Club Shay Shay - Kirk Franklin Part 1

Episode Date: December 13, 2023

Kirk Franklin, a 19-time Grammy Award winner stops by Club Shay Shay for an unforgettable conversation with Shannon Sharpe. They dive into his illustrious career by discussing his hit songs, Grammy victories, and his prolific songwriting for various artists.  Franklin talks about his current work with Michael Jackson's vocals and the life advice he gave Steve Harvey. The episode serves as a captivating journey through the insights of Franklin's musical odyssey, providing an intimate portrait of a man whose influence extends far beyond the Grammy stage. #VolumeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to the Insiders podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You ain't been to black church in a while. Yeah, but they don't normally share secrets like that. You need to start coming on back to black. No, I better not go back there. They might share some of my secrets. I ain't going over there.

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Only on DraftKings Sportsbook with code Shannon. The crown is yours. The code SHANNON. The crown is yours. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. In New York, call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY to 467-369. In West Virginia, visit www.1800gambler.net. Please play responsibly. In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino and Resort in Kansas,

must be 21 or older in most eligible states, but age varies by jurisdiction. See DraftKings.com slash Sportsbook for details and state-specific responsible gambling resources. Eligibility and deposit restrictions apply. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. Terms at sportsbook.draftkings.com slash basketball terms. Hello, welcome to another edition of Club Che Che. I'm your host, Shannon Sharp. I'm also the

proprietor of Club Che Che. The guy that's stopping by for conversation today is a multi-platinum selling artist, a gifted songwriter, choir master extraordinaire, producer, director, superstar, music genius. He was the first gospel artist to sell over a million copies on his first album. First person to spend 100 weeks

at number one on the Billboard songwriting chart. A 19-time Grammy award-winning artist, inaugural inductee of the Black Music and Entertainment Walk of Fame, television and film executive producer, host, motivational speaker, New York Times bestselling author,

30 years in the industry, a father, a husband, a philanthropist, trailblazer, icon, legend, phenomenon, the king of urban gospel, Kirk Franklin. Lies. Did I leave anything out? Lies. They're all lies. They're all lies.

I thought I came here for something real. I already see where we're going with this. Let's go ahead and start now. Next question. You want the real stuff? Next question. Oh, the real stuff. I didn't know I was going to come here because I've been watching your show.

Yeah. I'm such a fan. Yeah. I love what you do. Yeah. And you're going to bring out notes? Yeah, but see, I got to let my audience know who I'm bringing to the stage But I don't care about them Shannon. I care about you. I come here for you. Okay, okay

We go we don't get you some good stuff we go, but I got to get the real I got to get I got to Get my hand gotta build up. I got a bill Finish finish. I'm just you want me to finish go ahead. Whatever you got to do Please continue. Please. Please. No, no, no, no, no, no no we good we good we good we good bro we're good king thank you thank you for gracing because this is the first time we've had someone what i try to do at club shea shea what we try to do as a team is that we try to bring celebrities entertainers musicians all different walks that has a very interesting story and we're going to get to your story because i believe you have a very very unique and very interesting story and we're going to get to your story because I believe you have a very very unique and very interesting story and so hopefully you can share some stories that you've never told

before but that's the things for the very first time and let our audience get an opportunity to see what love frankly as long as you don't try to make it all churchy get all stiffy as long as you just keep it real swag like you do everybody else don't be coming here I don't want no communion crackers you know I'm saying I don't want none of that you know just you just keep it real swag like everybody else. Don't be coming here. I don't want no communion crackers. You know what I'm saying? I don't want none of that. You know, just keep it real. You already brought me some water.

You got your water? Because I know, as I see you got your Shea Shea Georgie's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and you brought me some water. Can you go over there for me and get some water right quick? Well, if that's what you want to do. If that's what you want to do. Ladies and gentlemen, do you see it right now that I'm getting water poured by one of the greatest athletes

and commentators of our time? Isn't this a beautiful thing? Do you see it right now that I'm getting water poured by one of the greatest athletes and Commentators of my time isn't this a beautiful thing? This is such a blessing Such a blessing, but then you know Jesus turn the water Into wine. So don't well, maybe you can say maybe turn it to car Kurt I want to thank you bro. I really appreciate I know you I know you're a busy man. Thank you, King. Thank you for stopping by. Thank you, King. Thank you. I want to start with your career, and then I'm going to work my way backwards, which

is something very unique because I think you're a very unique individual, and I want to put a different spin on this. This is very nice, too. Thank you. I appreciate that. You know, it's until we get our own establishment. Inspired on. Which we're working on. Let it show. Let it show.

So check this out. OK. You were nominated. You've been nominated 31 times for the Grammy. You won 19. The first time you won the Grammy. What did it mean and what the subsequent Grammys mean? First Grammy I won, I was at home. I was at home. You didn't go to the award show? First time I won, I was at home in the bed. And it was back in 1996. What happened was, and I really hope that you can deconstruct it even more as we begin

to chop it up because I'm an open book. We can talk about anything. Is that coming up sometimes in church, you can be in communities that can be so over religious that it's almost like there's a false humility that people force upon you that you don't want to seem excited. Right. It's because you don't want to seem like you're too worldly. Right. And there was like, how old are you? I'm 55. You're 55. OK, so so so we're the same age. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm 55. You're 55. OK, so so so what does that mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm 53. So, you know, there's this time where anything that looked like it was church was the devil. You remember that back in the day? I do. It drives you crazy now. So a lot of times I would I would acquiesce to other people's view of don't get caught up.

You know, that's the world. You would acquiesce to what people's view of don't get caught up. You know, that's the world. You would acquiesce to what they thought you should be. Yes. And I stayed at home. My first Grammy award, I stayed at home in bed because I didn't want to go and look like I was getting caught up in the world stuff. Right. That's why I didn't go. That's why I didn't go.

And there were other artists that I was around that they had the same type of ideology. And they were older than me because I was so young. Because when I came into the game, I was the young pup. Right. And I wanted to show them that, hey, guys, I want to be like y'all. And I don't want to get caught up in the world either. So y'all downplay this stuff. Well, I'm going to downplay it too.

