Club Shay Shay - Nightcap - Hour 1: Monica McNutt on her viral exchange with Stephen A. Smith on First Take

Episode Date: June 4, 2024

Shannon Sharpe and Chad "Ochocinco" Johnson are joined by ESPN analyst Monica McNutt to discuss the social media discourse around Caitlin Clark and the WNBA and her viral First Take exchange with Stephen A. Smith.03:41 - Show Starts04:04 - Monica McNutt Joins Nightcap28:26 - Angel Reese Comments30:30 - Pat Mcafee Comments48:00 - Mavs vs Celtics57:20 - Kyrie reflects on Celtics(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.)#Volume #ClubSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Download GameTime today. Last minute tickets, lowest price, guaranteed. Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and boy, do we have a special show for you tonight. It's another episode of Nightcap. I am your favorite on Shannon Sharp. Bottom left, he's your favorite, number 85. He's a route runner extraordinaire.

He's a bingo ring of fame honoree. He's a pro bowler. He's an all pro. Out of Liberty City. Y'all know him. Chad, Ocho, Cinco, Rosado, Johnson. In the bottom right, weighing in at 6'4", 137 pounds, the lady Hoya herself.

Y'all saw her this morning. She's trending. She's a Georgetown Hoya alum. She played in the WNBA, and she's the one that you need to go to all things basketball. Women, young women, boys, men, y'all see her, Monica McNutt. Thank you for joining us for another episode. Thank you guys so much for joining us.

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merch. So thank you guys. We have an interview special with Bad Boys, Martin Lawrence and Will Smith that's coming up later in the show. But as I said before, we're joined by Monica McNutt. Please go follow her on her social media. McNutt Monica.

I guess somebody took Monica McNutt. You can pay $150, Monica, and get the name back. But you say, nah, I'm just going to flip it around. There we go. There we go. I like that last name. Hi, guys.

Thanks for having me. No, thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, Monica joining us, hopefully not the last time. Monica, we had a very healthy, that's the term I like to use, a healthy discussion this morning. You said, Shannon, I knew I was in trouble because you normally call me when you call me, Shannon. I'm like, oh, here we go. You said, Shannon, Steve and A, this deserves a more nuanced conversation. You know how television works. You got the top of

the hour. You got the bottom of the hour. You got to get in and out. And you got a lot of people. I wanted to get, because we reached out to you earlier today asking, could you come on? You said yes. So I want to give you an opportunity. What do you want to say, Ocho? Before y'all go, being that y'all have a better knowledge of the game of basketball, whether it be NBA or WNBA, as someone on the outside looking in that was able to watch y'all this morning, I want to tell you that was peak elite sports journalism as far as conversation is concerned. There are going to be so many different opinions, whether wrong, whether right.

Monica, I didn't know you could cook. I didn't know you was a chef. Because, honey, you was cooking this morning. You hear me? You was cooking. You had your points. But the passion and authenticity, Monica, that you spoke with today. Well, I'm talking about, man,

bro, I was on the edge of my seat. You made your point. And then, Monica, you and Stephen, they going back and forth. And I'm sitting on the edge of my seat like, man, what is going on? That was, listen,

that was peak elite. I'm talking about elite television. So anytime there's any type of NBA topics, WNBA topics, if the execs at ESPN knew what they were doing, they need to make sure they had that same trio and all along with Molly, because that was great. That was fabulous.

I'm just saying, like, I'm not saying it because you're on a goddamn show tonight, because you see I'm cursing. That shit was fucking fabulous. That was good TV. Well, the thing is that, Ocho, that when you do television, and Monica attested this,

you never know what you're going to get. Because you have so many, you have sometimes two, three, maybe even four people, and it's an opinion-based show. Monica had her opinion. I had mine. Stephen A had his.

And so Monica says a topic like this deserves a more nuanced conversation that we don't have to worry about getting into a break so if monica needs to talk 15 minutes straight we can allow monica to do that monica the topic came up uh basically is caitlin clark is the nba or some of the players in the wnba um have a personal vendetta? Are they envious? Are they jealous? Are they if they're resentment? I think the term resentment even showed his head up into the conversation. So I want to turn the floor over to you. What point do you want to reiterate?

What point did you didn't get an opportunity to make that you would like to make now? The floor is yours. Well, so let me I'm going to take you two would like to make now the floor is yours well so let me i'm gonna take y'all two things happen to me i actually went to the liberty game on friday and this episode sort of speaks to the growth of the game my fiance and i we just take the train home because it's easy to spend new york and there are uh a couple of white boys one of them went to auburn his brother went to university missouri um his girlfriend was with them another another young white man. And they're probably in their late 20s. One of them might have been in their early 20s.

And it was a Black woman that clearly just left the Liberty game that sat across from them. And they just spark up, y'all, this spontaneous conversation about women's basketball. And yes, it was about this particular play. And it was a little bit about the Sky Angels. And it was Caitlyn. It was about the Liberty. And I'm looking at my fiance like, this is crazy. Like, we're just on a train and folks that you might think are watching the WNBA pop into this conversation and they're both engaging. They started talking about Auburn

and the Tuskegee and I was peak ear hustling for the record, but they was loud. But I say that to say, Ochoa and Shannon, I get that we are at a special place when it comes to women's basketball and the growth of the game and all of the eyeballs. I think what I was frustrated by in our conversation earlier is that we can hold more than one truth, y'all. The idea of some players

being jealous, yes, that probably exists. But I think in Caitlyn's debut, since she has made her debut, there's been a large and loud clamor or push. Yes, that is Caitlyn versus the W. Okay.

