Clutterbug - Real-Life Hacks and Tips to Declutter, Organize and Clean your Home Fast - Decluttering Without the Mess with Dana K. White | Clutterbug Podcast # 264

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

Struggling to keep your home clean and clutter-free no matter what you do? You’re not alone! In this episode, Cas sits down with decluttering expert Dana K. White to uncover why traditional organizing advice doesn’t work for everyone—and what actually does. Dana shares her no-mess method, the secret to finally getting (and staying) organized, and how a few simple habits can save you hours of work. Plus, we dive into her newest book, Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House, and talk about the guilt and shame so many of us feel around clutter. If you’ve ever thought, “Why can’t I just get it together?”—this episode is for you! Don’t miss this one—press play now!   Learn more about Dana K. White: https://www.aslobcomesclean.com/ Buy Dana's new book Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House: https://www.aslobcomesclean.com/jesus/ Check out Dana's Socials: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/aslobcomesclean Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aslobcomesclean/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ASlobComesClean/     You can find more Clutterbug content here: Website: http://www.clutterbug.me YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@clutterbug TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clutterbug_me Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clutterbug_me/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Clutterbug.Me/   #clutterbug #podcast #mondaymotivation #DanakWhite #declutteringtips #clutterfreehome   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, Clutterbugs, you are in for a treat today because my very good friend is joining us, Dana K. White from A Slob Comes Clean. I'm such a huge fan of her, but she's also someone that I consider a very good friend. She is a YouTuber, a blogger, an author of multiple bestselling books, and just honestly the most relatable, kindest person you'll ever meet. So please welcome my friend, Dana. Welcome, Dana. I'm so excited to be here. I'm excited to have you. We were just talking before I hit record about the fact that I assumed we had done many podcasts in the past because we do this so often as part of Take Your House Back. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. How has this never happened before? Well, Dana, this is so, so, so exciting. I'm going to tell you, I followed you. I followed you.

without realizing who you were years and years ago when I was in my slob just the beginning of it, but you called yourself Noni. And now you're like this expert. You bought a new book coming out. You already a book that just released. You have like bestselling books on this. And back in the day, babe, you were struggling just like I was. Oh my goodness.

I had no intention of this being the thing I was going to teach. Like this was not. this was literally the thing that if you had told me this is what I would end up doing with my life, I would have laughed and cried because I would have been like, you're making fun of me right now. Like that's how I would have felt because this, but that's why I started writing and that's why I was named Noney, which is short for anonymous, you know, because this was my deep, dark secret and it was just my way to stay focused. I was like, I want to write. I'm going to learn about blogging and also get my house under control at the same time.

I thought it would take a couple of months, you know, and then everything would be perfect. And then I was going to, like, throw that away. No one was ever going to see it again. And then I was going to write about other stuff. So here we are. But it blew up because, I mean, I thought Noni was your name. Yeah. I just like, I was like, Noni, you know, Noni says.

And I was following you in the beginning, which is so crazy. that I kind of, you know, lost track of you and then came back. And then I'm like, wait, Dana and Noni is the same person? I know. You know, when I wrote my first ebook, like self-publish an e-book, it was about three years in maybe. And I had come to this point where I was like, okay, okay, I do have something to teach. Like I, for years, I was like, why would anyone listen to me? People would say, teach us what you're doing. And I was like, you're crazy. Why would you want to learn anything from me about this stuff? But then I realized, okay, the gap was, the first ebook was 28 days to hope for your home.

And it was like going from absolute overwhelm to, you know, okay, I think I can do this. And I wrote it and it was just a short little ebook, but I was like, I'm really proud of this thing. And I made this decision to put my real name on it because I was just like, I want to be a writer. I don't want to be a writer with a fake name and this thing is starting to turn into actual like what I had wanted all along. And so, but it was a big deal. People were like, what? But then there were other people like, oh, I knew that was your fake name.

You know, anyway. I, I mean, I work with you virtually doing Take Your House Back. So I see your genius in the way you teach through video. And I've seen that for a long time. I mean, and people. I mean, you're changing lives every day. You have an incredible podcast. You are such a good speaker, such a good teacher.

And then I read your book, How to Manage Your Home Without Losing Your Mind, actually just maybe a few years ago. And I was like, okay, wow, she's actually like an incredible writer. Like, you're awesome at all these things. All the things. No, I appreciate that because that's actually the thing I wanted to do, right? Like that's why I started blogging because I thought, I want to be a writer. I have no idea how to go about making that happen. And then blogs came onto the scene.

