Club Shay Shay - Michael Eric Dyson

Episode Date: November 2, 2020

On Episode 7 of Club Shay Shay, Shannon welcomes in scholar, reverend, author and friend Michael Eric Dyson.Dyson is a sociology professor at Georgetown University and an author of the books ‘Tears We Cannot Stop’ & the forthcoming ‘Long Time Coming,’ and a great friend of Shannon’s. In this enlightening and informative conversation, Shannon and Michael discuss pressing societal issues in America, including police brutality, the racial and economic divide, and the nationwide protests in support of racial justice. They also talk about the importance of voting in the all-important 2020 Presidential election.A fellow sports fanatic, Prof. Dyson dives into a number of hot topics across the sports landscape: what LeBron James and the entire NBA have done to advance social causes, the impact of the late Georgetown coaching legend John Thompson, the importance of HBCUs, Colin Kaepernick’s legacy and the intersection of athletics and racial + social justice. Michael Eric Dyson brings a great deal of illuminating insight to a host of difficult topics throughout the conversation, detailing how U.S. history has led to this moment, and where we can go from here.But Shannon doesn’t let Prof. Dyson off the hook, later asking him to reveal his NBA & NFL GOATs, his favorite musicians of all time, and much more.#DoSomethinB4TwoSomethin & Follow Club Shay Shay:                                                                 https://www.instagram.com/clubshayshayhttps://twitter.com/clubshayshayhttps://www.facebook.com/clubshayshayhttps://www.youtube.com/c/clubshayshay Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news and the best analysis delivered by the time you get your coffee. The show hits every single game every single week, but I can't do it alone. So I'm bringing in all the big guns from NFL media like Colleen Wolf. Subscribe today and you'll immediately be smarter and funnier than your friends. Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Mike Wright from the Fantasy Footballers Dynasty Podcast. You heard that right.

The Fantasy Footballers have officially entered the Dynasty space. Every week, we bring you the same in-depth analysis and entertainment you've come to expect from the fantasy footballers only now it's from the dynasty perspective join me and the rest of the crew every wednesday for a new episode listen to the fantasy footballers dynasty podcast on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts hello i'm shannon sharp host of club shea shea i am the proprietor and the host of Club Shea Shea. And my guest really doesn't need any introduction.

He is a sociology professor. He's a reverend. He's a friend. He can wax poetically about religion, about race, about the hip hop culture. And he's also the author of the book, Tears I Cannot Stop, Dr. Michael Eric Dyson. Hello, welcome to Club Shea Shea. I am your host, Shannon Sharp, and today's guest is extraordinary. He's a sociology professor at Georgetown University. He's hip-hop culture.

He's sports culture. He's a minister. He's a pastor. He's a minister. He's a pastor. He's a reverend. Doc, when I refer to you, do you prefer to be called a minister, a pastor, or a reverend? Shay Shay's friend. Shani Scarf's friend. That's good enough for me.

Mike Eric Dyson from the deep. No, no, no. Great friend. And I don't use the word, I don't use that word friend lightly. Great friend. We have conversations. We pick up the phone and talk to each other. We're just not friends because we're doing this interview. We actually converse on the telephone frequently, often. So people need to understand the depth of our relationship. often. So people need to understand the depth of our relationship. Absolutely. I'm so honored. And that is telling the absolute truth. And we talk back and forth. I learned so much. I get it all for free. I ain't got to pay for it. I get it all for free. Like I said, Doc, thanks for coming on today. And let's jump right into it.

The current state of America. And I think the biggest thing that we see is the racial divide between the Black minority community and our white counterparts. And we see the unarmed killing of Black men and women in America. George Floyd tipped it off. And then we see the Blake situation. We see Ahmaud Brooks. We see Sandra Bland. We see Walter Scott. Doc, we can go on and on. What do you think got us here? No, it's a great point. You laid them out there. Rashard Brooks, Ahmaud Arbery, George Floyd. I mean, and unfortunately and tragically, I mean, when we add Sandra Blake or Rekia Boyd or Breonna Taylor, we're going to add more names after this abuse. That's part of the tragedy, right? Right.

And what got us here is the persistence of white supremacy. What got us here is that from the slave plantation, when the slave patrols were sent out after Black bodies, bring them back. If they escape, bring them back. If they're out late at night, because you know, black people could get a pass to go to visit their girlfriends or wives or husbands and the like from plantation to plantation. But if they were disobeying any rules or if the slave owner didn't like what they were doing, they would send those darn slave patrols out. the predecessors to the police. So in the early 1700s in Virginia and other places, the police have essentially been trying to arrest Black mobility and to stop Black freedom.

And as bad as that sounds, we've been there from day one, 1700, to what's going on now in 2020. But, Doc, then they didn't have rules and regulations. Get them back by any means necessary. And if they disobeyed, you have the right to use force, even if that force is deadly force. Now you would think that as we progress as a society, at least I'd like to think we progressed as a society, that the rules would not be in today's society like it was back then. Why can't they see us as equal?

Why can't they treat us as equal? Why must they use deadly force as a first option instead of a last resort? You and I, as you eloquently just put it there, you framed it, we should be able to have evolution and progress of the perception of white people of black people but is it really any progress is there i mean they're still killing us in the same way yeah as you said back on the plantation they had some ostensible rules but not really you know now if the slave master got mad you killed one of my best negroes i'm going you better you owe me let me tell you what the only time reparations has basically been paid is for that. You cost me some labor with this Negro that you messed up and you hurt his arm, you hurt his leg, or you killed him. I want reparations. Ain't that a trip?

So the reality is, is that we've been dealing with this from the get go, that you would think there would be rules. But qualified immunity means it's back on slave plantation time. Qualified immunity means that the Constitution gives to local authorities, especially police people, an exemption from personally being liable for, say, a murder or police brutality. So even when these cops do it, people keep asking,

don't they know they're being recorded? What difference do it make? Correct correct at the end of the day they know that there is no prosecutor that is really going to hold them to account and that very few people in the government are willing to step up and to suggest that what they do is murder or manslaughter or the like. So we know we're living in a society where, yes, you're absolutely right. The rules, the conventions, the laws, what police are supposed to do and not do. We are supposed to be recognized as full citizens of the American polity. We are supposed to be recipients of the full benefits of American society. But it ain't so.

As my man said, it ain't necessarily so. The things in the Bible, they just might be liable. That's what he was saying. And the stuff in the law books might just be something you cooked up because it doesn't apply to black people. And even if it's on the books, if it doesn't get applied when you are face to face to a police person, it's a piece of paper that has no meaning. Because when you mention qualified immunity and you laid it out, it means that the servant, a civil servant, can't be held liable unless you can prove that it was so egregious that he violated you in the most heinous of terms. But they made that burden so high, Doc, there's no way on a consistent basis that you'll be able to clear that bar.

I mean, you can't clear the bar. You can't clear the drinks. You can't clear the bartender. You can't clear the darn establishment. Ain't nothing you gonna clear. And to give you an example, tell us when it has been done. I mean, if it has been, it's extremely rare.

Right. The bottom line is it's been, it's extremely rare. The bottom line is it's been very rare that cops have been held to account. When they fired those four cops that killed George Floyd in Minneapolis, that was a rare thing. A few of the cops have been fired here and there, but for the most part, qualified immunity has exempted them from the kind of stringent barriers that you and I would face and stringent penalties that we would confront if we had done something even looking like you hurt a police person. Boy, if you hurt a cop in this society, and God bless them, I don't want anybody to be hurt. I don't want cops to be hurt. But at the same time, if you hurt their eyelashes, there is a hunt throughout the land. One of them hurts our children, our mothers, our fathers, our brothers, our sisters, our aunts, our uncles, our cousins.

There is hardly anything to be done. And they go on with impunity and go back to work and continue to draw their salaries. Doc, I remember when I was a kid growing up and I would hear about these, because this was never, and this was like in Chicago, you hear about it in LA, you hear it about in Detroit.

And I remember when my grandmother, my grandfather would watch something like this on television, the first thing they would say is what did he do to cause the police to do that? And now that since we've had the advent of cell phones, we know now there was a lot of times they didn't do anything to justify dying.

They didn't do anything to justify the treatment at the hands of the police in the street. I so disagree with you. Let me tell you what they did. They breathed. They breathed. They existed. They were black and speaking. They were black and human. They were black and had the nerve to look at a cop. They were black and had the nerve to inhale and exhale. off limits. And I'm being facetious, Brother Shannon, but you're absolutely right. There is

no provocation. There is no thing that they've done to precipitate or warrant the kind of nastiness, the vicious reprisal, the hatred, the taser, the gun, the stun gun, the rubber bullet, the baton, nothing. You and I both have been subjected to that. I know I have been. I know you have been. I mean, for no good reason, stopping us, throwing me against the car, calling me the N-word, putting a gun to my head, knocking me on the ground. And I'm a well-behaved Negro. I'm not one of these causing no trouble, you know. And what difference does it make, though? The ones who, quote, cause trouble get treated the same way as those who don't. So you're absolutely right. No provocation. And what these films show, you know, and I get so upset with some of my white brothers

and sisters. I wish he would just obey. Let me show you the white people who didn't obey. You mother. And we saw that the other day. White boy getting in his truck. And the man was there with the gun. If that had been me, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow. They would have held his white T-shirt and then shot him in the back seven times. I know that would never happen. That a cop would hold a white T-shirt and then shoot the guy seven times. And God bless him, he lives, but he's paralyzed from his waist down.

White boys, white men, white girls, white people, white women, white folk with impunity. They have qualified immunity, it seems, themselves. they misbehave, most cops are not going to over-respond, shoot them, or engage in other nefarious and violent activities that will cost them their lives or make them more vulnerable. I've seen white boys with machetes, right? I mean, literal white boys. I don't want white men to get upset. Is he calling us a white boy? I'm talking about white boys under 17. I've seen white men with machetes and knives come at police people and have no reprisal, no consequence. They try to talk to them or they run. I've seen cops run.

I saw that. You saw that? I did. He comes in the car and runs because he's so afraid because he doesn't want to hurt the person. And you got the gun. You could have shot that person. So we know that there's a different standard of perception. We are existing in different universes of perception, rotating on different axes. And we saw this in the O.J. Simpson case. Y'all saw one thing, we saw another thing. Y'all hear this, we hear that. And never

the twain shall meet. And I'm afraid we haven't progressed too much more even since then in 95 doc why is it is that they're able to show such great restraint at strength as you mentioned it when dealing with our white counterparts as opposed to us it's hard for the well and the thing that that it burns me it makes me seethe is is that when they say, I don't see color. Stop lying. Because if you don't see color, you don't need to be a policeman. You can't drive because that means you're colorblind and you run stop signs and you run red lights. So we know that you see color. That you see the color and the stimuli, black skin versus white skin triggers something different. It's a collective unconscious. It's muscle memory.

