Club Shay Shay - Isiah Thomas

Episode Date: November 9, 2020

On episode 8 of Club Shay Shay, Shannon welcomes in 12-time All Star, two-time NBA champion, 1990 Finals MVP, & NCAA National champion: Isiah Thomas.Shannon & Isiah cover the scope of Mr. Wonderful’s NBA career, from being drafted by Detroit to becoming an All-Star and leading the “Bad Boys” Pistons to back-to-back championships in 1989 & 1990. Isiah ranks the top basketball dynasties and players of the ‘80s, and goes into the dynamics of playing in the league during that era. He touches on his exclusion from the 1992 Olympic Dream Team, and the “fascination and disappointment” he felt in response to his portrayal in ‘The Last Dance.’Shannon also presses Isiah on his college career, where he led the Indiana Hoosiers to win the 1981 NCAA tournament. Isiah reveals what it was like to play for Bob Knight, his thought process going into the matchup with Dean Smith’s Tar Heels in the title game, and more. Shannon & Isiah cover a wide range of topics from the past and present of Isiah’s storied life and career, from growing up on the west side of Chicago, to his NBA success and post-NBA pursuits. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Hello, welcome to Club Shea Shea. I am your host. I'm also the proprietor of Club Shea Shea, the guy that's on my show that stopped by a few minutes today. He's a 12-time All-Star, two-time All-Star MVP. He's a Finals MVP, a two-time champion, a national champion, most outstanding player in college, one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history, Isaiah Thomas. Isaiah, how are you today? I am good, brother, and thanks for having me on your show.

Thanks for coming on. In all my years I've known you, Isaiah, I've never not seen you in a suit. Do you wear jeans? Do you wear shorts? Do you wear anything other than suits? You know what? One time I remember I i went to do a we did a little thing at nba tv that open court set okay well that's all to come casual right so i put on jeans and a shirt and steve smith grabbed me right he goes no no no you you always wear a jacket so this this is like this is like my grade school Catholic boy uniform. Okay. Isaiah, you grew up on the west side of Chicago, nine brothers and sisters. Obviously,

normally when families come from big families like that, the parents are very disciplined, very strict. How was your upbringing in Chicago? Just as you just described it, my family, you know, six brothers, two sisters. We were a big family. Mom and dad were very, I guess you would say strict. But, you know, when we talk about being strict and disciplinarians at that age, they're only telling you to do the right things. You know, when you're young and you're teenagers, you always want to veer off the beaten track. And they just had a way of keeping you on the right track, giving you positive messages. And even though we were extremely poor, you know, there was that poverty line. And then there was the line below poverty.

We were, you know, a couple of times we were homeless, set out, you know, living from just place to place. But when I look back on growing up and how we lived, somehow my mom and my dad always found a way to make us smile with a song or do something just to take your mind off the pain that you was really going through. So I give them a lot of credit for just, I don't know how they navigated us, you know, through the path that we were on at that time, but somehow they did it and made sure that, you know, I got through. Isaiah, you mentioned you have nine brothers

and it's nine of you guys, You're the youngest of the nine. So how would your parents, were your parents like, I'm talking about the difference between, I think the thing is you grew up in the 60s and early 70s. And I know what strict back then meant as opposed to what strict is now. There are two different types of strict. There are strict in the 60s and 70s and there's strict in the 21st century. So those are different. So explain to our listeners and viewers what strict meant to you growing up back then. It meant really just there was a respect for your elders that you always had to give. Yes. It was always Mr. and Mrs. Yes, sir.

No, sir. Yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. It was never. Hey, Betty, how you doing? And just that that that that type of respect in terms of dignity for yourself, dignity for your fellow man or person that you were dealing with. your fellow man or person that you were dealing with. That's what I mean by strict. And in terms of being disciplined, you know, the way child rearing was back then and the way it is now are two totally different things. I mean, you're going to jail now for what they did back then. Yeah. My mom right now, she would not be looked at, you know, in loving eyes. Right. And nowadays, as she was back then. Right. You know, I would say, you know, the way things were and the way we had to come through to survive, has she not been able to corral us all in and keep us focused on education,

keep us focused on doing the right things. And even though she only had a third grade education herself, she always made sure that somehow we had a meal and sometimes we would have to beg. And I remember one time we were standing in the food line and when you're standing in the – back then you used to call it the soup line. Okay. We were standing in the soup line, and we had just got out of school. And so at 4 o'clock, we're standing in the soup line, and kids still coming from school. And I'll never forget this little boy walked by, and he was teasing me.

And I tried to get out of line to get him. Man, my mother snatched me so hard she snatched me so hard put me back in line because you know if you lose your place in line you got to go all the way back all the way to the back yeah so and I never forget she snatched me so hard but you know when she snatched me you know how they snatch you by your ear they pull you back in. Yes. Yeah, yeah. But Isaiah, as you mentioned, it was yes, sir, no, sir, yes, ma'am, no, ma'am. That just wasn't for your parents.

That was for anybody of age that you had to show the ultimate respect towards. Yes, had to show the ultimate respect for them. And then when an older person that's older than you coming down the street, you had to stop, let them walk by, and keep going. And I grew up in the roughest neighborhood on the west side of Chicago that you can imagine. But that type of respect for your elders and people who are older than you, that was always there. And to a certain extent, it is still there a little bit today. Isaiah, you growing up west side of Chicago, what did you, obviously that's not, I mean, how your parents were you like, I want something better than this. Obviously you had to imagine that there was something better than this on the west side of Chicago. So how did your upbringing

help you like, I can get, I need to get up out of here and I can get out of here. You know, that's where sports kicked in. So being being involved in sport allowed me to be on a travel team. OK, you can go outside of your your your four block radius that we all were confined to. your four block radius that we all were confined to, you would travel outside of that, you know, with your team and you would get to see other communities. Not only would you get to see other communities, you would meet other people and you would see that there's a different way of life other than what you saw on television. It was a different way of life because you saw it on television, but you didn't know that it was maybe five miles away from you. Right. And and that that allowed you to think, think bigger.

That allowed you to aspire to be more. But a lot of that really, you know, it comes back to, you know, the messages that's being reverberated in your household about, hey, you know, this isn't the last stop. And the only way we were taught, the only way you're going to get out of here is not with this basketball, but with these books. Without these books, you can't play with this basketball because they went hand in hand. And Shannon, you remember when we were growing up, they went hand in hand and and Shannon you remember when we were growing up hey the bad guys couldn't be on the team right you know what I mean it wasn't no such thing as oh he can give me 20 points and 10 rebounds nah guy but we're put up with it no no no no no the the the bad guys you know in terms of your personality your personhood as a teammate. Can you, can you be with this group? But if you were

a bad person, right, you got kicked off the team and they didn't care how many points and rebounds you can get. Nowadays, the bad guy can be on the team, which is, which is different than the way we grow. So did you really, okay. You were good at basketball. You're on the traveling team. Did you feel that this was going to be your opportunity? This was going to be your way out? This was a way that Isaiah was going to take care of his family and the family that he grew up with? No. So, you know, the narrative around us as professional basketball players is that we grew up wanting to be NBA players.

The NFL was on television, but NBA wasn't on television. No, it was not. No. So when I was growing up, it was never like, oh, the NBA dream, you're going to make all this money because that wasn't there for us. Even though you knew it was an NBA, it wasn't like, you know, the NFL. Right. And so all my goals were geared towards law school, trying to go to law school, trying to be a lawyer, come back to the community, you know, be a criminal defense lawyer, then, you know, as basketball started to get more popular and I was looked at as a good basketball player, you know, then you got scholarships and everything else. But that wasn't the childhood dream because it wasn't on television.