And I was like, well, surely that would at least possibly lead to writing. And I enjoy the other stuff. But no, my heart is in the writing for sure. I mean, I can tell because I read a lot of self-help books. And I read a lot of books on decluttering and organization because I'm always looking for something new and your books are different. Your books like feel like it just, it gets right through the fluff to the actual good stuff. And I feel like I'm just with a friend and I'm motivated, but I actually have the steps to make it happen. So I want to talk about your new book,

but I also want to talk about how to manage your home without losing your mind. And I think this core thing that you bring that is so life-changing is like the no mess method. And I know all of my listeners have probably know all about this, but if you could just break it down again, because we were both there in the drowning depth and you have a way of giving a path out like no one else. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's because in the beginning I wasn't teaching and I really was just figuring it out. And I think because of the unique thing and time that we were living in of blogging, where you were like writing something and getting immediate feedback, you know,

once people started reading it. Nobody I knew, because I didn't tell anybody I knew that I was doing this. But you get this feedback. And so I would write about what I was doing that if I had been doing that in my home, like secretly on my own, so many of the things that I figured out were really just like, oh my word, how did I not know this? It's so obvious once I figured it out. Right. Like it just feels so, I don't come up with new stuff. I just explain things in a way that makes sense to the person like me who did not understand how other people were keeping their houses under control, right?

And so because I was writing about my discoveries in real time anonymously, not thinking it was going to go anywhere. I was no plans with it. people were able to say, I didn't know that either. And so that's where I come in as like, I'm willing to say these things that the people who this stuff is natural to are like, seriously, who doesn't know that? I mean, like, and they will actually say that, you know, but I know I didn't know it. And I know that there are a lot of people who don't know these things. And so I'm like, I'm all say it. I'm just going to say it. So anyway, the no mess method is just, ultimately it's the method I figured out as I got rid of literal truckloads out of my home.

And so the reality is that I thought you had to pull everything out to declutter because that's what everybody said you had to do. And I would do that. I would pull everything out. I would look at the empty space and go, that looks amazing empty, right? And then I would turn around and all the stuff I had just pulled out was in piles and spread out all over the hallway. And I was like, whoa, and it would shut me down.

or life would happen and I would not realize I had stepped away. And then I regretted decluttering because I was like every time I try to declutter, I end up making a bigger mess. And it also made, and you and I, we hear this for people too, right? Like it made the people in my house nervous when mama decided to start decluttering because it was like, well, here we go into weeks, if not months of chaos of, you know, we were barely kind of making it before because things were shoved in places, but now they're spread out everywhere and we can't even survive here, you know.

So anyway, I just basically, it comes down to do the easy stuff first, which I have broken down into three steps, which is first start with the trash. And when I say trash, I mean actual trash. I don't have to decide that it's trash. It's just like literally looking for it. Even if there's no trash, there's always trash. But even if there's people, I got to say, people always say, I don't have any trash. Can we give examples of trash?

Yeah. I mean like, okay, so we're just going to give examples not say that they're delusional. But I mean, it's so normal to assume that you don't have any trash. And I'm like, that's why I always say, even if you don't have trash, look for trash. Because even if you don't have any, you always will. But even if you didn't, you would still have the value of looking for trash because you're getting started and you're starting to see what you're dealing with. It's no longer the unknown. But okay, so examples of trash would be empty Ziploc bag from the, you know, you packed up your

lotions to take on the airplane and then you unpacked those things and then, you know, you've put your things out and somehow the Ziplug bag is stuck in the drawer somewhere or packaging. Oh, my goodness, packaging, you know? Empty boxes. Yes, so many empty boxes. Honestly, a lot of times it's the broken stuff, right? where maybe in the moment when it broke, I had this idea that sometimes I'm offended that it broke and I don't want to face that reality.

You know, like I'm like, oh, my word. And so I just kind of ignore it. But when I go in looking for trash, I realize, oh, yeah, that's broken. Like it's just been invisible to me for the last six months a year, whatever. You know, like it's just been invisible. Now that I'm purposefully looking for trash, I see it. So the second step is just easy stuff. you know, trash is the easiest of the easy stuff.

Easy stuff is anything that I do already know what to do with it. Like I don't have to make a decision. I don't have to analyze anything. It's just literally, oh, and then what I'm doing is I am reducing the overall volume of mess. With everything that leaves, it's a little less overwhelming to me. And I'm making real progress. I'm also dealing with one item at a time. So when I get distracted, when life happens, and I stop,

it's okay because this space is better. I haven't made that bigger mess, right? So I take things to their already established homes, and then that's the easy stuff. And then third is obvious donations. I call it, duh, donations, but people like to think that that stands for something. And I'm like, no, I mean, it's literally what I say to myself,

like, duh, why in the, I'm from the 80s, right? Like, why is it that I even have this thing? Of course, I'm going to donate it. And I just do that as a step because I want to get as much out of this space immediately with no emotional energy used. And I, yes, I love that because I also feel like those three things are so easy. They're not emotional at all, but they get the ball rolling. And I always find trash every time I do this. And there's always things that have to go back into obvious homes.

But I also always find like, duh, clutter too. Like my kids, kids grow fast. You have a pair of shoes that your kids outgrew two summers ago. Duh. Why is that there? Right. But if I'm not being purposeful about looking for it, then it just kind of continues to live. And it feels like it's supposed to be there because I'm not consciously thinking of it.

