Clutterbug - Real-Life Hacks and Tips to Declutter, Organize and Clean your Home Fast - Hack Your Home: Netflix Star Jess Banks on Storage Hacks & Why Your House Isn't Designed for You | Clutterbug Episode #344

Episode Date: September 21, 2026

Looking for small space storage hacks and home organization ideas that actually make sense for how you live? In this episode, I sit down with Jess Banks — robotics engineer, furniture designer, and star of Netflix's Hack Your Home — to talk about why homes fail us, and the small, genius hacks that can fix it. Jess has an insane background — physics, robotics, running her own kinetic furniture company — and she brings all of it to how she thinks about storage and space. We get into why "messy" isn't actually a character flaw (it's just a mismatch between your brain and your space), how to design furniture and storage that flexes for visual vs. hidden organizers, and why she thinks almost every home is missing a few key pieces of smart storage. We also get into: ✨ Why homes are never really built for how any one person actually lives — and what to do about it ✨ The "touchpoint" method for deciding what deserves prime real estate vs. deep storage ✨ Jess's ADHD, her own visual-but-contained organizing style, and how she's "hacked" her own space to work with her brain instead of against it ✨ Why multi-purpose furniture (like a table that folds flat into the wall) might be the small-space answer we've all been missing ✨ Her surprisingly brilliant trick of using different scents to help her brain context-switch between creative, analytical, and admin work If you've ever felt like your clutter is somehow your fault, this conversation is a great reminder: it's not you, it's your storage. Follow Jess on Instagram @rockpaperrobot, and watch Hack Your Home on Netflix — I promise you'll be as obsessed as I am! Want to get organized? Learn 6-Step The Clutterbug Method: https://clutterbug.thinkific.com/courses/Clutterbug-Method You can find more Clutterbug content here: Main YouTube Channel: @Clutterbug Website: http://www.clutterbug.me TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clutterbug_me Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clutterbug_me/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Clutterbug.Me/ #clutterbug #podcast #JessBanks #Netflix #HackYourHome #storagesolutions #smallspace #spacedesign #inventors #furniture Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a YouTuber, one of my jobs and as a podcaster is to come up with titles that people want to click on. And a really popular thing people like to click on is hacks and hacking your home. And so sometimes you can see a lot of videos out there with these titles because it's clickbait. People want to click on it, except today it isn't clickbait because I'm actually interviewing the host of the TV show on Netflix, Hack Your Home. Amazing show. I'm completely addicted to it. The hacks are unreal. Usually when I watch something about hacks, it's not even a hack. It's how you act. It's like hang a hook on the wall. It's like, yeah, that's how it's, that's its purpose. That's its use. How is this, how is doing something that it's meant to do a hack? This show is different. It is actually hacking. And today,

we're going to talk about hacks you can do. Some of those might be actual uses and not real hacks, not the point. We'll also be talking to this incredible host of the show, hack your home. It will blow your mind. Jess Banks. Not only is Jess the host of this TV show, she is also an inventor, an entrepreneur, an engineer. She has two degrees from MIT, okay, in engineering and robotics. And she has another degree in physics. What? Super genius am I interviewing today? Just the coolest person ever. She also invents and has her own company where she designs furniture that will blow your mind. It's called rock paper robot. And she makes things that we all wish we had in our house. So excited to talk to Jess. I'm going to pick her brain. We're going to diagnose her style. She's going to share some

real-life hacks with us. But before we get into that, I want to challenge you to do some mini hacks in your home right now. The first hack that you can do is actually inspired by Jess, today's interviewer, because she said the favorite room that she has in her home is the bathroom. That is odd, but that's okay. You do you, Jess. But to set, Celebrate her. Let's think of some hacks that you can do in the bathroom. Just like always, you are not allowed to just listen and watch today's podcast. Get up, take action, bring me with you to the bathroom because we are going to make a difference today. Another thing that Jess said was that she thinks about everything in her home like as touch points or that things have fingerprints for how often you touch them. Go to your bathroom and think, What are the things that have the most fingerprints on them? Not literally, like your mirror. We're not cleaning.

We're thinking about objects. How often do you touch your hairbrush? Your toothbrush. The toilet paper. The toilet paper is probably touched the most. Do you have homes that are really easy to access for all the extra toilet paper for your hairbrush, for your hair products? Do you use hair products more than face cream or face cream more?

The things you touch the most should have that very. valuable real estate. Are you naturally leaving things out on the counter? Take a look right now in your bathroom or all your products all over the place. How can you hack your bathroom to still keep things visual and not change yourself? If you were a person who is not putting it away when you're done with it, if a way is in a drawer, can you find a basket right now? Or can you hang a hook and hang a little something right on the wall. Can you install a floating shelf? How can you hack your bathroom? So it is super ridiculously functional. And if you are listening to this and you're like, Kaz, I don't know, that's so stressful. Here's a hack you can do that will make an immediate

impact in your bathroom. It's fine, 21 things to leave. I know that's not actually a hack, but just bear with me, okay? Because once you've cleared out the extra stuff, everything will be revealed. You are going to have more clarity on what's important and what needs a home, and you'll have more space to create one of these cool homes. We're not buying stuff. We're not pausing this podcast to go on Amazon. Use what you have. Make your bathroom better right now. While you're working on your bathroom, it is time to meet Jess. And while you're listening to this interview, I want you to see if you're picking up the same thing I am, which is how in tune she is with home organization. Not only herself and how she organizes and has to adapt, but the fact that she recognizes,

everybody organizes differently, she just listen, okay, she had never heard of clutterbug. She didn't know anything about me or the styles, but listen to this genius talk about home organization, which made me feel so validated. Are you ready? Okay. Let's get into the interview with Jess Banks. Hello, Jess. Welcome to the Clutterbug podcast. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so excited, okay, because two things. One, you're a super genius. And I love just being in your presence. You just collect, I don't know, degrees like their Pokemon cards. I don't know. I have a lot of interests. So, and if, you know, I think passion will get you wherever. The degrees are not so important. It's really being passionate about. I feel like everybody else who went to MIT might disagree with you.