I wasn't joking when I said this tracks back to 1700s. If you've been doing that stuff repetitively and repeatedly over a couple, three centuries, you know it's deeply ingrained. And then you pass on those stories and you see what your grandfather did and your great grandfather did. You pass on those stories and you see what your grandfather did and your great-grandfather did. And they tell you stories. And your great-great-great-great-grandfather told your great-great-great-grandfather and your grandfather what the deal was. And they pass that on to you. It's a collective inheritance.

It's like the Declaration of Independence. It's a document that articulates noble ideals. And in this case, it articulates ignoble ideals. And people absorb that stuff, man. And as you said, the stimuli of the skin, you know, whether it's conscious or not. And at this point, what difference does it make? Whether you are unconsciously biased or consciously biased, the thing is you still got the same results. Your intentionality doesn't exhaust consequence. What your intent was.

My past used to tell me a mosquito don't want nothing but blood, but it can end up giving you malaria. It's intent, draw blood. It's consequence, fill your body with malaria. So the reality is, is that many of these cops don't even understand that when they say, I don't see color. First of all, you lying, as you said. Secondly, if you don't see color, that means you don't see responsibility. Because if you saw racial color and racial identity, you'd have to see the way in which white and black and brown and yellow have been mistreated in this country or treated differently. Then white people have been treated differently than black, brown, red, and yellow people. So how convenient. You know, I don't see color. Oh, when it comes time to taking care of your responsibility, I don't see color. So therefore, I don't believe in affirmative action. I don't see color, therefore I don't believe in reparations. I don't see complicity. And you don't see how

you've benefited from being a white guy or a white woman for 400 and some odd years. So when you don't see color, it's a way of denying your responsibility as a citizen of these United States of America. But Doc, how do we get them to see when you brought the slaves here in 1619 and you told him he was less than, you treated him less than, you robbed him of his dignity, you robbed him of his humanity, you put him in chains, you said, this is what you are. And then you told him no matter what, you can never be equal to. Roger Twain and Dred Scott said a slave can never be a citizen. That's what he said. Plessy versus Ferguson said you can have separate. We can do equal, but it's got to be separate.

So it's like when I tell people a TV is only going to be a TV because that's what we've been told for 75 years. That's what it is. Well, if you tell someone they're less than, they're treated less than for 400 years, how do you ever see that person as equal to? You can't. That's the point. And people try to deny it. They try to put it away as a fallacy or a mythology. It's not true. It's not real. But it is. How are you going to tell folk all of a sudden to treat people like equals who were never seen as equals the people who were never seen as you know uh regarded as your peer and as you said the supreme court justice in the mid-1800s he said in that dred scott case that black people have no rights that white people

are bound to respect and he said this ain for you. The constitution wasn't written for you. Declaration of independence wasn't written for you. He didn't lie. He didn't lie, Doc. Where, where you lying? Where, where the lie at? I mean, because first of all, the founding fathers, they were all white. They all own land and the majority of them had slaves. So when they wrote the constitution, they were writing the constitution for people that look like them, So when they wrote the Constitution, they were writing the Constitution for people that look like them, that were like them. Slaves had no land. They weren't free for the most part. So how am I going to write a document for you when I'm not talking about you? You better believe it. And they and they promoted it when they wrote that Declaration of Independence.

They put it on Plantation Graham. They didn't have Instagram back then. They had Plantation Graham Plantation Graham. They didn't have Instagram back then. They had Plantation Graham. And they put it on Plantation Graham and on Twitter. And they sent that darn thing out there with their quills and their pens and their documents. And they articulated their beliefs that Black people were subservient. Read the Declaration of Independence, where it talks about savages that are Indians and Black people who are disloyal. This is in the document itself. So when you read the founding documents, as you said, three-fourths of the signers of the Declaration of Independence owned enslaved people. And not only did they own the enslaved people, And not only did they own the enslaved people, they denied black people and all women and people who were non-property holders

the ability to vote. So you done wrote the darn document where all people are created equal, all men, but all women, all people are created equal, all except women and except black people and except non-property holders, you were putting an asterisk on there to begin with. And whenever you read something with an asterisk,

you know your ass is at risk. So you know you're the one. If you are the one who is the victim of that asterisk, you are vulnerable, and you will not be able to sustain an argument about the necessity for your equal treatment. So from the very beginning, it's been deeply entrenched and deeply rooted. So of course, people are not going to just know overnight that, hey, we're supposed to treat them equally. We're supposed to regard them with equal passion and equal observation and equal regard that they are our brothers and sisters and what we have, they should have. No, no. And even when it formally ended with Jim Crow and the 64 voting, 64 civil rights bill, 65 voting rights act, 68 housing act, all kind of informal stuff,

all kind of stuff. Even if you denied the law, the Old Testament, the law, you still had the spiritual realities that were persistent. Although even up north, people think, oh, they had it better than those down south. They were doing horrible things up north as well. So to be black in America meant you caught hell. White people didn't see you differently. And to this day, look at that. I don't know if you saw that. I don't know if it was on Twitter or some social media where the two white guys are, you N-word, you N-word, you don't come this far, you N-word. I mean, use it about 19 to 20 times. The cop is sitting right there. The cop doesn't say stop calling these people the

N-word. The cop doesn't intervene. This is one of the, I don't know if it was either Portland or maybe, no I was outside of Kenosha I think, where the Jacob Blake happened. And there was no attempt to interrupt this. Why? Because the cop is part and parcel, wolf and warp, of the same system and structure that reinforces white supremacy. We see it from the White House with Stephen Miller and white nationalism down to the everyday level of the cop. We see it from Donald Trump, who goes to Kenosha and doesn't meet with Jacob Blake,

lies and said he met with their pastor. They ain't got one, dog. They don't go to church. Sorry. They ain't got one. And you lied about that. And then you justified a 17-year-old, allegedly, who murdered, who allegedly murdered two people and shot a third. And you defend him, but you call Black protesters thugs. Yes. Look at the inability of many white brothers and sisters to separate themselves from the vicious white supremacist ideology that permeates their unconscious.

Can't even help it. Doug, you said something very interesting, that people thought the North was different than the South. But what they failed to realize is that it was America. And America treated everybody the same. And they tried to deny Blacks, not try to, they did deny Blacks the right for fair work, to vote, fair housing, civil rights, civil liberties. So this notion that, oh, everybody, because I read what Dr. King, he rented an apartment in 1966 in Chicago, and he said the vitriol that he got in the North was worse than what he got in the South.

And he didn't know if the nonviolent protests in the North would work like it did in the South. He said that. He got hit up outside the head with a rock. He was out there. I'm trying to remember that. Cicero. I've never in my life seen such violence

as I've seen in Chicago. I mean, there it was, Doc. He done been to Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Bull Connor done dealt with all these shit, and up south, because that's where he was, up south, in the north, renting an apartment on the west side of Chicago, trying to highlight the criminal levels of poverty that were in this particular area and showing that black people were not capable of enjoying the same freedoms as their white brothers and sisters up north in a way that

was proclaimed, even though we know down south they didn't get much, but they were honest about it. Up north, they lied about it. Remember what they used to say? That down south, they love black people as individuals, but not a group. But up north, they love you as a group, but not individuals. To my wife. So it's very interesting how that played itself out in the physical geography, in the political geography of discrimination and racism in this country. You know what, Doc, I find very interesting is that we hear our white counterparts say, okay, as long as you're peaceful protesting, that's fine.

When Dr. King peacefully protested, he still had water cannons turned on him. He still had dogs unleashed on him. He still got sit upside his head. And then when Blacks started rioting about what happened in Harlem and what happened in Detroit and what happened in LA, well, we won't hear you because you're destroying. So what is it that we can do

to get your attention to help us advance, to give us equality, to see that we get justice when we've been wrong? That's what we can do. Just kill ourselves. Because the point is they don't want us, they don't want to deal with us, they want to grapple with us. I'm not talking about all white brothers and sisters. I'm talking about the ones with power. I'm tired of white people saying, well, it ain't all of us.

It's enough of you to make our lives miserable, though. It's enough of you who are in positions of power. The ones who love us don't seem to ever be the cops. The ones who love us don't ever seem to be the president, you know, in many instances. Or the constable. Or the senator. I mean, the ones who seem to have a problem with us always seem to have the power. And the ones who seem to love us don't.

So the reality is that when we talk about this country and making an argument about, oh my God, if you people would protest in the right way. Note to white brothers and sisters, if the protest is making you nervous, it is effective. If you're trying to tell us how to protest, that's not an effective protest. Right. Colin Kaepernick got on your nerves and he was effective because he got your attention because he bowed down and he talked about something that was critical to him.

And y'all got upset. They treated Colin Kaepernick worse than they treated dudes who had been accused of rape and came back in the league or violence in the league or killed somebody in the league. I mean, it's amazing. And many of those white GMs really felt that he was one of the most horrible people in the NFL. This is the consequence of white blindness, white privilege, not seeing color. And so when you say, oh, if y'all would be less violent, like you said, Dr. King wasn't violent at all. He taught people how to take the nastiness. Take the blows. He taught people how to take the blows. Think about this, Doc. Normally we have what we call self-preservation. If somebody is hitting on you, I'm going to try

and fight you back. I'm trying to get you off me by any means necessary. So if I'm close to a brick, I'm going to pick that brick up and I'm going to try to stop you from hitting me upside my head. I'm going to try to get you to turn that water can off. I'm going to try to get that dog to unleash me. I'm going to do that. But that's not what he taught those guys. That's not what they did. No, you're absolutely right. He taught them discipline, moral and ethical self-regard, restraint. They practiced. White people would come and call them N-words and all that and Unleashed Dogs. And they were practicing so that when they really felt it, just like y'all, when you were out there, Hall of Famer, out there, y'all were on the practice squad out here doing your thing.

And every day on the gridiron, you know, tour days, they were running tour days, suicide trills, basically, to try to be able to deal with white folk who would come at them. So where is this notion that if you do it the right way, it will be accepted. The white ministers of Birmingham, Alabama, one rabbi and seven, I think, Protestant ministers wrote a letter to King. You're going too fast. You're asking for too much. Don't come into our neighborhood. This is non-violent. So that proves your point. The letter to Birmingham jail was written from King in response to eight clergymen, seven or eight clergymen, who were upset with the non-violent protests of the Black folk in Birmingham. So no matter what you do, they're going to be upset. They're going to write letters. They're going to write letters.