Some people can just combine all this into one step. I needed that to be three separate steps because it keeps me on track. Like it gives me the thing to do because what I do, what happens to me is I look at a space and I go, and I just shut down. So having steps to always start with the trash, always look for easy stuff, always see if there's any obvious donations, that gives me the thing to do that keeps me from shutting down, right? So then I have my two decluttering questions, because I know there are lists of lots of decluttering questions, but I had so much stuff in my house that I had to boil it down. And I found that if I would ask myself, if I needed this item,

where would I look for it first? Okay. Now, to be clear, I don't know where this item goes, right? If I knew where it went, it left in step two, because that was the easy stuff that I already know what to do with it. So this is literally for those things, which, I mean, you hear this all the time. I know, because we hear it together all the time. I just don't know where to put things. I'm like, this is my way that I know where to put things. I identify the home according to where would I look for it first instead of what's the best place to put it or where would it be because that those allow my brain to spin out and they are analysis questions and I needed to make lots of progress quickly. So I just go with the instinct of like where is the actual place where I would look for it first.

It also helped me go ahead. No, which is not the pile, though. No, no, no, never, never, never. But the reality is that this helped me accept how we function in my house, right? Because before, when I was trying to think of the best place for something to go, I was not good at this stuff. So I had no confidence in establishing the very best place. And how many times did I try to do it? do that and then end up in that situation where people say, you know, I got organized and now I

can't find anything, which is the opposite of being organized, right? So this was the way for me to go ahead and say, you know what? If this is where we look for it, that's where it needs to go. Now, like you said, not in the pile because a lot of times people are like, well, I would look for my hammer on the coffee table and I don't want to look for it there. I'm like, yeah, yeah. Well, the goal is that the coffee table be clear, right? So if the coffee table was clear, where would I look for this item first and then I go with that. But yeah, and then if I can't answer that, I have to be honest with myself, ask my second question. If I needed this, would it occur to me that already had one? Because I didn't have a place where I would look for it. And that was hard because now I have it

in my hand and I know it's here. But the reality is that was the reason I was always in this endless clutter situation. Because I was always rebuying things because I had so much stuff that I had no awareness of what I had, had no clue where it was. If I did think maybe I had it, it was such an exhausting thought to even consider searching for it that I would buy more. And I was like, I've got to get stuff out. This is a way for me to be honest with myself and say, you know what? If I wouldn't go looking for it, I just need to get rid of it. Yeah. And then the last step is the container concept, which is, was transformational for me. It's the thing that Organized people are born knowing, and I had no idea.

And that is that space is finite. It doesn't just grow because, which is one of the reasons I love working with you, right? Like you are the queen of organization that actually works for people. And you are very clear that you have to have less stuff to be. or like there is no, there's no world in which the perfect organizing system is going to let me keep all my stuff. I did not understand that. I truly would look around my house and think I need to get organized. That was just the most logical thing in the world.

And so that meant creating some elaborate system. I would create an elaborate system. I would spend a lot of money on an elaborate system. And I could not maintain it. and and still didn't have enough room for all my stuff right so i thought well i need an even more elaborate system that is such a myth that's like the biggest myth that organizing will create more space yeah that is the biggest myth organizing does not create more space decluttering creates more space and oftentimes organizing takes up more space absolutely because you're giving things like homes that are

separate from other things. You can cram five pounds into a two pound bag if you're shoving, but if you're putting it neatly, you got two pounds. You can put two pounds worth of stuff in there. And so that's something that I think is a really big misconception that people think they can just go to the store and buy a bunch of bins and stack them and magically everything's going to fit. And that is never, ever the case. And then people have wasted money and time. Exactly. And that's what I did historically. That was the reason every time I tried to get my house under control, it never actually worked. It was because I wasn't focusing on decluttering. And the beauty was once I actually thought I was giving up by saying, okay, I don't even have it in me to get organized right now. I'm just going to declutter. That was my turning point right there was just the getting stuff out of my house. Because the minute I start. getting rid of things immediately my house started to be easier for me to handle right and i got to the point where i realized oh decluttering is actually the answer for me like i would because you're

already organized like you're already good at organizing you just didn't know it because you were buried under organizing isn't bins it organizing isn't bins that's i think what people don't realize and you already have systems in place that work. They were just buried under too much. I just had loads and loads of crap. I mean, like, Cass, I would. So a garage selling was my obsession when my kids were little, right? Like I loved.

I mean, we're talking get up. Actually, we're talking get the paper on Friday night. Make an actual map. This is in the olden days. No, I did this. I know. Yes, a map of where I was going to go, which ones I was going to hit first. And I loved the logistics of like, okay, this neighborhood has three.

And this one sounds like it's, so I'm going to hit this one. And then I'm going to go by that one really quickly. And then I'm going to, like, I loved that because I could literally every single week come home with a full minivan of junk. It's treasure. It was treasure at the time. But I also, I was an eBay seller. That was how I made our extra money when our kids were little. And it's tough because I know that, I know it's the desire.

I want to tell people don't be a reseller because I know the problems that I got into with it. But I also don't want to tell them that because I know that that was how we survived. I mean, like we moved. we had two house payments. You know, we were renting a house. We were still paying our house payment back here. And we had no extra money. I mean, like literally I would sell things on eBay that I bought at garage sales.

