Club Shay Shay - Charles Oakley

Episode Date: March 14, 2022

Shannon welcomes in his friend, 19-year NBA veteran, All-Star, chef, actor, author, business owner, and author of ‘The Last Enforcer’: Charles Oakley.Listen & subscribe to more FOX Sports podcasts: http://sprtspod.fox/applepodcasts#DoSomethinB4TwoSomethin & Follow Club Shay Shay:                                                                 https://www.instagram.com/clubshayshayhttps://twitter.com/clubshayshayhttps://www.facebook.com/clubshayshayhttps://www.youtube.com/c/clubshayshay Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news and the best analysis delivered by the time you get your coffee. The show hits every single game every single week, but I can't do it alone. So I'm bringing in all the big guns from NFL media like Colleen Wolf. Subscribe today and you'll immediately be smarter and funnier than your friends. Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, I am joined by the greatest alpine skier of all time,

Michaela Schifrin. Michaela talks about the ski accident that changed everything for her, performing while going through grief, and what it's like to release the pressure of being the GOAT, and so much more. Like, I have no right to be winning this race. I really probably shouldn't even be doing it, but I'm here, so I will win. Listen to this episode of Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I got X amount of dollars for a celebrity boxing match. Who you want? Who you want your opponent to be? First one is Shaq, Barkley, them two. Oh, you want Shaq? You want a celebrity boxing match with Shaq? Yeah, I'll take it. I know he's about 75 pounds heavy, but I'll take him. Hello, welcome to another edition of Club Shea Shea.

I am your host, Shannon Sharp. I'm also the proprietor of Club Shea Shea, and the guy that's stopping by for a drink and conversation today is a very close and personal friend of mine. He's a 19-year NBA vet. He's an all-star. He's a first-team all-defensive player. He's a chef, an actor, an author, a business owner, and he's an all-star. He's a first-team all-defensive player. He's a chef, an actor,

an author, a business owner, and he's the last enforcer. Please welcome Charles Oakley. Oak Tree, how you doing? I'm good, man. Thanks for having me on the show. I know I've been waiting. Okay, we talked about this. You wrote the book, The Last Enforcer, Outrageous Stories from the Life and Times of One of the NBA's fiercest competitors. Why did you decide to write a book and why now? Well, I mean, I've been, over the last 10 years, I've been deciding, you know, something that, you know, you're doing a lot of podcasts, you're doing a lot of interviews,

you're doing a lot of talking and people, you know, hear a lot about you, a lot of stirs, your journey, your life. I went to see my grandfather in Alabama for a long time who I got a lot of my ways from just being a humble guy, a guy who liked to give, a guy who put a lot of work into whatever you do. And I just figured it was time for me to just get this story out,

let everybody see the book, stages of life. And I figured it's a good time now. It's a pandemic. People want just a home. They won't need stuff to do, so they can get this book and really just see my consistency on my life in the NBA, after my career, what I do in the inner city, get back to the kids, get back to whoever I can help out, foundation, all kind of ways.

So this book will tell you all of my steps I'm doing right now. And the people can really just say, this is a hell of a story of what Oak doing, not just off the court. In this book, the structure, my guy Frank, who wrote it, just lay it all out. You set the record straight on a lot of stories, from the punching, the slapping of Charles Barkley, to almost getting in a fight with Judge Mathis. And so we're going to get to those stories. Michael Jordan, who's a very close personal friend of yours, he arrived in Chicago a year earlier than you got there. Right.

What did it mean to you to have him write the four? It meant a lot. There's surely a relationship over the years, and we still friends, even though we don't hang out like we used to. Right. But it's just the love for one another. And when I called and asked him, he didn't question me.

He said, I'll have it to you in three or four days. He never asked for a copy of the book because he trusted me and he know I've been there for him. I'm not going to let him down now because of the book. He wrote, when you're going through a tough situation, it always helps to have some protection,

to have someone you can count on by your side to have your back. For me, in the game of basketball, that was Charles Oakley. What does it mean to have him say that? In a tough situation, when I needed someone to have my back, I needed someone to stand beside me in the game of basketball, I knew I could count on Oak. Probably because when I got there, you know, being a rookie and what I was doing and showing the veterans that I'm a guy who's going to do my job,

be on time, you can hold me accountable. This situation happened. I was around him a couple times. I still, as a young guy, didn't worry about the veterans trying to, you know, use their force on me. And it just grew from there. And we've been in many places, and I stay in my place, never try to, you know, show I'm better than someone or better than him. I just, you know, I just learn how to play a role.

That's my whole thing in this book is learn how to play a role on the court and off the court. Scottie Pippen just came out with a book, and obviously, and we thought from just watching it from a distance, that Scotty and Mike was very close. But knowing what we know now, had Scotty reached out to Mike and asked him to write the foreword,

Mike probably would have hung up the phone or said, hell no. What transpired? How did we get here? You win six championships. You're the greatest duo ever. How did we get from winning six championships being Batman and Robin

to adversary? Wow. Hey, great question. But you know, in sports, there's a lot of guys who play together for a lot of years. They don't play for the friendship. They play for the win of the championship and love the game. Right. So we're seeing this playing out a lot of ways

that Magic, Kareem, maybe Shaq and Kobe, now Scott and Michael, and a few other guys. Yeah, they didn't get along, but they played together. They won championships together. Right. So I think in the last dance, I talk about this, but Jerry Kowals, you know, I think I give him a lot of credit because he drafted me being biased.

But I think he did a lot of work to put that team together. But for Mike and Scottie, I think it's something else besides the last end because, yeah, Scottie, you know, they didn't give him a lot of headlines like they did Dennis Rodman or Curry. But I think Mike couldn't have won without Scottie. He didn't say that many times, but I think Scottie, you know, whatever you say, got to live with it. And some things he said and, you know, things he did, like, you know,

he, when he didn't want to go back in the game, he took a, he got hurt. He didn't take the, that summer to try to recover from his surgery. He waited until the season started. So people can point some fingers at him like, why all this now? But that's life. Whatever you say, he just got a little bit. I know that he's saying he was better than Mike. But here's a quote from Pippen's book.

He says, I may go as far as to say mike ruined ruined basketball kids wanted to be like mike well mike didn't want to pass didn't want to rebound or defend the best player he wanted everything done for him i mean look obviously you mentioned some of the players that played together won a championship together that were best friends i don't know if any have gone as far as him to try to discredit what Mike has actually done. Now, but you can understand, Oak, before you answer, you can understand why Pip got upset. He says, okay, you're doing the last dance. You add a part to the last dance that you weren't even part of the team. In 1994, you were playing baseball.

So why would you bring me at my lowest moment into that situation? Well, when I was always talking to Mike, you know, after every Sunday, and we talked on Monday, his thing was they shouldn't have did it. I mean, and I'm saying, like, Mike, who's going to turn you down? You the goal of basketball, as we see. But, I mean, Scottie, you know, Scottie, he felt hurt by the last dance. Yes. Because, you know, like I said, I mean, I looked at it, you know,

like, yeah, they did pump Dennis Rodman up a lot. I mean, like you said, Batman and Robin. And so, Dennis Rodman, he was a great third wheel. But I think Scottie maybe should have got more play in a positive way. But like you said, Mike had the more control. He had his ball right there.

So he was feeling good. And Scottie, I think Scottie can't win the argument. He's better than Michael. He said that a lot of times. He's better than Michael, but he can always

have a point of view about what he feel about what happened and how things happen. He had that a lot of times. He's better than Michael, but he can always have a point of view about what he feels about what happened and how things happened. He had to live with that. Yeah, because if you look at it, two of the most prominent features of Scottie Pippen was refusing to go into the game

and he wouldn't have surgery leading up to that. I think it was the last season or second to the last season before this thing fell apart. So that's two negative portrayals of Scottie Pippen in something that was supposed to be positive. And so he's looking at it like, hold on, one of those times you weren't there and you're calling me selfish

because I'm trying to get my money and I feel this is the only way I can go about it and get it, put some pressure on them to give me my money. Well, number one, they weren't going to get more money because Scotty should have known that Jerry Ronson wouldn't tear up Michael Jordan's contract. They definitely weren't going to tear up Scotty's. Correct.

So that was the law's cause. But I think Scotty said he wanted to finance, you know, because his back was, you know, he had back problems. So that's why he signed it. But that's when it come back to Jerry Crowther. They blamed Jerry for some things, but Jerry had no power. Jerry was escaping. Yes.

Yes. My thing is, I know it got ugly, you know, because Scottie wrote his own book. We'll tell his side of the story. But I think it's safe. I said the other day on TV, I don't think they'll never be friends again. No. I think the thing, you know what I think what really hurt,

not only the portrayal, not only not going in in 1994, I think the fact that when Michael said Scotty was being selfish. You could portray that, but he had never, I don't think he had ever heard Mike utter those words, Scotty is being selfish. I think that really cut him deep. Well, yes. I mean, that's tough

to say. I mean, some people say, you know, they can say what they want to say. So then Scotty came back and said Mike was selfish because he retired on them. He left them hanging when he went to play baseball. So both of them got questions and answers and whatever.

