Club Shay Shay - Tony Dungy

Episode Date: December 21, 2020

On episode 14 of Club Shay Shay, Shannon welcomes in fellow member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, a Super Bowl-winning player as well as coach: Tony Dungy.Every phase of Tony Dungy’s life has provided him several learning opportunities – from developing a work ethic and determination courtesy of his parents, to observing first-year coach Bill Walsh building a new system in San Francisco. Coach Dungy guides Shannon through the arc of his playing and coaching career, relaying inspiring stories and lessons he learned along the way. He discusses what it was like to coach one of the all-time greats like Peyton Manning, how he accomplished his childhood dream of playing in the NFL, the legacy of his coaching tree and more. In addition to covering Dungy’s history in the league, he and Shannon cover the current state of the NFL, including Brady & Belichick’s split, his MVP pick, Patrick Mahomes’ unique ability and much more. The two discuss ways to improve minority representation in coaching positions, and Dungy’s role with the Houston Texans advising them in their search for a new general manager and head coach. Tony Dungy talks about football with passion and expertise, diving deep with Shannon into the x’s and o’s of playing and coaching in the NFL, adding tons of great behind-the-scenes stories from his historic career.#DoSomethinB4TwoSomethin & Follow Club Shay Shay:                                                                 https://www.instagram.com/clubshayshayhttps://twitter.com/clubshayshayhttps://www.facebook.com/clubshayshayhttps://www.youtube.com/c/clubshayshay Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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we also go deep with real-time wagering lines, trending prop bets, win probability, and key player projections. Download the new Fox Sports app or visit www.foxsports.com now. Let's start the show. Hello, welcome to another edition of Club Che Che. I am your host, also the proprietor of Club Che Che. The guy that's stopping by today, he's not going to have a drink, but he is going to have a great conversation.

He's one of the few that's won a Super Bowl as a player and as a head coach. Hall of Famer, Tony Dungey. all my life all my life been grinding all my life sacrifice hustle paid the price wanna slice got to roll the dice that's why all my life i've been grinding all my life coach how are you today hey good to be with you shannon i'm doing great thank you so coach i know you're doing your thing on nbc uh sunday night football in america what else do do you have going on right now? Well, I'll tell you what. They've kind of doubled up on me this year, Shannon, with Notre Dame football, which got me back into college football.

And I also called last Sunday night's game with Mike Tirico, Green Bay in Chicago. And that was a great experience for me. So trying to get my family together and keep that rolling and do a few things. Football-wise, it's been a fun fall. Cole, do you like, I mean, obviously you're an analyst. Do you like calling games? You know, I'm getting used to it and I've really enjoyed it.

The college game was something because NFL, you know the players pretty much. You know who's on what team and they kind of stay in one position. In college, there's a hundred guys. They-flop they wear different numbers you got Lyman wearing number zero it's a trip getting to know everybody uh but I I have enjoyed it and Mike Tirico I have to tell you is just the best he's fantastic and made me feel so comfortable how how different is it just in your critique? Because you're talking about

professionals that get paid, that they are professionals, as opposed to 17, 18-year-old college kids. I really had to keep that in mind. It's totally different when a college guy drops a ball. I can't say, oh, Shannon Sharp, what is he doing? He should have caught that ball. What is he thinking? You have to be a little more kid-glovious and say, hey, they're out there trying. I know he wants that ball back. He'd like to make that catch again. So, Coach, obviously, so has it changed from the way you analyze a game? Because obviously when you're in studio,

you're going to have to talk about a lot of games as opposed to calling a game. You're talking about a specific team and specific players, and you get really specificity. So how different is it calling a specific game as opposed to watching a lot of tape and having to analyze a lot of different teams? It's totally different preparation. And you want to really be able to be proactive when you're calling a game live.

You want to know what that team does, what the other team does, so you can kind of anticipate, hey, I see them doing this, so they might go here to this guy. When you're in the studio, you're just reacting. You're actually looking at the game and talking about what they already did. So it's a lot easier in the studio. Coach, I totally agree with you because I tell people all the time, it's a lot easier to talk about what has happened or what you think will happen as opposed to what's actually happening at that given moment. And so you have to be really, really in tune to what's going on. No, no question about it. And you do your, your homework. You watch a lot of tape, you talk to the coaches.

Hey, what are you thinking? Try to get some, some things where you can anticipate but when in the moment and it happens fast and you're trying to be fair something happens was this a blown coverage well whose fault was it you don't want to come out and say oh the safety should have done this and was really the corner so it's a lot harder doing it when it's live, for sure. Coach, you grew up with two teachers, your mom, your dad. What were some of the values that they instilled in you that helped you become the coach, the person that we see today? Shannon, I have to tell you, I got two things from my parents,

and I'm glad that I did. But from my dad, it was kind of that work ethic and that kind of feeling that they had back there in the 50s and 60s. We're not going to let anything stop us. Don't let anybody else define you. You decide what you want to do. Work hard and don't let anybody tell you you can't do it. And then from my mom's side, it was how you do it and how you do things is much more important than what you do. Put it in the Lord's hands, work hard, be honest, be upfront and make sure you have integrity in everything you do. So getting both sides of that, hey, don't let anybody

stop you, but do things the right way, treat people right and do it the right way. I got that from my parents, and that was great advice. Well, I want to know who you get the patience from, because your parents had to have the patience from Joe, because you got unbelievable patience. I'll tell you, Shannon, that developed as I got older. My high school buddies, when people describe me like that, they just laugh now, because I was the king of technical fouls. I got thrown out of games, all of that kind of just blowing up, crazy one to win.

And my dad would always tell me, you're not helping your team in the locker room. When you get two technical fouls and you're on the bench, that didn't help your team. And I said, I know, Dad, but it felt good. And that's what I had to get off my chest. I know that, but it felt good. And that's what I had to get off my chest. But as I grew and got with Tom Moore, who was my quarterback coach in college, and he said, if you're going to play quarterback for me, you've got stop and think, what can I do to make the situation better? And blowing up usually isn't going to help make the situation better. You got to think about how you're going to respond going forward. It took me a long time to learn that, but over the years I got better at it.

Coach, your father was a member of the famed Tuskegee Airmen. How, what sense of pride do you feel knowing how they're thought of? They're almost like mythical figures in the community. It has been a source of pride and a source of honor for me. And my dad never really, he didn't brag about that. He didn't talk about it. He would always, when I would go and tell him something wasn't fair, the teacher gave me a C and I should have got a B. The coach won't put me in the game and he's playing his son. And, you know, those kinds of things. My dad would just say, well, you know what? Sometimes life isn't fair. So when they didn't want us to fly, we had to teach ourselves how to fly. And all of, when I was growing up, I never understood that. I didn't know what he was talking about.

And I got his message, okay, don't let the other people get to you and just keep working hard. But then at his funeral, one of his friends stood up and talked, and he said, hey, one of the proudest moments with Will Dungey is when we knew he went in the Tuskegee Airmen. And I was like, what? My dad was in the Tuskegee Airmen? And then the light bulb went on. That's what he was talking about. We taught ourselves to fly. And from then on,

and I was so proud of him. So he didn't really talk about, because a lot of times, obviously, you know, when you accomplish something of this, you know, you sit back and obviously at the time, but when you sit back and get an opportunity to tell your kids or your grandkids something, it was something that he really never talked about. He didn't talk about that. He talked about being in the service. He talked about fighting. He talked about flying planes, but he never talked about being in the airmen. And it's funny, last year I got to interview one of the few living members of the Tuskegee Airmen, a gentleman named Colonel Harry Stewart. He was just unbelievable. And we're talking and I sound like I'm talking to my dad. He's telling me the same kind of thing. So I said,

Colonel Stewart, how much did you go into detail with your kids about how things were and what you did? He said, I never talked about it with my kids. I didn't want them to know what we had to fight our way through. I just wanted them to look forward and go ahead. And I said, wow, you sound just like my dad. So in other words, your father was partaking information to you, just like this gentleman was partaking information because he didn't want you or his kids to have an excuse for why you didn't accomplish something. Yeah, exactly. Hey, I don't care what is thrown in front of you. Don't let anybody define you. You make up your decision where to go, what to do. You stay at it and don't allow any excuses. He wanted to teach school. After he came back from the airmen, he wanted to teach in Washington, D.C.

And he wasn't allowed to teach. 1952, wasn't allowed to teach in integrated schools. So he said, hey, I had a choice. I could get on the bus. But you know what? I couldn't sit in certain places on the bus. So I walked. I walked past that white school and I walked to the all black school. And you know what I did? I made sure my students knew more about science than anybody in that other school. That's what I could do to make the situation better. And those are the kind of things he would tell me. He said, don't don't harp on what's wrong or what the problem is or what you can't do. Figure out a way to make the situation better. And that's that's the way he would talk to us. What did Tony Dungy want to be growing up? You know, I kind of wanted to be like my dad and mom. They were teachers. And so I kind of thought that might be my next track. I became a good athlete. I got a scholarship to the University of Minnesota. And then my dream was to play in the NFL. I was a quarterback.