And I would make, I would be excited if I made 40 bucks a week. If I could make $40 a week, of course, this is also 20-something years ago, right? But $40 a week meant that since our kids were babies, they could eat off of our plate. And we could go to Chili's on Friday night. And we could pick up like something super basic with no drinks, fast food on Sunday. And like that was all we had. That was it. Like that was our only fund money that existed.

And so I get it. But I also. But I'm going to challenge and say how much were you spending at the garage sale on stuff that you didn't sell and were you actually making a profit in the end? Because I did the same thing. I think I was making up. I was paying attention to the money. but the real problem was my house.

Like it completely made my house almost unlivable. I mean, okay, so here's my story that honestly makes me hyperventilate. We moved. We were living in a rent house, which was plenty big, but at the time it felt so small, right? Now, knowing what I know about space and stuff and there being limits to space and all that, it would have been different. But I was pregnant when we moved in. I didn't know it. And my daughter was born while we lived in that rent house. And I was already resentful of the fact that we were still living there, you know, because our house had sold. And at the same time, our house sold every single house in the small town we'd moved to sold. And so we didn't have any place we could move into. So we had to keep living there. And I had an eBay room. So my two boys were sharing a room. And we brought my daughter home. And she stayed in my closet.

because there was a room packed full of eBay stuff. Like, yeah, that I would say there's a lot of things that I go, you know what, it is what it is, I've learned, whatever. That's the thing that kind of makes me like really frustrated with myself when I think about it. And obviously, she's fine. She's very, she was very resilient. She's a lovely woman because she's a woman now. but but I do I have a lot of regrets on that and I think was that worth it you know I mean I don't know

but also it was a lot of entertainment for me too to buy I mean let's just be honest I I oh I did listen the thrill of the hunt was real the drill of the hunt so I had this thing where I was chalk painting furniture so I would go to yard sales and I would go to thrift stores and I would buy furniture and then I would chalk paint it to sell it to resell. And at the time, like, that's when chalk painting was just like hitting off. But the truth was what I loved the most was the thrill of the hunt. And the thought of what it could be and how much money maybe I could get. I didn't actually love the chalk painting part.

So we have so much inventory that it filled my basement to the point that we couldn't like enjoy it as a family because it was filled with my business, which I was. just doing to justify the fact that I loved the, I was addicted to the thrill of the hunt, but I had to find a way to justify it. So I created a business in order to justify the fact that I love the thrill of the hunt. That was so hard to really admit and give up because I had built this dream in my head of having like a store where I sold chalk painted furniture. But the reality was that was never going to happen. Well, and it always made me feel like I needed a bigger house. Like that, that was part of it. I mean, I already had clutter issues anyway, right?

But then I had this idea. I remember I would see something huge. We're talking like a play scape or something. You know, like I would see that and I would think if I just had land, I could sell that kind of stuff. I mean, like, and then I could really turn it because they're selling it for $25, and I know I could get $400 or whatever. And I'm so thankful because we have land now. And I think I was not ready for that because I would have just filled that up too. And so anyway, I guess my point is that I understand where people are. And I understand, I do think it's a legitimate business, but there has to be boundaries around it, right? Like, people will ask me all the time, like, what do I do as a reseller?

And I'm like, well, it's the same thing as anything else, which is, where would you look first for your reselling things? And that space is the limit to how much you can have at a time. And it can't take up the space that you need to actually live your right now life. Like for me, it needed to have been a closet as opposed to an entire room that kept my daughter from having a room for the first, you know, four months of her life, which I know a lot of people have their kids in their room anyway, but I was always a see ya kind of a mama. I need my sleep.

Yeah, I like that. And I think what's really fascinating is the people who are. struggle with clutter are the dreamers like us the i can't wait to do and i'm still like i'm still like i'm like i need chickens and i want bees and i want and i'm always the potential and the amazing and and and it's a lot of the time i'm going to craft and i'm going to do stained glass a lot of the time that comes with stuff yeah and supplies and so i gather the stuff to be this do all these amazing cool things and then I'm like oh squirrel another amazing thing and it's a struggle and for me I would I enjoyed the gathering of the things but I gathered so many things that I was too overwhelmed

to actually do the thing right and then that produced a frustration in me that I couldn't really name exactly what it was but it was like and then it felt like okay maybe that's not the thing to do maybe it's something else I want to do. And then I would go and gather the things for that. And that was a really bad cycle for me. It is a bad cycle. And the breaking the cycle is the pain. For me, the pain of letting go. Yeah. Like I had to let go because we couldn't live. I had to let go because I was going to die if I had to spend one more minute looking for the shoes or the umbrella or my keys or my purse. The shame of someone just stopping by. I was going to die. I was going to all of these things. I couldn't live like that anymore. But letting go was so embarrassing and painful and

filled with shame in itself in the beginning that it was hard to. And I think that's something I've forgotten. Yeah. I forget how hard it is in the beginning to let go because now I'm like, I can let that go. It was tough at first. I think that's one of the reasons I keep, I stick with the basics. So I do feel like that was something I had that maybe I didn't have the other times that I wouldn't have in any other situation, but I was in this weird unique thing where I was doing all this publicly, right? Anonymously, not showing my face, not using my real name, all that kind of stuff. But I had a cheering squad, you know? And so I don't like cheerleading. like you can do it. I like cheerleading like wow, you did great, that kind of thing. Anyway,

