Club Shay Shay - Nightcap - Hour 1: OKC v Warriors, Lakers beat Spurs, Stephon Marbury, Boogie on Zion, BJ Armstrong

Episode Date: November 28, 2024

Shannon Sharpe and Chad “Ochocinco” Johnson react to LeBron James and the Los Angeles Lakers defeating the San Antonio Spurs 119-101. Unc criticizes Victor Wembanyama's inability to affect the game from the post. Later, they react to Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and the Oklahoma City Thunder defeating Draymond Green and the Golden State Warriors 105-101 and much more!.03:13 - Show Start03:30 - Intro05:21 - OKC v Warriors13:10 - Lakers beat Spurs23:41 - Pat Riley on dynasty teams33:26 - Stephon Marbury40:38 - Ant had a lot to say47:22 - Boogie on Zion58:15 - BJ Armstrong(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.)#Volume #ClubSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey there, it's Michael Lewis, author of Going Infinite, Moneyball, The Blind Side, and Liars Poker. On the latest season of my podcast, Against the Rules, I'm exploring what it means to be a sports fan in America and what the rise of sports betting is doing to our teams, our states, and ourselves. Join me and listen to Against the Rules on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search Against the Rules. Listen to Against the getting in on the action at DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA. All 30 teams split into six

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Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. See dkng.com slash promos for deposit, wagering, and eligibility restrictions, terms, and responsible gaming resources. That guy's Liberty City's own bingo ring of fame. Autoread the pro bowl of the all pro that's Chad Ocho Cinco Johnson. Just call him Ocho guys. The OKC Thunder took down the Golden State Warriors minus Steph Curry 105 to 101 as OKC sits firmly atop the NBA Western Conference with a 14 and full record. Shaye Gilders Alexander was sensational again.

35 points, nine rebounds, five assists a block. Wow. He's good as advertised. He's even better than advertised. Haven't seen him play up close and personal. Thank you guys for joining us. Do me a favor. Make sure you hit that subscribe button.

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We had our newest releases that dropped last month and we have a Black Friday sale that just launched. Items up to 50% off, shirts are $20 off, hoodies are $50 off. All tees, hoodies are back in stock nightcap club. Shae Shae and 84 Everything is in stock. We've also had some stocking stuffers, which are beanies and gozi Quantities are limited. So please make sure you grab yours while supplies last Oh Joe as I mentioned Okay, see took down the Golden State Warriors, minus Steph Curry, 105 to 101, Shea Gilder, 35 points,

nine rebounds, five assists, two blocks. Isaiah Hardenstein, 13 points, 14 rebounds, three assists, four blocks. He was sensational. And that's what they need, a big body, especially with Chet being out. But I like this team. They're really good They're very young all drafted players with exception of Lou Dore

I think Lou Dore was that a Houston at first, but you know, they got Hardenstein They signed Hardenstein be a free agency. They made the trade for our The guy was at a Caruso. He was at Lakers then went to Chicago. He's back So they have two guys on the wings that are defensive presence. Uh, the Williams, uh, Jalen Williams, he can flat out shoot it. I'd say a joke and shoot the three, but this, everything is centered around Shea Gilder's and he was sensational again tonight. Uh, boy, I know the Clippers are kicking themselves in the butt

because they traded him. Yeah. They traded him, Golanari and a lot of unprotected lottery picks. And they got a lot of pick swaps and they traded him to get Paul George. Yeah. And they didn't win a championship and Kawhi's been injured. And so, uh, ain't no way to round it. Okay.

See one, but the thing is, it's one thing, Ocho, to have draft picks, but what are you going to do with them? Yeah. If you look at the way they've drafted, they've hit, and this is a young team and they got some veteran presence. I love the heart and steel edition. I love, uh, the Caruso edition. It's going to be very interesting, um, to see how this thing plays out. Um, but I'm liking what I'm seeing for the, seeing for the Thunder. What did you like about last night?

Tonight, I know they didn't have Golden State, didn't have Steph. They have Steph, yeah. I mean, listen, it was a good game. I mean, SGA is as you just said, as advertised, he isn't just that. His last last five to eight games, he's aver 30 goddamn 30 points a game. Out of the last five to eight games, he's averged 30, goddamn 30 points a game. A nice game. I think if the Warriors had a second score out there, obviously with Steph being out,

the game, they might've had a chance to win the game. I think it's a bad win for OKC. Excuse me for saying this, but there's no reason that the game should have been this close without Steph playing. Other than that, I mean, it was a good game, but both teams play good. It's always a dog fight. Anytime the goddamn thunder and warriors meet up.

Yeah. Oh, it's a, it's a game of runs. And so with the way the team can shoot the three ball, there's really no lead safe. Uh, there were times, I mean, you want to watch the NBA when the three wasn't as prevalent as it is in teams could, could come back from a 20 points deficit. But if you get down by 20 points in the first quarter, the first half, that ain't nothing got you. You have a team come down and hit a couple of threes.

You turn it over a couple of times and a 20 point lead all of a sudden is eight with under two minutes and teams can go on runs. We've seen teams go and run 20, oh,, 25 to two runs, 30 to eight runs. And the next thing you know, you were down by 20, all of a sudden you're up two to four. And so I'm really not surprised. Teams going to play harder. And the one thing about Golden State, you can say they're going to play hard. Draymond was there.

He made some, you know, he had a block skill. He did his thing. He didn't shoot the three ball well, but I liked the confidence that he's showing by taking that shot because in years past, he missed a couple of them. He's like, nah, I can't shoot this. But he's still shooting even without hesitation,

although he was two of eight tonight. I mean, they were 16 of 50. They got up 53. Buddy Hill did what Buddy Hill does. He comes off the bench, lightened it up. He had 17. But this game was about SGA. They don't really have anybody. Andrew Wiggins tried his hand.