They're going to say it ain't the right way. And the bottom line is that often white brothers and sisters didn't do anything about our suffering until there was looting and violence. That's the tragedy. And that's not on the backs of those who were so upset that they did that. That's on the backs who claim to be American, who claim to be citizens of conscience, but who can't hear Black people unless a building is burning. And then you try to pathologize them and say that they are ridiculous and that they have no morals. And yet every day you are sustaining a culture that disregards their humanity and that provokes them ultimately to engage in sometimes rather desperate activities. Because they've done a great job of portraying blacks by their worst,

but want us to look at the cops by their best. I say you can't have it like that. You can't say because someone has done something, all blacks are like that, but you want us to take the cop that helps someone cross the road or changes attire or buys diapers for a family that needs that are that is need you can't expect us to judge you by your best why you judge us by our worst that's brilliant and that's what they do you see the bad things that black people do the under you know are seen as representative of black people correct the great stuff we do is seen as representative of black people correct the

great stuff we do is seen as exceptional oh that's shannon sharp he's a genius and you are he's amazing and you are but the thing is is that you know that that barack obama he's great there are a lot of barack obama's there are a lot of black people who have been doing uh the kind of things that he did he's an extraordinary man but there were people before him who were capable of being president There you Jesse Jackson could have been president Carol Mosley Brown could have been president Shirley Chisholm could have been president so that there are many other black people who are capable of doing great things But they don't get the opportunity

So the great stuff we do is seen as exceptional the bass of we do is seen as representative Whereas as you said is exactly opposite with white brothers and sisters. Hey, it's a bad apple. It's not the tree. No, your tree is jacked up and you're going to have to cut it down or get some different limbs to be sawed off of there. And we're going to have to plant in more fertile ground. Doc, help me understand this, Doc. And you're a sociology professor and you've studied this a long time. Why is it that my black skin, and I've said this, I said, if you look at my black skin as a threat, you will never see me as non-threatening. If you see me, and that's true, if you think my black skin puts you at fear, but you're more fearful of me being black than a 17-year-old

white kid walking down the streets with an AR-15. Now it's being reported that when they attacked him, he had already shot the individuals. They were trying to get the gun from him. First of all, he's 17. He shouldn't have an AR-15. Second of all, how did he get there? Mama brought him. Right? I mean, here's the point. Your point is so well taken that Trump and them said, well, he's trying to protect himself, trying to protect himself, trying to keep himself from harm's way. And as you've already pointed out, he's already done the dastardly deed. The police let him walk right by.

They go up to another black man, right? Look at Representative Clay. I can't think of his last name now, who Facebook had to remove his post because he said, you come here with your guns. And he put a picture of black men up, the ones that the black militia down in Kentucky that was defending those who were protesting for Breonna Taylor. He said, well, I'll have no conscience about laying you down. This is a sitting congressman. And wait a minute, you're in an open carry state, but they have guns. So now you're going to kill them. You're going to advertise killing them. This lets you know your point was right. You are the threat, not what you

do, who you are. In an open carry state where Black people should be able to hold guns like anybody else, the congressman is threatening Black people by saying, if you come here, and particularly Black men, if you come here armed to the teeth, we will lay you down. We will not have any conscience and we will not have any regard for you because you will not be able to carry what you are duly licensed and we are sworn to uphold your ability to do so. That just lets you know it doesn't apply to us. Let me give another example since people might think, well, that's a theory. How about in an open carry state of Ohio? You roll up on a 12-year-old kid. You roll up on a 12-year-old kid. Tamir Rice. has a gun, first of all, it's an open carry state. So why are you shooting him immediately?

Secondly, did you ask the question whether it was a toy gun or not? Thirdly, they said, I think, when they called the report in, I think it's a toy gun. I don't think it's real. And he's a 12-year-old kid. But this lets us know that those studies that have been done to suggest that Black kids are always seen as older. If they're 12, they're seen as 18. And so they treat them as an adult. The grown Black men like Obama, they try to treat like a kid. The kids they try to treat like an adult when it's to their benefit and advantage.

And this is part of the tragedy that we're dealing with in America. Doc, help me understand this. I'm trying to figure out what made a 17-year-old drive 30 minutes, 45 minutes to protect buildings that weren't his or his family. Doc, I love Whole Foods. I love Target. But if they're burning it down,

I ain't going down to the standing attention with my gun. They got insurance. I'll let them handle that. Unless you the Walmart family. Exactly. Unless you the Walden family. Hold on. If my name's Shannon Bezos, I didn't think so.

Right, we're 200 billion now, 200 billion man in America. So that's absolutely right. But see, this is the sense. This is the sense of collective enterprise of whiteness. It's not about whether you own it or not. It's not about whether you own that store. What is really collective enterprise of whiteness. It's not about whether you own it or not. It's not about whether you own that store. What is really at stake is whiteness itself. The mythological property of white identity. And so he's there to protect it. In the same way that Dylann Roof went to South Carolina

and shot nine people in a church saying that you people are taking over. Where? Prisons, maybe. you people are taking over. Where? Prisons, maybe. We ain't taking over the presidency. We ain't taking over Fortune 500 companies. We ain't CEOs of those places. We don't run most colleges or universities.

Where are we taking over? Being imprisoned in America. Disproportionate numbers of us. Athletics. I was going to say, we might be in basketball, but Luka Doncic is trying to get y'all some, some conversation right now. Luka said, oh, I'm gonna hang with the brothers up in here.

Exactly. Although that Jamal Murray is killing the game. So, so what's interesting is that, is that it was this identification as a white person that are under assault and listening to the president of the United States of America, who is fomenting violence in this country by unleashing some of the worst, most intemperate

racial beliefs that we might be able to imagine. That stuff together is a lethal cocktail. Doug, hold on. I thought that he said anytime he tweets something from his official page, that's fact, that's an official statement. Well, then why is it that when he tweets things, when he says things, if people come out and says, well, that's not what he meant. Well, he didn't mean that. That's not true. I mean, he said, OK, vote in North Carolina yesterday. He said, vote by mail and then go to the ballot box and vote again. Well, you can't vote twice.

He was just playing. Okay. When he said, when he told Sarah Sanders-Huckabee that she needs to take one for the team, he was just joking. I said, I'll tell you what you do. If you're on the job, if you're the boss, go tell one of your employees or tell someone, y'all need to take one for the team so we can close this deal and see what happens to you. Come on, brother. I don't know if they knew what take one for the team means, but you and I know what take one for the team means. That's right.

That's exactly right. We know what the nuanced interpretation of that is. And the thing is, again, they just be lying. And then Attorney General Barr said, well, I don't know what the particular rules of that state are. You can't vote twice nowhere, Barr. What world are you living in? What country are you living in? There is no American state, city, or municipality where you can vote twice. This is the level of corruption and the willingness to defend Donald Trump. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast,

NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news, previews, recaps, and analysis delivered straight to your podcast feed by the time you get your coffee. No dumb hot takes here, just smart hot takes. We'll talk every single game, every single week, but I can't do it alone, so I'm bringing in the big guns from NFL media. That's Patrick Claiborne, Steve Weiss, Nick Shook, Jordan Roderick

from The Athletic, and of course, Colleen Wolfe. This is their window right now. This is their Super Bowl window. Why would they trade him away? Because he would be a pivotal part of them winning that Super Bowl. I don't know why, Colleen. Catch the podcast, the NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal every day.

Subscribe today and you'll immediately be smarter and funnier than your friends. And who doesn't want that? Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news, previews, recaps, and analysis delivered straight to your podcast feed by the time you get your coffee. No dumb hot takes here, just smart hot takes.

We'll talk every single game, every single week, but I can't do it alone, so I'm bringing in the big guns from NFL media. That's Patrick Claiborne, Steve Weiss, Nick Shook, Jordan Rodrigue from The Athletic, and of course, Colleen Wolfe. This is their window right now. This is their Super Bowl window. Why would they trade him away? Because he would be a pivotal part of them winning that Super Bowl.

I don't know why, Colleen. Catch the podcast, the NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal every day. Subscribe today and you'll immediately be smarter and funnier than your friends. And who doesn't want that? Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg rosenthal five days a week you'll get all the latest news previews recaps and analysis delivered straight to your podcast feed by the time you get your coffee no dumb hot takes here just smart hot

takes we'll talk every single game every single week but i can't do it alone so i'm bringing in the big guns from nfl media that's patrick claybonne, Steve Weiss, Nick Shook, Jordan Rodrigue from The Athletic, and of course, Colleen Wolfe. This is their window right now. This is their Super Bowl window. Why would they trade him away? Because he would be a pivotal part of them winning that Super Bowl. I don't know why,en catch the podcast the nfl daily with greg rosenthal every day subscribe today and you'll immediately be smarter and funnier than your friends and who doesn't want that listen now on the iheart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast well well we already knew what Barth, when he gave his 17 page resume to get the job,

because he believes President Trump should have absolute power, that he should be beyond reproach, and that no matter what he does, is that because he's in charge of the executive branch, he can do anything without persecution, without condemnation. And that's just absolutely not true. That's why they got away from British rule. They didn't want the king. They hated that the king had all the power. And now this man is trying to replicate being the king.

I know Harry and Meghan came over here. God bless them. But he thinks that the king came over here and he's going to be King George or whatever. He thinks he's going to do what he's got to do and figure out how to do it and that he has all, you know, total power. But wasn't it the historian, the Lord Acton, who said power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely. We've seen this before our eyes, that this man is a neo-fascist engaging in public policy as the prerogative of a personal predilection. He believes that he should be able to set the standards, do what he wants to do, and not be held to account by law. He literally thinks he's above, beneath, beyond,

and way, way above the law that the rest of us have to abide by. Well, I think the thing is, this is why one of the reasons why he loves dictators, he loves President Xi of China, he loves Putin, he loves Erdogan, he loves Belisario, because they have what he wants, and that is absolute power. He wants he craves that kim jong-un of north korea he that's what he wants he wants to be that and that's not going to happen no well we got to make sure it doesn't happen but he's trying to make it happen yeah absolutely talk about a third term son you got to win the second one first uh and we hope that does well let me not speak for myself i think it would be a disaster for this country should this president get reelected. But we have to do our part to make certain that

that doesn't occur. And even white Republicans who are conservative are going, my God, this is enough. What this man is doing is ridiculous and horrendous. So, yeah, he is seeking to be a kind of dictatorial force, a fascist force, a monarchical force that will embody the aspirations of these dictators throughout the world who do what they want to do without legal compunction or moral redress. When I look at this, and we all know, and I don't know if there's empirical data, but I believe we know why President Trump was elected. And this is what I don't understand. They said it was because of economic anxiety.