But it's hard to say you're better than the best player of basketball and you ain't ranked in the top 25 in scoring. Right. A great point. When you got, when you first, in 1995, when you arrived there, Mike had took, 85, excuse me, 85. Mike had taken the league by storm. We had never seen a guy this young, be so acrobatic, fly through the air.

He was doing 28 points a game. So when you get there, you understand what your role is and what you're going to need to do to play alongside Mike. What was the first thing that you thought when you saw Michael Jordan? Wow. I mean, I'd seen him, you know, like I said, came in a year before I did. And my college coach, I knew Dean Smith, his coach, and he was telling me about Michael. You know, Dean Smith didn't let the cat out the bag. He kept him in the house, but when he got to the league, he got out of the bag.

So when I first met him in August, because he was, you know, in the summertime he would have been running this and that. So he slowed down around August and come back to Chicago. So when I met him, we was playing pickup ball and this and that. You know, he greeted me when I first saw him. I used to greet him. But I think he saw me in the pickup game. I played the same way I play on the court,

so he probably was like, wow, this guy got some force with him, because I didn't just play just to be playing. I played with a purpose, let people know, they got to feel me at all times, but once that happened, training camp, we got to be a little closer.

It was a road trip, and the veterans back then, everybody was a little closer. It was a road trip. And, you know, the veterans back then, everybody was a little, you know, a little edgy. And a couple of guys was like, you know, in practice the day before, we had this practice, a couple of guys, and he

got into it a little bit in practice. And it carried over until we was in Seattle. And guys got to the dinner table. We was sitting there talking and this and that. And then the guys were still, you know, talking, this and that. And I think that when the check came and they had one check, and Mike like, okay, what is this? So all the guys went, oh, you made the all-star team last year.

Did you get the check? He said, no. You get paid. You get paid. You get paid. You get paid. Now go in your pocket and pay this check. Okay. So after this, you know, my attention started.

He's like, okay, look out for your guys. But it was kind of – it was a lot of attention in Chicago. You know, a lot of guys coming to practice, can't make it to the game because they was messing with that stuff. Right. He mentioned that in his book. And a lot of people took offense to it, but he was telling the truth. Yeah, he mentioned that in the last dance.

Like, when he first got there, he goes in some bench room, and he sees powder, he sees alcohol, he sees weed, he sees women, and he's like, I've never been exposed to anything like this. How are we going to win basketball game if y'all doing this before the game? Yep. I've seen some of it too. But like I said, my rookie year, I've seen a little of that. But then my second, third year, they started clearing them guys out.

Well, they started clearing stuff out. Stuff starts coming back. And Mike started getting more of Mike and more control of what the situation was. At first, it was all over everywhere. Right. You mentioned that Mike had saw in a pickup game, Mike had come back to Chicago and you're playing pickup ball.

He's watching you play. Do you think him watching you play, seeing your physicality, seeing your toughness, kind of rubbed off on him? Well, good question. I don't know if it rubbed off then, but he knew that he had somebody he probably if something happened, he had

somebody he probably knew he had his back, but I think later on in my career, you know, my second, you know, not the first, but the second and third that, wow, this guy's really what I saw in that training, you know, working out that summer, but he saw my consistency that I'm here to stay or whatever.

I'm not taking no trash. So, and I think that it did rub off on him because I seen him, like I said, he wasn't outgoing like he was late on in his career. But I can see he can pick up some of my attendees from where he playing and what he's doing on the court and what he's doing around the guys right so what you're like okay going into a game and you know how guys are so you mentioned that the check comes around you guys at dinner in seattle the check comes around and they're looking at mike okay bro you getting all the attention you making the money you air you got the sneakers bro pick up the tail so do you feel that some of his own teammates have started to be resentful,

started to be jealous of Mike, of the attention and notoriety that he was starting to get? Well, it started in the All-Star game with Isaiah, Magic, George, Gary, and all of them. But like I said, them guys was in the league two or three years before Mike, and a lot of them was more cool. So the word got around.

Right. And, you know, we had Atlanta, Woogers. We had Quinn Daly. Big O. We. So the word got around. Right. And, you know, we had Atlanta Warriors. We had Quinn Daly. Big O. We had three guys to score. Right. So the ball, you know, when you got three or four guys to score, there was so many shots left over.

The competition was they were trying to outdo him. He was the clever one. You know, he was just so good. It just came natural. So they ended up getting them out of there. That's all they had. And building their team, and you see what happened later on once they built, Jerry Krause built their team.

They won six championships. You mention in your book, and I've read the book, and it's a very good read. Like I said, some of the things, having known you for almost 30 years, some of the things I knew because you and I have shared in private, and some of the things that I didn't know. You mentioned that there was a trade. They

traded, I forget who they traded, but they broke the team, but one of his close friends, Higgins, Rod Higgins, I think that's who it was. Rod Higgins. They traded Rod Higgins, and they traded for George Gervin. And when Iceman got there, first of all, Mike was not fond of the trade because he and Rod Higgins were very cool.

He also wasn't fond because you mentioned that George Gervin, Magic, Isaiah, although Isaiah is the one that gets most of the blame for freezing Jordan at the All-Star game, you mentioned it was several other guys also that played a role that didn't get the criticism or the backlash that Isaiah got. What was it about Ice that kind of rubbed Jordan the wrong way? I mean, you're bringing a veteran in there, and like I said, all that was an all-star game years, you know, a couple years before that. So my thing is, Mike, like, why are you bringing this guy in?

You know, I know Mike ended up getting hurt that year and then came back to the playoff. But when Mike came back, you know, George Goodwin went to the bench. But I know they didn't know what was really going on between them guys and All-Star and Mike. Right. But it came out that that would happen. But Isaiah was the main leader.

Right. But they didn't want Jordan to take all the fame. They was in the league two or three years. And you see what was happening. This guy's a rookie, make the all-star team and do what he was doing. Right.

Oh, yeah. They was afraid. And he did take over. He did take over. Okay, let's go back to the beginning. You was born in Cleveland. I was born in Chicago.

You went down to live with your grandparents and rule Alabama. Is there any big parts of Alabama? All of it's rural, if you ask me. But you went to live with your grandparents because, if I'm not mistaken, you got nine brothers and sisters, correct? No, six of us.

Six of us. Excuse me. Six. You got six brothers and sisters. And your mom sent you and one of your sisters to Alabama until she can get better on her feet so she can have a bigger place so all of you guys can be together. So you go down

to Alabama. You get down there. What's the first thought that goes through your mind? Hey, I'm still with family. See, it wasn't just we went down there. I already had, like my grandfather was, you know, he was the man of the town or whatever you want to call it,

but I have other aunts and other cousins down there. But my grandmother and grandfather, they had a house. They had three rooms. And before I left that, my grandfather had three more rooms. But, no, it was other family members there, too. So we were taken care of in all kind of ways. Right. But my grandfather was in the field, the church.

Yeah. The man who would take people to town. Yeah. So, you know, we watched him every day. We watched his craft and what he was doing. It was amazing. And I had a good time because I was still around my family, you know. And I couldn't tell what was going on because I was a kid.

Right. But, you know, I have no regret because they treated me just like I was one of the kids down there. That's the best part about it because I was raised by my grandparents in rural South Georgia. And you're right. You got a big extended family. A lot of first cousins, a lot of second cousins.

They come over. We playing football, playing basketball, playing tag, playing chase. So we having us a good old time and it and watching my grandfather work in the field and to see the discipline and the dedication it let me knew oh that's not what i wanted to do you doing all this hard work 15 hours a day and we ain't barely got anything to show for it i was like nah this ain't for me yeah exactly right because uh and exactly right. And that's how he did until when he left here. He was

working still because that's all he knew. Right. How to get back and make sure everybody was okay around him. And I was able to get away once in Chicago for one day to go to his service and be back. Back then you get one day and come back. Now they get

two months. Yeah. They call it bereavement. Take time. you get one day and come back. Now they get two months. They call it bereavement. They call it bereavement leave. You take as much time as you need, but you're right. You got a day and a half to get there and get back. The old school, because you're a couple of years older than I am. In that situation, old people didn't

play. There was no BSing around. My grandfather used to tell my brother and I, don't make me chew my food twice. What he was saying, don't make me repeat myself. So he'd tell you something one time, that was it. That's it. Hey, when you read the book, you see the story I said, my grandfather knocked the mule out.

So he told the mule, when he said get up, that means move. And he said it twice. Two-star, he knocked the mule out. I know he didn't turn the crop on that day, but he got a four to throw. That's how the mule, they say the mule, you had to tell him G and Hock because my grandfather had mules also. Grew up on the farm a lot like your family. So did you work in the fields?

Did you do any work in the fields? Oh, yeah, I worked in the field. So sometimes he had a wagon, so that mule got a lot of work. So we had to go up the road about two or three miles. Right. So when we get up the road, you got the white fence. You know what the white fence means. We got to throw the hay, feed the cows, feed the horses.