Kaminka tried his hand. Podzinski tried his hand, but that didn't work. I mean, look, what you wouldn't do. I mean, the guy's an all star for a reason. He's an all NBA player for a reason. You just want to try to neutralize him somewhat. Oh, Joe, you're not going to stop it, but just keep him from getting his average. You know, he averaged 30 last year, so we're not surprised that he's scoring

30 now, but if you're going to have a chance to beat this team, you're going to have to keep him under that. Cause if you let him get, cause if you let him get his numbers, what have you actually done? Nothing. Nothing. But that's the funny thing about it. He can score from anywhere on the field,

anywhere on the court. He can score from anywhere. Ice a ball, he'll give you what you want. Off the pick, he'll give you what you want. He can pull up. Yeah. Off the guard. He give you what you want. He can pull up. Yeah. I mean, he do every goddamn thing. So we even, even when you talk about neutralizing, there's really nothing you

could do, nothing you do except you want to make it one dimensional where if you going to lose, it ain't going to be from nobody else except the best player on that goddamn court. Yeah. You got to make it as difficult as you possibly can. I mean, you look, uh, he was three or 12, but he hit the most important one, which was a step back three. Um, so you, you got him shooting under 50%.

He was 13 to 28. So you made it, you, I mean, to get 35 points, he had to take 28 shots. So he wasn't as efficient. Um, he didn't shoot the free throw well. He was six to 10 from the free throw. He was three or 12 from the three. You made it difficult on him. But the thing about a great player, he might struggle, but when the, when it

matters the most, he's going to find a way to put the ball in the basket. And that's what, and that's what all the greats have been able to do. That's what makes them great. That's what sets them apart is that they can be having a crappy game, but in the blink of an eye, they can turn it on, Ocho and go get, and, and the final seven, eight minutes of ball game, go get your 10 to 12. And that's the mark of a great player. But I think Shea is probably only like 25,

24, 25 years of age. So he's only gonna get, he haven't even hit his prime yet. If they say to NBA, your prime is 27, 28, he ain't even close to that. He's not even close to that. This team can build. They got a bunch of young, young players that's only going to get better. They're together. I think they sincerely genuinely like each other because a lot of them is in

close proximity, same age. So they have a lot of the same, they probably like a lot of the same thing. Oh, Joe, you know, they like to scream, they play video games or whatever. Hell, 20, 25, 20, 25, 30 years. So yeah, so I don't, I don't, I have no idea what those guys that age do. Obviously, you know, they take the game, the game of basketball serious. But I like to see that. I like to see young teams because a lot of times when teams lose and they blame you, they break age.

Now these guys, even you look at Houston, you look at those young guys. I saw Jalen Green go off again. 41 points. They beat the Sixers in overtime. But I love what I'm seeing with OKC. I love what I'm seeing. Like I said, Steff was out. It'd been a very interesting game had he played. But OKC, congratulations. You game. Uh, I think they played the Lakers on Friday, um, in season tournament game. And this is going to have a huge repercussions because they might have the same record. They, uh, if the Lakers beat them, the Lakers will be three in one. But the problem that they have, they lost by so many point differential will come into play if you have the same record as someone else. Now, obviously if you went all your game, it's a moot point, you're undefeated.

But if you share the same record, now we got to bring point differential and the Lakers were plus 11. Well, they lost by 27 last night. So now their mind is 16. Dang. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's not, it's not looking, it's not looking good, uh, for the Lakers and, and, and season and defending their end season tournament. So, uh, Hey, we'll see how that we'll see how that goes. The Lakers beat the Spurs one 19 to one on one LeBron James had a triple double his sick triple double of the season. He had five all of last year, the Lakers against team with winning

records of four and six Lakers against team with losing records are seven and seven and one. Um, look, finally they played a third quarter. Oh Joe. Yeah. If you go back and look at the Lakers, look at the Lakers when they played, uh, ooh, that Denver, I think Denver outscored them like 75 to 21 in the second half. Yeah. Uh, they had a seven 75 to 21 in the second half. Yeah. Uh, they had a seven, eight point lead at the half.

And the next thing you know, they don't guard. So it's a layup line. They don't defend the three. If it's a shoot around three fast for the opposing team. And we saw the same thing happen last night. Guys driving all ain't nobody stopping. Nobody. Everybody point.

No, you get your ass over there and stop it. Yeah. Stop trying to take the easy man.. Hey, get, no bro, that's you. Cause every time I go get him, people gonna think that's my man, that I got beat. But I like the way they played tonight. They got really balanced scoring. They have seven guys in double figures. Anthony Davis, 19 quiet night.

He done took 14 shots, but he had 19 points, 14 rebounds, seven assists on the block. LeBron, as we mentioned, a triple double, 16 points, 11 rebounds, no 11 assists, 10 rebounds. Uh, Rui had 16, Austin Reeves had 13. The best move of the night. They re-inserted Dalton Connect into the starting lineup and they let Rui come off the bench.

No, Rui started. And that they let Rui come off the bench. You know, Rui started, and that means Cam Reddish came off the bench because they had made a switch. They took D-Lo out of the starting lineup, put Cam Reddish in. They lead Hachimura in and they take Cam out and they put Connet back in.

Connet is unbelievable because he can space the floor. You got 17 from D-Lo and you got 12 from Max Christie. And again, Gabe Gustin got great cardio in. Yeah. Hey, you know, the Lakers, the Lakers, AD, I'm going to just say with AD and LeBron, who was supposed to be the leaders and supposed to obviously be your best two players with them tonight, you know, both of them having a slow start. I mean, this was really good.

I'm not sure if JJ did this purposely with the lineup, but he had the lineup that he had tonight, they were able to the shoulder, the offensive load with the slow start from AD and LeBron. Well, AD didn't have that many shots. Normally AD was shooting like, he's been shooting very well. He's shooting pictures, 6% from the floor, but 14 shots, you're not going to do much. So I can live with that. LeBron had another, uh, uh, he didn't shoot the ball well tonight.

He was all two from three. The thing that I liked the most tells me what aggressive as he needed to be because he shot zero free throws. So that was, he tell it, that's telling me he wasn't as aggressive as he needed to be. I liked the Lakers. They were 10 for 10 from the free throw line. Now, had it been 10 for 10 from the free throw line the other night, they wouldn't have lost to be. I like the Lakers, they were 10 for 10 from the free throw line. Now had it been 10 for 10 from the free throw line

the other night, they wouldn't have lost to Orlando. But then the last 30 seconds, they missed four or six and got Wagner, hit a step back three and they ended up losing the game. But I like this, I like the balance scoring, Ocho. They shot 53% from the floor. They shot 38% from the three, 100% from the three throw line.

