coworkers or that sort of thing. But it wasn't like I was actively looking for those people. And I feel like that's such a great like life skill. to have as an adult to be able to just like go and make friends. Yeah, I think now we were talking about how like travel can stretch you and make you grow. I feel like now back in the States I would feel more comfortable approaching people or just, you know, making new friends back in the U.S. where I think when I lived there, that would have felt a little bit weird and awkward to me.

You know, whereas over here, yeah, you have to put yourself out there. And then you mentioned like the sort of dating aspect. I had forgotten this, but I had did a bunch of different meetup groups for the first year or so when I was here. So I think meet up groups can be a great way to meet new people who also want to meet new people. You know, we're all in the same boat, especially when you're in a big city like London. You know, it's quite transient. There's people coming and going and people want to make those connections and are, you know, I find quite open to hanging out. And I had mentioned that walking tour. Yeah, the friend that I met was an American. So, oh, sorry, I'm just sort of like rambling. But I find accents are a fun way to meet people. Like I've met a good American friends here just by like hearing them speak. And then just. just shedding them up like, oh, where are you from? How long have you been here? And I had

like made a really good group of core friends over here. Just, you know, random meetings and starting to talk to them. Yeah, yeah, we absolutely. We've kind of had the same thing too, like, especially being in countries where like it's not the same language. Like Mexico, for example, it's like you hear English speakers like at the co-working space. And so it's like you have this like, oh, I can eavesdrop because I fully understand everything you're saying. And then it's like you can kind of chime in if you want or like start talking to them. And I feel like there is kind of that like you have that immediate connection because you've got this like we've got a couple things in common. Like you understand each other's language or you know maybe it's that accent thing so you know you're from the same place.

But then it's like you also know that you have this thing in common with them being kind of like an outsider in this foreign place. And it's like they kind of get it. Like it's not weird. Like I don't know what your family's like. But for us it's always kind of like telling our parents about these like. weird things that we kind of encounter in other places. And they're like, oh, like, that's so strange. Like, so glad it's you and not us type thing.

And, yeah, so it's easy to meet other expats and foreigners. I think when it comes to meeting locals, like people who were, for me, like actual English people that started more when I started working. because yeah, the English people here, they've grown up here. You know, they have their core group of friends, and they are not necessarily out, hanging out with all of the foreigners. Not that they don't want to, but they just, you know, already have their world set up. So that's another nice thing about being an ex-Pez, spending more time and getting to meet people through other avenues like work. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so you lived in London, you said, for eight years? Yeah, 2011. It's 2019. So yeah, it's almost my eight year anniversary. That's amazing. And you said that like England kind of feels like home. Like do you still feel that way? Like this is like your country. This is your place. Like this is where you're going to be for a little while?

I wish I could say that, Amanda. But with Brexit, going on. It's like a big chaotic over here and I am really not sure what's going on. They have not set up any real rules or boundaries as far as immigration goes. I don't know how much you guys are following the Brexit situation. Do you guys know that much about it? Yeah, the kind of big overarching stuff that's going on but not like the nitty. Obviously being like other sides. the world. Not too many English friends don't know like too much of the nitty gritty. Yeah. So one of the big reasons that Brexit happened for the vote is, you know, there was a certain segment of the population who don't really like that open borders, immigrants coming

in and out, like even in the EU. And so for all of us who are here on European passports, our future is uncertain. And I have to say that after like the Brexit vote, I felt like England lost a little bit of the magic for me. And I'm still hoping for like a second referendum vote because I think the UK should be part of the European Union. I really love the EU's values. And yeah.

So I do see myself here in England, but we'll see what comes of Brexit and whether the European Union even stays together, I guess. Have you kind of put together, like, in your mind, what you would do if you did have to leave? And kind of would it be going to Italy, staying in Europe? I know we talked a little bit off there about the idea of Mexico, but what are your thoughts on that? You know, my heart is in England. I really do want to stay here. So if it had to be another country, I think, you know, I would think about trying Ireland or Italy. But the alternative, I guess, would be to try to find a permanent job in England rather than do freelance as what I'm doing now. So trying to put down, I guess, more solid roots. which is kind of the opposite of what I want to be doing because I've been working really hard this year to set up more of like a location independent lifestyle. And that is something that's very important to me.

So, yeah, I guess I would have to balance out, balance those desires out. Right. It's like this desire to be in a country that maybe might be challenging to be in versus having your work freedom and your travel freedom that you've worked hard for, which is something I think we can really relate to. Like it definitely makes it a little bit challenging for us when we think of living outside of Canada, which is like something we really enjoy doing. Like obviously it's quite easy to be location independent in Canada because Canada doesn't really care like what we do and we can get jobs here if we want. And it's quite easy because it's our home country. But it's like

anytime we go somewhere else, I feel like there's always these kind of challenges. And, you know, I mean, I mean, we're really like lucky to be at a life situation where, you know, we can have this type of conversation. And I definitely acknowledge that. But at the same time, it does feel like pretty frustrating when you're actually in it and having to experience that. Yeah. And I hear all the time people talk about how they hated corporate life and needed to escape it. And I never hated corporate life. I found it to be very easy to like just show up, get a paycheck and, you know, life is great. However, like freedom is really important to me. And so, yeah, you guys are just making me think very deeply about my future in the next year of my life. You know, I, yeah, maybe Ireland.