And that is unfair. Okay. To me, yeah. Jealous, sure. I mean, would you be jealous of somebody that got $28 million a shoe deal or whatever the deal is? Before you step foot in the pros? Right? I just need us all to do a better job

of holding room for multiple truths. Jordan has a rookie, Joe, right? LeBron has a rookie. Like, Wimby has a rookie. When you look at guys that have gone on to be great, I'm sure they would not say their rookie years were cakewalks. Now, in the case of LeBron,

and if we use Wimby this year, they have physically dominant and powerful statures and so maybe that has allowed them to skirt some of her yeah but Caitlyn is a guard coming from college right she got to get her weight up the W has to continue to allow her to be one of the leaders of this platform as Angel Reese has also been because I know that's gonna be a hot topic tomorrow and so my whole thing is just it doesn't have to be either or. It can be both. But the prevailing idea that it's the W versus Caitlyn

and that these women don't understand the power of the eyeballs and the audience that she's helped grow the league to, that's just unfair. And that's what bothers me. Go ahead, Ocho. Listen, again,

from the outside looking in, I have come to enjoy watching WNBA now. As a new fan, I had the opportunity looking in, I have come to enjoy watching WNBA now. As a new fan, I had the opportunity, Monica, to see the Dream play the Wings. I mean, yeah, the Dallas Wings, right? Dallas Wings in Atlanta maybe two or three weeks ago. And I have never been in an atmosphere like that. From the game to the enthusiasm with the crowd, the DJ,

everything was jumping from first quarter to fourth quarter. The halftime show was phenomenal as well. So the engagement and the experience that I had at that WNBA game when the Dream played the Wings, that's what I'm expecting now. I have a chart with the misses

where we're starting on the East Coast and we're working our way up to the West Coast. I'm starting with, I'm going to another dream game. Then I'm going to make my way to Dallas. And from Dallas, I'm going to Chicago to see the sky. From the sky, then I'm going to LA to see the Sparks. And then we're going to

Phoenix, and then we're going to finish off in Vegas. Now I'm hoping, based on the experience I had in Atlanta, in that stadium, I'm hoping the rest of the atmosphere is like that too. Obviously, the game of basketball is good. I've come to learn all the players now. I have a bunch of jerseys that I bought on my road trip. I'm hoping, I'm not sure how, I don't know them personally.

I'm hoping they'll sign my jersey so I can put it up here in my man cave. And I'm locked in now. I'm hoping, I'm not sure how, I don't know them personally. I'm hoping they'll sign my jersey so I can put up here in my man cave. And like, I'm locked in now. I'm locked in. And watching y'all this morning solidifies everything. Because obviously, I'm a new fan.

I'm new eyeballs to it. And I think, I think, after this year, they will almost, I'm not saying they're going to be able to compete with the NBA. They will almost, from an exciting standpoint, what's going to happen next? Okay, so let me ask you this.

Let me ask you this, because this is where I'll turn to Shannon for me this morning. I just want to mush them. Let me just give you a hypothetical, Ocho. Come on, come on now. Let me take you back to your playing days, right? Okay, okay, okay. Boom. This new corner. He, he, bop, bop, bop. He all this. Big fat

contract. You about to square up with him, Ocho. What are you going to do with squaring up against a cross from somebody who was supposed to be all this and all that for the future of the league? Oh, he finna get his work, bro. Hey, honey, he finna get his work. league. Oh, he finna get his work, what? Hey, honey, he finna get his work. You hear me? He finna get

his work. You ain't miss a beat when you said that, don't you? So all of a sudden, some in the media have allowed this idea of roll off the yellow brick for gold, roll off the red carpet because this is your cash cow. Why that idea has caught so

much steam blows my mind. Because we are still talking about competition, which is a beautiful thing that y'all both have made millions off of. Let me ask you a question though, Joe, to Monica's point. That hot shot corner, he's a top five pick. Let's just say for the sake of argument, he's standing there.

You're going to roll up in the back of his legs? Oh, I see. I see where you're going. No, no, no. Don't see what I'm saying. Just like you fired off like, Monica, I need you to fire off when you roll up in the back of his legs? Oh, I see. I see where you're going. No, no, no. Don't see what I'm saying. Just like you fired off like Monica, I need you to fire off when you roll up in the back of his legs. I'll be trying to use my technique.

Don't be trying to use my technique. No, no, no, no, no. You know, yeah. You know, I don't take no cheap shots. You know that. Okay, that's it. So, I'm going to stay with Shannon's example because now you're back to Shannon

because you're going to my nurse. Now, Ocho, you're not going to do that. And tell me what percent of the league you probably think would probably agree with you. As far as not doing that?

Yeah, no, nothing dirty. Probably about 98% because there's a 2% chance there's something that really don't give two you-know-what and they'll do it. Okay, so I hate math.

In fact, my friend said last time he calls me a mathematician all the time. But let's just roll with me for a second. We got 11 games. We got one incident.

I think that's a little less than 10% of the events so far in which this has happened to have a conversation. So I just want us to hear out that competing,

because you have been deemed the next step, is a part of competition, man or woman, right? We all agree that Kennedy Carter had a bad look. We all agree that was a bad look for her. And I'm not making an excuse for that.

I think the thing is also, Monica, who did the look, given her track record, and who the look happened to. Ocho, I used the argument this morning. Trent Green got hit in the pocket in his knee, and they didn't train the rules. 11 years later, 8 years, 9 years later, Tom Brady got hit in the knee. What did they do to the rules about hitting the quarterback below the waist, Ocho?

They changed the rule right away. So I think, Monica, to your point, had it not been, had it been someone else that doesn't have the track record of Ms. Carter, and if it wasn't on the person who she did that to, I agree with you. I don't believe the outcry would have been what it was, but it was because of who it was. And I'm actually add this. I think the fact that it wasn't called a flagrant on spot is probably what helped elevate this conversation. But then, we're talking about bad officiating

across the NBA and WNBA for however long. Do you know what I mean? So, literally, Shannon, we get the call this morning that we're going to leave the show with this. And I'm like, this is the most non-story story

I think we've ever led a show with. Because to me, it's just not that big of a deal. Hey, it made for great TV. That's not what Twitter, that's not what we're training. That is, and you know how TV, Monica, you've been in TV long enough. You know what leads.

People are like, man, all y'all do is talk about the Cowboys. The Cowboys, people want to talk about the Cowboys. People want to talk about Kaitlyn Clark. All of a sudden, a larger percent want to talk about the WNBA, which is good. What is bad is that they're not talking about the WNBA in a positive when you're looking at it in this situation. And I get what you're saying.

