Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore - KIDNAPPED: Denise Huskins

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

This week, Morgan and Kaelyn sit down for an exclusive interview with Denise Huskins—the woman at the center of one of the most shocking kidnapping cases in recent memory. She was taken from her boyfriend’s home in the middle of the night, held for ransom, and released two days later… only to be accused of faking the whole thing. Labeled the real-life “Gone Girl,” Denise was discredited by police, doubted by the public, and dismissed by the press. But as she shares in her own words, the truth was far more terrifying. From cryptic emails to a strand of blonde hair, the clues tell a story of survival—not deception. Clues is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Don’t Miss out on all things Clues! YouTube: @CluesPod | @crimehousestudios Instagram: @cluespodcast | @Crimehouse TikTok: @Crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios X: @crimehousemedia Clues is hosted by Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore  Instagram: @morgsyabsher | @itskaelynmoore TikTok: @twohottakes | @heartstartspounding To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Dr. Hrini Bot, host of Hidden History. Every Monday, I go where history gets uncomfortable. Vanished civilizations, doomsday prophecies, and events that science still can't fully explain. Listen to and follow Hidden History, available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is Crime House. There's a black ski mask, duct tape, black gloves, there's zip ties, rope, a half-empty bottle of NyQuil. The cops don't really see any signs of disturbance in the home. There's no broken windows.

There's no drawers that have been rummaged through. Even that's not enough to convince the authorities that this is real. They went on national news to say that this was all a hoax and we were liars. So I didn't trust anything that was given to me. They just see a 30-year-old man sitting at his kitchen table saying that his girlfriend is missing. Hi, welcome back to another episode of clues, guys, where we sneak past the crime scene tape to explore the key evidence behind some of the most gripped. being true crime cases. And these aren't just ordinary cases. They're complex puzzles where forensic science, investigative techniques, and sheer grit collide in order to uncover the truth and

deliver justice. I'm Kayla Moore and I'll be the one digging into the timelines, the backstories, and the court files released on these cases. And I'm your internet sleuth, Morganab. Sure. I'm going to be diving into the clues that really break this case, looking at the details that add up or maybe don't and having read it help us along the way. Each week on clues, we're going to discuss how even the smallest pieces of evidence, I'm talking microscopic fibers, partial fingerprints, even a single strand of hair, or a pair of goggles, could even lead to groundbreaking discoveries and may even bring long-awaited justice. These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting sometimes for decades to finally be heard. So join us as we uncover the breakthroughs,

the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations. And as always, at Crimehouse, we really value your support. So please be sure to share your thoughts on social media. And remember to rate, review, and follow clues to help others discover our show. And if you want bonus episodes, early access, and ad-free listening, join our Crimehouse Plus community on Apple Podcasts. Today, we're talking about the case of Denise Huskins and Aaron Quinn. In 2015, police received a call that Denise and Aaron were awakened by home invaders, tied up, drugged, and Denise was eventually taken hostage. But the more investigators dug into this story, the more it seemed to be stranger than fiction.

Investigators quickly honed in on Aaron. Was he indeed a victim? Or was this an elaborate story to cover up something darker? With the public quickly hailing this, a real-life-gone-girl, an innocent woman quickly got lost as the focus. Let's open this case and get to the real story and clues that brought it to justice. One of this week's partners is Peloton. There's a specific kind of joy and freedom that comes from a truly great workout. That feeling where everything just clicks. Peloton is helping you unlock that feeling with the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ. It's cross-training reimagined. Peloton IQ actually personalizes your journey by planning your workouts, tracking your progress, and even correcting

your form in real time to help you unlock new versions of yourself. So let yourself run, lift, fail, try, and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus at OnePeloton.com. So Morgan, was the first time you heard about this case also the Netflix doc? It was. And I went into it not knowing anything. And wow. Was it a wild journey? Yeah. Which we're going to talk about it today. But the doc doesn't even scratch the surface of some of the stuff that was happening in this case. It's a great way to hear Denise tell her story herself. There's a lot more going on that we're going to touch on today. A lot. And you got into her book. Yeah, we have her book. If you're watching it. on YouTube, you can see Denise's book. Actually, she wrote it with Aaron called Victim F, which is, again, another great way to hear the story through her perspective and her words. She's also doing like a lot of victim advocacy. It's like really cool to see what she's been doing. Absolutely. So without further ado, let's get into this case. Before we do, for anyone who's watching this episode on YouTube, you'll see all of the pictures and things we talk about. And don't worry if you're a listener because all of the images will be on our social media at Clues.

podcast on Instagram. All right, let's set the scene a little bit. So on March 23rd, 2015, police officers from the city of Vallejo, California, just north of San Francisco, receive a 911 phone call. On the other end of the line, there's a 30-year-old man, Aaron Quinn. He seems groggy and confused, not really panicky, but he tells the officers that the night before, his girlfriend, Denise Huskins, was kidnapped. And the 911 operator looks at her clock, and she can see that it's been 11 hours since Aaron claims someone broke into their house and took Denise. And she asks him why he didn't call the night before. Well, Aaron says, we were tied up and the intruders gave us sedatives. Police officers immediately get dispatched to the scene. And they

arrive at Aaron's house sometime around 2 p.m. And when they get there, you know, they're already thinking this case is strange because the 911 call was strange. But the house seems even stranger because it was described as an intrusion and someone was kidnapped. But the cops don't really see any signs of disturbance in the home. There's no broken windows. There's no drawers that have been rummaged through. They just see a 30-year-old man sitting at his kitchen table saying that his girlfriend is missing. Officers do notice a couple of strange things about the scene. And they maybe take mental notes, but it doesn't seem like there's much done about it. But they see that in the corner of one of the rooms, in the living room. There's a camera placed up, like up in the corner up on the walls.

And there's tape outlining a box on the floor. But officers also see that they, There's glasses out and beer cans, and it seems like that's the thing that they're more concerned about in that moment. Yeah. When you watch those tapes back of officers responding to Aaron's house, it is surprising the things they're questioning him on rather than, you know, more details specific to Denise. And I wouldn't want them to come into my house because I've got a lot of glasses all over the place. Right. And so they immediately start asking Aaron what happened. And Aaron says that the night before his girlfriend, Denise, had come over to stay the night. She's Aaron's age. She has a doctorate and physical therapy. She's so smart. Everyone that talks about her brings up how smart she is. And the two had met at work and the relationship had really progressed quickly over the last few months. Around 3 a.m. after the couple had gone to sleep, they were still pretty groggy. And all of a sudden, they hear a strange man's voice coming from somewhere in the house. They kind of come to a little bit more. And there's actually a man flashing a white light into their eyes and what looks to be lasers on the wall behind them. The light is so. bright. The couple can't really see the man that well, but they can tell he's wearing a black ski mask, all black clothing, and it looks like he's carrying a weapon. Also, both Aaron and Denise get a sense

that there's more than one person in the room, though they can only hear one person's voice. After waking them up, the man says in a calm and controlled voice that this is just a robbery. He doesn't want to hurt them. When the man tells the couple to go over to the closet, they do it. They don't really think that if they don't, they think that if they pay attention and follow his rules that everything will be fine. But then the guy does something really strange. He actually takes out these blacked out swim goggles and he makes them put them over their eyes. And then he puts headphones over their ears. And this is an interesting clue in the case, these headphones, because these aren't just headphones playing music. They're playing these pre-recorded messages with instructions. So clearly this is premeditated.

This is planned. Yeah. It's this weird auto-tuned voice telling them to stay calm. But the voice also says they're both about to be drugged. And then they'll have to answer questions about their personal history and their finances. After the recording's done, the intruder comes back to the closet. He gives them both sedatives in a liquid form, a mix of Nyquil and diazepam. I remember reading, too, that he even asked them if they were allergic to either of those things before he gave it to them.

Like, he also just has these weird quirks about him as he's going about this. Yeah, which is so interesting because, I don't know, it's not something you would expect a robber to do, like asking you if you have any contraindications to why you can't have this medication. Right. It's interesting. But Denise and Aaron drink it. And then the guy takes Aaron to another room. He asks Aaron a bunch of questions, including his bank account numbers, his passwords, and personal and family info. But oddly enough, he doesn't seem to be asking Denise any questions.

Instead, at some point, she's actually moved downstairs. to the living room. She's sitting there on a couch, still tied up, wearing those blacked-out goggles when she hears the main guy speak to her. He says, there's a little bit of a problem. And then he tells her, quote, this wasn't meant for you. The man says he thought Denise was actually Andrea, Aaron's ex. They both have long, blonde hair and look pretty similar. So he tells Denise, he needs a minute to figure out what to do. Clearly, not a part of his plan. Eventually, the guy comes back with Aaron and tells them they're going to take Denise to another location for 48 hours. And Aaron will have to complete a set of tasks in order to get Denise back.

Yeah, one of those things that he says is that Aaron's going to have to pay $17,000 for Denise's release. And he also mentions that he has installed surveillance cameras around the home and is going to be watching his every move. And if Aaron tries to go to the police, he says that Denise will die. Then the intruder carries Denise to the trunk of his car, still blindfolded, and drives off into the night, leaving Aaron behind. Beyond terrifying. I can't even imagine. And remember, he's like fighting off said it is because he was given the diazepam and NyQuil. So eventually he just passes out. There's not much he could do and his hands are still tied. And he's staring up at a camera in a corner seemingly watching him. He just got told if you do anything, it's not.

not going to end well. So all you can do is sit and wait. And so after the sedatives wear off, Aaron does eventually wake up around 11 a.m. on March 23rd. He manages to untie himself, checks his phone, and sees that there's an email from the kidnapper. Email says that Aaron needs to go to the bank and get the money. Once he hands it over, they'll bring Denise back at a different time, which makes Aaron really nervous. What if he gives them the cash and then they don't bring Denise back. And that's when it really dawns on him. The kidnappers told him to not call the police. But they didn't say he couldn't call someone else for help. And as it turns out, Aaron's brother is actually an FBI agent. But when he gets his brother on the phone, he tells Aaron that he should

absolutely call 911. Forget whatever the kidnappers told you. Call help now. Yeah, you're not going to be able to settle that on your own. No, you're in over your head. So Aaron does call the police. And that's when the two Vallejo officers arrive at his house a little after 2 p.m. So it's been about 11 hours since the intruders first broke in. The police hear this whole story. And remember, they saw that his house looks relatively undisturbed. No forced entry, no broken windows. How did they get in? Well, looks like they walked through the door. And they are immediately really skeptical of this story Aaron is telling them. So one of the first things police ask Aaron is, were you drugged? And he says, yeah, and then explains the whole situation with the night quill and everything.