Right. So we used to do that. And then we would come back down the road. We'd do it like two days a week. When we we come back down the road. We do it like two days a week. When we come back down the road, we have an auntie. My grandfather would never go past when he go down, he'll never stop. On the way back, he gonna stop until

it get dark. And then once it get dark, he gonna leave and come back home. But every time, that's the one who made the tea cakes. You know what I'm saying? They made them tea cakes. They taste good. Oh, yeah. You gotta get a hot dog. I think my great aunt,

I think she would put some snuff in it. They don't know anything about snuff. I know about snuff. My grandfather used to, my grandmother dipped Blue Navel. My grandmother that raised me dipped Honey Bee. Oh, man.

Hey, them tea cakes, they look just like peanut butter cakes, but them tea cakes will have a different kick to them. I'm reading your story here. You said you picked cucumbers loaded with tomatoes. Did you do like, did you bale hay? Did they have

tobacco, peanuts? I did worse. I picked cotton. Oh, I picked cotton. I was about, I was picking cotton. So,

basically, you know, your grandparents, all of them at work, we, we either, you get a ride about eight miles away from the house,

the father-in-law doesn't know you, but by the time you walk back, it'd be time for dinner. So, if you didn't come back with something in your hand, you ain't eating dinner. So, it didn't drop as long. We had no choice. We had to pick the cart. You know how I like cartwood.

Maybe you have about three bags. You don't have two pounds. Exactly. If you have three bags, you at least got $60. You got about $3.50. But that was fun, though. What did working in those fields, that manual, hard, grueling labor, because

you're going out there, it's early. We call it can't to can't. When you went out there, you couldn't see in the morning, and when you got done, you couldn't see at night. What did that teach Charles Oakley that what did it teach you about work, hard work, discipline, dedication, determination?

It taught me everything. It taught me everything because the day that you had to do it, you couldn't come in and eat, and I wanted to eat. And it just gave me some discipline in my life that no matter what you do and where you go, work gonna be involved. You got to do it to get to the next point. Yeah, hard work too. That's what I talk about in the book. A lot of work, a lot of consistency. You got to be consistent too, you know?

Oh, you know what? You and I, like I said, we've known each other for such a long time. You're a provider. Because what happens is that you grow up and you see how hard your grandparents are working and you say, you know what? I got to make sure I take care of a lot of people.

So you get at an early age, I remember making $25 a week. I would take $10 and give to my grandmother. Well, you can buy something. You can pay for something. And as I got older, it gave me a sense of pride that man, here I am eight, nine, 10 years old and I'm helping my grandmother with bills.

Yeah. Well, you know, like I am, 8, 9, 10 years old, and I'm helping my grandmother with bills. Well, you know, like I said, I was going back and forth, but as I grew into the NBA, my high school, I got a summer job. Right. You know, minimum wage job for the summertime, doing this and that, two months of summer. But once I got

into the league, college, I had a little job, but once I got to the league, my first thing I did was, you know, you always take care of your mother, your aunts, and your every time I go down south or whatever, somebody who helped me raise me, I always try to give them something. You know what I'm saying? Take them a picture,

go in town, buy them wilder metals, give them a couple hundred dollars, five hundred dollars. So I spoil my aunts and people who raise me. Yes. And to this day, I'm, every time I go there, I'm giving something

and, you know, to help the kids go to college down there, other cousins coming up. And that's what you're supposed to do. I mean,

to a point, you know, now, when they start asking for something three or four times, you gotta, you know,

you gotta take a break. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, but, basically, I did that early. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but basically, I did that early. I said, like, when I got into the league, I said, you know what? I came home, my sister and brother, you know, I take care of them every Christmas, every summer. Right. But you know what?

I'm going to lay the law down. You got to, O. Remember what you're getting. Don't spend all the one plays. You know, you go to the bank, and your money getting low, you got to adjust or have to adjust. So, careful what you do with it. Now, do you want me to give you a little month,

or you want it twice a year? So, you know, you got to just make some rules and get a little with it. And, you know, a lot of friends in the streets, just went to school with me. I still have to tell them. That's why I said, I ain't changing my number. My number been the same 37 years. Either yes or no.

I ain't going to send you to the voicemail. I'm going to answer the phone. Right. You know, that's how I operate. That's how I am, Oka. I used to go back home and all the homies to be standing on the corner. I go get pizza. I go get beer.

We eat pizza. I sit there and talk with them. They get ready to go do something fire. They're like, hey, Sharp, we about to go make a move, man. You go ahead and move up out of here. That was telling me, okay, hey, you out. We want you to stay out, but we still going to do what we do. We appreciate you not changing who you are. You still Shannon from Glenville and you still treat us the same. And so for me, that meant a lot to me that they still thought enough of me to keep me out of harm's way.

Oh, yeah. I had a lot of friends the same way. Well, my brother was, you know, was the big guy in Cleveland, this and that, and a lot of family members. I had an uncle who had like seven gas stations, but we still had to do our own thing, get your own money, do this and that.

But my brother, you know, carried a lot of weight, so a lot of weight so a lot of people know how we roll as a family we don't take no mess my brother didn't take no mess i didn't take no mess and my grandpa definitely mess right i gotta understand today excuse me it is what it is you know we just i mean we we figured it out and like i said mom's still living you know my parents went early age but we still got a lot of family members and um I try to go like I say it's been a bad time in the last couple

years with the pandemic but life they stand healthy and stand strong as a kid what was your favorite sport growing up um football I was football. I love football. You know, down south, you say you got a basketball, you got a rock, and you got a football. So we were playing on concrete with football. Yeah. Three on three, two on two. And that's what we did, you know. Like I said, we kept acting, you know.

Then, you know, in the swamp, we go to the swamp. My cousin had a car. We get a two-by-four. That'd be the diving board. They jump in the water. My cousin had a car. We get a two-by-four. That'd be the diving board. They jump in the water. So we had fun. I mean, in the South, you got to have fun.

Unless you're just something wrong with the person. Yeah. It ain't like you going to the mall. Huh? You're not getting in no car going to the mall in the South. No. You better find something to do out there. Hey, when you go to town, when you go to town, boy, you be like, man,

about two miles after you leave town, it start getting dark, you know you're going back to the woods. Oh, boy, I can tell you from the country because that's what we call it. Oh, who want to go uptown? What position did you play in football? I played defensive end. I played peewee ball. I came from Alabama to play peewee ball. And then in high school, I played defensive end and tight end.

But I mean, I had more scholarships, probably the same in football and basketball. I chose to play basketball. Tim McGee played high school. We went to Cincinnati Bingo for like 10 years. We played on the same team. Andrew Hancock went to my school. John Hicks went to my basketball. Tim McGee played high school. He went to Cincinnati Bingo for like 10 years. We played on the same team. Anthony Hancock went to my school.

John Hicks went to my school. We had a lot of football pros come out of there. Right. So is that where your mentality come from in basketball? Because you play basketball like football.

You be sitting here. You sit hard, bitch. I told everybody the same. Pat Brown had a rule. The whistle don't blow, keep playing. The ball can still be out of the balance, but keep playing.. If the whistle don't blow, keep playing. The ball can still be out of the balance, but keep playing. If you don't hear a whistle, keep playing. Now, I got something that's tough and different from football and my grandfather.

But football, we used to do that monkey roll. You know, when it rain? Yeah. And they make this monkey roll. I don't think they do that anymore. I don't think they make them do that anymore. They don't do monkey roll no more? Nah, they don't do monkey roll. They don't make they do that anymore. I don't think they make them do that anymore. They don't do monkey rolls. Nah, they don't do monkey rolls.

They don't make them do Oklahoma. Yeah, but I'm just saying, but we was doing that at high school. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It was like, you know how the pigs, you know how the pigs outside used to be in the mud? Yeah. That's how we was doing them.

Jumping over one another. It was going to make you tough. Oh, yeah. You know? Yeah. That's how we were doing them. Jumped over one another. It was going to make you tough. Oh, yeah. You know? Yeah. I don't know what they're doing. They need to show it to the NBA players these days because they, you know, a little soft and soft.

You chose to go to Virginia. You said you want to get out of Cleveland. Right. A lot of crime. At that point in time, when you were coming out of high school, one of the highest murder rates in the U.S., you saw a man get shot four times trying to rob a – trying to hit – basically trying to hit a leak.

Trying to hit a leak. He was going to get stuck anyway the next day, but the guys in there didn't play. I don't know what happened. I guess he woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Yeah, I just – I went down to the school in Virginia doing a history of black college. I had a ball for four years.

I went away. I only came home one time, Shannon, in four years. Really? I just wanted to get out of Cleveland. Yeah, one time in four years. I wasn't homesick or nothing. I was used to being away. But it was a lot of crying.

A lot of my guys was getting in trouble, going to jails. And to this day, some of them just not coming home the last four or five years. They've been 20-something years in jails. It's just crazy. But I made it out. But, you know, it was tough. But I hung in there. Like I said, I knew how to survive because I'd been around my grandfather.

I got a little job. But the craziest story was I was hanging with my brother once I got a little older. Like you said, when I seen the guy who shot, it was like, it was just crazy because the week before I was with my brother in a place, something similar to that, but I'm with my brother, you know, and I'm going to try them. But these guys stay around the corner from me in Cleveland. And I was just going to go around there and, you know, take a thousand. You know, we had made a lick and I was going to take a thousand dollars right there and try my luck.

