Clutterbug - Real-Life Hacks and Tips to Declutter, Organize and Clean your Home Fast - Emotional Labor: Debunking the Myth of "Women's Work with Dr. Regina Lark | Clutterbug Podcast # 235

Episode Date: August 5, 2024

In this insightful podcast, we welcome the incredible Dr. Regina Lark to discuss her expertise in helping individuals with mental health disorders, including ADHD. Dr. Lark shares strategies for managing and keeping an organized home for those living with these conditions . We delve into the pressures of being a woman, mother, and wife, exploring how these roles impact the home environment. We discuss practical tips for creating a more organized and supportive living space while balancing the demands of daily life. Don't miss this empowering conversation!   Learn more about Dr. Regina Lark here: https://reginalark.com/ Learn more about A Clear Path: Professional Organizing and Productivity here: https://aclearpath.net/regina-f-lark-ph-d/   You can find more Clutterbug content here: Website: http://www.clutterbug.me YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@clutterbug TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clutterbug_me Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clutterbug_me/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Clutterbug.Me/   #clutterbug #podcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today we're going to get a little intense. We are talking not only about chronic disorganization, but also the pressure both internal and external that women face today to be it all and to do it all, to manage our house, and to raise kids and to be a wife and to work and earn money. And there's so much it can feel suffocating. And if you're already struggling with organization and clutter, this is magnified. So you are in for a treat because today I am talking with Dr. Regina Lark. She is not only a professional organizer and a keynote speaker. She owns a business called A Clear Path, helping thousands of women overcome chronic disorganization, but she's also a doctor of women's history. So she's coming from a place of really understanding the pressure and the

stress that women face and I am so ecstatic to talk with her right now. So welcome, Regina. Welcome to the Clutterbug Podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for inviting me. This is so exciting. I'm actually really thrilled to talk to you because not only are you a professional organizer with so much experience and knowledge and you really specialize in like ADHD ADHD strategies, which I love, but I'm most. mostly excited that you have your PhD in women history because this is something I don't get to talk about with a lot of guests that I would love to talk about with you, which is this pressure that's being put on women, I think it's even magnified today because of social media to do it all

and be it all. And so not only do we have the physical tasks that we have to tackle, but we have the mental load that we carry and all the invisible tasks. And now we have the pressure to be amazing because we see all these other women in their perfect houses, in their perfect bodies, with their perfect children and their perfect careers. And it's like, why can't I manage to get the dishes done? Well, I'm going to encourage your listeners to really. disrupt the narrative on the word perfect. Because actually that's a perception.

It's the perception on the person who presents themselves. This is my idea of perfect. And it's your desire to accept that as perfect. So unpack that narrative. Where do you want me to start? I love this topic. Yeah, we're going to delve into this more. We're going to talk about this new trend that's going, like the tradwife trend in a second. But first, I'm actually quite curious how you went from, you know, you're a doctor. You have your PhD in women's history to

becoming a professional organizer. That's like a, that's a journey that I'm sure like seems a little bit off the trail. How did this come about? So we have to be a, that's a journey. So we have to redefine what off the trail means. No, I'm kidding. I was in many respects an accidental PhD. I spent so many years in college. And one day I came home and I told my partner at the time, I said, okay, so they've got these degrees. And I was working on my undergraduate degree. and I said they have masters and they have PhDs. And my partner said, what's the best one? I said, I think it's the PhD.

So he goes, let's just do that. So I just went on that journey. And I loved higher ed and I loved academic life. And my last job, which will always be my last job, I was a director of programs at UCLA Extension. And it was a tough place for me, professionally and personally. could have been a really creative, but the leadership was very hard for me. And in the summer, so in the summer of 08, so like this month, July of 08, I went to Jerusalem to visit a good friend of mine.

And while I was there, I said, Nathra, I don't want to be a tourist today. How about if I do your kitchen? And she says, Habipi, what does that mean? And I said, Nader, your girls are in their 30s. You got sippy cups in the cover. just let me do what I do. So she let me do what we do. And it was a good result.

I get back to my desk at UCLA. And one week later, I learned that my unit was being dismantled and my position eliminated. And I was out of work in about 10 days. I was about to turn 50. And I told my roommate, and then two months on the job market, I'm looking, the recession had started. And so two months into the job market, I told Ronnie my roommate, I'm going to organize until something better comes along and nothing has. And so I started this journey of being an organizer.