As a matter of fact, I dreamed more about playing football than that. because as you mentioned only the game of only the game of the week was live and even the nba finals magic johnson's nba first year in the uh the championship that was tape delayed people think oh basketball's been this this this behemoth all these years no it wasn't finals were tape delayed they were played and then you you already knew who, but you watched it anyway because you wanted to see the game. Exactly. Exactly. You know, the behemoth has always been the NFL. Yes. And and the NFL has, you know, inspired even though we play basketball. And that's why you see a lot of basketball players now still, you know, gravitate to football because football to me, it is the sport in terms of, okay, everything is real, you know, and everything's about, you know, being in your position, working together as a team. And if you don't do your job as a left tackle or right tackle or a guard or a center,

somebody getting hurt. Right. Somebody getting hurt. So, you know, if we don't do our jobs on the basketball court, OK, there may be a turnover. Somebody, you know, somebody gets scored on. But but in football, really, if that person doesn't do his job, somebody is going to get hurt. So the trust that you that you build on the football team that you play with as teammates and that that's that's different than than you know what you have on the basketball team and that's why i always gravitated if you look at all my teams that i played on and that i was captain of

we always played with a football mentality right you know You know, the bad boys at Detroit Pistons, we were wearing football jerseys. Y'all took the Raiders. Yeah. That's what we, we brought a football mentality to basketball and people think it was a physicality, but it wasn't a physicality. It was a mentality in terms of trust,

people coming together, taking care of each other and looking out for each other. So you're growing up, you're undersized. looking out for each other so you're growing up you're undersized so who are some when you're growing up who are some of the NBA stars that you like okay I kind of like him I like his game I can good boy it's not a whole lot on but you heard about guys that anybody that you wanted to be like you idolized they were all in my neighborhood and my older brothers and again you gotta remember it

wasn't on television right so we we you know up until i guess i guess 1980 i what 1980 1979 that's when the nba started getting on television but i I was a senior, you know, senior freshman in high school. Right. Senior freshman in college. Right. So growing up, I always wanted to be like guys in the neighborhood. You always say to somebody's move. My older brother always tried to imitate him. Still a lot of his moves. And then there was a guy by the name of Sam Puckett, who actually was my brother's rival at another school. Okay. I tried to imitate some of his game too. So obviously coming from Chicago, I mean, normally when you hear about basketball players,

you hear about Chicago, you hear about New York, you hear about the big cities. So you go to Indiana. What was the thought process of going to Indiana? I'm sure you had heard some of the stories about Coach Knight, and then it's reported that your brother and Coach Knight get into it when he comes to recruit you. Well, that's true. And by the way, if you hear something scratching, that's my dog behind me. I saw him walk in.

Yeah, and now most people probably think I got a big dog, but, hey, that little fella, he tough now. But, you know, I didn't make the decision to go to Indiana. That was made by my mom. And again, back then, remember, your mom and your dad, they had the hammer. Right. I'll never forget, you know, my mom, you know, called the press conference and she said my son has made his decision he decided to go to indiana university and play for coach knight and i was like this and and yeah he and my brother they got into it and they got into it they got into a pretty big fight. And the reason why-

What happened? What was it about? Well, Coach Knight was recruiting me to come to Indiana in Bloomington, Indiana. Right. And the next town over from Bloomington was Martinsville, Indiana. Okay. The plan started there. Right.

And the plan has a big presence in in the state of indiana right and and so my brother you know uh he asked coach knight he said uh well you know when juniors down there because that's what they call me in the family they said when juniors down there if if something was to go down with the Klan, who's going to take care of him? And, you know, I thought it was kind of a funny answer. Coach Knight said, well, if we're winning, they will. We just kind of laughed it off. Right.

My brother didn't think that was funny. Right. So he's like, oh, you know, he went into his thing. Right. My brother didn't think that was funny. Right. So so he's like, oh, you know, you know, he went into his thing and. Right. You know, and so they they got into, you know, a little back and forth. And then my brother said, well, hey, we can take this outside. And Coach Knight stood up, took his jacket off, rolled up his sleeve and was like, yeah, we can take this outside. And, you know, everybody in the house, we were panicking. Oh, no, no.

You know how households are. Oh, no, no, no. Now, Shannon, you know, let me paint the scene. So we, at that time, we got no lights. We pour is pour. So all our meetings have to be in the daytime. Right. So it's meetings have to be in the daytime. Right. So it's about 4 o'clock.

And, you know, again, we got, you know, it actually was a big roach crawling behind Coach Knight's head. Oh, man. You know, and it was like we were sitting there like, go away, go away, go away. They don't come out until you have company i feel right right and sorry about my dog but anyway so now it's getting to be a little dusk and and i remember you know so the scuffle you know started happening not a scuffle but the back and forth right coach knight took off his jacket and we was all no no no no and you know it's that

one person in the room who ain't moving ain't doing nothing right my mom my mom was looking at him like shaking her head and I was like oh she like him him. And so that's how it went down. And my mom and my sister, he came in and he said, I'm going to offer your son three things. A, he's going to graduate from college. B, he's going to be a gentleman. And C, everything that I know about basketball, I'm going to be a gentleman and see everything that I know about basketball. I'm a teacher. And that was it. Isaiah, at the time that you went to college, were your father alive? My father was alive. Now, the interesting thing about my father, my mother and my father. And and again, you know, people who were coming up in the 60s you you will notice um you know so we had to

go on welfare so when you go on welfare i mean the u.s government was really breaking up your family because the man couldn't be inside the household right and so my father had to leave so we can get on welfare get the welfare check and then they started having teaching and everything else but my mom my dad when he looked at indiana he did not like me playing basketball okay my father didn't like nothing about entertainment my father was everything about books learning getting educated because this is the way you're going to make it in this world. Right. Don, if you think you're going to make it in this world, bouncing a basketball, that's not how you're going to make it.

You're not going to be, you know, and his beliefs was, you know, entertainment, you know, wasn't the door or the avenue for you to make it. It was education. And those were his beliefs. Isaiah, the reason why I asked you that, because I don't know how many people know this but we know this because we come from black families the older brother took on the role as the father if the father wasn't in the house and because you said your brother your older brother had this conversation that let me know okay when somebody when the father was absent, he's the man of the house.

He took on that responsibility. Yes, he did. And even though, and it's well documented, my brothers, after the Vietnam War, everybody fell into heroin and cocaine. And my brothers, a couple of them died. One of them had HIV. And so it was a very difficult time during that period of time. But the messages that they were always giving me. Right. On their hard times was, hey, don't don't do what we're doing. Right.

Can do something else. And Shannon, I never forget, you know, now you got me going down memory lane because when we start, when we're talking about my brothers, you know, everybody got the hand-me-downs. Right. Oh, yes. So me being the youngest, right? Oh, you got, you got three or four deep hand-me-downs. Three or four deep, but I couldn't fit my brother's clothes. So you know whose clothes I could fit? Your sister's? My sister's clothes. I got my sister's clothes so you know whose clothes i could fit your sister's sister's clothes i got my sister's clothes so you button up on the left side too i'm wearing a i'm wearing a jean and you

know we knew man those are girl jeans so i'm having to fire on people in elementary and junior high because they talk about i'm wearing girl jeans so i I got the fire on them. I said, I ain't got no choice. That's how I got good with my hands. That's how. I was like, okay, well. On graduation day, I had on my sister's black patent leather boots. And I had on her flowered red blouse with a hood on the back. And I had on her Providence St. Mel blazer.

That was my graduation outfit in eighth grade. So you go to, you go to Indiana. What was it like playing for coach Knight? I mean, we hear all these stories, but I've never talked to anyone that actually played for coach Knight. You hear these stories about guys that, that played for him, but I've never actually talked to someone that actually played for coach Knight. You hear these stories about guys that played for him, but I've never actually talked to someone that actually played for Coach Knight. So what's that like?

So the stories that we all heard about him being a strong disciplinarian, I was waiting for that. But what I found was that in our style of play the way we played there was great freedom but with that great freedom came a great responsibility so shannon we never had an under out of bounds play we never had a play there was no we never came down and said, Hey, 22 out. You know, we never, it was, it was all about reading and reacting, knowing your teammate, understanding your teammate and making the right decisions every single time. So we, the way we play, it was, The way we played, it was very free-flowing, and it was hard to scout because he believed, just like I believe, that pattern offense, and you know this from football, when I can scout your pattern and I understand your tendencies, then as a defensive player, I got a good chance of stopping you. Right.

But if I don't, and in basketball, what he gave us is the ability to always go left or right. And you had to make the right decision. Now, he would come back and then we would watch it on film. And if you went left and it was the wrong decision it was it was always hell to pay right making the wrong decision well if he's getting that leeway in the game what was practice like because practice got because for someone to have that kind of trust in you in the game you the the the practices have to be held, Isaiah. The practice were intense. So the intensity and the concentration and the energy that you had to

bring to practice every single day, you got taught to always be at your maximum. Right. be at your maximum. You got taught to always think at your maximum. And you got taught to always concentrate at your maximum. There was never letdown. And when there was a letdown, again, there was hell to pay for a letdown. So being able to sustain that level of intensity, that level of concentration, that level of concentration, that level of energy. Whenever you played against your opponent, it was just a matter of time before he wore down. And being a smaller player, I have to depend on the bigger player to make a mistake. Because if you're bigger, faster, stronger, then in sports, sports athletically you're going to beat your

opponent nine times out of ten right the only way that smaller player has an opportunity to win is when you make a mistake and now i can capitalize on your mistakes right So what I pride in my cell phone is mentally wearing people down. So if it's a two-hour game, I'm going to mentally exhaust you for two hours. And some people will get mentally exhausted in 15 minutes. Excuse me. They may get exhausted in 15 minutes. Some may get exhausted in a half hour. And'm talking i'm not talking physically but you know shining from from playing football that the the level of concentration that you guys have to to run that pattern every single time run it with intensity run it with concentration run it with speed and and you may only get thrown to maybe six times or four times that game.