I walked in the house and, you know, knocked, we had made a lick and I was going to take $1,000 right there and try my luck. I walked in the house and they, you know, come on in. I never got a chance to even get in the dice. It was a dice game. And this guy robbed it. And, you know, I didn't know him, but the other six guys in the house knew him. So I would just stand by, you know, them houses in the old days, you know,

at them choppy basements. So I was just leaning back on the pole and I couldn't believe that he was trying to rob the game. And next thing I know, one of those guys who knew my brother hit him about four times, and I just got on out of there. I never got in the game. Oh. It was crazy because, you know, I'm like, wow.

Right. It was just crazy. But, you know, you always have to be careful of a cash game. You always have to look for somebody trying to lay it down. You playing dice, you playing cards. Anywhere there's money, somebody looking to hit a lick. But that was just, they said, they don't know why the guy did it. Like I said, everybody knew him, but another time I was about 13.

He got desperate. He probably was on that sauce. You know that sauce make you do things, though. Yeah, you could have been sauce with my thing, because when I walked in the basement, he was on the dice for about 20 minutes. So he hit about three numbers. So it could have been the money.

I don't know. So he might have had it in his mind anyway before he even made the points. So one time I was in the playground, I was about 13. And it's a crazy story here. I was about 13. So it's four courts. And one I was about 13, so it's, you know, it's four courts and one in the court,

like on Friday, guys, you know, they get their check and go cast their check. They come back with them 40s and have their wine and have some Old Englands. So about four or five of them were shooting dice. And this guy was named, it was Rero, I think. And he came in the bus yard. I'm looking, I see a guy with a switch. This guy robbed the crap gang with a switch.

What? Nobody was running or nothing. Yeah. But this was one of them guys, though I guess he didn't have a thing with him, but he had a switch. Nobody even tried to run or nothing. Because if they would have ran away, he would have seen them sooner or later. So they just said, we'll just take this log. So I went home and told my brother. He didn't mess with you. I was like, no, I'll just take this log. So I went home and told my brother. He said, he messed with you today. I was like, no, I'm good. He said, forget them. It was just crazy seeing somebody take these guys' money with a switch.

Hold on. A switch that you guys whipped like your granny? Yeah. Yeah. Off the tree. I'm like, man, oh, man. Them some soft guys. But it was just how it was when I was growing up.

They were doing stuff like that. But, oh, here's the thing. You go to Virginia Union, which is in Richmond. Richmond at the time had a very high crime rate also. So you felt safer in Richmond than you did Cleveland? No, I didn't feel safer, but I was just on campus. But my first week there, I got in tune with the guys off campus. So my first week, you know how it is some guys off campus. So, my first

week, you know how it is. You come in two or three days, all the freshmen go here and there. Now that Friday night, they got a place called Henderson Center. So, you go from maybe 8 to 11, all the students go there, you know, just meet and greet. So, some kind of way, some guys

from campus snuck in there. From off campus. Like I said, from Richmond, campus snuck in there. From off campus. Like I said, from Richmond, they snuck in there because my school, Richmond, it wasn't gated or nothing. It was, as you can see, walk on campus, shortcut to the school, anything. So it was kind of bad in a way. But anyway, something happened to one of the guys at school. So we just had met.

And, you know, at school, you know, everybody hang together. Yes. So one thing led to another guy getting to guy get into another guy about three or four of them so we all surround them and we get into it with them so the word was when the guys on the basketball team knew the guys and they said who's the tall guy and they said we'll tell him he better not come to the football game tomorrow i I'm like, I'm on campus. I mean, if something happens to me on campus, it's going to happen. So it got a little out of hand. There was some bangers, but my guy on the team ended up straightening it out.

But still, though, it could have been a problem, you know? Right. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news, previews, recaps, and analysis delivered straight to your podcast feed by the time you get your coffee. No dumb hot takes here, just smart hot takes.

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Subscribe today and you'll immediately be smarter and funnier than your friends. And who doesn't want that? Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay. Yeah. There's a game. Virginia Union, Fairville State. I think you wrote the book that you wrote out of Fairville State.

We used to play Fairville State, so I know what Fairville, North Carolina is. It's a good little drive from Richmond, though. So you drive down to the game. You and the homeboy. The football team get to fighting. You're in the stands. You come out in the stands and go on the field and start wiling out with them. Are you out your mind?

No, I was swinging. Hell, I was swinging. They couldn't believe it. That's a big story, too. Hey, we got swinging. They couldn't believe it. That's a big story, too. They was, hey, we got it. They couldn't believe it. But that's same. That was just love.

That's what I'm known for. If you going, I'm with you. I got to go with you. They couldn't believe it. Let me tell you another story, too, Shannon. You're going to trip out. So I had to do a deposition in Vegas because, you know, I got into the security guards up there, right?

Yeah. They got me in the room, asked me all these questions. Guess what they asked me? What they asked? So what happened around the field in Fairfield in college? How y'all know that? I swear to God. How y'all know that?

I couldn't believe they asked me that question, man. A deposition, man. It was crazy, though. But it happened. It was fun, though. I had a good time. Oh, you talking about if I'm with you, I'm with you. But you weren't with me if you was in the stands.

That was a football team. I was with them, though. I drove down there. I was with them. Hey, on that jersey, it said, B-U-U. And I went to B-U-U. Everything Virginia Union. Everything Virginia Union. That's what we do. If anybody want to union,U-U. Everything Virginia Union. Everything Virginia Union.

That's what we do. If anybody went to the Union, that's what we do. Norfolk got the same thing in the basketball game. They had a ride at Norfolk State. A couple guys got stumped down there. I ran back out of the locker room. The coach tried to grab me. I ran back out there.

They couldn't hold me back. It was crazy. They stumped one of our guys so we had to get them, I ran back out there. They couldn't hold me back. It was crazy. They stopped with our guys, so we had to get them back. Playing basketball or not. You tell the story of that. You're in Richmond, and you see Moses Malone, who comes back in a Rolls Royce. Yes.

So I'm in the college. You know, Moses Malone from Peterborough, Virginia. And, you know, Mo, Woodham, he come up in a Rolls Royce. Well, okay. I heard, well, Virginia. And you know, Mo, Woodham, he come up in the Rolls Royce. Well, okay, I heard, well, okay. You know, my kind of roommate was telling, oh, okay, what's up, what's up? So he go give me, yeah, I'm Mo Malone. I'm from Petersburg, Virginia. So ever since then, me and Mo been cool.

Mo Malone come looking for you, hey, that's a good thing. Yeah, that's a very good thing. He came to show me the love, and he didn't have to. Right. I'm just glad he, because my name was out there when I was in the union because I was, you know,

I was giving him the business, but it was a small school. Right. But Moses Malone would drive on campus to Rosewood and send me. Oh, man, I love, hey,

I love Moses to this day. Rest in peace, Moses. Let me ask you this. When did you realize that, you know what, I'm at a small school, but hell, I can play in the NBA. I can do it. Well, you know what, I'm at a small school, but, hell, I can play in the NBA.

I can do it. Well, in this book. My thing is I didn't look at school like that. I was just having fun. You know, my junior year, yeah, I had a good number. My last year I had like 24 and 17. And they said, well, we're going to invite you to the tournament. So I went to the PIT.

I got 35 and 20. You know, then the next game, we put Sam Mitchell on our team, but we beat him. So down there, you always pick up a player. So after I did that, they invited me to the Hawaii Classic. You know, against all the top 20 in the country, I helped my own. And they invited me to the East and West All-Star Game. That's like the top 20 coming out of the draft, top 20 players. I helped my own. And they invited me to the East and West All-Star game. That's like the top 20 coming out of the draft, top 20 players.

I helped my own. And then the draft came around. They called me and said, well, you might be in the top four round, you know, in the top four round. And I said, well, you know, I didn't go to New York. Next thing they called me, they said, you might be in the top three round. Then the next thing, the top two. Man, I am going top ten.

I didn't even go to the draft because they said the fourth round. Why would I go to the draft if I'm coming out in the fourth round? From a historic black college. I've been embarrassed. They probably was like, why are you coming out anyway? You wasn't going to go to the first round. So, hey, when you put hard work, when you work hard and do your things right, good things happen.

But, you know, having trained with you, and a lot of people don't know this, you used to come back to Atlanta, and you would train with the football guys. You on the track running. You out there lifting. And I'm looking like, hold on. I remember when I first, I'm like, hold on, that's Charles Oakley. Why the hell he out here running with us? And you keep it up with the football players.

You come to the gym. Hey, what time y'all lifting today? I'm like, you going to lift? You coming to the gym? You're like, yeah. Yeah. I was dedicated. You know, y'all running them 110s and all that stuff on the track.

Yeah. I mean, one thing is I never turn down work. And that's probably why I last so long. Probably, you know, you last so long. It's your craft playing football. And I think that, you know, playing 82 to 100 games a year and still be able to get up without aches and pains, you got to put work in.

