Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore - The Trial of the Summer: The Case Against Lindsay Clancy

Episode Date: September 30, 2026

On a January night in 2023, Patrick Clancy left his house in Duxbury, Massachusetts to pick up takeout and a medication. What he came home to would put his wife at the center of the most watched trial this summer. Because Lindsay Clancy was a labor and delivery nurse who'd spent years guiding other mothers through the hardest hours of their lives, and who knew the warning signs better than almost anyone. This episode Sabrina and Kaelyn follow the clues: a psychiatric record of escalating prescriptions and a patient who kept asking for changes. A husband who testified for the prosecution and asked for mercy anyway. And a jury sent out to choose between murder and manslaughter. By the end, the jury still couldn't agree on any of it.Head over to our Clues YouTube channel to WATCH this episode: https://www.youtube.com/@CluesPodIf you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Clues to never miss a case! To hear episodes ad-free and released a day early, subscribe to Crime House+. Join at crimehouseplus.com or if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, tap “Try Free” at the top of this show’s page. Clues is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios.🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to other Crime House Originals including Crime House 24/7, Crimes Of Reddit, Serial Killers & Murderous Minds, Murder True Crime Stories and more wherever you get your podcasts!Follow us on SocialYouTube: @CluesPod | @crimehousestudiosInstagram: @cluespodcast | @CrimehouseTikTok: @CrimehouseFacebook: @crimehousestudiosX: @crimehousemediaClues is hosted by Kaelyn Moore Instagram: @itskaelynmooreTikTok: @heartstartspoundingEpisode Sponsors:Save up to 61% off with free gifts with code CLUES at https://www.gruns.co Get started now at ⁠⁠https://www.HelloAlma.com/CLUES

Hi, everyone, it's Vanessa Richardson. Real quick before today's episode, I want to tell you about a show I host with Forensic Psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels. It's called Serial Killers and Murderous Minds. Every Monday and Thursday, we take you deep into the psychology of the most chilling murderers and uncover what drives them to kill. Follow serial killers and murderous minds, available wherever you listen to podcasts. This is Crime House.

The case of Lindsay Clans, is probably the most hotly debated true crime case of this year. We're going to get into it today. We heard your comments. We've prepared a lot for this. We're going to get into what the defense says, what the prosecution says, and ultimately why the case might have ended in a mistrial. Hi, welcome to clues where we sneak past the crime scene tape to explore the key evidence

behind some of the most gripping true crime cases. I'm Kailin Moore, and I'll be the one digging deeper into the timelines, the backstories, and the court files released for these cases. And today I'm so excited to welcome my very good friend and host of Crime House's newest show, Crimes of Reddit, and co-hosts of Two Girls One Ghosts, Sabrina Deanna Roga. I'm very excited to be here. If you love falling down the Reddit rabbit hole as much as I do, I can guarantee you will love Crimes of Reddit. But yes, today I will be joining you, Kailen to talk about the evidence, the clues, and the internet theories of the Lindsay Clancy case.

Also, don't forget to share your thoughts on social. You can follow us at Clues Podcast on Instagram. Want ad-free and early access to clues in the rest of the crimehouse lineup. Subscribe to Crime House Plus and get at least two bonus episodes from across Crimehouse every month. To join, go to CrimehousePlus.com or if you listen on Apple Podcasts, tap try free at the top of the clues page. Now, let's get into the case of Lindsay Clancy and the trial and the clues that defined it.

This is a big one. It's a big one. I feel like we need to maybe address the listeners before we dive in. We know that this is the most fierce. debated true crime case of this year. We've done so much research into this case. We hear you guys. I've heard from so many of you that have wanted this case covered on clues. And so what Sabrina and I are going to do today is we're just going to, we're going to go through the trial. We want to go through the facts of what we have. We're also going to do some point-counterpoint

to some of the theories that are out there. A lot of theories that maybe you guys share. My goal in today is not to change anyone's mind. I kind of want to just lay out. exactly what was happening in this trial and in this case so that we can all maybe understand a little bit better why this ended in a mistrial. We totally know that not everyone's going to agree with everything on this case. It is, it is something, I mean, I live in Massachusetts. Yeah. I live in Boston where the case, I mean, it's not in Boston, but it's 30 miles south of where I live. And so like, it's impossible to live in Massachusetts and not know about this case. Yeah. But it has It's opened up so much debate and discourse that it's polarizing.

So we know that. We know people have opinions. Very strong opinions about this case. And it's hard. I think like I do, I think I respect everyone's opinions because I know why people feel so fiercely about this case. Like I off the top will admit to the audience. Like I'm being treated for postpartum depression and anxiety myself. I hear you and what you say about this case.

It's postpartum. is a crazy, crazy time in your life. I know. I thought about you a lot while prepping for this episode because I think anyone who has children can see themselves in Lindsay Clancy or in this case in some regard. Yeah. And I want to talk about that as we go through the case. I'll talk about that a little bit too because my experience has been so wildly different from hers. And I want to respect that as well that like what Lindsay was going through is very different from my postpartum experience. and a lot of others postpartum experience. It's like an entirely different thing.

And so, yeah, during the research, I was just trying to make sense of it. We're going to get into that today. Before we do, you might notice that our set looks a little bit different. We did do a little bit of a redesign here. It's very cool. I really love it. I love it. I love the little Victorian flair that's very me.

It's very you. So I'm excited for that. We also wanted to mention, so we have a brand new botch board back here. For this case, Sabrina and I were talking about it before we started recording. I think we did a lot of research on this. We're going to be pretty locked in as we go trying to parse through everything. We might just ignore the botch board for today. This is also one where I think it's hard to keep score in any regard on it.

Yeah. But I am very curious, listening to the audience, what you guys consider botched, where you feel like the medical industry failed, Lindsay, where you feel like the police failed, where you feel like the prosecution or the defense failed. I'm always curious to hear from you guys. You can comment wherever you listen. And with that, shall we? Let's do it. So just a quick reminder before we dive in today, you're going to see some pictures, some videos, nothing too graphic on YouTube. And if you are listening, you can find all the same assets, pictures, videos, maps, and stuff on our Instagram. That's at Clues podcast on Instagram. And also this episode contains discussions of child murder, suicide, self-harm, child abuse, and serious mental illness, including postpartum psychosis. So please listen with care. So we're going to start today.

on Tuesday, January 24, 2023, in Duxbury, Massachusetts. A little beach town in Cape Cod Bay, about 35 miles south of Boston, the opposite direction of Sabrina. A place known for his historic homes, excellent schools, and a lot of money. There, 34-year-old Patrick Clancy and his 32-year-old wife, Lindsay, have lived in Duxbury since 2018 in a three-bedroom house that's on Summer Street. He starts the morning with their two younger kids, three-year-old Dawson, and almost eight-month-old, Callen while Lindsay takes five-year-old Cora to a pediatrician's appointment. Dawson gets dressed by himself for the first time he picks out his own clothes. Patrick texts Lindsay a photo and she sends back one of Cora at the doctor's office. When they get home, Lindsay takes over and Patrick heads

down to his basement office. They text back and forth all afternoon, mostly photos of what the kids are doing. Around 4 p.m., Lindsay searches her phone for a children's laxative and for takeout from a local restaurant called 3V. Just before 5 o'clock, everything we're going through also we have cell phone records of, I will say. So just before 5 o'clock, we have a text asking about ordering in. Lindsay says that she didn't cook because it's been a long day, and she tells Patrick that she's going to call in the order while he gets ready to pick it up. Around 4.48 p.m., records show that she calls a CVS in Kingston to ask if they have a specific constipation medicine for children. At 510, record show that she called 3V and orders risotto and a Mediterranean Powerball.

At 5.15 p.m., Patrick heads out, and Lindsay asks him to stop at that CVS to pick up the constipation medicine for Cora, and he asks her to text him exactly which one, and then he leaves. CVS is a three-minute drive away, and he goes there first. From their call logs, we know that at 5.33 p.m., Patrick calls Lindsay from inside of the store. It goes to voicemail, but she calls back a minute later. He tells Lindsay that they're out of the medication she asked for, and he asks if it's okay to get a different kind. And there's also CCTV footage of Patrick at this time in the CVS in that aisle. Yes. And we have records of these calls while he's at the CVS, and we have them on camera there. He notices that she's quiet, but he assumes that she's just busy during this phone call.

she ultimately tells him that the other medication is fine, and they hang up. This whole conversation lasts a few seconds. A receipt shows that he buys a laxative and a pack of skittles inside of the CVS, and surveillance video shows Patrick at 3V at 5.54 p.m. He picks up the food, and he pulls back into his driveway 10 to 12 minutes later. And when he arrives home, he notices that the house is quiet, silent. Which is strange for a house where there's three children. Phone records show that he calls.

Lindsay's cell at around 609 p.m. But there's no answer. After this, we don't have concrete time stamps for a little while. We just have Patrick's recollection of events. And according to Patrick, he searches the house for Lindsay and the kids, but again, it's all quiet and he can't find anyone. He finds the bedroom door is locked. And upstairs, there's blood. He describes it as sprayed almost like with a hose. He can tell, too, that the window is wide open on the second floor leading outside. He runs outside and he finds that Lindsay is on the ground with cuts on her wrists and a wound across her neck. By 6.11 p.m. records show that Patrick is calling 911. That's just two minutes after he called Lindsay's cell phone looking for her. He tells the dispatcher that he just

found his wife in the backyard. She's injured but conscious. Then he says he needs to check on the children and as he stays on the line, he goes inside. Moments later, the dispatcher hears him screaming. they ask what happened and Patrick yells she killed the kids. The police arrive a few minutes later while Patrick is still on the phone. And this is the one major piece of evidence that has not been released to the public is the 911 call. But everyone who was in court that day did hear it. And even just like hearing you talk about it makes me emotional. Because I can't even imagine everyone who was in court said it was like the most harrowing. All the adult men in the room started crying. I know that. Yeah. People. couldn't listen to it. I don't even think Patrick was in the courtroom when they replayed it because he couldn't handle it. So let's take a moment. I want to rewind just a little bit and talk a little bit more about who the Clancy's were before that day. So Lindsay Musgrove, her maiden name, was born on August 11, 1990 in Wallingford, Connecticut to a happy family. She had two parents and an older sister. In high school, she was an honor student, a cheerleader, an athlete, and a member of a club for

teens interested in health care careers. And college was more of the same. She went to Quinn Keak University, and she made varsity cheer team and the deans list there. She graduated in 2012 with a biology degree, and she moved to Boston for nursing school at the MGH Institute of Health Professions. Patrick was already in Boston, and he was building his own career in telecommunications. Patrick had grown up in Situet, Massachusetts, and a house on the shore that's about 25 miles southeast of the city, and he came from this big, I mean, it's such a classic Massachusetts family, big, warm Irish Catholic family.