Correct. But you have to run that route with intensity and speed and concentration every single time. Because I got to think I'm getting the ball. But see, the difference between basketball and football, Isaiah, is that in football, all I have to do is worry about what I need to do offensively. You also got to worry about defensively. You got to worry about the back pick. You got to worry about all this other stuff. worry about the back pick you got to worry about

all this other stuff okay yes i'm running the offense i'm in charge of the offense but i also got to make sure that rodman and sally and mahorn and lambert all these guys here come to pick here come to back pick here come to down screen so you got to call out all those signals also yeah and this is and this is where this is where now everything that you just described, now when you're my opponent, I am going to make you hit every one of those screens, every play for 48 minutes now. Right. You're going to – that's what we call tap-tap. Right. You're going to get tapped offensively and defensively every time you move. Right. And that frustrates players. Right.

Who wants to get a back pick, right? And then you're going to get another screen. Then you're going to get another screen. And then offensively, when you got the ball, when you're going through the lane, okay, we're not going to let you run. We're not going to let you run your route the way you want to run your route. Right. All right?

You may want to run it down and out. No, you ain't going to. For everybody to come through the lane, they're going to catch a hip from a horn, a lamb bear. Hey, Ronnie Lott is in there. Ronnie Lott is in it. So if you want to go over that middle, hey, go ahead. Isaiah, I got to be honest with you.

The first time that I saw you, I was watching the 81 National, the Final Four, and you guys were playing Carolina. So I was a Carolina fan. So I kind of wanted Carolina, and I thought they were going to win because they had a really good team. They had Jimmy Black. They had Al Wood. they had James Worthy. And I was like, they ain't got nobody but this little guy. They can't beat, they can't beat Carolina. Man, y'all blew the doors off them. Yeah, we, I think we ended up beating them by 13 points. Yeah. But if I'm not mistaken, Isaiah, that was also, I think the day, that day,

there was an attempted assassination on President Reagan. Do you remember that? Yeah, I do. We were actually in our hotel room. We were watching all my children. And I'll never forget, you know, we all sitting around and we watching you know the stories of the soap opera at that time that's what they call them the stories that's what they call them and uh i'll never forget they they said you know we interrupt this program and steve risley you know he was always sarcastic and everything. He goes, not again. The president's been shot. And they came on and said, hey, you know, we interrupt this program. You know, president's been shot.

And Risley was like, wow. And all of us at that time was just like, you know, in a state of shock. Right. Watching what we were seeing. And we didn't, at that time, it didn't dawn on us that the game was even potentially being thought about being canceled. And this is the beauty of Coach Knight.

Coach Knight was able to keep us focused. And while all the talk was going on about, well, should the game be played? Should the game not be played? We were always singularly focused on the game is getting played. It's getting played at this time. And this is what we have to do. Right.

That was our only focus. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news, previews, recaps, and analysis delivered straight to your podcast feed by the time you get your coffee. No dumb hot takes here, just smart hot takes. We'll talk every single game, every single week, but I can't

do it alone, so I'm bringing in the big guns from NFL media. That's Patrick Claiborne, Steve Weiss, Nick Shook, Jordan Rodrigue from The Athletic, and of course, Colleen Wolfe. This is their window right now. This is their Super Bowl window. Why would they trade him away? Because he would be a pivotal

part of them winning that Super Bowl. I don't know why, Colleen. Catch the podcast, the NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal every day. Subscribe today and you'll immediately be smarter and funnier than your friends and who doesn't want that listen now on the iheart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast nfl daily with greg rosenthal

five days a week you'll get all the latest news, previews, recaps, and analysis delivered straight to your podcast feed by the time you get your coffee. No dumb hot takes here. Just smart hot takes. We'll talk every single game every single week,

but I can't do it alone, so I'm bringing in the big guns from NFL media. That's Patrick Claiborne, Steve Weiss, Nick Shook, Jordan Rodrigue from The Athletic, and of course, Colleen Wolfe.

This is their window right now. This is their Super Bowl window. Why would they trade him away? Because he would be a pivotal part of them winning that Super Bowl. I don't know why, Colleen. Catch the podcast, the NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal every day. Subscribe today and you'll immediately be smarter and funnier than your friends. And who doesn't want that?

Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news, previews, recaps, and analysis delivered straight to your podcast feed by the time you get your coffee. No dumb hot takes here, just smart hot takes. We'll talk every single game, every single week, but I can't do it alone, so I'm bringing in the big guns from NFL media. That's Patrick Claibon, Steve Weiss, Nick Shook,

Jordan Rodrigue from The Athletic, and of course, Colleen Wolfe. This is their window right now. This is their Super Bowl window. Why would they trade him away? Because he would be a pivotal part of them winning that Super Bowl. I don't know why, Colleen. Catch the podcast, the NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal

every day. Subscribe today and you'll immediately be smarter and funnier than your friends and who doesn't want that listen now on the iHeartRadio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast so going into the game obviously two powerhouses uh indiana had won the 76th national championship game that was the undefeated season that was the last time a team had gone through, gone through a season undefeated Carolina is a blue blood powerhouse going into the game. What's your thought process.

So my thought process was that all those players you just named. So they had James or the Sam Perkins. I was on the 80 Olympic team without wood. They got boycotted. So their back line was the best back line in basketball. Al Wood, James Worthy, Sam Perkins. And I knew that, okay, we were a good enough basketball team defensively, but talent wise, they just had more talent than we did. Right. So my game plan was to just try to keep it close and i understood dean smith's substitution pattern you know he he he would they would platoon they they they five guys in and out

and so when he took worthy and i would out i I was like, okay. You were going attack mode. When the second team came in, okay, yeah, now we can catch up. Because if you remember, we were down early in the game. Right, yes. And it looked like they was going to blow us out. And then when they made that substitution and we stayed in, that's when we came back and we was able to, know get it get it close at the half right we're coming out the third quarter and we had to jump on a quick uh i think i

made uh two steals in a row that got us up and once we got up defensively i just thought they would have a hard time because at that time i thought, well, history says we were in a tournament. I don't know if there's been a team as dominant and determined as we were that year because every single game we won by double digits. And actually Carolina was the closest game we had and we beat them by 13. So did you know going into the game,

what was the determining factor of you leaving Indiana after your sophomore season? Did you know going into the game, win, lose, or draw, I'm out of here? I had no money. We came back from Hawaii from the Christmas tournament. Okay. And I came back and there were no lights in my house. Now, this is the day of the winter.

No lights, you know, the gas turned off. My family, you know, was all in different places. Right. And I didn't know where anybody was because we didn't have a phone. You know, you couldn't call and find out. Right. And I'll never forget just trying to figure out where to go. And lucky enough for me, you know, you couldn't call and find out. Right. And I never forget just trying

to figure out where to go. And lucky enough for me, my girlfriend, who's my wife now, she had dropped me off at the house because she had a car. Of course, I didn't. And she drove off. And for some reason, she turned around and came back. And had she not come back, you know, I'd probably end come back you know I'd have probably end up you know walking to my aunt's house and trying to find a place where everybody was but you know we we would lose extremely poor and when they when they said hey man you can make some money by going to the NBA and I said just playing basketball I was like for for real? He said, yeah, all you got to do is declare hardship.

I said, well, I'm hardship. It's really hard over here where I'm living. Yeah. So we talk about Chicago basketball players, yourself, AD, D-Wade, D-Rose, Antoine Walker, Maurice Cheek, Tim Hardaway, Sr., George Mikey, Mark Aguad, Terry Cummins. Hey, y'all got a nice little stick out there, Isaiah. Yeah, we've done all right.

We got – I tell you, my high school graduating class, these are the NBA players and NBA champions. Okay. Myself, Mark Aguirre, Doc Rivers, Craig Hodges, Daryl Walker, and I'm missing one more. Um, Oh, I'm missing one more, but we had six out of my high school class that went on to win NBA championships. So you and Mark Aguirre were the same year.

Yeah, we know he was a year ahead of me. Right. 78, 79. Right. Oh, I'm sorry. Eddie Johnson. Okay. Yes. with the same year yeah we know he was a year ahead of me ahead of you right 78 79 right oh i'm sorry eddie johnson okay yes so you declare you go um i think if i'm not mistaken mark aguar was the first pick in your draft right you were number two i was number two so did it matter i mean because now you know guys guys, you know, yeah, it doesn't matter as long as I get drafted. But guys deep down really want to go to Team X or Team, you know, Team Y.