You're like, yeah, it's a nuanced conversation. And two things can be true. People want to compete this was an isolated incident there's not a whole lot of incidents where people are clotheslining clayton clark tripping or shoving or doing petty things of that nature so let's look at this this is what it was this happened but let me ask you a question tell me you and i we talked about it like damn we're teammates y'all saw the girl get clocked in the back like that ocho you know in football you do something the one i got especially one of

our main guys oh we got this we got to get you back monica but we got to make it look like it's a part of football okay right and i think making it look like a part of the game is a huge thing but i'm gonna tell y'all a story in college we played louisville and we actually got the rule changed in women's college basketball because louisville used to take a lap around the court around the whole court we were in your home stadium and they did it everywhere they did it at george at georgetown in mcdonough arena we were on our side warming up i'm not gonna name any of my teammates because I still love them dearly. Somebody tripped up somebody from Louisville and a brawl ensued.

We made it to the sports center in a little dun-dun-dun. Now, Monica is not a fighter. Do you know what I did in that moment? You scrapped. No, I grabbed the basketball and said, y'all stop we gotta get

what i'm saying to you is if your dna is not i'm a goon i'm enforced i'm finna scrap that's not a switch that you can just turn over if i had if i was on the baseline and we would i was actually in the tussle, then I'd have had to flight or fight, right? But I was shooting a jump shot. I looked down and they were scrapping and I was like, oh no, we can't do this, right?

And so this idea that the personalities on the fever squad all of a sudden need to turn into enforcer is unfair to who they are. They go pick their teammate off the ground. They grab her. They encourage her to calm down and take a deep breath. We're not in their practices i don't think that is oh they must not love her like i

think we might be reading a little bit too deeply and y'all they've won two games out of the 11 they played they got some real things to worry about in terms of trying to win versus trying to play yeah but let me ask you a question could it be be a situation if they had a better winning record? It's like, man, y'all talking about this team. Y'all talking about this person. And she's shooting 40%. They only won two games. Y'all talking about it like she's Stewie.

Y'all talking about them like they the Connecticut Sun or the Aces or somebody. Come on now. As women, do you guys guys because I know look y'all keep talking about this and they ain't done anything do y'all do you hear that and get fed up

like hold on bro there are other people out there playing the game too now come on now I know that this is not journalism one-on-one Ocho but I'm gonna flip it right back to you

huh when you were competing at a high level if somebody was appointed next up and they team was not, the needle wasn't moving in the W column and you felt like you were better then

and had earned more accolades and attention then, how was you going to respond? I'm trying, me, anybody that had a name, I'm trying to embarrass them because I'm trying to elevate my name. Yeah. That's the way I went about it, Monica,

is that I wasn't going to do it. Now, all I needed to know, and I told Ocho and Ocho can attest to this, all I needed to know, are we playing snap to whistle or snap to after the whistle? I just know, so I just need to get in the right frame of mind

to how we going to do it. Because if we being nasty, I just need to know at the start of the game, okay, we going to be some nasty mofos for four quarters. I'm down. Yeah. I mean, listen,

even though the Fever have only won two games, we have to understand the Cowboys, they haven't won in, what, 30-something years. Yeah. They still move the needle.

The Lakers, they haven't won, well, 2020. I mean, I'm not sure if we count, but there's an answer behind that. But again, the Lakers, haven't won well 2020 I mean I'm not sure if we count but there's an answer

behind that but again the Lakers they moved the needle the Yankees they haven't won the World Series I'm not sure in how long but they moved the needle

Caitlin Clark she moved the needle Angel Reese she moved the needle I mean that's just that's just the makeup of it and that's the way

it will always be and it's going to be like that for a long time I wish people would get comfortable with that and that's the way it will always be. And it's going to be like that for a long time. I wish people would get comfortable with that. And that's the way it's going to be. And you created a different demographic, a different set of eyes. And they're going to enjoy the game.

And now I'm excited to watch the WNBA because I want to see what's going to happen next. Because I have no idea. I have no clue. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast NFL daily with Greg Rosenthal five days a week you'll get all the latest news previews recaps and analysis delivered straight to your podcast feed by the time you get your coffee no dumb hot takes here just smart hot takes we'll talk every single game every single week but I can't do it alone, so I'm bringing in the big guns from NFL media.

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This is Michael Rapoport, and I have been professionally podcasting for 10 years. The podcast game has changed so much, and if you're looking for the most disruptive, most consistent podcast in the world, then subscribe to the I Am Rapaport Stereo Podcast today. We're talking sports. Steph, KD, Anthony Davis, and LeBron, they were better. And those teams pushed them to greatness. They brought the greatness out of politics. These people are not your friends. They're looking for your votes. This is not a popularity personality contest. To me, it's a

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and dirty plays. It's not only disrespectful to the rest of the league, but it's disrespectful to her. We talked to her two years ago in Dallas at the NCAA championship game. And you guys are probably

all seeing the features at this point. Grew up playing with the brothers, was the ultimate competitor. And so as a competitor, you don't want to buy a square for a cross from you and take it lightly.

You're trying to go through yourself. And so for me, the fact that we've lost, that at the root of this thing we are talking about competition and women competing at a high level, that is the part that bothers me the most. And then there's 28 years of this league

being established, and in the last five the needle has moved, the charter thing has been in motion. You got to shout out Mark Davis, the Vegas owner Joe and Clara Sy the Liberty owners like people that have really helped to put

the pressure on these women receiving professional level treatment has Kalen expedited the process yes but there's also been

a groundwork that has been laid and so I just encourage all the new folks like you Ocho come on in come on in and watch before you go

come one come all grab your notebook take some notes before you start bumping them gums that's all I ask like you, Ocho. Come on in. Come on in and watch. Come one, come all. Grab your nose, but take some notes before you start bumping them gums. That's all I ask. Let me ask, because when I look at Kaitlyn Clark and people look at her and they're like, well, what about all that trash talking she was doing

in college? What about all the stuff that she was shoving people down in college? They saw that, and so now her talking trash in college might intimidate some folks. You come to the W. These are grown women. These women got kids. These women 25, they 28, they 30 years of age.

