Closing Bell - Manifest Space: Space Billionaire Reaches for the Stars with Kam Ghaffarian 4/18/24

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

While space billionaires have a slew of visions for the future of humanity, few are literally reaching for the stars literally. Kam Ghaffarian, the co-founder of Axiom Space, Intuitive Machines and more, joins Morgan Brennan from the Space Symposium to discuss the trillion-dollar opportunity in the space economy, nuclear reactors and more.

Elon Musk wants to make humankind multi-planetary through Mars. Jeff Bezos wants to settle the moon and colonize space. Cam Gaffarian wants to go even farther. The stars. There's this common denominator of combining altruism, you know, something, doing something purposeful and good, and combine it with capitalism to make a positive impact. Now just focusing a little bit further, the vision for IBX is protecting our home, our

planet, and then finding new homes in stars. And everything is involved to do that. So on the space side, if we say that the ultimate destiny for humanity is interstellar travel and going to stars, then we need to take care of a lot of intermediary steps to do that. It would sound far-fetched if it wasn't for his track record. Ghaffarian is, as Forbes recently wrote, the billionaire who helped NASA return to the moon. He's the co-founder and chairman of Intuitive Machines, which recently made history when its commercial lunar lander touched down successfully. He's also the chairman and co-founder of Axiom Space, which now regularly sends private astronauts to the ISS and is building a commercial space station,

as well as co-founder and chairman of Quantum Space, which is focused on deep space commerce, and X Energy, which makes nuclear reactors. All of it orbits around his star, IBX, a family office focused on investing in companies that better humanity by doing things never been done before. So the idea is how do you create a business model that you are purposeful, you're making a difference, but also combine it with a business model that actually can provide return to the investors in a massive way. I think the space economy is just growing. The whole ecosystem is growing in a massive way. And I think what's happening also with AI and quantum computing is accelerating it. So not only, you know, we're making a difference for everybody on Earth

with stuff that we're doing in Leo and beyond, but also we're pushing the envelope in human exploration of, you know, other planets and hopefully other stars. Ghaffarian holds two PhDs and made his first fortune building a government services contractor called Stinger Ghaaffarian Technologies that was eventually sold to KBR. On this episode from the Space Symposium in Colorado Springs, a rare sit down with a visionary who became a billionaire by helping to create this new space economy. Why he believes it will be worth trillions of dollars and and how his companies are in fact shooting for the stars. I'm Morgan Brennan, and this is Manifest Space.

Joining me here at Space Symposium, Cam Gaffarian, a man who needs no introductions. Because you've been involved in space for quite a while, and you are absolutely prolific when we talk about the commercialization of low-Earth orbit and building out this new space economy. So it's such a pleasure and a privilege to sit down and speak with you. Welcome. Thank you. Pleasure is all mine.

Where to start? I think let's start with a big-picture question, and that is where are we headed with the space economy? I think we're headed to an exciting new world. I truly believe that. You mentioned I've had over 40 years of experience in space, and so I'm a space cadet. It's in my DNA from childhood. Of course, I love space and everything related to space,

but I think we live in a golden era of space exploration and I think things are accelerating and taking off in a very very rapid way. It's really exciting. Yeah and of course you have a big hand in that because you've been the co-founder of Axiom Space which is now regularly bringing private astronauts to the space station and building out a commercial space station. Intuitive Machines, which made history a couple of weeks ago, landing the first private lander on the surface of the moon.

You've got IBX. You've got X-Energy, which is nuclear reactors, and then Quantum Space. Have I missed anything? You got most of them. Yes. So how do you think about some of these different businesses? I'm not going to, I guess we don't have time to get into the origin stories with you of each of them, but just in terms of the fact that you have started so many companies

and they all seem to be moving us towards this, dare I say, interplanetary future for humanity. Yeah, that's a good question. Maybe the way I can encapsulate everything is, future for humanity? Yeah, that's a good question. Maybe the way I can encapsulate everything is so my family office called IBX and IBX stands for Imagine, Believe, Execute. Imagine a certain future, believe in it, and just go do it, right? And so all the companies sort of fit within that formula and all of them are things that's never been done before.

You know, it's first of a kind. And I'm involved with it because it's hard, not because it's easy. But all of them impact the future of humanity in a very profound way. And that's why I think it's, for me, it's very exciting. And in all of them, there's this common denominator of combining altruism, you know, doing something purposeful and good, and combine it with capitalism to make a positive impact, right? Now, just focusing a little bit further,

the vision for IBX is protecting our home, our planet, right? And then finding new homes in stars. And everything is involved to do that. So on the space side, if we say that the ultimate destiny for humanity is interstellar travel and going to stars, then we need to take care of a lot of intermediary steps to do that. I think that starts with Leo. You know having to me at the end a space city. You know a place in Lord's orbit people can go and live and work and there is artificial gravity and I really like a city where

you can live and there's schools and children and everything else. And then moon, right? So Axiom Space covers the Leo, right, aspects. Intuitive machine, right? Of course, exploration of moon. And I'm just incredibly for a person whose entire life has been a space cadet and doing space exploration. It was such an incredible moment landing on the surface of the moon, feel incredibly honored,