But they then proceed to ask Aaron if he was partying. And they really hone in on this. They notice those beer cans and how many drinks did you have and do you take drugs recreationally? Yeah, it looks like you were drinking last night. Yeah. They're really starting to ask questions that it's clear where their thoughts are already going. And now Aaron insists, no, of course, we weren't partying. I don't use drugs.

that's not the case here. It's clear the police who are at Aaron's house kind of have a different idea than what Aaron's telling them. And, you know, he is already taking a risk by calling police, especially after this kidnapper told him, do not contact anyone.

So when officers ask him to come down to the station, he, of course, says yes. He feels this is the best course of action. He just wants to do anything to get Denise home safely. I remember in the inner, or in the Netflix documentary, he also talks about how he's from like

a nice neighborhood in Northern California. He was raised that like if you call the police, they will help you. He was, and so as we get further into his story, like, there's a few times where it seems like, hey, maybe you should get a lawyer, but like he really, that did not cross his mind. I mean, his brother is an FBI agent. Yeah. The law was seemingly your friend. Yeah, exactly. But when Aaron arrives that afternoon on March 23rd, they put him in an interrogation room. They even ask him to change out of his clothes and they put him in prison clothes, striped pants and all. Yeah, right away. It's clear they're sending a message and things quickly get way more intense.

One of this week's partners is Grooons. I'm using Spring as a reset button. I'm changing up my routines, getting back to being consistent and really focusing on my health this year. That is where Grooons comes in. Grooons are a convenient, comprehensive formula packed into a snack pack of of gummies a day. This isn't a multivitamin, a greens gummy, or a prebiotic. It's all of those things, and then some, at a fraction of the price. And a bonus, it tastes great. I love Grooons. I took a bunch of the packs on my trip to New York recently, and I just had them as snacks throughout

the day. It is a daily snack pack of gummies, because you actually can't fit the amount of nutrients Grooons does into just one gummy. Plus, it makes it a fun treat. Getting a daily treat is non-negotiable for me. And it includes six grams of prebiotic fiber. And you can feel good about Grooons because their ingredients are backed by over 35,000 research publications. So if you're ready to try Grooens for yourself, save up to 52% off with code clues at grooens.co. That's codeclus at g-r-un-s.c-o. This episode is brought to you by Instacart. I have a four-month-old at home, which means I don't leave the house unless I absolutely have to. Going to the grocery store is a really big deal for me these days,

which is why I love Instacart so much. I hate grocery shopping. I always forget things. I get overwhelmed. I have decision paralysis or I shop hungry and then I get way too much, which is why I love to use Instacart. Keep me out of the store. I'm going to sit at home reading my book instead.

And Summer is all about saying yes to last minute plans, a friend's backyard barbecue, impromptu picnic, or just deciding to cook instead of ordering in. With Instacart, you don't have to choose between being spontaneous or being prepared. Order what you need in the morning and get a delivery in as fast as 30 minutes so you can keep your plans without adding a grocery run into the mix. And if you know you're going to be short on time the next day, you can order what you need in the morning and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes. So you can keep whatever plans you have without adding a grocery run to the mix. Absolutely. Instacart brings convenience, quality, and ease right to your door so that you can focus on what matters most.

Download the Instacart app now and get groceries just how you like. Aaron is actually in this interrogation room for the next 18 hours. And I've watched a lot of this footage. It's in the Netflix documentary. Aaron's retelling how these interviews went. It is intense. There's a detective named Matt Mustard, and he really goes in on Aaron from the beginning. Detective Mustard starts asking Aaron more questions about his relationship with

Denise, and he learned something that makes him even more skeptical of Aaron. See, last night when Denise was over, the two were kind of sorting through a previous fight of theirs. It turns out that about seven months into the relationship in early 2015, Denise learned that Aaron was still talking to his ex-fiancee, Andrea. However, Aaron and Andrea had broken up in early 2014 when he learned that she had been cheating on him. A few months later is when he actually started dating Denise, and early on he was kind of like, no, I don't know if I'm ready. I'm still kind of conflicted with my feelings, but, you know, Denise said she could tell he was a really good guy and wanted to give this a shot. And Aaron really made it seem like he was over his ex-fiance and he was turning over a new leaf and starting this new relationship.

So when Denise learned that he was still texting his ex, she's pissed. And rightfully so. She kind of says to Aaron at this point, I need to know if you're actually committed to our relationship or not. And sort of gives him this ultimatum. And on the night of March 22nd, 2015, Denise goes over to his house in this part of Vallejo called Mare Island so they can talk it out. She brings pizza, they have a couple beers, they have this really long and emotional conversation. And it seems like they both come out of it feeling really good. Aaron tells her he's fully committed to her. Denise is willing to give him another chance. And this is what Aaron is telling detectives, really trying to paint the picture of the night before. Yeah, thinking that if he like gives them this information,

they'll see a bigger picture of how beautiful their relationship. Yeah, I mean, every relationship goes through struggle and growing pain. Like, it's not abnormal. And he's being very forthcoming with them. But that is not how this detective took this. No. No. Mustard took this as there was tension in the relationship and was really persistent asking

Aaron if he was cheating went so far. And this is one of the most inappropriate things. I think he kind of alluded to. But he's like, oh, maybe you called the wrong name during sex and Denise got mad. Really, really making a lot of strong accusations. That's a leap, yeah. And being inappropriate. Right.

You have someone telling you everything very forthcoming. So a little odd to me. And Aaron starts to get the impression that it's not going that well with this detective mustard. He notices that he's not really taking any notes down. even as like Aaron's giving him very specific details and eventually becomes very clear why. Mustard looks Aaron in the eyes and tells him that he doesn't believe the story coming out of Aaron's mouth.

He thinks Denise is actually dead and wants Aaron to stop line. He actually says to him, quote, I'm going to tell them that I'm not looking for alive Denise. I'm looking for a dead Denise. Further goes on to tell Aaron, quote, the frogmen obviously didn't do it. So who did it now? Well, it's the guy that I've been sitting here talking

to tonight. So now I get out my puzzle pieces and I start figuring it out, okay, how do I make it so you look like a monster? How do I manipulate the situation so you look like a monster? You are supposed to be interviewing a victim and this is the path you take? Well, he's already made up his mind and he's clearly just trying to fit the pieces to like fit whatever he thinks happened. Puzzle master. Yeah. As he says. And Aaron just kind of asked, where do we go from here? And after hours and hours of already being in this room, mustard just says, I don't know, I'm going to take a break and I'm going to figure it out. This kind of game goes back and forth of Aaron being left alone in the room, these accusations.

It's very stressful to the point where you can kind of see Aaron's breaking down. He's like, what has happened? Like, did I forget something? Like, he's genuinely starting to crumble. Because he still thinks that the police are good guys that are going to help him. Mm-hmm. And all the while, Mustard, and. and other officers are really hoping he'll finally cave and confess.

But Aaron insists he didn't do it. His girlfriend is out there somewhere, probably alive, and he needs to get her home immediately. After a few more hours of this back and forth, Aaron's like, I want to talk to my brother. Bring my brother in here. What Mustard hasn't told him is that his brother has been at the station this entire time. Yeah, just withheld that from him.

Yeah, I mean, these guys are thinking this is another Lacey Peterson case and they aren't even going to look elsewhere. They've got their guy. Yeah, they're like, oh, we already solved this. So they think. So Aaron's brother comes in to see him. He says that he knows Aaron is telling the truth, but that they need to get a lawyer ASAP. Yeah, finally someone tells him to get a lawyer, thank God. Because Aaron is now being considered as a suspect in Denise's supposed murder. As Aaron starts to find representation, Denise's family actually makes their way up to Vallejo, where there is about to be a huge break in this case. Our first really big clue arises when a video of Denise being held hostage is emailed to a local reporter. Reporter gets it to the police and in this video, Denise states her

name, said that she's been kidnapped, she talks about some relevant news items that have been happening and overall just seems to remain really calm, which has people speculating a lot more. The police, the reporter, everyone that sees this. How is she so calm? Is she staging this? Is she staging this? for some reason. Again, people are very confused by this. And this is where Denise's mom shares something that Detective Mustard says to her. He asked, has anything ever happened to Denise as a child? And her mom thinks about it for a second and just goes, well, yeah, there was this, you know, this time when she was molested as a child. And Mustard goes so far. As to suggest, Denise could be faking this whole kidnapping, this whole thing as a way to do.

to relive what happened to her in the past. And he tells that to her mother. Her mother. And he has since denied this, but her mom has been very vocal in telling this. Talks about it in the Netflix documentary. And it is, I just don't see how you would pull that out of thin air. No. No, that's like one of the most heartbreaking parts of the whole documentary.

The case is already shaping up to be pretty strange. And the general public doesn't know really what to make of it. And it only gets stranger from this point. Because on March 25, 2015, 48 hours after this entire saga started, and also 400 miles away from Vallejo, police officers in Huntington Beach, California, get a 911 call that makes this case so much more baffling. They say that a woman calls them and explains that she's with her neighbor, a woman who is 30 years old, blonde, named Denise Huskins. And she's claiming that the kidnappers have returned her. So this shocks police in Huntington Beach because this was a story throughout California. Like every police precincts knew about this.