And in that first year, I was very cognizant of who's calling me for work. And it was professional women. And one day, I sat on the floor with one of my clients and were going through her greeting card clutter. And she started telling. me this story about her sense, her lack of self-worth, her sense of despair, her feelings of shame, and there was just so much riding on her desire to get organized that had kind of nothing to do with the clutter. And in that first year as an organizer, I was taking a lot of classes with the Institute for Challenging Disorganization. So I've become a subject matter expert on working with people

with brain-based conditions like ADHD. And what do I know about ADHD? ADHD is an executive function challenge. What do we know about executive functions? Planning, processing, time management, emotional management, linear, productivity, producing. Now we have this understanding of executive function challenges. We have this historical role that has been heaped upon women of being the primary caregiver. And if she's got executive function challenges, her house is a giant mess. And she feels shame and despair and self-loathing because she can't keep up with this seemingly easy task of household management because after all, it's not paid, right? After all, there's not really any job description. After all, nobody really asked her, are you good at this? No, she just went right

into it. So here I am sitting on the floor with this client and really thinking about what she's telling me. And then I gave her Women's History 101 right there. And I started piecing together for myself and for my client what was really going on here in this role of women's work. If you said men's work, you come up with all kinds of responses, astronaut, judge, garbage collector. You don't come up with men's work as vacuuming. When you say women's work, instant global understanding. That was just like too much. How could that be that you say women's work.

and everybody on the planet will know what that means. Say men's work, a variety of tasks. Say women's work, do we think Supreme Court justice? No. So I really began listening and thinking a lot about what I was observing. And again, the PhD now stands for Piled Higher and Deeper because that's what it stood for in grad school. and I just became very curious about this whole concept of household management as women's work.

I was thinking about how household management plays out in the paid workplace. We've heard the term office wife. We've not heard the term office husband. The term for office husband is boss. We hear boss lady. Now, I have a problem with the word lady or ladies because there are so many rules to being a lady. Speaking softly, crossing your legs. Don't take up too much space.

Keep yourself contained. So we have these rules for being a lady. And then I've noticed that a lot of women apologize for existing. you bump into them they say I'm sorry they're just standing there yeah we have yeah we have rules too for being a wife we have rules for being a mother we have rules for being a homemaker and then we all of these added yeah expectations too of to do to do it well to do it awesome yeah because it's unwaged therefore it must be easy Therefore, we have to really think about, well, do we value it?

How do we value things that we don't pay for? So when I think about these rules for wife and mother and what it means to be female is really what we're talking about. What does it mean to be female when you've got these rules? And I, oh, my gosh, I'm such a word junkie. I will never walk into a room full of women and say, hey, you guys, because it's not who I see, right? It's not women's work.

What I see is work that needs to be done and a lot of work that needs to be done, but you don't need to have a particular body part to get it done. You actually have to have cognitive, really strong cognitive skills and not, you know, down there. I totally, I totally understand. So I went from, I had a journey in my life, but I was running a charity. I was running the Lung association and I was doing like really well and I had a bunch of balls. I was juggling and seemingly I was like, I got this. And then I became a mom. And then when my second daughter was born, I decided to be a stay at home mom. And suddenly all of my biggest issues were magnified because I'm not great with time management. I'm not great with like prioritizing tasks.

I really suck at self motivation. So I didn't have a boss. I didn't have like, you know, deadlines I had to hit. Now I got to make my own deadlines. And I got, I was so distracted. I was also putting so much pressure on myself. I wanted to, I was like trying to sew them dresses and make them hair bows and things and like make them little matching tutus. And also I wanted to make things from scratch.

and I wanted to cook and I wanted to clean and I wanted to. And then I just look around and my house is trashed. I haven't showered in two days. I have no idea where my car keys are. And I'm just like, I'm a failure. I kid you not. I hated myself. I hated myself because I couldn't manage my home. And it was a disaster and it was embarrassing. And I woke up. every day to piles of laundry and dirt and toys and just was like, this isn't even hard. I know very stupid people who are like killing this game and can do this. What's wrong with me?

And, you know, the magical thing, and I've talked about this a lot, when I discovered a less, like an organizing style that worked for me and I got a handle on my home, yes, it's great. And I saved time and I, life was easier and I started saving money. But the biggest impact was I started loving myself. Because when my home was under control, I felt in control of my life, which is why I'm super passionate and like shouting it from the windows. But let's talk about the women pressure.

The goalpost kept moving. So at first it was like, I can't wait to get my house. house under control. And then it was like, but now I got to cook from scratch and I got to be this awesome mother and I want to be this wonderful wife. And I, and now with social media, it's like, am I supposed to be milking a cow and making my own cheese? Yes and yes. Well, also working full time. Wait. That's also being a stay-at-home mom. It's your second full-time job. And like the pressure is insane. And I feel really bad. for especially younger women. So I have a 17-year-old daughter. She's turning 18 and she says her dream,

she wants to be a trad wife. So I don't know if you've heard of this new trend. Have you heard of the Tradwife trend? Yeah. Yeah. So Tradwife stands for traditional life, which I think is beautiful and wonderful and I want this for her. But the way it's really portrayed on social media is this very like relaxed, you wake up in the morning, you milk your cow, you get your eggs, you've got your six babies, you make them cereal from scratch, which would take like two hours, then you lovingly make them homemade Oreos, and your house is spotless and you're wearing a dress. And my daughter sees this and is like, and I'm thinking, bro, you're going to be covered in baby vomit and not have time to even go to the grocery store to buy cereal, let alone make it from scratch.