They're still turning the ball over a little bit too much, especially LeBron. LeBron right now is averaging probably about five turnovers a game. He's been real sloppy with the ball. In order for you to go far, you can't turn it over. You pay double for turnovers. Just like in football, little Joe, you turn the ball over, you're going to get runouts. So you think JD and Coach Stig would just line up this lineup with the way they perform, even though AD and LeBron had a slow start, hell, the goddamn, not only the bench, but the lineup that he did have in there, they showed the opposite load because AD and LeBron had such a slow start. They got off to a slow start. They started off San Antonio had a 9-2 lead. Yeah. Next thing you know, the Lakers take over the ball game and they don't look back from that point because you got connect. He's the best shooter.

He's a guy that could take the three. And when he takes the three, you expected to go in. He's, he's built up that kind of cache. The other guys are streaky three point shooters. Right. All the reason not a great three point shooter, but he's streaky. LeBron is streaky. Rue is streaky. Of all these guys, they don't have pure three point shooters like a Clay, like a Steph, like a Buddy Hill. But, and you know, guys like that, they shoot the three, but you have to put so much emphasis on

it because everybody's shooting it. That's why you see the Lakers. The Lakers got up 34 of them, even though you're like, hopefully we can make 13. Hopefully we can make 14. Right. Um, but I thought they did a great job. Uh, Wimby, uh, connect had 20 points. He had eight rebounds. He got some ups.

I, the thing that I love about him, he just doesn't settle. If you run him off the three point line, he'll put the ball on the floor, get to the mid range, he can finish all the way at the rim. He got nice ups. Um, LeBron is doing a great job of finding him, sneaking baseline. Um, LeBron is hitting for a couple of lobs this year. So I like him. He's more athletic than you think.

Right. Um, but he could really, he could really shoot the basketball on the spur side. You know, they got, they got some, you know, look, Wimby is the guy, but he didn't, he was nine or 20 tonight. He was two or nine from the three. I think sometimes bro, it's seven, four and a is the guy, but he was nine of 20 tonight. He was two or nine from the three. I think sometimes, bro, it's seven, four and a half. Man, get your ass down on the block. Start shooting all them threes.

Just because you can shoot them, just because you can make them, I don't think he should live by that. And I think the thing is, look, he's gonna have to put on some weight. All that damn cooking, all the Mexican food that they got down there, Soul Kitchen, the soul food they got in San Antonio.

Get you at a couple of these restaurants and get some biscuits and some tacos and burritos and some hog mals and all that, and put some weight on you. But nine or 20, oh, some churros. They're asking, they got churros. That's Ashley Neck of the Woods. So, but, oh, Charles Markley.

Okay. Yeah. Oh, I just think, look, I think he's going to be really good. I mean, a guy that high, that size, that height, he not size, that height can move, cause he can shoot the three. But sometimes, bro, he shot zero, at seven, four and a half, you shot zero free throws? Yeah. Zero. You know, you gotta, four and a half, you shot zero free throws? Yeah.

Zero. You know, you gotta understand too, what he's comfortable with, huh? You know, you might want him to play in the post with his back to the basket, but maybe tonight just wasn't it. Maybe tonight just wasn't it. For him, if his outside game mid-range three point

is where he feels comfortable and he's not hitting those shots, then that got a call got to come from inside the house on the bench. Hey, get your ass down in the post, run plays for him to be down in the post with his back against the basket. If that's the case, so from the outside looking in, hell, the coach need to say something. If anything, if you're missing your shots, would they tell a shooter, keep on shooting. Yeah. But I hear no shooter.

You don't think so? Hell no. No, that ain't what he is. Steph's a shooter. Dame Lillard, Clay Thompson, Buddy Hill. Those are shooters. Hold on, hold on, hold on. He, he listen, he's not that bad.

He's not that, that, that, that bad. And the mid-range on the three, but he just shoot both of them. People now, if you shoot 35%, they feel like I should have the green light to take 10. Okay, you make 35%, but you, you seven four, you get down on the block, you will get fired or you're going to shoot 55% from the floor.

I seen you guys. That's my thing. A carbon, it's not like, it's not like Steph can post up. That's not Steph's game. But Steph, if you run him off the three and he doesn't feel comfortable with the side step, he'll go all the way to the basket. Now he ain't going to play above the rim, but he got a nice float game. Trey Young, nice float game. Dane, nice float game.

Right. So you got to have a package. You got to do more than one thing in order to be really good or to be great in this league. Right. He's supposed to be great. He can rebound the basketball. He can block shots. I mean, there are a lot of times guys are very hesitant to shoot the ball when he's in the vicinity. They'll pass it back out because they don't want him to throw his, throw their shot into the fourth row. So they're very hesitant to try him at the rim. He also knows that I'm going to get dunked on some, but I'm going to get more than y'all get me.

And I'm going to make you guys hesitant. I'm not going to be hesitant to try you, but I'll make you hesitant to try me. Uh, that's what I just, that's, that's just me personally, Ocho. I just think to try me. That's what I just, that's just me personally, Ocho. I just think nine of 22 or nine and you don't have zero free throw attempts. So that tells me you spent too much time outside. That's what that tells me. But LeBron, like I said, LeBron was LeBron, a triple double, 16 points, 10 rebounds. He needed to bounce back because he didn't play, he didn't play well at all last night.

Hey there, it's Michael Lewis, author of Going Infinite, Moneyball, The Blind Side, 10 rebounds. He needed to bounce back because he didn't play well at all last night. The Expert. My next season is all about fans and what the rise of sports betting is doing to them, to the teams, and even to my family. I'm heading to Las Vegas and New Jersey and beyond to understand America's newest form of legalized gambling. Listen to Against the Rules on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Riley says he doesn't count the Spurge or the Warriors as an NBA dynasty. There've been three dynasties in my mind. Boston in the sixties, Showtime Lakers, Michael six, uh, and eight years was dynastic without a doubt. I don't know if there's one now. Showtime Lakers, Michael six and eight years was dynastic without a doubt. I don't know if there's one now.