But during President Obama's term, the average household income rose greater than any other president in US history. And he inherited the presidency in the second greatest recession behind the Great Depression. Unemployment went down. Everybody's income went up.

And from where it went to, where President Trump took it to, from where President Obama inherited, it's not even close. So don't give me this about economic anxiety because he didn't create the economic anxiety. He inherited something from a Republican president and he took it to heights we didn't even think he could ascend to. I mean, in the midst of that, he saved the economy. He saved the automobile industry. He gave the TARP money. He figured out how the banks didn't fail. I know

a lot of people critical, but imagine the headlines if the first Black president allows the banks to fail. You ain't going to get no second term. You might not get a second day. It wasn't going to happen. So he did nearly the impossible and still was not accorded the respect and the due recognition that white brothers and sisters want to give Donald Trump for inheriting. Born on third base thinks he hit a triple.

Obama truly was trying to do something that was nearly impossible and save this economy and dug it out in such a serious fashion. Doc, back to the violence, the unarmed killing of unarmed black men and women being caught on tape. How do you think the cell phone has helped or create, and because a lot of people are like, well, it's not that bad. Well, it just seems to happen that we always catch the bad right right right no you're absolutely but but it is bad uh and the reality is that the cell phone has revolutionized policing in this country at least

our arguments that what we said was true that we don't have to do anything we can just stop hello officer hey how are you look at rayshard brooks that you mentioned in atlanta 40 minutes nice conversation talking back and forth supposed to go meet this girl you know my wife i don't want to you know yeah drunk here i'm chilled out let me just just all man to man good stuff then you get into it you end up you know shooting this man. Yes, he took your taser and ran. What are you going to do? He ain't going to kill you with no taser.

He fired a taser at you. It can't even go five, six feet. And then you shot him in his back. So he was not a threat. He was running from you. And then what did you say? Got him. And then what did you do?

Kicked him in his face. The level of disregard for Black humanity is astonishing, but it is law, it seems. It is practice. It is convention. It is the rule by which so many people regulate and govern Black life in this country. And the tragedy and trauma is that Black life does not matter, that we will not be respected, that no matter what we do, no matter what we say, no matter how well behaved we are, there doesn't seem to be a tolerance for us as human beings on this earth. And I wasn't joking. exist, not be, just un-exist. Kill ourselves, lose ourselves,

not present a problem through our breathing in this country. That's how many, many people feel about us. You mentioned Ahmaud Brooks, and although he offered, he says, look, I will leave the car here, I would walk home.

I just saw a video that was shot on Tuesday of a guy that's so drunk. He has three-part, four-part cars. He's falling down. He's so drunk, Doc, he's laying on the sidewalk. They let him go. Not only do they let him go with his life, and I'm not saying they should have killed him. They didn't even give him a ticket. Oh, yeah. So how are you so, you hit four parked cars, you're so drunk, you're stumbling, you're lying on the sidewalk.

Oh, my God. And they let you go without a ticket. My God. I mean, this is the living example. This is the very example of what we mean when we talk about white privilege. White privilege ain't about having a bunch of money alone. White privilege ain't about being able to send all your kids to school without bills. White privilege means that you're able to engage in activities that otherwise

might be seen as rendering other people vulnerable, like talking to the cops, like engaging them in a stop. You know, when only white people could go to Harvard, it didn't mean that every white person could go to Harvard. It meant that the only people going to Harvard were white. Right? So what we're saying about privilege is, it doesn't mean every white person will be rich. It means the likelihood of those who will be rich

will be white. It doesn't mean that every white guy who played in the NBA will become a coach. It means the likelihood is that even if black players who become coaches and win championships and then get released by one team have to catch on as an assistant coach in one place, whereas a white guy who never won a championship gets a chance to sign a four-year contract and coach two of the greatest players in the history of the league. These are the kinds of, you know, contrasts that we have to speak about when we talk about white privilege in America. Talk about white privilege in America. Doc, let's talk about John Thompson.

You're in D.C. You know John and what he meant to Georgetown. What's his place in college basketball? I believe he's more than a coach. Oh, John Thompson is one of the greatest figures that American sport has ever produced, number one. Number two, you're younger than me, but when I was coming up and Georgetown was playing, let me tell you what, that was Black America's team. Just like if the Dallas Cowboys are America's team, right, so to speak,

Georgetown was Black America's team. The way they played, that Hoya paranoia. Hoya paranoia. Hoya paranoia. The way in which Alonzo Mourning or Patrick Ewing or Dikembe Mutombo and the great Allen Iverson. If he's six feet, I'm 25 feet. He might be 5'11". Out here doing their thing. And he saved their lives, and especially Allen Iverson.

I mean, but a remarkable man. And made them go to class. Made them go get their degrees. Made them study hard. Made them, right, become productive members of the academic community. And then he was a mentor to so many more. A loving patriarch. Yeah, he going to cuss you out now.

Make no mistake about that. Doc, I heard the story about Rafer Edmond, and they said he was responsible for 60% of the narcotics being moved through D.C., but he had befriended some of the Georgetown players. They said Coach Thompson, Big John called him in and say, stay the F away from my players. And he did it. Brother, let me tell you what. John Thompson was no joke, 6'10", of thunder and chocolate. You think chocolate thunder was the first one?

Darryl Dawkins? No, no, no, Doc. This backup center for Bill Russell with the Boston Celtics was a man of his word. He was to be feared and respected. And people understood he was no joke. And he wanted his players to be protected. And not only from thugs in the street or other, you know, big drug dealers, he also, when he went to opposing teams and they were disrespectful with their racist vitriol against the bodies of say an alan iverson or his other players calling patrick ewan uh an eighth and all that he held the team accountable on the other side see what none of this oh yeah that's horrible that's that's that's

just saying that's kids being kids you are gonna be i'm gonna forfeit the game if you don't kick their butts out now. John Thompson used his authority in a way that should have been used and that many others were afraid to do, but he did it with aplomb and discretion, but also power. A great man, a great coach, a great inspirational figure, a great mentor, a man who was able to make sure his kids were going to be protected, and a man who saw promise to make sure his kids were going to be protected, and a man who saw promise where there was none. Remember, Allen Iverson had been in prison. Correct. And he shouldn't have been. First of all, he should have never been there because maiming by chair was the literal accusation made against him for which he was in prison,

which is nuts because he didn't even throw a chair. But you're in the vicinity, your guys and the white people and black people throwing stuff. They ain't putting none of the white people in jail, but they put the black superstar in jail. And if it were not for, you know, Douglas Wilder, Jesse Jackson, and, you know, maybe Spike Lee, but certainly John Thompson, who saved him, who took him on. This man, we would have never seen one of the greatest players ever. And was it Kobe and other people said, if Allen Iverson was 6'6", ain't no conversation about who the greatest of all time would have been, bro.

Because the man's heart was incredible. His will, his skill, his ability to score, unbelievable. All of that because of the great John Thompson. I love what Coach Thompson said when they told him, and I'm sure he knew this, that he was the first Black coach to win a national championship in basketball. He said, I might have been the first Black person who was provided the opportunity to compete with this prize, but you have discriminated against thousands of my ancestors and denied them this opportunity. That's what he said.

He could have said, thank you. I really appreciate that. He would say, no, no. He said, I might've been the first that was afforded this opportunity. That's right. Don't forget, you denied thousands of people just like me that was just as qualified as me.

The same opportunity that I have, you denied them. See, that's beautiful. And look how gracious that is. He could have said, like you said, yeah, I'm the stuff, I'm the only brother. He knows there were other brothers who could have won had they had the opportunity.

That's what we meant when we said Barack Obama, as great as he is, one of the greatest presidents ever, top 10. But there are some other brothers and sisters could have been president. There are other Black people who could have been firsts if we had permitted them the opportunity. Kamala Harris ain't the first Black woman who is capable of having been, you know, nominated as a vice president. Barbara Jordan could have done this. I mean, there's so many others who could have been elected or nominated as great as Kamala

Harris is. So yeah, I mean, I love that response because that puts the burden back on the white folk who are trying to congratulate him in a way. And he was saying, no, y'all messed up. Y'all could have had others. Look, look, Josh Gibson, Josh White, you celebrating Babe Ruth. Babe Ruth wasn't the greatest ball player. He was the greatest white ball player. Oh, my God. Are you kidding? Because he didn't play against the brothers.

Because if he played against the brothers, that would have been a different story. He wasn't playing against that black pitcher. They said Josh, was it Gibson or White, was the greatest home run hitter ever. Died very early. One of the greatest ever. Let's see him square off against a Babe Ruth, right? It's not like it was open like with Tom Terrific who just died. One of the greatest pitchers ever, top 10.

Mr. Met himself. That was a bad man. And he was pitching against Juan Marisette, Bob Gibson. We know Bob Gibson, one of the coldest ever flamethrowers. He was. I mean, man, that's my story. At 10 years old, when I saw him out here beating my team in Detroit, right? I was nine years old in Detroit, and he's throwing that fire.

I went down to my ghetto sandlot at the end of the block and started throwing that ball because Bob Gibson was inspiring me to do that. So yes, there are many other black people and John Thompson was as gracious as they come by saying many others could have been able to do this had they been afforded the opportunity to do so. Doc, you talked about President Obama. I remember growing up and my grandfather told you, he would always tell me, he'd say, son, you can be anything you want to but you'll never be president because they're not going to let no black man in the white house that's what i just remember him saying that so vividly you can be anything you can be a scientist you can be a doctor you can

be a lawyer you can be a professional athlete but forget put president out your mind they're not letting that happen i mean uh this is what tupac said way after you, you know, that, you know, it seems heaven sent, but they ain't ready for a black president. Right. Right. We're saying that. And that was the limit. That was the ceiling that was placed on us. You can do anything.

You can be Olympic champion. You can be baseball star. You can be a football star, wide receiver, Hall of Famer. What's your own show on Fox would skip. But you can't be the president of the United States of America. And when that barrier got lowered, my God, that's why they attack Obama so hard. That's why they attacked him so viciously, because they understood that's a real barrier now. Now you can't maintain other lies. If you maintain lies that black people can't do X when he's president, then you can be a nuclear physicist. You can be a theoretical physicist. You can be a scientist. You can be an. And that was the signal barrier that was dropped. And again, John Thompson understood the necessity of speaking honestly about the barriers that were imposed upon

Black people in this country. Well, that's what they did with the schools. Man, you can't go to Harvard. Harvard's too hard. Yale is too hard. Why don't you get your own institution and go there? Well, if you let me go in there, let me see if I can do the school. Let me see if I can do the curriculum. I don't need you to tell me without giving me an opportunity. It's easy for you to say, I can't do the curriculum if you don't allow me access to it. But give me an opportunity and let me see. No doubt.