Okay. And my dream was to play quarterback in the NFL. Coach, you were playing the wrong position at that time. At the time, I was. This is 1970s, you know. I'll tell you, Shannon, and you would find this hard to believe now, but I played a game as a senior in college, quarterback in the University of Minnesota. Warren college, quarterback in the University of Minnesota.

Warren Moon is quarterback in the University of Washington. I'm leading the Big Ten in passing. Warren Moon's leading the Pac-10 in passing. We have a great game. They beat us. I do not get drafted. They tell me your skill set, you need to change positions. So I become a defensive back. Warren Moon doesn't get drafted. They tell him his skill set might be better in Canada. He goes to Canada and wins five great cups and comes back. But that's how it was at that time. It was kind of unbelievable.

You look at it now and say, what Warren Moon skill set doesn't translate to the NFL? Are you kidding me? But that's how it was then. At the time, if you look at it now, Warren Moon might be, of all the black quarterbacks he's ever been, he might be the purest of the dropback quarterbacks I've ever been. Prettiest ball I've ever seen.

Unbelievable. And could do it all. And he, I said, I want to play in the NFL. So I said, I'm willing to switch positions. When they talked to Warren about that, he said, no, I want to be a quarterback. If I have to go to Canada, I'll go to Canada and continue to be a quarterback.

And then after he just kept winning and kept winning and kept winning up there, then the Houston Oilers gave him an opportunity. But it was that kind of thing. And I tell my kids now, hey, what you see Russell Wilson and Patrick Mahomes doing now and deshaun watson we had a bunch of guys like that yes just the game the game wasn't set up that way 25 years ago coach how many how many um colleges were willing to give you the opportunity because a lot of times

there are black players that were coming out that played the quarterback position that had to switch the running back they had to switch wide receiver as you mentioned defensive back how many schools were willing to give you that opportunity says okay coach i mean tony if you come here you can play quarterback at that time it was changing but that's what a lot of people you would go visit a school and a lot of the black players would tell you make sure they tell you you're going to play quarterback because we got so-and-so here. He came and they put him at safety. We got so-and-so and they put him at wide receiver. So you make sure they promise you that you're going to be a quarterback.

And that was one of the reasons I went to Minnesota. Sandy Stevens had won a national championship quarterback. They had black quarterbacks all the way through. And the coach said, you're going to be our quarterback if you come here. And that's what I wanted to do. You go undrafted. They say, well, if you want an opportunity to play in the NFL, you're going to have to switch positions. You switch positions. You go undrafted. Why did you settle? Because obviously when you're undrafted, you get to choose. I mean, Pittsburgh probably offer you maybe another team. What made you decide to go to the Steelers?

Besides they were coming out for Super Bowl. I had a chance. I really did. Bill Poland was the general manager in Montreal. Mark was the coach. They had my rights. And they said, you can come to Canada, play quarterback guaranteed

money we're going to take care of you this is the league that will showcase your talent I got a call from the Steelers and they said we already have Terry Bradshaw we have other quarterbacks but you come here coach no like smart players he'll find a spot for you and I thought you know I want to win and I want to play with the best so I can go to Pittsburgh. Now, it was foolish because the wide receivers, Len Swan and John Stallworth were backup receivers at that point. They had 11 guys on defense that were in the Pro Bowl.

They had an all-Pro Bowl secondary. Donnie Schell was a backup safety. So people, how are you going to make a team? You know, you're going to switch positions. That's all right. They don't need you. And I said, you know what? I don't care. I want to play with the best. And I think that was just the Lord taking care of me. I ended up going there. It was unbelievable. Guys holding out. Guys got hurt. About 50 things had to happen for me to make the team, but I made it switching over to defense and I began to learn the defensive side of the ball. And so three years later, I'm a coach with the Steelers. Coach, you played with the Steelers and you mentioned that might have been the most talented team in NFL history.

When you look at it, they got two wide receivers that's in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The running back, the quarterback, the center. You got Mel Blunt, Jack Hamm, Jack Lambert, Joe Green. L.C. Greenwood could easily be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Donnie Shell, who I know you're very close with, just made the Pro Football Hall of Fame. You're talking about nine, ten guys in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Your head coach and your owner is in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Unbelievable team. And you mentioned the owner, Art Rooney Sr. That's where it started. He and his son, Dan Rooney, put together an organization. This is how we're going to be. We're going to be first class. We're going to be family atmosphere. And we're going to be we're going to be first class we're going to be family atmosphere and we're going to find good players 1969 they hired chuck no but in 1969 they also did something that was kind of unheard of at the time there was a sports writer for the black newspaper the pittsburgh courier that they hired bill nunn they hired him as a scout. And so all of a sudden, he's going to Alabama A&M. And he's going to Florida A&M. Southern. And he's going to Southern and Savannah State.

Melanies to shore, Bethune, yes. Yep. And so all of a sudden, we've got these guys, Frank Lewis and Glenn Edwards and Mel Blunt and Donnie Shell and John Stallworth that people weren't looking at at the time. So now you get a great coach and you supply this extra injection of talent. And Coach Knoll put it together, and it was a great atmosphere. It really was. And I learned a lot about being a man.

I learned about football, and I learned about how to really embrace the city. And that's what Mr. Rooney said. When you came there, hey, you're a Pittsburgh Steeler, but it's not just on the football field. You're a Pittsburgher all the way. And you got to embrace the city. And I learned so much in that organization. Coach, I would be remiss if I didn't say this.

There was a game in which you filled in for Terry Bradshaw. He broke his wrist. Mike Krusecheck, I think I'm pronouncing that, separated his shoulder. So you went in and you played quarterback. You had eight attempts, three completions, 43 yards, two interceptions, and a fumble. It's safe to say your QBR would have been pretty bad, Coach. Very bad.

Very bad. But I still look back on that moment, Shannon, and I'm thinking just what you mentioned. I'm playing safety. I get my first interception in the NFL in the first quarter. I said, man, this is going to be a big day for me. I got one already in the first quarter. Brad Shaw gets hurt, breaks his wrist.

Mike Cruzette gets hurt at the end of the third quarter. And all of a sudden, I'm in the game. I'm calling the signals signals telling Mike Webster the snap count handing the ball off to Frank O'Hara's throwing passes to Lynn Swan and John Stallworth and I'm like are you kidding me but the biggest thing now the next next day I'm back at home have my day off and relaxing and coach Noel's secretary calls and she says hey you got to come in for the quarterback meeting so i go in and coach no we had drafted another quarterback guy named cliff stout drafted him in the fifth round and coach noel says bradshaw's getting x-rayed if he's got a

broken wrist he can't play mike kruzek is definitely out broken wrist, he can't play. Mike Kruzek is definitely out. If Bradshaw can't play, you're going to be the quarterback. And I'm thinking to myself, what? Now we drafted somebody. I'm not, my skill set doesn't fit, but we got to win a game and you're going to put me in. So I'm in the quarterback meetings all week telling my boys we're playing on Monday night the next week. Hey, watch, I might be the quarterback.

You can't believe this. I might be quarterbacking on Monday night. Bradshaw makes one of those miracle recoveries, comes back, plays the game. But you know what? That was enough for me, for Coach Knoll to say, I got confidence. You haven't practiced one minute at quarterback, but I got confidence to put you in the game and do it. That told me, you know what? If if I had had a chance I could have done this coach you only you played one year um with the Steelers you win the Super Bowl after they released it did you think about going somewhere else and playing or was it were you driven to be a coach or did coach no talk you into coaching no I actually I got traded

after our Super Bowl year I got traded to the San Francisco 49ers. It was Bill Walsh's first year. And it was just another way of the Lord taking care of me. They were bad though, coach. Oh, we're terrible. We're awful. But that was the beauty of it. I started out, played offense my whole life.

I go to the Steelers and play with a great defense and learn from a great defensive coach and a championship deal. We're already a good team. Now I go and play for another Hall of Fame coach, but in his first year, trying to put it together. And so I get to see Bill Walsh's system and Coach Knoll's system,

get to put the two of them together. I think through things, played offense, playing defense. Well, now I get traded again by the Giants, or excuse me, by the 49ers to the Giants. I got traded for Ray Rhodes, actually. So Ray goes to San Francisco. I go to the Giants. And I said, you know, I'm not going to just keep bouncing around the league and, you know, all of that. So then Coach Noel calls me and says, you have communication skills. You're smart. I think you could be a good coach. At that time, there were only 10 African-American coaches in the whole NFL.