Yeah. Oak, you played with two Hall of Fame players. You played with Michael Jordan. You played with Patrick Ewing. Obviously, one was a big, the other was a guard. But outside of the positions that they played, what are the biggest differences in Patrick Ewing and

Mike? I mean, Michael was more of a sexy player. He's a wing guy. He can rebound, bring the ball down, and make plays, and make things look easy. He's a bigger guy, running straight down the middle of the floor, got to wait for you to bring the ball. You got to wait for him to get in the right position. So, I mean,

it's like night and day. You know, I think that now is why you'll see a lot of centers in the game. The more everybody won't stretch fourth, stretch five, can make the three. So, it was a big difference. I mean, Michael was the it. In fact, Patrick was just the player. But you said in the book,

you said Michael is the A player, Patrick is the B player. We never had a true A player on the Knicks. I mean, if you look at, like, most teams, you're going to give somebody, like the Knicks right now, Julius Randle is the A player, you know, because they don't have nobody else. He's really a B player, but they don't have an A player.

I mean, Patrick with skills can do a lot of things, but I think that once he got to the NBA, he didn't do the thing he did at Georgetown. Right. For his mentality, you know, I mean, we play hard,

you know, kept myself in a lot of games and this and that. I mean, he made, he got all the accolades, the dream team, all-star, all this and that,

top 50 player of all time. I mean, like I said, you got to like draft these days. They got to draft mean, like I said, you got to draft these days. They got to draft somebody because they got to pick. But Patrick, he was good. But, I mean, he wasn't a king. You know, a guy, a king could carry a team and put a team on his back

because he was so agile and he knew how to. He was better. I think his IQ was better than Patrick. What's your relationship like with Patrick? Are you in communication? Do you guys talk? I mean, my relationship with Patrick, Are you in communication? Do you guys talk? I mean, my relationship with Patrick,

I took care of Patrick for 10 years. I mean, I had his back. I was there for him. We did great things together. We went to 10 playoffs together in New York.

We never could win the championship, but we got there. We couldn't win it. My only thing really hurt me was with Patrick was when that thing

happened in New York, he didn't come up to my rescue in no kind of way. And that's just kind of sad for someone to play together for 10 years. And maybe why I'm talking more about him now because, hey, when you play with somebody for 10 years and give them your heart, I sacrificed my game. I took less shots. I took charges.

I dived in the stand. I mean, I did all the dirty work. And when someone did something to me, and you play, you should know me, if you play with me 10 years and something happened, and if I call you and say I'm wrong, if I don't call you and tell you I'm wrong, you got to go to war for me.

Right. Point blank. You guys do make it, you made it to one NBA finals, 1994. That was the year Jordan had stepped away from the game. Right. Do you wish you could have gone through Jordan to say, put that to rest because they say, well, yeah, you went to the finals, but Jordan was gone.

And do you wish, what would you have done? What would you have liked to see the Knicks do differently? Because you had a 3-2 lead going to Houston. Houston. Yes. I mean, it's come up as serious that we was up 2-0 one time. I just think, you know, we got Pat Riley as our coach, and I think that we got called up.

I think sometimes Pat Riley got called into Phil Jackson motion and not the team. What we're trying to do is win as a team. I think they heard us a couple times, but we was right there, but we know what, we never get the big bounce, never got the call. And in this sport, you know that sometimes

you got to get the ball, got to bounce that way and a play got to go your way. We never got that. For some reason, I don't know with the Minnesota Vikings, I don't know the Buffalo Bills, but you know, these teams, Buffalo went, what, four years in a row? Minnesota Vikings went about four or five times.

Sometimes it just ain't meant for you. But we was fighting for it, but what can you do? The ball got to go in to win. Right. When you got traded from the Bulls to the Knicks, do you believe had you stayed on the Bulls, you guys would eventually win a championship like they did when they got caught right?

No doubt. With Michael Jordan and Scottie Mature and the Hoards, that team definitely was going to win. You can see it coming. Like a train down south, like they said, if you put your hair against the railroad track, you know the train coming. You hear it.

You can hear it. So, yeah, I thought that team definitely was going to win. I don't know if they would have won six, but they would have won one or two. If you'd have had the so-called A player in New York, do you believe you could have won a championship in New York if you'd have had an A player? Oh, yes. I think if Patrick would have played the same way he played in Georgetown,

we would have won. I think he didn't have played the same way he played in Georgetown, we would have won. I think he didn't bring that intensity on defense because, you know, on defense can determine how your offense is going to go sometimes. But I think if he would have played the same way, goaltending, blocking shots, putting people on their back like Georgetown, we could have won. But like I said, you know, I think sometimes um we sell it too much you know we didn't do the right thing sometimes in coaching I mean like I said when we played the Bulls some most games

came down to one or two possessions right and then they said when that type of game most time the team with the best player gonna win and and they had the best player. At the beginning of the book, this is how you start the book off. I did not punch Charles Barkley. I repeat, I did not punch Charles Barkley. I did slap the you-know-what out of Charles Barkley. Yeah, true statement. I did slap the you-know-what out of him at the NBA lockout.

But at one point in time, he gave you great credit. What transpired over the course of five, 10 years that changed that you were, you were cool. I'm not saying y'all was best of friends. You were cool. You were cordial to you walking up to the man and slapping him.

Well, that was probably after I smacked him. It was, it was, it was the lockout. It was just, you know, he had touched me in my face, and, you know, I don't play that. I don't know where his hand been. He's a grown man.

I'm a grown man. I can't let you get away with that. Don't play with me. I never play with nobody. And that's one thing I try to tell people. You know, people always come and ask you a thousand questions. I ain't got time to ask a thousand questions. Just say hello.

If you know me, you already know about me. So it's just a lot of things happen. He talked too much. I mean, he was a great player. I gave him that. But besides that, I ain't giving him nothing else. When he see me, he better go the other way. That's why I'm going to give him that.

Hold up. I read in the book that he kept saying that guy, you were on steroids. Well, I wasn't that big, so I don't know. I guess because you were so strong. He might have been talking about Karl Malone, but no. You do realize you don't have normal strength for a basketball player. You're a height of a basketball player, but you got strength like a basketball player. You're a height of a basketball player, but you got strength like a football player.

I've seen you in the gym. We worked out together, O. We've been on the track together. You're not like the average basketball player. Well, back in the days, I just do 315 10 times. Exactly. I got the 375s, so I guess I'm, you know, but still. I mean, he was better than me, athletic, you know, scoring points,

but I had to just do what I had to do on the court. I mean, I had to protect myself and make sure that every night when I went out, I had my team back. And, you know, my job was to shut down the paint, but for me and him personally, I mean, I've seen him out several times. Y'all cool now? Nah, because he don't probably on TNT talking about why he talking about me in the book. I'm going to keep talking about you. I got a car wash and no clothes.

So keep coming to the car wash, Charles. Okay. Tell the story about Tyrone. Hold on. I'm just trying to figure out this story about Tyrone Hill. You lend Tyrone Hill. It's a card game. You lend Tyrone Hill 20 grand.

In Atlanta. In Atlanta. Now, this is what I know about you. All right. Let me tell you. I want to tell the story. I had one of the first 760. You came to town.

I had just got in the car. I had 50 miles on the car. You're like, man, I want to buy that car. I'm like, huh? I said, I just got the car. He said, I want to buy it. You called me. Tell me to come up to, at the time, it was the Ritz-Carlton in Buckhead.

I come up to Ritz-Carlton. I drive the car up there. You're like, okay, I will take it. I'm like, what you mean you're going to take it? You're like, here, you gave me $125,000 cash. You took me back home. You say, hey, do me a favor. Leave the insurance on it till Tuesday

till I get to where I'm going. I'll change the insurance over and I'll call you back. That Tuesday you called me, you good. You peed me. That was it. So I know you probably don't carry money on you good that was it you probably don't carry money on you like that now so I know you were good for the money you had the money on you

why wouldn't the man give you the money back well it was a problem that he said he was going through a divorce and I said really I said who mad your ass number one so what they led to another. We in training, we in,

so training camp start. We in North Carolina be playing somebody. Right. So, they in they layup line. I get out, I get out of my team

layup line and get in they layup line. Just to get, just to get the rebound to get to him and let him know that I'm in the building. Okay.

So, it was so funny. All the guys were laughing like, oh, you're in the wrong line. I let him know that I'm in the building. So it was so funny. All the guys were laughing like, oh, you're in the wrong line. I said, no, I'm not. So when he do his layup, another team do layup, by the time for me to get the ball to him,

he's looking at, oh, shit. He thought he seen a ghost. But this man just kept kind of dug. It started until the season. The season started. That's the crazy part. So the season started. We played Philly.

He on Philly now because he was playing with Cleveland. So he in Philly. So the season started. We played Philly. He on Philly now because he was playing with Cleveland. So he in Philly. So the first game, da-da-da, we play him in New York. He don't show up. Next game, we go to Philly. So I get there early. You know, we probably get there before 6.

I could do like 5, 30, quarter to 6. So I get some flowers in my locker. And somebody sent me some flowers. I looked at them. So it says the Charles Hogan. So I told the top ball and I said to Tyrone here from Charles Hogan. So I gave the ball boy $100 to take these and put them in Tyrone here locker.