I love Italy. I spend time, a lot of time there. I'm going there next week when my mom comes to visit me. But it is culturally very, very different than what I grew up with. And part of me really loves that. But do I want to live there full time? I'm really not sure. I feel like America and the UK are pretty aligned in many respects. And so, yeah, TBD.

I'm not really sure. No, that's totally fun. Yeah, maybe Mexico. Who knows? Mexico is a great option. Yeah, so you are also a podcast host. You host the Postcard Academy podcast. Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, what you do with that, you know, the online business that you run and that sort of thing? Sure. I mean, Postcard Academy is sort of like a labor of love that started after I was working like really crazy hours at a 10. startup. I was actually the podcast producer for them. That's how I got into the whole podcasting thing. And that job just really exhausted me. But I still wanted to make time to travel around Europe while I'm here. Because even though I think I want to be here long term, I really don't know. So I want to make the most of it while I am here. And I just wanted to get on a plane and like sit back and listen to a podcast and that tells me like all the hidden gems that I need to see

in a particular city and I wasn't finding the podcast that I was looking for I didn't know about the world wanderers then so I don't know if we do that either so probably not and so I just vaguely mentioned that there were some hidden gems but then not actually tell the listeners what they are but they write us angry messages. Okay so you guys can listen to the postcard again and me for that. So I decided to start my own travel podcast that would focus on that. And I really wanted to focus on female travelers. I interview guys sometimes too, but I just noticed that in like films and books, a lot of the women travelers are portrayed as these women who are in crisis going through some sort of crazy divorce or just having some sort of trauma. And I know,

that there are many women out there who are strong women, they know what they want, they just want to explore the world, and I just wanted to shine a light on those women. And so I, every week, interview a woman who has packed up everything to move to another place and find out how she did it, either visa-wise or, you know, whatever her story is so she can live there and then get her insider tips on the best food and what museums we have to go to and the local experiences that we need to have. And so it's an interview-based show and I really love doing it. Yeah, that's awesome. And I'm glad that you can provide listeners with the actual hidden gems. I think that's really cool. And I also really like the fact that you're kind of changing, changing that like mindset over the

like female archetype that's like has been portrayed in a lot of things around. like female travel because I think that, you know, obviously everyone goes and travels for for their own unique reason. And I think that if you're going through something, travels a really great way to kind of, you know, find out who you are and what you want. And so there's nothing wrong with that. But it is kind of like, you know, has been portrayed quite a bit in the media and books and movies and all that type of stuff. So I think it's nice to just see like, okay, you know, it's possible as a woman to go out and travel and, you know, like you said, know what you want and be confident with that and just be like a strong independent person. And I think too, also breaking down those barriers of like the

stigma that maybe you can't travel alone as a woman or maybe the world is really dangerous for women traveling. Because I think, you know, even for us being like a couple that travels, we get a lot of like females who write in specifically to me and they're like, hey, can you tell me what your experience was like with like safety in this place like did you feel comfortable when you weren't with Ryan and that type of thing so there's definitely like still kind of that like fear aspect out there or that uncertainty because I think people are starting to talk more about it and there's more like people starting to travel on their own but still not it's becoming bigger but it's still not I think looks super mainstream yeah I agree women are curious about safety and rightly so

And I just think it's also a good example to say, you know, I think it's really cool that you guys are traveling as a couple. But if you don't have a partner, it's, you can still pack up and go somewhere on your own and make it happen. And it's not weird. And you're going to meet new friends on the road. And so just sort of, yeah, not give permission, but just to say, you know, look at these other women who went out. out and try this. Like this world is open to you as well. Yeah. Yeah. It's more of like kind of an open door invitation like kind of letting people just know kind of what's out there. Because I think that it is still like once you've traveled, I feel like it's like the world becomes like bigger and clearer to

you like you kind of understand, you know, maybe like what we've experienced. But when you haven't traveled, you see like what's on the news. You see what's in the media. And it feels like the world is a very big, scary place. And I think that there is, you know, safety concerns that we do have to consider, especially, like, as a woman, you know, if you're, like, traveling at night by yourself, like, you do have to be cautious. But it's also, like, knowing that, you know, the world is also, like, a big, beautiful place with really kind people that will help you and you need it and take you in and feed you and that type of thing. And also, I think that the interest in living abroad is going up. but people are kind of confused as to how they can make it happen like I was back when I lived in New York.