But I'm so impressed. But the other reason I'm so excited is I am obsessed with your show, hack your home. This is the coolest thing I've ever seen. And I'm going to say, and I know I can tell you're probably humble. Your co-hosts are wonderful, but you are the superhero of that show. It was really, really a totally, total, total team job. And also, yeah, I don't actually think anyone was a lead or anything. It was really, really important that we were very coherent as a group and not just the four hosts,

but everyone who was doing the builds, you know, other people were working. working on design stuff. It was a really big and amazing team. We couldn't have done it without them. For my listeners, if you have not heard of Hack Your Home, it is on Netflix. I had no idea that this level of show. This blows anything on HDTV out of the water. What an amazing show and we can watch it on Netflix. I was so inspired. I was so impressed with your ingenious ways of taking ordinary like furniture and ordinary objects like a closet and making it futuristic and amazing, but also work in small spaces. That was a huge part. I mean, it really is about working in the space, whatever space you have. Even huge homes have small spaces, right? We all

have the closet doesn't work, even if it's a wine cellar, right? You know, if you're fortunate to have a wine cellar, I certainly don't. But, you know, even, you know, even There are small spaces everywhere that can be made to function better for how people live. Well, I'm excited to have you here today because I want to pick your big, beautiful, genius brain for some hacks for my listeners that, yes, they probably can't engineer some cool countertop that opens up with a push of a button or a spiral spinny closet. But there are ways that we can hack our home for the things that homes just don't. come with. And this is one of my biggest pet peeves. And I, you have this amazing, you're like building furniture, so I know you feel me here in that sometimes our homes just don't feel like they are set up for the way we live our life. And we don't have places for like incoming paper. And we all have it,

flyers and bills. We don't have spots for our purse to go. That's an everyday item. The backpacks. Homes come with closets, sure, but that end kitchen cabinets, and that's where it ends. And then we are left to kind of have to, I don't know, like come up with solutions for everyday items. You have so much experience doing this, but let's talk about some ideas, some things you think homes are lacking, especially small space homes, and how can we make them more functional for everyday living? You cool with this? I'm putting you on the spot here. Yes, of course. And I think, you know, the underlying question here is that a home is like a box with a lot of little boxes inside of it, right, usually. So, and so no home is really built for everybody's function, right? Everybody lives differently. Every family, every dynamic group of people lives differently. So it's really important that you understand how you live and how you live. look at your own behaviors than to be able to adapt the home. So I don't think the home should be

expected necessarily to accommodate organization because there's no way. Everyone organizes differently. And so, and often I think the issue is it's, you know, that we don't understand our behaviors or we don't acknowledge our behaviors to see that, ah, maybe I am a messy person. I need to then hide mess. Like I'm not going to become not messy, right? Like that's a much heavier lift than putting a door on it, you know? So I think that's a big, you know, kind of the first principle is that the home isn't made to organize. So that's kind of how I approach things.

I love that you said that because I don't know if you're familiar with the clutterbug concept, but I was always a really chronically messy person. And like 17 years ago, I discovered while trying to not only get organized myself, but I started helping friends and family and then clients, that exactly what you said, organizing isn't one size fits all. And I kind of discovered, not that you could put everyone into four boxes, Jess, but it came down to if you're a really visual person or you prefer hidden storage. So there are almost half the population that is really visual. It's out of sight, out of mind. They need those visual cues to remember to pay the bills or they want to see their everyday items because it inspires them. And then the other half

want things hidden. And then the other component of that is how you naturally like analyze. And if you're detailed and if you're like kind of analytical and logical and you love lots of categories and your brain naturally breaks things down into smaller pieces or you're a person who's more of a big picture thinker. And sometimes big picture thinkers can be labeled as messy because they're not going to take the time to stop and put things in like bills in alphabetical order. And they're not going to take the time to sort in details. So the point is I call it clutter. bug. There's four different styles based on how if you're visual or hidden or if you're detailed and non-detailed. And I help people set up their home based on how they naturally put their

stuff down. So I'd love to diagnose you and then we'll talk about some hacks. But are you, do you prefer visual or hidden storage? And what I mean by that is, is the front of your fridge have all the reminders and photos and you love open bookcases? Or does that kind of stress you out? And you would rather everything tucked behind closed doors. So I have really, and I'm not going to say bad ADHD. I have really forceful ADHD. And so, which I, you know, I love the components that make me creative and help me analyze the world and do pattern recognition different than some other people do. It also has some things that are stereotypically related to order. So things like categorization in piles, for instance, and making those visual, right? The other part of it is that,

so I'm both an engineer and an artist. The engineer part of me is detail, detail, detail, narrow down, narrow down. The artist is kind of big picture. What's the interpretation? You know, no boundaries. Let me think outside of every box, right? So I go between, let me go into all the different tinier and tinier boxes to like let me be outside the box. I sort of ping pong in between these two mindsets all the time. So I would say that to answer your question, both are true. I need the reminders all of that. the time, but I also don't want to be reminded that I need those reminders. So I put a lot of different categories and things visually behind closed doors. And this was actually something when I was,