And it isn't that kind of pressure and fake make-believe puts even more pressure on us as women because that is not real life. Do you know what I'm saying? Well, Cass, let me, I'm going to push back a little and say, yes, I absolutely know what you're saying. But before you commented on, you're going to be covered with baby vomit, you said, when your daughter expressed that she wants to be a traditional wife, you said, how lovely and wonderful is that? But you don't mean it because it's not lovely and wonderful.

And what it reminds me of every single organizing book. It reminds me of every single, let me say traditional organizing book. nobody addresses the significance of the executive functions. So it's nobody talks about that and what it takes, what the mechanics are to have a well-ordered home. So when I hear how lovely that must be, it's like, well, no, because if you don't have access to your executive functions, fully formed and functioning, and you're going to have a shit show at home.

And again, how do we let the family, you know, so do we let the whole family off the hook to not participate in household management? How do we train them to be household managers of their place? You know, so it just doesn't, it just doesn't layer in right for me. I mean, I think it's nice that people want to do lovely things for their family. But a traditional wife has always been overwhelmed, overburdened, not earning their own wages. I mean, I don't know. And that's the other thing.

Like, we live in such an expensive era. To be a stay-at-home mom who doesn't have to go to work really does come from a place of privilege. because for myself, I stayed home with my children, but I also had to run a daycare out of my home to be able to still provide income, right? So I always had to work full time and also take on all the roles of child rearing and all the roles of managing the house. And even if you're staying at home and you're not working outside the house, it's still like a magnitude of stuff to do in a day. It's suffocating. It's an impossible to do it all in a day.

And I want to disrupt the narrative on this. You know, I work with a lot of women. They leave their corporate life. They start their family. And then they tell me they go back to work. And I'm like, well, what the hell have you been doing these last four years, except working around the clock? And so, again, it's up to us.

to switch the narrative on the language. We're not going back to work. We're not not working. We are working so much more than we ever have in our entire lives by being a full-time homemaker because it's just an, it's an endless job description because it includes the mental load of emotional labor and the physical construction of household management. I'll give you an example. I'd love to share my morning. I was thinking of you this morning. I was thinking of this podcast. So I got up and I had another interview before this one. But I was thinking about you because I was like, oh my gosh, I've got to let the dog out. I've got to make sure I feed the cat. I've got to take the dog for a quick walk because I'm going to be busy and I don't want her barking. And my son is going for a sleepover this weekend at his grandmas. I was like, I got to make sure his bag is packed. Does he have clean underwear? And I'm thinking about this.

while I'm making breakfast in the kitchen thinking, oh, I should really have made my kids homemade cinnamon buns. I'm such a crappy mother. I don't even have time to make them breakfast this morning. Oh, crap. I put my toast in. I forgot I got to water the flowers. So I run outside and I'm watering the flowers while my toast is down while thinking my mom's

coming to pick up my son. I should really vacuum really quick and I've got two loads of laundry to put away. And what am I going to think about with that podcast? Oh my gosh. Does he have a clean bathing suit? And I've got to get out the life jacket for him. And then I come back in. My toast is burnt, you know,

and cold and I'm running around and I'm like oh I got a vacuum the stairs because my mother might see and you know as a woman I feel responsibility for the home and if a guest coming in I should have it clean and oh my gosh I only have 15 minutes to get ready before my podcast and I didn't even do my makeup but I got to look nice because you know I got to put on makeup and blah blah blah and I go back upstairs and my husband's just drinking his coffee and reading the news not a thought in his brain not a worry and I'm not saying this on a slight my husband because when you really step back oh also we're going to the drive in movies tonight so i'm thinking i need to go pick up candy i don't inflate that air mattresses and i got to set up the beds in the back of the vehicles and all of these thoughts are going on at the exact same time in like a five minute time and a lot of this is self-imposed expectations i put on myself too well culturally i don't have to clean before yes it's social pressures I don't have to clean before my mother comes. My son is more than capable of packing his own bag. And guess what if he forgets his underwear, he's got a not wear underwear.

Like I take on so much of the role of managing everyone that I'm exhausted and it's 7.30 in the morning. Right. Stop it. You ever see the Bob Newhart? Bob Newhart got us rest his soul. he had a really, really good skit, and it was called Stop It. And he is a psychiatrist. And the premise is $5.5 minutes. So the woman sits before him and she talks about an eating disorder. And he goes, well, just stop doing that behavior. And she said, what?