And it was the growing pains. Right. And so that's where I was. My first Grammy award was it was it was the growing pains and so that's where i was my first grammy award i was at the house i wasn't sick right i could have gone i was at home in bed you mentioned that you stay you downplayed it because you you accu as to what the world thought a gospel musician urban gospel musician should be, how they should present themselves. Where did that come from? It is an ideology from a coach in a generation of biblical illiteracy. So a lot of times when it comes to our people, especially when you talk about something as

colonized as American Christianity, sometimes it can be ideals that people want to make spiritual okay like we take our personal belief systems and we super spiritualize them and try to put them in the canon of scripture and try to make them biblicentric and they're not right these are our ideals these these are our feelings and our opinions that we force upon people and want to make them of God. We want to make our ideas what God would say. And that is so that's such far from the case. So it can be a cultural type of space that sometimes black and brown people and you even see it even in Catholicism, even with a lot of our Hispanic brothers and sisters. So, you know, there there are these things that we force upon people that is part of fabrics that have nothing to do with our faith, nothing to do with our relationship with God.

They have to do with, well, this is how I feel. And when you don't submit to what I think you should do, then you're not being moved to being used by God. Okay. But when I tell people feelings aren't facts, exactly, because you feel a certain way that doesn't make it true. That doesn't make it the gospel. Yeah. So, so when did you realize like, hold on, I'm denying myself. I'm trying to appease a certain group when that's not how I feel. That's not how I think. So when did you say, you know what, I'm going, I'm going to be Kirk Frank. When I started to see that nothing I was doing was working, then nothing I did was pleasing anybody, you know, because then right after that, the next year, Stomp came out and I got crucified for Stomp and I got beat up. So, you know, as I just started to see that nothing I was doing was satisfying a lot of elders, a lot of the community that I'd wanted to please, because, again, being raised, I was raised with no family, no parents being adopted. I had a lot of, um, acceptance issues. I always wanted to be accepted. I always wanted to be liked and I would do anything to be accepted. I would have done anything to be like,

so I would just do them. And so when I started to see that they weren't working, I just kind of slowly started to just become comfortable with either being scrutinized or being an outsider. And then just slowly I just became comfortable in being whatever people thought of me. And I still struggle. I do. I still struggle to this day wanting to be liked and wanting to be accepted by the church community. Because even to this day, people think I dance too much. Right.

You know what I'm saying? I move around too much. And, you know, they've heard me, you know, not always use the most favorable words. You know know I'm saying I move around too much and you know, they've heard me, you know Not always use the most favorable words, you know I'm saying people can see that now I'm a Christian But also got a little me, you know You know, I'm I'm I'm I'm always trying to find a way to show people man I really really love God, but I'm not perfect, right? You mentioned star is That because you dance,

because you move, because the choir is swaying back and forth, is that when you're like, well, hold on, I'm uplifting, and then you come to the realization, I'm trying to appease a group of people that for the lion's share,

I'm not going to be able to appease. Well, first of all, I also saw the post that you posted of a fight in the club, and it was playing stomp, and you reposted it. Do you remember that? I do.

That was funny. So I just think that, you know, it's really trial and error. It's just really the standing and falling and just trying your best to figure out what is best for you. What is the modus operandi for you because i mean even people that love god love jesus everybody don't worship the same way correct you know some people may cry some people may dance some people may speak in tongues so we may run around some people maybe just be somber and still but we cannot put our systems to faith on other people. And I just think with Stomp, Stomp became just this otherworldly thing that we were all trying to figure out. Could Stomp have become the commercial success that it did become had you not put the spin in which you put on it?

Probably not. you not put the spin in which you put on it? Probably not. You know, I think that it, because at the time, Salt and I were becoming friends. She was kind of growing in her faith and we developed a friendship. And so when this remix, when this remix for Stump that came out, which, you know, the George Clinton joined in it and Stump, you know, she heard it and I asked her did she want to jump on it? And she was like, I love it and she really loved it matter of fact she flew to Texas to even do her vocals um where where I live is I think that it was just the perfect storm I I think because we were young I was 27 she was young God's property was young you know because my first because my group was the family God's property was young, you know, because my first because my group was the family.

God's property was a group that I produced. But they were already put together by this incredible lady named Linda Seawright, school teacher. And so I had these young kids that were good looking young kids. They were they were they were they were some hood and they love God. And so everything was just the right marriage at the right time. And I'm very humble for and very grateful. Do you think some of the blowback was because you were so young you know in the church normally is elderly that's leaving us singing that's leading devotional that's doing the prayer you mentioned you're 27 years of age yeah and maybe something

just didn't seem to sit right with the elders that a 27 year old is supposed to be uplifting and serving the Lord is doing. It's kind of like putting, this is not secular music that we grew up with. Yeah. Yeah. And,

and you can even unpack what you've been saying even more is because we all, when we were young, back in that era had to act old to be accepted. You remember that? Like, like, like, like,

like it's funny. Cause people run them to me and I say, yo man, you look younger now than you did back then well because we were acting and dressing old yes because you had to do you know i made our jackets with that you remember yeah the jackets down here the square toe gators and yes from uh city slickers in detroit you remember that yeah freeman's in atlanta freeman's in atlanta boy don't you don't you. David, David Eastman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know,

we were all trying to the point, to the point that also there was a whole generation of us that if we were not married. Yes. You know what I'm saying? They didn't think that

it's like, you know, you can't be single and be out there doing God's work because we know what single people be doing, you know? And so, like, yeah, well, you can still do it even though you're married.