Did it really matter where you were going? You were just like, I'm going to the NBA. I'm going to be getting a check once a month, twice a month, however it's going to be, but I'm going to have some money in my pocket. So I'm a Midwest boy, and I wanted to go back home to chicago right and mark aguirre and i both were trying to you know rig the draft we both can get to chicago because chicago had the fourth pick in the sixth pick okay and and we were trying to drop all the way down to four and six so every interview we did you know with the teams that were above us right well we just blew the interview nah you know and and i'll never forget

when i when i interviewed in detroit it was jack mccloskey and will robinson okay and and jack mccloskey uh you know, every question that he asked me, you know, I would answer it wrong. And, you know, I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to drop. I'm trying to get people not to like me. Right. And I'll never forget, he looked over at me, he goes, I know what you're doing.

I just want you to know it ain't going to work. Number two, I'm taking you. I was like, all right, the gig's up. Gig's up. So you go to Detroit. And so what are you thinking? You're like, man, how are we going to turn this around? I mean, Detroit, I mean, because at that time,

basically the Eastern Conference really, it was like a three-conference team, but it was really two. It was the Sixers, it was the Celtics, and you sprinkle in a little of the Bucs. But basically, it was the Sixers and the Celtics. And you knew that's what you, and they were young Celtics. They were young.

Yeah, so I never looked at, I never looked at we couldn't do it. Right. The question I asked myself is, how long would it take for us to do it? Okay. And what did I have to learn? Okay. Because, you know, winning in high school is one thing.

Then winning in college is another. Coming to the NBA, there's always an educational curve. Okay. What I had to do was I had to go to school. And I really went to the school of the Celtics and the Lakers. I was fortunate enough that I was friends with Magic Johnson, Dr. Buss, Jerry West, Kareem, all of them let me into their inner sanctuary in terms of how they win, how they lose, how they prepare, what their tradition was all about, how an organization works.

Okay. Because in Detroit, we had none of that. Right. And then, fortunately enough for me, ML Carr was in Boston. So ML and then Kevin McHale, who I played on the Pan Am team with, was friends with him. So when Boston and L.A. was competing, I was in one of their locker rooms all the time taking notes. And I was at every every finals game just learning and educating myself on how to win, how to be a champion and understanding what the pressure would be like in those buildings. Right.

Because I knew at some point in time I was going to come there and beat them. Right. And that's what I did. That's never happening. There's no way a team will allow a player from the opposing team, regardless of who you are. They're not allowing you in the locker room now. Little do they know. Did they know what you were doing?

They just thought you were being friendly. No, absolutely. They knew. I told them. And that's why I say I was fortunate. Right. I was fortunate that they allowed me to come in and learn. And this is where I give the Lakers and the Celtics credit because they were great champions.

Not only were they great champions, but they were great teachers. They would teach you. You know, they would tell you, you know, what you did wrong, what you need to do. You know, it was like, you know, it was like when Muhammad Ali was fighting, you know, Leon Sp was like you know it's like when Muhammad Ali was fighting you know uh Leon Spinks you know and he would grab him he go right which yeah it's it's so so they were great teachers they were great mentors and everything if you look back at the Detroit Pistons and all bad boys in terms of all trajectory, you can chronicle it.

Everything that the Celtics and the Lakers did, we emulate it, we implement it, and also act it. So they were great teachers. We were great students also. So you mentioned when you came in, okay, you come in in 81. Bird had arrived in, you know, 79. And so they got a young dominant team. Bird, McHale, Parrish.

They had Nate Archibald. Then Nate Archibald leaves and they come in with Dennis Johnson. And then they bring in, you know, they have Bill Walton they just had a a cast of characters and like did you like when is this gonna happen no so so again you the my training has always been you know um you know mental physical okay four is to one okay so i was taught and trained how to take the physicality out of a game okay oh so so people who are bigger stronger faster jump higher than you or blessed with a genetic gene i'm going to eliminate all of that and now i'm gonna make you play basketball okay so and and once you make them play basketball

then there's a certain frustration that that comes along with that unfortunately for myself at that period of time Bird, Magic, Kareem, Mikael, Dennis John you're talking P.E. level, man. You're talking basketball IQ that's just off the chart. Right. Not only, so there was no wearing those guys down mentally. It was only can you understand what they're doing and gain knowledge. Right. Then put it on the rest of the league right so um you know as as time went on um the the Lakers got a little older the Celtics got a little older and you know

we were we were going to come and we were young going to come but not only were we young going to come we had an intellect and an intelligence that was coming along with that, which made us extremely dangerous. It's like when you look at that Celtics team, the 86, 87 Lakers Celtics teams, those are looked at as two of the best teams to ever play, two of the top five teams to ever play basketball in the NBA. Well, in 87, we had the Celtics beat. In 88, we had the Lakers beat. That's how good a basketball team we were. So once the play you made to play, Birdstall, you know, we know the call.

Birdstall ain't passed to DJ. DJ lays it up. Obviously, that had to hurt because you're like, we got him dead right. We got him. What I've been trying to accomplish since 81, since I arrived here in Detroit, it's about to happen. Yeah.

What's going through your mind that offseason when you knew you had them and you let it slip away I got one more lesson to learn and next year I'm gonna beat them right because because I had them right I had them and and and you saw the next year we came back and beat them. Right. And that game five that I made the mistake in Boston, go back and look at the next year, my game five in Boston, what I did. Just go back. Have one of your stat guys go back and look at the next year game five in Boston. Oh, y'all gave them that work. Hold on.

They took one game. They might have took, what was it, 4-1 or 4-2? 4-2. Yeah. Yeah, but it was – I think they were mentally done. Yeah, they were a champion. They were mentally done, and you hit the right word. There's only so long that you can sustain that concentration. But again, what I love about

Boston is they were great teachers. Right. They were great teachers. I don't think people understand the mental and the physical toll it is to start playing in October and finish your season every year in June. Because that's what the, because you remember like in the early part of the eighties, it was Celtics every year represented basically the East before you guys came over. It was the Celtics battling the Sixers to represent the East. And they were going against the Lakers. And it was that every single year. So if you go back like from 80, what, 83? So basically it was the Lakers in 80, it was the Lakers in 82, it was the Lakers in 83, it was the Lakers in 85,

it was the Lakers in 87, 88, 89, in the finals. We're not talking about no first round. We're talking about the NBA finals. And then it was you guys. You guys were battling the Celtics every year in the Eastern Conference finals. And then you go. You represent the Eastern Conference in the finals year after year after year. And it takes a grind.

We saw the grind that it took on Golden State last year, Kevin Durant. And that was only three for KD. The other guys had gone to five. And you see the toll that it took on them physically. Yeah. When you're the champion and you're the best and you prepare every night to be the best, there's an opponent that's bringing his best every single night to play. So there really are no nights off. And then when you're the best player, there are certain standards that you have to bring to the game every night

because not only are you a good player, but now you're a performer also. So the audience is paying money to see you play. So not only do you have to play, but you also got to give a good performance. And this is, you know, so Magic and I, you know, we're very friendly with the Jacksons. And this is what we learned from watching the Jacksons and Michael Jackson that summer and that whole two years that we toured with them, is that the energy that they brought every single night and the performance that they gave no matter who was in the audience no matter where they were playing you got the best out of them every single show and it was like okay there are some people that can give a concert

but then a Michael Jackson concert is different now yeah because he got to perform yeah he can't have an off night that's right so you're the star of the basketball when you're the star of a team you can't have an off night you have off night so that's what i tried to bring to my my game i tried to bring that that what mich Michael Jackson can, can make a person in the 20th row feel an emotion that he was feeling when he would moonwalk or he would hit a move and a guy in the 20th row would be like, well, I wanted to make that fan feel that whenever I would like hit a good move, I would want that, that person in the stand to feel that whenever I would like hit a good move, I would want that person in the stand to feel that emotion that I was giving off and that energy. Because it felt good to me,

I wanted them to feel that good too. I know it's hard, but you played in arguably the greatest era, the 80s that we've seen. How would you rank Bad pistons showtime lakers the big three celtics uh the bulls at the tail end although they didn't win they were on the they did to you what you had did to the celtics and the lakers they were stalking from an outside position how would how would you rank how would you rank the dynasties of the 80s? So you'd have to rank the, you know, Lakers, Celtics, arguably one or two, you know. Okay. 1A, 1B, depending on, you know, do you like vanilla ice cream or chocolate ice cream? But it's still ice cream, you know.

Right, right. And in Philly, that period of time with Moses and Dr. J, you know, in the eighties, um, you know, you got to give him their, their respect too. I think we will probably be, you know, in, in the eighties, uh, we will be somewhere in there as a basketball team. Now, talent wise, the Lakers, the Celtics, the 76ers, we cannot compete with their talent. But as a basketball team, as a unit, I would venture to say that our basketball team as a unit was just as good as their teams. just as good as their teams.