Wait a minute. You don't count four and six years of the dynasty? I mean, I would think so. I mean, it depends on what Pat Riley's criteria is. Maybe his criteria is different than everybody else's. I mean, what could it possibly be? Oh Joe, in the sixties when the Celtics won, they had eight teams. than everybody else's. I mean, what could it possibly be? Okay. In the sixties when the Celtics won, they had eight teams. They had eight teams.

Right. Now, and from the beginning, they had seven hall of famers at one point in time, 11 of their 12, 13 players were hall of famers. Yeah. So I would like to think that you should win a win. You know, they won eight in a row. Right. Damn. But I mean, how, how is that not?

I mean, the Lakers won five and nine years, four and six years, not a dynasty. So if the Lakers, if Golden State won another, that means they've won five and nine years. So I'm just, I'm confused. Yeah. I mean, we got us, Ocho. Yeah. I'm an old I'm confused. Yeah. We got us Ocho. Yeah. I'm an old head too, Ocho. You know, look, I love, I love the era that I played in. I'm protective of it, but I also give credit where credit is due.

It's okay to give these new teams credit. That doesn't diminish what you did in the eighties. That doesn't diminish the Celtics in the sixties. That doesn't diminish Mike. They did that. But what, so if somebody don't win six, they can't be, so somebody don't win six in that year. Oh man, there ain't no dynasty.

Right. Come on, bro. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't make any sense. Obviously, obviously being an old head and having a difference of opinion when it comes to the criteria on what he feels the dynasty is,

there's a complete disconnect. Well, so it's the same from today's game as opposed to the game back in the day. Let me ask you this. So the Celtics say if you don't win eight in a row, you're not a dynasty. And that ain't happening. That's dead. That's not happening. The, to be able to keep a team's core players together long enough to even win eight is damn near impossible.

And again, in the game of basketball is different today. Anyway, it's completely different. So the chances of doing that it's also impossible. And, and I might be wrong. And if I'm wrong, please correct me. The game of basketball was a little different. I don't want to say easier. I'm not saying a little easier, but as opposed to the players today and how,

how much more skilled and more athletic they are, it's a little bit more different to win back to back. Like they would, as opposed to how they was doing back then. You didn't have centers that could shoot the ball like these guys could shoot the ball now. And that's okay. There was no 16 guys like Anthony Davis. There was no guy like Joel Embiid. There's no guy like Nikola Jokic. And that's okay. That's not to diminish those guys. Those guys were great. But the guys,

the skill, there are more guys that are able to do more things than they were back then. And don't give me that what they didn't do it. Well, if they could, they would have done it. They would have done it. If that's the thing that's, that's what when Jordan, he realized like, you know what, I'm flying through the air, but if I want to expand my game, I got to get this mid range, so he worked on that. If guys could really shoot the three, then worked on it and they got good at it. Like these guys have.

I mean, there are not bare-minded bigs that can't shoot the three ball in today's game on Joe. It's almost a, it's almost a prerequisite. You've got to look at all your bigs. Look at all your great bigs. I'm talking about the city of like your kitchen and B Anthony Davis, they can shoot it. Yeah.

Even Kevin Iran's not a five, but Kevin ran 16 and a half, six 11. He can shoot it. It's just, I just, I just don't like the fact that we, we don't want to give these guys credit. Yes. The league is different. Y'all didn't want to look at their attendance with all they did was fight. Look at their attendance in the nineties with all them hard ass fouls. Nobody wanted that.

People like scoring. As much as y'all complain, that's what y'all wanna see. Y'all ain't bet nobody, I ain't never seen nobody parlay where they said, hold this team under 90 points. Or defense. No, y'all want scoring.

Y'all want touchdowns. You want home runs. You want threes. And then when the league gives it to you, it is what it is. I understand the game is different. I understand that they've legislated a lot of physicality out of the game of basketball, out of the game of football. I understand it, Ocho, and we understand why in football. With the lawsuits the concussion the the the guys being leaving the game and lot of being

Injured we get it. Yeah, but isn't that what you wanted? Who wants to go to a game and see what they used to see in the night is f in 73 71 the entire game That was the final score, right? Nobody want to see. Just like baseball. Oh, a one nothing ball game, the purest. Man, I wanna see 10, 11 to 10. I'm gonna see home runs. Yes, I wanna see the ball going over it.

I wanna see the ball flying over the wall. I wanna see a bunch of up and down. Look, I ain't saying I wanna see the NBA All-Star game. I don't wanna see that bulljive. Right, right, right, right, right. But I do wanna see teams getting up and down. I wanna't want to see that bulljie. Right, right, right, right. But I do want to see teams getting up and down. I want to see a game that get into the hundreds.

But I disagree with Pat Riley. Pat Riley also said that he could have won six championships, up to six championships if LeBron had stayed. Okay. Yeah. Had you gotten some help. I can agree with that. LeBron had stayed, D-Way was there. But D-Way just started to break down.

D-Way's a little older. Remember D-Way had bad knees coming into it. And for him to get as many years as he did, it lets you know how well he had taken care of his body. But at his age, you got to realize D-Way went to school three years. So he's already three to four years older than LeBron. So when he gets in, at that juncture, V-Way came in in 2004,

oh three, LeBron was, he was oh three. So LeBron last year was what, 2013? So think about that. That's 13, that's 14 years. So he got in, he's damn, we already about 36, 37. Then also 14 lost the first 14. So, so that's already 11 years. So if he's coming in, he's coming to the NBA Ocho at 23.

22, 23, so he at least 22, at least 22. So now he's already 33. I still think they could have did it though. Hey, we got LeBron, you had D Wade. What's uh, what's uh, tall young bull name, man? Oh, Chris Bosh. Oh, Chris Bosh. Yeah. Chris Bosh. You got to remember Ocho the next year.

Uh, uh, he got those blood clots. Yeah. I mean, just hypothetically speaking, if he didn't have the issue with the blood clots, I think it was possible. But what's the likelihood? Because that's something that you can't, you can't factor in. He got the blood clots and he really never played anymore after that. D-Wade needs to start to get ball key on him.

Ray Allen was older. Yeah, he could still, but he had done, because we got to remember when LeBron left, Ray retired. So he was done. I think Rio ended up, didn't Rio end up tearing his ACL. I mean, Ocho in order to win multiple championships, a lot of things have to go right. Right.