Yes. His parents were a plumbing contractor and a nurse practitioner, and he was, by all accounts, close to both of them, and to his two sisters, and he had more than 40 first cousins. But Patrick liked to get away by himself sometime, and with the ocean behind his house, it was very easy. He was very passionate about sailing. He had been into it since he was young. He went to Salve Regina University in Newport, Rhode Island, and he made the varsity sailing team there. And after graduating with a business degree, he moved to Boston, and he took a job with a telegraphy. company. Then in the summer of 2013, when Patrick was 25 years old, one of those many cousins

introduced him to her roommate, and that was 22-year-old Lindsay. They hit it off immediately. He brought her to meet the family after just a few dates at a big Fourth of July party on the beach, and they agreed on everything that mattered. It seemed like in this first meeting that they had. They both wanted to have a lot of children. I mean, that's something that comes up a lot in this case is Lindsay talking often about wanting to have a lot of children. Both of them were raised Catholic. I mean, I'm sure you know plenty of like Irish Catholic families in Boston. A lot of them have big families. And the two of them wanted to stay in New England. They got engaged on New Year's Eve, 2015, after a little over two years of dating. And they married in December of

2016 with a Christmas themed reception. They settled in Weymouth, which is southeast of Boston, and they were expecting a child not very long after first moving in. Cora arrived on Christmas Eve of 2017. And while Lindsay was starting her own family, she was helping other people start theirs. She was a labor and delivery nurse at Massachusetts General Hospital. And she, everyone says that she loved this work. Yeah. Patients and colleagues loved her.

They had a lot of really nice things to say about her. But I'm sure there's a lot of working moms out there that can understand this. Balancing a nursing career with a newborn is hard, if not impossible. So Lindsay was especially interested in, they call it attachment parenting, so things like prioritizing breastfeeding over formula feeding, things like emotional responsiveness, early bonding. She went part-time because of this. I mean, it's really hard to breastfeed while you're working. Yeah.

She was working mostly night so that Patrick would be home with Cora while she could work. They had this baby monitor. I mean, one story I read of Lindsay, like early on in this first postpartar period of hers. They had this baby monitor where Lindsay could watch it on her phone while she was at the hospital. And I've heard lots of people tell me to not do this because it just feeds your anxiety. You don't need to be watching the baby all the time if there's another adult watching the baby. But I also understand why you would want to do that. So she would check it while she was at work pumping. She would just watch it. And there was one night where she was watching Cora cry and Patrick wasn't going to

take care of Cora. And it had been something like, I think some are. report said that it was just five minutes. Like, Cora was crying and Patrick didn't respond. And, yeah, she tried calling him. So she starts calling him and calling him and then he doesn't pick up and she calls the police to do a welfare check. Like, that's how intense this anxiety was. A lot of people around the Clancy seem to think that they were just normal first-time

parents figuring it out. Like, I don't think anyone was necessarily concerned about her behavior at the time. Right. In July of 2018, when Cora was about seven months old, they sold their Weymouth house and they bought one about 22 miles away in Duxbury. It put Patrick back on the shore and it put the kids in one of the highest rated school districts in the entire

country. And it also gave them a faith community because they became parishioners at Holy Family Catholic Church. And it also gave Lindsay a 35 mile commute to her job, which could take 90 minutes in rush hour. That made day shifts

basically impossible. She's not going to spend three hours in the car. One baby was hard. The family still wanted more. Then Dawson was born on September 30th, 2019, 21 months after Cora was born. And in 2020, during the pandemic, Patrick took a job at Microsoft that allowed him to work from home, which meant he was there the second his workday ended. But he was working in the basement at a job that needed his full attention. It's not like he was able to kind of dip out and help out with the children during the day. So Lindsay

would be home alone with the kids all day while he was working, even though he was just in the room next door. Yeah. Between the pandemic and the jump to two kids, they decided they were going to wait longer this time until they had another. But once Dawson was a toddler, they felt like they were ready for more. Callen, their third, was born on May 26, 2022. Both Lindsay and Patrick were able to take leave. Patrick took 12 weeks. Lindsay took 18. And in September, as her return to work date got closer, Lindsay started feeling more anxious. She began seeing a psychiatrist who extended her leave. They hired a part-time nanny, but in December of 2022, they ended up letting the nanny go because Lindsay decided that she was going to stay home for good.

She just couldn't go back to work. Yeah, with three kids. It's a lot. It's a lot. That month, Cora turned five, and Cora was like a very deeply social little kid. She loved princesses. She had a lot of friends. And she knew that she wanted to be a doctor and a mom, work in health care just like her mom.

So sweet. She practiced for the job by giving her baby brother pretend medical checkups. And Patrick was teaching her to ski. So they had this special bond from that. They would take these father-daughter trips. And at that point, Dawson was three. He loved Paw Patrol. He loved firefighters, trucks, and dinosaurs.

And he shared his toys very politely. And he told his family that he loved them constantly. So sweet. He also had this mischievous streak that was described. He would get in trouble often. And he kind of got out of it because he was a charming kid. But Callan was the easiest baby of the three children, pretty much from day one. His nickname was Happy Callan.

Patrick used to show him off on Zoom calls because he would be just parked in the baby jumper behind him. Like he could be on calls because he wasn't making a lot of noise. He slept a lot better than the other kids. And by almost eight months, he was just starting to talk. And he had this like amazing loud laugh. They can start belly laughing at that age too, which is really cute. And, you know, unfortunately, that is all that will ever know about these kids. Because by the end of January 2023, one month after Lindsay decided to not go back to work,

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That's g-r-un-s.co. Happy Halloween, Crimehouse listeners. I'm Vanessa Richardson. Did you know horror films like Abigail and Sinister were based on true stories? Join me every Sunday this month on Crimehouse 24-7 for Crime House of Horrors, where I dive into four stories behind some of our favorite scary movies. Abigail, the autopsy of Jane Doe, Sinister, and the taking of Deborah Logan, you'll find one thing in common. The truth is scarier than fiction. Listen every Sunday on Crimehouse 24-7 or join Crimehouse Plus for all four right now. Add-free.

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at CrimehousePlus.com. So this became a criminal investigation pretty much right away. I mean, Patrick said she killed the kids on the 911 call, so that's immediately what everyone's thinking as they get to the scene. Yeah. Quick warning for everyone listening, the scene is going to cover the victim's injuries. You can skip ahead if you'd rather not hear. So when the responders arrived, they hoped that they would have been able to save all three kids. Cora, Dawson, and Callan had all been strangled with exercise bans around their necks.

First responders tried everything to resuscitate them. They tried CPR, oxygen, defibrillation, into. epinephrine straight to the heart, and also advanced cardiac life support. And just one small note, when Patrick did find the children in the basement, he unwrapped or removed the exercise bans from the children's necks. Which we get into that too because that comes up in the trial. There's a little bit of murkiness over the way in which they were unwrapped, which actually plays a huge part in the culpability of Lindsay. Absolutely. So definitely want to get into that more because that's

really important in this case. Cora's heart never restarted. Eventually they did have to stop. It was the same thing with Dawson. But Callan, who was almost eight months old, was still showing signs of life. And they were able to fly him to Boston Children's Hospital. He was unconscious and he had signs of catastrophic brain damage. Doctors put him on life support, hoping that this would help, hoping that giving him some time,

it could help him a little bit. He made it through the night and he was still alive the next day, January 25th, when the Plymouth County District Attorney announced charges against Lindsay Clancy. It was two counts of homicide, three counts each of strangulation and assault and battery with a deadly weapon. After three days, doctors determined that there was no hope for Callan and he was taken off life support and died late on the morning of January 27, 2023. It's so sad.

So now it was charges for all three children. It was no longer two counts of homicide. It was three. And right after this happened, a family friend started a go-fund me for Patrick with a statement from him calling Callan his hero for fighting so hard at just eight months old and describing what was so special about each of the three kids. And this statement ended with something that pretty much no one was expecting. Patrick forgave Lindsay in this statement. He wrote, quote, She's recently been portrayed largely by people who have never met her and never knew who the real Lindsay was.

Our marriage was wonderful and diametrically grew stronger as her condition rapidly worsened. He also said, quote, the real Lindsay was generously loving and caring towards everyone. Me, our kids, family, friends, and her patients, the very fibers of her soul are loving. But people notice something in this statement. He said, as her condition rapidly worsened. He didn't say what that condition was. So people started wondering what was going on behind the scenes. Right.

This was the first public hint at what this whole case is going to lean on. Lindsay pleaded not guilty on February 7, 23, about two weeks after the killings occurred. When she said she was not guilty, she was not saying that someone else committed this crime and that it wasn't her. Instead, at that arraignment, her attorney, Kevin Reddington, told the court that he believed Lindsay had suffered postpartum psychosis and should not be held criminally responsible. Yeah. She was taking responsibility and accountability for the murders of the children. Yes. But her lawyer, her legal team, was trying to find her not guilty by reason of.