So there was no role models and, oh, yeah, it's like this. I said, really, you think I can be a good coach? He said, I think you could. He put me on the staff when I was 25 years old. And that's when I got started. So that's when the – but it strikes me, so how similar or dissimilar was Coach Knoll's style compared to Coach Walsh's style?

Very dissimilar. Coach Knoll said, you know what, we're going to line up in one defense. We're going to line up in one offensive formation. We're not going to go in motion. We're going to out-execute you. We're going to line up in one defense. We're going to line up in one offensive formation. We're not going to go in motion. We're going to out-execute you. We're going to out-hit you. And we don't care if you know what we're doing. I go to play for Bill Walsh and it's all match-ups. We're going to do this. We're going to put this guy in. He's going to run these plays. We're going to disguise this. Find a weak link. But the thing about it, they were both fundamentally sound. They both really put a lot on their players to handle things. And they both had a great belief in what they did. Coach Knowles

started out one and 13 his first year, but he didn't let anybody change his mind about what they're going to do. Coach Walsh, we were two and 14 his first year, but I'm not going to change. I believe in it. So when I became the head coach of the Bucks and we started out one and eight, I had that as a background. Don't change. Don't give up on things. Don't let people tell you all to do it this way. Stay with what you believe in. And it was a great lesson that I learned from both of them. Coach, are you surprised you got traded because you led the team in

interceptions? I mean, six interceptions, most times will get you to the Pro Bowl. I was shocked. Yeah, really. We were coming off a Super Bowl. I'd led the team in interceptions. We had a lot of chemistry, but we just had so many good players then. And we drafted a couple of corners and Coach Knoll just felt like, you know, I can use some of these corners and we'll be better off. So it was one of those things. But again, I always looked at it like I think it was the Lord kind of taking me out of my comfort zone, putting me in a place where I could learn a little bit more because eventually I was going to be a coach. I was never going to

be a great player. But going through that San Francisco situation and learning how Eddie DiBarlo built a winning organization and Bill Wh, winning situation, it really helped me down the road. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news, previews, recaps, and analysis delivered straight to your podcast feed by the time you get your coffee. No dumb hot takes here, just smart hot takes. We'll talk

every single game, every single week, but I can't do it alone, so I'm bringing in the big guns from NFL media. That's Patrick Claiborne, Steve Weiss, Nick Shook, Jordan Rodrigue from The Athletic, and of course, Colleen Wolfe. This is their window right now. This is their Super Bowl window.

Why would they trade him away? Because he would be a pivotal part of them winning that Super Bowl window. Why would they trade him away? Because he would be a pivotal part of them winning that Super Bowl. I don't know why, Colleen. Catch the podcast, the NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal every day. Subscribe today and you'll immediately be smarter and funnier than your friends. And who doesn't want that? Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Coach, you beat, I mean, there was something about the matchup between the Steelers and the Cowboys,

and it might have been a couple years earlier where they said it was the greatest collection of talent. If I'm not mistaken, it was about 16 or 17 Hall of Famers on the field at a given time. And there haven't been that many before or since. What was it like to be on the field and you're playing the Cowboys with that star study? You got Roger Stalbeck. You got Tony Dorsett. You got all those, you know, Tony Hill, Drew Pearson. I mean, they're loaded on offense and defense

as well as you guys are. Yeah. No, it was one of those just unbelievable situation where you kind of know it's going to come down to that and we're going to play these guys and neither side was intimidated right and you knew they were going to be great games and we enjoyed playing against them they enjoyed playing against us and yeah you're right you're out there and it's it's mel blunt coveringunt covering Drew Pearson and it's, you know, Randy White going against John Cole and it's one after another,

after another and Tony Dorsett running inside against Jack Lambert. And it was just, when I wasn't in the game, I was just right on the sidelines just watching what is happening out there. And it was fascinating. But it was two teams that really believed in themselves and believed in their style of play. And there was great players all over the field.

Coach, when you got traded to San Francisco, Joe Montana was the quarterback. And also on that roster, people might not know this, he's an infamy now, but he was an all-time great player, OJ Simpson. Yes. Obviously, he wasn't the OJ from Buffalo. But what do you remember about that year? It was Coach Walsh trying to rebuild a franchise, a proud franchise that was struggling.

They had traded for OJ in his later years, and OJ was the star. The aura was there. We'd have police escorts. We had guards at the hotel. I'm not kidding you. I was in a hotel room, OJ's room, playing cards with Al Collings, OJ, and a couple of other guys, and a guy literally broke the window in the hotel trying to get OJ's autograph. And I'm like, what?

But that's the star power he has. Coach, people don't believe, because I think the thing is what transpired after football. People don't realize that if you played running back and you played in the 70s you wanted to be oj simpson yeah i came up you wanted to get you wanted to get 32 if you got you got 32 there were guys playing wide receiver offensive line i'm like bro you're not a running back you can't get 32 everybody wanted 32 speak to what OJ was in the 70s at that position he's what Patrick Mahomes

what Aaron Rodgers he was that he was and not only on the field but off the field just kind of that star power coming from USC he'd been in the movies

when I got out there the first thing I tell me about being in the movies tell me about being with Elizabeth Taylor he'd tell you all the stories but you mentioned all those great players on the Pittsburgh defense that was the only guy I ever saw intimidate those guys when we would have Buffalo week they would be on you as a young guy man you can't be off your read at all you got to be right there when I hit this and spill the ball you better be there because OJ will take it to the house

you got to be on the details and that's's the way they felt about it. And that's how he was. He was the best player at that position and he could go 80 yards on any play. So you said, you know what? I'm done bouncing around. I've gotten traded from the Steelers to the 49ers, from the 49ers to the Giants, enough of this. And you say, you know what? I'm going to get into coaching. Coach, why do you think it's the good to the average players that become great coaches,

but the great players can't become great? What is it? And you see that in every sport. You see that when it comes to picking talent. Why is it that the guy that wasn't that great can pick talent, can coach better than say an all-time great can? I think sometimes it's that guy who's not super talented that has to work hard and has to do everything to just make it. Right. And you're used to working and doing the little things and trying to figure out edges. But then I think there's also something in those great players

that they can't take imperfection. Everybody asks me, is Peyton Manning, is he going to go into coaching? And I say this, I say, you know what? He would be so frustrated with that quarterback who can't memorize 60 plays and who can't check to the right check all the time. He would just, it would kill him to not be able to do some of the things that he takes for granted.

So I think that happens to some of the great players at times. They get so frustrated that, you know, Larry Bird was in Indiana when I was coaching the Colts. He was coaching the Pacers. And guys who wouldn't work hard, who didn't understand basketball, he would just, he wouldn't say anything about it. You could see it just driving him crazy when they mentally wouldn't do the things that he expected.

And what I've told people, I said, because things came, not that it came easy, they made it look easy. And so in talking to Magic johnson he's like it was frustrating to him because he could see things and he was wondering why that guy couldn't see it exactly he's not magic so but when you look at it coach you look at some of the guys that that pick the players like bill nunn he probably didn't play football but he knew how to pick Joe Green and Mel Blunt and Jack Lambert and Len Swan and Mike and Starworth. He knew that. You look at R.C. Buford.

You look at Bill Polian. Those guys didn't play. But you get guys that played and won Super Bowls, and they pick bus after bus after bus after bus. And I'm not going to go to the woods and nothing can't like you and I got, coach. Bill told me that. Bill Nunn told me that.

He said when they asked him about coming, he said, hey, I don't even, I never played football. I'm a basketball player. You know athletes. Bring athletes to us. Bring guys who are, you know heart. You know toughness. That's what we're looking for.

And that's what he went out and found. Coach, you, you were the youngest defensive coordinator in NFL history at 28. What's going through your mind when they say, okay, coach, you're going to be a D, you're going to be a DC now. I have to tell you that story, Shannon. It is so funny. I start out at 25 and i'm

coaching there and coach noel makes me the defensive backfield coach so two years later the usfl comes into existence and they're raiding the nfl they're coming after our players and coming after our coaches so we lose three coaches to the usfl and And I'm thinking, man, what is Coach Noel going to do now? All our veteran coaches are gone. I'm the only guy left on the staff. He's hiring people, but he hasn't hired a defensive coordinator. And he never does.

And so I'm thinking, am I the defensive coordinator? But he's never said that. So my wife says, well, go ask him. Just ask him. So we're at the Combine, and this year they have it down in New Orleans. This is 1984. So we're in New Orleans, and I'm about to ask him.