humbled and proud that we were able to do that. It was such an incredible journey and we were recently awarded the LTV, which is another amazing thing in two of the companies that I'm involved with. So incredibly proud of that. And then, you know, Quantum Space is building. LTV is the lunar rover. Yes, lunar train vehicle. Right. train vehicle, right. And quantum space building this thing called QuantumNet, which is a fleet of 40 to 60 satellites

from the Earth orbit all the way to the Moon orbit and beyond. So it's all intermediary steps. And of course X-Energy you mentioned is, if we don't do something in terms of dealing with climate change and

fossil fuel and everything else, I think our humanity, our human race is in danger. So we've developed these advanced nuclear reactors that are 100% safe. But also, since this is a space conference, we're also involved in thermal, nuclear thermal propulsion, electric propulsion, and we're also actually developing as a joint venture I have between Intuitive Machine and X-Energy, a fission surface power and nuclear for the surface of the moon called FSP. So these are all exciting stuff.

But we've got to protect our home. I think that's the only home we know so far. And I founded a nonprofit called Limitless Space Institute three years ago where we're trying to inspire the next generation, actually the 80-year-olds, to see how you go beyond our solar to other stars. And so our three pillars are inspire, educate, and do research and development. So my belief is that the ultimate destiny for humanity is to go to stars. And we've got to do all these intermediary steps. And I put my money where my mouth is with all these different companies to make that happen.

That's interesting because we talk about Elon Musk and his focus to get to Mars. We talk about Jeff Bezos and the focus to get to the moon and to create a, you know, more heavy industry, more tourism, etc. and low Earth orbit as well to help sustain the Earth. You're focused on the stars. It is. I mean the universe, Morgan, is so vast and people when I say this they just sort of get shocked, right mean, in our galaxy alone, there are 400 billion stars. And it's 100,000 light years to go from one point to another. Just sort of imagine 400 billion stars with planets around them. And now if we leave our galaxy, there are 2 trillion other galaxies, two trillion other galaxies two trillion other galaxies

with planets billions of planets and billions of stars in them right so the universe is so vast and there's such a small small part of that and my belief is that the ultimate destiny for humanity to go interstellar and to inspire the kids to do that is incredible. Just this morning I got a picture of a school in Boston where a eight-year-old had done a mini Odie or Odysseus spacecraft, you know a model and so I was so just so just incredibly proud that we impacted a kid to sort of say, hey, I'm going to create a spacecraft.

So those are the people that are going to be able to develop technologies that we're going to be able to go interstellar. But we've got to do all of the intermediate steps. I'm all with Elon and Jeff, both of them my dear friends, to be able to first do the LEO, be able to go to the Moon and Mars, because we've got to do those before we can go interstellar. You mentioned at the beginning of this conversation the combination of altruism and capitalism. So it gets back to the how do you decide where to invest?

How do you decide what the business models are going to be around the companies that you do co-found to get to a self-sustaining model to be able to realize this vision? Yes, so if you create a company that is fantastic and you develop unbelievable technologies but nobody wants to buy it or there's no business case then you have not made any difference. So the idea is how do you create a business model that you are purposeful, you're making a difference, but also combine it with a business model that actually can provide return to the investors in a massive way. I think the space economy is just growing. The whole ecosystem is growing in a massive way. And I think what's happening also with AI and quantum computing is accelerating it.

So not only we're making a difference for everybody on Earth with stuff that we're doing in LEO and beyond, but also we're pushing the envelope in human exploration of other planets and hopefully other stars. When you talk about quantum computing and AI accelerating it, is it a situation where it's accelerating it because we're going to need that infrastructure in space to realize those technologies and their full capabilities, or is it because those technologies are enabling

more breakthroughs on the space side? I believe it's both, but let's focus on the second one for a second. Ability to process much more data, combine AI with robotics for many things that they're going to do, let's say, on Moon and Mars, and even going beyond interstellar. I think these are, if you think of them as unbelievable tools that, you know, pushes us forward. That's the way I look at it. And, you know, you look at it combining it with the space exploration. I think they're an accelerant in terms of going forward. Do you think investors fully appreciate, and I'll say intuitive machines is publicly traded. It was amazing because not only was this lunar lander making history, but you literally had a stock ticker up as it was happening. And investors were reacting to it in real time in the space economy and how close we are to some of these

key milestones that maybe just a couple of years ago were seen as more sci-fi becoming real? That's a great question. And I don't think they quite do appreciate it. But it's very normal. And what I mean by that is, think about search engines and early days of search engines. Did investors appreciate investing? No, it was very difficult. If you think of early days of Amazon, for years, the investors didn't quite appreciate that. Early days of airlines or even Tesla or Apple, right? So when you do things that are new, right? And it's a new ecosystem and something that, you know, is just beginning, it's normal for people to not quite appreciate it. And I think we are in, by the way, the same thing existed in AI. I mean, did people appreciate the AI revolution