Yes. Yes. And I hear the voice of the internet in my head now as we're doing this part. But I want to talk about the two trials because this comes up a lot as a case against Patrick too. So Kevin Reddington initially wanted two trials for this case. You wanted the first one to be about. guilt or not guilt. And the second one to be like criminal insanity. Right. Criminal liability due to like reason of insanity. And so people really thought that like, okay, in the first trial, we're going to, it's going to be basically to prove that Lindsay didn't even commit this crime, that it was Patrick that committed this crime. But there's another case. I guess we don't know because Kevin Reddington hasn't come out explicitly and said why he wanted the two trials. But there is a theory that the reason he wanted it was so that he could parse out the evidence. If you have one trial, you have to go through all the evidence, show the pictures of the

children, show the exercise bands, have the first responders come in, explain what they saw, explain how horrible it. You have all of the grown men in the whole room crying and the 911 call playing. And Kevin Redington, one of the theories is that that evidence was going to be so damning against Lindsay Clancy that no one in their right mind would say, well, she was guilty by reason of insanity because this crime was so horrible. It was going to look so bad. for her. So what he wanted to do was one trial that said she was guilty. That way, they don't have to debate the terms of the deaths. It's been settled. The children died at Lindsay's hands. Now we can just instead get into her medical background in the like prescription she was taking. We don't have to go

through all of the graphic details again. And that is going to portray a much different portrait to a jury. That's one theory. But I know a lot of people, I know a lot of people say like, no, he wanted to, He wanted to say that it was Patrick. Kevin Reddington has come out and said that that was not the case. Yeah. Like he's come out and said that everything about Patrick is just a conspiracy theories. So after this arraignment, Lindsay doesn't go home. Instead, she has to stay at the hospital.

She doesn't go to prison either because she is in such bad shape after this entire event, after this entire suicide attempt. Yeah. That she has to be treated for these injuries. And I would kind of want to go through. now, like what she was dealing with. So she had cut both wrists and both sides of her neck. She also had taken a number of psychiatric medicines that she had in the house, and she went out of the second-story bedroom window. That fall broke her spine at T5 and T6. It's chest level. It's

not her lower back. This is really important. Doctors described the spinal cord itself as largely obliterated, and a spinal cord injury that high up in the back removes the body's ability to regulate its own temperature. So when she was laying in the snow in January, with no way to keep herself warm, and a major massive spinal cord injury, her temperature was 82.1 degrees Fahrenheit when it was taken at the hospital, not the normal 98.6. This is what I can't square, because people say, like, how could her body temperature be that low if the crime happened when they said it happened, like she must have been out there for hours. Right. But you also have an eight-month-old that was able to be revived. So he could not have had

something around his neck for more than a couple of minutes. Right. So I really don't understand how the crime, in that theory, I don't understand how the crime would have happened. Like, he killed Lindsay, then he went out to 3V and then came back and killed the kids. Like, it just doesn't really make any sense to me. There's also like scientific reasons as to why, like breaking your spine at the mid-chest. And if you're hypothermic as you're going to the hospital, your body temperature will continue to drop. It's something called after drop, which I learned about through this. Her temperature was taken over an hour after they found her. So there is a chance that it was still dropping. She had the spinal cord injury. Online were saying there's no way that Lindsay Clancy could have committed the murders

because her body temperature was so low. Right, right. She would have been out there for much longer, but the medical professionals don't think that that's the case. Yeah. But when your body temperature is that low, your heart can start losing its rhythm, and it was cold enough that her cuts had stopped bleeding on their own before help arrived for her. Cruise started rewarming her on that day as she was going to South Shore Hospital 20 miles away, but that was not enough. She was intubated there and transferred to the ICU at Brigham and Women's in Boston, and in the early hours of January 25th, Lindsay Clancy's heart stopped. She was revived with CPR and multiple blood transfusions. A physician assistant sutured the cuts on her wrist. And she was revived.

and the cuts on her neck were superficial, so they didn't need any intervention at all. Then there was the medication. So she tested positive for several prescribed psychiatric drugs. The most prevalent one was quatyapine, which is an antipsychotic that she knew as Syracwell. There was also apparently a mood stabilizer and an antidepressant in her blood, but the quatapine measured roughly 10 times below the level considered to be toxic. Yeah. Some of the other drugs came back below therapeutic levels, meaning lessen her blood than a person taking them as prescribed normally would have.

A forensic toxicologist named Justin Brower would later say, quote, usually people take handfuls of pills when they are trying to harm themselves and take their own life. This is not consistent with that. That is a huge part of this mystery that becomes a very big part of the trial is how serious was this attempt on her own life. Yes. If she didn't, you know, people say she was a nurse, she would have known her. how much to take. People say the way she took it because it was like crushed up in the lemonade that she was drinking or whatever. Like that's, someone else would have put it in there. It's like, I think to a lot of people, it kind of remained a mystery as to the amount that she'd

taken. But she also took different other measures to attempt to die by suicide. So I feel like maybe the pills weren't necessarily a suicide attempt. But I think the drug test that comes back does prove that Patrick wasn't poisoning her to like mind control, make her believe she killed the children. Because he had her medicine. And like the counterpoint for him having her medicine is she was taking so much medicine

that as she was done with pills, he would hold on to them so that there wasn't just like a ton of loose SSRIs in the house. So two days after her children died, a forensic psychiatrist walked into Lindsay's room at Brigham and Women's. Lindsay was still intubated so she couldn't speak. So she was able to write her answers down, though.

The questions that she was writing were not about the children or the police or what had happened that day, what had happened in the basement, what had happened to anyone. She asked, is my body broken, are my legs straight? And do I have an attorney? So people use that to prove that she knew what she was doing. Knew what she was doing. Yeah. But then there's the other side where it's like you don't know how you're going to react in a trauma response. or is she still in some type of psychosis?

Right, exactly. No one really knows. But I know a lot of people point to the third question being, do I have an attorney? Not what happened to my children as just being kind of strange. Yes. So when she was stable, she was moved to a psychiatric hospital. At that point, she's using a wheelchair.

She's paralyzed from the waist down. And, you know, she hasn't walked since that injury happened. But Patrick didn't go home either. He stayed with his parents and sometimes stopped by the house where, like, his children, died just long enough to grab packages off the porch. Eventually, he sold the house. He filed for divorce against Lindsay in February of 2024. He traveled for a while. He settled in New York City, and he started a new relationship. And Patrick Clancy remarried in the spring of 2026. Which I do want to call this out because online, people are like, he remarried a year later immediately.

And then it led to online conspiracies of like he was having an affair. Yeah, that he was having an affair. I didn't realize until I looked at the research that he wasn't having an affair. No. He, that comes up a lot, though. He remarried three years later, and also statistically, men do move on quicker. They do. Yeah, that just happened in the episode re-released this week on Celeste Beard. Yeah. People in the comments even were like, yeah, men just, they remarried really fast after tragedy. So Patrick got remarried this year. Both sides spent the next three years preparing for what has become one of the biggest trials of the decade. Yeah. And on July 20th, 2026, 35-year-old Lindsay Cleary

Nancy's murder trial began. It was held in Plymouth County Superior Court about 40 minutes from the house on Summer Street. And to every morning of this trial, the jury watched the same thing happen. A court officer would wheel Lindsay in. She didn't have any handcuffs. She didn't have any shackles. It's very unusual for someone on trial for murder, but there was no need to, they felt, because she was in a wheelchair. She sat at her defense table beside her lawyer, Kevin Reddington. And a lot of people bring up how before the trial even started, people in the jury were able to see the effects of that night. They were able to see a woman in a wheelchair and clearly something had happened. So already it's psychologically doing something to the jury. Yeah. To the defense, this was proof of how

badly Lindsay Clancy wanted to die that she injured herself bad enough to fracture her spine. And to the prosecution, this same thing is now evidence that she didn't actually want to do it. And we'll get into more specifics there, but I think it's just really interesting how the prosecution changed their argument a couple of times on this point specifically. Exactly. That's why analysts covering the trial started calling the wheelchair a silent star witness. And it didn't take long before other, like, hotly debated topics started coming to light. So before we dive in, I think it's important to kind of lay the legal groundwork for what the trial was based on because even before we dove in today, people were asking us like, why isn't she just in jail? And the answer is because it's a very specific law in Massachusetts.

That is even the reason that this trial happened in the first place. We kind of want to get into that. So first I want to talk about what the jury was actually asked. They were not asked, did Lindsay Clancy commit this crime? Again, that was not up for debate. Yeah, both sides agreed that Lindsay strangled. all three children on January 24th, 2023, even her own defense attorney believed it. Lindsay said she was guilty. A lot of people say that the only person who heard Lindsay say she was guilty

was Patrick. That's not true. Lindsay and Patrick are involved in two suits right now, both of which have written that Lindsay killed her children. Like in Lindsay's own filing of that lawsuit, it says that she killed her children. There's not really debate over that, at least like Lindsay doesn't debate that. Which I do think it's interesting and reading the, because Lindsay and Patrick have separate civil suits, and because in this trial, the Lindsay can't, Lindsay Clancy murder trial, she didn't testify as a witness. Yeah. As most people on trial don't for themselves. But reading her civil suit, it is her story. It's her testimony. And it's really interesting to read. Yeah. Yeah. And it's another suit where, you know, she comes forward and says exactly.

what happened that night. Yeah. Both sides do agree, though, that Lindsay was struggling with the mental illness at the time, even though the prosecution sometimes it doesn't seem like they believe that, which we'll get into. The entire case came down to one question, and that was how severe was the illness at the moment that she committed this crime. Massachusetts is one of only 11 states that puts the burden of proof on the prosecution when a defendant raises a lack of criminal responsibility, what most people call the insanity defense. So this can apply to any case where a person's mental health stops them from controlling or comprehending their behavior and actions during the crime. That includes during a psychotic episode.

To convict, the state has to prove that either she wasn't struggling with a mental illness or that she was dealing with her mental health, but still, quote, retained the substantial capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness or criminality of their conduct and to conform their conduct to the requirement of the law. What does that mean? It's a lot of jargon. Yes. So conform their conduct, I think, is the big phrase within that that carries the most weight. Did Lindsay Clancy know what she was doing was wrong? In most states, if the person doesn't know what they were doing was wrong, for instance,

if they're in a schizophrenic episode and they think that they're saving their children from hell, so they kill their children. Like Andrea Yates, I was going to say. That's brought up a lot. She was in a mental health episode where she did not know right from wrong. She thought what she was doing was right. therefore you can have the insanity defense, especially like in the state where she was convicted. That's not the case in Massachusetts. You can know what you were doing was wrong. You just have to

prove that you didn't have the ability to stop yourself. And you brought it up earlier because this also applies to like child predators in Massachusetts where like child predators can come forward and say like, I can't stop myself when I feel this impulse towards children. And in that case, it's pretty much unanimously ruled in Massachusetts. It's like you are of sound mind to stop that impulse. there's no excuse for what you've done. Yeah. So they're going to have to prove that she couldn't stop herself. And this law exists kind of specifically for cases like Lindsay Clancy.