He says, hey, I want you to come to Preservation Hall with me tonight. I don't know what Preservation Hall is. I think it's maybe an eating place or a restaurant. So he's going to take me to dinner and tell me I'm the defensive coordinator. So I tell it's maybe an eating place or a restaurant. So he's going to take me to dinner and tell me I'm the defensive coordinator. So I tell my wife, I'm going to find out. I'm going to find out. It's this little jazz place holding the wall in New Orleans. We go there. He's watching this guy play the horn. We come back to the hotel. He said, oh, that was a great night. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for coming. I called my wife back she said why are you the defensive coordinator I said I don't know

she said you didn't ask him I said I thought he was going to tell me he didn't say anything so I finally go back get up the nerve to ask him and he said well of course you're the defensive coordinator you know more about this defense than anybody why would you not be and that was just his his mo that's the way he thought and so so he made me the DC at 28 years old. So why did you decide to leave and go to Kansas city? I went, it was, it was time for me to see a different system. Okay. And I'd been there my whole life and everything I knew was Pittsburgh Steelers football. So I went, and it was, again, another real good opportunity for me. Marty Schottenheimer, Bill Cowher with a different system,

3-4 defense, saw the way Marty did things, and I kind of learned. And the difference I saw right away, Coach Knoll believed in being precise and being efficient we went home at nine o'clock every night never spent a later night there i get to work with marty the first tuesday we're there till two in the morning my wife said where have you been i said i've been at the office and she said no i don't believe that i said i have been at the office, really. And I learned that that's the way Marty was. He was precise on everything. He wanted to be on every detail and leave no stone unturned.

So I learned that side of it. But then I found out you could mix the two, get the best of both worlds, be efficient like Coach Knoll, be on the details like Coach Schottenheimer, but trust your coaches and delegate a little bit just because you you should work smarter not harder if sometimes people can't work till four o'clock in the morning now you're just there you just wasted time fooling people yep yep yep it's don't mistake time spent for work done coach and then you go you go to minnesota where you become

the dc under Denny Green, if I'm not mistaken. Yes. And that was a blessing, Shannon. I'll tell you about that one. Denny, he wanted me to be a head coach. He wanted me to help the defense and help them win. But he tutored me for four years. You're going to get a job. And while you're the defensive coordinator here, you're going to learn. I'm going to teach you about being a head coach. And that was the best four years of my life in terms of preparation, because he let me in on things.

Hey, I'm about to make a quarterback change. Here's why I'm going to do it. You're going to be in this position sometime. Think about this. Here's what's going on in the personnel meeting. You come in and sit, even though you're just an assistant coach, you sit in the meeting with the scouts.

I want you to see the dialogue, the back and forth. He helped me so much. It's unbelievable. Is that what you do? Is that why you paid it for with Jim Caldwell, Mike Tomlin, and some of your other coaches? Absolutely. Leslie Frazier, Mike Tomlin, Herman Edwards.

He became my assistant head coach, and he was the first guy to leave lovey smith i wanted to do that with all of them because then he helped me so much i wanted to do the same thing i saw how beneficial it was hey herm you're going to be a head coach you're going to be the assistant head coach here you're going to be in on these personnel meetings you're going to be in on the draft meeting because you're going to need to know how to do this at some point you you coach johnny randall one of the two or three best defensive tackles jack del rio was a linebacker you people don't realize how talented that defensive line was henry thomas uh if i'm not mistaken i think al nova chris dolman yeah was stillman, was on that defensive line then. You had the number one defense in football.

Shannon, that was the only time I was ever discouraged in the whole process. And I had to talk to my dad and he had to get me out of the tank. 1993, we had some of those guys you mentioned, Jack Del Rio, John Randall, Hall of Famer, Chris Dolman, Hall of Famer. We lead the NFL in defense, give up the least rushing yards in 60 years.

There are seven job openings that year. I didn't get one phone call. Didn't even get a phone call that, hey, we'd like to talk to you or interview. And I'm thinking, man, seven openings, number one defense, and it doesn't happen this year. It may never happen. But I had to go back to my dad who said you know don't worry about it make the situation better go out there and work harder

the chaplain of the Vikings told me don't worry about the jobs you didn't get be the best assistant coach you can be the Lord will have a good spot for you just look forward don't look back and I had to fight through that 1993 year and then two later, I ended up getting the Buccaneers job. And lo and behold, Derrick Brooks is sitting there waiting for me. John Randall, I mean, John Lynch is waiting for me. Warren Tapp's waiting for me. So it was the right time, right place, right situation. Coach, but the thing is that sometimes,

and when I look at black coaches finally getting jobs, they get jobs, they go to Tampa, bottom field. They go to the Jets. They go to the Arizona Cardinals. With the exception of Mike Tomlin going to the Steelers, that's normally what happens. They don't inherit teams that we think of that are normally winners. How frustrating was like, now when I had this great defense and all these jobs opening, some of them better than what Tampa, I didn't get a call. Now y'all want me to go turn around Tampa. They've been terrible for umpteen since they came into

existence. Well, you kind of had to just expect that. It was 14 straight losing seasons and i was really the third choice they wanted jimmy johnson he went to miami they wanted steve spurrier he was the head coach in florida then he said i'm staying at florida so now they had to go to the second tier of coaches but i said you know what that's all right with the talent that's here if i can change this culture around if we can start to think like winners and act like winners, we're going to be okay.

And people were telling me, oh, don't go to Tampa. It's a graveyard for coaches. You'll ruin your career. But it was the right spot for me at the right time. What was the toughest obstacle you had to overcome when you got to Tampa? The mentality, the losing mentality, players thinking, hey, we're not going to win

anyway, so I better just get my individual stats, right? I better do things so I can make money. But going to them and saying, you know what? If we turn this around mentally, if we come together, if we work at it, we're going to be okay. Hardy Nickerson was our captain. He was a free agent. I had to talk him into staying. Hey, and fortunately he knew me. I had coached him in Pittsburgh. Hardy, we're going to put this in. We're going to turn it around like the Steelers stay. We need you to stay because if you go, it's just going to keep the revolving door open. Let's do something special. And fortunately he took the challenge and stayed there, but convincing people we could win and getting that winning mentality, that was definitely the toughest thing. Coach, when you look at some of the guys,

you had Rondé Barber, Warwick Dunn. I mean, Rondé is going to be up for the Hall of Fame. You got Sam Brooks is in the Hall of Fame. John Lynch is coming up for the Hall of Fame. When you look at and what you were able to do from 97 to 2001, you were in the playoffs and you went to the NFC championship game. What is the reason you think you weren't were able to do from 97 to 2001, you were in the playoffs and you went to the NFC championship game. What is the reason you think you weren't quite able to get over the hump? We just needed a little more time and we kind of left our blueprint. We got impatient. When we, when I took the job, we talked about, let's, let's develop ourselves into a good team that competes every year.

That was our goal. And we got there and we did that. And then I think our ownership, well, gosh, we have all these players. We should have won a Super Bowl, like winning Super Bowls is easy. We should have won two or three. Well, we didn't quite get there, but if we hang in there and we keep our plan, we'll be okay. I think we got a little spoiled. We went from 14 straight losing seasons to, oh, we're in the playoffs every year. Well, that's not really good enough. Right. We got to get over the hump.

We got to do this. So it was disappointing. And then the very next year, they won it. John Gruden did a tremendous job, came in, reshaped the offense. They had a great year, and they won it, but didn't have the consistency from then on out. And I ended up going to Indianapolis. And again, that was kind of a blessing to get a Hall of Fame quarterback.

Do you believe had you had been given some more time in Tampa, you would have won a championship in Tampa? I absolutely think we would have. We were close and we could have gotten it done. We had a great group there, but that's not the way it worked out. So like my dad would always tell me, you have to look forward and make the situation better.

Don't look back. Don't complain about it. Look forward and do better there. Coach, what were your emotions after watching John Gruden win a title with the team you had constructed? It's almost watching your ex-girlfriend go to the prom. You supposed to go to the prom with me and now you going with that joker.

It was definitely bittersweet. You have all those guys that you coached and you want to see them do well. And we had talked about, you know, in my first meeting with Warren Sapp and Brooks and Lynch and Donny Abraham and Rondé Barber, hey, we want to do this. Mike Allstott.

And to see those guys hoist that trophy, it was great. But then the bitterness of not being there. So it was, I was happy for them. And I was sad that I wasn't there with them. A lot of people have compared your situation and Mark Jackson's situation. Because it's like he laid the groundwork for what's going on with Steph, Clay, and Draymond. Steve Kerr comes in, builds on that,

wins the championship, wins several others once they add KD. Are the situations similar? I guess you could look at it. You know, Golden State hadn't been winning. They got going and the ownership felt like, well, maybe Mark's not the guy to take us to that next level. Same thing in Tampa. But I guess my hope was always to

make the situation better, leave it in better shape than when I got there. So I left Tampa. The next year they went to Super Bowl. I was in Indianapolis seven years. Jim Caldwell took over for me. The next year, the cover wasn't bare. They go to the Super Bowl, don't win it, but they get there. So I felt like I left two organizations in better shape than when I inherited them. So that was my goal and my objective. Okay, you get the call, head coaching opportunity

for the Indianapolis Colts. What's going through your mind when you know what they have in Indy? They got the one position that in order for you to win, you must have. No, it was really unbelievable for me. Jim Irsay said, hey, we've got our offense in place. We've got a franchise quarterback. We need you to come put the defense together. But more than that, lead the team.