But you got feared into a lot of things that you may not have been ready for. You didn't understand. You didn't know what you were doing because the church coach at that time has such a suppressive, you got to be this, you got to look like that, you got to do it like that. And so when you don't know and then when you have a level of biblical illiteracy yourself you trust in them to give you god's word right instead of realizing that a lot of you they're giving you their word or their interpretation or their intent because it's passed down you know their grandparents and their parents and they just

passed it down exactly and they pass down down down down even, down. Even though it's wrong, they're passing down wrong or what they believe to be right. And a lot of that from that generation was the colonized version of American Christianity, because it was all about controlling black and brown people that did not have a voice. And so that control ideal continued because that's what they were given. You look at the slave Bible and how certain pages were ripped out just to control people. So historically, we understand that Western religions and Western Christianity have also, unfortunately, been tools of of of of also weaponization. Yes. How does you go in? How do you determine like to write a song? Are you like, you know, I heard rappers like, you know, I get up and, you up and I might be asleep and something hit me and I'll get up and I'll start writing.

Or I have an engineer and I'll start recording. When you write your song, do they just come to you or you say, you know what? I think it's time for me to get back into the studio. How does Stomp and How Did I Smile and Melodies, how do they come about? Oh, man, in just a multiplicity of ways. I mean, when God is learning a song, they can come anywhere. I mean, they can come when you sleep,

stoplight, you know, in the bathroom, shower, you know. I mean, many times I've, you know, got them, like I, like, as I was blessed to write a song for a young lady, Tamela Mann, called Take Me to the King. Okay.

I don't know if you've ever heard Take Me to the King. I haven't. if you've ever heard Take Me to the King. I haven't. Yeah, but it's a real big, beautiful song. Young Tamela Mann, isn't she like Meet the Brown Girls? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Have you heard her sing?

I have not. Ooh. Somebody please get this man, Take Me to the King. When this is over, he's got to hear this song. He going to be calling me crying. This big old Negro, this big Negro gonna be calling me crying this big old negro this big negro gonna call me weeping like bruh bruh bruh yeah so so man you know they just come in in in in in just a myriad of ways do you like okay you're you sleep you're like i'm sleeping

do you get up and start writing down or will it stay with you to the morning or are you in the shower do you get out of the shower do you stop what you're doing and start to put pen to paper or can you remember the the sequence in which it so many songs that have blessed people have been written butt naked next question really but But not one sock on. I'd straight out the bed. But if you come over to my house, don't sit on that piano bench. Sit on that piano bench. That piano bench ain't had none but cheeks on that piano bench.

For Jesus. Next question. What do you think? What's Kirk Franklin's? Are you a better singer or Are you a better songwriter? I'm a better singer. I am the worst singer in the world. And I have a career doing gospel music. It don't make no sense. It don't make no sense how God has been able to be so kind to me. And I'm not this great singer. Right. What happened was is that God was so kind enough to give me this gift of songwriting.

Like, I don't know what it was, Shannon, but as a young boy, God would just give me lyrics and melodies. And so by God's grace, man, vividly through the gift of songwriting. Because, Shannon, I don't even know where they come from. I don't even know where these songs come from. They just come from all over the place. And, you know, and and all the songs that the people have heard me do throughout the place. And all the songs that people have heard me do throughout the years, these are songs that God has given me. I have never on any of my albums, on any of my albums, and I say this humbly, I say it dependent on God's grace and kindness, I've never co-written with anyone. I've never co-written. God just give me, God just be giving me these music and lyrics and melodies. God,

just be kind enough to loan them to me. I believe I've never written a song in my life. Every song has been loaned to me. Wow. I believe that. As a young child, were you one of those that always sung in the church? I was the one that was always doing music. I was the one, but it's because I found out early on, I started playing when I was four. The woman The woman that adopted me, she, uh, sold cans and she recycled cans and newspapers to pay for my piano lessons. And so she had a fourth grade education and I was taking piano lessons at four. And so I started playing very young and I noticed that piano playing would get girls attention. Right. So the more girls paid attention to me, man, I done broke my fingers trying to get because that's what brought me attention.

Right. And so I got good at it. Right. Kind of like default. Right. And then what I could do early on, Shannon, is I could flip songs that was on the radio. Right. Like I took a Billie Jean, the Benny and the Jet song by Elton John.

Good, good. I flipped it. He's coming back. I know he's coming back. I said that Jesus is coming back. He said that he is coming back. And I would teach it to the choir. I'd teach it to the kids choir. So I was flipping all these songs, getting in trouble in church because I was doing all the earth, wind and fire it to the choir. I'd teach it to the kids choir. So I was flipping all these songs,

getting in trouble in church, cause I was doing all the earth, wind and fire, cooling the gang joints. And so that's how it kind of just started for me early on. You kind of like a hype man. You kind of like DJ Khaled, cause you get the choir like, see. I'm better looking.

And I move around a little. You're better than Callie. Yeah, Callie got bad knees. Love you, Callie. So how long does it typically take you from start to finish to complete a song? Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news, previews, recaps, and analysis delivered

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It can be in one night. You can write a song in a night? Take me to the king, God give me that song in one night. I smile, God give it to me in a day. Stomp. Yeah, most of the time, most of the time I'm going to labor with a song. I'm not going to let it just ride. Like Melodies from Heaven, I was up at my old high school

and working with high school choir when it got lonely, Melodies from Heaven. 1994. Melodies from Heaven was 1994. Wow. When you're writing, do you have any idea how successful a song is going to be? No. Never. Have you ever been surprised, like, I don't know about this one?

Yes. And it blows away, and you're like, oh, this is a can't miss. And like, dang. I have never had a song that I was confident in. Never. Never. Kirk Franklin. Never.

That don't mean nothing. That don't mean nothing. I'm always shocked. I'm never confident in a song. Never in my life. And I'm not trying to be false humility. Dude, I'm separate children. One of the dopest players in the game.

Bad history. I'm not going to be on any cap. I literally have never had a song that I was confident that people were going to. From I Smile to Looking For You, Melisande From Heaven, Why We Sing, Now Go The Lamb. I mean, My Life Is In Your Hands. Right. All these songs. Why do you believe you've been able to connect with so many people across so many different genres?

I don't know. I don't know. I think that the weirdest thing is for me when the songs do. If there's anything, maybe God kind of took my beginning. And because I was a hip hop dancer, my name is Kid Fresh. When I was back in the day, I could spin on my head. I could rap at Skate and Ring, you know. And I was influenced by urban music.