They don't care. And like I said, Monica, you got the name. If I tear you up on the court right they're gonna be talking about me you know what i think there's a there's a learning curve as a rookie my rookie year i was talking trash in college my rookie year in the nfl but i ain't say nothing i i didn't say nothing i didn't even talk to the media until i I got acclimated to the game, I understood the game, and the game started to slow down for me. So when year two came,

and I started talking, once I figured it out, it was a wrap. I'm sure at some point, Angel Reese already talking. Sister, she letting it fly. As soon as Kaitlyn Clark gets acclimated to the game, and it starts to slow down for her and she

picks it up, I guarantee you she's going to be back to her talking ways, I'm sure, based on what we saw at Iowa. I think, though, I think, Ojo, you're spot on, right? But I think part of what has made this such a hot topic

is that when a GOAT like Cheryl Stoops, who was a multi-time gold medalist, a four-time WNBA champ and umpteen time WNBA all-star, the woman to have her first, the first woman to have a signature shoe for Nike. When she said there was a curve, it was,

she was hating when Diana Taurasi said, there's a curve at the women's final four, she was hating. And I think for the new fans, I get it. Y'all rolling with y'all girl. You protected, whatever, whatever. But that wasn't hate. That was people that have been here and watched this league. Those were truths. And that is okay.

That's part of all of our journeys. You're going to hit a curve at some point. Especially for a guard. See, people look at I say, bro, y'all expecting her to be Candice Parker when she comes out as rookie of the year and MVP. Candace is 6'4". Kaitlyn Clark might be, what, six foot, Monica?

So you're asking a guard to do something that a dominant big in college. Hey, Candace Parker was legit. She could rebound, got you double-digit rebounds. She was a 19-10. She was a defensive player of the year. She was tremendous. And I think everybody you look at, uh,

Caitlin, she led the nation in scoring at about 32 points a game, led the nation of us in a sense. So automatically people automatically think, well, she's going to come in and do an NBA. Then women will not let that happen. You play harder against someone.

It's just nature because you know, they can embarrass you. You're not going to embarrass me. You're not going to have me on sports center especially now and i know uh esp is really covering the wmba oh you i'm nothing to be your highlight package it ain't gonna happen monica i'm sorry it's not i do when this conversation come back up man i'm not around i just want you to keep that same energy because that's all it is and to me that is beautiful that is the point of competition and it should be celebrated. Yeah.

Angel Reese had some comments today. Monica, take a listen to the sound of what Angel Reese had to say today. It all started from the national championship game. And I've been dealing with this for two years now. And understanding like, yeah, negative things have probably been said about me. But honestly, I'll take that because look where women's basketball is people are talking about women's basketball but you never would think that we talk about women's basketball people are pulling up to games we got celebrities coming to games sold out

arenas like just because of one single game and just looking at that like I'll take that role I'll take the bad guy role and I'll continue to take that on and be that for my teammates and if I want to be that and I know I'll go down in history I'll look back in 20 years and be like, yeah, the reason why we're watching women's basketball is not just because of one person. It's because of me too, and I want y'all to realize that. A lot of people have done so much for this game, and Kennedy

has been here before, obviously, but there are so many great players in this league that have deserved this for a really, really long time, and luckily it's coming now. Yeah. Talk your track. What you talk about, man? You watching the game because of me. And she ain't lying because I'm one of them.

What you talk about? Thoughts on her comments, Monica. I love it. I love it. And this is where we talk about you're not going to turn into somebody different overnight. Angel Reese has never shied away from the mic. She's willing to wear that villain label however unfair it may be but she gets it in the macro and what i love about angel even when she announced she was going pro

and vogue she speaks about the macro and she does that deliberately that is not just oh i'm gonna just throw in the women that have come before me right and i think that is important and what makes and what is endearing about watching her. But she's absolutely right. The girl, I'm sorry I don't know her name, but the girl streamed a Sky's preseason game on her phone, y'all, and had umpteen tens

of thousands of viewers that were watching. Wasn't it like over a million? It got over a million. You know what I mean? So there is a demand. She absolutely has been a part of creating that demand. She's a huge part of this rookie class as well.

Mm-hmm. Well, we can't let Pat McAfee, I guess he watched us this morning. Really? He had some coffee. He probably had an energy drink. Do we have his sound? We can't play his sound.

What? Whoo, sound. Monica, I know you've heard it by now. I think Pat got a little bit too amped. He forgot, like, man, this live. Normally, we have a conversation like this, Monica. You and I, you and your girls, off air. But we got a microphone

and we got a camera with a red dot going. What did you think when you heard PMAC start going? So I didn't actually watch it, but I read the transcript and all the articles that came down. Honestly, y'all, my first thought was, okay, here we go with this not being about race. I'm a person who is white, right?

And again, this is where I say, and I'm speaking honestly, clearly, concisely. This is where I say multiple things can be true, right? I wonder what this would look like if Kaylin Clark was black. She's proud of who she is. That's fantastic. Right. But this is where all the layers of this conversation come in. Right. The WNBA is a predominantly black women's league. Correct. There it's also largely a queer league. Right. And gender, sexuality, race. It's hard to parse this out of that conversation, at least for me as a woman, because I can't walk away from any part of who I am,

right? And so, his point about the other white chicks in the league that have been buckets, sure, Stewie's the MVP. He has won multiple championships with the Las Vegas Aces. DT, obviously, we had a conversation about her as a GOAT, right? But to act

as if there is no space to sit back and just wonder, again, all I'm asking for folks that have just joined is to open your mind. Ultimately, you may disagree and that's fine, but you should be able to hold space to evaluate all the pieces that seem to be at play. Now, if you decide to pick up three instead of six, that's on you, but you got to be able to sit back and acknowledge all the pieces at play. Now, if you decide to pick up three instead of six, that's on you. But you got to be able to step back and acknowledge all the pieces at play. Just out of respect for humanity at large,

I would say. Monica, you said something very interesting and you would know better than I, but I was thinking this, but I never said it. But since you brought it up, let's go here. How much do you think

predominantly Black queer helps or hurt the WNBA? That's a loaded question, Shannon. I think the W in the last few years has done a great job of leaning into who they are. They are not hiding who these women are. These women are not hiding who they are. One thing about this rookie class has been their willingness to share their lives. But I had a chance to catch a great documentary this summer courtesy of the WNBA PA.