However, if you're just breaking it down by talent, we did not have the talent that any of those teams had. But not having the talent is really what made us even more special because we didn't have the luxury that they had. Right. You didn't have all those – I mean, the Lakers are littered with Hall of Famers. They got six or seven. We know about Kareem and Magic and James Worthy and Jamal Wiltz and Bob McAdoo. We know about those guys. Norm Nixon was a heck of a player also. And you know about the big three Celtics. But people don't realize Dennis Johnson was a finals MVP and a defensive player of the year. Bill Walton, Bill Walton was an MVP.

He was a finals MVP. People don't realize just how good those teams were. And you took them down. I know everybody's going to say, well, you know, they got no, but you still beat them. Nobody else beat them when they were getting old. No, no, it wasn't. It wasn't that they were getting old.

We were that good. So, and so I i gave you 86 87 those were the two best teams right in 87 we had them beat you did in 88 we had the lakers beat so we we were that good. Right. Now, when you look at Philadelphia, the Lakers, and the Celtics, every one of those teams that we just named in the 80s that were champions, all of them had three or four top 50 players on their team. Yes. Not one. They had three or four top 50 players on their team. Detroit Pistons, and this is why I say we were a

great team. I was the only one as a top 50 player on my team. That's how good a unit we have become to compete against teams that had three or four top 50 players on their team. Yeah, I think the Celtics had like five because the big three, DJ and Bill Walton. Yeah, a couple of times. Hey, we ain't going to talk about it.

Isaiah, you caught a lot of criticism. And people say, well, he just hating. He just upset. You said, Michael wasn't my competition. I never chased Michael. I was chasing Larry and Magic. I was chasing the Celtics and the Lakers because they had what I wanted.

Michael never had what I wanted. He was chasing me. I wasn't chasing him. Explain what you mean by that. You know, just head to head, you know, I was dominant over him. Right. When all teams met, you know, when you go back and you look at until 91, when I, when I, when I basically had career end in wrist surgery.

Right. Up until then, you know, my record against, against, against him and his team, you know, it was, it really was a competition there. And, you know, you know and and most people think like we're you know i'm five years older than him but we're only a year apart year two a year and a half apart uh so but you know he just wasn't my competition now He didn't have anything that you wanted. He didn't have no trophies? No. And like I said, my focus was Bird, Magic,

Dr. J, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Okay. Those were the guys. Right. You know, I don't care what anybody say. You can go back and look at history. Those were the guys. They were. Dr. J, Moses Malone, Larry Bird, Robert Parrish, Kevin McHale,

Kareem, Magic, James. Those were the guys. Right. Because back then the Celtics were putting four players on the all-star team. They had their three big guys and Dennis Johnson. I'm like, the East would look like the Celtics. I'm like, hold on, wait a minute.

Is there anybody else in the East? Yeah. Well, there was Milwaukee. Because remember Milwaukee. Milwaukee was good. Terry Cummings. They had Bob Lanier. They had Albert Robinson.

They had Mike Reed. They would lose to every game. Milwaukee would lose to Philadelphia or Boston. Yep. Seven games. Yep. And that's how good Boston in seven games. Yep. And that's how good that Milwaukee team was. Yep.

I remember like yesterday. Yeah, so Chicago, I mean, and I'm from Chicago and I'm from the west side, but, you know, Jordan was, you know, he dominated a different era. Right. If you put Jordan in our era, you know, he lost a lot in our era. Right. Who would you say are the five toughest players that you've had to face? Again, you know, and you can just go back to winning records, right?

You know. Right. Magic. Kareem. Okay. Bird j and then i would say jordan look i believe knowing you the little bit that i do you're speaking like you have to understand when i came in in 81 the l Lakers and the Celtics basically dominated. Michael was great, had great highlight reels, but he wasn't winning anything. See, people look at what he did in the 90s and they try to transport that back to the 80s.

But that didn't happen in the 80s. No, and you got to understand, i play a different kind of game so as i said to you earlier your genetic gifts right i'm going to eliminate all of that and now we're going to play basketball and it's going to be about our mental stamina, you know, because I can't jump higher than some. I can't out-height some. I can't out-weight some, but I can out-think a lot. Right. So what I'm trying to understand, Isaiah, is that people, you said you learned from the Lakers, from the Celtics, and you implemented that to the bad boy Pistons. So you brought a mentality. So why do people criticize you for the type of basketball that your team played? Do they not remember the Celtics and the Lakers snatching each other out the sky?

Do they not remember them knocking each other in the front row? Why is it that the bad boy Pistons get this label but pretend like the Lakers and the Celtics were playing such beautiful basketball? When they were just as physical and you learned that style of play because you felt the only way that you could beat the bully was to bully the bully. You felt the only way that you could beat the bully was to bully the bully. Well, what the bad boy Pistons also did was we stepped out of the sports arena. And we started critiquing society from a race, class, gender, sport. So we started talking about race. We started talking about all the things that the champions talk about when coming from all community.

When the champion gets the mic, he or she has to speak for what's going on inside the community. Right. So you have the voice, so you speak for the voiceless. Right. One of the things that I was saying at that particular time about critiquing our industry, about we wanted, we needed more, more officials who were of color like us. We needed more coaches who were colored like us.

And by the way, the media that was covering us at that time, if you remember, females weren't allowed to even cover the sport. They were just breaking into the sport. It was really all white male men who covered all sport and the perspective that they had of us and of me was all the public read. Now I grew up on the West side of Chicago and we just chronicled my whole childhood and everything else. The first time I was called a thug, listen to me closely when I was in the NBA playing for the Detroit Pistons by a white Caucasian male who described me and my play as a thug and thuggish. I've lived my whole life and I've never been called a thug. But now I get to this arena and this playing field. And now the and what I talked about then was the labeling theory. I said, all the negative labels that you are attaching to us. visit us. Everyone knew in the NBA what we stood for and what we were speaking about in Detroit. My no crime day march, all those things were happening. And so there was a certain

backlash because I was pushing that we needed more people of color covering our sport. Right. So the Detroit Pistons today still have two African-Americans covering their beat. I'm proud of that. Right. Okay. Every beat writer that covered our team became a columnist because we were giving them access. So when you look back at what we were doing in the sport, and then me being the president of the Players Association, deregulating agents, putting in agent certifications, and giving the players back their money. Because if you remember, Shannon, remember all them stories of, oh, this player went broke.

What happened to all their money? You don't read those stories no more that often. Right. Because the agents were taking 20% of the player's money off the top, and then they were taking 50% of endorsements tax-free. So when you started to certify an agent, started putting in agent regulation. So, you know, the story around the Pistons and myself has a lot to do with agents, media perception, media talk about us. And so we kind of get pushed to the side. Because you can only hear it out there that's very false about us. Right. Because the person that's writing the story about you and the person

that's reading it, if they don't know you well, this person is writing about him. This is what he's saying about him. It must be true. At that time, yeah. because there was no Zoom. Right. Internet. The only way you could get your voice out was to sit and talk to someone who had to interpret what you were saying. Right. Then they would write it. Right.

Then it would get edited again. Right. write it, then it would get edited again. So depending on what the editor or the writer wanted you to say, that's exactly what you said. So your agency as a person, your ability to communicate, that was all sectioned off. So when this thing came along, internet, Zoom, technology, everything, okay, now you can speak for yourself. sectioned off so when this thing came along internet zoom technology everything okay now you can you can speak for yourself right you got social media so now you got access you can you got your own platform you don't need someone else to tell your story i can tell my own story i'd say before we move on uh you caught i think maybe in your playing days, one of the greatest, I guess, if you want to say turmoil that you got caught up in was in 1987.

And you talked about that game and they went to Dennis Rodman and they asked Dennis Rodman a question. And Dennis said, if Larry Bird was just black, he would be another player. They asked you, you answered, you were chuckling. Yeah chuckling yeah you probably right that was we'd had up until that point i don't know if we'd had anything i don't remember now maybe you go back a little further than i do but i hadn't heard anything and you had to come out in an nba finals game sit on the podium next to lar Larry and explain your side of the story. Elaborate for the people that's younger than Shannon that doesn't remember that.

Well, race and controversy around race in this country has always been a conversation. Yes. Have always been trying to elevate and get ourselves out of this race box that they put us all in. Yeah. And, and in that period of time, I was having a conversation because it was, it was the, I think it was the 25th um anniversary of jackie robertson breaking the color barrier in baseball and and that week all we were talking about was stereotypes do stereotypes it was the 30th what might have been it might have 47 it might have

been the 40th it was the 40th anniversary okay. Because Jackie came in at 47 and that was 87. Okay. Well, thank you for correcting me. I know it was one of those anniversaries. Yes, yes. And so we were talking about stereotypes, race, everything else. And I was having a conversation about how, yes, these stereotypes that you have stuck on us as athletes and also in society, they still exist. And I was using the black quarterback as an example of how the black quarterback in the NFL at that time still wasn't perceived to have the knowledge, the capability of leading the team,

quarterbacking the team, and running the team. I mean, that was all for debate. And I'm saying that was the same in sport. Magic Johnson is giving credit for being a great athlete, but he's not giving credit for being the smartest player in the sport. Kareem, the same thing. being the smartest player in the sport. Kareem, the same thing.