Um, and that, they don't, that, um, that doesn't always happen. Um, and I get it. Cause Pat, Pat, look, Pat tried to collect jewelry, passed the ring collector. At this point of his career, the only thing that mattered to him is rings. Rings, yeah. And he realized the likelihood of him ever getting, he loved Jimmy Butler, eight LeBron, and the likelihood of him ever getting another one of those is not happening.

Right. And he knows without that type of player is hard. It's hard to win unless you got guys like you got a Jalen Brown, you got a Jason Tatum that you groomed, that you got together and they're okay with each other. Play it off of each other. One doesn't get mad if somebody gets more credit or more pub and you don't have the bickering. That's why, that's why Kareem and Magic, you got us big and a little.

Hey, Cap, you been here, how you want it? Magic was always, was always deferential to Kareem. Kobe and Shaq butted, tore it apart and boom, prematurely it was gone. You look at Clay, you look at Steph. Stay, Clay like, okay, I'll be the second, third greatest shooter ever. I'm cool with that. Right. They stay together.

They went for it. Carrie and LeBron. Boom. Whatever happens, they start the butt. Split it up. Yeah. So, um, a lot, you got a lot of time though, children, you got to swallow your pride. You got to, I started watching the dynasty today,

the story about the Patriots. Right. Take a look at it. It's good? Yeah. All right, I'm gonna check that out. Yeah. Check that out.

Yeah, it's very good. Stephon Marbury on the goat debate, how is LeBron better than Joe when he is better than Kobe? I'm trying to figure that out. Oh man. Man, this is an ongoing debate. It is. And you're not gonna settle it.

You got people in Jordan's corner, you got people in LeBron, but what I don't understand, I'm gonna let you go on this. This is what I don't understand. If you support LeBron, you getting paid. So how much is Jordan and Kobe paying his supporters? Nobody will answer that.

Right. Because if you say something, you on clutch payroll. So when they say on Kobe, is Kobe estate paying you? Are you getting free shoes? Are you getting free gear from Jordan? Is Jordan paying you? That's all I will know. If y'all can answer that, I'm cool.

Right. Where you are on that debate, if you say Jordan, if you say Kobe, if you say Kobe, if you say Magic, if you say Shaq, you say Kareem, you say LeBron. More time than not, people are already dug in. It's kind of like the election. People had their mind made up. It was going to be President Trump.

You not moving them off that. Right. You're not. So why do you waste your time? I saw Jordan. I saw LeBron. I'm cool either way. I know who I feel. Right.

And I'm good with it. I ain't losing no sleep over it. Mm-hmm. But it's very difficult when we talk about the greats, the elite, the elite greats that are in a class of their own, especially when it comes to football, you know, your T.O.'s, your Randy Mosses, your Jerry Rice's, then you talk about your LeBron's, your goddamn Michael Jordan's, your Kobe Bryant's. I mean, these dudes are the cream of the crop

at their respective crafts, and you have to nitpick and be, and take a fine-tooth comb just to be able to separate the two, you know? I mean, or actually the three in this case. And I think it all comes down to preference. I think it all comes down to preference. It does?

Jordan had the prettiest game you've ever seen. You want to see somebody hang in the air and levitate. He was the first guy that we really saw, Ocho. Now, that was, Connie Hawkins could glide through the air. Dr. J could glide through the air. But when we really got when basketball really hit Magic and Jordan and then Jordan came along, that got elevated flying through the air with his tongue hanging out. I'm like, OK, he different.

Yeah, he different. It's got to be the shoes. But then he had all the commercials he had to the Haynes and he had the Haynes and he had the Air George and he had a Gatorade. And he had all, he was, he was it. Yeah. He made dark skinned coos good again. Because before him, El the Barge and Chico the Barge and Al be sure, man brother couldn't get no plate.

Right. He couldn't get, he couldn't get nothing. brother could get no play. Right. He could get, he could get done. But then you look, you look, you got, you got Kobe who comes along, young 17, 18 year old who mimicked and idolized Jordan and took some of his mannerisms. That same, that mama mentality, that same killer instinct when it came to playing the game of basketball, where he give nobody, no grace. No grace. He had that same killer instinct, you know, out on the court and the mannerisms,

the movements, the style of play, it was damn near the same. Right. And then, and then LeBron shows up. And that's why I say it's, it's three different, almost three different areas, eras where they kind of, kind of crossed and messed a little bit. But I like, I mean, I don't know why we just enjoy all of them, you know, and not have to put them, put them up against each other when it comes to who's the best at what they do.

Yeah. I mean, um, no, none of these guys had the expectations that LeBron had. Right. So Colby got a chance just to blend in 96, 97, 98. They happened. Colby came off the bench. LeBron never came off the bench. LeBron could have been a starter in the NBA in high school.

That's how great he was. Jordan hit the floor. Jordan was running. Jordan was second team all the NBA. He averaged 28 points a game. He was sensational. Right. But Jordan didn't have the expectations because we hadn't seen a guy come out.

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin, Kevin, Gar, Gar, net was the high first high school player that had come out of straight from high school in a very long time. Right. But even KG did not have the expectations. What LeBron had, whatever you what LeBron had. And whatever you thought LeBron might be, if you thought LeBron has exceeded expectations, nobody thought he's a pass first when people say,

well, look at how many times Jordan shot the ball at least 22 times a game in his career. Look how many times LeBron shot the ball 22 times a game in his career, four seasons. Like 12 or 13 of Jordan's 15 seasons, he shot the ball at least 22 times. Right. So if you extrapolate that, now here's LeBron. He's number one in points.

He's top five in assists. You're never going to see that again. You're never going to see that again. Right. So there is compelling arguments that you can make for whoever you decide. But. That's step on Marlboro's opinion, he look, I don't think he's very fond of LeBron.

That's OK. That's OK. Like I said, I like a little Everybody know y'all just saw me on whatnot selling about 300 pairs of shoes and damn the 250 of them with Jordan So y'all know what I feel about Jordan and I got a boatload of a bunch of Colby's that I only know if I'm gonna Get rid of those But it's just it's all it's just, it's all, it's a preference. Um, but the question is if y'all, if, if Kobe hadn't the body hadn't broken down, y'all think Kobe would have stopped at 20 years or he kept playing.