when I was studying in grad school, I used to have these bookshelves. And that's where I actually was diagnosed with ADHD when I was in grad school. So I had tons of bookshelves. They're brightly colored, random tools and books and everything. And I would, I realized like after like a week, every week, I would suddenly have a stack of books on my desk. I'm like, how did I, they were on the shelf. And it was because I'd see one. I also have extra peripheral vision, but that's another story. I would see one be like, oh, I love that. I have to remind myself, I'm going to do that thing. I have to read that part. And I put it on my desk. And then it was like, I was just transferring back and forth. So after a while, I had to just close off my bookshelves and be like, you know that on Fridays,

you'll go back and check. And if there's something really important there that you want, or I leave a little note on my desk, you know, on a running note. So, so. I love this. I'm not doing that. I love this. This is what I've realized recently. I just actually had a client who, the way that their brain naturally like organized, then they had ADHD. It was like, it was messing with the system, man. And so I love that you know yourself well enough. I have a feeling you're probably a B. That's a visual organizer when things are out of sight, out of mind.

But they love things to have a place. Like they're craving that. But then your ADHD's coming in like a steamroller. And it's like it's too distracting to have everything. And sometimes you're just caught up in probably a hyper-focused creativity moment where that doesn't work for you. But what matters is you know this about yourself and you've hacked your home to work for you. And that is what, you know, this podcast is all about helping people have the same level of self-awareness that you just naturally have because you're a super genius, Jess. So thank you for saying that. I think I'm just very interested in things.

Everyone watching, maybe they can't do as cool of things as you're doing when it comes to hacking their home, but they're looking at their home differently. And I think this is something we don't do. We kind of, we move into a home and we have whatever it comes with structurally. And then we just try to make our lives adapt to our home instead of thinking about how can we change our home to work. and mimic the way we are living in it naturally. And yeah, I was just so absolutely inspired. So for any of my listeners, I'm going to put the link down below. You have to check this out, plus all the other cool things that you're doing. But yeah, I'd love to talk to some to you about maybe some of your favorite hack ideas.

I have one. Okay. Can I just, please. I love the idea of having more shelving on the, the walls, like open storage, but I would love it to be able to be flexible for people who are visual or people who are hidden, or even on the days where you want to be visual versus hidden. And I first saw this, I'm not hip with the times, but I first saw this on HDTV, actually, with a, like it's called an appliance garage, which I know you know about, but all the appliances

on the kitchen counter and then the door opens and you can see all the appliances and use them. then the door comes down from some magical place, which I'm not sure where that is, and closes it and seals it all off. And imagine if we could have a wall of storage like in our living room behind the couch that could be open if we needed it to, or we could have like doors that come out and close. I think that there is not enough storage in homes for our everyday things, not only just Christmas decorations, but where do we put the kids' toys and the books and our craft supplies? And where do we put just all the little bibbitty bops? That would be my dream, that homes came with more storage, but storage that could be adapted to be visual or hidden just

with, like, the doors being shut. I'm going to put you on the spot. Do you have something that you wish homes came with or like a hack of people can do to add something to a home? So it really matters. So if we're talking about specifically, you know, all the bits and bobs, like I think, you know, what you were listing is kind of like random stuff. So there's two very important categories also that you just spoke to. One is immediately accessible stuff, kids toys, right? So they're in and out all the time. You don't know what they want to play with, things like that versus the holiday decorations, another whole entire category, which is once a year touch, right? So often I like to think about touch points, which is how often things are touched.

And to be able to say, okay, if this is something I don't need a lot of the time, I can put it somewhere that is a little, that's less accessible because you're still going to make the effort. Almost everybody does. Everyone makes the effort once a year to do the thing. You're already going to put it on the tree. You're already going to put, you know, things out in the yard. You're going to, you know, so that stuff can be a little bit harder and doesn't need to be in the same place as the constantly touched things. Or we can think of it instead of touch my fingerprints. You know, how many fingerprints are on these things. So I think that being able to first categorize in terms of fingerprints is a good way to start to know how much space you need.

need for things. So I am also a big fan for toys and things like that of just very big good looking containers that can be not stacked. So can't stand stacks. Hate stacking things. Don't work at all, like except for those things that you're going to just put the effort into. So because it just makes everything cumbersome and nobody likes to try to find, you know, go in and get the thing. Because even in a large bin, you don't have a list of every single thing on it. Right. So who wants to rummage around and bin after bin after bin and keep them on top of each other? It doesn't make sense. And people aren't, it's difficult to then think all the heavy stuff first, right? The brain doesn't look at a whole bunch of stuff and then figure out which stuff to put on the bottom. Right. So basically I think,

you know, I like a good looking big open topped container that then can slide in and out of things, right? It can slide in and out. So that to me is a very simple solution. I also find that this works well for people who have that chair covered with clothes, right? The laundry or whatever. So if you know that you have this in your house, either A, let's remove the chair because you're not using it anyway and put something there that's storage that's easy to throw into, right? And even if you just need to throw it, like have it be a mess in there until you are ready to then do the laundry, right? Have it be a mess in the thing. And, you know, it could be a big, tall container. It could be like, you know, whatever. And so, and doors, I think, are lovely in certain, in certain regards. It's, you know, it can be

harder to have them look pretty and not industrial sometimes. So having them just integrated. in the house is tougher. But I think it's very easy to be able to say, this cabinet is messy. Inside of it is a loud mess, right? There are bins in there, and they are messy until they're ready to be changed. You know, so I, you know, maybe you're a ladybug. You're speaking my ladybug language. That's what I call someone who like, you're just chuck it in a bin. I don't want to look at it. And it can be all jumbled, but at least every bin is separate. Like, it's got a category. That's ladybug love right there. That's what you're you're preaching. And it's important to not be like, it's important to be like, don't have badness associated. You don't have negativity associated with