And now Bird had just dropped, you know, I think he had a triple-double on us and it went off. Now, our relationship with the Celtics was always a close relationship. Even though we competed hard, we played hard against each other, but we always had a close relationship. And I can remember telling Bird, hey, Rodman, you know, his first exhibition game, we were in Hartford, Connecticut. And I was telling Bird, like, this one here can guard, he can defend, so forth and so on. Anyway, Bird ended up, you know, giving it to him. But throughout the year, you know,

Rodman was getting a little better and a little better and a little better. Now, we're all frustrated. Everybody's frustrated. And those of us now who have gotten to know Dennis Rodman, back then people didn't know Dennis Rodman, but when you're a teammate, you know who this person really is, what upbringing is about,

what his life is about, who his, who his closest people in his life are about. Right. So Rodman makes a comment. We just got beat and you can, yeah, you can see me chuckling, kind of blowing off the comment. Like yeah, you know, Robin, ha, ha, ha, ha. But here's the mistake that I made. The mistake that I made was that you're never supposed to repeat another person's quote. Right. So, again, back then, Shannon,

we didn't have media training and all that, what we got now, right? Yeah, it was trial by fire, Isaiah. Yeah, so now, you know, Robin makes that and then I repeat his quote. Now it's like, oh, Isaiah said it. So everything that I was talking about

in terms of stereotypes, labeling theory and everything else that was going to be headlines and be talked about. Now, all of a sudden, that narrative shifted and got changed, and we never really got to have the real conversations like we're still having today. You mentioned that you and Magic Johnson are good friends. Is there a difference between Magic Johnson on the court and Irving Johnson off the court? Oh, Irving Johnson will give you anything. Magic Johnson on the court and Irving Johnson off the court?

Oh, Irving Johnson will give you anything. Magic Johnson will cut your throat. When you're competing, and again, this is what the general public failed to see about us as athletes in terms of competition. We can compete and be angry and show all those emotions and passions and everything else that the sport brings out of us. That's what makes us good. But then when the game is over, we can go get a pizza right you know and and that's to me that's the compelling and fascinating thing about us as athletes and I do think this is why a lot of athletes probably sometimes talk

or reference themselves in a third person because Shannon you know the person that you are outside of the lines the lines you're totally different person correct now you can't you can't you you you can't carry you know 84 inside the lines outside the lines you go absolutely not yeah right so I who who did you love competing against the most of Magic, Larry, Dr. J, Kareem, whomever? Who was your who did you love competing against the most? I have to say I would have to say Magic only because of the friendship and then how smart he was. Right. When you talk again, Magic, Kareem, Bird, Dr. J. I mean, them guys. I mean, you. Hey, man, you bring your books to school, you know, every day and you come into the classroom and you take notes because their intellect and their understanding of play, every time you made a mistake, they took advantage of it.

So it would be like if I was to give a football analogy now, it's Tom Brady. Right. You playing against Tom. And Tom Brady ain't fast and everything. But you know what? Every time you make a mistake, all right, you going to give me them five yards? Bam, I'm going to take them five. Right.

You going to give me them five yards? All right, I'm going to take them five. You going to give me them three yards? Bam, I'm going to take them five. Right. You're going to give me them five yards? All right, I'm going to take them five. You're going to give me them three yards? Okay, I'm going to take them three. Right. Oh, you're going to give me them seven? I'm going to take them seven. Right?

Right. So they pick you apart, and they're patient enough and disciplined enough to do the right thing every single time. every single time. So learning from those guys, you know, magic, I would say magic was because he, he and I played the same position and he was eight inches taller and bigger, faster and everything else. But the, the chess game that, that we would play during the course of the game was always, you know, fascinating to me. So you're trying to make, you're trying to make a person play the game from the neck up. I'm going to take everything else. I'm going to take everything else out of the equation.

We're going to play this basketball game. I know we got to put the ball in the hoop, but we're going to play the game between from the neck up and we're going to see who's going to win. Yes. Your genetics are a non-factor. Okay. Right. You're blessed with the genetic gifts of size, height, and jumping ability. Okay.

I'm going to take all that and I'm going to eliminate that. And now let's play. And that takes a lot of mental skill to be able to maneuver in a game like that and eliminate somebody's physicality. And now we're going to play a mental chess game. When you walked away from the game, Isaiah, what did you miss most? Did you miss the game? I was fortunate enough to go right into owning a team in Toronto. Right.

So physically, I knew I was done. My body was shot. I had nothing left. I didn't miss the game as much because now I was able to. You were still around it. You just weren't playing. Yeah. I was still able to think about it, be around it, be about it.

Did you hang out with many players in the offseason? Obviously, you say you and Magic were very good friends. Did you hang out with players in the offseason? No, I was in school. So you remember. I left in 81. I graduated in 87. I went to summer school, double sessions, every year until I graduated okay and that and that that

little dance where you see me dancing around after I make the shot right that was mother's day I was graduating on that day we beat the Atlanta Hawks and my mother who only had a third grade education got to walk across the stage in my cap and gown at Indiana and graduate. Wow. That was a beautiful day. And then after that, you know, I had a family. So hanging out and all that, that was never me. I mean, I really, most people don't know, but I'm really, I was a nerd.

I read a lot, still read a lot. Went back to school, got my master's at Cal in education. Most people don't know that, but I'm really, I was a nerd. I read a lot, still read a lot. Went back to school, got my master's at Cal in education, University of California at Berkeley, got a master's education from there. So I've been in school, you know, all my life, going to school, learning, trying to get better. How do you react when people call you a dirty player? I laugh, I smile. See, that's what, Isaiah, see, that's what, they call you a dirty player? I laugh. I smile.

See, that's what they call you the smiling assassin. He be smiling and all the time he gutting you. Here's what I learned on the west side of Chicago being poor. I'm not going to give you the power

to A, to judge me, or B, put your perceptions on me. I'm confident in myself and knowing who I am, what I'm about. And that really comes from my poor experience of being shamed. from my poor experience of being shamed. Right. And so coming into the NBA, you know, I got food in my refrigerator every day, Shannon.

You know what I mean? And most people don't understand how important that is. Oh, absolutely. I do. Right. So the fact that I got food in my refrigerator, I can put gas in my car, and I got a roof over my head. Hey, man, I made it.

Everything else is, you know, on top. Right. I said, look, I know it was painful because you were on the Olympic team. You were, let me look at this, make sure I get this right. You were male athlete of the year in 1980. You were going to be on the Olympic team. It got boycotted. The Soviet invaded Afghanistan. President Carter said, no, they're not going to show protest because then, if I'm not mistaken, it was in Moscow. That's where it was. Yeah, it was in Moscow. And so we boycotted them. They returned the favor in 84 when it was in LA.

All indication. Everybody says, you pull all the greats. Who's the second greatest? Most people, 95%, 99% of people are going to say Magic Johnson is the greatest point guard ever. The other, Isaiah Thomas. So when the greatest collection, supposedly, of basketball players, okay, I'll agree with that, 11 of the 12 went to the Basketball Hall of Fame. How does that make you feel when everybody keeps saying Isaiah Thomas is the second greatest point guard ever. But for that one year, he wasn't worthy enough for being on the dream team. Because as you mentioned, you won finals MVP.

You're a most outstanding player. You're all-star game MVP. You got a lot of credentials. And I've heard you say it's the only thing that's on your resume that you feel that hasn't been filled in. Yeah. So I was disappointed, I was hurt. I was all of those range of emotions that you could think of, mad, angry, all of those things. But then after that, you know, you root for the team.

Right. You know, that's how I've grown up. You know, I didn't make it, so I rooted for the USA. Yeah, I root for them too. I know you want to win, but Isaiah. Yeah, no, no. I'm not trying to downplay it. Right.

And I'm not trying to blow past it. I do want you to know, yeah, I went through all those emotions. But again, Shannon, where I came from, right? Right. I came from the dirt and less than the dirt. Right. So having disappointment all my life, being disappointed again, you know, dealing with death and everything. I mean, you know, I was going to funerals every week, so there wasn't no more tears left. Right.

You know what I mean? The way I was growing up. So now that I didn't make the dream team, you know, that's another hurt. But it ain't stopping my life. You know what I mean? But, yeah, did I want to be a part? Did I deserve to be a part? Yeah, all that is true.