Yes. Yeah, because they felt like it was too, they felt like the other version was too harsh. There's so much nuance. So much nuance. I mean, we're seeing it once Nick Reiner goes to trial in California because it's similar out here too. Like they have to prove not only did he know killing his parents was wrong or like that he was mentally ill, but like he, knew what was wrong. Yeah, it gets so complicated. If they could not prove both halves beyond a reasonable doubt, then under Massachusetts state law, the jury must find her not criminally responsible.

This has nothing to do with personal feelings about it. This is the law. This is the way the law's written. Beyond a reasonable doubt. Whether you like it or not, it's the way the law's written. Yeah. And she, after that, goes to a psychiatric hospital, not a prison. So as we continue to go through the case, keep that in mind. Did she know it was wrong and could she have stopped herself at any point? Which brings us to kind of the first piece of evidence in the trial, Lindsay Clancy's mental health history. Lindsay was never officially diagnosed with postpartum psychosis or postpartum depression or anxiety before the killings. And this is a very important, big part of the case. And I do want to point out there is a major difference between postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. PPD, so postpartum depression, is pretty common. It affects one in five new mothers, whereas postpartum psychosis on the other hand only affects one to two women out of a thousand women. That's a big difference.

Wild. And most of them also don't kill. Correct. Yeah. Correct. I also, I didn't know this until researching it. Neither diagnoses are. in the DSM-5, which is the diagnostic manual for, it's like the Bible for psychiatric diagnoses. I know. That's so interesting. Right. So they are not recognized as mental health conditions. So then I found that sometimes clinicians will diagnose postpartum depression actually as major depressive disorder, which Lindsay Clancy was diagnosed with. And sometimes postpartum psychosis is diagnosed as bipolar 1 disorder. which Lindsay Clancy was multiple times, like multiple doctors, tried to diagnose her with bipolar two disorder.

Yeah, right. Which just has milder hypomanic episodes paired with major depression. Yeah. But in regards to the case and officially in her medical documents, Lindsay Clancy was never diagnosed with either postpartum depression or postpartum psychosis. Which is, yeah, wild. Wild. But legally, that doesn't just settle it.

Okay, so here's what we do know. After Cora was born, Lindsay did show a lot of anxiety about the baby's health, but did not seek treatment. So the story you told about in the beginning where she was watching Cora on the baby monitor, Patrick didn't answer. She called the police who did a mental health check. Like that's something people, they even address that in the civil suits. Yeah. As like a sign or a symptom of postpartum depression and anxiety. But she did not seek treatment.

after Dawson, who was born in September of 2019, she was elated and had a lot of energy. Patrick said she would show manic behavior, again taken from the civil suits, and that Lindsay felt a lot of pressure to stay active, was cleaning the house obsessively in an effort to control and simplify her life. But it is after having Dawson that she starts talk therapy. But she didn't find it helpful, so she stopped going.

A provider did offer her Zoloft and prescribe her Zoloft, but she declined it because she was nervous about how it would interfere with breastfeeding. And I made a note here in the script because Zolov is safe when you're breastfeeding. Talk to your doctor about it, absolutely. But if you're nervous about breastfeeding and taking an SSRI, there are safe ones to take. Yes. So she turned that down. But again, it's another sign or this is what they're saying in the civil suit and then also the defense says in trial, that there is indication of her having some type of postpartum

diagnosis. Yeah. And then when she got pregnant with Callen, there was other unusual behavior. So as some context, Lindsay was a college athlete, so she always cared about fitness. And at times may have taken it to a point of being unhealthy. She was jogging the morning she went into labor with Callan. I read, I could not believe that when I read that. Yeah. If my friend told me she had done that, I immediately would be like, are you okay? Yeah. There's one thing about, because we have a note here too, like you can run during the third trimester. Like it's safe. Doctors say you can do it. But the day before you go into labor, that baby is so low. Yeah. And it hurts. I felt like you could just feel in your hips the whole time. And so like to picture her on a jog that, like it seemed to me when I read that, I was like, oh, something was going on. Yeah. She also did something. called the miracle morning, which is a routine built around exercising and other self-help practices first thing each day, which I would say that's a healthy way to start, like have a routine. Yeah, totally. I mean, no one's going to flag a woman working out during her pregnancy. No. Her civil suit says her version went far past that 10 minute minimum that her routine calls

for. So again, it's like her own testimony saying that she was taking it too far. It says that she was getting up at 4 a.m. to run three miles and then do another hour of cardio all before the kids woke up. Doctors pointed to that as a possible sign of hypomania, which is a symptom of bipolar disorder, which can lead to psychosis. And it also could be a sign of other types of psychosis. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. But then after Callan was born, she actually felt like she was handling things a lot better this time around. Well, because if you're in, if you are manic, yeah, you feel great. You're like, I'm the best mom that's ever existed. Like, things are going so well this time.

I'm just going to stay up all night and run three miles and do all this stuff. Like, you're not the one that gets to make the decision if you're manic or not. Like, someone else around you has to be like, something's not right. If she's waking up at 4 a.m. to 3 miles in the third trimester of her pregnancy with two other kids at home. And then, yeah, she gave birth to Call on and she, like, immediately started training for like a 5K and was running, got back into shape. But I also can understand how, like, Patrick or people around her at the time would be like, wow, she's doing great. You're handling it so well this time. Like you're in such better spirits than last time. Like, wow. And especially your third kid, people are like, your body's just so used to it at this point. You're just, you're ready to rock and roll and go for a run. Like, again, I could see how no one flagged it. Yes. In September of 2022, when Callen was about four months old is when Lindsay started reporting anxiety, insomnia, and exhaustion. And from there, it accelerated. And we're going to talk about some of Lindsay Clancy's medical treatments and the medication she took over.

over the course of the year, but it is a lot. She was prescribed a total of 13 different psychiatric medications across 30 different prescriptions from the time period of September 2022 through January of 2023. Was that four months? Yeah, and that is a lot. 30 different prescriptions and 13 medications. Yeah.

Yes. And she wasn't taking all of them at the same time. No. So we'll talk, and we can't do every single detail right now, but we'll talk about like kind of the main points that are brought up. So on September 15th, 2022, she entered psychiatric care with Dr. Jennifer Tufts. Every appointment was a 25-minute video call. They never met in person.

And I will say, as someone who's done a lot of mental health treatment and care, the shortest I ever had was with a psychiatrist. They're not getting into the same talk therapy that you would have one-on-one with a psychologist or a therapist. What stuff are they asking? They are asking more about where you are mentally. So I think she, with her first appointment, she answered the depression questionnaire, which she scored a 23 on, which indicated very, very high depression. That's basically answering every single question with the most points.

Yes. Because it's not a long questionnaire. No. So on her intake form, Lindsay listed anxiety attacks, decreased appetite, depressed mood, distraction, excessive worry, guilt, and inhibit. an inability to feel pleasure, an inability to fall asleep, and racing thoughts. So Dr. Tufts diagnosed her with generalized anxiety disorder and adjustment disorder with depressed mood. She prescribed Zoloff, which Lindsay started in October, and she did recommend that Lindsay

start therapy, talk therapy. Yeah. Because her job isn't technically to do that work. Yes. And I imagine she wanted someone to just check in, like weekly. you start this medication. Every week you're telling someone how you feel, how it's affecting you. Like, that makes sense. She started her Zoloft dose at 25 milligrams, which was then raised to 50 milligrams, which is standard. But right after the increase, Lindsay contacted Dr. Tuft to say she was getting worse, not better, and that she was worried about suicidal thoughts and that her insomnia was getting worse.

Yeah, and I made a note here too because this came up during the trial, but Zoloft, if you have latent bipolar, they say you shouldn't. take Zoloft. Yes. Or maybe any SSRI, but that was a thing where that can actually trigger it to be worse. So as she's saying that like the insomnia was getting worse, though I will say like one of the symptoms of Zoloft is insomnia. So Dr. Tuft did take her off the Zoloft and switched her to Ativan and again suggested that she go to a therapist. That same month, Lindsay wrote a note saying that she was quote, terrified of something happening to my kids or doing something wrong to mess up their development. So this is like in her diary. And again, that's like such a classic anxiety symptom in postpartum. Yeah. Where I don't even know that that would get flagged as like

an anxiety like, like is an extreme anxiety thing. If you're like, I'm terrified something might happen to my new baby that I gave birth to like that's so normal. That's so normal to feel that way. And also like I don't want to do something wrong to mess up their development. Like all over TikTok, it's like, if you say no too many times, you're going to like, that's going to stress the kid out. You have to find other words and no. And so you do kind of feel. this thing of like, oh man, is one small decision I make? Is that going to mess up their development forever? And so, again, yeah, it's like, it's hard to parse out, I think, if you're a jury, how

extreme the anxiety was. Right. Yeah. She also wrote in her diary about sleep training call on her, which seems to have hit her hard. She wrote, hearing him cry for one plus hours and not intervening just about killed me. I even said the words, I want to die to Pat while he was crying, which I'm sure a lot of parents can relate to that. Like, hearing your baby cry.