And once they hear the name Denise Huskins, they're like, oh my God. And they contact the detectives up in Vallejo and they basically tell Denise, like, you have to go back up to Vallejo and talk to the detectives up there so that they can start putting this together. So that's what she does. She goes up and she meets with Detective Mustard in Vallejo. And she starts filling in the gaps for investigators as to what happened after she. she was taken out of Aaron's home. She says that whoever was talking, this like person who went into their house scooped her up and placed her in the trunk of a car. She said she was fully going into

survival mode. And remember, she's a really smart person. Everyone talks about how smart she is. So as she's in the trunk of this car, and remember, she's fighting off the sedatives too, but she has enough wherewithal to be like, I have to try to remember all the turns that the car is taking, like what the texture of the road feels like, because maybe I'll be able to reach. trace my steps. But eventually the sedatives do win and Denise falls asleep in the trunk of the car. She wakes up eventually and she thinks it's maybe been a few hours. She feels the car come to a stop. Then because she's wearing the goggles, she can't really see anything, but she hears the trunk pop as if someone's opening it. And then she feels two arms, scoop under her body, lift her up and carry her

into a house. While she's in there, she gets untied. And the voice, same voice that she heard in Erin's home tells her that she's allowed to take a shower. After that, he leaves the room. But he does tell her before he leaves that she can finally take her goggles off. She takes the goggles off. She looks around. She's just in this like normal bedroom. There's like nothing in it, really. He actually did say something to her like he wants to give her privacy because, quote, he doesn't want to dehumanize her more than he has to. And that is something that really like raises flags for her because what do you mean dehumanize me more than you have to? You just kidnapped me out of my boyfriend's house. Yeah. Yeah, it's like you've already dehumanized me. And what do you mean you have to?

Okay. Like there's just so many things about that phrasing that's just so weird. It would have stuck out as odd to me too. Yeah. And so she really is just like kind of going into that mode of like I think I need to do what this guy says or he's going to really hurt me. Well, she's in shock, I'm sure too. And she's in shock. And she's still like, I don't know when I take NyQuil, I'm groggy for like three days. So she's still feeling that. So she ends up taking the shower. But once she's done, she puts the goggles back on because she doesn't want to risk it. The guy eventually takes her to a bedroom where he ties her to a bed with zip ties and a ball. And a. He gives her more drugs in that same liquid form. And then he just kind of leaves for a while. At some point, that same afternoon, March 23rd still, her kidnapper finally comes back to where he's keeping Denise. And she still has these blacked out goggles on. She really can't see the person she's talking to. She has no idea where she is. But one thing about this kidnapper is he loves to yap. And he starts just talking at her. And he's telling her all of this information. He says that he is part of this organization. It's a black market startup company that collects personal and corporate debts. He doesn't really elaborate on that organization much, but he does tell her at one point that

he used to be in the military, and now he actually suffers PTSD. To Denise, she doesn't really know what to believe. Like, he says he's in the military, and that sounds like it could be real, but then he's telling her about this like black market organization that doesn't, he can't really give that many details about. So that feels like it's maybe made up. She doesn't know if there's other people involved or if it's just him. Remember, she said that there were like multiple people in the house, but now it's just him in this house. So it's just like very confusing for her. Yeah. And how much credibility does your kidnapper have? Right. And on top of that, remember, he said that he didn't want to dehumanize her. But at some point, he comes in and he tells her that he needs something to

blackmail her with. And he says that the group he's with decided, that they need to force Denise to have sex with one of them and record it as a safeguard. And after she hears that, she kind of gives up any hope that this person is telling the truth. She knows that this is completely out of her control. There's like really nothing she can do to win over this person. He's making up the rules as he goes. And it just like, it kind of gets scarier from that point on. The guy also says if Denise tries to go to the police after they release her, he's going to put the video on the internet.

And so like it's really important that they have this piece of blackmail. She feels totally helpless at this moment, but she goes along with it. Again, there's nothing she can do. And the sexual assault really doesn't end on day one. The following afternoon on March 24th, he comes back and he tells her that the video they recorded wasn't convincing enough. This time, it needs to look like she's in love with him. And so he has them do it again.

And according to Denise, she felt the need to, quote, perform to save her life. And at this point, she's going along with what this guy says because she doesn't know what else to do. But like I said, she decided that this guy's a liar and she knows now that she has to get out of there. At one point, when he leaves the room, she has her goggles off and she's looking around for anything she can use as a weapon to fight him off, just something she can do to take control of the situation. And she realizes there's nothing. And she's starting to like really give up hope, but she realizes like she's just going to have to find another way to survive. So by 2 a.m. on March 25th, it's been about 48 hours since her abduction. And Denise Huskin's kidnapper wakes her up, again, scoops her up in his arms and carries her outside to a car. He removes the goggles that she's been wearing pretty much this whole time when he's been in the room. He tapes her eyes shut and he gives her sunglasses to put on top. Plus, he gives her more of the sedatives he's been using as the car ride starts. At this point, Denise has no idea where she's being taken. She can't help but fall asleep because, you're

She's fighting off the sedatives. It's not working. And again, she wakes up and she feels like it's been a few hours. So she feels the car stop. And then the kidnapper tells her that they've arrived at their destination. And she doesn't know what that means. But he says he's ready to release her. But before he does, he says that he knows she's going to try to talk to the police. But there are two things that she absolutely cannot tell them. One, she can't say that he and the others in the group are involved with the military. big no. And two, she can't say that they've had sex. The kidnapper also warns her. He knows where her family lives. He'll be watching them and her if she makes any wrong moves. Then, once again, scoops Denise out of the car, removes the zip ties, tells her to count to 10. And when she's finished counting, she removes the tape from her eyes and sees that she's in Huntington Beach,

California, nearly seven hours from her home in Vallejo. But she realizes she's now on the very same street that she grew up on and that's where her mom and dad still live actually and she can't believe this when she sees that no it's insane because again this was not his target yeah right and so for him in those two short days to research and find out where her parents live it kind of shows how dangerous he could potentially be yeah he's just like looking her up he's figuring out information on her very jarring drops her at her parents house which is terrifying she stumbles down the street she makes her way to her front door, but no one's home. They were like on a trip at that point or some, but they just weren't at home in Huntington Beach. So she goes and she actually knocks on her neighbor's door and

her neighbor answers. And she is so shocked and relieved to see Denise because she's been all over the news for the last two days as a missing person, a possible kidnapped person. They end up calling the Huntington Beach police officers who come to the scene. Denise tells them the whole story. But one thing that the officers do ask while they're there talking to her is if she had been sexually assaulted. And in Denise's mind, she remembers that, like, that's the one thing the kidnapper said to not tell anyone about. She can't say that they've had sex. So she decides in that moment to not say anything about that. They ask her she's been sexually assaulted and she says no on the record. She lies to the police. And unfortunately, as we've kind of discussed in this case already, the police had these

really weird misconceptions about sexual assaults, like saying that she was trying to relive the thrill of being molested. Yeah. In this case, telling the police officers, no, I haven't been sexually assaulted, when you have, that's really going to hurt Denise later on in the investigation. After that, the police end up getting in contact with Denise's parents who were actually up in Vallejo. And that night at around 830, Denise gets on a flight to fly back up to Vallejo and be reunited with everyone. And when she lands, she actually sees that the Vallejo police are in the middle of a press

conference because they've been informed as to what's happening. The Huntington Police got in contact with them. and this press conference really changes everything in this investigation. Because now that Denise is clearly alive, there's no murder charges. So the police have to come forward and say that something else happened. And you would maybe think that a detective like Matt Mustard would go and see that Denise was alive and say, oh, wow, our initial assumptions of this case were wrong. I assumed she was dead.

I assume she had been murdered by her boyfriend. But now that she's alive, we can actually investigate this whole thing, right? I was wrong. Let's actually look into what happened. But that's not what happens at all. Instead, he doubles down on the fact that he was right. He thinks that the evidence now indicates that this was, quote, an orchestrated event and not a kidnapping. And he thinks that Denise and Aaron have staged this entire thing. Absolutely absurd to make that claim to start putting that implication out there before really interviewing her. You know, I watched a lot of different news clips from this time where, you know, they show surveillance of her walking up to the neighbor's door and all this stuff. And like the police start sowing these seeds in the media's mind that Denise isn't cooperating with them. Right. Further kind of pushing this story that she doesn't want to talk to them because she planned it herself. She's lying. She's lying.

She doesn't want to be caught in her lie. It's during these same press conferences that authorities actually start to paint Aaron as a liar as well. They're saying he's in on this, that they can't substantiate his claims about the kidnapping. And they go so far in this conference to accuse Denise and Aaron of wasting police resources and taking attention away from real victims. Real. Yeah. They say Aaron and Denise owe the community an apology. You owe us an apology, actually.

Denise knows this isn't true. Aaron knows this isn't true. But the rest of the country actually. seem like they start agreeing with the police. After the press conference, all of these articles come out about the kidnapping, all of these news stories. And these reporters are saying Denise is a real life version of the book and movie Gone Girl. Which that, it cannot be overstated how much of a cultural impact Gone Girl had at this time.

Because in 2015, the movie had just come out and the book was out the year before. And it was everywhere. It was like the biggest thing. Everyone I knew was reading that book. And in the book, she's also this like pretty blonde upper middle class woman who gets bored with life and runs away. And so not only are the police like, oh my God, it's just like this movie I just saw with my wife this weekend. Like everyone in the country feels like that. They're just like because it's top of mind with everyone.

And so I almost feel like this would not be, this case wouldn't be unfolding this way if that movie hadn't come out that year. Hey, before we jump back into the show, let's take a quick break. But not just any break, this is a refreshing break with Snapple. We all know about Snapple's iconic, real facts, so let's take a minute to go over some of my favorites. Snapple Real Fact, 964, it is illegal in the United Kingdom to handle salmon in suspicious circumstances. Snapple Real Fact 1013, it is illegal to sing off-key in North Carolina. Snapple Real Fact 2033, Americans consume 150 million hot dogs on July 4th. Snapple Real Fact 705.

Every ton of recycled paper saves about 17 trees. So grab a snapple, take a second, and enjoy the moment. Because let's be honest, this might be the most refreshing part of your day. Snapple. Make your break more interesting. All right, now let's get back to Clues. This episode is brought to you by Quince. So lately, I feel like I've wanted to be more intentional about the stuff that I've been wearing every day.