your style. It doesn't matter. Okay. It doesn't matter. Messy is not bad. Messy is an organized, an organizational style that is different than structured. Okay. Messy structured. It's not good, bad, right? So I think that's also a very important thing to fully digest, right? If you have an organization problem, it's not that you have the problem. It's that your world is not designed to accommodate your style. Exactly. Oh, I 100% agree. Do you think that furniture should be made, well, I know you do because you make the coolest furniture ever. But that furniture, especially in small spaces, should be made with like multi-studies. Like it can do more than just one thing. This is one of my big pet peeves. When I go into someone's home, especially if they have a small space, and they have

end tables that have zero storage and a coffee table that just is a coffee table with zero storage. Or, yeah, just all of it. And I think, I realize it's a call. cost thing for sure. But is this something you're passionate about? And if you could think of a piece of furniture that could do multiple duties, what would be like your go-to that you would love to see everyone have? Sure. I do think not should but could. So furniture definitely could have multiple use cases and functions. And so one piece that we were working at my company is a table that pulled down from the wall so it could come out to any length and then store completely flat. Now, each of the slats of it, we didn't end up going into production, but then could be changed

out. So it could be, you know, we could print out, if you had it mounted on a brick wall, we could print out the bricks exactly as they were and then put them on the thing. So when it was up, it was camouflage, right? So now this table would be a dining table, fully a dining table, fully a dining table or it could just be a desk. The front of it could also just lift up just to be a small desk and go back down. And so, you know, it was always going to be surface material, you know, like providing the function of surface, but then how much surface would be the, you know, the real functionality then whatever you needed so that you felt like you could have all of, you could have people over and

then you could also have a workspace. Here's the other thing, which I will undo much of what I just said. It is very difficult to often for people to have a workspace that they want to then change frequently. Okay. And so that's why for that particular table, it was likely that most of the time it would be pulled out like halfway for four people or for have a bigger workspace and stay that way. So you could eat and work and do everything because cleaning up daily is a waste of time. I also think that if you are a creative person, do not clean up from your creative pursuits. Because the minute you do that, you will not start again.

Just the action potential of having to get back into that activity again, it can be harder to get over. So there's some things that should be unstructured or can be unstructured to help your process, right? And also, don't waste your time constantly cleaning. Your furniture should not mandate that you do that, right? Also, so you're nodding and nodding. I feel like we could probably talk forever about all the things. Interject, by the way. I love this because, yeah, when I go into somebody's home, here's what I see. So I am always trying to do things on a budget and try to just make things as practical as possible. And when I go into someone's home and they are and see this over and over again, especially during COVID because a lot of people were working from home,

their dining room table or their kitchen table became also their workspace. And it seems like natural, whether the kids are using it for homework, or you're doing it to pay bills, or you've started a puzzle or whatever it is. It's the flat surface and it's your workspace, except now you have to eat dinner. And so now there's this daily, I have to clear it off so that we can use it for another purpose. So when I have a client who I see this, immediately my goal is how can we create you a workspace in this space that isn't your table? Because exactly what you're saying, it would be great if the table could sometimes be a desk and then open up really big, but you'd still have to take your stuff off, which is not ideal. So I love the idea of you.

having a table that's on the wall that folds down for eating or for the workspace, but you can leave it there. Or even having like a cart that wheels out. I've taken a three-tiered cart and put like a big piece of wood on top and created a mobile workstation for people in the past. And that really works. But I don't think that's something that we intuitively as homeowners are thinking about. We're like dining rooms have tables. And I have no other place to work. So this is where I'm working. So I love, I love that your show and that you are kind of encouraging everyone to look at their space differently and not try to change themselves, but how can we change the space? What can we add? What can we, what can we move? How can we make a small change so that it

actually works so we're not working? The other thing too is sometimes if you, you can force certain behaviors upon yourself too. So if you make instead of a table, you have a large and oversized shelf that you could put a chair up to and that you think, okay, I'm going to just have my laptop and what a couple of things here every day or, you know, you can also do that. And if you, you know, like that can be a, that can be an okay table, right? And you can force yourself into a smaller footprint, right? So if you give yourself a smaller footprint that you say this is my workspace, you will do it. I personally love a big work table because I like it when I work, I like to be able to have the piles but contained in a space, right? But I tend to do a lot of things. So there's engineering

work, there's creative work, there's administrative work, all these different things. And I kind of like all of those little sections. You are saying, I don't know the details of being a type B, but if I, you know, I like them visually accessible to me, but I don't like to then have to have them constantly being in my, giving me visual clutter because that's distracting. So if I know that it's contained, I can also kind of think of it as a contained space and like let that be, that's, that's work. And then, you know, doesn't it just mentally sort of let it be somewhere else. Yeah, I love this. This is exactly what I would tell my. B clients to do too. And if they had a space that they couldn't just have it be separate,

maybe they don't have a home office, I really like shallow project boxes. And so that way they could have it all spread because we call them the spreaders, bees. They like to have piles, but the piles spread out so that they can see everything, but also, yeah, have it contained. But then they could stack those project boxes afterwards. So it's still sorted, but they don't have to look at it. So perhaps they do have to work in a space that could also be a living room. People have small spaces and they have families. Exactly what you're saying, but like ways that we can adapt. This is so exciting. Is there one space? I know you recently moved. I do. Is there a space you're struggling with in your new space that kind of isn't matching your style? And do you have a plan to hack it?