Yeah. Yeah. But then add on top of this that she's having a hard time sleeping, she's having suicidal thoughts, like she is trying to get help for this. By November 16th, 2022, her insomnia was bad enough that she went to an emergency room. They prescribed her trazadone, which didn't work. So after enough, medications failed, Lindsay started to believe that the medications themselves were actually hurting her and causing.

or making her symptoms worse. Which, again, could be paranoia, or it could just be that you've tried a bunch of different medications and they're not helping you. Yeah. On November 30th, she texted her mother-in-law, quote,

I am not okay, and I am terrified of taking meds tonight. Her mother-in-law was alarmed and acted. She helped Lindsay move her care to a nurse practitioner who specialized in postpartum mental health. So everyone around her is aware that she's not okay,

and she is asking. for help. This new provider stopped all the old medications and started four new ones, Prozac, which is an SSRI antidepressant, Ambien, a sedative, hypnotic, clonapin for anxiety and panic, and Remeron, which is an antidepressant. By the end of that month, another nurse practitioner added Sarah Quill, which is an antipsychotic too. In the civil suit that Lindsay filed against her providers, she said she started having auditory hallucinations after starting Sarah. heracle, though at first she took them as intrusive thoughts. She did not testify at the criminal trial, so that filing is the only account of these auditory

hallucinations that we know of. But defense witnesses testified that she grew steadily more paranoid through November and December. She believed the drugs were damaging her brain, but she kept taking them anyway, or she kept taking what she was prescribed, and logged every dose in her diary. By January, Lindsay Clancy had been on at least 13 different psychiatric medications in four months. And I don't necessarily blame doctors here. Yeah, I read a really interesting think piece from, I think it was a psychiatrist. Maybe I'll find the link and I'll put it as like a reading material for everyone. But the psychiatrist was saying, you know, we only know what you tell us. And a lot of us want to help.

You know, there are bad actors, whatever. But if someone's coming in, saying their symptoms, you give them medication, you don't expect that Zoloft, which is something so many people take and have wonderful responses to. It does the thing it's supposed to do. You don't expect that someone's going to have like this wild reaction and like increase their suicidal thoughts. And like, the big thing in this case is like did the medical industry fail her? Yeah. And Lindsay didn't tell them everything. Yeah.

There are points where she was having suicidal thoughts, but she didn't disclose that to her providers, but then called like the suicide hotline, you know, two days later. So on December 3rd, she wrote that she got about three hours of sleep, then laid awake all night with suicidal thoughts. She did call a crisis line that night and again the next night, and both times she asked to be hospitalized. On December 5th, she met with a counselor and learned that she didn't qualify. for inpatient care because she didn't have a specific suicide plan. And this might have been a place where she was failed. Yes. I agree. I agree. If we were due to the botch board, maybe this would be like the one place. Yeah. The most obvious one.

In mid-December, Patrick went with Lindsay to an appointment with the nurse practitioner. And this nurse practitioner, again, raised the possibility of bipolar disorder. Which Patrick answered with, quote, my wife is not bipolar. I this is something that comes up a lot in the case I understand why Lindsay and Patrick were so in denial of the bipolar diagnosis yeah I think a lot of people have a misconception on what bipolar is yeah they think it's like so high and then immediately so low and it can look a lot different than that yeah so I could see how someone's like is he not bipolar she's doing great this time around like right she's going for running for

and stuff. Yeah. But to a trained medical professional, they might be like, that feels like mania, even though to you, it feels like she just got her life together. But also, mania can be a sign of psychosis. So it's like... Right, right. Yeah. I know. I know. Again, very complicated. By December 20th, nothing had improved. So Lindsay again went to the emergency room, this time at the hospital where she worked. She was evaluated and entered an outpatient day program in New Hampshire for postpartum depression, but she still was not diagnosed with postpartum depression. She was discharged quickly, and they told her to stop taking the Sarahquil. She then met with her regular provider and agreed to taper off of the Sarahquil over time.

At the end of the month, she told her sister that she'd had suicidal thoughts every single day in December. Oh, my God. Her mother testified that Lindsay also told her she was having thoughts of harming the children. And maybe I missed this. But did she not tell Patrick that? I know for a fact she told Patrick that she was afraid something bad was going to happen to the kids. And she said this to her mother and her mother-in-law. And I think Patrick had asked her, do you feel like you shouldn't be around them?

Yes. And she said, no, I'm fine. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But I just can't imagine telling my husband I was having suicidal thoughts every single day and just being allowed to carry on as normal. Right. But they are trying to get her help. Like they are trying to get her. Yeah, I know.

that's why it's so frustrating to hear because it's like, well, what more can she do? She's seen all of these, she's gone to the hospital already. She's gone to the ER. She's called the hotlines. She's gone back in to talk to the psychiatrist and the therapist and like, and still, like, nothing. Oh, my God. On New Year's Day, 2023, Lindsay Clancy checked herself into an inpatient psychiatric hospital in Belmont, Massachusetts. A psychiatrist there diagnosed her with, quote, major depressive disorder severe without psychotic features. The same psychiatrist assessed her as low risk with no concerns about her safety or anyone else's. During this day, she denied any suicidal or homicidal urges.

So she didn't tell them during the stay that she had any. So she did withhold. Yes. Or lie. On January 5th, she was discharged a day early at her own request because she wanted to be back with her family. and she felt like she had gotten a few good nights of sleep. Yeah, after the insomnia.

She left with two new prescriptions and a plan to taper the rest of her medications. And this was 19 days before the crime occurred that she was discharged. Yes. Back home, she resumed virtual appointments with Dr. Tufts. And on January 11th, she asked about ketamine treatments, which is sometimes used for treatment resistant depression. Dr. Tufts suggested tapering one medication and adding another antidepressant. instead. A few days before the killings, Lindsay texted a friend about, quote, dark thoughts, but she said she had a plan to get off medication that she believed was causing the dark thoughts.

On January 23rd, she met with Dr. Jennifer Tufts for 17 minutes, and Tufts testified they mostly discussed her anxiety and a racing heart. The next day, on January 24th, Lindsay Clancy killed her children and tried to kill herself. So that brings us a little bit of the same. So that brings us to the second piece of evidence that was really heavily discussed in trial, her suicide attempt on the day of the murders. This was a major point argued on both sides of the defense and the prosecution, which we'll get into more specifics in a minute, but by the time Patrick found Lindsay Clancy, she had cut her wrists and her neck, taken multiple medications, and jumped out a second story window. Responding officers saw lacerations on both wrists, and

and her neck. She was on her back in the snow with a spinal cord injury that had knocked out her body's ability to regulate its own temperature, like you said, so she was severely hypothermic. She needed emergency care immediately, so Cruz started rewarming her on her way to South Shore Hospital 20 miles away, which wasn't enough. She was then transferred to the ICU at Brigham and Women's in Boston. On top of her other issues with her spine, she had internal bleeding in several places, broken ribs, and swelling of her thyroid. And the thyroid, so I made a note in here too, because the thyroid's a big part with the Patrick case. So a lot of people are saying her thyroid cartilage was crushed. That comes from, in the closing arguments, Kevin Redington said her

thyroid was crushed, which is not true. Every medical examiner said that her thyroid was not crushed. It was swollen or bruised. And also your thyroid and your thyroid cartilage are completely different. So that kind of like game of telephone became, oh, her thyroid cartilage was crushed, which is what happens in manual strangulation. So a lot of people started saying that like clearly someone had strangled her. It must have been Patrick. But that's not true. She didn't have any signs of manual strangulation. But I do see people talking about that a lot online.

Yes. So prosecution, from this point on, Sabrina's going to kind of summarize the defense and I'm going to summarize what the prosecution was saying. The prosecution witnesses testified that her neck cuts were shallow. needed no intervention, but some of the wrist cuts did need stitches. And a prosecution expert said that she hadn't taken even close to a lethal amount of her medications. The drug that she took the most of was the antipsychotic, that generic form of Sarah Quill. She would have needed 10 times the amount that she took to die, so it didn't seem like an overdose amount. And they argued that as a nurse, she would know more about medication than most people would. So the prosecutions read was that

this was a failed attempt at taking your own life due to ambivalence. Assistant District Attorney Jennifer Sprague, who led the prosecution, went further and suggested that Lindsay didn't jump at all. And so all that we know about Lindsay Clancy's jump, I hear the Patrick people being like, she was pushed out. But all we know about her going out of that window is blood spatter that was found on the roof. So they analyzed this blood spatter, and they said from the way it looked, it seemed as though, because of the way it splashed on the roof, it kind of seemed like someone maybe had their hands out for a little while, they guessed that she actually lowered herself down, that she crawled out of this window and

held on for a while, and then let go. So basically implying that she staged it and wasn't really wasn't even trying to get hurt at all and actually messed up and that's the reason why she had the injury. And this is a big part of the prosecution that's really hard to parse through is Sometimes it feels like they're arguing that she had no mental illness because they're trying to say she didn't want to kill herself at all. Yeah. She just wanted to kill her children, I guess. And then sometimes they're saying like, well, she had depression, but not the kind that you would kill other people over. The defense's version was much more simple. They said that Lindsay Clancy wanted to die and did everything she could to make that happen. Her injuries left her dependent on caregivers for basic things like showering. She has hated it so much that she started neglecting her own hygiene.

she did not want to survive, she did not expect to survive, and she nearly didn't. And so to the defense, the severity of that attempt was evidence of how unwell she was. But what does that mean for the two questions at the center of this? Did she know it was wrong and could she have stopped herself? Well, the prosecution says that her history shows that she was a woman in real pain, desperate for relief, but she was not psychotic. She saw many providers. She never told any of them that she was hallucin.

none of them ever saw cause to diagnose postpartum depression, let alone postpartum psychosis. And while the state acknowledges that she told at least two people that she was having thoughts of harming the children, ADA Sprague said that she didn't tell her doctors that. So to the prosecution, this shows that she knew her thoughts were wrong. She was specifically not telling doctors these thoughts because she knew they were wrong. And that she was thinking clearly enough to calculate what would happen if a doctor heard these thoughts, which indicates that she has some level of being able to. to control what she's doing if she can control not telling a doctor these thoughts. And at parts of their argument, too, it kind of seems like they're suggesting that Lindsay was doctor shopping, maybe to get medication that she wanted, or to kind of lay out this mastermind plan of like,

well, I went to all these doctors and they all said, like, it's unclear exactly what they're trying to say. Or to get a specific diagnosis or something like that. Yeah, yeah. But they say that all of this was like intentional the way she was going to the doctors and what she was telling them and what she wasn't. But I can also understand that if you're going to one doctor and you've got a medication that makes you feel worse and I would be like, okay, well, then maybe this doctor's not the right doctor for me. Yeah, it doesn't understand what I'm going through. Yeah. So that's kind of like the defense says opposite of the prosecution. They say that Lindsay was begging for help and nobody listened. Her attorney, Kevin Reddington, read an entry from her diary in court that said, quote, I want help. I want to be well. But nobody recommended the long term intensive. inpatient treatment the defense said that she needed. And again, the defense is a lawyer. It's not, they're not medical providers. So they're saying that she needed this, but it might not be what the actual doctor's thoughts. Yeah. And postpartum mental illness is badly underdiagnosed. A 2024 study found that one in two people with symptoms of postpartum depression got mental health care in the year after

birth, but only one in four was ever diagnosed with postpartum mental illness. Which does suggests that providers may be missing half the people who come to them with symptoms. As for why she never told her providers about the thoughts of harming her children, Redington blamed the system. He cross-examined Dr. Tufts. He wanted to know why she kept doing 25-minute video calls, but never once asked Lindsay to come in, to which Dr. Tufts answered that she didn't believe she was missing anything by seeing her remotely. In fairness, what did happen next seems like no one saw that coming. And it is really rare. rare. Because Lindsay says the day that she did kill her children was the first and only time she ever heard

a man's voice telling her to kill her children. You know their names, you know their faces, but you've never heard these stories. On Celebrity Ghost Stories, an A&E original podcast presented by Rewind Studios, you'll hear spooky stories directly from the actors, musicians, and athletes you love in their own words. What do you do when a spirit saves you from the edge of death? When a single night in a strange hotel ends with you running for the door, from angry spirits to haunted houses to unexplainable magic. These are true first-person accounts told by the stars who lived through them.