But the fact is I wasn't. And so now you got to get up. You got to get up. Did you watch the last dance? Yeah, I watched it. I watched it with great fascination, and I watched it with great disappointment. Because you heard a lot of the guys chime in and say, well, Isaiah did it to himself, and nobody wanted to play with Isaiah.

But I've heard so many of these other players say, you don't have to be the best of friends if the common goal is about winning. Well, the common goal was about winning the gold medal. Well, if the common goal is about winning the gold medal, who cares if you're best friend with Isaiah? Hey, you know what? I agree with you. hey you know what i agree with you i'm just using what they say i'm just using what they say they say you do not have to be best friends with a teammate you don't have to go out to dinner we don't have to go to the movies we ain't got to bring our wives and kids together all we're trying to do is win a title so you mean to tell me even though you might not have liked Isaiah, you couldn't set that aside to win a gold medal? So now it matters if you get a loan.

Whereas before, you're telling me as long as you win a championship, because it's hard for me to believe. I know. I played a team sport. Everybody on a 53-man roster ain't friends, and they ain't friendly. So this notion that you need to be best of friends, hold on. Y'all ain't look like y'all all hanging out. Oh, you know, we going overseas. And so everybody's out every night together. I'm sure you're going to have your wife and kids.

Y'all probably would have been touring Barcelona and doing your thing just like everybody else was doing their thing. I don't. That's that's one of the problems that I have, because I follow the game for a long, long time. I have because I followed the game for a long, long time, Isaiah. And I say, I don't care what y'all tell me. Isaiah was one of the 12 best players in the NBA at the time. Well, he ain't the all-time assist leader. I say John Stockton wasn't at that time either. He became that.

I'm talking about at that moment when they're making that selection, Isaiah Thomas was one of the best players. And you can't convince me otherwise. His resume says so. But they let personal feelings get involved in this, Isaiah. Well, after watching Last Dance, it just, you know, and we won't dance around it here. Well, let's don't dance around it then.

Let's get to it. It seems like there was only one person that had a problem with it. Right. And that was Jordan. Now, I didn't, at that time, I didn't realize, and even until I watched the last dance, I didn't realize that he felt the way he felt about me. Because, again, Shannon, I had never had no, you know, bad words with him or anything like that.

We played, you know, his team won and my team won. We went home, they went home. Again, we didn't have the internet. And as you can see, what I saw in terms of the Chicago Bulls, you know, all night life wasn't as good as they were. You know, we weren't, you know, that's not how we and I got down, you know. Right. So most of, and when I look at that dream team, right, I had, I mean, we knew each other, but the only person that I really knew on the dream team was Magic and his personal

relationship. Because again, you know, a personal relationship because again you know I was in school you know I was I was married I was doing my thing I wasn't you know I wasn't I wasn't hanging out like trying to be friends and all that stuff right so there's nothing so and so you believe you believe I mean after watching that that the one guy that had a problem with you was the reason that you weren't on the team. I'm just going by what he said. I mean, that, that's what, that's what the, you know, that's what the tape said. That's what he said. And that's, you know, and, and, you know. said that's what he said and that's you know and and you know because a lot of a lot of people forget Isaiah they said well because when you had beaten them the previous you beat them 4-1 4-2 4-3 and they finally broke through and they beat you guys um and they said that each time that you beat them they shook your hand but I don't know if people remember this.

In 88, when you beat the Celtics, they walked off the court and they didn't shake your hand. Yeah. You remember that, Isaiah? Yeah, I remember that. And by the way- But nobody said, hold on. Nobody said a word about that. It was only became an issue when you guys walked off the court and didn't shake. And look, I'm not excusing what you did, but if you didn't have a problem with it three, four years earlier, why you got a problem with it now? Yeah. And, and, and so, yeah, when the Celtics walked off, right. Um, here's the difference. difference we as the Pistons we never made a big deal right Celtics walking off not shaking our hands they were champions and they deserve to to to go out how they want to yeah and and And we were thankful and grateful for the lessons that they taught.

And now we go on to try to beat somebody else. Right. We never sat around and said, oh, you know, and Mikael and I are good friends still today. Right. And before Dennis Johnson and all them guys, before Dennis Johnson passed and, you know, Larry and I, we see each other today and it's still cool.

But we never we never said, wow, they didn't shake our hand. What poor sports. And we never did that. It was like, OK, they were they were champions. They were exiting and and we moved on. The the other thing that that I would say is. The other thing that I would say is the night before, now we're down 3-0 in the series. You've heard me speak glowingly about the Celtics and the Lakers as champions. And when we were getting ready to beat them and we knew we had the better team and they were going down we wasn't the day before talking about how they were bad and they were this and they were right they're bad for the nba yes

we gave them their respect right now jordan before you know before you know they swept us you know the night before you know he has this big press conference where he he annihilates our team and the one thing that really you know hit us hard is when he called us undeserving champions now you've won super bowls you. You've been a champion. Yeah. Now imagine someone saying that what you earned and what you did, you were undeserving of it. And by the way, it wasn't a coach. It wasn't a media person.

It was one of your peers. Right. What made, why do you think he said that? What made you guys so undeserving? I don't know. These are questions that you have to ask him. Right.

Now, all I can do is speak for us and speak for the Detroit Pistons. So, you know, when we walked off and and lambir said i'm not shaking their hands and this is how we rode we rode as a team we rode right you know it's one for all all for one you know and and lambir was like this is what we're doing so you fall in line and that's right i didn't none of us knew that and that the camera would be on you and right it's supposed to be a passing of the torch shannonette that is some bs ain't never been no torch pass and glorious moment and all right all that narrative around that was just total made-up bs to make one team or one player look bad and another one look good that was it. Isaiah I know you you work for NBA TV and I know you

still follow the game what player you think reminds you of yourself who plays the game like Isaiah Thomas? I'll put it this way I like watching Ky kairi irvin play you that's who i was because he had a rock like you yeah i like watching steph curry play now i don't know if i played as good as them uh but i like watching right um i always thought that, and I looked at all Aaron, I looked at myself as very unique. I looked at myself as a player, you know, as a Picasso, as an original. Right. And so I'll go back to those five players that we named earlier. Kareem, Magic, Bird, Dr. J, Michael Jordan. None of them played

like each other. Everybody was kind of an original. And when I came into the NBA, I looked at myself as an original. So when I look at the nba right now i do see some guys carving out their originality in their own space right i think steph curry has done it i think kairi has done uh other guards uh they're still they're still trying to get there you know and i'm not talking about now somebody said oh you don't like hard and all that no that ain't what i'm saying i'm saying when you look at, you know, guys that have done things that I just haven't seen, like

some stuff that Kyrie do with the basketball, I haven't seen that. It's like you got it on the screen at times. It's a little different. It looks like he's dancing with it or something, right? Let me ask you this, Isaiah, because I find it sometimes in my profession and guys in my era,

why is it so hard from greats of one era to give credit to greats of another era? Oh, he couldn't have played in my era. Oh, he wouldn't have done that in my era. Why is it so hard? It's okay. It's okay, but some of it is true, Shannon. There are a lot of guys who play in the NFL right now. They run across the middle

free. Oh, yeah, yeah. The rules are different. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And you know there are some guys who are running across that middle right now. Yeah. When you was playing, ain't no way in the hell they was going across the middle. They would definitely think twice before going in there with no caution. they would they would definitely think twice before going in

there with no caution absolutely ain't no think twice hey even that's the case though Isaiah you still will give credit when credit's due you you don't you know if a guy's good you like you don't make it about the error you say you can only do in the era what you're doing it in. That's what you do. And so I look at this era and I say I see some of the most skilled, unbelievable shop makers that I have ever seen. Yes. You know, the stuff that Kevin Durant, I've never seen. There was no Kevin Durant in my era. Right.

Seven feet tall, shaking it, shooting it from the back. I hadn't seen that. Right. I'm going to tell you who else. This poor Zingas kid. Right. Ain't no 7'3 dude that I've seen poor Zingas doing. Right.

Okay. Steph Curry stepping out. I mean, this is like pressure time in the game. Him and Klay Thompson pulling from the hash mark. Yes. Yes. Hadn't seen that. The step back three, Isaiah, is, I mean,

because what used to be a bad shot, son, don't take that shot. We can get a better shot. You're encouraging guys now. Guys are taking two dribbles past half court and letting it fly. Yeah, so this – now you've seen it before in the rec league or in the park. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But in the real game. Yes. In the real game, it's like I hadn't seen it.

You know, in all-star games, Isaiah, guys, you put all your stuff on display. You dribble a little bit. You pull up from, you know, from 33. They do this in a regular game. Yeah. For real. They do this in a playoff game. Guys are letting hash mark threes goals in a playoff game.