And number one, some of them boys and girls at Howard are going to kick the butts of those at Harvard. Number two, some of them brothers and sisters at Talladega and Spelman and Morehouse are going to whip the butts of those who are at Yale. How do we know? Look at the movie with Denzel, The Great Debaters. And when we know that that actually occurred, that Harvard debaters got beat by HBCUs. So we know, first of all, y'all are denying our tremendous talent. I mean, Howard Thurman, the great mystic was there at what, Howard. Think about Thurgood Marshall,

a Supreme Court justice was at Howard University. Martin Luther King Jr., the greatest American who ever lived, as far as I'm concerned, out of Morehouse College. So first of all, stop hating on what we producing out of our institutions. But secondly, you're absolutely right. Let us see what we can do. Let's see what we can compete with. And even when they let us go to Harvard, Du Bois, Rayford, Logan, I think, Carter G. Woodson and stuff, they wouldn't let us teach there. Oh, we can go there and get the PhD, but then you ain't gonna let us teach at some of these schools. So they denied us opportunity at every level, blocking us, preventing us from flourishing when we had the capacity to exhibit the most profound erudition and learning that could be possibly shown in this culture.

that could be possibly shown in this culture. Doc, help me explain this to us. When we hear the term defund the police, what does that actually mean? Because I think people are confusing the two. They think that it means we're going to abolish the police. What does actually defund the police, what does that actually mean?

Right, that's great. Now, there are some abolitionists who are out here saying like, get rid of that. And who can blame, let me start right there. First of all, who could blame them? Even if we disagree, even if you think, oh my God, we need them. The point is given the amount of black people who have died, of poor yellow, brown, red, and other people of color who have died. Why would you be mad at Black people and others of their allies saying, and even some white people, abolish the police? So don't even act like you don't understand what that's about. But secondly, defund the police. You're absolutely right. What they're saying is let's reassign monies to other departments where we defund the police and refund that money to other organizations.

For instance, look at that tape, and I'm sure you've seen it, and if not, you'll see it soon, where the Black man who's clearly mentally ill is saying, give me that gun, give me this, give me this. He's on the ground. I just watched it last night. Daniel Prude in, I think it's Rochester, New York. Here's the thing, man. Your treat is worse than animals. We can't even say treat is like animals because you treat your animals so fine.

Some of y'all will put your dogs in care in ways you will deny to black people. So you see this man who is clearly mentally ill, and you put a white bag, a spit bag over his face and essentially suffocate him. And you asking us why we want to abolish the police or why we want to defund it. Because defunding police at that level means give the money to those who deal with mental health. Because a mental health person goes out there, yes, maybe we have some

safety and security. We'll grant that. There are other ways to do it besides the police department. So we reassign the policemen to departments where they can exercise safety, but not with the concentrated power of the cops, with the police department, with these police unions that undercut the ability of American democratic institutions to hold them to account. They are ruthlessly out of order, they are well funded, and they seem to act against the best democratic interests of the state. So when we say defund the police, we're saying take the money from the police department,

give a bunch of money to other social services that will serve the community. Because guess what? Only about 4% of the duties of the police are what lead to the death of black people the kind of violent interactions going out in homes this no knock warrant that killed brianna taylor and her murderers still have not been arrested the killers of brianna taylor need to be arrested even though one of them has been fired but it had nothing to do with his horrible behavior that night. So, Doc, did you see what happened? Not the guy that her boyfriend, her boyfriend that she was living with that they barged in on. But the ex-boyfriend.

Right. That is being reported. They offered him a plea. If you live, if you say she was a co-conspirator, you'll get probation. If you don't, we're going to give you 10 years. So in other words, this is why we barged in. This is why we killed her. Even if she was slinging more dope than El Chapo Guzman and Pablo Escobar combined, she didn't deserve to die. That's not your role.

Your role is to bring them in and then let the court system the d.a you let them handle it from there that's not your role right and they didn't even arrest someone that's right that's right but they were saying it was the present boyfriend right so they got the ex boyfriend and now the present one who was there with her they arrested him the other day for drugs so his this is amazing So you can get the quote drug dealers, but not the killed people who killed Breonna Taylor, whose names we know. So, right. Why is it that black people have to be perfect? We don't have to be perfect. Because if we go around killing every white person who's selling drugs, it'd be a lot of

dead white people. If we go around killing every white person who is wielding a gun and shouldn't be, a lot of dead white people. If we go around killing every white person who is wielding a gun and shouldn't be, a lot of dead white people. If we go around killing every white person who offends the law, if that's going to be your standard, they will be dead. So the reality is, is that as you say, let's not allow the police to be judge and jury. Let's allow the police to do what they're supposed to do. But this is why we should defund them. If we assign the responsibility of public safety to police people in different departments and don't concentrate it in those departments, then we could deal with qualified immunity because the department would be disassembled. And we would be able to challenge it in a certain way. and we would be able to challenge it in a certain way. We'd be able to get different people onto the courts who see the value of holding public servants to account

in what other area of public service do they get qualified immunity, where if they do some damaging thing, they will be automatically exempt. I mean, people, Richard Nixon had to get off, get out of the presidency because he was being threatened with some kind of potential legal action.

So. So, my friend, it is necessary for us to understand the police cannot be the judge and the jury defund them. I mean, L.A. gave up, what, one hundred and fifty million dollars of the budget. You know, I mean, right. San Francisco, about one125 million. So yeah, let's reassign monies to departments which can more effectively intervene in socially distressed situations that permit black and brown and red and yellow, and for that matter, white people, to live without the lethal consequences of police people who exercise their authority with ravaging intensity. Doc, why is it that our past, if you look at George Floyd, they talk about what he had gone to prison. If you look at Omar Brooks, you talk about, if I, listen, if I commit a crime, I go pay my debt to society,

be going to the penal system and maybe possibly paying a fine. What does that have to do with right then? I wasn't committing the crime that I went to prison for at that time, which led you to kill me. So I don't get, it's like our past always live with us, but our counterparts, they get to move beyond their past. I mean, you've laid it out there. And like you said, first of all, you didn't know that at that minute. So why are you trying to posthumously, retroactively kill me and justify it by some stuff you ain't even know? So we know that's poppycock. And as we said, if we did this to white our, quote, murder, our, quote, assault, our, quote, legal apprehension or being put to death because it was a justifiable homicide. Whatever they do,

using the facts of our existence, because we weren't perfect, nobody is, and then trying to use that imperfect past as justification, as you said, when again, if we tried to apply the same standard to white folk, there would be a lot more of them in prison or dead in their graves right now. Now, what role does the athlete play? And I commend any athlete that's willing to use their platform and speak up. But that's not what they signed up for. Guys that went into civil service, guys that went in to be a politician, the Chuck Schumers, the Nancy Pelosi's, the Lindsey Graham, Marco Rubio, Tim Scott, that's what you signed up for. But it seems to me, it's always

been the athlete that's normally been at the forefront of these movements. Especially ours, African-American people. I mean, other athletes have been credible and on the front lines, but for Black people, it's because when we didn't have black politicians, we had black musicians. And we had black athletes. Before we had William Dawson or Adam Clayton Powell, we had Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong. Cal Basie. Cal Basie. And so we were, those athletes, right? We had Joe Louis. We didn't have no United

States Senator in the Senate when Joe Louis was fighting. Jackie Robinson was playing, but Jackie Robinson was a Senator and Joe Louis was an ambassador and a congressperson, if you will, for our interests, for the Black community. So they were our mouthpieces. They were our vocal, articulate spokespeople to try to defend us, to try to stand up and speak for us. So when Sam Cooke or Aretha Franklin or, you know, Ray Charles came along, even as we were gaining a burgeoning political power, they were the voice pieces because white people admired them and they were able to seize the authority to articulate our viewpoints

and represent our interests because white people loved and admired them. So that's why we've turned to them. Even after we've gotten political representation, we still depend upon conscientious, you know, entertainers and athletes to articulate our noble ideals and aspirations. Doc, you know what I've noticed is that if a Black man or woman becomes successful and they speak about, speak out against inequality or racial and social injustice and things of systemic racism, they like, uh, you made it, why are you complaining?

But when whites, our counterparts, try to help their community, they never say, well, why are you complaining? If Jeff Bezos were to give $2 billion to help causes for his community, nobody would say a word. But if LeBron James speaks out, shut up and dribble, stick to basketball, stick to sports,

why do you care? Trade places. What is that about? I mean, it's about white supremacy. It's about white privileges. It's about failing to understand white complicity. It's about refusing to acknowledge the double standard. And again, it's failing to acknowledge that those athletes had to speak up and out in

the past in order for any interest of Black people to be expressed or articulated. And so, yeah, you're right. Be grateful. Why is Michelle Obama mad? This country gave you the ability to make a living. It gave you one too. It gave you ability to steal my stuff. It gave you ability to loot and rob and be thieves of Black opportunity and upward mobility. So yeah, you're right. They never asked them that question. If they help their neighborhoods, oh, they're being looked. Despite the fact that they're rich, they're reaching back. Despite the fact that they have tremendous money, they're speaking out. Look, when Donald Trump was speaking up and speaking out, nobody said he's a billionaire. Why is he talking about the working class white people? They said, thank God, we finally got

somebody speaking for us. So a white billionaire who really in truth doesn't give a darn, a fly and flip about poor white people is seen as their hero, but LeBron James can't even speak up for his people and be seen as a person who identifies with his people. That's the double standard that continues to prevail in this country. So you believe the athlete is really important in this movement for equality and injustice. And LeBron has his referendum that he's trying to register people to vote and get people to vote and understand your vote, is that your vote matter. Because for the longest time, Doc, I was one of those. My vote doesn't matter. It does matter. Because when you get five, six, seven million

people saying my vote matters, well, that's just not one vote. That's five or six million people voting. And it does matter. It does matter big time. And God bless you. I'm glad you changed your mind. That's the kind of great man you are. You could admit that you were wrong. People died for that vote. People shed blood for that vote. People got hit in the face for that vote. John Lewis got beat down for that vote. So yeah, let's be real here. Who are the three guys probably in the conversation for the GOAT? Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, right? I know who your GOAT is. But when you LeBron, right? I know who your GOAT is. But when you put social conscience on the platform, when you put outspokenness like that, and I love Jordan and Kobe. Kobe, you know my feeling about Kobe. Yeah, Kobe, your guy. Like this. If you're going to put it all together, LeBron had been the GOAT.

LeBron the stallion. He the horse. He the pig. The cow. The dog. He the farm. I mean, dog. It ain't even no comparison for what that man has done.