Follow Celebrity Ghost Stories, available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. She did report to her mom hearing auditory hallucinations like months prior, but she thought they were intrusive thoughts. But again, that's in the civil case. Yeah. So that is her own. Yeah, not being debated in this case. biased.

Lindsay Clancy, like most homicide defendants, as we mentioned before, did not testify in this trial so we don't have her account in her own words. What we do have pieced together from the people she told is our third piece of evidence. Patrick Clancy told a New Yorker that although he heard. forgave her immediately, he never contacted Lindsay in the hospital. In early February 2023, shortly before her arraignment, Lindsay called Patrick. And when Patrick picked up, Lindsay spoke fast and pressured in a voice that he said didn't sound like his wife. She told him that on the day of the killings, she heard a voice telling her to kill the children and then kill herself because it was her, quote, last chance, and she would lose

it if she didn't act right then, which to a healthy mind makes no sense. But she told pieces of her experience to other people in the hospital too, and so this fuller picture started to emerge. The hospital chaplain testified that one of the first things Lindsay said once she could speak again was, quote, I'm so glad my children are safe, which the chaplain took to mean that they're safe in heaven. But also, like, that feels like a mentally unwell comment. Well, yeah. I mean, when I first heard that, I was like, does she not even know what happened?

Does she think that they're still alive and at home? Right. Or did the voice tell her that that's the only way they would be safe? Yeah, right, right. Then Lindsay explained that on the day of the killings, she'd heard a frightening voice telling her that she and the children wouldn't be safe unless she obeyed it. She told forensic psychologist Dr. Paul Zizel the same thing and added that the voice was male. then it was Dr. Philip Resnick, a high-profile forensic psychiatrist who supplied the missing piece.

Because hearing a voice is one thing. Obeying it is another. Resnick consulted on the cases of Jeffrey Dahmer, theater Kaczynski, Casey Anthony, and Andrea Yates, who was found not guilty by reason of insanity after killing her children during a psychotic episode, which we referenced earlier. But he was confident Lindsay had two other psychotic. symptoms alongside the voices, a command hallucination, and a delusion of influence, meaning that she felt like she couldn't control her own body, like a puppet, with someone else holding the strings, and that she was under the power of some outside force that could make her do whatever it wanted. So this is how the defense is arguing the moment of the murders.

Yeah, that she had no control over what was going. Yeah. So the prosecution had experts come in to, and they saw this entirely differently. So their forensic psychologist, Dr. Kirk Heilbrun, evaluated Lindsay in April of 2026. He testified that he believed Lindsay has bipolar 2 disorder and that what she experienced were intrusive thoughts and not hallucinations. He described the killings as altruistic filicide, and that's what happens when a parent believes killing their children is in the child's best interest. In this case, she intended to die and didn't want them to suffer without her. So the altruistic philicide comes up in a lot of family annihilator cases where like

dads will financially ruin the family and be like, well, everyone's better off dead than like white lotus. Yeah, I don't want to like literally. I don't want to like embarrass myself. Or Andrea Yates, I'm saving my child from hell, even though that was psychotic. They're saying that this was just like an intrusive thought she had not actual psychosis. And a little bit more like a selfish. And a self, yeah, like a fully understanding what was going on and selfish motive behind it. Yeah.

He found her accounts of the voice to be inconsistive. And he said that her behavior afterwards was not what he would expect from someone who was in psychosis. The state also called Dr. Gregory Sadoff, a forensic psychiatrist who works with the FBI's behavioral analysis unit. And he found her accounts also inconsistent. He found when the voice started to be inconsistent, also when the voice stopped. He testified that the way she killed the children showed rational, sequential decision making. The children were killed one at a time. It was Dawson brought down first, and then it was Cora brought down into the basement next, and then Callin.

She carried each of these children away from the others to different spots in the basement. They said that, you know, it was Dawson first because he was the biggest, then Cora, then Callan. All of the children must have struggled, he said, and Lindsay continued going on. And based on his interviews with her, the voice stopped the moment she was done. Dr. Sadoff testified that a first-time auditory hallucination that begins right before a crime and ends right after a crime is incredibly unusual. So his testimony was actually, because there were a lot of times, like, going through the trial and through this case where, like, on my own opinion, switched back and forth, which I'm sure the jury could relate with. But this was one that I was like, oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.

And also how scary that just at any point one of us can be hit with this voice and, like, lose control of our body and do something. And they're also saying too because there's arguments over the way the kids were killed. We talked about the exercise bans. And we'll get into it more. There's arguments over if they were tied or if she was holding them. So to the prosecution, she's holding them. That takes minutes to do. She's very clearly like doing this in a calculated enough way that she should have been able to stop herself. But she didn't. So he said that it's also incredibly rare to have a command hallucination that dissolves the instant that you've done what it commanded. Which just because statistically it's rare doesn't mean it's impossible. Of course, of course.

It's just that like even the psychologists haven't. Yeah, seen that. Seen this a whole lot. And when he was asked about his experience, he testified that he's treated between five and seven women who killed their children. And for scale, it was a study of family mass murderers between 2006 and 2017. And it was a study that featured 163 family mass murderers and 13 of them were women out of the 163. Like, it is way more common for men to do this than for women to do it. So, and that likely makes Dr. Satoff one of the most experienced forensic psychiatrists in the world in this kind of case. Which is a great witness for the state to have called. People really took his testimony seriously on both sides. Yes. And this brings us to our fourth piece of evidence, the first piece of physical evidence

and the murder weapon, the exercise bands. So both sides agree, Lindsay Clancy used the exercise bands to strangle the children. But what they argue about is how she used them. And I will say, too, they don't argue about the fingerprints. That's another thing that comes up. People saying there weren't fingerprints on the exercise bands. They must have been wiped clean. There were remnants of fingerprints.

And other ones, they found ridges. But a lot of people think that they were wiped down, like someone did this and knew. It was like, no, there was partial fingerprints on it. there were, it's also just like a hard surface to pull fingerprints from. Then also the knife too that Lindsay had used to get her wrist and neck people said were wiped, but again, it was like the ridges. Yeah, the ridges of the knife made it really hard to get full. Yeah. Prince. Okay, so just content warning. This section does get a little graphic, so you can skip ahead.

This is another place where the prosecution did kind of change up their argument mid-trial. while cross-examining Patrick, they first asked how he found the bans, to which on the stand, he stated he did not remember, but on the day of the murders, he had stated that they had been tied like you would tie shoestrings. So the prosecution is like, do you remember saying that? And Patrick was like, oh, sure, yes. So off the bat, they established that the exercise bands were tied around the necks of the three children, which indicates that Lindsay tied the bands tightly around the band. the kids and then left. Which makes it, I mean, it's still a horrible crime. It's horrible. But it's different than watching your child die. Like holding them. Yes.

Later, though, the prosecution changed it up, claimed the bands were wrapped, meaning or indicating that Lindsay Clancy physically held the band around each child's neck. The defense says the bands were tied around their necks, tight enough that she could walk away within seconds, and the children strangled on their own. Patrick testified that he tried to save Dawson by pulling the band. off his neck and that he struggled to get it off, which indicates that it was tied around. And if she did tie a band around each child and walked away, that looks a lot more like what Dr. Resnick described, a puppet controlled by something outside herself. If Lindsay really did have a

psychotic episode that began shortly before the killings, then those killings couldn't be planned, is the defense's argument. And that's kind of one of the big pieces of this case. is the argument over premeditation. We already talked about the timeline. Lindsay sent Patrick out for takeout and the children's laxative. And he came back to find her in the backyard and the children in the basement.

The prosecution says that the whole errand was engineered to get Patrick out of the house just long enough for this crime to happen. And they showed the jury that Lindsay used Apple Map. They got really hung up on this. They showed that she used Apple Maps to map his drive back and check how long it would take before she sent him to do this.

ADA Sprague said, she already knows this drive. She knows exactly how long it's going to take. They had ordered from 3B before it was in their own neighborhood. So to the state, the only reason to check was to confirm how long Patrick would be gone. But, and this is something people talk about online, too, is like, if she had premeditated it and she wanted to make sure he was gone for a long time, she would have sent him further away. Further away. This CDS was three minutes away. She called and asked about the laxative.

Like, like, she could have sent him for something impotiv. possible at C.S. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Sprague said that Lindsay decided the restaurant alone wouldn't take long enough. And so I guess they do kind of try to say like she made the errand more complicated by saying you should also go to CVS and sent in there too just to keep them out of the house for longer. Right. Whereas the defense, their explanation was like, Lindsay had a long day with their three kids. She didn't want her husband gone for much longer than necessary, which does match what Patrick told the New Yorker in 2024 about their conversations afterward. He said he did ask Lindsay why she looked up the drive time, and she told him she didn't want him stuck in traffic.