but I, I feel like I, I want to be here for that person. You know what I mean? Like I, it was, it was transformational for me to realize I was not the only one who struggled this way. Because when I started, I honestly believed it was just me. I had no idea that. I had no idea that. anyone else in the world struggled the way that I did, right? Like, I mean, I had seen the show hoarders. I related to some things, but as far as, you know, like, people out there who, you know, the people at this same similar situation as me, and I always want to say that I always had a room that probably could have qualified for hoarders. I would usually have one room, and then I would clean that out, which meant I would just move everything to other rooms and then I would end up with a different

room that was stacked high, you know. But that's one of the reasons why I stick to the down and dirty is that I'm like, people need to know that they are not alone and that there's hope. So we're not like, yay, we're not alone. Let's wallow. No, it's like you're not alone. We absolutely get it. That's why I think working with you.

And with Don, there's so much power. in that because we all came from this position of being completely overwhelmed and just, you know, things being out of control that we can, you know, speak from that perspective. But I feel like I'm my, I'm the poster child for the person that this stuff is not natural for. And I'm okay with that because I needed that. Yeah. And it's, I think it's more prevalent than you think. And there's a lot of also like Heidi hoarders. That's what I was. So on the outside, if you'd come to my home, you're like, oh, this looks good. But I had the basement. And every single closet shoved and I would have to trash my house to find something. And so it would look like hoarders because and then I'd shove it over every bed under every everything, but then have to play that game again the next day when I needed something.

Which is so exhausting. So exhausting. And so exhausting. time consuming. And that's the, for me, was the biggest, like, the biggest life-changing moment was when I actually got, and it took a while to get enough stuff out to see that, wow, I have so much extra time. Like, for me, it was the time more than anything else. I had no idea how much time I spent managing my mess until my mess was gone. And I still have laundry and dishes and everybody has that. But like, I don't have the mess. And I know you know what I mean.

I do know what you mean. And I know you hear the same things from, you know, so many times. And I had the same questions. I was like, the issue must be that I'm not spending enough time on my house. Like, I looked around and I was like, I don't know what my problem is. But that has to be it. But then I would think, I'm already feeling like I'm constantly working. working on my house, how can I add more time to this? You know, I was like, how in the world can

I triple this amount of time? Because I would look at the mess and go, well, clearly, I at least need to triple it. And then I started teeny, tiny, teeny, tiny. Like, I was just like, I'm just going to do my dishes every day. I don't know. It didn't make sense to me. It makes more sense to me to wait a couple days until it's worth. Anyway, we all know that story, how it ends. But I didn't know how that ended until I figured it out. But like doing my dishes every day, doing these absolute basic small things that got smaller every day as I did them, it freed up so much time. And so it's so hard to have that conversation with somebody who can't see how that's possible, right? And that's what I do. Like I just keep on talking and keep on explaining and find a different way to explain it and all that.

But I always tell people like, you're never fully going to understand until you give it a try. Like, and I'm sure you hear from people all the time, but I get emails all the time from people who say, I cannot believe how much more time I have because I do the dishes every day. Yeah, I know. Because I, you know, have decluttered so much. And so when I go to find something, I actually find it. And it's not a three hour thing. And it's not normal. It's not my normal anymore to search and search and rip the house apart.

Right. And a daily tidy for me also changed because I don't know. Like, I'm not great at math and this math doesn't make sense. But if I do five minutes a day, then, but it, that somehow it's only five days in a week or whatever. But if I let it go, suddenly it's two hours. And I know that doesn't make sense because it should be just five plus five plus five. But that's not the way it works. Mess math is different. It's the same as dishes. It's 15 minutes to do your dishes after dinner. every day. But if you wait till the end of the week, for some reason, it's hours and hours and hours. Like it's, I don't know how this works, but this is how it works. Well, and that's, that's the problem. I mean, I'm just going to say this about those of us who struggle. I think we're actually, we tend to be very intelligent people. I mean, I'm saying that for real. What I have learned is that, and that was a big part of the identity struggle for me is because I was like, I am an intelligent person. My house makes me feel stupid. what is going on here.

Like I was trying to apply my things I was good at, big projects. I was trying to apply that to my house. And so that understanding, what was I talking about before I started saying that, see? See, mess math. But I think it's because like in theory, it should be easier to do all the cleaning on the weekend all at once. That feels like it should be more an efficient use of our time. time or to do all the dishes at once. Seems like it should be a more efficient use of our time.

But it, for some reason, it is not. Right. And I would look at it and go, when I do dishes on Saturday or whatever, once a week, it takes me five hours to clean my kitchen. Therefore, I never get to the rest of my house because I'm completely exhausted. But logically, I say, well, if it takes five hours after five days, hello, anyone can figure out. that means one day would take an hour. I don't want to spend an hour on my kitchen every day.