And I'm blanking on the name of the documentary and I apologize, but it highlighted Jonquil Jones, Breanna Stewart, and Nneka Agumake, right? And as veterans in this league,

JJ's been an MVP. Nneka Agumake has won a title and been an MVP. Stewie, obviously, has been a multi-time MVP and won championships. As veterans, they talked very honestly about opening up their lives, right?

Because that was a big choice for them. And one of the commentators, Lindsay Gibbs, in that piece talked about being able to enjoy this league and celebrate these women even more when you get to know them, right? And I think that star power of this rookie class growing up with social media, Kayla has two million, Angel has three million. Right. They've already been used to sharing their lives. Right. And so I think the W has leaned in

on who they are. But as new audiences are getting to know these women, hopefully they find a way to strike a chord with them beyond just being basketball players and so candidly i'm not 100 sure what happens in marketing meetings when you begin to look at who you want to partner up with with the wba because like we started this conversation gender race and sexuality are parts of conversations that you just cannot escape okay the documentary you're talking about is called shattered glass a wmba pa story thank you i'm glad you had this conversation because at the end of the day you like people like well go market go market but at certain times you know certain certain demographics you're trying to market too because like when we go out okay we have to pitch okay who are you trying to who are you trying to reach we we club shea shea nightcap we might not be able to reach who an advertiser or a sponsor

try to reach so it doesn't make sense for them to give us money if the people that they're trying to reach are not watching nightcap not watching club shea shea right and so what you're saying monica's like okay we got to appeal to the people that you're trying to reach. But to say that gay and queer people don't buy health and don't buy auto insurance, it's just not true. To say they don't go grocery shopping or buy cars, it's just not true. So they are people. They might have chosen an alternative life that's outside of the norm, whatever norm is. There is a new definition of norm now.

But I believe that you can reach people because everybody that watches television, they're a consumer. You buy something, whether it's food, whether it's auto insurance, whether it's whatever the clothing, whatever the case may be, you'll purchase something. with this, whatever the clothing, whatever the case may be, you'll purchase something. And when it comes to marketing and branding and WNBA and those that are queer are part of that community in general, that community always sticks together and support each other. So the marketing on that end should be easy anyway. It's common sense, especially when it comes to the higher ups and the execs that are sitting in positions of power. That's a no brainer as far as when it comes to marketing and branding and doing it that way now if they if they want some ideas you know from the true number one

marketing and branding himself i can i can guide them in which way to go and know how to do it that's what i did you might need to get some boardroom tables oh joe monica let me ask you this because you know a lot of times black we used to have like who was in that room? Why are you talking trying to market the blacks and there's no blacks in the commercial?

Would it help if there were queer gay in the rooms that could say hey guys they have purchasing power. I don't know I'm in California.

Man, they shut down we hope hope gay pride is a big thing. So somebody drinking beers, buying cocktails and buying clothes. I'm just saying somebody doing that. And gosh, oh man, I should have pulled up all my research because there was a wonderful article done, I want to say about two seasons ago, that looked at what demographic still, in terms of representing the WNBA, still got the lion's share of marketing opportunities. And it was largely straight white women. Now, in two years, I do believe that there have been improvements made in that area, right? And like I said, the WNBA has leaned into who they are. These women are leaning into who they are. There's a number of queer athletes out of W that I can think of that have had commercials

and are currently in commercials that are still airing. And it's beautiful to see. And so I do think that things are changing. But just like in society, y'all, as painful as it is, right? When we start having conversations about this societal totem pole,

people, especially women, that sit at identities, shout out to Dr. Alfie, my girl, that have intersectional identities, often don't have privilege. And so they're minimalized a little bit. Or not a little bit. They become minimalized. And so, again, that's a whole nother loaded conversation. And I'm not trying to tell anybody that they can't be a fan of this player or that player but as you join this wmba fanfare welcome it's room for everybody there have been 28 years of groundwork and there have been numbers of opportunities of research right like and then when you look at the demographics of

this league like just keep your mind open to what is the reality of someone else's experience that may not look like you. That's the part that's frustrating to me in this conversation, y'all. One, to hear ex-athletes say, oh, just let her do whatever. And two, folks that aren't taking the time to just do a little bit of digging

about what the WNBA has been, how powerful these women have used their voices, what they stand for, because it's beautiful. It is. And thank you for opening up and sharing that with us. I mean, you know,

you being around the game, you playing the game, you being a woman yourself, you're better to speak to this in Ocho than I, because you're in that situation. There's no better person to speak to about a woman

than a woman. And so sometimes, you know, as men, we try to sit back and try to, I don't know what it's like to have a baby. Never had one. I don't want them kind of problem. So I like women when women talk about women issues. Yeah, I can have an opinion, but I'm just speaking at it from a man's point of view. And sometimes we only see things through the prism in which we are.

You know, if I'm looking from a mountaintop, I don't know what it's like in the valley because I'm on top of the mountain looking out. You being a woman playing basketball, playing in the WNBA, who better to speak to issues like this than a person like yourself? But how often do, how often when things like this, do the WNBA, the PA, do they have you speak to the women that's coming into it? How many times do you go out and speak to women's group? Being who you are, being the platform that you do have, are you given those opportunities to speak up for women?