And he told me, he said, I'm looking for that consistency that Pittsburgh had. That's what I'm looking for. So it was really, I was excited. And then after talking to Peyton and he said, hey, I want to be coached. I want to win. I want to help just make this a great franchise. I just knew we were going to be in good shape. How easy or how difficult is it to coach a player like Peyton?

It's easy in this way. He wants to be great, and he wants you to tell him how to be great. The difficult part of coaching him was his expectation he would come in every day with a yellow legal pad we need to do this this this and you'd have to be able to say okay we can do two of these things the other eight we can't do just yet because you might be smart enough to handle it but we've got 53 other guys that you know we've got to slow down a little bit. And he always was, you know, hey, we can do this.

We can do this better. And you love that, but you had to kind of temper it at times. Was it hard coaching a great player that's great, knows he's great, but you're like, yeah, Peyton, you're great, but I don't have 10 other Peyton Manning's to go along with you. That can be the toughest thing sometimes. He would see, especially on offense,

he would see something that another team ran against our opponent. We ought to put this in. I know it'll work. Yeah, we could put it in, but everybody's not going to pick it up as fast as you are. So let's work on the plays that we already have.

So playing the quarterback position, obviously you were a quarterback. You played in a major college being a defensive coordinator, because I think that's where probably you helped Peyton the most because you get an opportunity to say, well, Peyton, if you came out in this formation in this area of the field, in this situation, this is the coverage that I would probably play against you. And if you did this, this would be my retort to what you're doing. Talk to us about you sitting down with Peyton,

going over game plans of what he wanted to do and what you were expecting from the opposing defense. Yeah, we'd have a lot of those kind of conversations. And the other unique thing is our offensive coordinator, Tom Moore, was my offensive coordinator in college. We had the same system. No huddle offense. The quarterback ran everything at the line of scrimmage.

So I played in that system. And I knew it. But then I would come, and on Fridays, I would be the defensive coordinator for the scout team. So I would throw up the defenses and say, and I had the advantage. I knew, I had the script. I knew what to play.

So I could say, all right, we're going to do this. We'll see if he can handle this. Blitz over here would wreck this play. We'll do this. And I try to keep him sharp that way. They might do these kinds of things, but we would have those conversations. What do you think the defense will do

to take away Marvin today? What are they going to do? And I would say would say well here's their options based on their personnel they might try to do this they might try to do this well what is the weakness if they do that well here's where we can hit them and i used to love to have those kind of conversations with them coach you seem so stoic on the sideline i don't think i've ever in all the years that i've played against you i've watched. I don't think I've ever, in all the years that I've played against you, I've watched you. I don't think I've ever seen you throw your hat. I don't ever see you throw up your hands.

I know you don't swear, so I've never seen you do that. How were you able, in a chaotic environment, because you know what the sidelines are and you know the swing and the ebbs and flows of a ball game, how are you able to stay so calm? Well, two things that helped me. Number one, when I played, if I made a mistake, I didn't need a coach to yell at me and tell me I made a mistake.

I knew what I did wrong. What I needed was somebody to tell me what I should do to do it right. So I always had that in mind. Players aren't trying to mess up on purpose. So what can I do to help that guy do it better the next time? And then the second thing, if something would go wrong with a bad call, with a fumble, with a problem, it's already bad. What can we do to make it better?

Let's think about the next play. That was always my mentality. Coach, you had some classic battles. And for our younger viewers, I don't know if they realize this, but the Indianapolis Colts used to be in the AFC East, along with the New England Patriots. So you had that matchup, Brady Belichick and Dungy Payton against for two games every year.

And normally it was going to determine who got home field advantage throughout. So what's your mindset knowing that probably the winner of this division was probably more times than not going to have home field throughout the playoffs and the road to the Super Bowl was going to come through the others' building? Yep. No, that started the rivalry and then by time I got there we had they had realigned and we went into the AFC South so we weren't playing those guys twice a year we're only playing them once but you're exactly right we knew when we played them whoever won that game was going to have the home game in the playoff. So that just amped it up even more.

So it was always that circle game on our schedule. Here's the Patriots week four. Here's the Patriots week 10. Here's the Patriots week 12. That's the game we got to zero in on because if we win that one, that playoff game is going to be there. And we finally got it in 2006. We got the home game in indianapolis

and that's the one we got to the super bowl you know what happened with spy gate that you know and and they were stealing signals and the nfl said well look you can take signals but you just need to be from an elevated platform not field level so did you ever fully trust them knowing that they because i'm not so sure coach had they been caught, they would have ever stopped. Well, that was not a well kept secret. We knew that for a long time before it ever came out. Players that had left New England kind of tip people off.

So that was something they were doing for a long time. We had always adjusted and gone to wristbands and different things because we, you know, you didn't want that to happen, but that, that was well, I shouldn't say well documented, but a lot of people knew about that before it actually came out. Coach, but if you think about it, let's just say you and I, okay, I'm, I'm you and I, let's just say we're in the seedy business. We're bank robbers. And I say, coach, you know what, coach? I want to go on the straight and narrow. I've been doing this for too long. I've had an epiphany that God want me to do the right thing. Now, I'm not going

to do any more bank robbing. Now, you can go ahead and continue to do that if you want to, but just don't rob my bank. You can rob all the other banks and I won't call the FBI on you, but just don't hit mine. You tell me, screw you. I will hit your bank anyway. Do I have any other choice than to turn you in? Well, I think that's what happened with Spygate when their coaches went to the Jets

and they said, I'm not going to lose because you're doing something against the rules. So I think you're right. But, you know, everybody tries to get signals. And that wasn't the crime in the whole thing. I mean, you watch, you watch the other side. And if you can catch a signal, you're going to do that. But you couldn't record them.

You got memos every year. You cannot record with video. You can't do that. From the field level. From the field level. Correct. Correct. You cannot do it.

And so that was the thing. They were good at it. And you just had to. Coach, I remember when I played, we would try to get the TV copy. Because you wanted to hear what the defense was saying. So if you could pick up certain things. I remember playing the Chargers, and they had certain calls. They would go to Reno.

They would go to Vegas, which means they would go to cover two. Okay, we had heard that so much, and every time they checked, we had the perfect check that I ended up blitzing them. Okay, I get that. But if the NFL says you can fish in the lake but just not on this side right well don't do it right right right absolutely and that's that's what I think a lot of people didn't understand well everybody does that everybody does try to do that we listen to the TV copies and you have scouts that just do

that and go over things but if they say you can't do it this way, you got to abide by the rules. Right. Coach, let's go to Superbowl 41. You're the first, you and Lovey. Lovey was on your staff. You helped him. You prepare and get a, get a job. So I'm, help me understand. Okay. It's got to be bittersweet because you're like, okay, one of us is going to be the first Black to win the Super Bowl.

That's going to – I really – you know what, Lovey, I want you – I'm happy for you, Lovey, but I really want to be the first. The second one is not going to get the parade. He's not going to get the adulation that the first guy got. So I'm just going – Lovey, oh, good job, Lovey, good luck. I'm trying to beat your eyes job, Lovey. Good luck. I'm trying to beat your eyes in, Lovey. I hate to tell you this.

No, you're absolutely right. I remember watching Doug Williams. I was an assistant coach in Pittsburgh when they won. I wanted Doug to win that Super Bowl, and they won it, and you just had so much pride, and you knew the history involved. So here we are in 2006, and you feel like this is going to be history. And I want our guys to be part of it. And I want to make that history.

And Lovey will get his next year. Coach, I want to go back to the AFC Championship game. You're in your building. This is what you wanted. You beat them early in the year, which forced them to come to you, come to the RCA Dome. I think that's the name of it. It might have been Lucas Oil. It's Lucas Oil. But you forced them to come to you. Come to the RCA Dome. I think that's the name of it. It might have been Lucas Oil. It may have been Lucas Oil. But you forced them to come to you. You're down 21-3. What's going through your mind?

I can't believe this is happening again. How could we be playing so bad against the Patriots? We get a field goal right before the end of the half. Now it's 21-6. And you'll remember this. We're walking in to the locker room you guys are doing the halftime James Brown says no team has ever come back for more than 10 points down in a championship game and it's on our tv I'm saying why can't CBS why can't you guys just wait till we get in the locker room to say that how could you say that now but our guys hung in there and they said, you know what, we've just got to start playing better.