But also I was like, are these other people spending an hour on their kitchen every day? Like, how are they doing that? Right. But I didn't know that one day's worth is 15 minutes. Two days worth is an hour because it's not just doing the dishes. It's shifting and moving and resituating. And scrubbing and now things are harder to wash off because they've baked on. And it's so many things I didn't know either.

And clutter attracts clutter. And that's the other thing I didn't realize. as soon as if I don't tidy and they leave that pile, it's like a magnet for everything and things that we would naturally put away. Usually if that was clear, now we're not. So we're like multiplying the mess by not doing a little bit every day. And it doesn't really, I still don't know what makes sense. It's some kind of wizardry. But the truth is a little bit every day is the secret. It just magnifies our effort for some reason. Yeah, it does.

It's crazy. Okay, let's talk for one more thing before we jump into your new book. I really want to talk about layers of a clean house because I watched your video that you did, I think a year ago and my jaw, I had to pick up my jaw because, I mean, again, it's one of those things you know, but I didn't like hear it. I haven't heard it been said before. Is that what you say? And I was just like, wow, she's a genius.

Because you explained it in a way that I think we innately know. but when you hear it, you know. And you're like, that's a light bulb moment. Yeah. Yeah, I, it's the secret of why this seems to be easy for other people and hard for people like me. Right. You know, like, I don't know if you ever had conversations when you were overwhelmed in your home with a friend who said that they never cleaned and you looked around their house and you were like, what are you talking about? Like, this doesn't make any sense, right?

Yep. But guess what? Now I'm that person. I'm that annoying person. People come to my house and they're like, oh, your house is so clean. I'm like, actually, I never clean. And I see the dirty look and I know. I know because I used to give the dirty looks to my friends.

So the issue is, my parents had this lake house, right? And we, that was all. We couldn't afford to go anywhere. You know, our kids were little. And so we would go and we would spend a week there over spring break or whatever. Like that was our place where we went as a family. We loved it. Very simple little place.

But because it was not an Airbnb with a cleaner or whatever, it was something where we had to be the ones to get everything back to baseline right before we left. And so if we spent three or four days there and I didn't do the dishes and there's no dishwasher there, then the last day was this, oh my word, you know, we got to get all this time. There's a little kid. My kids were running around and all this. So I would really, really, really try hard to keep up with the dishes so that it wouldn't get out of control and take forever on that last day. But I realized one day as I was in this zone because I was writing about my house all the time and thinking about, you know, what is it that's the difference and all this? I realized, okay, so on this last day, I'm catching up on dishes. I've told my husband, can you get all of our stuff out of here?

so that when I'm done with the dishes, then I can wipe down the bathrooms and do the sweeping and the vacuuming, right, that we agreed to do to be able to use this place, right? So it hit me that what I was ultimately doing was the daily stuff, the dishes, okay? If I would keep up with the dishes, then on that last day, I got to completely skip the catching up in the kitchen, right? And once our stuff was out, then it was only the stuff that already lived there and that already had a home there, right? And I went, oh, that's like our stuff is the stuff with no place. That's the clutter.

And I realized, okay, when those things are out, there's no daily stuff to catch up on, there's no clutter. cleaning is not that hard. And it hit me that there are layers to a clean house and the first layer is the daily stuff. And if I don't do the daily things daily, then cleaning the house, the first step is to catch up on the daily stuff. And it's generally when I would think I needed to clean my house, all I did was catch up on stuff that should have been done daily. Right. And so I was picking up so many random things that were out of place. I was, you know, catching up on five hours worth of dishes, cleaning the whole entire kitchen. Picking up the dirty clothes off the floor. Right. All of those

things, it hit me that that was that first layer. And if I did those daily and I didn't have to do those, I could skip ahead. And then the second layer is the clutter. It's the stuff that has no place to go. So when I need to clean, I have to shift all these things around. I have to move things. I have to get things out of the way to actually be able to clean. And I realized, because I had been working on my house, because I had been working on daily stuff, because I had been working on clutter, that if I will keep up with daily things and if I will declutter to the point where everything in my home actually has a place to go, then when it's time to clean, all I have to do is clean. And that is the way that I can now volunteer to host at the very last minute. Where it used to you. It used to you. It used to

to take me two weeks to be ready to let people in my front door. Because the first week I spent decluttering, which was shoving everything in my bedroom where I could lock the door. And then my husband would always be like, why is our door locked? And I was like, oh, my word, you know this. This is our routine. There's a reason our door is locked and please don't announce it to everybody. It's hiding all our secrets. Yeah, we used to have our doorknob. Like, you had to actually it was messed up and you had to actually get out the screwdriver and take it off completely. And so I would tell him, I'm like, listen, I'm about to lock our door because nobody can stumble in there. I was like, I'm about to lock this door.