So I was going to let you rock with this, but I got to check you one thing on my resume. I decided that I was done after college and wasn't about to dive into W. So I did not play in the W. But also, I'm going to have to get with the Chad Ocho Cinco agency to get me some more speaking engagements. Whatever you need. Listen, listen, I have a marketing firm,

a branding firm. So anything you need, just holler at me. I can get the ball rolling. I got you. All jokes aside, I have had the opportunity to speak not just to women's teams, but like last year,

I had a chance to talk, to rap with the Los Angeles Rams, right? And just offering a different perspective as a member of the media. I do know that our friends and colleagues, the Chyna Robertson and Nneka Ogunke led a great media preparation session for the rookies coming in this season.

And so the W and the PA are about giving their players resources as are the NBA. Right. And so the league is just continuing to grow. And when you talk about a male counterpart, it has a 50 year headstart. Right. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL daily with Greg Rosenthal five days a week. You'll get all the latest news, previews, recaps, and analysis delivered straight to your podcast feed

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Monica, I think the thing is, a lot of times, and people's like, well, I think the thing what really got it trending at the end is that, well, you said, Stephen A.,

you had this platform and you're doing it now, but you probably should have done this a lot sooner. Me, I'm going to address that. But I have Club Shea Shea. And people are like, well, why do you have more women? I've reached out to women that play or played in the WNBA. And I get no returns. I've had one lady.

She's not a professional basketball player two days before. She's like, I'm gonna have to reschedule. And now my team can't get ahold of her. So I've tried to, to give women cause I, Hey, I got a nice size platform.

So I want to give you an opportunity to share, tell whatever story that you want to tell. You want to talk about your upbringing. You want to talk about your life as a professional athlete, you as an entertainer or a celeb, have at it. But it's not as easy as you think, Monica, because a lot of times

women say no. I'm about to stop you right now. I believe you, but I'm going to also say this, because I had to think twice before I said yes, because I done seen some nightcap clips, okay? You have to ask yourself, is this a safe space, right? And so I believe when you say

you want to have that conversation, right? But I think because of the opportunities to brand for women are a little bit, hold on, let me get my words right. The opportunities for women to build their brands are so heavily scrutinized, right? That you probably

think more dutifully before you say yes to an opportunity depending on how it fits and if you feel that that space is safe. So, I don't know why people are saying

yes or no to you, but honestly, like, if we didn't have this thing this morning, like, I would not have thought of myself as a nightcap guest just based on the clips that I've seen. And I've met you in person.

I've obviously met you in person. I think y'all are great guys. But I'm not going to tell y'all what goes down in my bedroom. Like, right. And so you do just wonder if spaces are safe. And so as you continue to grow your platform, I would encourage you maybe to offer the topics in advance. And you may have done this already. Yeah.

Right. I always ask any guests, is there anything that you're uncomfortable with? I ask a question. You can you can also say, well, you know, that question that you asked me earlier, I talked about. Can you not air that? Boom. We take it out. Yeah.

Because I want you to be most of the time when people come, they're speaking their truth. Now, if I ask you a question and you tell me what went down in your bedroom, how am I being messy? You could have said, now you know I ain't going to answer that. Now, I am sad, but I don't know if that's my little pressure

to keep up with the Joneses. I don't know if I can speak to people now. I know y'all can get a little wild on here. Yo, yeah, we get, but see, that's the thing. They come for the sports, they stay for the stories. So, you know,

it's kind of like Monica, again, let's just say for the sake of argument, I let you into the arena for free, but I charge you to get out. You see what I'm saying? That's what I did. Now, listen,

all jokes aside, I do want to address the end of that clip. I genuinely was surprised by the reaction. And I did not intend to make it personal. But when I look at Stephen A and my relationship with Stephen A, he's a head honcho at ESPN as far as I'm concerned. And I have been in this women's basketball space for so long and have been privy to many a conversation pushing and pitching and asking for space so as from where i sit if sa says let's talk about it it's going

to be discussed right right he and i have had a conversation tonight okay cool there are things that played that maybe i did not consider when i made that statement but what i do stand by is that the way that the wmba is being covered in the last, this season just started in May, this particular season is at a different fervor and tenor than it was three years ago. Now, whatever factors go into that, be that as it may. But three years ago, we were not having these conversations about the WNBA as we are now. And that is just a fact. Yeah, well, we weren't having this conversation three months ago.

But you said, Monica, it's never too late to do the right thing. Absolutely. And I think that some people will be like, oh, nobody was talking about it. Like you, I heard you at the end of that show. You lucky Molly had to go to break. You talking about something. Monica, you proving his point because nobody was talking about Kayla Clark after three years.

I heard your old Southern sass back there. Now, this is where we have to really argue and tussle with this idea of cart before the horse or horse before the cart, right? And I know we don't have TV work, Shannon. Just like you said, Ocho, you can talk about the Cowboys,

you can talk about the Lakers. Like there are these things that hit. I understand the idea that the WNBA may not have been drawing the same numbers that it is now three years ago. But again, two things can be true. That doesn't necessarily mean that those women, prior to the arrival of this rookie class,

were still not worthy of coverage. Right. Let's transition. The NBA Finals. You got the Dallas Mavericks, Luka, Kyrie, Boston Celtics, JT, JB. Who you like and what matchup are you looking most forward to? I don't know who I like yet, y'all. I think we're going to get seven. Seven and five really great games. Might be a couple duds in there. But I think we are really in for it in this series. I think one of the matchups that intrigues me most is obviously what is Kristaps Porzingis going to look like?

And I think of a Derek Lively probably before I think of Daniel Gafford, but either one of them in terms of Kristaps Porzingis' ability to pull them away from the paint as their run protectors, right? And then, okay, so after that, then I immediately go to clutch. And Luka and Kyrie, oh, baby, they light it up when it's clutch time.

Yeah, they do. Right? Yeah. Now, we obviously had the Jalen Brown three in the Indiana series. That was big time. I can't, I'm pretty sure we have. The game four, they were down with like eight, with like two minutes to go, two and a half minutes to go.

Right? And so I cannot say, and I should have pulled up the clutch numbers before we got on here, but I cannot say that I don't trust Boston in the clutch. But recent history tells me that Luke and Kyrie are about the clutch, right? Right.