It's not that they're outplaying us. We're making mistakes. So we get the ball, the second half kickoff. If we can score and make it a one-score game, I would be back in it. That's exactly what happened. But our guys, tremendous poise and confidence to just fight back.

But at that moment, I was thinking, how could we play so bad in the first half? Okay, you finally get the lead. You get the two point. So now they need a touchdown, not a field goal to beat you or tie you. They need a touchdown. So Tom Brady, you know what he's already done

at that point in time. He has three Super Bowls on his resume. So what's going through your mind? What's the emotion? What are you feeling at that moment? When Joseph Adai scored and Adam kicked that extra point and put us up four, I said, we're going to win this game. No way is our defense going to let them go down in one minute

and score a touchdown. I had total confidence at that point. As great as Brady is, I just knew time and everything was going to be difficult. And they edged it down the field, got to midfield, but it was just he had to try to make

a big play. And Marlon Jackson came up with the game winner. Now, at that moment, that's when everything broke loose for me. When Marlon intercepted that ball, I said, man, I cannot believe we're going to the game winner. Now, at that moment, that's when everything broke loose for me. When Marlon intercepted that ball, I said, man, I cannot believe it. We're going to the Super Bowl. And then you get to the Super Bowl.

Now, Coach, I don't know what you were thinking that you talked to Adam Vinatieri to put this ball in the air to Devin Hester. What were you thinking? It was all on me, Shannon. For two weeks, we talked about not letting Devin Hester touch the ball. We're going to kick it in the corners.

We're going to squib it. We're going to punt it out of bounds. This man is the best threat they have. We can't let him touch the ball. Our chapel speaker before the game gives the chapel message on David and Goliath. And he says, you know how David beat Goliath? Because he wasn't afraid of him. He was one of the few that went right at him. I started thinking, and we can't be afraid of Devin Hester.

We got to be like David. We got to go right. We're going to kick the ball right to him. When we pound him, Goliath's going to go down. They're going to know we mean business. So I changed up right then. I said, I hope we lose the toss. We're going to know we mean business. So I changed up right then. I said, I hope we lose the toss. We're going to kick off with them. You guys pound Devin Hester. That'll set the tone. 12 seconds later, he's in the other end zone. Everybody's looking at me like, what is wrong with our coach? Coach, you let the chaplain gas you up to kick that ball to Devin Hester after two weeks of saying he is not touching the football. He's not going to impact this ball game.

And after I told him the story, he said, oh, you got the wrong message from it. The message was, you got to know where the weak spot is. He hit it right between the eyes. You got to go for the weak spot. So I said, I wish you'd explain the message a little better to me. Coach, as time is winding down on the clock

and you realize, man, we're going to do this. We're going to win the Super Bowl. And I'm going to be, this is going to be one of the more memorable Super Bowls in NFL history. Just like when Doug won. Now you've won. What's going through your mind as time is running down, the confetti starts to come down. It's going through your mind as time is running down, the confetti starts to

come down. It's been raining basically the whole day. What's going through your mind at that moment? I'm thinking about my dad and walking and not taking the bus and teaching at a segregated school. I'm thinking about those 10 African-American assistant coaches who never had a chance to become the head coach. I'm thinking about my mom and dad just telling me, don't let anybody else define you. Don't give up. And I felt like I was representing all of them. And then I thought about Jim Irsay. He gave me a chance. He wanted me to coach his team. And I was just so grateful at that moment. And I just, all the emotion came out and it was just, it was a great moment. And I said, man, these guys did it. They did it. Coach, in 2008, you became the first coach to defeat all 32 teams. Why'd you walk away after the season? I started coaching when I was 25.

So I'd had a 28-year career. My wife and my family have made all the sacrifices that coaches' families have to make. I just felt like I owed them some time. And I wanted Jim Caldwell. I knew I was going to step down at some point. I knew Jim Caldwell was going to replace me. I wanted Jim to have a team that was still in the prime.

I didn't want him to come in when we were on the downhill side. So I just felt like it was the proper time. I did what I wanted. My family felt good about it. Jim took the team to the Super Bowl the next year, so I really felt it was proper timing. You mentioned Jim Caldwell, and obviously, Peyton gets the injury. Things don't go according to plan. Jim Irsay cleans house. He removes him. Bill Pullian brings in a new staff. Jim gets a job at Detroit, and somehow,

unceremoniously, he loses the job after four seasons goes to two Super Bowls. He's nine and seven. Do you think he was released unfairly? And do you think he deserves a second chance? Absolutely. I heard Mrs. Ford's press conference when she made a switch in Detroit. And she said, we've had the best three-year record in the last 50 years of any Lions team.

And our community is different. Our locker room is different. He's made an impact. We've got better young men. We've got all this, but we're going to go in another direction. What? This doesn't make sense. Well, they did go in another direction, down.

Right. And so it didn't make sense. Sometimes that happens. But it kind't make sense sometimes that happens but it kind of reminded me of when i was in in tampa and jim had taken them to the playoffs once on the cusp of the playoffs and they're saying well it's just not quite good enough um sometimes you have to stay the course and and i wish they would have i I wish they had. Coach, when I talk about your coaching tree, when I talk about Lovey, who was your linebacker coach in Tampa,

what's the first thing that goes through your mind when I mentioned Lovey Smith? Cool, calm, and collected. Mike Tomlin. Unbelievable demeanor. He came to me as a 29-year-old. He's in the room. He's coaching John Lynch and Rondé Barber,

and he's got total control of the room, very confident without being cocky. I knew he was going to be a superstar. Jim Caldwell, whose demeanor reminds me most of you. Tremendous quarterback coach. People don't always want to look at this. Peyton Manning was a 500 player and a very good quarterback when Jim Caldwell got there. He turned into a 50 touchdown, nine interception Hall of Fame quarterback after Jim Caldwell got there. He did the same thing with Matthew Stafford.

He develops quarterbacks. Herm Edwards. Energy. Unbelievable energy. Never give up. Miracle in the Meadowlands. That's him every day. It doesn't matter if we're down with one second left,

we still got a chance. And he was just tremendous. Of all the guys that I've mentioned, Mike Tomlin seems to be the most opposite of you. Very matter of fact, although Herm is very animated, Lovey and Jim, their personality kind of reminds me most of you. Where Mike is totally opposite of you, and Herm is just a ball of energy. Yeah, all the guys are a little bit different,

but that's one thing I learned from Coach Knoll. You can't hire everybody the same. You've got to have people use their strengths, and don't look for everybody to be just like you. And so everybody was a little different. Leslie Frazier worked with me. He's tremendous. Mike Shula, Rod Marinelli. I've just been blessed to be around a lot of good people that I tried to help them develop and utilize their strengths. But coach, if you look at it, a lot of times when coaches get their first job, they normally hire people that's already been coaches before.

And you seem to be more willing to give guys an opportunity. Okay, this is my first chance of being a head coach. Hey, I'm going to give you your opportunity. And you've hired a lot of minorities and was criticized for it. Absolutely was. My first staff, people are saying, who is this? And where's our experience? We've got all these.

But I made a conscious decision, Shannon. I wanted to give some guys their first chance in the NFL. Right. But the other thing I wanted, I wanted teachers. So I talked to our college scouts when I first got to Tampa. I'm looking for some college coaches to give me some great teachers. I didn't know Lovie Smith. I didn't know Rod Marinelli.

I knew Herm Edwards. I knew he was a teacher. I didn't know Mike Tomlin. But our scouts said, you're talking about people who put out polished professional players as college players. These guys can teach. That's what I wanted. It's going to be hard to have another season in which Eric Bien-Ami is not a head coach

when you look at the success that they're having in Kansas City and you look at the success that Mahomes is having in Kansas City. You look at Eric Bien-nium, Leslie Frazier, some of these other guys that deserve an opportunity. Coach, how, and I understand it's hard to tell a man that's worth, a man or a woman that's worth one, two, five, $10 billion, who they should hire. But we're saying at least give, let them into the room

and have the conversation. Yeah, my frustration with some of these owners, they really don't know what they want. And so they have to have someone else tell them. And that someone else is the media or it's the fans or it's some popularity contest or it's, well, gosh, this formula won. So I'll get that. I'll get this young 29 year old quarterback coach that's what's going to win for us and you say no don't do that figure out what you want get a leader and uh let let that be who you go after and you know what if you do that there are some african americans who can do that who can can lead and put offenses together, put defenses together.

So just be yourself, figure it out, you know, and I get frustrated. I don't want to see the same old thing because it hurts the NFL. I go back to this. There was a time when Warren Moon's skill set didn't fit the NFL. Tony Dunsey's skill set as a quarterback didn't fit the NFL. If we would have stayed in that mentality, we wouldn't have Patrick Mahomes and Deshaun Watson and Russell Wilson out, and the NFL wouldn't be as good.