So nothing matches the style in the new space that I'm currently inhabiting. Nothing matches my style. So there is some renovation that will happen. You know, some around organization, a lot around also the aesthetic. And I think that also you can lead, you can lead if you have a magical space that feels like very, you know, I love bathrooms, okay? I love, love bathrooms. And so, you know, if you can make a bathroom be a dream space for you, you will also be inspired to, like, you know, decorate it in ways that keep it, you know, if it's minimal that you want it, you know, whatever. And so there are ways that you can add decor that helps a lot. You know, like the fact that I don't like toothbrushes out, you know, like I just, you know, but that's something,

you know, so are there like special holders if you don't have a medicine cabinet, right? Things that you can do to like kind of mitigate that clutter. I also think that to your point, the shallow like boxes, I actually, my piles, and so I'm a little off topic, but because the answer was everything, but my pile. files also tend to be one sheet deep, right? So this is something that I've recently realized. This is a little mental hack, which is that I need to remember to do each of these things, but really in life, are they all the same priority? So if you can prioritize, you know, them in order, and you know this is the high priority box, you know, the top, do that. And then maybe

a corollary or in addition to the physical, a digital organization, which is a reminder, deal with top of box on your calendar every day at like 8 a.m. And so you know it's there. It can make you feel better because it's in your calendar. You're not going to forget about it. And then you have the place where it is physically. So I think there's ways to also balance the physical and the digital so that you can appease the anxiety that comes from. because if we're visual and we're spreading out, there's anxiety around forgetting. And so if you can appease that anxiety, then you can mitigate what happens in the analog world. Yeah, you're so right.

Visual organizers, I do feel for them. So I'm a hidden organizer, which I feel like is easier. There, I said what I said, because a visual organizer has this real struggle of they have to see, they want to see. There's an anxiety with what if I forget, but also when everything's visual, nothing's visual. It can feel like clutter and you're overwhelmed. So you have to constantly walk this line of how do I keep things visual? How do I remember? But how do I keep it from being too visual and overstimulating? Just like you said with your bookcase, ideal, you would see it, you would be inspired. but when you have to work on something, you don't want to be inspired and distracted and feeling

energized by your stuff. You're like, I got to be in the zone. Can you pause for a second? Again, having that self-awareness, though, is so beautiful because now we have problems to solve when we don't know what the actual problem is and we can't verbalize it and we don't have that real understanding. We're just like, I'm messy and things are messy and my life isn't going well. But when we can peel back those layers and really analyze what's going on, we can think of ways to hack our home. We can think of ways to solve the problem. Right. And, you know, I think underneath everything, it is, I think, really solving yourself, right?

So first hack yourself, like, you know, look at the situation, try to not even hack, but just be able to assess what is going on. And also think about, like, were your parents messy? Did you grow up in a messy house? Did you learn patterns from your parents that you're either rebelling against now or you're adopting, right? And so this is another kind of interesting lens to then also have compassion for yourself and your styles and realize, ah, I just learn these things. It's like a lesson that, you know, it's a history lesson. I just happen to be able to, I'm just enacting it.

So that can be really informative as well. How are you with decluttering? Because for a second there, I was like, maybe she's a ladybug. No, I think you're a bee that just has like so much self-awareness and you're understanding like, I have to adapt in order to like make my life easier. It's so brilliant. I'm very impressed. But I will say most bees that I meet struggle to de facto. clutter because a visual person tends to have more maybe emotional attachment to things,

because when they see it, it triggers not only like this cue to remember something, but also they just for some reason have more emotional attachment. And then that logical thinker, sometimes perfectionism, they also have a million ideas of what they could do with that thing or what it could be or how much it costs or my great aunt gave that to me. And then their overthinking brain stop. And so declassing. And so declassive. Luttering, letting go is so hard. You, my genius friend, have buckets of self-awareness, so maybe you found a way to kind of hack the struggle that most bees have with decluttering.

But my point is, how are you with letting go? I'm better than I think and worse than I think. So I just had a move, right? And I realized that there was a funny predicament that I was in, which was there was a minimum that you pay it because I was moving long distance. I had to pay a certain amount. But I decided I'm not bringing all the heavy furniture. I just don't want it.

I want to start over. It wasn't stuff I loved, right? So that actually was kind of an easy decision. I looked around and I thought, would I rather have a different piece? If the answer was yes, then I left it. Okay? And then because I knew the person who was taking over my apartment. And so I was like, would I rather, if I had all the resources, have a different piece?

Yes, leave it. So now that was interesting because it also left me with a lack of things on the other side and storage things. But I also, you know, so that was like how I could, I decluttered in a big way. Small things then I was having an issue with because I was like, I'm not bringing enough to even, you know, like, validate the price that I'm paying. So now I need to fill my boxes with stuff that I might not necessarily want to bring. And so I felt this very helpably, the exact thing you're talking about, which is like the desire to declutter, but also like some logistic need to keep it, not even sentimental. Like it was literally like, it's a waste of money if I don't put more

boxes. And I was like, I hate this feeling, right? So, I can be extremely good at decluttering. The opposite of that is I like to do art projects that are collections of many things. And so I will have 500 alt-oids boxes that I can't seem to let go up. Or I will have, you know, and I also like heavy. I like to collect and work with things that are somehow cast iron and heavy, right? And so I'm like I will have a lot of heavy like components or like antique claw wheels, right, or things like this where I just can't let go of. And so sometimes those things that I haven't used in a long time.