I'm going to stay Boston for now because that's where I've been all season long. And I do think that they have a unique ability to defend and make life a little bit more difficult for those guys. But I could be so wrong and I just think we are in for a really great series. Do you think it's a narrative

where people out there trying to put the media, you and I both in the media, I don't think we've done it, but maybe I'm wrong, that we try to put JT and JBb try to pit them against each other i think when something doesn't work the media's job is to pick it apart okay and i think we all would agree no it feels like they're a little bit late to the party in terms of winning a championship yeah right like they were the better team in 2022 when Stephanie got his finals MVP. Right.

And so I think when expectations are unmet, the human nature is, well, what happened? Why? Right. And those two being your stars are the easiest target. Right. Because I think, and I've said this, I believe, and I could be wrong. You correct me because you watch basketball as much as I do, if not more. I believe JT is the better player.

I believe Jalen Brown has been the better player in the playoffs. When you look at the entirety of the playoffs, if you look, and I know JT averaged more in the finals, in the Eastern Conference finals, but I thought Jalen Brown played better. The big shot notwithstanding, you look at the efficiency in which he played with. I said, that's why I thought he was deserving of the Larry Bird trophy,

which goes to the MVP of the Eastern Conference final. What do you say? I think that's fair. I do think, and again, like, I'm not naive. I know sports conversations don't have nuance, which is again why we started this podcast. Thank you for giving me the space to have nuance because if ever there was a conversation to have

a little bit of nuance, it's this WNBA conversation. But when it comes to the Celtics, I think we got to stop moving the goalposts, right? Jalen Brown earned conference finals MVP he did Boston, Brad Stevens and company they put together a team

the reason in my mind why Jason Tatum was less discussed in MVP and all of that stuff is because it was a team our colleague Brian Winters has talked about how much of the load one has to bear.

And because Boston has a team, it looks like Jason Tatum has had to bear a little bit less. So for me, I do think the Celtics have to get it done. I think Jason Tatum is still young in his career. He's an excellent ball player. I do not think he has to win finals MVP. I think that is a goalpost that continues to move because I'm not going to penalize him if

the guys around him that were brought to the organization so they could finally win a title help to get it done. But you know that happens. You know that happens. We saw it with Steph. We saw it with Kobe. You know that happens, Monica, when a supposed

the best player and he doesn't win that finals mvp they're like the only guy and this was before your time that i don't remember getting criticized for being the best player and not winning finals mvp was larry bird that's way before my time tell me no cornbread maxwell won it in eight when they beat the six when they beat the rocket and he had eight points the last two games, if I'm not mistaken. Cornbread Maxwell was finals MVP. But he was the rookie of the year, and he had like 33 votes.

The Magic got three. But, you know, I agree with you. I believe they need to win. If they don't win and he plays like he did against Golden State, Monica, you know it's going to be a bloodbath. You know that. Well, it's going to be a bloodbath anyway You know that. Well, it's going to be a bloodbath anyway, because I already told you Mavs in seven.

Ooh, I already told you. This thing is close. Listen, there's no way to stop Luka and Kyrie. And it just, it is what it is. They have the clutch gene. If the Celtics have too many off nights shooting three and they're not efficient from the field, it's going to be a long series.

I really want to believe that they're not going to trip over the three-point line in that way. Like, there's enough basketball prowess that they would not be lulled to their own demise by shooting three. But that's who they are, Monica. You know that's who they are. They take the most. They make the most. Oh, I just really want to believe, though, y'all. I just want to believe.

Look, I love what I get to do for a living, but this kind of stuff is actually very agonizing, right? Because you got one fan base that's going to hate you, one fan base that's going to love you. But, like, I can see it go either way, y'all. I think we are in for a good place here. So can I. Let me ask you a question.

Who do you think they start out on Luka? Because I think Holiday and Derek White might be too small. You think they start go Jalen Brown, knowing that he's going to have to give up something offensive because Luka is a monster on the offensive end. So to try to neutralize some of what he does, you might have to give up some of the offensive load. And that's why JT and Holiday and Derek White might need to be

really big because if JB starts out on Luka he's going to have his hands full well here's the thing Luka kept getting loose versus the Wolves when them screens came and the switches came so it didn't really matter who started primarily I think

Drew Holiday is such a versatile defender that I don't know if they start him on Luka primarily. I think Drew Holiday is such a versatile defender that I don't know if they start him on Luka. He was my first thought because I think Drew's size is underrated. His strength is underrated. As a defender, the whole bit.

Because again, this thing is going to be about making it as difficult as possible. And so if you are playing ahead and thinking that the screen action is going to come, especially if they end up doing the Luka Kyrie guard-to-guard thing, it don difficult as possible. And so if you are playing ahead and thinking that the screen action is going to, if the screening action is going to come, especially if they end up doing the Luka Kyrie guard to guard thing, like it don't really matter. You know what I mean?

My first thought is still going to be Drew. But I think at points we will see Drew, Derek, Jason and Jalen. I think they will all get a piece at some point. And to me, that might be the X factor of what the Celtics have

in terms of four guys that can make it difficult. They don't terms of four guys that can make it difficult. They don't know about stop, but can make it difficult. Luka is a guy that he also, he'll go away from the screen. The Mavericks do a very good thing. They like to set the screen because they know if you put the screen in either corner, they can trap it. They can blitz it.

They do a great job of setting the screens in the middle of the floor, which makes it a lot more difficult for you to blitz it or to trap that when Luka or Kyrie have the ball. So what do you think is going to happen when they try to run the slip? Because now Lively or Derek Gafford, they slide out,

he passed them the ball, and boom. This is where Porzingis becomes a big deal, because his length can at least disrupt long enough to, you know, sometimes they say, hold it for a second, right big deal because his length can at least disrupt long enough to, you know, sometimes they say, hold it for a second, right? Like his length can disrupt long enough that either of those guys got to look to survey

before they make a pass and they certainly got to pay attention if they make a play on the rim. But you're absolutely right in terms of the corners. They put Kyrie in the corner and Luka on one side. Like the space is just, it's just too much room. Like it's just too much room. So I'm excited though.