It was rush hour, which is so traffic is a reasonable thing to worry about. I also, when I'm like looking, I search things on maps all the time. Even if you know the drive just to see how it's going to take. All the time. The prosecution countered that if she were genuinely worried about him being gone too long, she could have used DoorDash or pick up food somewhere closer. But that argument kind of works in both directions. She wanted the laxative for their daughter,

and if she wanted him gone for longer, she could have sent him so much further. Yeah. Our sixth clue or piece of evidence is the question of when exactly the children died. So Patrick called Lindsay from CVS at 533, and she didn't answer. Lindsay called back a minute later and sounded normal. The only odd thing was that she seemed quiet like she, was busy. So Patrick assumed that she was giving the kids a bath. And just as context,

which most people, you know, wouldn't really think about, but sounding quiet and distracted, alongside other symptoms, can be a sign of a psychiatric patient hearing voices. People experiencing auditory hallucinations often take a long time to answer because they're also listening to someone you can't hear. So during that call, they talked for 14 seconds. That's a very quick call. Like, it's just like he's making sure that that laxative is good and she's okay with it. She says yes. At 534, right after they hung up, Lindsay told the prosecution's expert Dr. Gregory sat off that she was standing at the refrigerator about to cook chicken nuggets for the kids when she heard a man's voice.

The voice repeatedly told her to kill your kids, then kill yourself, and that this was your last chance. Then at 538, about three minutes after hanging. up with Patrick, Lindsay's cell phone data shows that the phone went upstairs and stayed there. So the phone never goes up and down the stairs again after that, which to the prosecution meant that by the time Patrick called at 533, the children were already dead or they were being killed. Otherwise, ADA Sprague argued that you would see the phone going up and down the stairs as she carried each child to the basement. And if she made herself sound normal on the phone, after killing her three children, the state said that she's covered.

bring up a crime. She knew it was wrong and she's trying to sound like she didn't just do it. Yeah. But that doesn't necessarily line up with what Lindsay told Dr. Sadoff. She said that the voice started at 534. So that's after this call happens. And that would put the killings after the call as well. Mm-hmm. Which is why the state says her account can't be true. Because from the end of that call to the phone going upstairs is about three minutes. And the prosecution's own version of the killings, it takes, they say that she killed them by holding the band herself, it would have taken 30 seconds and then she would have had to keep holding it for a minute. So it couldn't have just taken three minutes for her to commit this crime.

But she also could have just left her phone upstairs. And that's exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. So either the phone tells you exactly where Lindsay was and what she was doing or Lindsay's timeline is wrong according to the state. And the state says that it's just that her timeline is wrong. But like she lied.

That she lied to basically to make it seem like she knew what she was. doing. And then the defense, Kevin Reddington, pointed out, knowing where a phone is, doesn't tell you where an owner is. Our phones right now are not with us. Oh my God. Yeah. In a house, you just leave it wherever. Yeah. You don't necessarily always have it on you. She could have gone upstairs, put it down and then gone back downstairs. And then gone back downstairs. Yeah. Yeah. There was like also because Patrick thought that she was having a, like she was bathing in the kids. And so they were saying like, you know, maybe it's just like in her routine. She goes upstairs. She puts the phone down. She gives them a bath. And so she just around 530 like every day just goes upstairs and puts her phone down. Yeah. have been as simple as that. Yeah. So there was a second device in that house, and this is another point of contention in the case, and that device tells a little bit different piece of the story, and that's the Apple Watch that Lindsay would wear. So the last heart rate reading came at 523 p.m.

That's where I showed that Lindsay had 57 beats per minute, which is below a normal resting range. And then the Apple Watch stops. There's no more data. The phone kept going for another 15 minutes, but the watch did not. I will also argue 57 beats per minute for someone who, like Lindsay, is working out a lot. Is she an athlete. Could be an average for her. But I think they're also trying to say that like the crime couldn't have happened then because her heart rate was so low. Okay, yes.

Yeah. Between 533 p.m. and 538 p.m., the phone registers her climbing two flights of stairs. After 538, Reddington says that it's pretty much blackout. The watch itself, well, nobody found it that night. It turned up a few days later in a bedroom drawer. and that's when Reddington was in the house searching it with Patrick. Reddington found it in the bedside table while Patrick was in the room. And so that's why he says, like, I think the official report said, like, watch.

Like, adult was in the room when watch was found, talking about Patrick. Yeah. But people take that to say, like, Patrick had the watch and put it in there. I know. There's so many conspiracies, like, where they're like, Patrick took the watch with him to CVS. Yeah. Yeah. But if you look at just the logistics of how that would have worked.

worked. So some people do say that when Patrick is in the CVS, you can see him holding an Apple Watch and that, you know, it's Lindsay's Apple Watch. And Patrick would have used it to stage that 533 call. The two actually didn't talk together or talk to each other. Patrick called it on his cell phone. It didn't answer. And then he used the Apple Watch to call his phone back. And that's why it looked like Lindsay called. Which I don't know what type of Apple Watch she has because like you can have an Apple Watch that's set up to like call. But mine only works if my phone is near it. Like they have to be like on like the same. Yes. Like if I, yeah, like it wouldn't work otherwise. Regardless, if he had the Apple Watch in the CVS, you would know that. Yes. Like we would just, we would have that data that he brought it there and we just don't. Yeah.

So it's, that's the theory is that it's him in the CVS with the Apple Watch, but there's no data that supports that. Right. The state's digital forensics expert and Wiffens said that it was either taken off or it was out of battery before the children died, but he couldn't say which. And Reddington's point was more simple. Both devices went quiet before the murders. And the step data everyone's been citing came from both devices, not just the watch. Yeah, people got really hung up on these two pieces of evidence. Yeah. And it really could have just been she took them both off. She went upstairs, took one off, dropped it on the bed. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So again, all of this keeps circling that same question. How do you prove whether someone had a psychotic episode? There, are no medical tests for psychosis. Health authorities don't even agree on how long after birth, postpartum psychosis can occur. In this case, one of the central questions is whether that alleged episode was already over by the time Patrick got home. And this brings us to Patrick's 911 call. Again, like I said in the beginning, this is not made public. It was played in court,

but no one in the media was allowed to stream it. So as of this recording, it has a lot of this recording, only been heard by the people who were there in that courtroom and people who were on that call. A producer in the courtroom transcribed the call, and in her transcript, Patrick says, she's talking shortly after finding Lindsay Clancy outside. And a little later, the dispatcher asks whether Lindsay is responding normally, and Patrick says a little bit. What the transcript does not contain is a single word from Lindsay. So this has been another thing that's been debated in court and then also online is whether or not Lindsay can be heard and whether or not she was able to communicate. Right. So Patrick testified that she did speak to him during that call and he says when he asked her what happened, she said, quote, I tried to kill myself.

And when he asked her where the children were, she said, quote, in the basement. Now, Dr. Heilbrun from the prosecution testified that someone just emerging from a command hallucination would not be expected to say, I tried to kill. myself. He would expect something closer to, I did what the voice said, or I did what I had to do. And if she was speaking that clearly, the state points out, she could have told Patrick that the children needed help, but she didn't. Especially if she, as she claims, the voice stopped immediately after she did it. Yeah, if the psychosis broke immediately after committing the crime. Right. Lindsay's attorney, Kevin Reddington, says Patrick's memory has to be wrong because Lindsay was too badly hurt to speak at all. But there's also this other possibility that like she's in shock and maybe she was mumbling a couple of things then and then stopped talking afterwards because

the shock really like sunk in. Yeah, yeah. She's also the hypothermia and the blood loss and like the injuries are kind of starting to sudden. So that puts everything back on the 911 call and the tape that nobody outside the courtroom can hear. Veteran NBC journalist Sue O'Connell was there in the courtroom when the call was played, and she said Lindsay was mostly moaning in pain, but that she did make out one clear word that she perceived was in Lindsay's voice, saying basement. She did not hear, I tried to kill myself, or any other in intelligible speech. But she did hear Lindsay speak on the call, which I think is the important thing she's trying to say. So yes, that journalist did hear Lindsay say basement, but otherwise, there was no real word that Lindsay could be heard saying.

So if she wasn't lucid when Patrick found her, then her next real chance to communicate came after she was stabilized in the hospital. So we could go through Lindsay's behavior in those first hospital days and then try to decide whether she seemed rational, but the answer would be the same as it is for nearly everything else in this case, which is like it just depends how you look at it. And the jury had two things to decide, whether Lindsay understood that killing her children was wrong in the moment and whether she was capable of not doing it. Both of those may be impossible to determine just from the evidence that exists. The prosecution spent a lot of time establishing that she planned it and took rational, sequential steps, which indicated premeditation.

But according to a lot of experts, even if that is true, it still doesn't prove that she was well enough to be responsible because people, in psychosis can commit premeditated crimes. Well, I was going to say also it's hard for, because the jury has to without reasonable doubt. Yeah, right, right, 100%. Yeah. Which, like, burdens on the prosecution here. Yeah.

So a study of 47 homicides by men with schizophrenia found that 44 of them were motivated by psychosis and 20 of those were premeditated. The difference is that a person in psychosis has psychotic reasons for what they do. We talked about Andrea Yates already. she killed her children because she believed she was saving them from hell. And experts say that it doesn't really matter whether Lindsay seemed calm and rational before or after either because psychotic symptoms can come and go without warning. But I guess what they're arguing is like when Patrick talked to Lindsay and when Lindsay talked to like doctors, she wasn't saying like, I killed them.

I guess she was saying I killed them so that they would be safe. Yeah. But it's still, I think to them they were like, Andrea Gates was like in that religious cult and she was showing so many signs. of that beforehand and it really devolved. They are, to me, very different cases. Yes, of course. So people in psychosis can hide it for a long time, but there's an issue here. The defense case depends heavily on one diagnosis, and that is postpartum psychosis. And we've already talked about it not being in the DSM-5. Yeah. So the most generous study that we have on postpartum psychosis comes from a 2016 look at late onset cases. It pushes that.

window to 13 weeks instead of what we were talking about, which is like right after you give birth, like postpartum psychosis is only happening in the first four weeks. This is a study that pushes it to three months. Calan was almost eight months old the day that Lindsay said she heard the voice, more than double the outside edge of even that generous three months. Even so, Reddington argued that she didn't get enough help and instead was overmedicated. And I guess maybe the medication could have If it was bipolar and it's turned it into psychosis because of the medication. Or even just the mixing of so many different prescriptions and like changing them in such quick succession, could that have caused a psychosis? A lot of the case comes down to the burden of proof in a Massachusetts that burdens on the prosecution.