And he goes, well, if it's making you uncomfortable, just stop. it. I mean, again, it's... I would love to stop. I would love to stop it. So how do you enjoy the family to be partnering with you on household management? And even the women that I've met that are the most organized and really are at the top of their game in managing the household, managing their professional lives, they're also exhausted because now everybody looks to them. Well, you know how to do it better. Clearly, she does know how to do it better, but that's not equity. That's not equality. So, oh, because she's good at doing all of it, she should do all of it. I mean, I don't know. We got to we got to think about

having very, very different conversations with the other adult in the household to start with. Yeah, I think it's twofold. One is like I need, it's the same, it's the same thing, actually. Not only do I need to let go by delegating, but I need to let go by also being okay with not juggling all the balls. It's okay if my house doesn't look perfect before a guest comes over. it's okay if I don't make cinnamon rolls for my kids. They're more than capable of pouring themselves a bowl of cereal. It's okay if I don't play with the dog. You know, if she barks a little bit, whatever. It's okay if he doesn't have a bathing suit. He can swim in his shorts. Like I put my son, my son when he's, my son's going away for the weekend. And I was so stressed that he didn't pack a bathing suit. And I'm running around like an idiot. But a lot of this is self-imposed. pressure I put on myself and societal pressure to do all of these things well. Take it less off yourself. It's not you. You were raised to notice. You were raised to do the work.

It's, it's, it's, I want women to quit blaming themselves for taking, because then that's another thing you're taking on, the blame of doing it all. So again, I don't blame women for anything. I do, I never will. Because we are raised in a culture as our sisters before us and as their sisters before them and their mothers before them. It's almost part of the DNA of the body, but it's certainly part of the cultural DNA. And that's a big thing to have to fight. So. Yeah. And I think you're right. it's both cultural and it's something in my DNA. I mean, when I was pregnant, all I wanted to do is nest. I care more about the state of my home than my husband. I do. I want it to be pretty and cozy and I like throw pillows. He couldn't give a rat's patootie about stuff like that. That's built in me to

want to feather my nest. I want to, you know, nourish my children with healthy foods and I enjoy cooking and baking. This is like ingrained in me and also all the cultural pressure put on it. But also I got to work full time and run a business and I got to be a woman and a man. No, you just have to be in the traditional senses. I'm not saying it like, but you know what I mean? Again, I want us to use different language. We're not being a woman and a man. We're not being the we're being our whole amazing selves because men aren't doing the kinds of work that we do. I, I, I, I, I, and I don't. I know, some men are.

We're not going to get mash, let's not get man, dashy. I know, I just don't understand why, why, if it's important to you to have a well-ordered home, I'm not quite rhetorical you. I'm not here why the other adult in the household, doesn't honor that it's important to you, so let's make it important to us. I don't get that part. I worked with, I was brought in to help organize a home, and the wife called me in. And I'm sitting on the couch with her and her husband.

And the island in the kitchen was just a cluster. It just had everything on it. bananas, electronics, everything. Baggies, a diaper. And I said to her, how do you feel when you look at that? And she was just, I hate it. I'm embarrassed, shameful, blah, blah. I looked at him. I said, how do you feel when you look at that? He goes, that doesn't bother me. And I said, how come her pain isn't your pain and you're not sitting here saying Regina what will it take to make this right where's your go-to support person here okay but listen I'm also go-go-so go ahead sorry I feel like I need to challenge you a little bit here because my husband like

cares about the grass and the lawn and the weeds in the garden like he gets really stressed out if it doesn't look really good or if it like if the mailbox paints chipping off and stuff, I don't care about that stuff. But I could be out there helping him garden and helping him. But like I'm not, listen, I'm all for men and women need to be equal roles. But sometimes I do think as women, we put more pressure than necessary on ourselves to have everything perfect all the time. You know what I'm saying? Again, I don't blame women for that at all.

I really don't. I, you know, the tasks that your husband does are not 24-7 like the tasks that you perform. So again, I, and again, that stuff he loves to do. You don't have that privilege of doing only the things you love to do. So I, I. I'll push right back. How cool it is that he gets to do everything he loves to do. I'm so happy for him.

What if you only baked? Wouldn't that be amazing? Wouldn't you love that? And then maybe he can help you bake. Oh, man, I love it. We're tiptoeing on man bashing right here because there are a lot of... We're tiptoeing on women's lives and women's realities. We're not mail-bashing.