I didn't get influenced by gospel music until I was about 16. A friend of mine got killed. I was influenced by urban music. I didn't get influenced by gospel music until I was about 16. A friend of mine got killed. And then that summer, I trusted the Lord with my heart that summer and got a little more serious with my faith. But before that, smoking weed on a church parking lot. You know, wild and out back in the, you know, how the churches used to have like the little lock-ins and the teenagers would spend the night in church. Oh, it was a lot of wrong. A lot of wrong going on. It was a lot of wrong going on back in the church.

So, you know, I think that I also think that what gospel music was not doing that I think that I didn't intentionally try to do. I was just trying to get my own help. I think I was just really honest about how I felt in songs. Like, if I didn't believe God was going to do something, I didn't write it. I would write, help me believe. Right. Or, you know, if, you know, like a song like Imagine Me. Like, I was always just trying to be honest in my songs.

I wasn't trying to act like I was already there. Right. It's because I wasn't there. I was struggling. So I think I included a lot of my struggle and where I was in life in songs. And I think maybe, and I can only say maybe because I don't know God's plan, that maybe what it did for people, they said for people, they were like, me too. Right.

You know what I'm saying? I'm there too, you know? And that's the only thing that, that's the only thing I can think of. I don't know because, bro, you don't know how many dope gospel artists are out there. And I know that, you know, it's for whatever reason, maybe because I'm little and whatever. I'm, you know, people see me more or whatever. But, man, there are so many people in this genre, Shannon. They're cold, cold songwriters, cold singers.

And, you know, man, I'm just trying my best to let people know that it's not just Kirk. Kirk Franklin is not only in gospel music. There are so many people that I feel like it's my job to shed light on how many dope, you know, Jonathan McReynolds and Tasha Cobbs Leonard, the Walls Group, Doe. I mean, it's so many hitters out here. So many, Chandler Moore, man, it's some beast in the game do you think because of your age you were able to bring a younger generation into secular music because when I was growing up it was Shirley Caesar it was the Mississippi Mass Choir it was all it was the older now maybe now that I look back at it I mean maybe they weren't that much older, but it was just, they seemed older. They were older than you. Yes. They were older than you. But you, I mean, in your 20s.

Shirley Caesar's 137 years old. That's my mom. I love Shirley. Who were you listening to? Like, did you ever listen to any gospel music when you was back in the day? Well, my grandfather, yeah. Shirley Caesar. But you, you and then you.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not riding around. As soon as they got on the car, we popped something else in. We popped the Earth, Way to Fire, the Bar K, Ohio Players. Yes, sir. The stylistic. Did you ever listen to any of my music back then? Oh, the ones that just came on, like Stomp.

Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Gotcha. So, yeah. So, then you didn't know that there was a whole bunch of like hitters no yeah oh man jumpy key fred hammond have you heard of these guys i have not brother jumpy key fred hammond man just bro just the list i'm talking about is i'm talking about shannon the artist that when beyonce and jodeci would walk into the room right they'd be doing this to these artists because you gotta remember

gospel music influenced black yes absolutely because they grew up whitney grew up in the church everybody everybody so so when they walked into the room and a fred hammond was in the room or the clark sisters was in the room or the Clark sisters was in the room, dude, the biggest pop star, Justin Timberlake, they idolize these people in gospel music. And I think I really do believe Shan that I'm dead, that one of my callings in life is to shed light on the talent and the greatness that exists in my community. on the talent and the greatness that exists in my community. How were you able to get some of the biggest artists from other genres to collab with you?

I'm looking at you got Whitney and Kanye, Mary J, Jill Scott, Lil Baby, Chance the Rapper, Mariah, JT, JB, Demi Lovato, Babyface, Stevie Wonder, Tamar Braxton, Boyz II Men, Salt. How? I don't know. so what's the call okay like man i think i want i mean i would like to have bianca or i'd like to have this so you you just fall in like some and then some are relationships that others may have and say hey so-and-so wants you to jump on something. Or it may be a movie and the studio is like, hey, we want to put you together with so-and-so. So,

it's just been just a multiplicity of moments that have just come from relationships. And then there were also people like Ameri J. Blige or Pharrell. And these are people that were raised in the church that knew the music that I was already doing because they were listening to it in their own private time. So when it was time to do something, they were already acclimated, not necessarily to me, but through the music that I was doing and really loved it. And so, you know, that kind of built some relationships. So it's it's it's it's been a myriad of ways and i'm just very grateful who was in the studio kirk franklin was in all of stevie wonder steve because he's stevie wonder and stevie wonder allowed me to

produce him too now that's what gave me again now that's what gave me bubble guts i got bubble guts because i because i was i was recommending some things for him to do vocally right and it's like and he was cool with i'm like okay i can't believe that he's trusting my compass in this song moment and he did and it was it was you know and i was like and i mean just to have that for me was life changing because you talk about somebody who has just reached over generations. Yeah. Decades. Yes. And, you know, and you talk about goat status, you know, he's alpaca status.

Alpaca, you know. Right. So, you know, to be able to have that was just a very beautiful moment. With Michael, with me. I never worked with Michael. You never worked with Michael. So what would have been like? I've worked with some, but watch this though.

John McClain, who's an incredible guy who oversees Michael Jackson's estate. John McClain got me my deal over at Interscope with Jimmy Iovine several years ago. And John McClain oversees the statement, so they're always reimagining Michael's catalog. And so there have been some projects that I've redone that had Michael on it.

So I'm in the studio listening to Michael's raw vocals. And just so you know, it's been amazing. So what's that like? Because we know, I mean, we grew up with Mike. I'm talking about in the Jackson 5, and then he went off the wall. Big nose Michael. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Little nose Michael.

Afro. And a perm. Baby hair Michael. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we grew up with Mike. So what's it like to hear his voice unfiltered, uncut? It is. It is.

It makes you feel a level of unworthiness that you are experiencing royalty in the room to be able to take all the tracks out. And you can hear just Michael breathing and Michael singing and Michael doing pants. And I'm talking about I've been blessed to work on quite a few projects for Jonathan. I mean, for for for for John McClain, where I'm working on Michael's raw vocals. I'm working with Michael's stuff that he did with his brothers and stuff he did with himself and trying to reimagine it.