If they can't prove that she was criminally responsible beyond a reasonable doubt, the jury is supposed to find that she wasn't. And again, this is just the law. Yeah. You just, they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt that she was criminally responsible, was able to stop herself in that moment. And that's almost what happened. Yeah. After over five weeks of testimony on August 27, 2026, both sides gave closing arguments and the jury began to deliberate. Lindsay came to court every day waiting for a verdict.

She had to be transported from her psychiatric hospital in a specialized van, and she remained on 24-hour one-on-one. suicide watch. To this day, she's never alone. Wow. After 17 hours of deliberation across four days on September 1st, the jury told the judge that they just couldn't reach a verdict. And so the judge sent them back. But on September 2nd, they said it again. So he read to them what's called the dynamite charge. Basically, it's a standard instruction that judges can use on a stuck jury. The judge says, keep deliberating. If you're in the minority, seriously consider whether the other side might be right. And there's also, they'll say too, like, listen, you're 12 normal people. Like, if we have to do this trial again, it's going to be another 12 normal people. Like, you are as qualified as any group of 12 normal people. So, like, really consider that. Like, if you guys can't come to a conclusion, do you think that the next jury would? Like, yeah, don't just put this on another jury because it's also going to traumatize them as well. Like, it's a serious thing to do this dynamite charge. And after giving that explanation, he sends them back. The next day, a note from a. the foreperson revealed that the jury was split 11 to 1.

Still split, which makes me think that from the beginning when they told the judge they couldn't reach a decision, it was 11 to 1. Yeah. The jurors believed that the loan holdout was not following the judge's instructions on reasonable doubt. Redington asked the judge to remove that one juror for bias and see an alternate that they had, but the judge refused. Which I think they had six alternates, which is a lot higher than most normal cases.

Yeah. And the judge didn't want any of them to come in. And they had heard everything, too. Yeah. He wasn't willing to override what might be a sincerely held belief on the strength of the four person's read of it. You're not allowed to swap out jurors until you get the result that you want. So I understand why they did this. But he instructed them firmly on reasonable doubt and he sent them back one more time.

He actually met with each juror individually and made sure and got confirmation that they all understand. understood what reasonable doubt meant. Yes. And Reddington actually accused the judge of glossing over the seriousness of the holdout issue. Of course, it's Reddington's on the defense side. Like, he knows that the one holdout is voting guilty. And the judge shot back. The judge got sassy.

And he said, what do you want a brass band? Like, this was like a tense moment in the courtroom. After more than 36 hours spread across seven days, the jury still could not agree. And on September 4th, the judge declared a mistrial. Reddington tried to get the Massachusetts Supreme Court to stop it, a very rare move. They did decline, which leaves Lindsay Clancy exactly where she started in a psychiatric hospital on constant suicide watch, facing murder charges, and facing the prospect of doing this whole thing again. Reddington is trying everything he can to prevent that. He requested a presidential pardon, and I saw the other day Trump did say no to that.

on September 10th, he made one more attempt. He petitioned the judge for what's called a required finding of not guilty by lack of criminal responsibility. And that's when a judge decides a jury doesn't need to weigh in at all because the prosecution's case failed so completely that no reasonable jury could ever convict. As of this recording, the judge has still not ruled, though it would be unusual for a judge who wouldn't override one juror to override all 12. I think that hearing is set for a September 29th. Yeah, it's coming up. Yeah. Wow. It'll be, I mean, this will be released before that happens. But either way, this case is probably going to stay in the news for a while. And after the ruling, the state has to decide whether they want to have another trial, possibly the second trial is going to happen, though the district attorney hasn't said yet whether he intends to retry her. Which I imagine they will. I think so. It's such a big case that I feel like. Yeah.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And in all of it, three people are still not really getting the attention they deserve, like throughout whatever anyone thinks about this case, which I absolutely hate. If January 24th, 2023 had never happened, they would be eight, seven, and three years old right now. Coro would be starting the third grade. Dawson would be in first and Callen would be in preschool. But those three children will never grow up. And it seems like Lindsay is still focused on them, at least according to her attorney. Reddington says that even though she knows her children are dead, she talks about them constantly, as if she saw them just moments ago, and she keeps repeating the same four words, quote, I want my babies. To your point of bringing this back to the children and remembering that at the root of this, three children are dead, Patrick did have really beautiful and heartbreaking things to say about each of the children in his statement, so I wanted to read all of those. For a couple of them. For Cora, he said, she had an infectious laugh and was stunningly beautiful. About Dawson, he said, he had beautiful, bold, brown eyes that beamed with friendship. And his youngest, Callan, he said, he always knew how to heal me. Perhaps that's why he held on a little longer to spare me whatever pain he could. Now we like to end these episodes as a little bit of activism. And so I think it's important to bring up Lindsay, was never diagnosed with a postpartum mental illness, but her defense was built on that point.

We wanted to talk about the Maternal Mental Health Leadership Alliance. It's a nonprofit that pushes for better maternal mental health policy in the United States. In the wake of this trial, they're advocating for five changes. One, they want to integrate mental health care into obstetric care, so everyone is screened during and after pregnancy. Two, they want to train every health care provider in maternal mental health. Right now, it isn't required in a medical school, so providers have to seek it out themselves. Wow. Three, they want to give every postpartum parent a care coordinator to oversee their treatment and connect the providers to each other for one year after childbirth. And four, they want to fix the protocols around suicidal ideation

so that nobody is denied care for not having a plan, which, if you were listening earlier, that's the exact wall that Lindsay hit in December of 2022. And five, national paid family leave. Lindsay did get leave and she still didn't feel ready to go back to work and the pressure of making herself return may have bed this spiral and this is something that just like makes me so mad. Like I do, this is the thing that radicalized me the most is like even with maternal mental health care. It's like, well, how do we just get her in good enough shape that she can go back to work and just sit at a desk all day and be away from her kids? Like it's the focus on maternal mental health is like so rarely about the actual person at the center of it and just how do we just like throw people back into society so they can keep. Right. chugging away at their job. But like, I do hope all of these happen. Yeah. Because that would be like amazing reform. It's a start. We also need free child care. That's like we, we have to stop forcing people to worry so much about the financial burden of child care. It is outrageous. Yeah. What parents have to pay for. I get very mad about this. It's hard. It's just like, it's so hard. And like, I hope that at least some of these things get past.

because it's so important. Most Americans don't get anything when it comes to parental leave. Studies show that even two or three months of paid leave after birth has a significant positive effect on mental health. And that website that you can check out is mhmhla.org. And you can call 18333-TLC Mama. That's 1833-852-6262 for resources or intervention. I know for a fact. There's so much that we didn't cover and just couldn't cover in one episode. But, you Yeah, it's, you know, it's not over. We'll see what happens if the state decides to bring it to trial again. Yeah.

Yeah. We'll go through all this again. Yeah. And before we go today, we want to highlight the disappearance of Andrew Amato. The FBI's Boston Field Office and the Webster Police Department of Massachusetts are investigating the suspicious disappearance of Andrew Amato and are continuing to ask the public for its assistance in locating him or his remains. Andrew was reported missing on September 3rd. 30th, 1978. He was last seen around 11 a.m. by his sister and cousin playing in the woods

near his Richard Avenue home in Webster, Massachusetts. Andrew is known as Andy, was four years old at the time of his disappearance and was wearing a maroon-colored snorkel jacket, jeans, a white Mickey Mouse t-shirt, and brown shoes with a doggar stripe. If you have any information concerning this case, please contact the FBI's toll-free tip line at 1-800-call-FBI. That's 1-800-2-25-3-4 or the Webster Police Department at 508. 943-1-2-2-12-2, extension 1250. You may also contact your local FBI office, the nearest American Embassy or Consulate,

and you can submit a tip online at tips.fbi.gov. Even the smallest detail could help bring Andrew home. And that is all we have for you guys today. Thank you for, we really threw you straight into the, like, the fire on this one. Like your first episode here, I guess aside from the collab that we did for Crimes of Credit, but like, one to start on. Yeah. Sabrina's going to be here for the next couple weeks, which we're so excited about.

I'm excited to be here. A lot of crazy things that we're going to dive into. A lot of wild cases. A lot of them, like, suggestions coming from you guys. We're always listening to what the community has to say. And especially on this one, now I want to hear from you guys. Because everyone has an opinion. We talked about a lot.

You could throw it in the comments wherever you listen. We want to hear from you. We want to know thoughts, theories. The ways that these cases affect you and how. how you interact with them. At Crimehouse, we value your support. You can share your thoughts on social media and remember to rate, review,

and subscribe to Clues to help others discover the show. And don't forget for early ad-free access, subscribe to Crimehouse Plus at Crimehouseplus.com or if you listen on Apple Podcasts, top try free at the top of the clues page. We're going to be here next week again, and we'll see you there. Bye, guys.

The police closed my sister's case in 2019. Last month, her killer commented on my post. On Reddit, true crime doesn't come from journalists. It comes from the victims, the witnesses, and sometimes the suspects themselves. People post the things they never say out loud, anonymous, unfiltered, and completely real. And every Tuesday, on crimes of Reddit, we read them out loud. I'm Sabrina Deanna Roga from two girls, one ghost. And I'm Alexis Linkletter from the first degree. Each week, one of us brings the most unhinged true crime stories the internet has to offer. And the other goes in completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, reacting in real time, same as you. And then we

swap. And we pull every thread until the whole twisted picture comes into view. It's dark. It's messy. And the scariest part is that these are real stories, posted by real people. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to and follow Crimes of Reddit, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening to this episode from Crime House. If you're looking for another show to check out, listen to serial killers and murderous minds. Every Monday and Thursday, Dr. Tristan Engels and myself dig into the most chilling murders and uncover what drives them to kill. Follow serial killers and murderous minds, available wherever you listen to podcasts.