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Let's move on to chronic disorganization, which is something that, I mean, I want you to define it, but I know this is something I struggled with for the first 30 years of my life. And I did have undiagnosed ADHD. I don't think you have to have ADHD to really struggle with chronic disorganization, though. But if you could share like what that is, let's jump into that. Well, thanks. This is a big topic because it's an important topic because if we get back to this idea of household management and household labor, if somebody is chronically disorganized,

and she's female and she's got this cultural ideal, she's going to have that shame. So chronic disorganization is a term that was coined by a thought leader in our industry, Judith Colberg. And Judith and her cohort, her colleagues as organizers 30 years ago, they're going into homes and they're seeing types of clutter that they've just never seen, before. They don't see it in their own homes, and they just see lots of miles of piles and and paperclips and chotchkes everywhere. And what these women did is they coined this term

chronic disorganization to describe the chronic nature of our lives, the chronicness of the disorganization. And you're right, you don't need to be diagnosed with 80. You don't need to have ADHD to live in chronic disorganization, but the chances are very, very good that you have executive function challenges. And executive function challenges as a hallmark of chronic disorganization. It's a hallmark of ADHD. Executive function challenges can show up when you're undergoing major life transitions, marriage, death, birth, divorce, cancer, COVID. These things. things, even the most organized person, when that comes into their life, they could come off their game. They're just like off their game.

Any change, like you get a new job. Any change. Yes. Change. Transition. Transition. Big, marriage, death, birth, divorce, small, wake up, get dressed, walk the dog, go out the door, right? It's the micro transitions and the macro transitions. If you have these executive function challenges, which means that you have a hard time planning, sequencing, processing. You probably are really struggling with time, your relationship with time. And I point to my chest when I say that because when you have strong executive function skills, you have a good internal time clock. I can put something on my calendar a year from now, and I, I will make, I know that I can plan that far ahead.

Folks with executive function challenges have a hard time planning past the weekend. Plus the day sometimes. Yeah. I mean, and hearing you're catching up to your son's weekend away, it was probably on the calendar for a while. Oh, for sure. You, you, you shine at coming in at the last minute. You will have it together.

You will. I know that about you. And it's because. But everything's hectic and last minute. And I have to have alarms to remind me. I had to have three alarms to remind me about this podcast. And I knew, but then I forgot again. And I knew and I'd forget again.

Like I will forget within an hour. I'll know it and it's gone from my brain. Yeah. So. When there's the executive function challenges, there's probably going to be a lot of clutter. And to manage things at home, it's, you know, you take it out, you put it away. You open the mail in the same spot every day. You know, there are things that we want to try to habituate.

but if you have a real negative relationship with time, it's very hard to habituate. Timers work. Sometimes timers don't work. Sometimes you don't hear the timer. Or sometimes you just snooze it in your brain because you've got it so. Yes. Because one of the gifts of people with ADHD is they have the ability to really go in and focus. sometimes to the detriment of everything going on around them.

Yeah, for sure. I like won't eat or sleep or I could sit for 12 hours and code a website without even realizing it's been five minutes. Yeah, yeah. It's bad. So what's a real challenge for folks to live with that? My mom has ADHD and she was diagnosed much later in life. And at 88, every now and again, she'll call me and she'll say, Regina, you should see my desk. You'd be so proud.

Oh, good. I know. Yeah, let's talk about some strategies. Like I can share some strategies that really helped me. I didn't know I had ADHD until years after I got my house in order. here's the biggest things that work for me. Really, there's three things that changed my life and got help me get my home under control. And the first is I had to have way less stuff, like 80% less stuff because I can't make, I have too many things going on in my brain. I told you

about my morning. Like I can't also have stuff everywhere. I had to be ruthless. I had to fight like a warrior for my home. I had to get pissed off really mad. And like, I'm sick of picking this up. I'm sick of looking for this. I'm sick of moving this. I'm sick of my house being a mess. And I just started filling trash bags like a maniac for a year. And then I had like everyone's like, you can't put some down. Mom's going to throw it out. Yeah, I am because I'm not capable of managing. a ton of stuff. Like I can't. I had to ruthlessly declutter. So that was the first thing. The second thing is I had to rely on muscle memory to put things away. I am not a naturally tidy person. If I'm done with something, I set it down without even thinking about it. And I became blind to the mess until I saw it.

And then I would like, oh my gosh, everything's a mess. So I had to rely on muscle memory. And how I did this was I would set reminders throughout the day so stupid to do little five minute pickups. So I'm like five minute pickup. Oh, I got to. And I didn't want to. Oh, I got to tidy the bathroom. Oh, I got to tidy the bathroom. So I'd pick up my toothbrush and put it away. And I'd pick up my brush and put it away. And I'd pick up my makeup and put it away. But that movement of picking up, putting away, repeat, repeat, repeat. Now when I'm done with my toothbrush, I just are. automatically put it away. Nice.