And it is like royalty. And the fact that he was that cool, because back then, there was no auto-tune. You know what I mean? No, that's him. That's him. Bro, that's him.

Stomping and breathing while he's singing. It's because everything right now, you know, don't nobody want to hate on the next generation, but everything is so produced. Everything is so filtered down. Overproduced? At times. But the challenge is what's overproduced now

is what people's ears are accustomed to, and so people like it. Right. So if you don't overproduce it, they're going to think that person can't. They don't like it anymore. It's because now music is not music anymore music now is a vibe right it's a vibe and and and and if the music had that vibe and sometimes the vibe is overproduced sometimes the

vibe is slowed down slow the voice down filter the voice down so you're not going under like michael because michael was just breathing sweating and you can you can hit a stank on the microphone, spitting on the microphone. And, you know, that was a great moment for me. Prince, Michael, Whitney, if you had an opportunity to work with those, what do you think that would be like for you? I've had a chance to work with Whitney. How's Whitney's voice? You know. are you here? I mean, to hear it on a on a record to hear her in cotton when she's doing things, but to be there. It has to be

different in studio than it is in an arena. Yeah, you know, she she well, and then see when it's not fair because Whitney was a church girl and she never turned that off. So it wasn't far removed from the worlds that we lived in. Her and CeCe were cool. She was cool with all these other people. So Whitney was just an extension of the world that I came from. Prince came. I was seated at an event, Shannon.

And during a commercial break, Prince came down to me and kneel before me and he gave me he said, here's my number. And I want you to come to Minneapolis and jam with me. And, you know, I didn't go. It was so early on in my career. Those voices from that church culture, because, you know, you know, Prince Prince Frank you know he'll do music in his drawls yeah yeah yeah he'll come to the studio on a G string yeah yeah yeah you know you know and so you know so people seeing his cheeks out I didn't want to be trying to argue well you know well you know what you know his cheeks is out but he do good music you know so i so i didn't even return them it's i didn't even um i didn't i didn't even take him up on all he said he said i want you to come to minneapolis and jam and i didn't do it man i didn't do it he called the crib you gotta go just to see paisley park i know i want to he called the

crib he called the crib bro and kissed my baby and said hey said hey to Tammy before he left and and I let fear get In the way of me working with him what artists today Would you like to do collab with? That you have if you haven't done one with them, who would you like to do a collab with? You know as I know that some of the church folk would probably get me again, man, but you know, I am a fan of the lyrical genius of Sean Carter. Oh, I am. I am. I think lyrically, he's a juggernaut. The fact that he doesn't write what he says down and the intentionality of the conversations that he has,

good and bad. Right. You know, I'm just a, I've always been, because you know, we're in the same age demographic. Right. You know, so I've got to, you know, I've had a chance to live with his journey. It would be Sean Carter and sting Wow

sting from the police I those those would be my to dream and if he was living I would love to work with Andre Crouch Andre Crouch was a great gospel yeah yeah yeah yeah the whinersans, I think James Cleveland, all that. All that. James Cleveland, all that. My grandfather. You're showing your age, you're showing your age, you're showing your age. Yeah, man. But, so Prince was the one that you like, man, I mean, he might have had, y'all might

could have done a song together. His cheeks was out. I mean, it was- Aw man, that ain't got nothing to do with that. The man, like you said, he was a genius. Oh! You talk about right. Oh! Oh! got nothing to do with that the man with you like you said he was a genius oh you know you talk about right oh oh and you know like like i don't even have that conversation with people you know when everybody bring up the michael the prince i don't even do that but first of all it's it's an

insult to their greatness but they were two different different two different phenoms but prince musically the fact because you, Prince could play every instrument. And then he could go into the studio and engineer what he plays. That's just a whole nother behemoth. That's, that's, that's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who thinks of Piper Ray? You're going to walk around with your cheeks out if you can do all that. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, his mind has to be. Yeah.

Because you think about what he, Raspberry and and and pink and pink cashmere all of that the mind genius noise in april oh i mean purple rain it's under the cherry moon snows in april just even that line yeah and he was having that kind of line back in the 80s yes yes he he was mute he was way ahead of his time. Yeah. Because the way he was thinking, I was like, who think that? You remember Lady Cab Driver? Yes. Do you know that's him on drums? Is it?

Listen to the... Prince is playing drums. Lady Cab Driver, won't you take me? Yeah. Yes. Yes. Genius. I mean, so as far as songwriters, you might have to like Stevie Prince. Babyface.

Yeah, face. Stevie Prince, Babyface. And I'm going to tell you who I think. Let me tell you who. I'm going to tell you a name and you tell me what you think of this name. Let me tell you who I think should have been. Like you remember when Diddy had domain over all what was happening musically? Yes.

Let me tell you who I think. And Timbaland. Like you remember how much domain Timbaland had just to real estate? Let me tell you a name. I'm going to throw out a name to you. And I'm going to tell you who I think that we slept on, to you and I'm gonna tell you who I think that we slept on that he should have been the name that really dominated the conversation of 90s black pop music Devante from Jodeci yeah you remember the sound that Jodeci brought in

because they were church boys yes they were church boys but Devante's they brought something else in Devante's. That's what they brought in. Brought in a lot of babies. Brought in a lot of babies. A lot of babies. Devontae's production. If you listen to those Jodeci records, his production, it was like, what? But then again, he come up under, you know, that Virginia world, him, Pharrell, Timbaland.

But Devontae... Missy Elliott from... He was working on Missy Ellister. Devante. Devante, I think, is a name that we miss and forget when it comes to popular black music. So when you go down this path, you're denying who you really are to appease the masses because that's what they think it should be you're trying to appease them so that's what you think it should be yeah so now so how do you make that flip and want to perform because you're a performer at the end of the day yet you a songwriter yeah you can sing but I've

seen you you're a performer at the end of the date you see me before yeah i saw you why are you sitting before i got tv you you're a performer and when you're up there i think sometimes you like okay yeah i know this is secular urban gospel music but you're not you're not moving like Miss Margie and Brother Brown in the Deacon's Court. I just enjoy having fun. I enjoy having fun. I enjoy what I'm blessed to do. And I love getting excited about my faith. And I love getting excited about the music.