But as you said, you know, what can I do with this? I don't even know yet the potential that will be unleashed, you know, about having those things. So I'm good and bad. So I can do, that's the answer. When it comes to like little crappy things, though, I've realized that if I don't touch something and like someday I need it, there's like some little things if you can if you can compress it and put it in somewhere and like for that I needed it moment. But like I stopped collecting empty boxes.

I stopped keeping a lot of jars. Okay. That was a big, that was a big hurdle for me. So, you know, that is the, that is the most B thing you've ever said, because what I've found is that organizing style. They're always, they're like use up the margarine or, you know, the sour cream and like that container, I could. Right. This pickle jar, it's a nice, yeah, in a good empty box because you're practical. That's the reality and because you're creative and because you see potential in everything.

So it feels wasteful to let go. I was thinking to myself and entertaining myself, thinking about your movers. Here they are. They're showing up this company. And they're like, there isn't a bed or a sofa we're moving. But we have boxes and boxes of empty altoid boxes or whatever. Right. Of course, because I labeled them, right?

Altoy, altoyes, altoids. They're like, you have a lot of mints. And I was like, it's not your problem. And they're empty, right there. There's no place to sit down. but I have a lot of mint. I could fashion a chair out of these. That was the intention.

So, yeah. So there's a lot of that. And I did have to part with a lot of other things. The other thing that was really hard to part with when I moved my studio was prototypes. And so there's so many categories when we talk about like the things we keep. For me, seeing my process and remembering every different layer of

until I got to a final. product, which never feels final, was very difficult, right? And I, because often I don't necessarily take the time to document every step of a process because you're in it, right? I'm like prototyping. I'm thinking this. And it was hard to give up those parts. But then I realized, you know what? I learned what I did. My body took in what I needed to know then. And if I'm ever in that exact same situation again, which never is going to happen. But I have some knowledge, right? So, and I know what the final ended up to be. And that's really the important part. I will always have process. I am a process. So that was another big internalization that I had to,

or a big thing I had to internalize. I love this. So for my bees listening, when you come across something, and it is, what's happening is you see it and you're like, Now you have the memory. So it's like triggering the memory because and you sometimes visual organizers tend to forget until they see. And that's just part of being a visual organizer. So it's like, oh, I don't want to lose that again. I don't want to lose that memory. So then there's this feeling of I better hold on to everything. Yes. With because the fear of forgetting. So I love that you're saying that. You've just like, I still, it's in there. The process is learned. I don't need everything. physical piece to be that memory as well. And you have the finished, which isn't finished in your brain product. Also, as that visual cue for the to remind you of the whole process. Sometimes if you're listening, B's, I think just grabbing a notebook is really handy. The act of writing down our thoughts when we have that anxiety about what if I forget this special moment or taking a picture of the item. It sounds silly. And I know it's like, we hear this all the time, Cass. But it really,

does work to lessen the anxiety and to kind of rationalize with yourself and let go. Because you could have all the hacks in the world, but if you have too much stuff, your home will never work. Right. And I really love that notion of taking a picture of something. Here's the second part of that. Put it in a folder that's called something that means is meaningful. Like organize that.

Okay. So in that one moment, put it into memories, memories of my mom. memories of my childhood or useful things like in a folder that says that, right? And so being able to then just take that second to organize it there will then give you so much relief because it's not just in, now it's not just in your like chaos of the camera role, right? It's in a place. So don't create more chaos, you know, do it and then put it somewhere. And so that that is a great, I think, very helpful way for me to relieve anxiety around objects that I might want to feel compelled to hold on to. That's so good. And that leads me to another thing that I've found is so, this was so

helpful for me, but so many other people. The whole B character for me. Like we, oh, you want me to tell me. Yeah. Okay. So a B is a really visual organizer. They, um, they use like things as visual cue. So being a visual organizer means when you see something, it triggers memories and it triggers emotion and it triggers all sorts of things. And you feel inspired by seeing things. It doesn't mean you like clutter. It means that that's exactly what it is, a visual cue. But they're also people who think in compartments. I don't know how else to describe that. So I call it like a detailed thinker. Their brain does naturally break things down into steps, into categories, and that's just how their kind of brain works. You have ADHD, so you have

chaos, but I feel like there's order underneath. You got like the B order and then the ADHD chaos on top. And so as a B, a visual organizer who's also detailed, it's very hard to let go because you have the emotional trigger of seeing things and that visual, like, it's bringing back memories and it's inspiring you and it's giving you all this good stuff. But then you also have that detailed brain, which tends to overthink. Well, I could turn this into a beautiful chair. I definitely could take that and do this with it or the overthinking when it comes to perfection paralysis, which is, what if I regret this? What if I can't afford to buy this again? What if someone judges me for letting this go? What if this ends up in a landfill and it has some sort of lithium battery that

leaks and destroys the environment. And I am the sole cause of climate change. Right. Yeah. So that's kind of the struggles for a bee. And I would say 25% of the population, you can kind of break all of the styles up pretty evenly are actually bees. And so a home is not designed for this. You have a closet with one bar. You have kitchen cabinets that are closed. You throw in a kitchen table in a sofa and a TV and you're like, you're good, except you're not. Because bees tend to be collectors, too. They tend to have things that are special to them. And where do you put that?

And it usually ends up on surfaces or it ends up at a spare bedroom or it ends up in neat little piles all over till you can find a way to organize it perfectly. And fast forward 20 years from now. And you feel like the clutter has stopped you from living your best life. And that's, and that's really sad. Yeah. And so I actually think that if you are really struggling one first hack you can do is pick a closet, a big closet, and anything just that you don't want out goes in there. At some point, that closet will become too full and you will have to manage it. But until it's the problem, if you can spare a closet or a cupboard or something, do that.