Oh Joe kept playing. If Jordan body hadn't broken down, do you think he to stop the 15 season or he kept playing? Kept playing. Do you think he just stopped at 15 season or he kept playing? Kept playing. Thank you. Kept playing. Don't get mad at LeBron cause LeBron took care of himself and his body hadn't betrayed him yet.

Kobe, Kobe took care of himself, but he started having, you know, he had the Achilles injury at that age, at that, at that juncture of your career. I want you to get one of those man. Yeah. Bar time, bro. But he had Torres labrum, his, you know, it was just the words. Yeah. You know, cause Kobe was going, they was going to the NBA finals and they

fought to have a long seasons and his body just broke down. Jordan gonna get his cigars in. If Jordan go get on them sticks hard. Oh yeah. Jordan had them one bad age, the baby lasted two, three days. And he probably going through three or four of a day. Mm-hmm.

But look, if you like Jordan, I ain't gonna fight you. If you like Kobe, I ain't gonna fight you. If you like LeBron, welcome home. But if you don't like LeBron, I don't dislike you. Right. It's just a preference. Anthony Edwards had a lot to say this evening though, Joe. Said he feels like the team is growing apart, that they can't

talk to each other anymore. It's everyone. He's not singling out the newbies since everyone has their own agendas right now. And we got to look up everybody chair effing hype. We get down and don't nobody say nothing. That's the definition of front running. We're a team, including myself. We're all front runners tonight. It was some bull jive for sure. You know, all teams go through this. Everybody go through this every once in a while and it's still early in the season. If you're gonna have a time like this, the first

thing you got to do is, hell you the captain, I'm sure you the captain, the one that leads the team, then you call a goddamn team meeting. Call a goddamn team meeting. Listen man, we ain't finna, we can't rock like this. If not, if we're trying to reach the end goal before the season started, we know what the end goal is. But we can't be operating like this, not this early. See, y'all better get it the fuck together. Yeah, I agree. It's just tough, Ocho, because now you have expectations.

You went to the Western Conference finals last year. But what I don't get is that you went to the Western Conference Finals and you trade your second best player. Did with the something that we don't know that he and Kat, I thought he and Kat, uh, when I sat down with Kat, he had a great, he talked about, they have a great relationship. You don't really know Ocho. Unless you're in that locker room, you really don't know.

But I have no reason to believe that cat was lying Right you like Julius? I don't know if he's as good a fit as cat. Right. Okay. Okay. Okay I don't like him with cat. I don't like Jewish with cat Right, like I like cat with aunt. Okay.. I see I see that's what I meant to say I don't like it with Julius like I did and with cat. Yeah, okay But next week and you got expectations now and Sometimes the hardest thing is to overcome his expectations. You see when you weren't doing anything

Y'all missed the playoffs and you weren't going very far. Now you have expectations. People expect you to be great. That's the hardest thing. That's what people don't understand about greatness is that there, once you reach that level is to stay there. Yeah. You see a lot of guys go to a pro world one year being all pro one year, but

can you do it the year after year, year after year, game after game, month after month, that's what's so, that's what's so spectacular is that you have this But can you do it the year after year, year after year, game after game, month after month? That's what's so spectacular is that you have this. I mean, Tom Brady got there and he stayed there. Peyton Manning got there and he stayed there. Mahone, since he's been a starter, has been there. And you look at the other greats, you look at a JJ Y, you look at a TJ Y, you look at these guys, the Reggie Wise, the Deons, the Jerrys.

Now, obviously once you start getting later later, you're not gonna be what you were Ocho, you know your five and here you are 1415 quarterbacks can but it gets harder and harder for skill position players. Like I said Jerry's an anomaly Yeah, play 20 C Jerry's an anomaly. Oh Joe, you're notcho. You're not gonna find another Jerry Rice. I gotta have over 1,200 yards at 40 plus. That ain't happening. At 42, he had a 100 yard game, Ocho. Can you imagine?

Yeah. Hey, he's the goat for a reason. And the thing is though, Ocho, is that you get to the Western Conference Finals with Kat and Ant, and you move Kat? I mean, listen, that might have been something internally. And it just never ever got out, you know? They kept it under wraps.

Kat maybe voiced his frustrations about being there and they, they, they made it happen. I look, Leon Rose used to be at CAA. Now he's running here in worldwide West. They're running the next. That was a cat's first agent. I think if I'm not mistaken. Right. So obviously cat from the Jersey area.

That's great. I mean, he could have been, they could have traded into a worst place, but. And talking to him, he wanted to build on what they had started. You know, like, okay, I got here. We were, we were bad at first, but now we got, you know, we got ant, we got a superstar to pair alongside with me. We can go places, right? You know, my colleague orchestrating everything you got Rudy. You got

Daniels you got some you got some nice pieces. Oh Joe, that's Reed coming off the bench You I just did that I'm surprised that they made that move considering how far they got the previous year So, you know, you don't think you don't think you don't think, you don't think, you don't think their chance of making the Western Harbor final are good having Julius? No. No, I don't. Hey there, it's Michael Lewis, author of going infinite money ball, the blind side and liar's poker. And every season of my podcast against the rules, I take a broad look at various characters

in American life. The referee. The coach. The expert. My next season is all about fans and what the rise of sports betting is doing to them, to the teams, and even to my family. I'm heading to Las Vegas and New Jersey and beyond to understand America's newest form of legalized gambling. Listen to Against the Rules on the iHeart Radio app, Apple

podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Boogie Cousins believed that Zion Williamson was set up to fail by being drafted to a city like New Orleans. I thought it was a bad decision. Let's rewind all the way back. When this guy's getting drafted, we knew he was going to New Orleans. It was a way concern. That was bad then.

New Orleans is a place that just gives hell. That's a place that you go to gain 10 pounds. You go out there and drink, have a good time. That's what the culture is in New Orleans. So to put that kid in a situation like they expect them thrive, that was the first mistake. Come on, the city had nothing to do with him playing 190 games over five years.

Ocho. So I'm not supposed to, he's the best talent in the draft. I'm not gonna draft it because of New Orleans. It's one of the fattest cities in the USA. Right. But I'm not gonna draft it because... Come on, bookie. Listen, we can't make no excuses now, you know?