So there's a time where you think, well, Eric Bien-Ami, maybe his skill set doesn't fit. No, you know, if we give Eric Bien-Ami a chance, you might see something different that the NFL hasn't seen, and it might just make us better. Because, excuse me, Coach Dungeon, you remember when Mike Tomlin got the job at Pittsburgh, they thought the sky was falling.

You hired, you had Ken Wivenhunt, you had Bruce Aaron, you had Dick LeBeau, you got those guys on the staff, and you mean to tell me you hired a guy his first job and he's what was coach Tomlin 34 34 years old yeah and Dan Rooney Dan Rooney said I know what I'm looking for and Mike Tomlin is it so the case closed but there's so many owners that don't have that they would have have wilted. Oh yeah, you're right. I can't do that because of the way some people are going to react. And Dan said, no, you know what?

He's just like Bill Carroll was when I hired him. And he's just like Chuck Noll was when I hired him. And all you all complained about that too. So we're on good grounds. Well, they should have known. If you look at the Steelers history history, when they hired Chuck Knoll, they normally go outside. They don't normally stay within the staff.

They went outside and got Coach Cowher. So they were probably going to go outside and get Mike Tomlin. And you know what the other thing is, Shannon? Dan's formula. He said, we're Pittsburgh. It's cold weather. We need defense. It's cold weather. We need defense.

It's blue collar. We need to be physical. And I want a young guy. I want to hire a coach for 20 years. So that's my formula. Young, defensive, good communicator. So yeah, Bruce Ahrens can be tremendous. And he's on my staff.

But you know what? He doesn't fit my formula. Right. I'm going to find what, what I'm looking for. I'm going to find my blueprint because he knew what he wanted. And that's the thing. Most of these owners don't know what they want. The one thing about the Steelers, not only do they know what they want, they're not swayed by media or fans. A lot of owners are swayed by the media, what some columnists or what some journalists is going to write or what the fans,

boo, we want this, we want that. But the Roonies have been at this for a long time. There's a reason why they've only had three coaches since 1969. That's not an accident. Absolutely. It's the thought process. We hire someone and we stick behind them. Chuck Noll was 1 and 13 his first year dan rooney said you know what we got the right guy i saw how he responded under pressure don't worry about that we've got the right guy bill cower had a couple down years you know we've got the right guy you know i'm gonna give him a contract extension just to let you know that you got the right guy. Yeah. Yep.

And that's important. One of the things that help minorities, not only coaching, but front office and other position is the Rooney rule. Dan Rooney, your former boss. Do you believe it's been a success? And what could they do to give it even more teeth? It hasn't really been a success because they haven't followed Dan's plan. Dan's plan was just that, hey, if I'm the owner, I have a blueprint of what I want. And then once I get that blueprint, I go out and look for those type of people. And I

make sure I hire a couple of minority, I mean, I interview minority candidates that fit my blueprint. That's the spirit of the law. What they did was just follow the letter of the law. Hey, I might have somebody I want to get hire an offensive coach because I got to work with this young quarterback, but I'll interview Leslie Frazier, defensive coordinator, just to satisfy the rule. Right. I don't really want that. Correct. But I satisfy the rule. Instead of saying, no, who's the best minority offensive mind out there? Because that's what I want. And so I think you can't change people's heart.

You can't make them kind of follow the spirit of the rule. But if we could just get people to dial in on what they want in their blueprint and then look at the best candidates, I think we'd be much better off. Do you believe that we have enough minorities on the offensive side of the football? Because it seems that a lot of the up-and-coming black, the minorities on the defensive side of the football, do we have enough in that area? We do. I don't believe in this pipeline is empty.

What they're trying to tell us. Yes, that there's no coaches out there. There's some great coaches. Pep Hamilton is a great coach and should be a head coach. Pep Hamilton took that offense to Indianapolis when Andrew Luck was there, and he was on his way to being Sean McVay. And then Andrew Luck retires, gets hurt and retires. So now all of a sudden, Pep Hamilton doesn't know any football.

Well, that's ludicrous. But we have a lot of people like that in the pipeline, on the offensive side, that if we gave them an opportunity, they would be fine. There's nothing wrong. Eric Bien-Ami is in the pipeline. And Eric Bien-Ami has done everything that Matt Nagy did. He's done everything that Doug Peterson did. He's done everything that all of Andy Reid's assistants have done.

Well, all of a sudden now. He's got to get a head coaching job. Yeah. Well, he doesn't call the plays. Well, wait a minute. Matt Nagy didn job. Yeah. Well, he doesn't call the plays. Well, wait a minute. Matt Nagy didn't call the plays. Doug Peterson didn't call the plays. He did not.

Frank Reich didn't call the plays, but they were good coaches. They were smart coaches. Well, now all of a sudden, Eric Bien-Ami doesn't call the plays. Don't tell me about the pipeline. Coach, look, for me, I think you are such a good person. Is that if something goes wrong, I feel like the NFL reaches out and you can co-sign it and make it okay. And I've heard you say and turn the other cheek. And I think it has a lot to do because what you said your father instilled in you at a very young age okay there was a problem but okay let's not talk about the problem

let's see how we're going to solve it and how we're going to make it better do you think that helps the problem helps the cause when you turn the other cheek because more times than not people just keep treating you the same way well you have to have people who want to get better and want to improve. And that's the thing I always did with my players. I didn't really believe in finding players. Hey, if we've got a problem, I'm going to tell you what's wrong. And if you want to play and be a great player, we're going to do it this way. And most of the time, players want to get better.

So they would do it. But if you have a player that just says, okay, coach didn't find me, so I'm going to keep doing this. My only alternative at that point is to get rid of the player. You don't fit in our system. Well, you've got to have these owners. You've got to have people who want to make the situation better. If they don't, you're right. No matter what you do, they're going to keep doing the same thing.

I think it came out, Coach, that you're on the search committee with the Houston Texans, along with a few others, and looking for a coach and a general manager. How's that process and how did it go? Who reached out to you? Because like I said, Coach,

you're valued. Your word carries weight. So when you put your name behind something, it means something. If somebody said, Coach, you're valued. Your word carries weight. So when you put your name behind something, it means something. If somebody said, well, Tony Dungeon says he's an okay guy, well, Tony says he's okay. He okay. Yeah, I don't actually know how that happened. We were in the same division against Houston.

Had a lot of back and forth against them. Cal McNair reached out to me and said, and I'm of back and forth against them. Cal McNair reached out to me and said, and I'm not actually on the search committee. He just wants me to help them develop a philosophy of how they should search. And that's what this conversation that we're having now, that's the same conversation I had with him. Mr. McNair, you've got to get a blueprint.

You have to decide what you want. And then once you do, I can help you find some guys that fit that and then you figure out who's best for you. But I can't tell you, oh, hire this guy, hire that guy. This guy is going to be the best for you because I don't know what you want. Coach, you got the honor bestowed going into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

You have some players in there with you, Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp, Marvin Harrison. Peyton comes in this year. pro football hall of fame you have some players in there with you derrick brooks uh warren sapp uh marvin harrison payton comes in this year uh there's a chance edgar and james you're gonna have a few what was the experience like what's going through your mind you're like an undrafted guy that switched positions is in the pro football hall of fame the football heaven that's i mean there there is no high. This is the football heaven. Of all 25,000 men, there's 350 that have a gold jacket.

It was so unbelievable and so unexpected. You know, as a little kid, you dream things. I dreamed about making it in the NFL. I dreamed about scoring the winning touchdown in the Super Bowl. Never dreamed about being in the Hall of Fame. No, you dream about the Hall of Fame. No, you don't. And then especially when you get traded a couple times

and cut, you don't think about it. As a young 25-year-old coach, I was hoping to, you know, be part of the league for a few years. And then you dream about being a head coach. But never in my wildest imagination dreamed of being in the NFL's uh hall of fame so when it happened um it was just one of those things that I just said thank the lord coach you uh you get criticized because you know every time

if you have an opinion and if it doesn't coincide with some other people's opinion they say you're a hater you had a rank and you said that Brady was the sixth most difficult quarterback in NFL history to defend. Do you still agree with your ranking? And why do you say he was the sixth most difficult quarterback to defend? Well, first of all, I don't think you can rank across generations anyway. Right. So I said, I'm not going to do that.

And I'm not going to go by statistics or whatever. I'm going to go by who was toughest on me right so now i got to start i'm never putting tom brady ahead of peyton manning so the best he can be is two because peyton was my guy so the highest he could ever get is two correct okay i started thinking of okay who did who gave me real problem john elway you could do everything right have the perfect defense he's gonna move around and make something happen and kill you and he killed me enough to say he he was difficult Steve Young was the same way those mobile quarterbacks so that's who I put ahead of Tom Aaron Rodgers John Elway Steve Young, guys who could move. Not to say Tom wasn't great.