I had to train my brain to have the muscle memory. So that was the second thing. And then the third thing I had to do was I had to be consistent with the three main things. I could not go to bed without doing the dishes. I could not go to bed without doing a quick tidy up, put things away. I could not go to bed without doing one load of laundry a day. I have three kids. If I don't do a load of laundry a day,

shit's getting bad. So those things like saved my freaking life because when my home got under control, I felt better about myself. And when I felt better about myself, I was approaching life from a positive state. And every other aspect improved. So I'm just ranting. I went on a whole thing. I'm real passionate about this. but do you also have strategies for tackling chronic organization or getting started if you're struggling like how you you don't I truly believe you don't have to be like well I suck at it I'll just live in filth that is not the reality I give you so much credit for figuring that part out the the letting go of what you don't need the need the need to develop muscle memory and you do what I call the 10-minute sweep. So at the end of the day,

it's either getting the dishes done, putting a load of laundry, you're probably doing all of this, the dishes, the laundry, but it's getting, it's getting ready for the next day is really what you're doing. You're getting ready for the next day. Yeah. So, yay, you. That was big. You know, you had to figure that out for your own mental well-being, mental health and well-being. So other strategies, those are great.

If you live alone and you keep getting backed up or if you're a single parent, then I would see, there's a couple things I would do. first I would make a list of all the like look at your week and what's typical of your week what happens in a week there's tasks that have to be done or that you want to do every week in your home write down that list of tasks then without filters without giving it much thought write down how long you think it takes you to do the task just brainstorm just let it rip and then start timing yourself on some of the tasks and just get a sense of your relationship with time because in order to you know one of the you you you said it took you a year to rid the clutter

so start timing yourself one of the things that one of the reasons why folks have a lot of clutter is because they often don't know how long it takes them to do anything and if you have clutter, you probably have lousy relationship with time. So for me, the best and first place to start is where are you in your relationship to time? So make a list of what gets done, write down how long you think it takes. If you believe it takes five minutes to take a shower, time it. You want to know, you want to figure out where you start getting backed up in your day. It's good. Yeah, I mean, I did this intuitively too. I love that you're saying that because I have a tendency to over and underestimate everything.

So when I first did this, I wrote down, I actually did this. I love that you put this. I thought like emptying the dishwasher was 15 minutes. Turns out it's three. I thought that, you know, putting away a load of laundry was a half an hour or an hour. out it's five minutes. So I was procrastinating things because I overestimated the things that really sucked. But I also underestimated how long it took me to get ready and how long it took me to get out the door. And so I was chronically late because I wasn't realistic with my time of how long it took me to get ready. Yeah. Well done. It's true. I mean, it's these, it's, I tell people, become a drone and hover above you and around you and just what the hell are you doing there. And if you live and again, if you're a single parent, another solution I have is to create a pod of

single parents and have one Costco run. It's good. Have somebody managing carpool. You know, we've got to connect with each other. on this because it's too much for one person to do it alone. And then if we're living with somebody and the house is chronically disorganized and neither person has strong executive functioning skills, I would make a list of all the tasks that each person does,

see where you can create a bit more equity in the chores list, And then instead of delegating to the person best suited for the job, consider taking on the art and practice of radical delegation. When we delegate, we delegate to the person best suited for the job. That's when we hire people in our paid workplace. We're hiring the person that does the right job. Radical delegation is delegating to get the work done. not because that work is done by someone who's best at it.

So it's coming to terms with, we have to get this done. Neither one of us wants to do it. So how do we get it done? Do we outsource? Do we trade off? Do we do it and go on YouTube to learn how to do it good enough? Yes. Again, what I hear in households is, what's that caught? Have you heard weaponized

incompetence? Yeah. Oh, God, I live with this. So you know what I mean? So when we're talking about strategies for chronic disorganization, it's often a household issue. So really behind enlisting the other adult and the other two-legged family members. members that can handle, you know, more responsibility. I got to take a second to thank today's podcast sponsor, HelloFresh. It is back to school time, which is crazy busy. So I'm so grateful that we have HelloFresh delivered to our house three times a week. This is America's number one meal kit.

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box for two months while the subscription is active. That's free kids meals just by going to Hellofresh.com slash clutterpod kids. Let's talk about what weaponized incompetence is. Just in case listeners don't know. Basically what that is is somebody claiming they don't know how to do something or they're not good at something in order to get out of doing it. So my husband does this sometimes. he's not usually but my middle daughter does this all the time i'll say can you clean the bathroom oh i'm not sure or she'll purposely kind of do a crappy job and leave the mirror all streaky and say i just don't know how to do that i didn't know i don't have any idea how to do that and then i'm like well it's more work to explain it to you and go step by step and you're going to do it badly anyways so that i do it over next time And this has got to be recognized because a lot of people do this.