Without tools. I'm reminding you that there is no getting into this room. Because if there's anything you needed, it is too late. Right. But if I, if I have my decluttering done, then and my daily stuff, it's all so much easier. right because i used to spend that first week moving stuff into the master bedroom and then the second week cleaning because i couldn't actually clean with clutter everywhere so that's the secret that's not a secret but you know what i mean that's the secret that people who don't struggle with

this know even though they don't know that they know usually yeah it's true and like now that my surfaces are pretty clear because everything has a home and i'm doing walking around doing the tidy to put it back I'll just catch myself sometimes like I'll notice a spill and I'll be like oh and I just wipe it and it's one second. Boop. Yes. You know, or I'll be like in the bathroom. Like, oh, those toothpaste splattered. But I didn't notice that stuff because there was clutter everywhere.

So then things would get really grimy and dirty and then I'd have to scrub my house. So when I say I never clean like I don't even know the last time I've scrubbed anything. Like I feel like I don't. But I think what I'm just doing these little. boop-a-ooshity-wosh-de-wush-oosh-de-wushes because it's easy to see because now the clutter's gone. Yeah. So it's almost like that's become a bit of a daily. The little wipes have become a daily.

So now the cleaning is like vacuuming and mopping sometimes. Because when it was a spill and there were 14 other splatters or spills that had happened too, it's like, oh, just one more thing. You know, like, oh, my goodness, that's going to take, it's going to make. it take even longer now. But you're right. I talk about, you know, you can wipe it now or I can scrub it later. But I couldn't see that when the surfaces were covered in stuff. Yeah. And I think it's to the point now when I go into someone's home and I help them declutter, we'll declutter the kitchen and we'll organize everything. And then they're like, I didn't realize the counters were so grimy. I didn't realize the front of the cabinets were all splattered with food.

You don't see that when all you see is the piles. You're just like so it's almost like your brain is so overstimulated with everything that it's like filtering out things just for your own survival. And so yeah, you're not doing, you're just, you're just seeing the big stuff. And you're like not noticing all the little things. And when that's all gone, you're like, oh, and you wipe and you wipe. You're like, why is my house feel so clean? It's crazy. It's crazy. It's because the clutter's gone. Okay. Thank you. This is amazing. Tell me about your nude book. Jesus doesn't care about your messy house. I said my nude book. I said you're new. Is it nude? Is it new and nude? Leave it to Cass. No. Yeah. So it's called Jesus doesn't care about your messy house. It's my first Christian book. I, by other three books, do not have any Christian content. And then this book kind of explains why. But yeah,

this book is really a lot about the identity piece of things. The reality that I thought this was a spiritual failing that I struggled in this way. Is that because the godliness is cleanliness? I think I'm butchering that, but I've heard this. Yes. So there's this saying, cleanliness is next to godliness, which I knew was not in the Bible. Right. Like I knew that most people are, you know, it's one of those things they like.

like to spout off like, oh, this sounds like it's in the Bible, but it's not. But it felt like it was a spiritual principle, right? And if you Google, is cleanliness next to godliness and the Bible, the answers are all like, no, but. And then they would give this like idea. Well, most of them would mention, no, it's not technically in the Bible, but the idea is there. And then they would talk about the Proverbs 31 women, which you may have no idea what that is. But it's basically... No, but I'm so interested. It's this thing that a lot of people, especially like me, a lot of women, but especially women like me, it's like the chapter of the Bible that people are scared to read because it supposedly describes the perfect woman, right?

Give it to me. I'm so curious, like, because Joe's mom is really religious and she put so much pressure on herself to cook and clean and... serve her family and I'm not a religious person. So I'm always like, is this in the bite? Where is this coming from this pressure? That's exactly what this book is, right? Like I take all these things that give us this idea that, oh my goodness, it's a spiritual failing if this stuff is hard for me. And I'm, we just look at it realistically and we're like, how does Jesus really feel about your messy house? But so in Proverbs 31, which is in the Old Testament, it describes this woman, right? She gets up early in the morning, she, you know, takes care of her children. She has a business.

She's like a really smart woman, all these different things. Well, the assumption is, and I assumed it, too, that it says something about her house being clean and organized and perfect, right? Like, that that is included in there. And so I went through this chapter. It does not even mention it in any other vague terms. Like we all know the vague terms, right? Like, um, her children always know where their socks are or, you know, whatever. I mean, like, anything of, there's nothing in there about her house and the state of her home. And the reality is that this woman that it describes, who is a hard worker and who's very driven and who people depend upon and call on for all sorts of things, she reminds me very much of the women I know who struggle with their homes.

Like, I'm not sure your experience, but I know for me, it is highly intelligent, very creative, very driven women. The women who struggle with clutter that I know are the ones who, their church, when they need to run a big program or whatever, that's who they're going to call. Like, you know, I was a theater arts teacher. I can organize a play with 350 people in the cast and everything is going to run incredibly smoothly. It's all going to be planned out ahead of time. It's going to be executed. It's going to turn out amazing. Like,

I am extremely confident in that and I could not keep my physical stuff in order, right? And so this idea that if I'm a Christian woman, it's supposed to, to be easy for me is just flat out not in there, right? And not in the Bible. That's so fascinating. It feels like it is. Even as a non-religious person, I feel like you're like serving your family and your home and your cooking and you're great at cooking and you're great at cleaning and you're great at. That's like what I assume for some reason. where is this coming from? I don't know if we want to get into all that.