And just let that be the thing. let that be whatever you keep in there. That's where you put the stuff that feels like in the ambiguous, you know, realm of stuff I feel like I need, but I don't need. So like, you know, and that's a first hack, which is like, and then there's tons of closets. Just choose one and dedicate it, you know, so that that's something that you can allow yourself to do. And also know that, like, if you're the kind of person that's inspired by seeing things, you will always be that person.

You can go out into the world and look at anything and become inspired. That is who you are. And so like own it that you will be able to do that with any object. So when I did start my little organizing business, helping friends and family and then I had clients, I thought a marketing strategy would be if it doesn't stay organized for 30 days, I'll come back and organize it for free. But then people were like it's not organized. and I had to keep going back and organizing, and I was too cheap to buy new marketing materials.

So I had to kind of analyze and look for patterns of why. Why does this work for Susan, but not Joyce? Why does this work for this family and not this family? And that's where the four organizing styles came from. And when I could evaluate and diagnose their style and set up a system for how their brain worked, they didn't call me back. And that's when I knew I was on to something. But you said, Also, that everyone doesn't organize the same way and it isn't one size fits all. How did you come about, probably because you're a genius, but how did you come up with this, you know, all on your own? You know, I think I like to watch behavior.

And for me, there's this, the constant tie between the function that we want in the world and the aesthetics that we feel that inspire the function and vice versa, right? So there's this big interplay between how we act in the world and how the world causes us to act. And so I think maybe I just understood this as a general life principle, but it wasn't really until I started thinking about the show that I realized that there are different organizational principles. And that like I didn't, I just didn't even think that like organization was, an act necessarily, you know, that people could refine around. I just thought organization is putting things organized. But then I realized, no, the reason that that is something that happens

is because everyone has an approach to stuff different. We, you know, we have different emotional attachments. We have different styles of reminding. We have different work styles, all of this, and then realize that, oh, there were some things in my life that I could do to help me understand and make my life more efficient. I like, I'm a big efficiency person. So, you know, how do I minimize the friction of moving through the world and being able to access stuff? Because that's another thing. If you want to use something, but there's so much friction then and the thing that you kept, it's, you know, you're not going to do that. that either. So how do I create efficiencies all over my life? One thing I actually did,

which I realized was in terms of my thought process, was I started to use these, there's a company it's called Demeter or Demeter fragrances. And they have like tons of fragrances, everything from like dirt to mojito to rain a little, you know, that's kind of I guess up to what you think rain smells like. but like, so, you know, all kinds, hundreds. And I started to realize that I could use these scents to help me context switch. So if I needed to do engineering work, I could use very, I was very grounded smells, like earthy smells. And blue sky thinking was very watery smells. And then creative thinking was very sweet.

And so I realized that, ah, my brain is responding to these inputs in a way that helps me. be able to think differently. So I think there's a corollary to that, which is then that, you know, there are whatever we need to do to input a reminders in our life or structure or something can help us to be able to context switch into these different modes. And that happens then in when you have organizational principles. This is so smart. Now I want to steal this idea from you and make a whole video about it because I was watching a video about this woman who said she wears a different perfume based on what she wants to. So she has like a bedtime perfume that signals to her brain. It's time to get sleepy. And when she wants to have like an energized day, she wears a certain

scent and that it helps her brain switch into that mode. This, I mean, this is so smart. I'm just, my brain's going a mile a minute. As soon as I smell pine saw, I'm about to start scrubbing something. I think you're really onto something that not, like, using all of our senses to trigger our brain in different ways. That's just another layer. So clever. Thank you. I mean, that was just very helpful.

I realized, you know. What about this? What about this, Jess? What about the door from the garage? So you go in the garage and there's this little seeky door that you put in the grocery bags and that's the pantry. That could be an interesting, however, you know, there's weight. What are you bringing in? Every single thing, you know, is different size and shape and weight and things like that.

So I actually think if there is one thing, it would be a tall, skinny closet for like, that that has something to pull out so that you. you could put in like brooms and things like that because I can't stand having to put them you know in on hooks and stuff like that I would like a tall skinny closet with a pull-out holder for very slim things oh there's one more thing pantries I think should be slim so like the you know a six inch pantry because one of my big pet peeves is is things that get stacked behind them Because you're visual. Because you're visual. You waste food.

Thanks a lot. Okay. We're going to categorize me. So love that. Actually, a little side. There's this thing called the eneogram. Okay, I'm not. And this is going to sound like extremely unconventional, which this is a point in the story.

Like, I don't look at my birth sign. I'm not into astrology or any of this. But this enneagram, at one point, a boyfriend was like, oh, we got to figure out what enneagram number you are. And I was like, no way, I can't be categorized. No way. He's like, take this two question test. And I was like, this is BS. Like, I don't, whatever, I'll just do it.

And I did it and I read it. And then the enneagram, I think it was a five. And it was like, you don't like to be categorized. And I was like, stop of it. You know? I was like, don't know that. You know? And you are, you know, it's very meta.

So anyway. I love it. Yeah. So that makes sense where you're like, don't put me in a box. Yeah. But then I know that that's the box you're in. But I'm not like, yeah, I'm not like a unicorn. So I probably, there's a box out there that I do.