I want to lean into pieces that feel effortless and comfortable. but still look put together. That's the key. It just makes getting dressed simpler. And Quince is a go-to for all of those things. The fabrics feel elevated. The fits are very flattering and everything really works without having to overthink it. Yeah, these are pieces you're going to have in your closet for years to come. They stand the test of time. And I needed a closet refresh. So I've got my Quince bodysuit on, some of the softest, most flattering body suits. I know. I was just rubbing your arm. And I felt how soft it was. I also love my linen dress for summer. It's so lightweight, breathable, is cute with everything. I just put in a new order. I'm so excited. I'm getting the Bella Stretch Relaxed Straightleg jeans and also the 100% organic cotton boyfriend crew sweater, which looks so soft and like slouchy. Perfect for recording. Perfect for recording. Refresh your every day with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com slash clues for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada to that's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash clues for free shipping and 365-day returns.

Quince.com slash clues. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save.

Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Because of all this media, Denise is getting death threats before long. She's also starting to question her own sanity. I mean, she just went through this insane amount of trauma, and now you have people calling you a liar, sending you death threats, comparing you to a blockbuster movie.

She also really starts to feel like she can't trust police. And who could blame her? She doesn't really want to tell them anything. And at this point, she's really, really terrified that anything she does say will be weaponized and used against her. You know, she does get an attorney. And this attorney really does say, like, Denise, this is the only real way to put this behind you, to move forward. She does open up about the sexual assault. And so her attorney broaches this topic with police. Like, hey, let's, you know, meet at the hospital. We'll get this sexual assault kit performed. Like, let's really invest. And police kind of tell her attorney like, well, have her come in. We'll interview her. And then if we deem it necessary, we'll do that. But you have to do those kits fast, right? Like you can't shower before you do the kit. Like, time is of the essence. And they're essentially telling her to sit as she is. Don't shower after this horrible experience. Yeah. Maybe don't change your clothes. Just come on down and talk to us. No, it wasn't, it wasn't being taken very seriously. But she still wants to cooperate. operate with the investigation, so she does go to the police station to talk to them. And the very next day, that's where she goes to tell Detective Mustard everything. Kind of as expected at this point, he does not seem empathetic at all about what she went through. Instead, he starts asking her questions like, well, did you think about fighting back? Did you think about escaping? And we've already talked about this. Like, she was looking around the, yeah, mark that as botch. She was

looking around the room looking for a weapon. Like, she and her mom, she and her mom, she and her mom, mind was gearing up to be like, if I have to kill this guy, how am I going to do it? But that's not enough for Detective Mustard. He's like, he needs her to say to him in this moment, like, no, I didn't fight back. Or yes, I fought back. Like, whatever he's looking for. That's irrelevant. When you are in that situation, everyone handles this so, like, like, so differently under stress, under trauma. Yeah. To ask a victim, these questions? No, it's really horrible. I was looking. up like sexual assault common sexual assault misconceptions in law enforcement and in education and just like all like misconceptions that people have about it. And some of the most common

misconceptions are that like you can just fight it off or like it's not really an assault unless it was like violent. And so there is all this evidence that you're more likely to have an assaulter prosecuted if like you're covered in bruises. And Denise wasn't. So it doesn't look like it was forced, right? And so then there's like also not evidence that she like fought back and they're like holding that against her. It's just like this really horrible situation. Terrible. He keeps grilling her with these like really horrible re-traumatizing questions. And even Denise's lawyer at that point starts realizing like this is not working out for her and things are really starting to go south. He basically tells everyone like we're stopping this. Yeah, we're done here. We're like we can't move forward with this. And now Denise feels like she can't trust anyone because every time she tries to help the police or talk to mustard is just like making the situation worse. At this point too, you know, like the whole world.

old is starting to feel like she's lying. But there's one person, and this is so weird, there is one person who really insists that she's telling the truth. And it is truly the last person you'd suspect, which brings us to another clue that we have. Emails. We have emails. After that press conference on March 25th, a crime reporter at the San Francisco Chronicle named Henry Lee gets a message. It's from Huskins Kidnapping at hotmail.com. And it says, Quote, Miss Huskins was absolutely kidnapped. Dot, dot, dot, we did it. You can't make this stuff up.

The author claimed to speak for a group of male professional thieves based in Mare Island, where Aaron lives. It went on to say that after spending time with Denise, they were ashamed and, quote, unspeakably sorry about what they did. The author even said the group was upset that she was now being victimized by the police. This author, her kid. so upset over the police's treatment that he sends an email. Wants the police to know it was true and they did it, which is just very strange.

Henry is shocked. This reporter is like, I've never seen anything like this. I mean, it's hard to believe a real criminal would risk getting caught just to defend their victim. I mean, you guys, this is 2015. We have the ability to track emails. I know. IP addresses. You can figure out exactly where it's being sent from. So the fact that, yeah, they're just shooting off emails to investigators and reporters is crazy. So Henry passes the email onto the police, but even that's not enough to convince the authorities that this is real. They actually think Denise and Aaron wrote the email. Yeah, and don't really look into it past that.

Batched. Batched. I know. I'm like, I forgot to do it at the beginning. Guys don't yell at me. So I'm like, I know we have the fact they didn't believe Aaron. Someone in the comments, like, keep count. Keep count. Keep the tally for us. Just insane. And luckily, these messages don't stop there. On March 28th, Henry receives another email. This one is from Nunn at nowhere.com and it actually has photos attached, including one of the room where Denise was actually held captive. Like the first email, the kidnapper says he's furious with police for doubting Denise. Once again, Henry forwards the email to the Vallejo Police Department. But still, they have made up their minds. They think it's all a part of Denise and Aaron's elaborate hoax. And as Henry, the reporter, is desperately trying to get the police to listen, Denise and Aaron still

hadn't seen each other at this point. Their lawyers actually told them to wait until the heat died down because, I mean, that makes sense if they're seen together, it could be seen as colluding. After seeing how the police reacted, though, it seems like Denise and Aaron just can't wait anymore. So finally, on April 1st, which was a full week after the kidnapping, they meet up at a local Vallejo hotel. Aaron's terrified about how Denise is going to react. She just went through this hugely traumatizing thing. He doesn't know how she's going to be. But honestly, she's just glad to see him when they finally meet up. She collapses into his arms and they both just stand there and cry. Because the whole world seems to think that they're liars, but they know that they're victims.

And they're in this together. For the next two months, all throughout April and May, of 2015, Denise and Aaron continue to be painted as liars by the police and the media. And if that's not bad enough, they're both really suffering from PTSD. Most nights they'll wake up at 3 a.m., which was the time of the attack. Their hearts are pounding in their chests. Denise actually sleeps with a hammer or a knife near her bed. They're both too traumatized to go back to work. They really can't function in their everyday lives. No, and you also get the impression that their work doesn't really want them there either. Like, there's so much scrutiny in people talking about them and saying their liars and this is a hoax. Aaron even mentioned in one interview that he started to feel pushed

out of his job. I can't even imagine, like, you probably can't go out in public at all at that point because people recognize you and just think you're a liar. Aaron and Denise are also not entirely ready to give up yet because they know that there's actual perpetrators out there. And they start to get really worried that these people or this person, whoever it was, that did this might attack again. Turns out they're not wrong. Because on June 5th, 2015, three months after the attack on Denise and Aaron, there was a home invasion in Dublin, which is an eastern suburb in the Bay Area. At 3.30 a.m., the same time as Denise and Aaron's attack, an intruder breaks into the home of a middle-aged couple who live with their adult daughter. Same

thing. They're woken up by flashlights pointed in their eyes, lasers pointed at the wall. The intruder is wearing a black ski mask and all black clothing. And he says to them, quote, we have your daughter and she's safe. Similar to what happened with Denise and Aaron, he tries to tie them up. But the husband gets out of bed and just starts swinging on the guy, just really starts fighting back. And the wife is actually able to run away and she locks herself in the bathroom of their bedroom. And the husband screams, go get our gun. They didn't have a gun. But even just saying that, was enough for the intruder to flee the home, never ended up touching the daughter, didn't really get involved with the family at all, just flees the home. But in his panic, he actually left a

few things behind. And this becomes really, really, really big. After the attack, the family in Dublin calls 911 and officers rush over. They noticed that the perpetrator left behind a few pieces of evidence, including three zip ties, a black wool glove. But most importantly, he left behind his cell phone. I don't want to hear that he's part of some black ops operation if he's leaving behind his cell phone, which is like the most important thing. Police trace the phone back to a woman who says, yeah, that phone belongs to my son. And she gives them a name, Matthew Muller. Apparently, he's been staying at their family cabin in South Lake Tahoe just a couple of hours away. Dublin police get a search warrant, and three days later, on June 8th, they pay a visit to the cabin.

There's only one person there, a man who looks to be in his late 30s. who identifies himself as Matthew Muller. When the officers place him under arrest, Matthew doesn't argue. He's cooperative and says he actually knows why they're there. And once he's in the police cruiser, another detective named Misty Carousou takes a look around the cabin.

And that's when she finds a bunch of really concerning stuff. There's a black ski mask, duct tape, black gloves, there's zip ties, rope, a half-empty bottle of NyQuil. Detective Karasu takes all of this. this into evidence, but there's one other place she wants to look. You see, there's a white Ford Mustang parked outside near the cabin. She goes, pops open the trunk where she finds our fourth clue. In the trunk are swim goggles with black duct tape covering the lenses, and there, caught in the tape is a long strand of blonde hair. She also finds some Nerf guns painted black

and a male blow-up doll dressed in black. Now, Detective Kerosu, was already convinced the home invasion in Dublin was not Matthew Mueller's first crime. But when she sees this hair, she realizes there has to be another victim out there, and she's blonde. The hair has got the wheels turning for Detective Carousou. And after looking through the rest of this car, she's wondering, is this actually his car? So she runs it through a database, and it turns out the car is actually stolen. It belongs to a medical student who lives in Vallejo on Mare Island. He reported it missing in March 2015, right around the same exact time that Denise Huskins went missing. And when Detective Karasu looks at the Denise Huskins case,

everything clicks in the place for her. Not only does she have blonde hair, the details of the kidnapping sound a lot like what happened to the family in Dublin. Detective Karasu feels it in her bones. Denise is not a liar. She's not gone girl in real life. And Matthew Mueller is the man who actually took her hostage. Once Detective Caruso has this realization, she immediately calls Vallejo Police Department. She tells them that she is a person of interest in the Dublin home invasion, who might also be involved in the Denise Huskins case. And it takes a while for her to get someone on the phone and take her seriously about this.