Oh, sorry. Okay. Yeah. No, I mean, it is fascinating. I feel like that would be a lot of pressure. It's a ton of pressure. I do think that, okay, so the reality is that the reality of, you know, having a relationship with Jesus is all grace.

Like, it's all supposed to be about the fact that I can't do anything, right? Like, there is literally nothing I can do. to make God love me. It's only what he's already done for me. So it's not an achievement thing in any way. So therefore, if I get caught up in this idea that it's an achievement thing, then I'm actually missing the real point of what it is to have a relationship with God. Right?

And it's like, so it's a thing. But the reality is that sometimes people don't like to talk about grace because what if, what if we talk about grace and people stop cleaning so that's a deep conversation to have and a lot of people don't want to have a deep conversation they want to be able to say cleanliness is next to godliness because if that'll make you clean then i'm good with that right oh yeah it's like keeping women in this role ooh are we going there i don't know i don't know if we want to go there or not Okay, I see what you're saying. And I'm thinking about like, I follow some Christian influencers and they're like getting

up in the morning and they got a baby strap to them and they're milking their cows and they're polished perfect homes and they've got beautiful curls in their hair and they whole make their dresses and everybody looks perfect and everything's perfect. Plus I know they're running this business because an influencer's a lot of work and they're doing all this thing. And no, they're not sleeping. And I'm just like, oh. And then so I think you have this now this added not only,

maybe you feel it in your religion or your church or your community, but now you have the social media aspect that is showing like these great Christian women who are also like amazing at all the home stuff. Yeah, it's a, that's the point. This is a deep conversation. So in the Christian world, we call it discipleship, right? Like it's supposed to be a relationship where we walk alongside one another through life, dealing with the actual things that life throws us and bringing our faith into that, right?

Like whatever, whatever everybody has a struggle. Everybody has a weakness. There is an idea that as Christians, we're supposed to present a perfect picture of what it means to be a Christian. And actually, in reality, that's the opposite of what we need to do. Because, again, there's nothing I can do to please God. It is only what he's already done, right? And then that changes everything for me because that removes all of that pressure. And when I understand that, I get to rest in the grace. Now, I feel like I am in a unique position to specifically tackle this topic. I mean, really, it's a book about grace using this topic as my example of how we explore that grace, right? But I'm in a unique position because you can't accuse me of saying that it doesn't matter what your house

looks like, right? Because I've written three books about how to get your house under control. And so if I had started out and this was my first book, there could be a lot of misconception that she's saying live in filth. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that the way people try to be helpful by spouting off quick phrases like cleanliness is next to godliness, which is actually untrue and pretty dangerous spiritually, is not helpful. No. Shame isn't motivating. Shame isn't never motivating.

And shame is never inspiring. And shame never gets any real change. And the way as a Christian, my shame is removed because of my relationship with God, right? And the lack of shame gives me the freedom to actually make progress. You know, understanding I was not alone, understanding there were other people whose brains worked the way that mine did helped me realize, oh, my brain is not a mistake. I just have to figure out what does work for me, right? And so that freedom to go, okay, I don't have to feel like a failure because what other people say is the only way to do this, never worked for me. now I'm free.

Now I'm free to actually move forward. And it's also that reality of, you know, a lot of people look at people who struggle in their homes. And the assumption is they must not care. And that is incredibly hurtful to the person who's struggling. I cared so much that I cried literal tears on a regular basis over my home and the things that it was keeping me from being able to do. And so the hope for this book is that people will be seen and that I'll address this subject so that that shame is gone. That's that's the goal. I love that.

Okay. Let my listeners know where they can get your book. Yeah. All of my books are wherever books are sold. Just always put the K in my name. That's all. Yeah. If you put the K in there, you'll find me.

Dana K White. Dana K. Just put in Dana White. There's this bald guy who runs the UFC, and that's not me. But yeah, if you just Google Dana K White Books, you'll find it wherever. Awesome. And go to a slub comes clean. And I mean, just watch Dana everywhere. I follow you on all the places where you are. And you just continue to inspire me every day. And I'm so glad that I met you and that we worked together because I was really hard. I'm still a little harsh, a little harsh, like, what do you do and just put it in a bag? And you really showed like, oh, I almost like I forgot to be gentle because it's so long ago. I forgot how hard it actually was in the beginning to put even trash in a trash sometimes. But the world needs both of us and on. Right.

I mean, like seriously. Like I think that's what's, I'm so thankful for you because you are genius. I mean, things that you say, I'm like, what? Like, how does you just come up with amazing, practical, realistic ways to organize for people that acknowledges who they are? Like, that's all I wanted, right? I just wanted somebody to say, yeah, you are a little different than that. And that's fine. And let's embrace that.

So, no, I think that's why we make a great team is just coming at it because, different people need different things and that's actually kind of the point right i love it yes okay listeners go order dana's books all of them just get all of them they're all awesome i'm going to put links in the show notes down below and i think you should follow her on all the platforms youtube facebook just everything and thank you so much dana for being here i love it and thank you to everyone at home and we'll see you guys next time