And so, you know, the comparison to anybody when standing up against him is, to me, feeble. And so, I mean, Jabbar was great. Jim Brown was great. But to have that peak performance, 35 years old, 17 years in the league, still playing like you five years in, still in incredible shape, still should be the MVP. I don't care what nobody says. Still playing the greatest.

Incredible. And you love black people without apology or excuse. Bruh. There's nobody near you. And so I think we need him. When LeBron sat down and said this, I don't know. Black people are scared. Black women, Black men, Black kids. He said, we're terrified. We don't know if that guy got up on the right side of the bed, the wrong side of the bed, that cop. We don't know if that cop had a horrible argument with his kid and went out the house steaming. He said, or if the cop basically said, this is the day I'm going to end one of their lives. He said, this is how it feels. Now,

LeBron ain't got no access to these people. He don't know. His point is, this is what it feels like to us. When the greatest athlete on the globe, right along with Serena, when the greatest athlete on the globe says that and identifies with Black people saying we're terrified and scared do you know what that does to articulate our meaning a politician can't say it that way right i don't care who i don't care what politician you are that lebron james who ain't got no office and nobody put him in office i'm gonna flip your argument ain't nobody he ain't went. I'm going to flip your argument. Ain't nobody, he ain't went to the polls. The polls were in the people who love him because of what he did. The affirmation of him as an extraordinary figure. It's even purer, right? He didn't have to run no

campaign. He showed up and did what he did and he's won the hearts of the masses. That's remarkable. and he's won the hearts of the masses. That's remarkable. So yeah, when Joe Louis was fighting Max Schmeling in the ring in the 40s, late 30s, early 40s, he's fighting fascism. He's fighting Nazism. Nazism, I'm sorry. Not just another white guy who's from Germany.

It's two different systems. Democracy versus Nazism on display there. These black athletes have been representative not only of their people, but of their nation in a way that the nation didn't deserve. Because when we went to fight in foreign wars and came back in our uniforms, they lynched us. They killed us. They murdered us. So yeah, a LeBron James, a Carmelo Anthony, a Chris Paul, all of the WNBA. My God, a Candace Parker, Diane Tauras. When you think about all of them, as great as the men have been, I mean, LeBron will stand up above anybody, but right under him, Maya Moore and all those great Black athletes in the WNBA, they've been ahead of this game. They got gunshot wounds where Blake was shot in the exact space. And his name on the front of their, they way beyond what the guys collectively are doing, but I'm loving what

the guys are doing as well. So yes, to answer your question, we still need them out there. Do you believe that the NBA and the potential boycott of the season, and how do you think it's going to impact the NFL? Because yes, they have bigger superstars in the NBA, but nobody but football is it. In America, football is the sport. So how do you think the carriers are going to be from the NBA to the NFL? I think, you know, Jared Jones might have to look at Dak Prescott. I don't know. What up, Dak?

Dak is a company man. I signed my tender. I mean, you know, I took your, you know, I got designated for this year so you can get me for this year. If you want to give me that 38 million and, you know, shut up and throw the pigskin is might as well what Jerry Jones might as well have said. And, but Jack came out, he was one of the ones who spoke out on the Black Lives Matter stuff when they sent the videos to Roger Goodell. I think it might be a brewing, if not an outright rebellion,

there is certainly the desire of these football players to take it to the next level. Now, I don't think they'll be as necessarily explicit as the NBA, but I think we've been surprised so far. Some of them have been. And I think it won't be as widespread, even though what, 69% of the players in the NFL are black. Yes. And yet at the same time, you know,

these white owners almost feel like they're running plantations out here, right? That's why the NBA has been able to get over because all you have to be is not Jerry Jones. You don't have to be great yourself, just not as bad as that dude. But with the potential strike, that strike that one day

of the NBA, what did that say to them? Ain't good enough. Don't tell me who you ain't. Tell me who you are. Tell me what you represent. Tell me the values you uphold. You know, when the Godfather,

when they come around the table and, you know, they're arguing after both of their sons have been killed. And the godfather, you know, is talking and I think it was, you know, it was one of the other godfathers. And he was like Barzini. That's what it was. Barzini all along. Barzini is sitting there. He says, we want you to share, Godfather, those politicians that you carry around in your pocket like so many coins. And he says,

when did I not accommodate anybody, right? That's how it feels for the NFL owners. Like, they got so many trinkets, so many Negroes in their pockets, like plantation syndrome. The NBA has been forced now with its owners to do more. Show us those politicians you have relationships with. Let's get them in some of this public policy. Let's get them on some of this law rewriting. Let's get them in some of this argument about how the police have to be held to account in a different way.

Let's use your influence, not just the money you've given us. We're grateful, but we made that money. You split in the pie because we all made the dough. We want you to use your influence to be far more significantly invested in trying to argue on behalf of racial and social justice for Black people in America. I think those ballplayers, the women and the men, are extraordinary and exemplary, and they did a great thing. Doc, how do you think Colin Kaepernick will be remembered? I remember having this conversation

in 2017, and I said, I believe in 20, 30 years, he will be looked at as one of these mythical human beings. I said, what you have to understand, I say, we look at Rosa Parks, Ms. Parks, we look at Muhammad Ali, we look at some of those guys in today's terms, but let's remember when they were doing what they doing, they weren't thought of like they were thought of now then. And I believe it's going to be the same thing for Colin Kaepernick. No doubt. Yeah. And probably not even that long.

Look, look at the difference between four years ago and now. He's already been seen as even Roger Goodell said, I'm sorry, we didn't listen to him. You know, you didn't think four years later, Roger Goodell would be forced to say, we did not listen to him and I'm sorry. And even though they may never be able to get their individual thing together, I mean, between Colin and the league, he's already been validated. He's already been affirmed. He's already been, you know, seriously seen as the person doing the right thing. And again, for all these white people, don't be violent. What was violent about putting your knee on the ground? Because Nate Boyer, a veteran, told you, Colin Kaepernick, hey, don't take a seat. That's disrespectful. Why don't you sit down? Now, if Colin Kaepernick wasn't respectful, you know what he would have said?

Later for you, homie. I'm going to do it the way I want. What did he say? I don't want to disrespect you. Let me do that. That showed you the man's heart. That showed you the man was willing to do the right thing. He didn't want to disrespect. He didn't want to distort his message. So he got on his knee as the veteran, the white veteran suggested, and still wasn't good enough. Because you know why? It's never good enough. You can never please the people you are trying to get off their plantation. You can't get a scholarship to Freedom School on Pharaoh's scholarship. Pharaoh ain't going to give no scholarship for you to go to Freedom School. It ain't going to happen, homie.

And so I think he will be respected as an Ali kind of figure in the sense of he gave up everything to be able to make his argument. I think he's one of the greatest athletic performers to do that. But let me tell you about why LeBron, to me, is even more effective. Because you see, when you can't deny the talent, when if you thought, oh, are we going to pull LeBron off if he's doing stuff?

If that was Tom Brady as a Black person, let me see, who? If that was Patrick Mahomes taking a knee, tell me you think that man would have been out of that league. Oh, no, absolutely not. So part of it had to do with the talent level, right? We know Colin Kaepernick at his height. I was at that game in New Orleans where Beyonce turned the power off

because she was so hot. I mean, doing her thing, doing her things. Jay, I didn't mean hot like I meant, you know, singing. Yeah, yeah, we did. So I was there where he was one catch away from frigging being a Super Bowl champion. I was right there. That's where you went. Baltimore won, didn't they?

I think I don't remember. Baltimore won, yeah. We hosted that Super Bowl. I was with CBS at the time. Absolutely, yes. So he was great. And at his height, he would have been undenied. But when he was declining a little bit, that just shows you LeBron is using his athletic

genius. And part of the reason he's able to stay on court was a different sport. But he's at his height still. He's still doing great things. And when you do great things, you can leverage that to your benefit. So I think nobody is going to be like LeBron, but I think what Colin Kaepernick is doing is remarkable. It is historic.

It will be legendary and rightfully so because he gave up his career to do what he's got to do. And yet the Lord has blessed him because he done caught on to another career that's going to last much longer than your football career would have lasted as a social activist. So you meant it for evil, they said about Joseph with his coat of many colors. My brothers put me in a pit, but God raised me up and put me in a palace. So he went from a pit to a palace and he's able to extend his career and tell the truth about social injustice,

I think well into his 40s and 50s and 60s should he decide to do so. Yeah, I think Cap ability has slipped just enough for them to use that against him because they didn't want to hear what he was saying. Oh, of course. That's LeBron James. That's any of these prominent NBA players taking that knee.

They're not going to be white. I used the term white ball because the negative connotation that comes along with things like everything that's bad is black, black market, you know, black Monday, black, you know, everything that's negative, black magic, black sheet. So I said use the term white ball because it was those 32. Even though Commissioner Goodell issued an apology to say we should have listened, he works at the behest of the owners.

No doubt about it. He's getting $40, $50 million a year to take those arrows that everybody's throwing. He gets to stand up, everybody boos, while they applaud the owners that's cashing $300 million checks every year. So that's what he's getting paid for. There's no question about it. The only good thing, I guess, would be Ken Chenault when he named it the black card. So the highest American Express is the black card. So we appreciate that. You got one, Doc. You got one. You got one, Doc. I know it. Wait, check this out. Mine was green last night, but I painted that thing because I know I was

going to be talking to you. So I said, I might have a black card. Baby, I put some shoe polish on that. That might be the only because that's the highest credit card that you could possibly get is a black card. Come on, bro. You know what? That might be the only good thing. No, a black man running a running American Express is the one who did it. Look at the subliminal effect of that, bro. Yes. Actually, I know Ken Chenault, and I may or may not have a black card.

That's not a good idea. Doc, you grew up in the Midwest. You grew up in Detroit. What is your memory of Detroit? Because Detroit was a part of the Great Migration. And I remember my aunts and my uncles and my grandparents saying a lot of Detroit because Detroit was a part of the great migration. And I remember my, you know, my, my aunts and my uncle, my grandparents saying a lot of their relatives left the South and I just can't deal with it anymore. I cannot take this sharecropping. I can't take this picking cotton.

I can't take these fields, this manual labor. I'm going to Detroit. I'm going to Chicago. I'm going to New York. It was Detroit was a part of the great migration. What do you remember about your childhood growing up in Detroit? Oh, man, I had a great time. Speaking about black, it's positive. Brother, I was born in 1958, man. I'm born during Jim Crow, right? My mom was from Alabama.

Daddy from Georgia. We used to go down south. South. I used to wonder, why can't we stop at the darn restaurant like everybody else doing? We got brown paper bag sandwiches, and I got to relieve myself. I can't even stop and go to the bathroom. I got to have a mason jar under the darn seat of the car. And I didn't understand that we were victims of white supremacy and racial injustice and Jim Crow as we went down beneath the Mason-Dixon line.