But when she finally does, they apparently tell her that, oh, the case has been handed over to the FBI. So she's going to have to contact them if she wants anyone to look at this. So she does. Detective Caruso contacts them next. And thankfully, they do agree to look into Matthew Mueller. They send someone over to collect all of the evidence from Detective Caruso's team, including what was in the car and what was in the cabin. But that's when they realize that they've made a mistake. This whole time, the FBI was citing with the Vallejo Police Department.

Now they're starting to realize maybe they shouldn't have been. On June 23rd, three months to the day since Denise was taken hostage, the FBI meets with the Dublin police. And they discuss the similarities between Denise's kidnapping and the Dublin home invasion. And both parties agree that the evidence is overwhelming. These two cases are definitely related to each other. And they need to expand the scope of their investigation. Six days later, on June 29th, the FBI gets an arrest warrant for Matthew Mueller.

And while he's in jail facing charges for the Dublin kidnapping, they also charge him with Denise's kidnapping. Now let's talk about who Matthew Miller is. He actually has a pretty wild backstory and seemingly is coming out of left field. Matthew Mueller was born in 1977, which makes him almost 38 at the time of the kidnapping. He grew up in the suburbs of Sacramento and joined the Marines after high school. There is that military clue he told Denise. There was a military connection.

He was honorably discharged for some mental health issues and eventually went back to school. Yeah, I remember reading that he like really suffered from by. bipolar disorder. He would have intense depressive episodes while he was in the military. He was really struggling, having active hallucinations and a lot of paranoia. But he was able to get his undergraduate degree from Pomona College. And then he went on to Harvard Law School. He gets married. He's working as an immigration attorney, even moves to Silicon Valley to work for a law firm there. But around 2008, 2009, his life really starts unraveling. He's really struggling with his mental health again, and a couple of years later in 2012, his wife divorces him. Shortly after that,

he's also disbarred and he cannot work as a lawyer anymore. Clearly, going through a lot, and he's not getting the help he so desperately needs. For the next couple of years, he bounces around California doing odd jobs, like tutoring kids after school, and in early 2014, he lands on Mayer Island in Vallejo. He moves into a house that was actually a block away from Aaron's house. He starts dating someone new, but she's. She leaves him later that year. And that breakup sends Matthew into an even deeper spiral. In early 2015, he moves into his parents' cabin in South Lake Tahoe, where he becomes even more

paranoid and reclusive. Right. And when we talk about his spirals, it's not necessarily just the depressive episodes. Like when he was an immigration lawyer, he started feeling like the government was always after him. Like he was defending a client. And then he would feel like people were tapping his phone and putting surveillance equipment in his house and his cars and just really always felt like there was someone after him. And he

could kind of mask that for a while as a lawyer because, you know, sometimes people are not necessarily surveilling, but like, I don't know, the government's involved. Like maybe you have a high profile client, whatever. But like he really started to feel like that intense, intense paranoia. And it was just affecting every aspect of his life. And I actually, so I did some more digging on him, just kind of coming through some old records. Turns out that this was not Matthew's first brush with the law either. In the years before Matthew's arrest, there were several other cases that shared similarities to Denise's. And these are all before even the Dublin home invasion happened. The first one that happened was this one in Mountain View, which is another suburb of the Bay Area. It was in 2009,

the same year that he moved to Silicon Valley for that law firm gig when his life kind of started unraveling. What happened there was an intruder had broken into a 27-year-old woman's home, tied her up and put blacked out goggles on her eyes. He said that he was a part of a group of criminals that planned to steal her identity and wire money abroad. Later, he did try to sexually assault her, but she begged him not to and he stopped. The woman also said that he was oddly polite during the entire encounter. He would apologize, like, just very strange behavior. And Matthew wasn't actually named as a suspect at the time, but he was investigated in connection with another home invasion, which happened just a month later.

later. This one was in Palo Alto, and the details are almost identical. Except this time, the intruder did drug a woman with NyQuil. Matthew Mueller was listed as a suspect in this one because he was seen walking late at night near where the victim lived. But when police checked his DNA against evidence that was found at the crime scene, it wasn't a match. That was maybe by design, though, because before leaving, the intruder did tell the woman that he had planted evidence to mislead authorities, whatever that meant. But he was never like confirmed through DNA to be involved in that one. Which that alone is an insane piece of information. Yeah. You're planting fake evidence. Wow. Yeah. Eventually the FBI noticed all of these similarities between these cases. And it's

enough for them to at least issue a press release. On July 13th, 2015, they announced that Matthew Mueller has been charged in connection with Denise Huskins kidnapping. Afterwards, Denise and Aaron hold their own press conference. While they're relieved Mueller is finally being held accountable, they also haven't forgotten how they've been treated by authorities. They say the Vallejo PD owes them an apology. It takes another few weeks for the Vallejo police to come to their senses a little, if you call it that. The chief of police sends letters to Aaron and Denise apologizing for the department's comments. But he isn't taking full accountability. He writes in this letter, quote, While these comments were based on our findings at the time, they proved to be unnecessarily harsh and offensive.

End quote. Doesn't sound like an I'm sorry to me. No, it's like such a backhanded apology. And while he admitted this kidnapping wasn't a hoax, he refused to publicly apologize until Matthew was indicted. Which is insane to me. And maybe it's a personal preference. It's a botched apology, so it counts. Watched apology. It counts on my list. I mean, after the comments that were made, the wasting of resources, you owe us an apology.

The doubling down in the wrong direction because they wanted to prove that they were right, even as evidence like the video of Denise being sent to them was coming to light. Yeah. Yeah. The bare minimum was a genuine apology. Yeah. You want to be political in how you say it, sure, but it should be public. Not this letter privately. No, and that's exactly what Denise and Aaron felt too. It was still kind of hard for them to get only that as an apology, but they felt that at least the law was finally on their side. And on September 18th of 2015, Matthew Mueller pled no contest to the Dublin home invasion. And three days later, he's arraigned for Denise's kidnapping. Come October 1st, he's indicted by a federal grand jury and charged with one count of kidnapping. He's not sentenced until two years later. though on March 16th, 2017. And that's when a judge gives him 40 years. And he was 37 at the time, 38, 39-ish. So he'll be late 70s, early 80s. That's good, Matt. If he serves the whole time. During the proceedings, Denise and Aaron read victim impact statements that are online, you definitely can read them. They're really impactful. Very powerful. But by then, they were not the only ones that were looking for justice. Because remember, there were two other home invasions that happened in

2009, the one in Mountain View, the one in Palo Alto. Well, in December of 2024. Yes, we were jumping in time to last year, like six months ago. The Santa Clara County DA brought forth additional charges against Matthew Mueller for those crimes as well, finally. And a month later, in January of this year, 2025, Matthew pled guilty to those. And in March, he was sentenced to two consecutive life terms for home invasions with the intent to commit sex crimes in Mountain View and Palo Alto. It is, it's interesting that like he did commit a sex crime and a kidnapping and that wasn't a life sentence. But then the home invasion with intent to commit sex crimes was a life sentence. It's interesting. Our legal system. Sentencing can be kind of like

finicky like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's just wild. Yeah, I don't always understand that. And so I wanted to include a little section here before we wrap this up because we talked a lot about Detective Mustard. In this case, he was the one saying the wild claims about sexual assault victims and really like leading the charge in Aaron being guilty and then Denise being a liar. And so I just wanted to have a little pop quiz. See what you guys think about maybe what he's up to today. Because I looked into this guy and I had to see what he was doing. So pop quiz. After it comes out that Detective Mustard got everything wrong in this case, do you think he, A, was fired from being a police officer? B, had to go to training to unlearn some of the beliefs he had about sexual assault victims, kidnapping victims,

women, etc. Or C, continued to have a career as a police officer that was heavily defined by other scandals. I'm going to go with option C. It was C. It was absolutely C. So I just wanted to run through a quick list of other things that Matt Mustard has been accused of as a police officer. Like this is just stuff that's come out throughout his career. Subjective information. So first off, he was named officer of the year in 2015, which was the year he investigated Denise's case, which is also the year it came. out that he was wrong about Denise's case. Beyond laughable.

Officer of the year. Later on, he would go on to push for lower promotion standards within his department so that he could get promoted to sergeant. And that is because he was unable to pass a written portion of the exam he needed to take for a promotion. So he pushed for that bar to be lowered so that he could get promoted. The bar is underground. It's underground.

You have standards for a reason. Yes. Do better. Yeah. Or don't become sergeant. Well, he became sergeant. He also was accused of making racist comments towards black officers. He was accused, this one really gets me.

He was accused by a forensic pathologist of pressuring her to fit the facts of an investigation to his theory of the case. So he showed up to a scene where someone had choked on their food and the husband was there and was like, oh my God, I don't, like this woman choked. This is devastating to me. And Matt Mustard asked the forensic pathologist, quote, what will it take for you to call this a homicide? Oh my God. Literally asking her to her face, like how can you massage this? So it looks like he killed her. He's trying to make anything fit for homicide.