They either claim ignorance, they don't know how, or they'll purposely do a crappy job so that they don't have to do it again. So, for the person who is traditionally doing the job and doing it well enough, or perfect, the person who is looking to shed some of the chore list, you want to come up with good enough as well. It's not a crappy job. It's good enough. Yeah. We have to dial back. Because again, we're going to see crappy job as a reflection on us ultimately. It's true. When the bathroom has streaky mirrors, I'm like, I can't have a house with streaky mirrors. what will people think of my mirrors?

And also, I don't want to look at streaky mirrors. I know. But I got to let go. I got to let go too. Yes. So it's, it's, it's a, it's, how do you integrate the desire for order, the knowledge that not everyone is good at the tasks? I mean, what is important going out as a family on the weekend and having fun?

or having one person correcting the not good enough of the other person. And then and then and then to, I don't know, can you demand? Can you, I mean, I don't know. Again, I'm not sure what happens when the other person in the household isn't aware of what's going on. I just don't get that. I mean, I'm a very solo person in my life. I have been married and I happen to have been married to a man for a very long time at one point in my life who was super attentive. I was a full-time grad student and so he was very much managing things at home.

There was not even really a discussion. So when I hear that it just doesn't happen the way I lived it, I'm just very curious about that. And when I heard about weaponized incompetence, I'm like, well, why wouldn't the, other adult want to be the best partner. If that's what it's going to take to be the best partner is take over all the laundry. I don't know why that would even be a question. So again, you know, when I talk about chronic disorganization, when I talk about ADHD and household management, most people don't live alone. So. And it's tough. So I want to, I see both sides of this because sometimes we get resentful.

And so we're talking about making a list of all the things that your husband does or your spouse or your kids and all the things you do. It's very easy for you to put more importance on the things that you do in your mind. And it's also like easy for us to overestimate the amount of time that like we spend doing something and underestimate the amount of time that other people spend. And then before you know it, now you're in a battle for who's doing more. And now you've got a checklist. You're doing this and I'm doing this.

And you're doing this. And you didn't do as much as I did. And that really creates like this resentment and animosity and relationships sometimes. Well, that's what you all have been doing. That's what you all have been doing. But I'm suggesting is make a list of everything that has to be done. Right. Even the mental stuff like planning the birthday part.

and buying the cards for the grandmother's anniversary. It's what we call the emotional labor life cycle. It's looking ahead, preemptively radically delegating. You know, there's always going to be this holiday. We're always going to have these birthdays. We're always going to have vacations. Again, it's not the tit for tat. I'm doing this.

It's looking at the body of work and then divide and conquer. and understand that you're going to take on roles that you're not good at, but you're going to do it, and so is your spouse. But what's the goal? The goal is family harmony. The goal is being able to find your shit when you need it, being able to walk out the door in a timely way. I mean, those are the goals for the entire family, not just you. Yeah. So it's not, it's not, it's not nitpicking. It's getting a hand. handle on what the hell it takes to run this place 24-7. And you might be, I think this is a good exercise to do to like, you might be surprised all the things you don't even realize that you're doing. And some of those things may be

things you don't need to do anymore. I'm talking like the mental, the mental too, the mental things that we do and the, in the worrying about all these little crap. When we brain dump everything, everything and leave this list out and as, because you're going to think of other things an hour from now, two days from now, a week from now, you know, leave the list out and really keep adding. And then you can evaluate, man, I am wasting time with things that don't matter. I love that I can consolidate some of these things to do them all at once. What can I really delegate because if I'm just thinking about I'm like vacuuming, mopping, dishes, I'm not going to think I got a menu plan and meal plan and plan the kids' snacks

and they're back to school shopping and all these things that kind of we don't think about in the moment that are always running around in our head. It's the invisible load. And one of the big challenges, I think, for those who recognize that there's an invisible load, I think one of the big challenges, especially in families, is how do you make the invisible visible? Yeah. Do you know what a great thing is? For me, what's really changed is like a chore list where I have, together as a family, we wrote down, okay, you pick, what are you going to do on Mondays? What are you going to do on Tuesdays? And then we put it on this digital chore list that we have. And now the choreless nags them not me. And they've agreed to these things.

They've agreed that these need to get done. They've agreed, yes, I'll do it. And now it's like, oh, the chickens come to roost or whatever. You know, it's Wednesday. I got to put all the laundry away or whatever chore that they had. But that took a lot of pressure off of me. And I'm like, I'm loving, loving, loving that. they're not always doing it but I'm like hey you didn't do your chores if you don't do your chores

I got to take away your screens but again I'm not nagging them the chore the boundary is if they don't do it they lose privileges but I'm not like the one having to every day think about what they have to do and then follow up with them that's great great strategy um how old are you kids 17 15 and 11 Yeah. So capable of big things. And here's something that we've recently done that is so crazy. So our 17 year old got her license or full license. My kids are always like, there's no food.