And sometimes I probably do too much. I know I probably move around too much. But, you know, I'm forgetting and just getting lost in the beauty of the moments, you know? Man, Ply's going to do a collab. He don't want to do nothing. He don't want to do nothing. He don't want to do nothing? Yeah.

He don't want to do nothing. He don't want to do nothing. He be talking. He be running his mouth. That's all he be talking? He be just running his mouth. Ply, you hear that? He say you be talking.

You bumping him. Yeah, yeah. It's because we was supposed to be in the guy together. We was going to do something in Florida and Miami. He don't want to do nothing. He don't want to do nothing. It's because I think he's really, really, really afraid that I could be his daddy. Swag.

I mean, you come here today. You the lv on you dripped i mean you're not dressed typically like the church would want you to dress so how did you say you know what man i ain't finna wear no square toe gator i ain't finna wear no stacy adler with no real socks i'm not finna wear no Stacy Adams with no real socks. I'm not finna wear no long jacket. Hey. But there was a time I did, though. That's what I'm saying. There was a time I did. I had to score a toe game. But you a small man, though.

You can't be wearing those big old zoosuits. I know, and that's why I look the fool. That's why I look the fool, trying to appease the church people. I just think that. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news, previews, recaps and analysis delivered straight to your podcast feed by the time you get your coffee. No dumb hot takes here. Just smart hot takes.

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wednesday for a new episode listen to the fantasy footballers dynasty podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Shannon, you know how it is, man. The older you get, the more comfortable you find yourself in your skin. Yes, you gotta be. You know what I mean? I'm 53. My first album came out, I was 23. So I've lived through my 20s. I've lived through

my 30s. I've lived through my 40s. I'm comfortable. Who don't like me now ain through my 30s. I've lived through my 40s. I'm comfortable Who don't like me now ain't gonna like me correct not at 53 ain't nothing I can do to change anybody's mind right? Nothing and those who rock with me, you know, we'll go to baby gap and I'll give me a onesie You know I'm saying to keep it pushing so the dance moves. I mean when you up there. Oh my gosh I mean you be doing a lady dance movie. I mean you be you up there. Oh, my gosh. I mean, you be doing the latest dance moves. I mean, you be watching. Oh, my gosh.

And you incorporating them. Oh, my gosh. I be just having fun. I'm not a dancer. Like, I couldn't go to a studio and learn choreography. Right. I couldn't. I would be horrible.

And a one, and a two, and a one, and a stop, and a turn. I couldn't do it. It would be horrible. Right. So I'm just really having fun. I'm just having fun. I'm having fun, and I'm excited, man, to be telling people how dope Jesus is, man. And I have a good time doing it.

I just have a good time. I think that what has always been confusing to me, Shannon, is that we say that we got the truth. Right. We say we got the light of love, and we got the hope and compassion from people, Right. We say we got the light of love and we got the hope and compassion from people, but we can be the most square The most lame acting people in the world. Okay, and so for me, I just need to be counterintuitive to all of the social constructs of what people think a a Christian should be and shouldn't be and shouldn't do what I'm walking around telling y'all the man I'm in

love with the creator of the universe that should get you lit right that should get you turned more than more than talking about you know as I was on the block you know with with that with that with that work in my backpack and whoop and it's like bro bro I'm out here giving you this Jesus right and you can't be lit with me. Right. I'm that that is always confused me. We should be the most excited, most on fire, most loving, most compassionate, most forgiving people in the world. Because we look in the mirror every day and see what we were. We see who we are. And if it weren't for God's grace, where would I be?

Yeah, we also the most judgmental. You left that part out. And it's sad. But why do you think that is? Man. And just keep it a buck. I just think the thing is that we have a hard time

seeing someone that looks like us have more than us. And it's not the fact that they don't have it. They just don that they don't have it they just don't want you to have because for the longest time as long because you had i've had homies as long as i was doing what they were doing had the exact same thing as they had nothing more nothing less yeah we cool yeah i started to go here they didn't go with me. Yeah. That's the problem. I changed. Yeah. Yeah, I did. Unfortunate part about it, you didn't change with me.

But it's sad because when I hear most of the harsh, and I don't have no problem with you critiquing me. If there's my performance, I'm on television and something, I didn't word it properly. Okay. But to just dislike me or to say something so negative just because yes that's the problem that's where i like the old saying it'd be your own people and it does because most of the people that criticize me on social media they ain't of the opposite race they look like me. Well, my only criticism, seriously, would be, I think you brush your teeth too much. Ah!

I just don't see how that's fair to your teeth. I just don't. To me, that's teeth brutality. No! I got 130 bands with veneers and implants. But they don't need that much attention. I mean, you can't be all up in, I mean, you all up in people's face and they'll be like, yeah, yeah, man. Okay, I'll see you later.

But Shannon, how often do you do it a day? Once again, how much one? Seven to ten. That's what I'm saying. That, that that that is discrimination that there's there's there's something very cruel to that toothbrush that can you imagine the trauma that that tooth i change it out every two weeks so then you abandon the toothbrush that's what i'm saying so you just you're so so so you're not even loyal no not to

the toothbrush no i mean with that many times, I mean, you only get so many brushes out of a toothbrush. I think you need therapy. Maybe. Yeah, I just don't think that's right. And I'm going to be praying for you on that. Okay.

That's why. What if I cut it down to five? Half. But I can't leave the house. I mean, I can't leave the house. I mean, I can't leave the house without brushing my teeth. So do you have a halitosis problem? Do you feel like you're brushing your teeth? I don't think so, but I don't want to run the risk.

Have you ever had a woman say it to you? No, I've never had. So then I would say... But that would be a bad feeling because I've had... I mean, have you ever had to tell somebody? And if you have to find the appropriate way to tell someone that. Do you know, being in church, how many preachers with bad breath be praying over you? Yeah.