Well, I love it. And I totally, I love your idea of having a broom because there are, I would say 90% of the homes that I go to, there's always a vacuum in the living room. Because where, where, where does. you why are we running to the basement or if we don't have a like why isn't there a spot to just charge our vacuum right and have our boobs and mops or just flimmer like i do not i'm not a fan of deep storage just not a fan of deep storage um and also i can't stand if you have a corner storage and it doesn't rotate or come out easily no no just full no i can i can agree with that okay this was

amazing. I thank you so, so much for joining the Clutterbug podcast. I'm just so impressed by you. And everyone has to watch your show because it is 10 out of 10. I watched it. I was watching it this morning. We're getting ready and I'm hooked. Okay? It's my new favorite show ever. And I'm going to put a link to that show on Netflix. Hack your home. I'm going to put a link to your store. It's called Rock Paper Robot. Yep. RepRopator Robot, yep. So good. And is there anywhere else that you would like people to follow you? I mean, I'm not big on social media, but I will, you know, I'm starting to get more into it. So I have rock paper robot as my Instagram handle. That's where I can post things occasionally and rarely. I love it. I was watching your show last night with my husband. He is also an engineer, but not the cool kind. He did robotics, but he didn't use it to make anything neat and amazing in my house. And I was watching it. And I was like, why can't you be that kind of engineer?

Why can't you be that kind of engineer? So I'm hoping he can make me some sort of rising. I don't know. I'll keep you guys posted if he copies some of your incredible ideas and engineers some stuff in my home. Thank you again so much. It was an absolute pleasure. I hope to have you back. We can talk more about ways we can hack our home. I would love to. Thank you so much for having me. really fun. I have to take a second to thank today's podcast sponsor, 1-800-Got Junk. I always say if I could go back in time, the one thing I would do differently is hiring a dumpster right from the start and just getting rid of clutter. And now you can do exactly that. When you call 1-800 Got Junk or go to their website, you can get a free quote, have people come to your home and just point, point at all

the things in your garage or your attic, and they will get rid of it for you. Go to W.com. www.1-800 gotjunk.com or call 1-800-468-58-6-5. If you have stuff in your attic or garage that's haunting you, what are you waiting for? Get 1-800 Got Junk to come and help you. And you are left with a clutter-free space. I wish I would have done this right from the start. And now you have a chance you can book your free in-person quote right now. Go to 1-800 gotjunk.com or call 1-800-Hoddjunk.com or call 1-8-H0.8-H0.5. 400, 468-58-5-865 for your free in-person quote today. I loved the crap out of that interview so much, not only because I find Jess very interesting. I just love brainiac people, but man, do I feel validated?

Because she has a double degree from MIT. She is a robotics engineer and a physicist, and she also recognized that organization is not one-size-fits-all. She even really intuitively got the visual and the hidden and the detailed and the non-detailed, all of it. And if that's super genius and I agree, I'm feeling, does that make me smart by proxy? I don't know. I think maybe it does. I maybe have a grade 10 education and I'm a dropout. But basically also could be an engineer, apparently.

No, but I found that very cool. The other thing I found really interesting about that interview is how listening to Jess talk about how she definitely had like these B tendencies. She even talked about spreading. She only has a one paper high rule, right? So that everything's really visual and she can see. But she also defaults to some ladybug when she knows she's feeling overstimulated or doesn't want her stuff to cue her brain.

And I think this is so clever because for you visual organizers, whether you're a bee or a butterfly listening, I hope maybe that resonated with you because that's something that I haven't really thought of before. I'm just like you're either visual or you're hidden. But there probably are times that you need to turn off your visualness, visual organizers, where you need to be able to adapt so that you don't feel like, yes, it stimulates you and yes, it's a cue to do things. And yes, it makes you feel energized and yes, it reminds you of all the cool things, but maybe you don't want to be distracted by your stuff sometimes. So I think Jess really had this self-awareness of how she could still be a visual organizer, but know what parts of her home to turn off, if that makes sense. I thought that was super clever. And I hope listening, you took something away from that, especially visual organizers, like, yeah, maybe I, even though I'm visual, I don't want everything. visual and what can I hide to tuck away so that only the most important things are still giving me that cue.

Let's do a fun little segment that I like to call, oh, hell, no, this is where I rant for 60 seconds about something that's really bothering me, so basically I don't have to pay for a therapist. I can treat you like a therapist and I can just get it off my chest in 60 seconds and feel better. Are you ready? Why are we always in the rush for the next thing, especially seasons, okay? It is like, yes, technically fall, I guess, is coming. But back in August, there was Halloween decorations.

My tomatoes aren't even ripe on the vine. And yet we're moving on to the next thing. And in fact, the home store, I went to Home Depot, and there was freaking Christmas trees. Can we not just enjoy today? This is not just about seasons and like the stores. First of all, it's still summer. Good luck finding a bathing suit because freaking fall is everything. which is ridiculous, by the way. Why are we always three steps ahead? There's this pressure to

like run and it's next and what's coming next. And I feel like the stores perpetuate this in some disgusting way. And we all feel this way. But like let's look at other spots in our lives where we're just rushing to the next moment. No, let's collectively just pause. I feel a bit better. Sorry, that. Okay, let me know how it went today. Did you take action? Are you feeling better? Did you address some things that you touch all the time? And hopefully you were able to maybe rezone or create a little organizing system or at the very least declutter things to make finding and putting things away a little bit easier. Let me know in the comments below what your favorite part of this podcast was. And I also always curious your organizing style if you know. And also, if there was one

thing that you wish homes had. Okay? Please let me know in the comments below because maybe a home builder will stumble upon this podcast and start taking our advice. Let me know in the comments below. I'm still voting for the little door that goes right to the pantry so I don't have to bring the groceries all the way through the house. So annoying. Okay, that is all. Thank you guys. I'm so proud of you. Hope you're proud of yourself and I'll see you guys next time.