Absolutely. And then one time he also lied about the evidence in a sexual assault case so that he could attribute that case to the wrong person rather than finding the actual perpetrator. And I just wanted to include a footnote here because I know this will make us all feel better. But in 2021, he made $263,000 for his salary. And in 2020, he made $274,000 for salary. This man is a menace. society. Yeah. He is not protecting and serving. No. He needs his badge revoked. But then there's

like Detective Carousou in this case who cared so deeply and really came at it with an open mind and was willing to work with the evidence that she had to piece everything together and go through old crimes from 2009 and really build out the case in a way that she found the guilty person. So like there's bad guys in this case and there's also good guys in this case, which is important to remember. And I want to add to that she was promoted to lieutenant. So the good guys did kind of win in this as well. Okay. Yeah. Makes me feel a little better. Yeah. There is one other thing I do want to point out with this investigation that I just find very odd. There is actually an FBI agent who worked on this case, Agent SESMA. This fact really, really disturbed me. This agent had actually dated Aaron's

ex Andrea. And Andrea has already been like very involved in this case. She's never publicly spoken about it. I don't want to drag her further into it because it wasn't her responsibility to state this conflict of interest and take themselves off the case. That was Agent Sezma. Like that was such a conflict of interest and he never should have been working on a case that seemingly at the time might have involved an ex of his. Like that is so inappropriate. He should have accused himself. But as far as I know nothing, you know, disciplinary happened to that agent and still working for the FBI. Wow. I didn't read about that. There's a lot with this case. It feels like there's kind of a lot of loose ends and people have a lot of theories. There's still

quite a few mysteries to explore because, you know, if we think back to Aaron and Denise's early statements about what happened, they felt there were multiple people in that room. Yeah. And right. So when they looked into Matt Mueller's house, they found that blowup doll. And so investigators started thinking, well, he probably brought the blowup doll with him. And that's what everyone thought was like the second person, quote unquote. But reading Denise's book, like she goes into detail about the other people in the house. Like she saw four legs, like two sets of legs when she was like laying down on the ground. She could see that there was another person there. She could feel like you were bringing up how like Matt was bringing her down the stairs. And she could feel. You were bringing up how like Matt was bringing her down the stairs.

and she could feel another person walking up the stairs. Like Erin talks about hearing footsteps in other parts of the house while Matt is talking to them. But no one else ever spoke. There's no like verbal confirmation that someone was there. Yeah, there was another source I saw too where Denise recounted hearing a car drive up at the cabin too. But Mueller was already inside seemingly. And we don't know who those people or that person would be. No.

And I mean, I do think they were. They're right. Like, I don't, I don't think you can just imagine that or a blowup doll can replace people's feet walking or brushing past you. So that is another part of this case that is very just mind blowing. It's very eerie. It's just, it leaves you with a lot of unresolved feelings. Yeah. And another thing that some people feel is still unresolved is like Matt's backstory, because there is that elaborate story that he told Denise. He mentioned something about being this like black market like actor, like some sort of belonging to some sort of black market operation. And we know that that's a total lie. It was maybe some paranoid delusion that he was having.

But it turns out that he was maybe wanting to get a payday out of this after all. Because remember he asked for the $17,000 for Denise and he didn't get that because they were already investigating. And during and after the crimes, Matthew has always maintained that his goal was to get the money. That was the whole motivation behind this. But while he didn't actually get that ransom from Aaron, he didn't seem overly concerned about getting it or not getting it, which really makes investigators think that he wasn't actually in it for the money alone. And there's another strange detail in all of this. And this is something like we've talked about a lot.

It does seem like he actually was there for Andrea. Like he wasn't there for Denise. When he put the headphones on them when he was kidnapping Denise, the pre-recorded message she was hearing was using Andrea's name. It wasn't using her name. Like, hi, Andrea, I'm going to be doing this, da-da-da, which is just so strange. And it would make sense if, you know, he lived a block away from their house. You know, Aaron and Andrea, from sources I saw, bought that house together. Right. And then after the breakup, you know, resolved it. But if that was his neighbor who he saw, it could make. It could make. makes sense why he targeted her. And they were both blonde. Like maybe he didn't know that he wasn't going after Andrea, that it was actually Denise. He was kind of known for casing out the, like, outside of the houses of his victims before he would attack. So maybe he had been doing that with Aaron. You know, another thing that they held against Aaron was like when he and Denise first got together, Andrea was still living in the house. So there was a little bit of overlap where,

like, maybe she hadn't moved out all that long ago from when Matt was like planning his attack. We can at least say one thing in all of this when it comes to Matt Mueller is that at least justice was served. That's like the one nice thing that's come out of this. Yeah, absolutely. By 2016, Denise and Aaron were still waiting for that public apology from Vallejo Police Department. And the more time passed, it seemed less likely that they were going to get it. So in March 2016, they took matters into their own hands. They filed a federal complaint against the Vallejo Police Department and sued for defamation.

The lawsuit says, quote, Because of the police department's allegations that Huskins kidnapping was untrue, their reputations were tarnished and they were forced to move out of the town where they had worked. They were able to subpoena text messages and get records between the former police chief and a former Vallejo police captain, where the chief, Bodeau, had instructed the captain to delete messages from his cell phone that directed Park, who was one of the main spokespersons during this to, quote, burn that bitch in regards to Huskins. Clearly there was a case here. I mean, there's a lot that went down as we've discussed. Yeah.

And luckily, two years later in 2018, Denise and Aaron won the lawsuit and were awarded $2.5 million total. And their story has an even happier ending. A few months after winning that lawsuit, Denise and Aaron got married. They actually invited their lawyers, detective carousso, everyone that kind of made them able to have this life together. Today, they live in Monterey County, California and have two daughters. I know one of Denise's and Aaron's daughter was born on the anniversary. Denise was released. Wow.

And she talks about this quite a bit. She says it's kind of this new chance for her. It's really, it has a lot of meaning for her. Yeah, that's symbolic. Very. As we've mentioned, they also wrote a book about their experience called Victim F, which was published in 2021. Yes, and buying it is a great way to support Denise if you're able to. Hi, guys. So we actually recorded a totally new outro for this. We reached out to Denise, and she was willing to come on and talk with us and update us where she is at.

So we thought we would include this little tidbit from our conversation where Denise really gets into some of the advocacy work that she's been doing these last few years. years. Check it out. Thank you so much for hopping on with us. Like we were talking about this all morning. Morgan and I have been texting about this for days, just how excited we are to be able to talk to you. I guess where I kind of wanted to start was we have your book here. We loved reading it. This was really a case that was like so misinterpreted and misconstrued to the public from the beginning. There was this whole narrative that was spun that was like completely wrong from what was really happening. But like in the last few years, you've done such an amazing job of like reclaiming that narrative. You have the book. There's all the work you've been doing recently, giving your

talks. There's the documentary where you're speaking. Can you kind of talk a little bit about what it was like to make that decision to start reclaiming the narrative, like how that all kind of came to be? Yeah, I think even really early on, Aaron and I would talk about how we would share, if we would share, when we would share. And considering how it was also publicly misrepresented over and over again, even after Mueller was caught, there was still incorrect narratives about what was going on. We knew that the best way to really share the entirety of what happened is by writing a book. Because we saw news reports and the 2020s and datelines and all the things.

And no matter how well intention they may be, they have to. edit, they spin things. It's all very sensationalized and we knew that the truth of what happened to us would never be fully represented it unless it was given through our voices and through our experience. But that process took a really, really long time. You know, we didn't speak publicly, do a public interview until three years after the kidnapping. And that's because we had to wait for the criminal cases and the civil case to come to a close. And that's what I think a lot of people don't understand. about the reality of how these real life cases and situations happen. I mean, at first we were being threatened with prosecution.

And so we were with our defense attorneys preparing to go to court to defend ourselves. And so, of course, you can't speak publicly preparing for that. And then Mueller gets caught. And then it's all of a sudden, okay, well, now we need to focus on the criminal case. And we don't want to speak publicly about anything that could then derail the sentence that he's going to get. And then we had the civil lawsuit against the Vallejo police and similar reasons. You know, we need to wait for that to play out. So once we settled with Vallejo, and we also, too, it was, it was supposed to stay private, but then we saw that I think people on their end were leaking

stuff with the narrative of like, oh, they're taking taxpayers dollars away when it was them who did that. So we knew we wanted to at least do an interview and we decided to do it with 2020. But then that was it. You know, we then waited and the next three-year process was figuring out how to write a book and figuring out like how to find a co-author that would help represent what we went through. And it was hard. Like we had one co-author that we were going to work with that wanted to make it into like a psychological thriller and give Mueller a voice. And it's like that is absolutely not what we're wanting to do with this.

and I don't even want to claim to know what's going on in the sky's head. And that's not, and so much of like true crime and how these things were portrayed, focus so much on the perpetrator and like highlighted the perpetrator and sensationalized them. And for us, we wanted to show the victim's experience because most people go through some kind of trauma and it impacts every aspect of their life. And so we really wanted to not just show like all the bits of the, violent crime, but what like the human aspect of dealing with it and then trying to come through it and basically start a whole new life. And I think a lot of people could identify with that on some level.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's so important. You came out and told your story through your own words. I mean, the book, the documentary, it's, it's important you did. And as our team was kind of doing research, I mean, there's still sites and articles out there that have not. posted corrections to things. So I'm just kind of curious if from your perspective, if there's anything that journalists and media outlets could do better when reporting on cases like yours. Yeah, I mean, the culture of journalism has shifted so much because it's very much about like the 24-hour news cycle and clicks and likes and followers. And I mean, even at the federal sentencing for Mueller back in 2017 and we stood up there and we gave our victim impact statement.

And the court was dismissed and like reporters are sprinting out to like be the first one to tell the story. And you're just kind of like, I mean, really, there's a human aspect to what you're reporting on. And I think it's important for journalists to remember that because it's, it's real life, you know, suffering that's that you're playing a role in and you can be influencing. And it's important to remember that you're not going to have all the information. So being very careful about how a story is being presented. But that's, again, where it's like really tricky because to get people to like binge watch or whatever, like they need those big swings. Yeah.

Even in the documentary that we did with Netflix, there was still that like kind of bait and switch of did Aaron do it, did I do it thing. And the goal is to get people engaged and to keep watching. So it's hard as like a subject. to have to like kind of compromise, not kind of fully compromise and understand that dynamic because the whole point of trying to advocate for change and show like systemically the issues that so many victims face is for people to be aware of it. And for them to be aware of it, they need to be entertained on some level to be able to keep watching or listening.