All the stinking prayers. That's probably why God ain't heard it, pray heard it yet because he keeping them away from. Look, Negro, brush your teeth once in the morning. Brush your teeth before you go to bed. No! And keep it moving. Two times a day? That's what the average dentist will tell you to do. No, see, see, see?

Remember how they thought in the church how it should be? You see how they pass that down to you? So you said we got colonized, Dennis just have to break after every meal now i mean as soon as i get up in the morning i got before i do anything i don't go downstairs before i brush my teeth that's fair that's right okay now i eat i gotta brush them again that's kind of fair okay i get to work i gotta brush them again why i gotta brush them again before i go on the air. What happened before you left the crib? I mean, you left the crib and you get to work and nothing happened. Nothing.

Nothing? No. Because if something else happened, then you don't have a toothbrushing problem. You got a whole, there's a whole lot of fungus. No, I brush, I floss, I go twice a year to the dentist, you know, make sure everything okay. Inside is good, so no, I don't have no problem. Like you said, you know what, maybe it is a little obsessive, but what is normal? Because what's normal to you might not be normal to me.

Obviously, what's normal to me is not normal to you. Well, I brush my teeth a couple of times a week. That's... Mm. What'd you do? What'd you do? What'd you do? I'm lying. I brush my teeth every day. Every day? Just once?

In the morning and at night, Shannon. Jesus. I sure hope you don't go out your house. Every child. Did you play sports as a child? Shannon, I've been this height since I was six. So I've struggled with sports. Did you want to play sports? Now, I tried to run track.

I was good in track. Okay. Because I was tired of getting my butt whooped, so I was always good at running. Right. So yes, I could run track. I was good at track. But then by the so I was always good at running. Right. You know, so yes, I could run track. I was good at track. But then by the time I got to high school, everybody grew.

Right. And it was a wrap. It was a wrap. So did you... All the trauma that just come back in my... I just remember just everybody growing up and I didn't get the chance to grow up. So, okay, as a six-, seven-year-old, eight-year-old,

your average height, then all of a sudden you go for the summer and you're still that same height and everybody, whoop, and then another summer, whoop. Bro, I'm talking about that, but that summer between the eighth and ninth grade, it was like, uh-oh.

And then the summer between the ninth and twelfth grade, it went, uh-oh, it was, oh, it went like a cuss word. And so every year, bro, and it's like, okay, am I it was, oh, whatever, whatever, like a cuss word. And so every year, bro. Right. And it's like, okay, am I going to be like a little person? You know, you know, like I was going to have to like, you know, always carry like a car seat. You know, would I be able to work?

Would I be able to ride all the rides at Six Flags? You know, you know, will I always have to wear clothes that have like a big zipper in the front? Right. You know, I just didn't really know what was going to happen to me so how obviously you know look this is not new I mean they call it bullying now we call it picky make fun of your size your height you know how we do do you know that when it came to girls and when it came to things I did not have I did not know that my height was a big issue Until I had a career and then after I had a career I could hear people's like, oh he's short in person

He's short in person right but but before that I never had a girl say I'm not gonna date you cuz you short You kind of yeah, that was that I mean, I see, I see. What exactly is this? What is, what is, what is, what is? That's Kanye. Okay. I was, because that hurt me so bad. No, my bad.

I was going to take a drink. I was like, wow. But you said it loud. I did. And, and, and. But I didn't mean to blurt it out like that, because I didn't mean to seem as surprised as I was. But you did.

But I am kind of surprised. I mean, because, I mean, I mean, normally, you know, they want the big athlete. But you could see, you know what? You could sing. I could play that piano. See, yeah. See, that was. You couldn't play that piano.

See, that's how you, yeah. Musicians, entertainers, and athletes. Do you know how short Prince is? I do. And Prince could take you a woman. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, considering the guy in the 10th grade took out, so I don't think Pris would have any problem.

See, man, you got me. I was just joking. What was your favorite sport as a child? You know, I didn't play sports as a child until school. And I ran track outside of that. It was music. Everything was music, but you had to.

Okay. Let me, let me, let me please. Oh, you the athlete. I'm telling to tell you that. Okay.

Okay. Dallas, please tell me I'm from Fort Worth. You from Fort Worth. Okay. Your favorite team. My favorite. I never had a... I never had a favorite team coming up.

This one? It's because I remember liking Len Swan. Oh, the Steelers. No, no. I remember liking Tony Dorsett. I remember liking Joan Namath. I remember liking... You know, just different.

Do you like the team where you stay that you're from? Yes. You went all the way around the world just to say that. I like Le'Veon Swag. I like Joe Namath. Man, stop that. I like Le'Veon Swag. I like Joe Naples. Man, stop that. You know good where you love the Cowboys. No, no. Here's what I'm saying. I'm not a big sports guy, so I'm not

really paying attention to maybe the playoffs or the championships. You got a Cowboy paraphernalia in your house? No. You ain't got nothing? No Cowboy helmet, no jersey, no posters? No Mavericks, nothing. No, I was not that nothing. No cowboy helmet. Never had. No jersey. Never had. No posters. Mavericks, nothing. No, I was not that kid. I had on my wall, I had pullouts of GQ magazine.

That's what I had on my wall. I had to have posters like Ralph Lauren. You know, like Perry Ellis. I was that guy. Yeah, see, it's easy. I was that kid. You see, it's easy for you to dress. Oh, because I'm little?

But you'll be fly. I see you. Yeah, but most of the stuff has to be custom or it has to be extra large by me so you just go get off the rack i do and some stuff i can get where the whole thing is on the same rack hold on john drummond john drummond track runner yeah best friend john Yeah, best friend. John Drummond, best friend, gold medalist. Could you ever outrun him?

It just depends what we're running from. Depends what we're running from. Shout out to John Drummond. No, man, I have a lot of great athlete friends. Dion and I, close friends. Emmitt, great friends. Kurt Warner, great friends. Kurt Warner, great friends.