And so I remember that. I remember going, you know, saying, can we stop? Can we stop? Can we stop? Finally stopped in Tennessee. Grew up in there with my mama, didn't take my daddy in. He driving. You know why they weren't going to take the black man in there. Went in there and said, we don't serve niggas in here. And I asked my mama, what's a nigga? Right. She said, don't tell your father. That's what he said, because I knew my father would go in there and go off. She said, don't tell your father. That's what he said. Because I knew my father would go in there and go off.

So, you know, having that experience was amazing. Going down to my grandfather's farm was amazing in Alabama. But growing up in Detroit was magical. Black magic in the beautiful sense of that word. I mean, we had incredible, you know, black society. The black church. I went to an all black church, went to an all black school. High excellence. Now, they tried to starve us of resources. We were in the hood. We didn't have the resources of the white schools, but those teachers made us believe we could do anything. schools, but those teachers made us believe we could do anything. My first grade teacher,

Ms. Jefferson. Third grade teacher, Mrs. Harvey. Fourth grade teacher, Ms. Reed. Fifth grade teacher, Mrs. James, who gave us a sense of history. Black history, man, taught us everything. Changed my life, Mrs. James did. Sixth grade teacher, Mrs. Morris. Seventh grade, Mr. Burdett, Ms. Stewart. Eighth grade, Ms. Click. Man, I'm telling you, Ms. Ray, 10th grade. Those teachers were gods to us, right? They were demiurgists. They were tremendous superheroes who gave us a sense of who we were. And they told us that we could do anything. And I believed it, man. That was magical. Before Johnny Cochran, the great Johnny Cochran, one of my friends, I loved him. But there was a guy there named Kenneth Cockrell who cussed out the white judge, called him an old fay and some other words, I'm just telling you, and lived to tell about it and didn't get disbarred and used big old words. I remember when I heard him and I had heard Dr. King when I was nine years

old when he got shot, and I was sitting in the living room watching television, you know, the news was on, and then they announced that Dr. King was shot. They interrupted the regular program to indicate that Dr. King was shot. I may not get there with you, but I want you to know tonight, we as a people will get to the promised land. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man. My eyes have seen it. Then he turns around and falls into the arms of Jesse Jackson on one side and Ralph Abernathy on the other. I mean, that's my childhood. Bob Gibson striking out 17 batters in the first game of the 1968 World Series.

The riots of Detroit, the urban rebellion, 1967, dark trails of smoke going up into the clouds. I'm asking my mama, what is that? And she said, it's a riot. I said, what is that? And then she said, it's because of a, you know, a blind pig. And I said, what does a sightless mammal have to do with a darn riot? And a blind pig, of course, after I was joined, you know, in Detroit, and then the police raided it. And then, as now, Black people being hurt and abused and shot by the police. And we had had enough. And it erupted. So I grew up in a Black universe where the Blackness was the norm, where Black excellence was the expectation,

where Black genius was the normative expression of talent. And we believed that we could do anything. Now, I learned quickly in the riots about racism when Dr. King got killed about racism. In fact, when Dr. King got shot, we had an upstairs room. It was five boys, three or so, seven of us in the house, small house,

but we worked it out. We had a little balcony off the upper you know the upstairs um bathroom and i was scared to wash my face for two years in front of that window because i figured if they killed him and he didn't do nothing and he died on the balcony. They killed me too. Now my brother was like, you crazy man. Anybody even know you? You ain't famous. I said, it made me vulnerable. So I had a great time, a great experience and blackness is a norm. But then I faced the reality of whiteness and the white supremacy as well. I face the reality of whiteness and white supremacy as well. Well, Doc, so being born in 58, so you remember the Harlem riots, I think, in 64, the L.A. riots in 65, the Detroit riots in 67, Dr. King in 68.

Right. Newark, New Jersey, 67. That's right. Oh, yeah. And it's, Doc, what's the reoccurring theme of all the time the Blacks have rioted in America? There's an underlying theme, Doc. Police. It's the police.

After police coming straight from the underground. A young brother got it bad because I'm brown and not the other color. So police think they have the authority to kill a minority. It's been a constant theme. The police mistreat and the Black people. Watch 1965, Detroit 67, bro, 49. I mean, Tulsa, Oklahoma, they're dropping bombs on us, right? As citizens. But 1919, Chicago, the cops. I mean, when you think about what's going on, the mistreatment of Black people has been extraordinary. That's why King in his 1963 I Have a Dream central to the experience of black people. So that is the common denominator of our experiences as black people in this country with the police that has

led often to urban rebellions and social uprisings and riots in this country. Doc, let's get back, let's talk about your education. You matriculated, you went to an Ivy League school, you went to Princeton, you're a sociology professor at Georgetown University. What made you pursue academia? Well, you know, I was seen as a bright kid. I got a scholarship out to a suburban school. There's one of the top schools in the country, top 10 prep schools, maybe top five, Cranbrook. Went out there, never gone to school with white kids before.

Got jacked up. Racism. Got jacked up, man. Racism was out there big time, even among the elite, the affluent. I mean, on my door at night in the dorm room, this is when Roots was first coming out. And it was like, blank word, go home. Then they made an audio tape. We're going cigar fishing today.

Oops, no, we're not. We're going nigger fishing. What's the bait? How many grits? So this is a 1960s, 1976, you know, 77. I mean, you- I think Roots came out in 77. Yeah.

So 1977, when it was coming out, I think I went, you know, I went there, had that experience. It was horrible. Got kicked out, came back, went to night school. You know, got a girl pregnant. I ain't saying it was a shotgun wedding, but a revolver was in the room. Ah!

pregnant i ain't saying it was a shotgun wedding but a revolver was in the room i was i was uh what 18 she was 26. what yeah i ain't gonna speak on on on on what that was about but anyway you see that the world of old they see you try hey like the world people say you're being fancy doc you're being being mannish out there. Wait, wait, wait. Watch this. Watch this. Yellow niggas got some surprises, too. But anyway, so I had a son.

I was a teen father. Quickly got divorced. Woman said she didn't even love me. I was like, dang, you could have told me this before we got married. Didn't go to college until I was 21. I said I was an emergency substitute janitor. I hustled on the street. I picked up steel with my father so we could wear downtown.

I painted houses. I shoveled snow. I did whatever it took to support my family. At 21, I said I got to go back to college to support my son. Went to Knoxville College, historically black college down in Knoxville. And then, you know, became a, I was an ordained minister at the same time. And I thought I was going to be a preacher. I am a preacher, but I thought I was going to be an ordained minister. I've been an ordained minister for 41 years, but I thought I was going to pastor. I passed the three different churches in Tennessee.

But when the third one put me out because I was trying to ordain black women, I was way ahead of the game. I wasn't just talking to talk. That was in 1982, 83. Yeah. That was, that was, that was, that was really a no, no back then, Doc. I mean, it was, they didn't really allow women in the pulpit, let alone be a minister. Not at all, but I wasn't stupid.'t stupid so i said well i'm gonna go here first and i'm gonna teach for a year and and teach them how to just so they can become deacons

so i wasn't trying to ordain women as ministers i was just trying to ordain them as deacons that was still a no-no too but i think i'll start right there now i already got kicked out of school for not going to i got kicked out of school for not going to, I got kicked out of school. I was straight A's in philosophy because I was protesting the fact they only had one speaker a year. And I said, why? They said, given your number, son, that's all you deserve. That's the percentage of black people here. You only deserve one speaker a year. I was like, man, later for all that.

So I protested. You have to go to a chapel every Tuesday. And I got kicked out of school. So then I went to pastor. Then I got kicked out of school. So then I went to pastor. Then I got kicked out of pastoring. I got up one Sunday morning. I went to church, the keys wouldn't fit the door. I was like, oh, okay, they're giving me some new keys.

Okay, went to my office, keys didn't fit. I said, oh, okay, they gonna hook me up with a new office. Man, these people are good. When I did a preach, I said, man, it's a lot of people out here I ain't never seen before I said I must be getting good dog they're members of the church they called there to try to put my black butt out of there and they voted they got up after I preached they said pastor there's a problem in the church I said well let's deal with it Deacon he said the

problem is you man they voted that day put my black butt out gave me one month severance pay and told me to hit the road brother and i had a wife and a child so you know i know that it ain't just black and white it's right and wrong bro that's what the bottom line is right so uh i got kicked out of school went to pastor got kicked out of church went back to pastor, got kicked out of church, went back to school. I said, well, I might as well finish what the wife wrote and complete my degree. And while doing that, I said, I don't think I want to pastor. I think I want to teach. The Lord has revealed to me that might be my strength. So, you know, I got into Vanderbilt, tremendous school, got into Brown, tremendous school, got into Princeton.

So I ended up going to Princeton out of those three schools. And as they say, the rest is history, man. And I didn't go to college until I was 21, so I made up a lot of time and tried to do a lot of things and, you know, sail through school, you know, become a full professor. you know, become a full professor. I got my, I got my PhD one year. The next year I had tenure and a full professorship at University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. I left Brown where I was already teaching. They were going to give me tenure there, but I got overnight in one year, what it takes people 18, 20 years do, I got tenure and full professorship. So I said, let me make up for the lost time I had out there and do what I got to do. And I said, I'm going to write books. I'm going to teach young people. I'm going to try to use my platform to tell the truth and to fight for justice. And that's what

I've tried to do. Doc, what do you think is HBC's role in this? Obviously, they do not have the financial backing. I mean, they have some alumni, but the alumni is not like a Bill Gates or Warren Buffett or one of these guys is going to give a billion and $2 billion to the endowment fund. So what role does HBCU play in educating the youth of Black America? Well, that's a great, that's a great point and a great question. I mean, they're critical. They're serious. I mean, you're going to have handle Robert Smith going to Morehouse for giving $43 million of debt.

It just ain't going to happen. That's a drop in the bucket, right? Because what you're thinking about, I mean, as incredible as that gesture was, but, you know, think about the endowment of Harvard is what? I don't know, $7, $8 billion? Maybe more? Maybe more to that dollar. It's maybe up to $20 billion by now.