He is great. But that extra dimension meant something to me. So that's why I would only put him at six. Just my opinion. Now we look at, and you've mentioned the evolution of the mobile quarterback. Not only, look, these quarterbacks, when we say mobile coach, they're not looking to run the football. They're looking to still throw the football

and they can throw it on the move. They can throw it wrong foot. They can throw it rolling left. They can throw it rolling right. You look at Deshaun Watson. You look at Patrick Mahomes. You look at Aaron Rodgers. You look at Russell Wilson.

I just saw Josh Allen last night and he's playing unbelievable. When you look at these quarterbacks, what's been the biggest transformation? Why are these quarterbacks coming in and being able to play so well so early? I think it's coaches adapting rather than taking that rookie quarterback and saying, you got to learn all this stuff and you got to learn how to be a pocket passer and you've got to learn this and learn that. They're saying, no, let me take what this young man does and build on it so i've got the rpos in in i've got bootlegs in for them and

that's stuff that you never saw before and so now it's russell wilson and deshaun creating and instead of the coach saying no no no don't do that the coach is saying you know what this helps us and we'll put scramble drills in and when when russell does this receivers you do that. The coach is saying, you know what? This helps us. And we'll put scramble drills in. And when, when Russell does this receivers, you do that. We'll put bootlegs in Josh Allen. We're going to let you go. And I think coaches have come out of their shell and they've let these guys be who they are. Coach, are you surprised Patrick Holmes is this good? I mean, I thought I saw him throw, I saw him throw for over 700 yards against Oklahoma, but everybody throws for a bunch of yards in the Big 12.

Are you surprised he's this? He has a chance to be all-time generational transcendent great, not just good. He can be great, great, great. Yeah, I am. And what amazes me about him is that 25 years old, his concept and his processing of information and his control of the game, very few mistakes,

very few interceptions, very few bad checks. So add the great arm skills and all of that, but the mental capacity that he has at 25, that has amazed me. And you look at the weapon. And for Andy, and look, you think about it. They went to the playoffs. They won a division.

They went to the playoffs, if I'm not mistaken. And he moves up 17 spots to take Patrick Mahomes when he had a quarterback that went to the playoffs. But I think Andy envisioned, I got Tyreek, a guy that can take the top off. We've never seen anything like this since Bob Hayes. I got a guy in Travis Kelsey. In order for me to maximize that,

I need a guy that can throw the ball over the top. Yep. Yep. They saw something special. I don't know why they saw it and everybody else didn't, but they saw something special in Patrick Mahomes. And to put him in the lineup, to make that switch from a playoff quarterback, that takes a lot of guts.

And they did it and they knew they were going to the next level. And then to put stuff in for him, 55-yard corner routes, you know, things that we haven't seen before. People would think you're crazy for actually just putting that play in. No, Patrick can do it. We're going to take advantage of what he can do. I think it's been amazing. Coach, you don't tweet often, but when you tweet,

your tweets get a lot of because they're like, is this really Coach Dungey tweeting? You tweeted Manning played against Brady five times in the playoff. Manning won three, Brady won two. Is that your definition of Patriots owning? Why'd you tweet that? Somewhat, I forget what, I think it was in response to my ranking. And one of the Patriots fans tweeted out,

we own Peyton Manning in the playoffs. And I'm saying, what about facts now? That's a great opinion to have, but let's look at some facts. I don't think you own Manning in the playoffs. I just wanted to make that point. Are you surprised that Coach Belichick and Brady split up after 20 years? I am, but Rodney Harrison told me he thought it would happen. He really did, that there's just going to come a time.

To me, it was such a – I didn't want to see it happen. Those guys were so special together. You want to see, can they win seven? Can they win eight? Maybe they can win ten together. Tom wants to keep playing. But I guess, you know, time changes things and everything can't remain the way it was. But there was something inside of me that was a little sad when,

when that split happened. I'm not surprised because anytime you see two guys and they're battling for credit, something's going to have to give, because at the end of the day, we can't have 50, 50. It's gotta be somebody has to get either if it's not only if it's only one percent if it's 51 49 somebody needs more credit do you believe they can win super bowls apart from each other a super bowl apart because it seems to me that's what they hell been on doing coach i think they can but it's going to be much more

difficult than it would have been together. And we'll see what happens. It may never happen because Super Bowls are tough to win. And for those guys to win six, that was an unbelievable accomplishment. If I was a betting man, I would say that neither one of them probably will. Andrew, you mentioned Andrew Luck earlier. He retired. He took a beating, a lot of punishment. Are you surprised he retired at such a young age?

And do you think he'll ever come back? I do not think he'll come back. I was definitely surprised. I was actually there. They had an alumni day. I was there the day before he announced his retirement. I was talking to him, and he's talking about what he's going to do when he's doing exercises with the trainers, training on his own.

I was totally shocked when it happened. But he's the type of guy who doesn't want to go out there at 95%. He doesn't want to go out there at 90%, even though his 90 could have been better than most quarterbacks. Yes. I think he had a very high standard. I'm so banged up. I can't play that standard.

It's time to step down. But I was shocked, but I do not think he'll be back. MVP, Rodgers or Mahomes? Patrick Mahomes. When you watch what he's doing with that offense, Rodgers has been great, but Patrick Mahomes has taken that to another level. And you look at that defense,

you have to score a lot of points in Kansas City, and he's doing it. Their defense is not very good. Their defense has reverted back to 2018. Now they get some, now they steal an extra possession so Mahomes can capitalize. But if you just watch that defense,

and that's what teams do, what they try to do, and I watch what teams are doing. They're taking the play clock down, and they're trying to keep – they're trying to limit Mahomes' opportunities and make it – say, look, let's just get to the fourth quarter. Let's not let them run away with it, and let's see what happens. They've lost one game in the last year and a half to the Oakland Raiders, or Las Vegas Raiders, 40 to 32.

So that tells me you've got to score 40 points to beat Patrick Mahomes. And you've got to hope he's off slightly too, Coach. Yes, yes, yes. So if that's the pressure that he's putting on people, that you've got to score 40 to win, to me that's the pressure that he's putting on people, that you've got to score 40 to win, to me, that's the most valuable player. At the start of the season, who did you pick to go to the Super Bowl

and who do you have going now? I picked San Francisco because I thought they would come back with some vengeance after that loss. And then the AFC, I didn't know who was going to get there. I never picked the defending champs because I think it's too hard to go back. So now I am thinking Kansas City.

I think they're going to be tough to deal with. And I think New Orleans is playing the most complete ball on the other side. And they get Drew Brees back, they're going to be tough to deal with. Well, Coach, that's who I picked at the beginning of the season. I picked Drew Brees in New Orleans.

I should have called you and asked. Because I just felt that New Orleans was going to play because I believe this is Drew Brees' last season. And I believe he came back for this opportunity. He says, you know what, I have unfinished business. And if you look at the way, now, offensively, they're okay. But their defense, they have, their defense is getting after people. Now, it's going to be interesting to see if Drew Brees does it,

how soon Drew gets back. Because if I'm a team, look, if you only score 17 points, they can beat you at Taysom Hill. You got to make it a shootout. You got to make Taysom Hill beat you throwing the football. And if you can't do that, I don't believe you can beat you at Taysom Hill. You got to make it a shootout. You got to make Taysom Hill beat you throwing the football. And if you can't do that, I don't believe you can beat the Saints. And even if Pittsburgh was 11-0, I wasn't sold on Pittsburgh because they're too one-dimensional.

They can't run the football. Yeah, they're winning a lot of, as you say, 17, 14, 21-17. When you play Kansas City, you're not going to win a 21, 17 game. So you better be able to put up some points. Coach, I really appreciate you taking time today. I know you're busy. I appreciate you taking time. Is there anything you want to plug?

You got a book? You got a charity? No, I'm all good. I appreciate it. But it's been great being with you. Good being with you, Coach. You know, I don't get an opportunity to talk to you much. I remember when I was on Sirius Satellite Radio.

It used to come on every Monday for like three years. It was fun. It was fun, yeah. I miss those times. Thanks, Coach. I really appreciate it. All my life, been grinding all my life. Sacrifice, hustle, pay the price.

Want a slice, got to roll the dice. That's why all my life I've been grinding all my life. All my life, been grinding all my life. I'll see you next time. Wake up with football every morning and listen to my new podcast, NFL Daily with Greg Rosenthal. Five days a week, you'll get all the latest news and the best analysis delivered by the time you get your coffee. The show hits every single game every single week, but I can't do it alone, so I'm bringing in all the big guns from NFL media like Colleen Wolfe. Subscribe today and you'll immediately be smarter and funnier than your friends.

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