And so it's it's just like a hard reality of. of that aspect of it. So again, that's like why we feel good that we've got the book as like a resource so people like can get the information there. But then, you know, it's, it's helpful to try to to get it out on obviously Netflix is a huge, huge network. Yeah. So I mean, I think it was like 70 million views or something all around the world. Oh my gosh. And people all around the world are going like, I've experienced something like this too on some, in some version. So, you know, it's, there's positive and negatives of it all. Yeah, was that like even as you were doing interviews with 2020, like as you're first coming out and telling your story, was it a thing where people

were maybe promising you, oh, we're going to tell this version of your story and then you're watching it back and they've edited it or they try to make it more salacious. Like it wasn't really the version you were promised. When we finally agreed to do 2020, we, I mean, we had like, we spoke into all the major networks and we were trying to be very selective about who we worked with. And we made them work to basically like sell it to us. Like we're going to do by you. And some of that was them telling us like some of the behind the scenes investigative work that they were doing. And so when we finally sat down for an interview with them and had those conversations, I think that they did a good job with it. Early on in 2015, there was an initial

a date line, I think of 48 hours, and like all the things. And none of us or our families spoke on those and for all the reasons I said before. And those were not great to say the least. Yeah. And it's hard because like your instinct is to want to like scream and shout and correct the narrative and go out there. And then you get reporters basically trying to manipulate you and be like, now is the time to tell your story. No one's going to be interested in a few years time. And So they try to get you to speak on their time, what works best for them. And thankfully, like, we had good attorneys to turn to. We had each other to turn to and our families. And we were just in there. And I talked about it a lot. And we're like, we're just going to wait on it. And it needs to be right for us,

for the case. And so I think it was the best choice to wait it out so then we can really vet people and figure out the right direction to go. Yeah. It's really important. And I mean, you're, you're, really described kind of this rock in a hard place of like you want to do the advocacy and get your story out there but like also having to buy into a little bit of the entertainment factor and I mean your Netflix documentaries that's the first time I'd even heard about your case so it really did do amazing work of getting the word out there and correcting the narrative and giving you this platform to then make an even bigger impact which kind of leads me to my next question about the science based interviewing

kind of since March of 24, I think. You've been speaking on this science-based interviewing. You just did a symposium in Lake Tahoe a week or so ago. I'd love to know a little bit more about that. Like, first off, like, what is science-based interviewing? What does it even look like? Yeah, so like you were saying, I mean, one of the best things about the documentary that's coming out and being on Netflix and having that exposure was we finally got people

in law enforcement. interested to hear from us and asking us to come and speak. And that's all we wanted from the beginning, you know, I think initially because we sued the police and everything and spoke openly about what happened to us. People's knee-jerk reaction is like, oh, they're critical of police, therefore they're against police. And that's absolutely not the case. You know, Aaron's brothers and FBI agent. And so we wanted the chance to like sit in a room and have a conversation with them. And so one of, um, this chief of police invited us to come speak in Monterey County. And we jumped at the opportunity. And then the El Dorado, DA of South Lake Tahoe, where I was

held captive. He was there and he invited us to speak at the science based interviewing symposium last year. And so then he invited us again this year. And then we've had a number of different other, um, conferences that we've spoken at, um, often like sexual assault conferences. And I mean, for science based interviewing. It was when we went last year and sat in and watched, it was like one of these bittersweet moments were like, wow, this is so great that they're doing this, that they're training people in a different way than how Aaron was interrogated and how I was treated. But at the same time, like with our experience in physical therapy and our training and education in physical therapy and understanding of psych, like hearing them talk about psychology, like basic

psychology was kind of like, oh my God, like why is this revolutionary? Like, why is this revolutionary? Like, why is this? I mean, they get a lot of pushback and a lot of resistance. And so they're really trying to crusade for change. But like, it just seems so very lacking in progress, you know. So I, again, I was like encouraged to see the changes. I mean, the biggest differences and just like the shortest summary is that the idea is that you treat people with respect and dignity. And people will be more likely to want to open up and talk to you if you do that. Whereas like the other. ways, the old outdated ways of interrogation. I mean, Aaron was isolated in a room, kept from his family, in an air-conditioned room, windowless room. He didn't have his keys, his ID. He was lied to. He was manipulated. He was left alone for hours. And then they came in. And the primary goal with that outdated training was they go in with a guilt presumptive mindset. They believe that he is guilty and that they're going to go in there and do whatever they can to break him down and get him to confess. Of course, in his situation would be falsely confessing.

But it happens because you're broken down psychologically. And a lot of people break down within like hours. And Aaron was interrogated for 18 hours. I mean, what was like the most terrifying thing for me when I heard about how Aaron was interrogated and treated? I saw so many parallels to how I was treated in captivity. again, like the isolation, the manipulation, the threats, the degradation, stripping you of your identity and your worth, and you are powerless to these people who

have control of your life. And I just don't think that that should be how, you know, people, the good guys should be treating people to get what they're, what they want. So the science-based interviewing is, again, just like, don't lie to them. Treat them with respect and dignity. try to understand where they're coming from. So like from a religious standpoint, from a cultural standpoint based on their past experiences and their life, don't make assumptions, you know, again, the outdated interviewing is under this belief that you're a human lie detector and you can

tell if someone's lying by like the direction of their eye gaze or how they're sitting and holding themselves or then like using a polygraph, which is pseudoscience. So it's just looking at the research and human behavior and psychology to interact with suspects. Yeah. Does the training for this then include a bit more psychology than someone in law enforcement would typically get just to become an officer? Like, does that become a big part of this? Yes.

And that's another thing that it still kind of blows my mind that some baseline of psychology isn't taught from the beginning. And I don't know the exact curriculum, and I'm sure it changes from local to federal, but I feel like you're dealing with people who are going through a trauma. They're going through the worst moments of their life, whether they're the victim or the perpetrator. So I think you should have a little understanding of how trauma impacts the human brain, the human body, and that dynamic of human behavior. Like, I feel like that's just that should be entry level. It should be basic. Yeah.

Yeah. So it was nice to go to the science-based interviewing, and I'm like, oh, good. There's actual psychologists up there talking. Like, that's great. And it should be a multidisciplinary approach because it's, there's no way that any one group of people or discipline can handle all the things. You know, from a legal standpoint, from, you know, I mean, they need the tactical training. They need to be able to defend themselves and be trained with weapons and, you know, how to take control. but the de-escalation part and having people feel comfortable, again, whether it's a victim or suspect,

you know, victim's not going to speak to you if they don't think that you're going to protect them, not just physically in this moment, but like after through the court process, you know, are you going to value what they're going through emotionally? Yeah, I was telling Morgan earlier, my cousin is like in the middle of cop training right now. He's like doing the six-month program to become a cop. And so I've been talking to him about the things that he's learning. And he's like ex-marine. He's like super well trained.

But he's like, Kaelin, I am in class with people who have never fired a gun before. So we have only six months to go through this. And we have to teach the basics. Like we don't have time to be. And then you have to learn the specific laws of your area. Like there's just not enough time to go through psych courses and interpersonal relationships. And like trauma informed. Trauma informed and like EQ and that stuff.

And to me it seems like that kind of training is something that you don't, you shouldn't just do once. Like hearing your story, it seemed like a lot of the officers you encountered too were like maybe part of it is just being jaded from working at that force for so long or whatever it is. But it seems like a type of training that it would be useful to do every few years as like a good reminder of how to behave and do these interrogations in like a more interpersonal way, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, obviously it's tricky to like integrate all those things, you know, but I think at least something, at least a class a little bit, like, you know, 10 minutes a day or something of like, you know, this is a little bit of psych. This is what you might encounter. This is why, you know, people behave differently. Again, it keeps them safe too. Yeah. To understand how other people might react and respond. And then you can gauge your decision making based off of that. One thing I wanted to ask too is, like, you guys encountered some really awful officers who were, like, painting totally wrong pictures of what was happening. But there were also detectives and officers in this story that really wanted to solve this case and, like, really did some good detective work and, like, brought justice. So I was wondering if you, like, if you guys were able to tell kind of in the moment when you're talking to, to this. someone, are you able to get the sense of if they have your best interest at hand? Like if someone

that's listening was ever like interrogated, do you feel like that's something you can have a sense for or are people, do you just have to kind of wait and see eventually if like the person you're talking to is actually going to like advocate for you? Well, hmm, I mean, our case was, I don't know if it's different, but it, you know, I spoke to Huntington Beach police for an hour and a half. And then the first phone call interaction from the lead detective in Vallejo is offering me a proffer of agreement, which would be immunity. You know, so I'm going into, and I have to get a criminal defense attorney. And then even just the interactions of trying to set up, sitting down and being interviewed by Vallejo police, like they were really dismissive. They wouldn't, they refused to

set up a SART exam until I went in to talk to them. They went on national news. to say that this was all a hoax and we were liars. So I didn't trust anything that was given to me. No. Yeah, right. It's crazy because you don't, like, hearing you tell it, it's like, we know it was that quick, but like it was genuinely that quick where you're getting, oh, here's immunity. It's like, what? And then that's the thing, too. It's like, then it's fun that I'm going, I'm lawyering up. I'm going to get an attorney. And then that's supposed to be some stamp of guilt. But of course, law enforcement doesn't tell media. But by the way, we offered her a legal offer. I don't know what that means. Of course, I'm going to get an attorney. I think that does kind of play back, though, to your question,

Caitlin. It's like, how do you get a read of like, is this a safe space? Can I, can I, you know, present my story? And I think that goes back to, you know, what you're saying about this science-based interview. And it's like, if you treat people with this basic dignity and just, humanity from the jump. Like, you are creating that safe space. And it, I mean, it feels like it should be a common sense approach, but it's obviously not. But it would be easy to see how that would instantly lower someone's defenses and maybe get the conversation to a better, more honest, open space. Yeah. Yeah. And I had just spent two days in captivity with someone who was surface level polite, but stealing my body, threatening my life, threatening my, you know, my loved one, my loved ones.

Like the entire time was like him trying to manipulate me like in the politeness was so obviously fake. And just to try to get a certain response from me. But I had no choice but to play along with whatever his game was or because I was trying to get out of the situation alive. And so then I go and I speak to the authorities. And I'm sitting there. And thankfully, I have a criminal defense attorney next to me. So, like, I don't, I feel like some measure of safety. Like, someone's, you know, looking out for my best interest.

But, like, these officers and detectives, like, I felt the same energy with them that I felt with this, the perpetrator. And that's where I think that old type of interviewing and interrogation and having that manipulation and, and having that manipulation and, and lying and deceiving, like people pick up on that. But they're the police or the FBI. So being in that seat and seeing it, you can't be like, well, you're full of shit because they're the person that you're turning to for help. There's nowhere else to go. So they inherently have that power over you.