It was like, I really want to live in another country. Not that I don't like my country, but I just want to go out and explore something new. And I couldn't figure out how to make it happen until I just randomly came across, you know, website saying that I could do it. And so just showing examples of how other people were able to make this happen. Right. Yeah. That's definitely been like something that we've really wanted to share with with listeners and readers. And, you know, I don't know, people on Instagram and Facebook and that sort of thing.

Just like our family, friends. Like, you know, it is possible to live somewhere else. And we talked about in an episode, I think a couple of weeks ago, trying to figure out like maybe like do we have like a weird gene? where we just like always kind of wanted to travel and like both of us always like never really saw ourselves like living where we're from. And it's like, is that something that, you know, some people just have and some people just don't? Like how does it end up that, you know, like clearly you're in the same boat where you're like, okay, I just want to live somewhere else. And I can relate to that. But I have friends who are like, oh, it's like so weird that you don't

just want to live like in Canada type thing. You know what? I think it is a gene thing to be. honest with you because I feel like that's a question that people pose to travelers all the time. Why do you like to travel? Like what's in it for you? And people don't ask that question of a bunch of other things. You know, like, why do you like sports? Why do you like to sing? Why are you attracted to this person?

Why do you like this kind of food? It just is. That's just what we're into. You know, that's what we feel in our bones is we want to go out and experience. the world. And I don't know if you guys ever get this feeling, but I love living in England. I do feel at home here, but I also feel homesick for everywhere I'm not. There's a bunch of different places that I'm aching to be at any given moment. You know, I'm very happy here in England. But right now, I'm like, I kind of wish I was in Italy. I kind of wish I was in Mexico, you know?

And it's just part of who we are, I think. It's not words. There's just not words, I guess. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can absolutely relate to that. Like, when people ask about getting homesick, I'm like, homesickness is kind of shifted to something weird to me because I don't really have, like, I don't really have a physical home in Canada.

So it's like sometimes I miss like our mountain community or like, I'm like, oh, it'd just be nice to like go for like tea with my mom or like my back. friend but then other times yeah breathe in like the fresh air but then other times it's like oh man I really just wish like it's in Mexico City and I could go like walk through the park and eat a good taco and then there's other times where like you know I'll miss somewhere else like like the southern US or you know like really crave like being back in Bali or something like that so I can definitely relate to that too where it's I've sort of thought about how like it's like a kind of a blessing and a curse when you live in other places because

At least for me, it's like I feel at home in a lot of different places in the world now. So it's incredible that we can like go to these places and like I get off the plane and it feels just as natural as being in Alberta, which is where I spent, you know, the first however many years of my life, like where I grew up. But then it's also tough because you constantly want to be in these like different places plus exploring new places. So there's this constant desire for kind of more in in some ways. do you would you say you feel like a citizen of the world yeah i don't i don't love like that saying i guess and i think it's maybe just because it's i feel like it's been like overused in some ways but yeah i think that is like a good way to describe it like i don't really feel more attached to one place than another and i find that i feel very much at home i think we need to take i think we need to take

back the phrase because i think uh for me i definitely feel like a citizen of the world and maybe some people have turned it into a cliche, but I feel like I don't identify to just one place. Yeah, I kind of think of it like, so we went through this period of time where companies became like multinational companies and that right now we're going through a time where people are coming multinational people or there's a book I really like called the sovereign individual. And so I kind of like thinking of it like that.

like we're sovereign individuals. Like we kind of have transcended the concept of being kind of like trapped in one nation state where you're like given permission to live in one place. That's the way to think about it. I like that. Multinational. I'm going to put that on my, what's your citizenship? Multinational.

Multinational individual. Although I don't want to get pulled into like the office at the border guard place. You need a passport. I have transcended, but the concept. Don't even worry about it. We've transcended. They're like, you're going to have to get back on that plane. We're going to put you on a plane to somewhere.

So you know that's where that is. Oh, that's so funny. This has been super fun. I've loved this conversation. And it's been just really cool to connect with you because you're, you know, clearly so like-minded with us. And it's just always really refreshing to have these conversations. I'm curious if people want to go check out what you're,

up to, you know, listen to your podcast, that sort of thing. Where can they go to find you? You can listen to Postcard Academy, the podcast, the website's postcardacademy.com. And I just launched a new podcast called Podcasting Step by Step. I have had so much fun podcasting that I want to help other people learn how to do it as well. So, yeah, check out podcasting step by step wherever you listen to podcasts. Awesome. Amazing. Thank you so much, Sarah. Thanks, guys. I have really enjoyed this conversation as well. Are you a multinational sovereign citizen of the world? Of course you are. If you are listening to this podcast, then you are a fellow global citizen, and I really hope that our travel paths cross some time in the future.

Until then, you can visit postcardacademy.com for more travel stories, or find me on Instagram if you would like to say hello. at Sarah Micahettle. That's all for now. Thanks for listening and have a beautiful week wherever you are. Do you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free conversation sheet sheet with simple formulas that you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you're in a meeting or just talking with friends. Download it at sarahmicatel.com slash blank no more.