I have a lot of great friends. Chris Paul. Right. Great friends. And they love me because I don't know nothing about what they do. We don't talk sports. We just talk about life. I know none of the stats and all that. If you weren't a musician what Kirk Frank can be doing I

Think I would love to be a fourth grade school teacher what I would love to work with kids bad They don't make any money, but I love Teaching and help it might have been okay before the cell phone came out now you know every fourth grader got a cell phone and fourth grade and then the internet yeah and they want to be on the cell phone when you teach it that is true that is true but i probably would have loved to be a school teacher or something like that i don't know i don't know i've been doing music all my whole life i don't know what else i do you had a yeah hold. You had a soundtrack on the movie Norbit any given Sunday. Yeah. I had a song in the movie Norbit and I had a song in any given Sunday.

You know, that's not normal for a gospel artist. Yeah. I'm grateful. I'm very grateful. Yeah. Do you understand just how big you are? I don't think it's necessary to even have the conversation. I think that it's a mute moment for me, and there's nothing beneficial about it for me, for me personally. Right. I'm not saying it's wrong for anybody else, but for Kirk, conversations of self-glory and self-loathing spaces, for me, I'd rather be in rooms or have conversations about how dope you are. Right. Or how dope that person is.

They've just never been beneficial for me, so I always choose to just kind of bow out those questions and in conversations have you ever considered getting into acting I've done a little bit of stuff here and there kind of devil um we have a show right now on on on BET plus called kingdom business and I'm an executive producer along with uh Devon Franklin and Harley Davis Carter and I've got a little role I do in there and I've executive produced a couple of Christmas movies for Hallmark and I'll jump in. So, yeah, you know, I've had a chance to do some fun stuff here and there. Is that something that you would like to take on full time or you're too busy with your other career in the music?

I love dabbling in all of it. You know, there's a couple of properties that we're working on right now. A couple of IPs that we're out shooting and pushing around right now. You know, we've been trying to see about doing a reboot of, you remember the show used to come on NBC called Amen? Sherman Hemsley? Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Because, you know, like the Fresh Prince did the reboot. Yeah. Yeah. And so we've been just kind of talking about maybe seeing that space. So we're just always trying to figure out different things to just keep having conversations that lift people up. Right. You did a gospel comedy tour with Steve Harvey.

What was that like? It was really dope. I did the music. Steve and I are really, really good friends. Okay. Steve and I are great friends. He's a great man. Yo, man, he a real one.

Yeah. Yeah. Steve a real one. So would you consider Steve a mentor of yours? Yes, he is. No doubt. Steve is a mentor and a hero. He is no doubt. What does Steve teach you about you? Because Steve is a guy.

He don't care. You talk about him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, if you ain't got my number, you talking about me, don't do nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do nothing to me or for me. What's amazing is I would say to you, Steve would probably say more about what I've taught him. What's amazing is I would say to you, Steve would probably say more about what I've taught him. Wow. What's been amazing is because Steve, Steve continues to say that when he was going through his transition, trying to find faith and trying to find moments in his life. He said, I said to him almost 20 years ago, as I said to him, Steve, the only difference between you and my world is that in my world, we wear a mask. That's the only thing is we wear a mask and then after Sunday we take the mask off. Wow.

It's the only difference. Right. So when you go on tour, so what's a tour like? You know, it's not like what you would think of other tours. You know what I'm saying? You know, there are no girls in the lobbies. None. Okay. Sister Johnson no girls in the lobbies. None. Sister Johnson, them not in the lobby.

Ain't no aunties, none. With tambourines. With them stockings. The knee-hides got the little... They got the knee-hides. Got the little nuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got the little nuts.

You remember them boys? I do, I do. Nothing sexy about them boys. Now, there's no aunties in the lobby. Now, man, you know, and the kind of tours that I love to curate is we try to create like rock star tours. Like people come, you know, it's lights and it's screens and it's boom, boom, boom, boom. And then we're going to give you that Jesus. So, you know, we try to be wild and bananas

in the production and presentation. And so, you know, it is like it is in any situation. You know, we are hitting the stage, we're hitting the streets, production, crew tours, meet and greets. And, you know, but we are seeing people, man, that just want to be reminded that in these crazy times, man, that God got them and he love them.

That's all we're trying to do. And like, like, like, like, like my whole mission in life. I just want to remind you, God love you and he got you. Right. That's it. That's it. That's it. Once you get close to the God, the stuff about your life that needs to change.

I trust God with you. You his. Right. And I trust God to deconstruct and tear down the things in you that he needs to make a better you. That ain't my job to police your process. Right. I like that.

What did I just say? That's not my job to police your process. I'm going to just let that You can let that marinate for a minute. You're not black folk, dude. When we say something got a little something on it, we're just like, you let that marry for a minute boy You're not black folk do when we say something got a little someone was like just let that day But that's it with that Where did you learn just that I saw that you went to the uh, you put us on

What I do you were naughty. You know what you did. I went naughty with the audience And what I do, I mean, you have a stage presence. I mean, in the church, you can't really have a stage presence. Was I doing something nasty? Oh, you didn't say nasty. It was borderline nasty. Close. What was I doing?

Like, gyrating? That was me. Yeah. That was me. Yeah. That was me. I mean. And, you know, I don't be trying to.

Man, I'm just. But you know what, though? For a lot of people, they may criticize some of the stuff I do, they need to go to church in Africa. They need to go to church in Brazil. Right. I mean, we are, we are people that move. Right. Brother, I've been to some churches in Africa that, baby, them sisters move.

They move, yeah. Baby them sisters move they move her baby first time. I went to Brazil and I took my band with me because Brazil has Cut the carnival and they have very nice. Yeah, very nice looking sisters. Yeah, okay nice sisters in Christ. Okay, really? Well, they have beautiful women. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they do not in Brazilians. Yes, sir So they come to church and they worship in God, but they have You know, I'm looking for a nice God-fearing woman. Do you? Mm-hmm.

I got quite a few I can introduce you to. In Brazil? Right in America. Oh, look. I'm looking to get out of the country. Is that holiday time of year again again looking for something different for your favorite sports person on your list think game time tickets for sports concert and comedy shows all make fantastic gifts this time of year even if it's last minute the best way to get tickets to any

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