So I said, stay in there to see a reaction once he see it. So he came in, he was going to play that night. He came in the locker room, this and that. So he said, ball boy, so he walked in the door, he started smiling, da-da-da. He was going to play that night. He came in the locker room, da-da-da, this and that. So he said, ball boy, so he walked through the door. He started smiling, seeing the flowers. He went to his locker, and then he opened up the thing and said, and started reading it. Ball boy said he threw a thing down and just started coughing.

So he went home. He left the arena and went home and played sick. Come on, Oak. Yes. Yes. You writing a book. Play sick. You writing a book that when you finally were able to approach him,

you said, he told you, Oak, I'm going through it because right now I'm going through a divorce. Your words were, divorce? Who married your ugly ass? Right. Oak, you out your mind, Oak. So it went on to the season, Larry Brown. People started like, why Tyrone not showing it. So, as it went on to the season, Larry Brown, people started like,

why Tyrone not showing up? So, it got big. So, he tried it. The first game of the playoff, he came by. Man, why are you doing this? You know I was going through this. And I said, man, I ain't got nothing to do with it. You know, you make more money than me.

So, he said, I got your money. So, he handed me the money. I'm looking at it. I said, what is this? I said, you know I got charred juice on your money. So he hand me the money. I'm looking at, what is this? I said, you know I got charred juice on my money. So I threw him with the money, he with the money, got the car. Next day he came back, gave me $30.

I charged him 10 extra. So he finally paid you your money? Yeah, oh yeah, he had to pay. Okay, now you get into it. You, yeah, he had to pay. Okay. Now you get into it. As a matter of fact, at this time, you're playing with the Wizards. You're talking to someone in Charlotte, a female. You don't mention the name in the book.

You mention the fee. Now, this is what I do know about you. You drive it, damn near, everywhere. It's nothing for you, Oak, to get in the car and drive 1,000 miles. So people might not know. I know that about you. You drive from Cleveland to New York. You drive from Georgia to New York.

Driving is nothing to you. You're talking to this young lady on the phone. You hear somebody in the background. You ask her who that is. She says, Jeff. She never gives you the last name. She just said, Jeff. And I guess who that is, she says Jeff. She never gives you the last name. She just said Jeff

and I guess there's some commotion going on and you're like, what the hell is that going on? You hang up the phone, you get in your car and drive down. I drive all the way

down to Charlotte, you know, and ask her where this guy was talking at because he had said something. Like, who's that guy you talking to? And I'm like,

tell him he's been really disrespected. So I drive down there, this and that. So then I find out another season started, right? He was playing with the Clippers. I'm in Toronto. So

he in Toronto. Toronto come to... I'm in Toronto. The Clippers come to Toronto. You know, they come in the day before, but they had the first shoot aroundaround or second shoot-around. So the vision team most times get the first shoot-around. Right. So I'm in the locker room.

I mean, my thing, he wasn't on my mind, but it seemed like I went to practice too early or something because I ran out of things to do. So I was just bored. Right. And I realized that, man, they're shooting around. It's 10 o'clock. So about five minutes to 10, I leave the locker room.

Everybody else is watching tape. You know, I had came early, so I knew what we was going to do. So I walk out there, just walk in there, practice. I go straight, a big line straight towards him. Ask no questions, no nothing. I just whack. Hold on. Hold on.

Hold on. Oh. You just walk up on the man and just... It wasn't they practice. They was practice. Yeah. In front of the whole team, coaches, everybody. So I hit him.

But my older was like, that's my best friend. I said, well, you get in line then because I'm hitting the game. So I hit him in the head. These people might have a ring on. Hit him in the head. So about that time, my other teammates coming out, they're seeing all of them around me and everybody running down there, what's going on?

So, Evan Jennings, the coach, he called the NBA, Larry Richardson, and tell them that Oak came in there practicing to hit the playoff, right? So, da-da-da. They called me back about 3.30, you know, we go back home, this and that, 3.30, Oak, you suspended, da-da-da. So, April come around, you know, we go about 3.30. You know, we go back home, this and that, 3.30. Oh, you suspended, da, da, da.

So April come around, you know, we go to L.A. He's sending out messages like, oh, we got all the crips and blood. When you come to L.A., this and that. So I said, well, you know, the team coming, I'm coming. So I called my guy. We get in the night before, two of us, two of them and one of me, we go to dinner. I said, man, man you know this guy been

talking mess you know so that so he said what's going on i said well just play five more guys i'm gonna have y'all seven tickets all y'all wear black and i'm gonna get some tickets behind the clippers bench so the guy came next day boom boom i got the tickets gave them to him they sit behind the clipper bench with shades on so the one of the ball boys said, oh, wasn't them the guys I seen you leave at last? I said, yeah, you know, that guy was talking mess to me. So basically I told these guys that I might have a problem. Right. And they came and showed up.

Guess what happened the first quarter? He played hurt. He seen seven guys sitting behind the bench. He knew something was up. He played hurt, went home. So at the game, my seven guys, we standing by the bus before we leave, this and that. They said, what happened to the guy

that was talking to us? I said, man, he left at halftime. So he ain't want no smoke. He didn't want that smoke. OK, Lamar Odom, who said he was his best friend, you're at the All-Star game in D.C., correct? D.C., yeah. You're at the All-Star game in D.C., correct? D.C., yeah. You're at the hotel, so you're waiting for the elevator to come to your floor.

The doors open. It's Lamar Odom and three or four guys. You get on the elevator. You say, somebody need to get off. They get off the elevator. All of them get off. Hold on. All of them get off. How you get on the elevator and talk about somebody need to get off? They. All of them get off. All of them get off.

How you get on the elevator and talk about somebody need to get off, they was on there first. It didn't matter. Oh, you wild. It's just funny, man. Hey, Shay, this book, the story's in the book. It's just

easy to read, good story. I tell everybody, don't be drinking no coffee or drinking no wine reading this book because you're going to waste it. Yeah. Because this book, boy, you don't know what – it's like somebody – you don't know where the punch coming from, you know. But it's just – I mean, I just want people to know, hey, give them something to talk about. Have something on your shelf, like when you have your books,

all your books shelf and this and that. If I want something funny, what book I'm going to? I just want you to go to the Enforcer. Look, I know Judge Mathis. I've met Judge Mathis out here. How the hell you almost get the swing of a Judge Mathis?

Well, in that book, hey, Shay, in the book, I'm going to give you the beginning of it. Okay. So I'm in Cleveland. You know, about seven years straight, I used to have Labor Day weekend. I had a club. We'd go to Mewson Park, play softball, barbecue at my mother's house.

So that summer, this summer we were having it, the weather was kind of bad. I had a black van. So everybody wasn't in town. They wouldn't come in until Saturday. So maybe about three or four people was in town. Most, about 20 people come in town. But anyway, so

we just go down to the Mirage. So we still went to the Mirage, about five of us in the van. So I walk in the Mirage. So we still went to the Mirage, about five of us in the van. So I walk in the Mirage, you know, I'm at home, everybody want to talk to you, this and that. I'm talking to this guy and this other guy, oh, I need to talk to you. I said, man, I'm talking, give me 10 to 15 minutes. He come up to me again.

I said, give me 10 to 15 minutes. About three or four minutes. He come up to me again. I said, no know what, man? You come up here again, I'm going to smack the shit out of you. About 30 seconds. He grabbed me. That's what got me. I might have let him go, but he grabbed me.

Man, I knocked him out, man. Hold up. You're not going to let this out? No, no, no. I ain't got to him yet. This all is in the same night, though. So I'm in Cleveland. Okay. So this is in Cleveland. So he grabbed me. Right.

I turned around and knocked him out. So I ain't had nothing to drink or nothing. I'm just talking to this guy. My people had a drink because we was there about 20, 30 minutes. So I'm talking. So by the time he grabbed me and I hit him and then people come, oh, what happened? I said, man, let's just get out of here.

So we get out of there, I get in the van, we always five of us, start driving. My stepbrother in OJ is Eric Grant. He called me, we about five minutes from another spot. He said, oh, I heard just what happened. Yeah, man, he kept grabbing on me. He said, man, come on to Detroit. Detroit, most of the time, like 245 from Cleveland. I got it at 215.

He said, we got a show. We go on last. And so, it's about 536. We get there about 830. They on stage. He leave the tickets. I got in the band. I got a strobe light on. So, I'm putting it like I'm somebody important. You know, important, but like I'm in. I got a strobe light. So I'm putting it like I'm somebody important. You know, important, but

I'm in the show with the strobe light. So we go behind stage, stand up there. This and that. We see the last three songs. And we see a lot of celebrities in here. So bam. So the show is over. Most time after the show, the members of the group go to the locker room for 30, 40 minutes to cool down.

So I hit him up and he said, well, I'm going over here. Jerry Coleman got us Sweet Georgia Brown. And he said, well, we'll be on in about 45 minutes to an hour. So I get my crew, we get in the van, we go around there, da-da-da, this and that. So we walk in, here goes George

Maffin, Queen Latifah, Kwame, Derek Coleman. I mean, it's just all kinds of celebrities in there. So the girls on with the other two guys. So the girls said, we got to go to the restroom, you know, freshen up. I said, go ahead. We'll wait till you come back.