There's no food. Guess who's in charge of grocery shopping? My two oldest children, they go by themselves. I write a list. I give them my credit card. And it's like, dude, this is the budget you have for snacks. You pick. And I don't have to hear.

We have no food. What's for dinner? And also, I hate grocery shopping. Why aren't our kids capable of grocery shopping? This has been amazing. And they're so much more responsible. They're not wasting money and buying stupid things. They're actually like comparing prices and very aware of prices. And so I'm teaching them a life skill at the same time. But I took off. There's no, I'm like, I just threw this big thing at them and I was like, you got this. You just got your license. Cool. Go grocery shopping.

Bye. And it's working. You get the mom of the year award. But I let go. I did nothing except took something off my plate and tossed it over to them to like figure it out. Yeah. And figure it out. And they're like, you can meal plan too because what's on sale at the grocery store when you're

there. look, figure it out, you're in charge. Right. Yeah. And they're doing great. Yeah. Of course. Yeah.

So yeah. That's a great strategy. I'm also just a hot mess disaster in a million ways. But I think the biggest catalyst for me to like stop the self-hatred was the decluttering and the getting organized. Yeah. Yeah. change my life, which is why I'm doing what I'm doing. And you are helping people, you're changing their lives and you're seeing it, which is why you never went back and got another job.

Or a degree. Or another degree. Because this is such a life-changing thing. When we can get our home under control, it affects every single aspect of our lives from relationships, to finances, to time, and to self-worth. Well, and one of the things I really respect about what you've done is, and I don't know how you've done it, is that you have managed to really maintain the integrity of those missions, keeping clutter at bay, using your muscle memory,

dealing with the stuff at night so that you wake up to a clean kitchen, you know, those things. Somehow you have managed to maintain that way of life, which it takes a lot of work because you have to be hyper vigilant to get it going and then to maintain it. Now you just keep taking things off your plate. That's good. Yeah. I'm a work in progress, but I think I have this thing. I'm such a people pleaser. And I know that about myself. I don't know if you've heard of Gretchen Rubin, the four tendencies. This book changed my life. And learning that I was an obligor means that my motivation is to other people. Like I have to tie something to other people. So what I started doing was thinking about tomorrow me as a separate entity.

Thinking of tomorrow me is like my best friend that I don't want to burden. I don't want to make her life harder. That's rude to say, oh, I'll do it tomorrow. Because really, I'm just making my best friend do it tomorrow. Like I'm thinking of her as a separate being from myself made me like, I don't want to do. Oh, I wouldn't do that to a stranger. I wouldn't do that to my literal best friend. Why am I doing that to myself?

and this was a mindset shift that helped me stay consistent because I don't want to be rude and be mean and bully her by making her do my work that I don't want to do right now. And so I know that seems really silly. And if you're listening to this, maybe I don't know that won't work for you. But for me, that was a very helpful mindset shift to separate tomorrow from myself as a completely different human being and entity. think of her as my best friend. It helps me stay consistent on a daily basis. That is so far from silly. That's mindful. It's thoughtful. It's visionary. It works for you. I think of the little old lady

down the road, me. I think about how do I want to live when I'm 80? How do I want to live when I'm 80? how do I get Regina prepared for that? So again, it's visionary. It's thoughtful. It's, it's, it's thinking about Regina at 80, vibrant, healthy, strong, where do I want to live? So again, we, that's how we do self-care. Yeah. And what can you do today? To make 80-year-old Regina's life better. And to make sure she's set up for success. Exactly.

And every day you think that thought, every day. Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah. It's a different way of looking at life. Yay, us. We found a hack. It's a simple one.

It's just like continually thinking about ourselves a little bit different. Like in the third person? Is that what it is? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It works. Well, thank you. I think you're amazing and so inspiring. And you've got some great talks on YouTube that I was watching that I'm definitely going to link down below. But let my listeners know how they can follow you and how they can learn more about you and how you can help them really tackle chronic disorganization. Well, call me. I'll help you tackle it. Google me. I'm proof that nothing ever leaves the internet. And just go to a clearpath.com and find us there. And I'm going to put the link to all of your business website and everything down below. So make sure you check out Dr. Regina Lark. Thank you so

much, Regina, for joining me today. I loved this conversation. I think we need to talk. talk more about just the pressure that women have and how we can take some off of ourselves and how society needs to take some off of us too. Yeah, true. All right. What a pleasure this was. Thank you. And thank you so much for listening. I'll see you guys next time.