Yes, that's him. Once you get drafted, you get to a team of people that understand, that have your best interests at heart, and knowing what it takes for you to compete at a high level and live up to the expectations that you had coming out of coming out of college. It's pretty simple. It's not hard. It's not, it's not rocket science. Take the game basketball serious.

Like you've always taken it all your life. Now that you've been afforded the opportunity to live out your childhood dream, it's not that difficult. We've seen a lot of players do it, especially if you want to be great at what you do, you want to be great at your career. He doesn't want to be great. You want to play, you want to play very, very long, not get your money and then fall.

He doesn't. Zion had the problem. What I told my kids, I can't want something more than you want it for yourself. Everybody wants Zion to get in shape except Zion. Everybody wants Zion to have discipline except Zion. So how can I want something? How can the team want something more for him than he wants it for himself?

Right. That's why they put in his contract. Look how they got in his contract. That he has to hit weight clauses because they know him. That's not the team fault. That ain't got nothing to do with New Orleans. That's Zion. He has no discipline ass.

That's all that comes down to, Ocho. Discipline requires you to do your very best when no one else is watching. Doing what you need to do instead of what you want to do. I know I wanna eat this gumbo. I want to eat this jambalaya. I want to eat this po' boy. I want to eat this etouffee, this boudin.

But what I need to do is to hire me a personal chef and eat fish and eat chicken and eat turkey and eat lean cuts of meat and eat veggies. But that's not what he, that's not what he, that's not what he need. That's what he wants to do. So he eats that bulljab. Right.

And then everybody talk, make excuses for him. He just a big, people talk about this. Shana, look at an elephant. He only eat his grass. Yeah, but he eat 400 pounds over the day. That's why his ass big. Yeah, look at a whale. Yeah, but you eat thousands and thousands of pounds of creel,

you gonna be big. Big, yeah. Zion doesn't have discipline. Y'all gotta stop making excuses for what he. 100 million, do you see what the money that Jason Taylor just got? Yeah. That could be Zion. Yeah, his approach to the game is completely different

His approach to the game is completely different. He will eat himself out the league Well, I guess you know, hey ask for trial with the Saints. They play left tackle baby can play DN Don't give them out. Give me you can get an NFL. Yeah Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Let me turn this AC down, boy. I'm cold, boy. Shit. Man, I don't get it. I don't chat.

Y'all can't convince me. Now y'all done made excuses, and I'm not trying to shame the man, but this is embarrassing. This is embarrassing. He don't care enough about the game, but y'all mad at me when I call him out and says he's undisciplined, that he's not trying.

Well, maybe, stop. Yeah, y'all say let the kid eat, even though the man eating himself out of a job. Y'all say, I can see, the guy that said that, that tells me everything I need to know about you. That says more about you than it tells about him. Let the, you see a man sabotaging himself and you say, let him continue down this road.

But then y'all quick to say, why the vest didn't pull him aside? Why didn't Shadda, why didn't you reach out? Why didn't you try to help? Because dumb, dumb like you jump in the chat and say, let the man eat. Y'all the same ones that when AB was on that bulldog let that man live his life. Shadow you don't live

yours you don't know what you talking about. Now look it's embarrassing You know, I know, think about what you said, Aiden Lee, he's only 22 and he that big. What do big kids become? Big adults. Baby elephants are cute and cuddly. What do they grow up to be? Big? Ocho, this man, somebody in the chat said let that man live his life. Another dude talking about he only 22, huh? He that big at 22. How big is he going to be at 25,

Ocho? How big is he going to be at 30? What about when you retire? Hey, boy, it's cold as hell in here, boy. My bad. Shit. But see, when they always say, we ain't have nobody in the corner, the veterans, but when best try to tell, listen, what people have tried to, I guarantee people in the locker room have tried to tell Zanya,

bro, Ocho, I got somebody to prepare my meals. I've had somebody prepare my meals for the last 10, 15 years. I don't make nearly the money. You mean to tell me you got almost a $200 million contract and you can't pay 100,000 or 150,000 because I look at it as an investment. Ocho, you buy something for it.

You're vesting something. You expect that thing to play huge dividends down the road Yeah, I'm a bit going for a little bit. Look at it now people bought Apple Google Netflix Navita whatever the case may be you invest a little you get a lot. Right? Oh Joe, you mean to tell me I can't invest in me You mean to tell me I can't invest in me? I can't spend a million dollars, I can't spend a million dollars, two million dollars to get 50, 70 million dollars a year in return? Yeah. But listen, this is a case that we always talk about.

As a player, you have to want it for yourself. You can't want it more than him. So people in the locker room telling him, coaches telling him, friends telling him, whether it be family telling them, until he gets it through his mind, in order for me to function at the best of my ability, at the highest level, and become, remain one of the greats, and live up to the expectations that we all thought, you know, he would be, he has to want to do it. We can't complain about it. I said Navita. I didn't say't complain about it. I said Navita.

I didn't say Nevada, Cassie. I said Navita, but okay. Yeah, but close. I ain't saying no to Nevada. I know I didn't say that. I mean, oh, sure. The guys missed 190 games in five seasons. 190 games?

That's damn near 40 games a season. Yeah. But I know one thing. He's out again. Yeah. I know one thing. What? I know what he looks like and I know what you get once he on that goddamn court, boy. Okay. When is he there, though? I know. I hear what you're saying, baby. I hear what you say. That joker, nice boy. When he is playing. Ain't no telling what he's going to do. So is he a part time or full time employee? Because I'm paying a full time wages, but I'm getting part time work. Part time.

And do you think? Oh, I got a question for you, though. Yeah. What do you think about them trading them? And if they if he was to go into trade block or if they are fed up with him not being healthy, not being available, would you like to see him go? Because here's the thing, let's just say for the sake of argument, they're trading. It's gonna look even worse if he get his ass in shape because why couldn't you do it there?

Ah, that's a good one. But I mean, Ocho, they- Maybe a change of scenery is necessary. Maybe it's something that it needs. They got half that food everywhere you go. What the hell you think, all of a sudden you gonna turn vegan? I'm confused.