So they go in there for about four or five minutes, come back. And I said, they said, can we stay here with Queen Latifah? I said, I mean, just ask Queen. Queen said, yeah, she already had about four girls with her. Right. Queen Latifah? I said, I mean, just ask Queen. Queen said, yeah, she already had about four girls with her. So we go in the corner, Derek Coleman and Kwame, you know, they over there just kicking the breeze, this and that. So 30, 40 minutes go past, here come Eddie and Eric from OJ's. We can sit in there,

Eric, you know, good job, man, this and that. And they like, man, I'm glad you came. Eddie's like, oh, Eric told me what you just did in Cleveland. I said, man, the man kept grabbing on me. You know how I do, man, you from Cleveland. So, Eric said, yeah, we gotta keep it up, man. We gotta stay real with it. So about 20 minutes later, he come and judge Mappas. Yeah, he go to check.

He go, y'all check, check. I'm like, we just been here 45 minutes. I mean, how many drinks did the girl have? I mean, no, no, no, no. One thing led to another. I said, what is you talking about? I said, DC, check this man. Oh, come on.

Oh, he coming over here bothering me. I ain't doing nothing. It wasn't a problem I paying the check, it's the way how he did it. Right, he thought you- I said, I'm gonna check your ass for what? I'm gonna did it. Right. He's like, Eddie, I'm going to check your ass for what? I'm going to knock you in your head. Eddie's like, oh, please, oh.

I said, Eddie, you know he wrong. You're going to try to be disrespectful. You want to be trying to show out in front of Queen Latifah? You get the check. And one thing led to another. I said, Eddie, like, oh, please. I said, man. Then he said, I'm going to call my boys on you.

I said, no way. Call them. I threw my keys to my man, Mouton. He was from Houston. I said, go out there. Start the band. I had the stash box. And I said, when you hit the radio, hit the brakes,

and then something goes. I said, keep them ready. Because if something come up here too out of the ordinary, you know what to do. So we got into it, man, just this and that. We finally get up. I told the girl, see, that's what happened. Stay with the people you come with.

This would never happen because if he couldn't have came over here and had somebody pay the check. So all the extra attention, he came because of y'all. Oh, no, no, no. I said, okay, next time you go somewhere with me, stay in the truck or stay with me. So we get in the road about two hours, almost back. Here comes Butch Lewis called me.

Oh, I heard what happened, man. I heard what happened. He was wrong. If I ever see him again, I'm going to smack the dogs out of him. Oh, please don't do this, man. So it was just a crazy night, man. He was trying to front, trying to play the big shot role. You don't never tell somebody you're going to call somebody on you.

And I got a big band outside with all kind of equipment in it. Not radio equipment either. I ain't had no DJ. Let me ask you this. I'm going to get you out of here on this. Jordan had, obviously, Charles Barkley. Jordan and Charles was very cool when they played.

Charles made some comments on his show on TNT. He and Jordan have been cool since. Isaiah, Scotty, do you believe these guys will ever be cool again? No. No. It's just like asking. I don't think so.

Isaiah, no. Isaiah mad because he took Chicago. He trying to say he told, if he was going to play on the dream team, he wasn't going to play. Scottie, I mean, Scottie just wanted to put himself in a position that is almost tough to even sit down – sit across from the guy that went to war with you. Now you got, you know, said stuff about him in the book.

But Barkley, ain't no more golf for Barkley. I told him, it's time out Barkley TNT you gotta work on TNT for the next 20 years ain't no golf time for you and I feel sorry for you I know you really like to play golf your game is getting better but you gotta play

with some other guys and Jordan got the keys to all the top all the top courses over the world Michael Jordan can not just that And Jordan got the keys to all the top courses over the world. Michael Jordan can make it. Hey, Shane, not just that. He got one of the best golf courses, Grove 23, in the world. And he got – right.

He built his own golf course. So Barkley probably – he probably get a plane that's right over it because he ain't going to ever play on it. He can see it from the sky, but he can't see it from the ground. because he ain't going to ever play on it. He can see it from the sky, but he can't see it from the ground. You in D.C., you with the Wizards, when Kwame was there, what happened with Kwame Brown? Why wasn't Kwame able to fulfill the potential that so many people saw in him?

Well, he had a lot of potential. I think that Doug was there, and, you know, they drafted him, but they didn't work with him. I think that's a lot that's going on in the league today. Kwame is real intelligent. He understands the game, but, you know, he has small hands. You know, sometimes you can't get out of your own way. Sometimes I think that might have had to come in.

Because, like I said, he was intelligent. He got in his own way sometimes. And he probably thought they didn't put enough interest in him. They drafted him number one. But sometimes when you draft somebody number one, you figure they can play. Right. So, you got to show me something and put interest in you.

So, they might have didn't see that early you know they might ask him to do something he probably didn't do it they probably figured out but he's lazy but when i went back down there to coach him the two years i was there i mean he wanted to work but they didn't know they didn't get to really know him to see his weakness and you know what he do best right so that might have been a management uh problem because they didn't spend time with him enough to really see how he functioned, what his thought of mind is. So some people

are not real strong, man. Some people need help. That's why they said some people need to have pep talks. Some folks feel like they got to pep you up every game. He might have needed that, and they didn't give him that. Right. Do you think Jordan was hard on him because Jordan was trying to win championships? A lot of guys

like LeBron, LeBron ain't trying to work with no rookie and getting them ready to play. He wants veterans, guys that understand how to play so we can compete for a title. I ain't got trying to babysit you. Well, I didn't see Mike really, you know, he might have said, damn, Kwame, catch the ball.

Shit, something like that, but he didn't ride Kwame like, you know, I mean, he invests in you. So he wanted you to do well. He didn't want you to don't accept, you know. He wanted to see what you had in you. He might have been doing it to see would you tough mind or no. But I don't think he was riding Kwame like that. They might have talked about him in a way that when they seen him,

he wasn't working out. But I thought he had a lot of talent. But like I said, he might have put enough work in to get better. He might have just stayed at the same level. But it seemed like later in his career, he got more hungry because I guess when things ain't going right, you want to get better. It might have been too late to get better. And then people didn't have no trust in you. When people don't have trust in you, that ain't going right, you want to get, you know, you won't get better. Right. You know, it might have been too late to get better. And then people didn't have no trust in you.

When people don't have trust in you, that ain't good. Do you remember Master P coming to Toronto? Yeah. Master P came up there, Butch called a game of trial. Master P was just funny. He was a guy, he played in a couple of games, but, you know, he was, hey, he probably just been glad to be on the team. You know, we bonded.

I mean, I get along with anybody until they show me a side that I don't like. You know what I'm saying? But I had no problem with him. You know, somebody from the music world getting a try on the NBA. I mean, I was for him. He just didn't have enough talent. What about, let me ask you a question. The 80 and 90 90s players,

do you believe, how many of the 80s and 90s players could play as well as they did in the 80s and 90s in today's game? And if we take

today's players and put them back in the 80s and 90s? I think today's players have a harder time than the 80s and 90s players. Even though we played more half court

in the 80s and 90s, but they were still skilled. Right. And the physicality was there. And I think these players couldn't have played half court like we did in the 80s and 90s.

You know, not to insult them, but I think they just not, mindset ain't strong enough. And you watch them play, you don't see the structure. The structure.

Right. It was more structure in the 80s and 90s. Right. But I think it's kind of, basketball, I look at it as like football. They've legislated the physicality out of football. Oh, yeah. the structure it was more structure in the 80s and 90s right but I think it's kind of basketball I look at it as like football

they've legislated the physicality out of football they've legislated the physicality out of basketball they tried to make it not an exclusively

skill game you got flagrant one flagrant twos man those were common files you might not even get a file called

with some of the files y'all did in the 80s and 90s. Well, everything now is about money in the global world, especially NBA. You know, they're searching for, like, when I play, it's probably like 3% UMP players. Now you got 30 or more, and that's where the money's coming from. So they're getting big contracts, And the NBA signed a contract about four years ago, $24 billion in nine years.

And I think that's probably, when we played, probably was $200 million. So you see how much it can grow for global money. Do you think we'll, will we ever see fights like you guys had in the 80s and 90s? Will they fight like that in today's NBA? I don't know whether you'll see a fight like this. Back in the 80s and 90s, you're going to have to Google it.

You got to go to Google again. Oak, look, the new thing now is celebrity fighting, the celebrity boxing matches. If I say, okay, Oak, I got X amount of dollars for a celebrity boxing match, who you want? Who you want your opponent to be? First one is Shaq, Barkley, them two.

Oh, you want Shaq? You want a celebrity boxing match with Shaq? Yeah, I know he's about 75 pounds heavy, but I'll take him. You'll take Shaq in a boxing match? Because I know you used to box now. Yeah, I got tell you. I know you're about 75 pounds heavy, but I'll take him. You take Shaq in the boxing bag? Because I know you use the box now. Yeah, I got some pretty good hands. I still hit the bag every now and then. Oh, do you?

Yeah, but I'm going to be moving, though. But no, it'll be fun. I will definitely do that, though, with an NBA X player. You would? Yeah. Yeah. I still got the little bobbing weave in me. Right.