Yeah. So the NBA right now, skill-wise, it's the best skill I've ever seen. Right. I'm not talking low post game because low post game is the worst low post game ever. Yeah, no more low post game. You got to be able to shoot threes. Yeah. Now, this is the best we've ever seen.

Right. Now, this also is the worst defense I've ever seen in the NBA. When they don't want you to play, people won't score, Isaiah. They don't want no 85-90 game. You know they want 115-122. But I got to critique it now. You talk about the Pistons and you talk about the bad boys. Yes.

We was putting up 112, 110, 107, 108. The Lakers was putting it up. Celtics was putting it up. You know, now that 90s, again, everybody wanted to put the bad boys in the 90s. That wasn't us. That was the New York Knicks with Pat Riley in it. And the Miami Heat. And the Miami Heat.

That wasn't us. Right. New York Knicks with Pat Riley in there. And the Miami Heat. And the Miami Heat. That wasn't us. Right. It's like everybody wants to be the bad boys and act like the Pistons.

Teams can emulate us. We just can't be ourselves because they say it's bad when we the Pistons. I've heard you on several occasions. He prays on LeBron James. Yeah. How impressive is what he's doing at the age of 35 and you're 17 with all the miles, with all the minutes, with all the playoff games, with all the games under his belt? He's still playing as if he's the best player,

which I do believe that he is still currently the best player in the NBA. How is he doing this? We have never seen in the NBA a player like LeBron James. And he breaks a record every single night just to remind you that you've never seen this before. Right. Some people will have a record and they're dominating one category. Some people will have a record and they're dominating one category. But this dude is dominating. He's in the top 10, Shannon, in every category.

That's never happened from the guard position or the wing position in our sport. When it's all said and done, it's going to be hard for people to look back 10 years from now and say he wasn't the best because you can have your emotional best. Right. Right? But what this guy is doing and what he's been doing, I'll put it to you this way. In football, right?

Remember when you first saw Bo Jackson? Yes, I do. Okay. And imagine if Bo Jackson would have stayed healthy and still kept getting better. Right. That's LeBron James. And there's never been a freak in football that's been similar, but they never been a freak like Bo Jackson.

No. Well, we got a freak in basketball. And I ain't talking about the Greek one. I'm talking about the American and LeBron James. We have never seen this type of athlete body performance consistency from a guy this long. Just haven't seen it. You fall in the game closely. The Lakers are about to play in a little while. Who do you like? You got to pick a team.

You got to handicap this. You know, I'm a fan of the little guys. So I still, you know, emotionally I'm tugged for, you know, Harden and Westbrook because I do want them to work. Yes. But like I've been saying throughout this show, when the guy's bigger, faster, and stronger, that guy's going to win. And the only thing you can depend on, the only advantage you may have, is if that guy makes a mistake.

Right. LeBron James, he ain't making no mistakes. Right. So, you know, he going to beat the smaller player most of the time. Because the thing is that when you look at Harden, that's a nice style of play, but so many things have to go right, Isaiah. Think about it. They made 22 threes, and they still only have a little over 100 points.

James Harden and Russ both go for over 60 combined, and they barely have 100 points. Well, when you play in that kind of basketball and you're still not winning, they're like, what else can I do? That's how I used to come home some nights after playing against Magic or Bird. Hey, Coach, we had 22 threes. They still beat us by eight. Coach, we had two threes. They still beat us by eight. Coach, we had two guys, our two stars go off,

and they still beat us by double figure. What else now? What are we turning to now? Yeah. It ain't working. Of all, John Elway was my quarterback. And talking to him, Ozzie Newsome, who's a good friend of mine, he played the tight end position.

He was a great exec for 20 years with the Ravens, drafted a lot of Hall of Fame players, won two Super Bowls. He said, son, putting a team together is a lot harder than actually playing. He said, because when you play, you have some control of the outcome of the game. He said, when you put a team together, he said, you draft the best, you try to sign the best free agents, and it's out of your hands. Yeah. So I remember when I first took the job over in Toronto, and I visited, you know, a couple of people. And I actually visited some of the football people.

I visited Buddy Ryan. I remember Buddy Ryan talked to me and he said, because I was talking about drafting players, everything where you look for. Buddy said, I just want you to remember this that guy that you draft every time he's running up and down the court he's got your paycheck in your in his mouth

but make sure make sure you pick wisely because absolutely that guy that you're coaching or that you're drafting that guy is running up and down the field or down the floor and that guy has his your paycheck in his mouth every night so all which was harder playing coaching or building a team playing really playing absolutely well when you when you talk about winning the championship yes and then you as small as i am in a big man's league right all the rules are are geared against you the small player right and they favored the bigger player. Right.

There is no bigger mountain I had to climb in my professional life than trying to win an NBA championship as a small person and then doing it back-to-back. And that's the thing, though, Isaiah. If we go back and look at it, really, only you and Steph have won championships as the lead as guards, small guards. Now, Magic, but Magic was 6'9". You're talking about you and Steph 6'1", 6'2". So as small guards, as you mentioned, in a big man's league to to be out front, that's that doesn't happen.

to be out front. That doesn't happen. Now, Allen Iverson did get his team to an NBA finals as a small guard, but to ultimately win that prize, that's very unique. In the history of the NBA, we're not just talking about in the last 20 years. We're talking about in the history because the game has always been dominated by bigs, from Mikan to Chamberlain

to Russell to Kareem to magic and bird jordan i guess i mean but jordan jordan wasn't six one jordan was still six six he was six six with a 49 inch vertical so he was just flying over everybody huh i'm saying that genetic gift right it's like i ain't got that you know but that's why that's why i admire steph and i got mad love and respect for steph because you know steph curry in his run he had to beat arguably arguably the greatest player ever. During my run, I had to beat arguably the greatest four players ever at that time. You know, Magic, Kareem, on the same team.

Right. Bird, and, you know, Dr. J. Jordan. People don't realize, like, you know, back in the day, Dr. J was, like, you know, Dr. J, you know, Jordan, people don't realize like, you know, back in the day, Dr. J was like, you know, thought of as the doctor. Dr. J was Jordan before Jordan was Jordan. Exactly. Everybody, you wore those weapons. So you remember the cons. If you didn't have a pair of cons, Dr. J cons.

Exactly. But you made you weren't, you ain't have no shoes. Because Nike, you know, Nike became when Jordan, you know, they made the shoe for Jordan and they took off then. But prior to that, everybody wore Conv or Chuck Taylors. You probably had Chuck Taylors in high school. But the Conv was it. So I would say, you know, Steph Curry, you know,

winning against LeBron James, you know,h curry you know winning against lebron james you know to me that was a that was a huge feat for a small person uh to be able to to defeat him you've enjoyed success on a lot of different levels you're a great college player great nba player you coach you are an exec what would you say was the main reason why Isaiah Thomas was able to enjoy success? I would say being grateful, you know, having gratitude and appreciating what I have, what I was able to accomplish, understanding how difficult it was, but truly being appreciative of, you know, the life that I'm leading and that I've led. I'm living a life that

I never dreamed about. I never knew it existed, the type of life that I'm living. And I'm truly grateful and thankful that I'm in this place and I don't take it for granted. One more thing. Isaiah, were you a trash talker on the court? Was I who? a trash talker on the court? Was I who? A trash talker. Oh, no, I didn't have to talk trash unless somebody was talking trash to me. Now, what I was, I would definitely mess with your mind.

mess with your mind okay it's like um i would i would i would always try to break your trust with with your teammate right no so a lot of times you know you would know the play that's being called and you'd say to the person who you garden i know your guy ain't gonna pass you the ball because he'll never pass it anyway so this is what i'm going to do i't going to pass you the ball because he'll never pass it anyway. So this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to leave you wide open. Let's see if he throw you the ball. And then come back and be like, I told you he wouldn't pass you the ball. People say Larry Bird might have been the greatest trash talker in NBA history. How much did Larry talk on the court?

Larry talked a lot. Larry didn't talk a lot. He backed it up. And I never seen a guy come by our bench and look at our coach and tell our coach, you going to put him on me? Coach, you're going to put him on me? Coach, you're making a mistake. You sure you want this guy to guard me?

And get the ball and score on me. Now, that's ruining your confidence. Yeah, yeah, that's bad. Isaiah, I really appreciate you taking time out today to stop him by Club Shea Shea, giving me a couple of minutes of your time. I really appreciate it. Wish you and your family all the blessings, give me a couple of minutes of your time. I really appreciate it. With you and your family, all the blessings. Give me a couple of minutes. I gave you a couple of hours.

You gave me hour 45, but I ain't want to tell nobody. Hey, Isaiah, I really appreciate it, bro. Appreciate you too. All my life, been grinding all my life. Sacrifice, hustle, pay the price. Want a slice, got to roll a dice. That's why all my life, I've been grinding all my life. I'll see you next time. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news

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