10 years ago? Not really, right? And so all of a sudden now we have this herd mentality that everybody is jumping in. I think we're beginning of that space in the space exploration and space ecosystem, space economy, and it's still not there. But my belief is that it's taken off and it's gonna grow rapidly. And I truly believe that they're underestimating the size of the market and how much it can grow. How much do you

think it can grow? Do you have like a number in your head? Many trillions. I really believe that. I mean you know just think about Leo for a second because that's sort of the closest to Earth. A new economy can be developed in LEO that cannot be done on Earth. I mean, things that you can do in microgravity, like bioprinting, printing corneas and retinas, or a revolution in pharmaceuticals, or manufacturing fiber optics that can carry infrared signals that you cannot create on Earth. I mean, that by itself, it's going to be a huge market. When I sort of think about like SpaceX, great company. We are one of their largest customers overall, my portfolio companies. But it's an awesome company and what they've done in terms of revolutionized transportation

to space. But Starlink has created this incredible economic growth for the company. So sometimes it's not the early things that you do, it's sort of tangential stuff that develops as a result of the early things you've done. So we're building the first private commercial space station, right, Axiom Space Station, and we're launching our first module in 2026. But if you can do all of this manufacturing stuff, in addition to selling services to NASA and other government agencies

and the whole international business is growing, I mean, when you put all of that together, it's just an incredible market. And once people realize all of that, I think that the business is gonna take off. I'll end with this. The day before something amazing, a new innovation happens, everybody thinks it's a crazy idea. You know what I mean?

I mean, you got the iPhone that you have before we saw the iPhone for first time we didn't think that wow this is the market that is going to create with personal digital devices and look what's happened and I think something like that like search engine or like iPhones and things like that it's what is gonna happen space and I think it's going to provide incredible return to the investors. When you look across your portfolio and you think about your big vision, is there anything capability-wise, technology-wise that you feel like you still need to add? Oh, definitely.

I think we're not living in a static world. We live in a very dynamic world. Things are changing all the time. And you need to be adaptive and see what's happening and what's out there and adopt those new technologies as you go forward. So for sure, I mean, we're constantly looking how we can do things better. I mean, just landing on the moon it was incredible thing and we're learning all the lessons from IM1 and now we're applying all of it in

you know our IM2 mission later this year which is super exciting and IM3 later and hopefully our Nova D where we can carry you know a larger mass to space. And the same thing with space station, with Axiom Space and Quantum Space. We're constantly learning and getting better. And I think that's the key to success. I say this, that staying in sync with technologies like going upward in a downward escalator,

that if you stop, you're going down. So you've got to constantly move with it. I want to go back to nuclear reactors for a moment here. Sure. Because what you said was pretty incredible, and that's the fact that you've created and designed these completely safe nuclear reactors. I mean, given the fact that you've created and designed these completely safe nuclear reactors.

I mean, given the fact that nuclear is back in focus from an energy standpoint, given geopolitical landscape as well, what does that mean? What does that entail? Have countries and companies caught on to this capability when safety concerns, whether right or wrong are still something that linger in the narrative? Yeah so you know you know I'm a space cadet and all the stuff that I'm involved in space but I think one of the thing that we really got to do is figure out how we protect our home until we

find new homes in stars right and and so how do we do that? And I say this, and maybe it's not politically correct, but I think the entire humankind, we're sort of going to edge of a cliff, like a drunken sailor not recognizing it in everything that's happening. What scientists said 20 years ago, and what they said 10 years ago, they've been dead on in terms of what's happening, temperature risings, the hurricanes, the fires, the droughts,

all of that stuff happening and accelerating. So they've been dead on, and I think they're dead on today what they're saying about the future. So then the question is, well, how do we solve that problem? Renewables are awesome, the solar and wind and everything else, but the amount of energy that's needed to just satisfy the population growth, as well as the energy needs per capita, and then on top of that, when you add AI and data centers need, it is mind blowing. I mean, the amount of energy that is required for data centers the next 10 years is mind

blowing. I mean, it's many, many gigawatts. I heard numbers that the amount of energy needed to maybe satisfy two massive data centers or maybe more of them is more than the total energy need of the United States as a country. I mean, can you just sort of fathom how much energy is needed? And so I believe the answer is advanced nuclear because these are, they provide steady energy and I think the holy grail in nuclear is safety. And the nuclear reactors we design, 100% proven, so it's completely de-risked.

In fact, there are ones in the world that today are operating with that technology that we have. So you can actually have one of our nuclear reactors in the middle of a data center or middle of a city and requires a lot less footprint. And in fact you can carry the modules in a back of a truck or back of a train. So it's truly revolutionary. And the good news is that I think the consciousness is changing, especially politically. Both sides of the aisles are on board with advanced nuclear. But the reason I got into it, because I think that's the solution for us in long term.

It's safe. It's clean. It's affordable, it's secure. And that's why I'm into it. And we are world leader in advanced nuclear at Xenergy. Cam Ghaffarian, thank you so much for joining me. My pleasure. Thank you. That does it for this episode of Manifest Space. Make sure you never miss a launch by following us wherever you get your podcasts and by watching our coverage on Closing Bell Overtime. I'm Morgan Brennan.