You know? So, Princeton, where I went, $20, $23 billion? I mean, come on, man. So, maybe more maybe more to that doc it's maybe up to 20 billion by now you know so princeton where i went to 2023 billion i mean come on man so but a high percentage of black people who graduate from college still graduate from hbcus and i'm you know people say why is that you go to these white schools pwis that didn't mean that's not PWT with Michael Jackson pretty young thing predominantly white institution sometimes black people and brown people and red and yellow people are so tired after four years they done beat my butt so bad I don't want to see no school I'm done whereas you go to Howard, Morehouse, Talladega, Spelman, you go, I'm the stuff. I can do anything. I'm smarter than anybody. And then they go on to graduate school. They go on

to get graduate degrees and terminal degrees. So they've been supported and stood up for four years. I mean, you know, treated in a way where they become upstanding citizens, I mean, and they are backed and undergirded by the belief that they are doing something extraordinary, whereas they're beat down at the white schools. So those black schools serve a critical function. All three of my kids went there. Son Morehouse, other son Hampton, and my daughter Spellman. I started Knoxville College. Those schools are extremely important in valuing Black life, in supporting Black knowledge, in supporting Black people who will do tremendous things, and giving them a sense that what their value and goal and struggle is, is worthy of support and that those institutions continue

to play a key role in the education and the support of black people in this nation. I myself went to HBCU, SSU, the Tigers. And like you said, doc, I really believe that was the best thing for me because I believe my professors sincerely cared about me. I don't really know how many of them knew I played football because I don't remember seeing any of them at the game, but they educated me. They saw something in me. They wanted me to do well, even if the football aspect, because they're on my resume.

They're professors. They're doctors at Savannah State. They're on my resume. So if I go out into the world and I don't do well, well, where'd you graduate from, son? SSU. So they needed to prepare me to make sure I made them look good. And I like to think I've done a great job of that. You've done a hell of a job. You've made them so proud. I mean, Hall of Fame.

But more than that, a better man than the Hall of Fame, a deep and insightful thinker, a man whose desire for self-improvement has driven you to the heights of yet another profession. That's remarkable. That's incredible. And that's a testimony, not only to your own internal drive and desire, but to the kind of pedigree of those teachers who took you under wing and mentored you in a fundamental fashion. Doc, like I said, when I introduced you, obviously you're a sociology professor. You got all these degrees. You taught all these classes. You can wax poetically about sports. You can wax poetically about religion, the hip-hop culture. about sports. You're going to write poetically about religion, the hip hop culture. Jay-Z, you taught a class on Jay-Z. You wrote a book on Jay-Z. You're close to Jay-Z. Give us some insight. Give the people some insight into Jay-Z and what makes him great. I mean, just like you, he's a humble and self-possessed brother. Now, when he's got to

talk about his greatness on record, he's going to do that because he can hang with the best of them. But as an individual and a human being, this is not an arrogant dude. He's a confident man, beautiful spirit. People think he's very reserved in the sense that he's cool. He's got passion, but he's able to articulate his ideas with eloquence, with intelligence. Anybody who sits down with Jay-Z

will discover within one minute of how smart he is, how well-read he is, how he understands the complicated, nuanced perspectives of a variety of fields, including business and entrepreneurship, but also committed deeply to social justice. I can't tell you how many meetings I've been in with him where he's trying to leverage his authority as a billionaire in this country. And Tyler Perry just joined him.

What up, Tyler? What's up? Madea is now a billionaire. So when you think about that, all that he possesses, he can still keep it real he can still spit with the best of them he's like lebron 50 years old and he's still you know he's still out there doing it on the internet they're like you should spit it i'm like you should buy it brother that's good business so he's still out there doing his thing just dropped the song with pharrell 50 years old making relevant rap music, understanding his place and position of authority in this culture, married to Beyonce, and as partners, they have produced three beautiful children. They are magnificent parents. He's a remarkable

human being, and people don't understand. I know they got mad at the NFL deal. Look, it's Starsky and Hutch. It's inside, outside. It's three-point shot. It's baseline. We need both and, not either or. And what he has done to encourage Roger Goodell and the NFL to do some stuff they would have never done. Where do you think that campaign for all those commercials came from? And indeed, even though it didn't work out, there was pressure from him within the house of the NFL to grant Colin Kaepernick a trial. So a lot of stuff people don't understand. Jay-Z has been behind and is an extraordinary figure. And he's got a woman running his company, Desiree Perez, the CEO. People don't even mention that kind of credit to Jay-Z for credit in the sense that he understands that regardless of your gender or your sexual orientation, look how he spoke about that, his mother coming out the closet and embracing the full beauty of her identity as a lesbian. So this man has been through a lot, has written about it, has talked about it, has made great music about it, and

continues to be an inspiration musically, but also has evolved to an epic businessman, a global entrepreneur, and a kind of advocate for justice who's strong and who's consistent who to go I just need to know who to go I mean Kobe you'll go to basketball I don't know who you go to in football you go back and forth I mean one minute is Tom Brady and then you like Jerry Rice and so I don't know I know it's basketball but I need to know who to go to hip-hop in his rap thing know if but i need to know who the golden hip-hop in his rap thing as a as a football player i'd still say jerry rice but i don't know but but but but i don't know tom brady is tom brady greatest quarterback ever ain't no doubt about that i mean the goat it's like what jordan says about different genres and eras right you think about think about standing by the speaker suddenly i heard a fever

wasn't me or either summer mad as you think about rock him rock you you think about standing by the speaker suddenly i heard a fever wasn't me or either summer mad as you think about rock him rock you you think about rock him doing his thing but then the game changed up but look it'd be hard to put anybody above jay and naz who's gonna who's above jay and i mean who's above jay and naz bro who's above jay and naz i just i don't and i love. Biggie and Tupac. I love Biggie and Tupac, but I'm talking about skill, longevity, the ability to produce over space and time, to even be seen as having not a hit record and then coming back. I mean, man, Jay and Nas, those guys there to me are unparalleled in terms of what they're able to do.

And Jay-Z is in a class by himself as an entrepreneur who's become a billionaire and an artist and look at what Nas has done by leveraging his own artistic milieu and his genius as a rhetorician not only to great businesses, but also as a socially conscientious, you know, above ground, you know, positive, conscious rapper. So both, I mean, Jay and Nas are just incredible. It would be hard, it would be hard to outrank them.

And then there are a lot of other great people. Like you said, Biggie, Pac, I mean, look, Scarface, Common, you know, Black Thought is, I mean, look, Scarface, Common, Black Thought. I mean, there's so many. Lauren Hill. KRS-One. OK, Doc, I know you watch this.

Light of the Rock, MC Light. I mean, come on. You watch this versus battle. We saw Ludacris and Nelly. We saw Erykah Badu and Jill Scott. We saw Snoop and DMX. We just saw Monica and Brandi. So, okay.

And so if it's going to be Jay versus Nas, who's the next versus battle you'd like to see? Oh, man. The Jay Nas would be off the chain, really, because they're friends. Because those things, those versus are not really versus against anybody. It's just really sharing your catalog with other people,

even though people are going to make judgments. But, yeah, I mean the monica and brandy was dope i mean both of them are amazing uh i would love to see uh queen latifah and mc light that would because they're both of them are so dope yes they are so dope uh that would, because they're both of them are so dope. Yes. They are so dope. That would be amazing. If you think about a Scarface, who's one of the greatest slept on of all time, versus maybe a Beanie Siegel, you know, I think that would be off the chain too. Because the density or a Black Thought, you know, versus a Royce, the 5'9". I mean, you know, you know, versus a Royce to five, nine.

I mean, you know, these are geniuses. Everybody I've mentioned to you are rhetorical masters of their art form. Oh, I got one. If they were both alive, Prince, Michael Jackson. Oh my God. Yeah, who you got? I mean, Prince is Duke Ellington and Michael Jackson is Louis Armstrong.

So, so, you know, Duke Ellington played instrument. Yes. You know, could compose. Yes. Could play, could do the whole thing, right? Yes. And I mean, he didn't sing, but might have you know did a couple things but then louis armstrong yeah but that's sashmo but he played that horn right he composed up but he

was you know so they had different and i remember once i think it was uh you know uh wenton marcellus who made that comparison between jordan and magic johnson or was it magic johnson and bird i don't know but he was talking about the difference between Armstrong and between Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington. So both, I mean, and I, look, I knew Prince better. I met him a few times. He brought me to his compound, a genius. Only time I met Michael Jackson in the bathroom at the funeral of Johnny Cochran, and he's washing his hands. This is before COVID, clearly. I like how you talk on TV.

I said, I like how you sing on stage. I mean, Michael Jackson as a performer is, until Beyonce. I know people are going to get mad out there. I don't care what y'all say. Ain't nobody doing what Beyonce do for two hours. You're unbelievable. Non-stop. I saw him.

Michael was going to do the thing. He's unbelievable, Doc. Stop. Let me tell you something. Michael Jackson, take a break. I ain't mad. You do your little thing. You do the moonwalk and all that other stuff.

And he was great. Then you take a little break and do some other stuff. This woman is singing straight for two hours at the height of her vocal capacity and performing. Greatest entertainer of all time. But before her, it was Michael Jackson. And Michael's still number two, you know, to me. But I mean, greatest entertainer at his point i mean prince is a phenomenal entertainer but i'm gonna take prince doc you get all that running around i'm taking prince he's gonna play the guitar and he's gonna sing he's gonna dance i mean if you want a one-man concert it's gonna be him no question about it so i can't be mad at that but they're both geniuses okay well but body of work i don't know it'd be you said you

said beyonce is the great so who you want to see beyonce go against or is there anybody worthy of going against beyonce i mean who could beyonce really i guess taylor swift i don't know i mean maybe maybe but none of them ain't nobody got her catalog i mean ain't nobody fooling with b anybody fooling would be like that well how about this if she was alive Whitney Houston Mariah Carey oh that would be a hell of a one yeah that'd be a hell of a one you know because you hey because both of them had unbelievable range oh no doubt I'm talking about from here to here but no doubt now Mariah's range was greater in terms of those notes but passion and color of what whitney did is so powerful i mean and they loved each other and their boys you know people try to compare them but there's you know no comparison in terms of what he did in his i mean her own

length but both of them yeah that would that would be doper than dope man doc bro i really appreciate your time. You laid it down for us today. I know you're a busy man. You got a busy schedule. You're in the process of writing enough, finishing up another book. And you gave me a few hours of your time today.

Doc, I really appreciate it. You're Shannon Sharp. You're sharper than most people. You cast a broad shadow of your humanity. I love your ability to talk. You and Skip, you know, inspire me. A black man, a white man on television every day telling the truth about race in ways that we don't get in most arenas. So I honor you.

I celebrate you, your desire to get better, and the extraordinary talent you have exhibited. You're just the best brother. So it's always an honor to hang out with y'all and an honor to hang out with you and to do this program. Thank you, brother. Thank you. I appreciate it. I'll see you down the road, Doc. Look forward to it. All my life, been grinding all my life. Sacrifice, hustle, pay the price. Want a slice, got the roll of dice dice that's why all my life i've been grinding all my life all my life been grinding all my life sacrifice hustle pay the price

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