I don't get why people, when you get in that situation, Ocho, and this is what I tell guys all the time, there'll be a time and a place you can act the damn fool, but before then get all the money you can. So then when they get rid of you, you can say, I got 500 million, 700 million, I can act a damn fool. But I'm not leaving no money on the table.

Right. I'm not. And I'm not going to end my career prematurely. I'm not and I'm not gonna end my career prematurely I'm gonna squeeze every last bit cuz I'm sure I can find something to do with the whole or the peel of the orange I'm sure I can find some use with it. I'm gonna get all the juice And then I'm gonna eat it, but I gotta find a use let me look up What can I do with an orange peel? Is there something I can do? Hey, I can cook I can squeeze the zest I bet I dip don't it put zest on do? Hey, I can cook, I can squeeze the zest. They don't even put zest, orange zest.

Yeah, I can find something on you. I'm getting every last drop out of this orange. Right. I'm just not gonna juice. That's it. Come on Zion, bro. You gotta think, maybe as he gets older, maybe it'll click.

Maybe it will click. You do realize it's harder to get weight off you when you're that size as you get older. You do realize it's harder to get weight off you when you're that size as you get older. Oh, you ain't got to tell me. Cause you know, when I was, when I was, when I was 18, I was about, nevermind. I don't, man, with that kind of, okay.

Oh, do you know what some people not not all because we've seen people have good jobs and that one professional athletes and squander it and F it up. Being tardy or being drunk, getting high, doing whatever the case may be. But when you get in that situation, how I wonder how many times did that man dream of being in the situation that he was in.

Say, Lord, if you help me get here, I ain't gonna know no way I mess it up. Right, right, right. And Lord, behold, he get there and then boom. That's what I just, I just don't get it. I don't. I don't. I don't get it and nobody's gonna make me understand. Oh Joe, BJ Armstrong, today's NBA player robots who just shoot three-pointers and hunt for

fouls. When I go watch the game, there's no more creativity. There's no more imagination. It's just, we have basically robots running up and down the court. You run to the three point line. I run to the three point line. First. I try to get a layup.

I can't get a layup. I try to get foul. If someone drives and they don't call a foul, these players go berserk. Now they have the right of pass to go to the basket and look for foul. They're not even going to basket score. They're looking to the basket. They're looking to go to the basket and look for a foul. They're not even going to basket score. They're looking to the basket. They're looking to go to the basket to get foul. This is what's being taught.

I'm not going to be mad at the players. Uh, this is what's being taught. We've striped, uh, stripped the players of any kind of imagination. We've stripped the players of any type of read the defense tape with the defense has given you. You agree? I mean, I understand what you're saying, but the game has evolved since BJ has played. And there are players that have a creative mindset.

There are players that are really good at creating space, putting the ball on the floor, being able to beat people off the dribble on their own. That in itself is creativity. Where's the creativity taking taking 63 the night. Well, hold on there. There are very few teams that do that. You know that right? The Celtics, the Warriors, how many, how many, how many threes do at the NBA game?

We've, we've been there. Hold on. It, they shot, they shot 70 and the Lakers game and the Lakers game tonight. They shot 74 combined threes. They made 27 of them. Hold on. I'm talking about efficient. Who's more efficient from, from the three point line outside of the

goddamn Warriors or Celtics? That's, that's his point. Ain't nobody efficient and they keep jacking them up. You made it for him. You made it for him. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, the old, the old, the old heads can't. You made it for him. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, Oh, the overheads can't complain about what a game is.

Now the game is different. Oh Joe, they average shooting per team, 37 and a half threes per game. Okay. So you extrapolate that times to that 74 threes a game. You know, that's like, that's like me saying, you know what? I'm mad there's no creativity and we don't run the ball to open up the pass first like they did back when we was playing, not eight on the ball 70 times a game.

Yeah. Ain't the game has changed. The game has evolved. It's not the same as it once was. No, at some point you got to adapt with the times that we're in and not complaining about them and just enjoy it. But I, listen, I totally understand where he's coming from. I do understand that.

Well, something is going on because the ratings is not looking good right now, Ocho. The lack of defense, you know, they feel like people are just going to the basket. They cry, like you said, they cry when they don't get foul. I understand that sometimes, but bruh, I mean, Ocho, if I thought, it's like they turn the ball over, they think they get fouled, they argue with the referee,

and the other team got the ball going. If I think I got held, and the quarterback throws a pick, and the guy's running the ball the other way, why the hell I'm gonna argue with the back judge? Let me go make the tackle, and then the next time out, I say, bro, that was, he held me. These guys arguing with the back judge. Let me go make the tackle and then the next time I said bro That was he held me These guys argue with the officials and together better got the ball in the breaking booth. They laid it up Uh, I don't know look yes, I'm like you oh Ocho, I look, I take it for what it is.

I know the game is evolved, it's going to ever evolve. And I think some people got to just get over the fact. Right. This is what it is now. It ain't going back. It's not going back. It's going forward. And you might even see less defense.

You might see more threes because everybody feels the way to win games is to shoot the three. And that's why you don't see ain't nobody. That's why you don't see a whole lot of guys that can post up. Right. Post up for what? That's a two. You don't see guys trying to dunk as much. It used to be I want to be like Mike.

They say now it'll be like Steph. dunk as much. It used to be I want to be like Mike. They say now it'll be like Steph. I mean, oh, Joe, look at you. Watch what you're on YouTube. Seven, eight year old stepping back, shoot three. Oh, you ain't nobody going to the basket. They're joking. Stepping back, shoot three like James Harden.

I'm like, bro, come on now. Yeah. That's where the game is headed. They see it and it is what it is. Hey, I've accepted it. I don't get mad. I just look at it like, damn, at least stop it, just don't let it have a layup line.

That's all I know. And you know how they be warm up on you and they just lay the ball up. Sometimes it be like that in the game. I'm like, bro, y'all not gonna stop him at all. Y'all gonna even start like try. That's where they are. The Volume.

Hey there, it's Michael Lewis, author of Going Infinite, Moneyball, The Blind Side and Liar's Poker. On the latest season of my podcast Against the Rules, I'm exploring what it means to be a sports fan in America and what the rise of sports betting is doing to our teams, our states, and ourselves. Join me and listen to Against the Rules on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search Against the Rules.

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