And I mean, that's what happened with Aaron. He's like, this is crazy. And he didn't ask for an attorney for 18 hours because he's like, I need them to help. And so then that's just where it gets really complicated and messy. And obviously it put them in complete wrong direction. And then they just put their blinders on and refuse to look at the evidence and see anything beyond what they believed. And that's like another piece of training that I think would be really helpful. Again, it doesn't have to be like in depth, but continuously telling people entering this field, like you have implicit bias.

Every person has their own biases based on where they're. grew up, what their life experiences were, and you need to understand on some level what those are when you're going to interact with all different kinds of people. And that's where it's hard because if you don't have that baseline understanding and you go into a department like Vallejo who have these season officers who've had this mindset for decades and like this belief that like, yeah, I can go in there and I'm going to be the guy who gets the confession and all of that. I mean, it really changes how you're going to operate and how your cases are going to be handled. Absolutely.

I think a culture of a place, I mean, you can have one good apple put in a bucket or basket of others. With a culture like that, a negative culture, it could really impact it. Yeah. Did you feel like the officers had a very specific idea of like what a woman in your situation, like how they would. behave or obviously there's tons of myths about like sexual assaults about like sexual violence against women like yeah could you feel that bias in the questions you were being asked yeah i mean i kept i had told them all like in the beginning like what happened the night of the home invasion through captivity the trunk of the car like the assaults how that happened what was said what was done

why i did what i did like every step of the way and then even after all of that i get asked by like the lead FBI agent. So you're like, oh, he should be well trained. He's like, yeah, yeah, but did you scream? And I'm like, no, no, did you fight? Well, no. Did you think about it? Well, yeah, I thought about it. Yeah. Like, I've thought about every possible thing that could get me out alive, but based on the circumstances, this is what I had to do. Right. And years later, like talking to an expert and crime behavior. She was telling me about the fawn response. So there's fight, flight, freeze.

And she was like, you know, there's another innate defense, which is to fawn, which is when you're trying to like befriend or pacify the abuser to keep you from more harm. And that's what I did. Like sometimes, especially as a woman, like, I'm like, and I even told this to police. I'm like, I know, like, I go running with Aaron. I can't keep up with him. I run, but I'm not a fast runner. I know I can't outfight a man, and here I am being drugged and threatened.

So like what good choice was there other than like let's just try to minimize the damage and see it. Like I don't want to provoke this person and give him a reason to kill me. And so I use the only weapons I had available, which is to be empathetic and compassionate towards him and hope that he chooses not to kill me. And like you see it in domestic violence cases. I mean, this is not uncommon. This is not unheard of. It's very under-talked about the fond response. Yes. It's, you know, you hear fight or flight. They don't.

I've never once in my life been like, oh, I could fight or I could run. Like, I always feel like I should just pacify the situation. And I think so many women feel that way. From a sociological standpoint, I think that's in culture. And I think it's, yeah, it's very common. Yeah, I mean, it's ingrained in us because that's, I mean, that's just, that's what we've had to do. So it's hard when a group of men have this idea of how you should respond. I think I was asked too, like, did you urinate in the trunk? And I'm like, no. And then I'm thinking, oh, my God, should I have? Yeah, what? What? You know, like, should I, is that mean, is there something wrong with me? You know, all these questions made me question myself. And like, did I not do this correctly? And, like,

you know, I'm sitting there in the SART exam, the, during the rape test, going like, God, and maybe I should have fought back. So there was more obvious injuries for them to believe me. But then at the same time, I know that if I did that, I can't trust where that violence would have led. Of course. Yeah, you're like putting yourself at risk. You don't know what this person's capable of. So you're not going to do anything to put yourself in more risk. And just it's so frustrating.

Yeah. I mean, it is a crazy, crazy line of questioning. But I think it speaks to that implicit bias. they very clearly had and how maybe a victim should respond rather than what reality actually is. I'm kind of curious since doing all of these symposiums and, you know, talking about this technique, what has the response been? Are people ready and willing to take this on and learn? Like, what does that look like? Has it been pretty positive? Yeah, everyone is very positive directly to us. I don't, you know, I'm sure there's a group.

that is not. But in general, you know, at least what I tell myself is I'm going into a training where they are trying to learn and do something different, hopefully. And I'm sure some of them are being told to go to these trainings and maybe there's some resistance. I don't know. But in general, we get a very overwhelming positive response and people who've been like working on this for decades and getting all the resistance and push back and then hearing

a speak and they're like, oh, I'm re-energized to keep this fight going and this is why I'm doing this. And so that all has been like really, really encouraging and rewarding and to feel like we're not on the outsides, but we can actually like connect with people within law enforcement and see if we can like work together to make a change. But yeah, they're working against a lot of those biases and that cultural dynamic as well. No, I think that's so amazing. I hear from like my friends in law enforcement and even friends in medicine. Like one of the hardest things can sometimes be the fact that like your relationship with the victim ends after the investigation. So you don't ever get to see the long term effects of how the crime affected a victim. So I think even you just

being able to like have a continuous conversation with these people so they can see like if we do small things at the beginning, it can have a huge impact on this person's overall quality of life for the rest of their life. Yeah, absolutely. That's like one of the things that we talk about in our in our talks is everyone plays a pivotal role in the victim's experience and what you do and say matters and how you treat victims. And two, it's really important if you help victims feel safe and heard and understood so they can feel safe enough to participate in the court process because that process is incredibly difficult and retramatizing and revictimizing just in it of itself.

So, you know, you're not going to get anywhere if the victims don't feel comfortable to come and report and don't feel safe enough to continue on. Yeah, I think it's been nice to see your relationship with Misty too. I, like, saw your story today, and it was Auntie Denise is so good at face painting. And it is really nice. And your kids are beautiful. I just want to end, you know, kind of wrap this up with where are you at today? You're still practicing PT and, you know, anything else going on right now? Yeah, I mean, it's been a decade since the kidnapping.

So life still continues, still moves on. Aaron and I got married in 2018. Yeah, congrats. Thank you. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's an incredible gift to have a partner that can understand you and flexible with you and, you know, like there's some days where, like, he takes charge and is a strong one and other days it's me and other days it's us together. And other days we're just like, okay, we're done. Yeah. So it's nice to not have to like over explain and just have someone see you for who you are and accept what you're going through. And yeah, we, we welcomed our first daughter, Olivia, on March 25th, 2020, which was five years to the day that I was released from the kidnapping, which is like an insane full circle moment.

And then we have our second daughter, Naomi. And so right now they're two and a half and five. And I mean, they are our world. You know, it's parenting is crazy and amazing. And they're just hilarious, like just to see their little personalities and their dynamic and interaction. And I have Olivia and martial arts and encouraging. I love that.

Yeah, definitely. I love that. that aspect. Yeah. And I'm doing self-defense and boxing and, you know, I mean, it's emotionally helpful, but also physically helpful. Still working as a physical therapist, both Aaron and I are. And so, like, our day-to-day is just like any normal parent, which is lovely. And then, and then we have these little moments where we go travel and speak to law enforcement and hope that we can make some, some difference. You definitely are. Yeah. Naive or something, but, you know, you just like hope that if you go through something awful, that

somehow you can give it a positive spin and, and help other people through their own issues as they move forward. So that's what we're trying to do. And I think it'll encourage other victims to come forward and continue the conversation with law enforcement. And like, it's just so positive overall, because if you have this whole course of people that still want to stay involved, still want to speak and educate, like, you just can't ignore that. And I think that's going to bring about hopefully some, like, amazing change in the future. Well, I hope so. Yeah. Thank you for that. I think it is. I mean, even seeing your posts on your Instagram, I mean, you talk so, you're so open and so vulnerable.

And I think, you know, I just read your Mother's Day post talking about PTSD. And I think you are just such a good person for anyone to, you know, look to for strength. and you sharing your story has, I think it has made a big difference and I think it will continue to do so. So I again, just want to say thank you so, so much for taking the time to chat with us. I know it's not an easy feat to rehash some of these things, but it is so appreciated. Do you have any tips for maybe agencies that want to get involved in this? Like I know, you know, a lot of police organizations do have continuing education requirements. And so do they reach out to like a certain organization or how can maybe a listener get involved if they want to?

Yeah, I mean, there's so many amazing foundations and organizations that focus on the trauma-informed training. I mean, that's, I think, really, really important. We've met a lot of people in law enforcement who do different training. So like the trauma-informed training, the science-based interviewing training. We spoke last month at In Violence Against Women International. It's a conference that housed people within law enforcement, but then also, survivors, prosecutors, judges. So there's a lot of opportunity out there to connect and make change. I think just being aware and listening and just being open to having those conversations.

Thank you, again, truly so much for jumping on. I feel like I learned so much just from talking for the last like 40 minutes with you. So this is so great. I think our listeners are really going to get a lot out of this. Tell Aaron we say hi. We're telling everyone to. buy the book and really like to hear the story from your perspective. I think that's the most important thing and it seems like the book is probably the best way to do that. So yeah, just wanted to really say thank you so much for jumping on. Yeah. And for anyone out there who wants to follow along with Denise's journey, all of her links will be in the description of the show notes. Her Instagram highly recommend following you share some amazing, amazing things on there, especially all

your conferences and symposiums and things you're working on. So be sure to check that out, you guys. but Denise, thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate it. Well, that's all we have for this case. We do just want to thank Denise again. Everyone, be sure to check out the book by Aaron and Denise, Victim F. And you can follow the show wherever you get your podcast. We are also on Instagram at Clues Podcast.

And thanks for joining us on this one. At Crime House, we value your support. Everyone, be sure to share your thoughts on social media. And remember to rate, review, and follow clues to help others discover the show. All right. That's all we have for this week. We'll see you next week. Bye. Bye. Capture your favorite summer feeling with Pandora jewelry.

Discover a collection inspired by the sunshine, freedom, and moments that make the season unforgettable. From sun-kissed metals to personalized pieces, ready to be engraved with your summer mantra. Each design moves with you, from beach days to golden nights and every memory in between. Shop Pandora jewelry's new summer collection. In-store. or online at pandora.net and let your summer unfold. I'm Dr. Herneybot, host of Hidden History. Every Monday, I go where history gets uncomfortable, banner civilizations, doomsday prophecies,

and events that science still can't fully explain. Follow Hidden History Now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.