I just think what game, game one probably will look different from game two. And then, you know, all the adjustments. Like Jason Kidd has been phenomenal. Joe Mazzulla has been great for this group. Like, I cannot wait to see all the adjustments and the wrinkles. Because, you know, we think we know what happened. I'm sure they got some stuff up

they sleeve now. They do. But eventually, you know one thing, Monica, they got some stuff up their sleeve now they do, they do, but eventually you know one thing Monica, you're going to beat me with what I do best, I'm not I'm going to give you a wrinkle here and a wrinkle there, but I've got to get back to what got me here, this is the lady that brought me to the party, I know there's some other pretty ladies out there, but

I got to dance with what got me here Monica at the end of the day your analogies is why women don't want to be coming on Nightcap. Monica, we got a few more questions, then we'll get you out of here. Kyrie reflected on his self-tenure earlier today. Let's take a listen to what Kyrie had to say. You know, last time at Boston, I don't think that was the best. Not this regular season, but when we played in the playoffs

and everyone saw me flip off the birds and kind of lose my shit a little bit, that wasn't a great reflection of who I am, how I like to compete on a high level. Um, you know, it wasn't a great reflection on my end towards the next generation on what it means to control your emotions in that type of environment, no matter what people are yelling at you. You know, I'm doing for these moments to be able to handle circumstances like that. And I've been able to grow since then. So, of course, it's going to be a hectic environment, but I'm looking forward to it. And I see it as a healthy relationship to have with the fans. You know, I almost think about Gladiator just when the crowd over, you know, it's good to hear the TD Garden uh when you're playing well they still respect great basketball so regardless of um you know the attention that's

being paid to what it's going to be like on my end i have a group to lead you like kairi's growth maturity listen shout out to insecure and i can't think of the actress's name i played kelly but that's growth okay we got the growth. I love it. And look, y'all, you had some moments with the media, right? I don't know what it is. Some good ones. I think, again,

and this is one thing that I try, I hope is attached to me in this space. I try to come at this thing not forgetting the humanity of these elite athletes. Just because y'all can do and have done things that most of us can only hope and dream about, it doesn't mean that you are also not human people with emotions and feelings and past and dreams to grow in, right? And so for me, that is a fantastic demonstration of growth.

But more than that press conference, what we saw in the last series, what we've seen the Mavs be able to do to get to the finals, it's not just talk with Kyrie, there's real growth there. Now, I will say somebody sent me a hilarious screenshot that was like, not the media talking about Kyrie like he wasn't an asshole for the last five years. Okay.

There's a dichotomy there, but we're going to lean in. We're going to lean into this growth. And so I think as much as he's grown as an athlete, he's also grown as a man. Yes. Kids, marriage. Yeah.

Natasha Rothwell is the actress you're talking about. Growth. She's hysterical. She should get a spinoff, please, Issa Rae. Can we just get a Kelly spinoff? Thank you. Which duo would you rather have in this series? Thank you. Which duo, UT, would you rather have in this series? Luka, Kyrie,

JT, JB? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Someone whose basketball ethos tends to lean toward the team that can defend better, the duo in this conversation that has a little bit more two-way

is the Celtics duo. All right. We're going to see how good that defensive prowess turns out when the man is sweet. You ain't lying, no joke. We're going to find out.

And we're going to get you out of here on this one, Monica. Whose legacy do you think will be more impacted by this outcome? The Jordan brand, because Jason Tatum is a Jordan athlete. And Luka Tocic is a Jordan athlete.

Hey, this is going to be big for Kyrie's own brand, Anta. It is. Can you imagine Kyrie wins his second title, especially as you said, what he's gone through since he last played with LeBron, 2017, so 18, 19 21 22 and you know half of 23 he was there and not and and and to see what he's become as you as we talked about the maturity the growth the maturation marriage kids he's he's at peace yeah that's the thing. Sometimes we fight

demons that are not even there. Man, I'm a Maryland girl. I don't know if y'all said this down in the South, but my mom and I, I'm an Aislingham. Just keep on living. Just keep on living. And you, like, if you keep on living, you are going to be forced to grow. Yes. Yes.

So, you know what, Monica? Thank you so much for joining us tonight I wanted to have this conversation I wanted you to give you an opportunity and a space to have a nuanced

conversation where we're not up against the clock that we don't have to get to a commercial we don't have to get to the top of the hour we don't have to do anything

we just had a 55 minute 56 minute conversation and I hope our viewing and listening audience enjoyed it. Thank you for coming on. You're welcome back anytime.

You know, well, you know what I'm trying to do. You know what I'm trying to do. So, we're going to keep that between you and the fifth post. Yeah, I got a little text. Okay. Listen,

I, Shannon, I'm going back and forth today. I really appreciate this. I think the internet went ablaze and truly that was not my intention. And I walked away from our conversation not thinking that I had said anything earth shattering. It was just if you take a step back and look at the big picture. You know what I mean? Yes.

Stephen A is our boy. We all good. Oh, that's my day. And cheers to more Chris basketball coverage like let's get it he definitely getting a watch from me for Christmas where my watch at he can go buy a watch I'm not on the contract yet

I need the watch oh well I got that new updated Apple watch you want it wow I mean for the free I don't turn down quality that's still quality Monica thank you so much I really really really appreciate that You want it? Wow. I mean, for the free, I don't turn down quality. That's still quality. Oh, man. Monica, thank you so much.

I really, really, really appreciate that. Thank you for joining us. We know it's probably past your bed. It's 11 o'clock on the East Coast time. You're probably normally in the bed, so I'm not going to keep you Ocho Nine Nightcaps. I'm not going to keep you any further from your fiance. Get to him and turn this camera off.

Thank you, Monica. Thank you, guys. Talk to y'all further from your fiance. Get to him and turn this camera off. Thank you, Monica. Thank you, guys. Talk to y'all later. The Volume. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news and the best analysis delivered by the time you get your coffee.

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