Obviously, you and LeBron, LeBron's a close friend of yours. You know LeBron. Grew up in Cleveland. He grew up in Akron. What's it like to have a guy like LeBron growing up and you see what he became? Did you think LeBron would be as good as he became? Well, like I said, watching him from an early age until he – I think when he came to Chicago and saw the pros play that summer

and he went back to college – I mean, went back to the high school and he's seen so much. And like I say, like visualizing like, you know, he's one of them guys vision and stuff. He felt like, wow, I got to get my gang like this,, like visualizing, like, you know, he's one of the guys vision and stuff. He felt like, wow, I got to get my gang like this, gang like that. Because they didn't let him play. Right.

He wanted to play. That was a challenge for him. But what he had done over his career, it's just incredible. On and off the floor. He's just been incredible. He's standing for everything. He holds guys accountable.

And he got his crew with him. Brandon Rich and Mav, his family, he just do it all. I've never seen a guy do all this. Probably the first guy who still plans to be a billionaire, still plans to be a professional. What more can you say?

I just feel bad for him, the situation that's going on in L.A. right now. Right. And last time I seen a situation like this with a superstar, with MJ, first five or six years in the league, when I come over to the Bulls, getting 38-8 and still losing 500 teams, that ain't him. He deserves better than that.

And I think that I don't know what's going to happen. He might have to get out of L.A. I hate the fans, you know, hear me say that. But he needs a ring. He needs a ring, and I think that he might have to leave to get it. And the two places that he can probably get it in right now, either Phoenix or Philadelphia. I said Philly, him and Joel Embiid.

Yes. Make that trade. Bill Simmons, LeBron, the money match. I think Portland was trying to do something to make the money match. I mean, Phoenix would make the money match because that's what they need. I like Phoenix this year for some reason. They've got another big man. I like them.

They've been consistent the last two years. Because most of the time, when you get to the finals and you don't bounce back the next year, you ain't going to never get back. And they playing the same way they played last year, but they playing smarter and better. Right. Oak, you used to be a gambler. I don't know if you still gamble like you used to.

You was big in the cash game. Yeah. What's the most money you ever lost in a cash game? I don't know. I'd say about 50. 50. Your game is tongue. You still like...

Your game is tongue or beret? We play tongue. We play poker. Don't play no guts. I hate guts. You don't play beret? I play guts.

I don't... No. I like guts, but I hate beret. Okay. So, Boo Ray? I play guts. No, I like guts, but I hate Boo Ray. Okay. So we had MJ's birthday party. So I did all the cooking, did all this and that. So we had a poker game going on with MJ and some other crew.

We had another gut game going on with Jay-Z, World West, and a few other guys. So I was back and forth because I was doing, you know, I was doing the serving of the food and all that. Yeah, you're cooking and everything. Okay. So I got in late this day in the gut game. So it lasted a few hours.

It was getting late, about 11, 13 to 12. So it was coming to an end. So J.J., boy, won. I think he called butt on him, but I was sweating good. I was about to get in his ass because I think he called the pot and didn't have the money. You know, he was with Jake, but still, though, he didn't have it in front of him.

So we don't play that. You call something and you borrow it. No, you got to have it in front of you to call it. So I was kind of heated, but it was a good night because that was my man's birthday, you know, second night. Yeah, you can't set it off at the man's birthday. Oh, damn. I was about to.

I know you were about to. I know you were about to. You can't set it off at your birthday. Let me ask you this. What are your thoughts on Ben Simmons? How that situation is playing out in Philadelphia? Doc said what he said. I'm not sure we can win a championship with him.

Joe Ellenby said the game changed when we had a layup. I mean, we had a layup, and we ended up getting a free throw. What are your thoughts on Ben Simmons? Is he handling it right? What should he do, and how should he handle it? Ain't nobody handling it right. But Ben Simmons

got to take a lot of the blame, at least 60%, because they gave you $170 million to play basketball, and you tell them you don't want to shoot, you don't want to do this and that. My thing is, you sign the contract, you got to play. Then management

come in, da-da-da, this and that. We want $120 on the dollar, and now he ain't want for maybe 60% on the dollar. So my thing is, everybody drop the ball, the coach, I now he ain't worth maybe 60% on the dollar. So my thing is everybody drop the ball. Doctor's the coach. I know he might not say,

you know, what he's saying about a player, but they tell players to make sure if he's going to say something, say something good.

Same thing, should go to coaches. It's just a tricky situation. I think that he definitely going to have to be traded because the Philly fans going to kill him. If he go back

on that floor, he might start taking the grade the same night because they're going to kill him. The fans ain't going to go to be traded because the Philly fans are going to kill him. If he can walk back on that floor, he might start taking the grade the same night because they're going to kill him. He can't go back to Philly. He can't go back to Philly. They can get maybe 60% on the dollar. They need to go and find a trade in the next seven, eight days. If not,

they're going to go down to 30. Next thing you know, you might as well let them walk, because nobody's gonna give you too much form. I think in L.A., Mike would take him right now, because L.A., sooner or later, they're gonna have to rebuild. Because what they're having right now is they got issues. They're losing

too many games, and too many bad teams, and they got three or four Hall of Famers, but it ain't showing everybody on the court. Right. It's not meshing. We know you're a great cook. You once cooked for Oprah. But, I mean, being from the South, you probably had some possum or raccoon,

some squirrel, some rabbit. What's the wildest thing you've cooked? Well, the wildest thing I cooked was alligator. I was on chop. Okay. I had alligator. Well, alligator is thing I cooked was alligator. I was on chop. Okay. I had alligator. Well, alligator's just like chicken. So you can season the same way.

You can fly a little egg and, you know, dip it in there and fry it. But, you know, alligator, I mean, it was good. I was surprised. But it's like chicken, but it's got a little, you know. It's a little gamier. Yeah, it's a little tougher, a little gamier. Yeah. Yeah, a little gamier.

More like duck. So I know this about you. You love cooking. I mean, you go over to people's houses, and you try to take over the kitchen, and you just like, hold on. You just got, how you going to take over my kitchen? Where did the love of cooking come from?

Love from the cooking came from just being picky. Going to restaurants, don't like the food. And being picky, you got to know the food. So my thing is, I just started learning. Like when I was in Chicago, we used to play like Tonk and Spade. I'd make fried wings, I'd throw it there. Next time I'm making some else, I'm making some

baked chicken and some broccoli, rice. So I just built up from there. And just next thing you know, I just got everything down. And to this day, I'm pretty good in the kitchen. Are you thinking about opening up a restaurant or you just want to cook on the side? Cook on the side. I was part of two different restaurants,

but I think if I open a restaurant up, I'm going to have to be there every day because people are going to come in just to critique my food, and if it ain't good, they're going to try to send it back. So I already know what they're going to do. So I'm going to stay awake on that and just keep doing my little small things, my charity work, and just keep living. Oh, you know, you remember I called you at the –

it was 2016, I think, when the Cavaliers came back from 3-1. I said, Oak, if they come back from 3-1. I said oh, I said okay If they come back, I will come to the parade So sure enough they come back you call me you coming to the raid. I think I said, oh you for real He like hey, I already got the ticket. We go go back. We go go behind the scene. Hey hop on the flight Hey, I can't pick your bad point roll down there. Yeah, right? Yeah, they come the flight. Hey, I came to Pickett Airport. We rolled down there. We're sitting right there.

Then come LeBron, then the Rhodes Converters, all the Cavs. Like, come on up. We went and took the picture. We had a ball. It was cool, though. Made it with great fans. It was great. Because I remember being on Skip's first take and telling Skip,

I'm going to the parade. Now, they hadn't even started yet. I said, I'm going to the parade. I'm going to be on the fire truck, yada, yada, yada. And lo and behold, the thing came to fruition. Man, I had a great time. I had a great time. But, oh, man, congratulations on the book.

Thanks, man. The Last Enforcer. Like I said, some of the stories I knew because having known you for almost 30 years, I knew some of the stories. But some of the stories, y'all got to go get this book. You're going to laugh because you're going to like, this man is out of his mind.

He's not out of his mind. He's very sane, but he's a no-nonsense, no BS type of guy. The last enforcer, outrageous stories from the life and times of one of the NBA's fiercest competitors, Charles Oakley.

Oak Tree, man, I appreciate the time today, bro. Good to see you. Thank you, man. I'm going to be out there next week, so I'm doing something for a skit road for the Super Bowl. So I'll give you a hit when I get out there. No problem, bro. Good to see you. Thanks again.

Love you, man. I love you too, bro. All my life, been grinding all my life. Sacrifice, hustle, pay the price. Want a slice, got to roll the dice. That's why all my life I've been grinding all my life. Sacrifice. Hustle paid the price. Won a slice. Got the roll of dice. That's why all my life I've been grinding all my life. All my life. I've been grinding all my life. Sacrifice. Hustle paid the price. Won a slice. Got the roll of dice. That's why all my life I've been grinding all my life. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news and the best analysis delivered by the time you get your coffee.

The show hits every single game every single week, but I can't do it alone, so I'm bringing in all the big guns from NFL media like Colleen Wolf. Subscribe today and you'll immediately be smarter and funnier than your friends. Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.